les: still around?
almost finished with the new blast cabinet :)
put photos of the thing on my site
tommrow ill add in the vacume unit stuff and mount the lights
* rayh is away: I'm busy
* rayh is back (gone 00:10:36)
tap, tap, ....... yes it seems to be on..... duh.... Hi Ray!
What you tapping on steve, the box or the operator.
the microphone.... checking to see if it was dead
IRC seems to go dead on me... silently....then I try to send and it says disconnected
I've had a few times like that only don't get any response.
are we any closer to setting a date for EMC coders meeting?
Mornin, John. Recover from our discussion yesterday?
rayh is now known as rayh_
I'll try again, are we any closer to have a date for the EMC programmers meeting?
Don't know what's going on with IRC but John wrote. "Also, I heard from Fred this morning. He has reserved a room
for us from Monday 4/25 thru Thurs 4/28... So the date is now
sorry guys, was away for a bit
yep, the dates are official
should I put them on the web site?
this is a limited attendence event
I dunno how we want to publicize it
I still haven't written up an agenda
perhaps it could be listed with a stipulation that there are a limited number of slots with active coders having priority
lemme take a look at the linuxcnc page for a minute
maybe the "upcoming events" part of the "news/history" page should be moved to the top of that page (above the 04 election results)
and the fest added there
(actually a link to a page dedicated to the fest
actually, the upcoming events item needs updated, cabin fever is over now
(how did that go, BTW?)
Interest in CNC is building year by year. We had 4 demo machines this year. Thalx was running a Sherline with EMC from RC46. He was cutting a oval shaped "plunging spiral" pocket into a piece of aluminum as a demo of doing things that would be impossible manually.
Tom Hubin also ran a Sherline from TurboCNC making optics parts and John Guenther ran a 7" mini-lathe making writing pen parts.
I didn't actually run my machine, too busy answering questions, so it just made the motions in air to cut a gear blank.
Roland Friestad is working on a outline of the events for the integration session at his shop.
I think we should have a page for each event, linked from the "history/news/events" page
the details of each page to be revised as we learn mode
I'd like to see some of the guys who recently posted about operator panels show up and work on these.
i got my mill running now
although not working as I want it to yet
trying to find out how to reverse my dir pins..
reverse the pins? you mean change from active high to active lo, or change which signals are on which pins?
JMK - stub page now exists, all yours
just thought of something... the history page has a link to the board election info
when should we have the next election?
should the term be exactly 1 year (which would work out to august) or should it run from NAMES to NAMES (or something like that)?
1 August 2005 ? After NAMES, Roland's show, and the programmers fest
sounds reasonable - have the existing board handle the major events, then turn over to a new board and give them plenty of time to get ready for the next years events
I'll post something on the board list to start discussion
Sounds good to me.
Matt's term will run a bit longer than a year but ....
Matt's term has run for many years ;-)
hello SWPadnos, welcome
Thanks. Looks like I found a good time!
yep - regular meetings on Sunday
That's what I thought I remembered :)
hey, the gang's all here!
I saw a few posts on the CADCAMDRO yahoo group about porting Mach2 to Linux. I had to bust up laughing about that.
fortunately Jon Elson straightened things out a bit
wot. They want the mach2's graphical interface?
I had mentioned EMC and AXIS, but I'm not sure anyone noticed.
mcuh going on?
I have something that I would like to bring up, that I hope doesn't piss too many off
I think that we spend a lot of time spinning wheels over setting up real time linux
fire away ... it probably will, but im sure we'll cope.
Steve Stallings runs to get hip boots....
* robin_z nods
(better to be pissed off than pissed on)
maybe more time on that than the actual control of machines with the application
while we have a BDI available
I'm all eyes.
that makes it pretty easy to get it up and running
Sorry, but it seems like it's kind of derailing things in some ways
to have to go over the install over and over again
that could be solved very simply
the current BDI is debian based
just publish the rt kernel .debs
maybe rpms as well
work in underway in that very direction
yes, I love the deb based system
I guess what I'm asking is: how do we direct the questions from the outside in a constructive way?
you mean like these debian packages? http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bdi-emc/debian/
like: I want to set up EMC on gentoo...
while the main application needs to continue on
danfalck: tell em its not supported, but might well work, when they get it built they can publish a package
that would work
jepler: is thatyour local repository?
robin_z: no, I think it's paul's
I suspect that we will always have to insist on a Debian (or other) distribution as the base. Likewise Mach2 requires W2K or XP.
he mentioned it in this mailing list post:
Subject: [Emc-users] New emc package
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 13:22:13 +0000
I've never actually used the packages
it needs to be set up on sourceforge I think
or at least linked to
I gont the RT kernel installed pretty easily on Gentoo.
A FAQ would be pretty straightforward to write
linuxcnc.org could host FAQs or HOWTOs for different distributions, if people want to write them
I think it's mostly the same for any distribution - IF you direct people to compile their own kernels.
FAQ would be a great thing to have, but even there we sometimes have internal disagreements about how to support people who insist on rolling their own.
danfalck: personally, I think .debs are the way to go. id drop the BDI stuff. just publish the .debs, tell people to do a debian network install and then add the single source line to apt/sources.conf and type apt-get install emc
robin_z: I think bdi-live has a place for people who use windows but want free CNC software
We need to be able to support people who do not have the skills to compile their own kernel. I think the best way is to insist that they use the "approved" distribution.
a bdi-that-you-install, less so
danfalck: a lot of time and effort goes into the BDI, but really, its a problem thats solved a million ways by other people.
that's what I'd like to see. Insist on it to minimize the impact on the rest of development
SteveStallings: suits me. debian seems to be the way forward to me, fedora has far too short a lifecycle
Sure - there are two types of people to support - those that will use a BDI install, and those that want to use their favorite distro.
As someone mentioned on the list, if you have a favorite distro, then you probably know how to compile a kernel
we do need a way to install on a machine without a net connection
dave_e: you must have a connection (or a friend with one) to get the files. Once someone has the correct files, they can be burned to CD.
We cannot afford to constantly devert valuable developer time to solve install problems on alternate distrubitions. Let them form a sub-group to solve problems.
dave-e: wel, heave them do a CD based disc install ,a dn then just add the emc .debs
SteveStallings: lets call it "emc-users" and allow developers to conecentrate on development in a seperate group, lets call that "emc-dev"
gotta go, lunch with wife...
apt and dpkg also have the ability to use a local directory as a deb repository.
yep, apt-get is great!
dave-e: my point is, installers for debian exist a plenty, disc based, net based, mix and match, just let the user choose and use one, then add our stuff
SteveStallings: Exactly - so a FAQ will point knowledgeable people in the right direction, and that's the extent of developere support for them. The BDI is supported more fully.
as long as I can transport on a cd I'm fine
except if I have to compile,
users shouldnt have to compile
I've not gotten a usable driver to the vital board yet dispite clean compiles
* robin_z scratches 'buy a vital board' from his to-do list
the same software compiled on Ray's machine and dist as a bin works better
Early adopters like Dave will always need to compile or have a friend in the compile community.
you're a developer then :)
not a developer, just slightly teched
well, the .debs have great dependency tracking
There is a neitherworld between user and developer.
(beta-tester :) )
if we get the dependency tree right, the emc-dev pseudo package should make sure your debian has all the right bits of the toolchain, the right compiler, tk libs tcl libs etc etc
The trick is to find a developer that WILL produce experimental debs for these folk.
neitherworld is filled with those evil implementers 8-)
robin..don't get me wrong ... I think the vital board has great potential
Or teach these early adopters to compile for themselves.
IMO, the issue with these pci based boards is timing between pci and the fpga they use and emc.
wish I could prove that
dave-e: yeah, im sure it does. but I cant spend money on non-working kit right now
just hang in there and wait awhile
In an ISA the signals were all subservient to the EMC running.
actually, that answers another question for me. sadly in a negative way.
In the fpga the loops are often programmed to run independent.
FAQ suggestion - I will start building a FAQ if people will e-mail content to email@example.com (real content, not just "we need to...")
so vital isnt "stable" yet then?
there a many vital boards out there....and I may (?) be the only one having problems
or I'm just picky
I wouldn't say that. Abdul and I ran it successfully at his shop.
does it run, bug free for days and weeks on end yet?
and I've come close...
not for me
Within the parameters of a Sherline mill running 100 ipm.
it may be that I should chane MB's
so ... its still "development" then
And shutting down EMC when he goes home.
the STG card is expensive and ISA
so thats dead
not if it is the only thing that runs well
I cant by PCs with ISA
ISA and PC104 are very alive in the industrial setting.
actually I can't say that... ppmc runs well when it runs...but I tend to break it ....
SteveStallings, i'll help where i can and find time
SteveStallings: you plan to work from the existing FAQ or what?
robin .... email Don Lemke and see how he is doing with his vital board
I must admit that I need to look at the existing FAQ.......
rayh: so I could buy an industrial PC and an STG card for .. about 2K GBP .. or I could buy a plug and play rackmount motion controller for about .. err 2K
but the idea is to make it more visible on the web site
is the FAQ visible on the website?
Henkka was maintaining that FAQ for a while.
rayh: ISA is a seriously dead format for home and semi-industrial users
I believe that there is a lyx doc with the existing in sf.
rayh: which is why we need the PCI vital solution
PCI shouldn't be an issue, if the cards get set up correctly.
The Vital solution is very attractive.
its a lot more card than 99% of our users will need I suspect
The fpga setup solution is not a single sided EMC issue.
a 3 axis and 16 IO card for a lot less dollars would be nicer
Anyone with a parallel port can get Jon Elson's board for $250.
(and a PCI parallel port for $30)
SWPadnos: doe it drive servos?
Abdul found that the price/capability thing was exponential.
it outputs step/direction signals for a Gecko-like drive.
A nearly bare board cost nearly the same price.
SWPadnos: so thats a 'no' then
Go to pricewatch, click on motherboard, and type ISA into the search. There aren't too many options these days.
true but you only need one good one
Pricewatch is not the place to find these.
That's true, but you do need a certain CPU speed (depending on how you want to drive your motors)
And as robin points out they are spendy.\
I just searched for 'isa motherboard'
rayh: nope, but that's where a lot of hobbyists would shop (or Dell / Gateway / etc.)
but who want to use stg anymore anyway?
but the alternatives are : ppmc, vigilant, ?
BTW Dave...do you have motenc working on an actual machine?
I just took it off...and am back to stg.
If I needed high speed stepping I'd work with Elson's board.
It worked ok?
it would run but shifted 125 thou in zero on a single run ...g1 x 24 y 8
g1 x 0 y 0
oh..encoder noise problem or whatever?
finally it took off at full speed...no control toward +y and I used the estop
same cabling with stg works perfectly
This guy that called me bought a motenc near here
like I said before...check with Don Lemke...I think he is running one without problems
ah yes ...Buddy
the one that wants hardware feed override
He has got Abdul working on it I guess
where is don?
I think there will be a vital board at the coding fest and at the integration session
Don is MI maybe
look for his posts on emc-user
I obviously want to go to the vital board on future intallations
"Donald V. Lemke" <firstname.lastname@example.org>
wonder why yours acts up
wish I knew
perhaps it's just a defective card
I really suspect it is software
or my motherboard
I'm going to use the stg for now...just to be able to concentrate on making parts rather than fighting the machine
if it runs away sounds like i/o isn't getting written
well it ran away just after a g1 x0 y 0 at 100 ipm
Well the stg IS solid....I'll agree
I'm of the opinion that we should not expect to take on the responsibility for making a manufacturer's board work with EMC.
no pending motion
using it 30 hrs a week
I agree and it isn't that Abdul has not been helpful
We have tended to do that with stg and parport.
we really missed the boat when Abdul was sick and couldn't make it to fest
ray: agreed...but helping out a manufacturer should be ok
With him taking on the product responsibility of course
And testing and all the rest.
But a non-functioning, flakey board should not reflect badly on us.
A low cost board that works would really make servo emc take off
Right. And I think Abdul's board is very close to that.
I'm still waiting for someone to do a Mauch/Kaluga with a dac
Someone mentioned a 3 axis low cost unit, but in small quan it would cost as much as 8
but that implies that you don't need i/o
SteveStallings, the first faq submission is on the way
the boards dont cost much to make
well with plenty of dio
probaly sub 50 dollars all in
Yep. The little logic i put on the rutex mb for Smithy cost near a $100
right robin...it's development costs
especially for low numbers
but if you have high resale, you get low numbers ...
vital if people can make it work is still a good deal
the development cost of trimming a proven 8 axis board down to 3 + 16 IO is small
I need to talk to abdul about distributing a bin for rc46...that might fix the problems
good enough to start some serious interest with commercial machine builders
that would get some volume that could lower the price for all
This also assumes that emc has a good trajectory planner
Chris may have made that happen
lets hope so ...
les: What volume do you think?
I wish I could do some serious testing of it but just can't right now
les: I have the latest CVS head built, I'll try it tonight!
SWPadnos: at least hundreds anually I wou;ld think
robin: a full servo one?
Chris has tested steper
it would be interesting to know how many boards stg has sold
prob quite a few but not for emc
afik, ppmc and vital are pretty low numbers
I sure missed the start of the meeting today
For Vital to make any profit right now they need to persue non emc aps
to pay for the thing
slomo - got it, thanks
sure, just let me know how else i can help
les: I disagree.
hmm how so?
Glad you asked.
I think that we need to get the word out.
If it works well for motion and IO, I believe that many projects will use it.
It does need to be proven.
I would love to use emc for client's machines
we were talking about that yesterday
like the 75 ft foam cutter I was working on yesterday
The client is not a technical type and emc might be a real problem for him
emc needs two tinkgs to be useable in that sort of app
I know of half a dozen integrators who would use it if we can prove to them that it is as good as a commercial device.
I'm one of them
rayh: its MILES off commercial stuff, but it costs less too.
rayh: all the commercial stuff has click-and-drool configurators and GUI builders
There are a lot of applications that don't necessarily involve a lot of man-machine interfacing.
Maybe but I've deconstructed some of the commercial stuff and it ain't miles.
robin: if Chris' stuff works I think it can be a competitive modern control
Think about things like one-off feffects for theater (or the film industry)
rayh: motion wise, no .. we're pretty good
rayh: but customisabele wise? we suck im afraid
les: yes, control wise, but the front end is not easy to customise without programming
Could you list those issues.
And it's solid (for me) I have never had a crash or lockup with original emc
it does need some help on the TC enc
Try customizing an AB, Fanuc, Siemens.
rayh: have a look at the Baldor MINT and Workbench stuff
Try customizing a Mach.
Ah...a conversational aux program that does stuff like .ini files?
What the hell we trying to pull over on ourselves.
rayh: whats a Mach?
rayh: you're kidding surely?
rayh: have you tried customising mach2?
Just being a devil.
Are you referring to ini setup?
rayh: no, GUI stuff, custom code for buttons, operatiosn etc
That ain't hardly customizing. Thats integration.
Mach now supports lots of user extensions and adaptations to machine interfaces. It ain't all painless, but it is there.
rayh: compare adding say a new screen and a dozen extra buttons to Mach2 and EMC, I can do that in 20 minutes on Mach2 with just click and drool
What's the new screen do?
rayh: I can add custom code for M-codes with the same ease
Ray, please help me understand your customizing vs. integration
Is Axis configurable?
rayh: whatever I want, interacting with the core, new displays of parmeters
rayh: if we could have the flexibility of Mach2 with EMC we'd have it gripped. a world-class product
You mean you can get a slider readout of spindle load in 20 mins with mach?
assuming I could get the value in there, yes
with NO coding either
assuming I could get the value in there, yes. And therein lies the rub.
I hate to poke and run but the fam calls for lunch.
les: not without programming
rayh: do me one favour ... download mach2 and try the screen builder
les: I'm not sure how any frontend could be
les: sure you could drag a button into place but then what? what does it do?
cradek: link it to a variable internally so it changes state as the var chages
Well it seems like labview like cofigurability would be a tall order
a lot of work
cradek: have it call a function when you press it
* rayh is away: I'm busy
LabView isn't something to aspire to, in my opinion
mach2s motion sucks though
I built the stepper factory test units with DAQFactory
Mach stuff is built on Visual Basic - like programming with objects
yep, works OK
robin_z: but those things are called programming in my book
You drag and drop a button or bar and write a script in a window that pops up
they do not rely on the user running a compiler
dont even write a script
just pop into a field the name of the var it calls
so can you guys always read my emails to the list? I have been PGP signing them and I wonder if it causes problems
it seems like I get fewer responses than I expect
especially when answering questions for people
yeah, DAQFactory did that stuff too
Chris: I get your list posts
cradek: I have no problems w/ your emails
cradek - they will not preview in Outlook, require specific open to read
if it needs functions that dont exist, write them in VB, drop them in a file, call it M901.vbs, link the button to M code M901 .. done
seems like I answer lots of questions, never to hear back from the questioner
SteveStallings: well MIME PGP signed messages have only been the standard for about 10 years - no big surprise that MS doesn't do it right yet
cradek: Remember when I grumped about this on an unrelated mailing list?
Where is the screen builder for Mach2?
don't shoot the messenger, please....
jepler: I guess so
cradek: you could solve that ... just drop all mail from Outlook clients, then you want be tempted to write answers to them :)
cradek: outlook + mailman + pgp = problem
SteveStallings: sorry! I'm not.
SWPadnos: distributed with mach2
well I'll quit doing it then.
robin_z: don't tempt me
jepler: what is mailman?
last post I see is to Buddy...the feedoveride guy
cradek: the mailing list software
no reply though
I just answered a bunch for the foamcutter guy too
didn't get my copy yet though
ok, there it is
cradek: that response about foamcutter is not a signed message?
I'm not going to sign anymore
I just got one foamcutting response (like 2 minutes ago)
you're going to let microsoft win?
no, I'm going to be pragmatic
if I want to help people use emc, they should be able to read my messages
cradek...much cleaner without all the yellow banners
but you don't know it's actually from me anymore
if I say something stupid now, I'll blame it on jepler
but how mnay people are going to spoof you?
If they're running EMC, they should have a Linux machine ...
I se the "how best to upgrade" thread
(and therefore a non-microsoft email client :) )
I happen to agree .. but
SWPadnos: sure, but that doesn't reflect the actual state of the world.
but again no replies to Chris' answer
indedd - it is a sad state.
Chris: perhaps you answers are so good that nothing else remains to be said! ; )
les: haha you're very generous
I'm going to bail...have fun
yeah me too...have to assemble some circuit boards
circuit boards, you mean not wooden boards?
cradek: how hard is it to alter the gui in Axis?
I am so stacked with work that I have to do the engineering stuff on weekends
danfalck: The GUI is described by the file "axis.nf" which is really a tcl script
so you just change the axis.nf file and it works the next time you run axis?
danfalck: a couple of blocks in the axis.py script list widgets used in the Python code, variables, and commands that are implemented in Python but called by tcl code
danfalck: You could modify the installed copy of axis.nf, or edit the one in tcl/ and run "setup.py install" again.
just wondering how hard it is, in relation to the question earlier about Mach2
The axis.nf file is actually written by an unrealeased GUI designer program for Tk, so editing it by hand is likely to break the GUI designer .. but nobody but me cares about that.
Here's a web page about a 1-year-old version of the GUI designer: http://unpy.net/~jepler/nf/
it's been used internally by a commercial company for about 2 1/2 years now, i've never gotten around to severing all the ties to that environment and releasing it to the world..
hm, that version is actually older than I thought, but the program isn't undergoing much active development
cool your own GUI builder...
it was a fun project
but, the user can twiddle with Axis stand alone
sure, if she understands tcl, tk, and Python...
time for lunch .. see you guys later
danfalck: if you have something specific you're interested in doing in AXIS, let's talk about it sometime, or on the mailing list...
danfalck: the problem with axis is that it works perfectly for me and for chris, so we're not developing it anymore... just using i.\
jepler: I don't have any specifics to alter right now, but will later on....
I also like to understand what's going on in it. Learning experience ;)
So, about this EMC2 / Kernel 2.6 thing :)
you need JMK or Paul for that, and neither is here just now......
Oh, well. Too late I guess. :(
JMK will likely be back late today, Paul is traveling I think
cool - I'll leave this open and check from time to time.
I need to go out to the shop. I'll talk to you guys later. Thanks.
jmkasunich: change high to low
jmkasunich: change high to low
re: programmers fest - how does one sign up, what facilities are available (lodging, etc.)?
planning still in process, not sure how many we will be able to accomodate, there are plenty of hotels in the area including one fairly cheap one, facilities will probably be just a conference room, perhaps a Sherline with limit switches if NIST sees fit to make it available, otherwise just a hard core software developers conference
sounds god to me.
JMK will flesh out the details as he gets time
OK. It's still several months away, but flights and hotel reservations creep up fast.
* rayh is back (gone 01:13:31)
no one around?
just catching my breath..... shoveling snow....
heh.. I just escaped the snow...
came back to the city
I had about 80 cm in the mountains ;)
a bit more than we had 8-0
what did I miss?
discussions about ease of installings, configuring, extending EMC and other stuff about altenatives to STG card
* alex_joni needs to read the logs...
I just read about: "Tarquin Fintimlinbinwhinbimlim Bus Stop F'tang F'tang Ole Biscuit-Barrel"
robin-sz's name for a compile script ;)
perhaps you can discuss kernel 2.6 compilation issues??
* alex_joni hides
I am kidding.. shoot
oh come on :) It's just EMC2, kernel 2.6, and Jon Elson's USC card.
What could be simpler?
* alex_joni wonders
well.. what's the problem?
besides.. that it's not working ( I assume )
Compilation of EMC2 would be the firsst problem.
(others are solvable once that one goes away)
to get that done a lot of tinkering with the Makefiles is needed
besides source modify
I have some limited knowledge about emc2, but less about 2.6
Actually, I'm looking at an excellent "getting your module to compile with kernel 2.6" article at http://www.captain.at/programming/kernel-2.6/
I wish I'd have the time to install a 2.6 kernel
It looks like all you need (for a standard, non-RT kernel) is to do make -C (wherever the kernel is) SUBDIRS="eherever mh module is" modules, with your module name (no .o or .ko) as a target.
(SUBDIRS = "wherever my modules is" )
(are - damn - I'm starting to type like Bush.
that's kinda only half the trouble
you still have some include order to sort out in the sources
* rayh is away: for a bit
the Makefile needs to be redone
so that it can be used to compile stuff both on (2.2)2.4 and on 2.6
true. I solved one problem by putting uaccess after time.h (in rtai_rtapi.c)
Maybe different makefiles would be good, with the .configure script choosing between them
that could be done.. but I think that needs to be decided first
(or at least the "makefile.inc")
makefile.inc is generated by ./configure
can you send me a makefile.inc that would work for 2.6?
I would change ./configure to output one for 2.6 systems
right - it may be possible to make any kernel-specific stuff go there
Once I get one working, I'll let you know :)
you can send to the devel list
that would be easiest
and you'll get a lot of competent feedback
maybe I'll step onto the 2.6 train .. I might be able to help ;)
That would be excellent.
you could try to talk to paul_c, he did the new BDI (emc1 2.6 kernel)
I had no real difficulty in installing Adeos and RTAI (Fusion) on my Gentoo box. It was just a matter of finding the right installation files.
I mean you shouldn't get into troubles
you could check out libnml from emc2 CVS (tag pc_2_6_test)
that should compile on 2.6
maybe get some ideas from the code paul_c modified there
I'm not a CVS wizard yet, so I'm still figuring out how to manage different changesets, annd keep whatever changes I make locally.
unless you commit (cvs commit -m "message" file) it's only local
and when you do a (cvs up -dP) it will take from CVS what's new (and maybe merge your local stuff into the local copy)
you need (cvs co emc2 -r pc_2_6_test) to checkout the pc_2_6_test tag
ah - cool. I tried to get to the CVS manual linked from the coding style document, but it's a dead link (and I could only find a Subversion manual on that site now)
* jmkasunich is back (I think)
hi... had IRC problems while I was away, don't know how much I missed
looks like there was a good discussion going
a bit about emc2 / kernel 2.6
jmk: can read there about it
I am still catching up what I missed yesterday and today
* rayh is back (gone 00:23:04)
Nice sledding here today.
yeah... I did a little bit of skiing today
had a little bit of snow in the mountains (around 80 cm)
eastern romanian carpatians
alex. I've used the config stuff with emc1 and rc46. Works swell.
glad to hear that
I've sadly read about people not knowing where/if it is
I think we should advertise it a bit more...
yes you, robin ;)
alex_joni: is thatyour work?
robin: we (paul_c & myself) did it this way (rcslib/etc) because that should be the first way you gobefore compiling rcslib
and before compiling emc
so , question 1
why is configure in etc/ and not in /
I'm also not sure it works on all platforms, so directly in rcslib/ could confuse users
they see that ./configure doesn't work.. they go away
well, every other project ive seen has it in /
robin: btw, I'm working on a PC104 card.. not fully done yet
I would argue that people cd rcslib, , see no configure, type make, it doesnt work, go away
it will have 2 LS7266 and 2 82C55
add a couple DACs too
a README is a minimu
they could at least read the README
if there was one, yeah
maybe update the README.. ? (I should do that)
create a README
there is no README in rcslib
ok.. I'll add a README in rcslib/
describing the new (easy) way of ./configure
and the old (hard) way of make PLAT=whatever_foo
personally id favour having configure in / and instructions on what to do when it borks in the README
ok.. question 2
* robin_z tries to remember what questions 2 was
actually, thats all the questiosn for rcslib
the only ther niggle was in emc
firs time you run it does the "RTL Version?"
it wasnt even obvious to me it was a prompt ... we need that to be more obvious
and/or automatic anyway
it should/could do:
You must specify the rt linux kernel extensions you wis to use:
I have found:
2) rtlinux 3_0
RTL is kinda deprecated ;)
3) rtlinux 3_1
no .. its not deprecated
it did it to me
RTAI is the way to go now...
./configure does search for the installed RT
and complains if more than one is found
and echo's the one that will be used
with a message that another can be used by specifying (--with-rtlinux=... or --with-rtai=...)
where ... is the path to the RT
robin: it's a big PITA to figure out what RT is installed
they are so unconsistent from version to version...
no reason for amking the user prompt so obscure
anyway, I didnt find a configure in emc anyway
from rtai-24.1.13 to rtai-3.0r1 a lot of stuff changed
there is none in emc
because there is no need for one
well, it asked me that question
you compile emc exactly like you compile rcslib
so you do ./configure in rcslib/etc
and that creates realtime.def and nonrealtime.def
Are there any known problems with the "Fusion" (development) RTAI version?
then you "make PLAT=realtime all" and "make PLAT=nonrealtime all" inside rcslib and emc
didn't try that...
wouldn't neither ;)
as it is right now there are a lot of RT-version we need to handle
wouldn't wanna add unstable ones aswell
I hope you see why ;)
That's the one I installed, and the test programs all seem to work fine.
not because of the work.. but more because of the lot of installs
I'm not sure if that's part of my compilation problem (but I don't think so - it seems header-related)
and a lot of code to configure.in (which generates ./configure), thus making it unreadable
SWPadnos: the 2.6 is a big issue
So - I didn't do any separate download of rcslib..., Maybe I should start there.
which needs addressing
jmk: still arouns?
jmk: still around?
alex_joni: so, I dont understand. you say emc doesnt need a configure, yet mine ended up not knowing which version ot RT to use
for a couple mins anyway... wife has things for me to do ;-)
I say that means it needs some sort of configure, even if it only pops up a screen asking you to go away and configure rcslib
SWPadnos: you are facing more possibilities
1. try emc1 (emc & rcslib)
probably won't work on 2.6 ;)
2. try emc2 (the new development beeing done right now, not fully functional, but can be used)
probably won't compile on 2.6 either
3. get paul_c's version of emc1 from the emc2 CVS
that probably will compile on 2.6, although not many drivers are there... (only freqmod AFAIK)
emc2 won't work on 2.6 either, as far as I know
robin_z: no ideea what you did, to make it pop you that question ;)
I'm working on that as we speak.
(could be a while, though)
might be coded somewhere in the Makefiles or in generic.def
I'm guessing Robin either had no RT installed, or more than one
alex_joni: I didnt do a configure in rcslib, I did the standard makes in src in emc and rcslib
SWPadnos: working on what? emc2 on 2.6?
The question that robin got comes from a bdi-2xx.
rayh: no it doesnt
It is a start up emc problem rather than a compile problem.
this is CVS head
never got bdi-2xx installed...
But the date of the cvs is not the issue
It is the date of the linux that you are running under.
had HW-problems whith that
I believe that is the case anyway.
i agree. its a initial run problem
This was something added when rtai did not report itself properly during the early days.
robin: the README is a must, I'll do that
jmkasunich is now known as jmk_away
yeah. agreed. just 10 lines will do it.
* alex_joni goes away for half an hour
I'll leave this open, and catch up in while
just trying that linux/w32 driver for the G2002
OK, the first tiny steps of putting the FAQ directly on the web page are done. In trying to break it up into categories I quickly realized that this is going to be a big effort. I see the FAQ as something for people just starting out. As such I feel we should steer people to the newest and most mainstream stuff rather than emphasize all the details of getting the compile process to run. Perhaps move this to a "knowledge base".
So FAQ would be current or recent things and KB would be older or more specific?
why not just one place
because eyes glaze over when they see all the compile issues
with sections for installing, building, running,
look at my stub
SteveStallings: poeple go to faqs for answers
if they dont find answers they dump it and move on
The installation related information can be links from the main FAQ page
(ie, For Gentoo installation information, click here)
1 faq page, sections for everyting
all the info in the faq.
if the consensus is to keep it all in one place, then that is what will happen, just stating my feelings about scaring people away
why would it scare anyone away?
It can get pretty big if you put everything on one page.
it could be just a chapter in the faq, q line
SWPadnos: no one would put it all on one page.
Yes - it can be scary to see a 100-page FAQ, when all you need are the 10 lines that relate to your situation.
SWPadnos: consider an index
right - I uncderstand you now. Ignore my previous ingoramus line :)
you dont have to litter the index with stuff, just make a section at the end ;; compiling.
there could be loads of subchapters.
* robin_z shuts up
over half the people that I mention EMC to have looked at it and turned away because they have real about the installation difficulty. They never even tried because of the perceiption, not the reality.
well, that is either wrong or wont change either way
we have no FAQ yet,
so they didnt read it there
all the more reason to generate a FAQ
if it is difficult to install, they'll still end up having difficulty and still ask questions
OK, lets say we do what SteveStallings suggests.
from my perspective, break it up into differant sections, installation, config, running
again - go to wwwlinuxcnc.org and look at the FAQ stuff
a FAQ and a knowledgebase
can we call them FAQ part1 and FAQ Part2 then please :)
chapters, parts, indexes, whatever.... I just want peoples first exposure to be something other than the intensely technical compile issues
sure. thats fine
have a HOWTO
and a FAQ
the howto is 1 page on how to install from .debs or whatever
the FAQ is the rest
SteveStallings: did you consider a wiki for the FAQ?
I must confess to being ignorant about wikis. There is a German one for EMC, but I cannot read German. I also know nothing about setting up a wiki, but feel that it would probably be a good idea.
I do still feel that a conventions FAQ should exist for the basics.
probably yeah. at least then people can update it , without bothering you
We ought to look at wiki again for this sort of thing.
I think you need a 1 page HOWTO, what it does, what system,sa are supprted, where to get it, how to install it, very short and brief. 2 sides of A4
trying to look into wiki engines now, but if I put it on my server, it will be M$ stuff
oh, you have perl?
there are severl wikis written in perl
so long as your server runs perl, theyll be fine
perl is possible, but not currently implemented on my server
* alex_joni is back
ive never run a MS server, dont really know how they work
the shame is I must say the same for Apache
you mean linux
theres is apache for win32,
I do stumble around a bit on Linux, but have not set up a server. My server runs lots of special stuff like Cold Fusion.
I thought Cold Fusion was perl based?
I am not an IT type and have too little time to become competent with this stuff, I just do as little as possible to get the job done. CF is based on an extension of HTML language.
* CfWiki -- For AllaireColdFusion server. Still in development but functional.
* SeedWiki -- A wiki that can use pluggable components and has provision for WysiWyg editing.
My first perference would be for someone else to set up a wiki and I could just
provide a link.
UseMod or MT moveable type ...?
who's going to FEST?
SeedWiki looks interesting, but if effort is going into something new, it should be in the direction of opensource and movable to Linux in the future.
* alex_joni has a request...
The German EMC users have a wiki going.
I hope to go
German wiki looks sort of empty to me?
rayh: going to FEST?
both if I can
oops, I didn't scroll down far enough on German wiki, perhaps scared of the language 8-)
ok, installing CGI::Wiki::Simple then?
toolate, I typed install now :)
any chance we could just open an English language section on the existing German wiki?
dunno, ask em
I keep trying to delegate.... 8-)
you want me to set this up?
* robin_z doesnt mind either way
robin: set it up
don't ask ...
go for it
later if I get better situated with server capabilities we might consider moving it on LinuxCNC.org
btw, I forgot to tell you guys...
* alex_joni ran a Java GUI on emc the other day ;)
I noticed that java emc directory - was wondering what you were doing
[21:46:14] <robin_z> http://www.redpoint.org.uk/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?HomePage
* alex_joni prods an0n
ready for it to be linked, or do you want to establish its identity first?
robin: how can I add a page?
alex_joni: easy ... click 'rdit the text of this page'
type some crap
and use a word with StudlyCaps
save it ...
ok so far?
not really.. my connection is crap
well, just edit a page and use a word with StudlyCaps like AlexsPage
* alex_joni tries that
when youve done that, youll now see the page has someting like
click the ? mark
type the crap for alexs page. save it .. job done
do we need to establish a useful name like "EMC WiKi" for a root page?
if you like
I like. :)
seems that people need to feel that they are in the right place when following a link from elsewhere like LinuxCNC
thats noting to do with it :)
the actual link might be C:foobar/intropserviver.dll?xml-barfalot
put whatever text yoyu like on the link, the uRL is unimportant
not commenting about the URL, just the logo/title that shows when you get there
HomePage seems a little generic
do you want the word Wiki in it?
might confuse people
I think so to distingush it from a simpler formal FAQ on the web site.
95% of machinsits wont knwo or need to know what a wiki is
* alex_joni quotes robin_z: EMCTarquin Fintimlinbinwhinbimlim Bus Stop F'tang F'tang Ole Biscuit-Barrel
It's unlikely that 95% of machinists will be setting up a machine controller as well :)
whats it to be guys?
* robin_z has vi open ...
great idea! :)
something that implies that it is a living knowledge base, WiKi, Blog, whatever
I like calling it EMC WiKi. I can explain what it is on the LinuxCNC page
whatever, create your own :)
just link to http://www.redpoint.org.uk/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?WhateverYouLike
create that page
But the "HomePage" title is not editable, is it?
yes, its the title of whatever page it is on
OH! "HomePage" is intended to be above "EMC WiKi"
its just the default is set to HomePage
I can set the default to anything
right - a likn like that creates a new page with "WhateverYouTyped" as the title. nice :)
do you want to be able to host other WiKis
if not lets call HomePage >> EMC WiKi
just link to wahtever you like, I'll look at what you linked to in a weeks time
make that the default
we back up the data remotely quite often, so its safe
* alex_joni added some stuff...
this is what I want to add to the README...
now people can modify it before I commit it to CVS
OK - LinuxCNC.org now links to EMCKnowledgebase on Robin's server
we have gone "live"
I have just seen that my user is bull ;)
last edited by 18.104.22.168
* robin_z just edited it
Wikis are pretty awesome ...
oh, thanks for the fixes ;)
* alex_joni agrees
I think the whole linuxcnc.org canbe switched to a wiki (perhaps some certain areas user/pass based)
is it reasonable to feed all the old FAQ stuff into the WiKi
have a look at the 'view other versions' stuff
SteveStallings: yeah, some I think
steve: maybe filter the old-faq a bit
SteveStallings: dunno if all those old snippets of emaiksl should be kept
that is why I asked, for now I will leave the archive on LinuxCNC and ask those in the know to port across the stuff that is still useful
ok.. that sounds reasonable
wikis are great for user-created docs. let the community do your documantation!
* alex_joni wishes he had a comunity for his projects too...
I hate writing documentation on my own ;)
well, thats my contribution to the project for today done then :)
robin: it's appreciated
Fantastic job guys. How do I start a new page under this
rayh: two ways
now he pokes his head out ..... 8-)
1 edit a page, ad a link word LikeThis
save it ..
click the ? mark next to the LikeThis[?]
rayh: if you want to create a page that isn't yet linked from anywhere (kinda pointless, but ..) just add the NewPageName at the end of the URL in your browser, edit it and save it, link to it later
just ignore that
create em linked from the front page, the community will sort it out :)
for anyone that cares, theres a 'perl golf' competition a while ago to write a wiki
you know what perl golf is? ... write it as short as possoble
wanna guess how many lines they got it down to?
220 bytes I thnk
Long old bugger eh
added some BasicSteps for using the wiki
based on robin's advise...
lets review progress in a week :)
You are trying to establish a EMC Wiki ?
it's up and running
[22:31:13] <alex_joni> http://www.redpoint.org.uk/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?EmcKnowledgeBase
i tryed that also last year
how did it go?
i have searched for a Wiki engine that can export the content easyly to latex, because Johns point was that he like well formated documents
my prefernce is for information
I tryed the one which is running wikipedia, but that was not that successfull
well, well try this one
see what gives.
john can always wget it and filter it to produce the latex stuff
html2latex or whatever
maybe there is now one that can do a export to latex, because there was one last year with a export function but it was not finished
a wiki becomes a complex web of interrelated info
how you flatten that to paper I dont know
just cut and paste I guess
a wiki is a living thing, once its pasted onto latex, its dead anyway
a automatic way would be fine
robin: you could do a html2pdf from cron ;)
then it is also possible to develop the emc handbook in a wiki
LinuxCNC now has FAQ links sorted out. Archive is now a sub-page to the main FAQ.
is this links and other stuff or what?
very simple FAQ started on LinuxCNC for new users, links to WiKi and old archives
alex_joni: tell me about your pc104 thing
robin: I have some boards designed for pc104
I have a 16In/16Out board
and I'm working on one with 2xLS7266 (4-axis encoders), and 2x82C55 (a lot of IO)
and probably I'll make one with analog in/out
SteveStallings: why not link to a page called GettingStarted in the Wiki ... then its updateable, even if "seperate" from the rest of the wiki
* Imperator_ got two 7266 samples for his EMC isa card
SteveStallings: Found it had to refresh a couple times.
alex_joni: sounds interesting
alex_joni: the encoder/DAC one
I wanted to make a basic board for EMC
to be useable by users..
you have done 2 boards right?
1 is $small IO
the second one is still not 100%
other is servos + lots of IO
the first one has optocoupling on all the io's
Hmmm. $9.00/chip for the LS7266 (in 100's) + $2.68 each for the 8255's - you may be better off with a PLD
the second one doesn't because of the space...
woudl (servos + little IO) and a secpnd big IO make more sense?
wouldn't want anything else than a LS7166 or LS7266 for encoder count
ahh.. I forgot
I have another board with 4xLS7166 ;)
no dacs :(
which boards has them?
I plan on a DAC board (3 In / 3 Out)
maybe 4 if the space is there
want my 0.02USD worth?
the encoderd aint much use without dacs
My planning is 2x 7266=4x encoders and one DAC7744=4x16bit DAC and 16xdigital out and 16x digital in
make the boards with as many dacs as encoders
if you can oly fit 2 dacs and 2 encoders on a baord, so be it
I cant think when you would want an encoder without a dac
I'll look into that
I use the encoders along with G340's
and a feedback to emc
anyway ... the most common use will be standard servo
endcoder and dac
the format Imperator_ mentioned sounded ideal
4+4 + 16 IO
that floats my boat :)
but you can't fit that into a PC104
3 for sure
Woo! You guys are setting up a wiki?
asdfqwega: done it
* asdfqwega can't wait to throw in his two cents
go right ahead
hope to get that all on a euro size isa card
if it's not bigger than a STG ;)
Imperator_: did you say ISA?
robin_z: yes, sorry
* asdfqwega wishes for a modern mobo w/ ISA
pci maybe later
robin: PC104 is ISA too ;)
asdfqwega: go SBC
alex_joni: electrically, yes
there are some nice VIA ones
i have also a pci developer card here, that is the next step
passive cooling @ 600 MHz.. yey
Imperator_: you have ProtelDXP?
robin: connectionwise, I mean
alex_joni: sounds expensive
robin_z: what's that ???
asdfqwega: not really
I'll stick with dirt cheap relics
you get a lot of ISA relics ;)
Imperator_: design package, logic anaysis, FPGA desing, the lot .. all in one
* alex_joni uses Orcad ;)
Imperator_: comes with some PCI examples ...
Imperator_: apparently ;)
ah ok, no i don't have it
but Eagle is cool too
yeah, have eagle
and free.. I might mention
I've got a PCI card with a AMCC PCI matchmaker chip on it...I wanna make use of it sometime
Does anyone know where Paul is? I think I remember something about him traveling...
* asdfqwega uses gEDA/pcb
asdfqwega: states ...
he's away ;)
asdfqwega: I tried to install gEDA.. but it failed
Great, another 'british invasion'...:P
What are you installing it on? I've used it on Mandrake and Debian
it does compile, but it segfaults at some time..
and I was tired, not interested...
is SUSE rpm-based?
* asdfqwega peers into his local repository
Do you think SUSE could tolerate Mandrake rpm's?
SuSE might have a gEDA package...
don't think so...
depends on libs & such
wow. the G2002 linux front end seemed to build and run first time ...
* asdfqwega can break a .rpm system in no time flat
the G2002 stuff ;)
* alex_joni is thinking of switching to debian
It rolls and rocks!
I'll miss yast ;)
ok... what should I download?
use the 'net install'
robin types faster, listen to him
basic bootup cd, then grabs the rest over the net as it needs it
I haven't tried out Webmin on debian yet, but it was somewhat useful in Mandrake - if you have to have a something Yast-like
Ray - basic FAQ has a few entries in it now, please read and make suggestions
I used Yast for some stuff...
never used either. just apt-get install does it for me
yast is for config
you name it
it's all in one place
Two things I'd like to see ported from Mandrake to debian - diskdrake and (possibly) harddrake
I use a similar thing .. its called 'command line' ;)
robin: I use it too, from time to time
let me guess, but you prefer a GUI
do you monitor system load with hot_babe?
text mode ;)
hot_babe through the aa library?
I think the debian crowd told the guy who wanted to port hot_babe to debian to .. errm .. go away
aa = ascii art?
for viewing mpegs in ascii
I've seen somebody hooking up a TV Tuner through aa
making stereograms in aa = too much time on your hands
Don't laugh, I've seen it done
'course, everyone asks "What is it?"
and.. "what's it good for?"
I use an old CRT for that ;)
heard you got emc running...
it works quite nicely
but I havent configured my axis:es yet..
just changed my port to match.. the default pinouts..
but I need to get my dir outputs inverted
glad to hear you got it running
yeah, but it's a bit away from working good yet :)
with hal it's pretty easy
how do you do that I tried to look at the hal pdf..
but I didnt find out how..
I tried addin out-inverted to the pins but it just made emc fail when starting
well.. you have a file which contains the conenctions made with hal
it's defined in emc.ini
standard_pinouts.hal isnt it?
yeah that much I understand..
now open that file and change parport.0.pin-03-out
to parport.0.pin-03-inverted-out (I'm looking for the exact naming)
I tried changing it to out-inverted..
I think thats what it says in the pdf..
invert not inverted
* anonimasu is starting to like hal
I looked at that stepgen thing earlier also..
it seems neat
but I need to set up my units and things..
and try to get any speed out of the machine,..
* alex_joni is gone sleeping
* robin_z is looking at a g2002
see you guys later
with a neat Linux driver by Steve Hardy
I am at a lan on my way home
but I dont feel like sleeping
I feel like playing with my mill..
robin_z: you know the people that call others geeks are as likely to be geeks as the people they call geeks..
i am MUCH more geeky than you!
I have ... counts ... at least 6 linux boxes running here :)
heh, I just have my laptop here right now :/
my latest is an ARP transparent bridge onthe outgoing link ;)))
nice firewall :)
I do that at thwork..
yeah, the bridge is a test run for when I put traffic shaping into my rack
traffic shaping rocks ^_^
oh yeah, I have a rack in a colo too. thats top geek stuff that :)
I run it at the network here.. to keep the people from using all bandwidth with BT
I'm using Paul's .deb's for the tcl/tk/tclx