#emc | Logs for 2005-01-23

[00:02:05] <gezr> howdy
[00:02:41] <jmkasunich> hi
[00:02:59] <gezr> I added a new photo of the almost finished blasted parts
[00:03:12] <gezr> http://masternode.net/gallery
[00:04:55] <jmkasunich> never saw your shop photos before
[00:05:00] <jmkasunich> you got a shaper! cool!
[00:05:52] <jmkasunich> when I was just getting into metalworking I passed up an opportunity to buy a South Bend 7" shaper for $250
[00:05:59] <jmkasunich> been kicking myself ever since
[00:06:43] <gezr> yeah, I took those today
[00:06:50] <gezr> and did some blasting earlier
[00:06:53] <gezr> I love the shaper
[00:07:30] <gezr> I should make a short little video of it running some time
[00:08:00] <jmkasunich> what kind of mill is that? Benchmaster or something?
[00:08:01] <gezr> I need to make a good set of guards for it, it can toss out chips across the garrage
[00:08:17] <gezr> atlas horizontal
[00:08:29] <jmkasunich> nice
[00:08:39] <jmkasunich> is the lathe an atlas too?
[00:08:43] <gezr> yeah
[00:08:44] <gezr> haha
[00:08:47] <gezr> all atlas
[00:09:23] <gezr> ebayers who get what seem to be good machines then they part them out make me sick at times
[00:09:34] <jmkasunich> I don't think there were many companies that made lathes, mills, and shapers all with the same name
[00:09:39] <gezr> I just wish I could find a good deal on a 1" arbor shaft
[00:09:47] <jmkasunich> SB made lathes and shapers, but no mills that I'm aware of
[00:09:54] <gezr> sb has a mill
[00:10:03] <jmkasunich> what is the spindle taper on your mill?
[00:10:06] <gezr> its larger though
[00:10:09] <gezr> its mt2
[00:10:50] <jmkasunich> what about the lathe spindle taper?
[00:10:53] <gezr> I dont hardly ever use my machines
[00:11:08] <gezr> I think the lathe is mt2 as well, im not sure off the top of my head
[00:11:45] <jmkasunich> you could probably make a 1
[00:11:48] <jmkasunich> a 1" arbor
[00:11:51] <gezr> I have a complete sb 9" over here as well that im rebuilding, I need to make my gear stuff,
[00:11:56] <gezr> yeah I have one in the process
[00:13:37] <gezr> I dont use my machines enough
[00:16:15] <gezr> I have the vertical atatchement for the mill, but I dont have the running gear for it, its a loop pully system
[00:46:11] <A-L-P-H-A> do you guys ever do mockups for parts? Or do you guys just strait to metal?
[00:46:58] <A-L-P-H-A> go
[00:47:21] <A-L-P-H-A> hi
[01:30:22] <A-L-P-H-A> anyone got tips on cutting acrylic sheets [like holes]. I know how to score and snap them to the proper sizes already. A Manual break is awesome for taht.
[01:30:25] <A-L-P-H-A> break = sheet metal bender.
[01:44:12] <cradek> brake
[01:44:32] <cradek> I just drill acrylic
[01:45:05] <cradek> or, use a 1/16" mill at 800rpm/3ipm and it won't melt
[01:45:36] <cradek> the only problem is how easily it melts
[01:48:24] <A-L-P-H-A> 1/16 at 800rpm, 3IPM? that's it?
[01:55:34] <gezr> thats that stuff that will crack quickly hu?
[01:55:35] <cradek> that's what I had to do to keep it from melting
[01:55:44] <cradek> this was .1" thick
[01:56:00] <cradek> gezr: yeah if you drill it too fast it will shatter
[01:56:10] <cradek> but the real problem with the end mill is melting
[01:56:41] <gezr> ah
[01:56:49] <cradek> it's so cheap I like to cut prototypes from it instead of metal
[01:57:22] <cradek> gezr: it melts into a big ball on the mill, then you hit estop, and it instantly hardens and then you break the mill trying to get it off!
[01:57:59] <gezr> yeah, ive never ran that hard stuff ive ran plastics though
[01:58:17] <cradek> nylon works much better but is expensive
[01:59:04] <gezr> ive ran that stuff by the truck load
[01:59:39] <gezr> at times I really miss the place I used to work at
[02:00:00] <gezr> this new place doesnt give me any freedom, but then again I dont have any wories
[02:00:39] <gezr> A-L-P-H-A : did you see the photos I put up?
[02:00:45] <gezr> excuse me. ill brb
[02:03:50] <A-L-P-H-A> gezr. nope... mind posting the link again?
[02:04:14] <A-L-P-H-A> checking
[02:04:20] <gezr> its onoly up a bit, im back
[02:06:21] <A-L-P-H-A> I saw the shop. :)
[02:06:35] <A-L-P-H-A> is that indoors? or the garage?
[02:06:38] <gezr> ill have to take more photos morrow
[02:06:40] <gezr> garage
[02:07:09] <gezr> and just one wall
[02:07:39] <A-L-P-H-A> :)
[02:07:49] <A-L-P-H-A> I need to clean up my shop... it's such a mess...
[02:07:53] <gezr> I only have stuff on one wall :)
[02:07:59] <A-L-P-H-A> heh
[02:09:27] <A-L-P-H-A> maybe I'll do that now... as I need the shop space. I also need to make some shelving under my bench. I could use so much more space there.
[02:10:12] <A-L-P-H-A> gezr... so are you thinking of CNC'n all that? some of it?
[02:10:27] <gezr> na, I like manual stuff :)
[02:10:47] <A-L-P-H-A> I'm way to impatient to make stuff manually...
[02:13:03] <gezr> I dont do much
[02:13:33] <A-L-P-H-A> neither do I...
[02:13:35] <gezr> I have moments like the checkered plate thats on the mill, that was a moment, a chess board for my brother, I have yet to make the pieces for it
[02:14:01] <A-L-P-H-A> see... chess peices would be easy if you had a CNC mill. :)
[02:14:16] <A-L-P-H-A> hmm... actually... that's an idea... Alumnium + acrylic board. :)
[02:14:41] <A-L-P-H-A> and aluminium + acryllic pieces.
[02:14:58] <gezr> that would be neat
[02:14:59] <A-L-P-H-A> tongue and groove the aluminium and acrylic board.
[02:15:15] <cradek> brass and aluminum
[02:15:24] <cradek> the acrylic would get scraped up too quickly
[02:15:33] <A-L-P-H-A> I could get all the aluminium black anodized...
[02:15:41] <A-L-P-H-A> acrylic is pretty durable.
[02:16:07] <A-L-P-H-A> or even acetate instead of acrylic
[02:16:26] <cradek> you could always polish it I guess
[02:16:47] <A-L-P-H-A> it's not like you're banging the pieces together.
[02:16:55] <A-L-P-H-A> it'd be a showpeice on the table in the living room.
[02:16:56] <A-L-P-H-A> :)
[02:17:22] <cradek> a chess board that's not for playing chess??
[02:18:20] <A-L-P-H-A> felt the bottom of the pieces.
[02:19:29] <cradek> that's the ticket
[02:57:08] <A-L-P-H-A> clean up time.
[04:23:22] <jmkasunich> night all
[04:48:00] <A-L-P-H-A> finally got all the chips off the benchtop... and now I gotta clean the floor around the bench. this is taking forever.
[06:07:38] <p3mm3t> p3mm3t is now known as pemmet
[13:18:12] <anonimasu> hello
[13:18:17] <picnet> hi
[13:19:00] <picnet> replaced the zaxis on the 1st cnc i made 2 years ago, kinda helps now having more machines around to make parts.
[13:19:50] <anonimasu> :)
[13:20:08] <anonimasu> I am trying to find the rtai patch for 2.4.21-adeos
[13:21:02] <anonimasu> err adeos-r16
[13:21:35] <picnet> no idea.
[13:24:30] <anonimasu> :)
[13:24:52] <anonimasu> but well, atleast I'll have a dev box for both emc2 and emc1..
[13:29:09] <anonimasu> err adeos rl6.. found it :)
[13:29:19] <anonimasu> just read error on my behalf
[13:30:08] <picnet> bbl
[13:48:43] <anonimasu> ok
[14:54:56] <cradek> hi all
[14:55:21] <jmkasunich> hi
[14:55:38] <cradek> jmkasunich: are you getting hit by the weather over there?
[14:55:54] <jmkasunich> got hit - seems to have ended now
[14:56:02] <jmkasunich> got about 10" or so
[14:56:10] <cradek> guess you'll have to stay home and play with your machines for a while
[14:57:04] <jmkasunich> my goal for today is to slightly de-crapify the basement
[14:57:40] <cradek> I've been doing that too - it's a pain but sure nice when it's done.
[14:58:12] <jmkasunich> I snagged two tall 19" rack cabinets from work, want to get them inside and store stuff in them
[14:58:17] <alex_joni> greetings
[14:58:23] <jmkasunich> hi alex
[14:58:29] <alex_joni> what's up?
[15:00:32] <jmkasunich> sorting thru junk
[15:00:46] <alex_joni> cool
[15:01:02] <alex_joni> I started my rtai.. think I'll start coding a little
[15:01:15] <Imperator_> Hi all
[15:01:28] <alex_joni> hey Martin...
[15:01:31] <alex_joni> long time no see
[15:01:45] <Imperator_> Hi ALex
[15:02:03] <Imperator_> yes, have a lot to do at the moment
[15:02:22] <Imperator_> hu, could outside
[15:02:34] <Imperator_> I was out with the bike
[15:02:41] <alex_joni> it's pretty worm here (+2 C)
[15:03:01] <Imperator_> hm, here we have something around zero
[15:05:00] <alex_joni> jmk: got a lot of snow?
[15:05:35] <Imperator_> nice !!
[15:06:31] <jmkasunich> about 300mm
[15:06:39] <Imperator_> Hi John
[15:06:52] <jmkasunich> temp around -12C
[15:06:57] <Imperator_> thats nice to ride the bike in the snow :-)
[15:07:00] <alex_joni> brrr
[15:07:02] <jmkasunich> Hi Martin
[15:07:05] <Imperator_> grrrr
[15:07:08] <jepler> morning guys
[15:07:12] <Imperator_> could :-)
[15:07:19] <Imperator_> evening
[15:07:50] <Imperator_> are there some news ???
[15:08:13] <jmkasunich> what kind of news?
[15:09:34] <Imperator_> for example about emc fest or so
[15:09:39] <alex_joni> hey jepler
[15:10:08] <jmkasunich> the fest: dates are Monday 4/25 thru Thursday 4/28, at NIST near Washington DC
[15:10:25] <jmkasunich> space for 12 people, maybe a couple more
[15:10:34] <cradek> sounds fun
[15:10:36] <Imperator_> nice
[15:10:43] <alex_joni> hey cradek
[15:10:48] <jmkasunich> I need to put the facts and a tentative agenda somewhere
[15:10:52] <jmkasunich> (on the web)
[15:10:56] <cradek> hello
[15:11:27] <jmkasunich> mark your calenders and make your travel plans
[15:11:45] <jmkasunich> "headquarters" hotel is Motel 6 (cheapest in the area, about $60 per night)
[15:12:33] <jmkasunich> stupid logger
[15:12:49] <alex_joni> lol
[15:13:26] <alex_joni> hmmm. it snows again
[15:14:10] <alex_joni> * alex_joni wonders how it must have been to live in a cave...
[15:14:54] <jmkasunich> cold, wet, and dark
[15:15:03] <jmkasunich> no internet either :-(
[15:15:19] <alex_joni> maybe some mobile-dial-up
[15:15:22] <alex_joni> :-)
[15:15:33] <alex_joni> definately no broadband
[15:15:50] <alex_joni> is an0n around?
[15:16:16] <Imperator_> * Imperator_ takes a hot shower to defrost again
[15:17:09] <alex_joni> hi steve
[15:17:29] <jmkasunich> morning steve
[15:17:32] <SteveStallings> hi alex, looks like jmk is up early 8-)
[15:17:48] <jmkasunich> big ambitions today... trying to clean the basement
[15:17:53] <jmkasunich> hi ray
[15:18:07] <alex_joni> hello ray
[15:18:13] <rayh> Hey. What's up.
[15:18:15] <SteveStallings> big ambitions here to, hope to get out of the driveway...
[15:18:22] <alex_joni> steve: finally it's snowing here too
[15:18:33] <jmkasunich> what, an inch of snow in virginia?
[15:18:35] <rayh> Got a bit of snow, eh?
[15:19:20] <rayh> We got about 7 before it started to drift.
[15:19:27] <SteveStallings> actually only about 4 inches here, but the temps are low enough to make things like glass and my driveway is 400 feet and my street is now a dead end that does not get plowed
[15:20:30] <jmkasunich> ouch
[15:20:43] <jmkasunich> you have a snowblower?
[15:21:17] <SteveStallings> this IS virginia.... snowblower?????
[15:21:22] <jmkasunich> rayh: only 7"? I thought you would have 7 feet by now ;-)
[15:21:33] <rayh> Snow and sleet can be much harder to deal with south of where I am.
[15:21:50] <jmkasunich> it's too cold to snow up where you are?
[15:22:14] <jmkasunich> SteveStallings: how steep is your driveway... around here, we just drive right thru 4"
[15:22:20] <rayh> Right. The drift in the lake yard looks like about 4.5 feet. More like six beside the driveway.
[15:22:28] <rayh> Now it is.
[15:22:54] <SteveStallings> Ray, the ISO images a Sherline are still off line and I have a couple of guys asking what to do, are there any mirrors
[15:22:57] <rayh> About a 30 degree at the worst.
[15:23:03] <cradek> wow, tomorrow will have a high of 53F/12C
[15:23:09] <jmkasunich> we've probably had 3 feet plus so far this winter, but in batches, and it's gotten warm enough to melt each batch
[15:23:17] <jmkasunich> flooding has been a problem in some areas
[15:23:23] <rayh> I'm thinking that the only mirrors are for 4.0x
[15:23:26] <jmkasunich> about 12-15" on the ground right now
[15:24:32] <SteveStallings> I sent e-mail to Sherline asking for help, but no response.
[15:25:15] <cradek> I got propoganda from Sherline, when I bought something recently, saying a new version of Linux is out, Linux 4.05
[15:25:58] <jmkasunich> IOW, they haven't the slightest idea what they are talking about
[15:26:11] <cradek> I'm sorry they're not doing their part but are still trying to profit form Paul's work
[15:26:30] <cradek> let me go see if I can find it
[15:26:32] <jmkasunich> although the Linux version thing can certainly be confusing
[15:26:36] <alex_joni_> * alex_joni_ thinks the latest linux is 4.08
[15:26:36] <rayh> Oh yea. They've shipped quite a few machines with 4.05 and a few mods we've made
[15:26:41] <alex_joni_> lol
[15:26:47] <jmkasunich> that's the latest BDI
[15:26:58] <alex_joni_> I know john ;)
[15:27:18] <rayh> The home bug is there so folk can't use the zero buttons.
[15:27:43] <alex_joni_> rayh: one thing about the latest BDI
[15:27:57] <alex_joni_> an0n asked me if he could compile from CVS on BDI4.08
[15:28:06] <alex_joni_> either emc1 or emc2
[15:28:27] <alex_joni_> but if it's only 2.6-based I reckon neither will compile
[15:28:52] <rayh> Uh. No no compile from current cvs on 2.6
[15:29:49] <alex_joni_> I don't think BDI4.08 is the way to go for a newbie
[15:30:00] <cradek> darn, can't find it
[15:30:23] <alex_joni_> if something is broken (like the stepping an0n reports)... we can't just say .. checkout from CVS and recompile
[15:30:36] <alex_joni_> cradek: what?
[15:30:45] <cradek> the thing sherline sent me
[15:30:54] <rayh> cradek: Paul was compensated a bit for the work that he was doing for them.
[15:31:02] <alex_joni_> you wanna install the latest linux? :-)
[15:31:37] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich has to go out in the garage for a bit... I'll be here intermittently
[15:32:33] <alex_joni_> ok.. now is the time I wanna hear thoughts about IO-controller
[15:32:42] <alex_joni_> what would anyone wish of it...
[15:32:52] <alex_joni_> what it should control, how, etc
[15:32:59] <alex_joni_> if you have such thoughts ;)
[15:33:31] <rayh> Let me propose the most radical case I can think of. All IO should go through a single controller.
[15:33:52] <alex_joni_> rayh: there will be only one controller
[15:34:25] <rayh> Limits, homes, probes and all the front panel buttons?
[15:34:58] <alex_joni_> nope... that's handled by emcmot
[15:35:07] <alex_joni_> limits, homes
[15:35:20] <alex_joni_> don't know about probes
[15:35:37] <alex_joni_> front panel buttons=? (lube, coolant, etc.?)
[15:35:56] <rayh> That's why I proposed a single path to all IO.
[15:36:06] <alex_joni_> you don't have to have one singlke path
[15:36:18] <rayh> 'cause I know that some of it goes through other places.
[15:36:20] <alex_joni_> because.. you have some rt-stuff (like emcmot)
[15:36:29] <alex_joni_> and some non-rt stuff like (coolant)
[15:36:47] <alex_joni_> you don't need to clutter up the RT part with lube & such
[15:37:15] <rayh> But what if I want to use a limit or a home switch in ladder logic.
[15:37:16] <alex_joni_> but I agree they all end up in the same place (and that's HAL)
[15:37:33] <alex_joni_> you can access HAL-pins from whereever you want
[15:38:15] <rayh> But what if I want the logic of limits to be in my ladder.
[15:38:39] <alex_joni_> rayh: can you give me an example where some ladder is usefull?
[15:38:56] <alex_joni_> * alex_joni_ knows very little about IO-controllers...
[15:39:31] <rayh> In a running EMC1 now, if you hit a limit it turns the machine off.
[15:39:43] <alex_joni_> yes...
[15:39:52] <rayh> Does not create a e-stop condition.
[15:39:56] <alex_joni_> depends on how it's done though
[15:40:30] <rayh> To me, that is hard coded, c language based logic.
[15:40:41] <alex_joni_> I agree
[15:40:54] <alex_joni_> and it's hardcoded in the motion-controller
[15:41:06] <rayh> Most new machine controls use a limit to prevent further motion in the direction defined by the limit.
[15:41:21] <alex_joni_> the motion-controller then sends the IO-controller a NML-message
[15:42:09] <alex_joni_> I think when you hit a hardware limit you should estop
[15:42:27] <alex_joni_> if you hit a software limit it should tell you and turn the machine off
[15:42:31] <rayh> I'd like to be able to write a bit of ladder that says if x+limit = true --> do this.
[15:42:33] <alex_joni_> but not estop
[15:42:54] <alex_joni_> rayh: problem is.. where do you want to put that code?
[15:43:03] <alex_joni_> I mean.. who'll access it?
[15:43:23] <rayh> I want to put that code into a single machine logic location.
[15:43:28] <alex_joni_> and.. if it's code you compile... no good
[15:43:33] <rayh> Right in there with all the other machine logic.
[15:43:56] <alex_joni_> you mean some kind of control-ini file?
[15:44:08] <rayh> Hal has the ability to run multiple threads with more than one timing.
[15:44:15] <alex_joni_> yes
[15:44:47] <alex_joni_> * alex_joni_ feels where this is going
[15:44:56] <alex_joni_> I picture it like this...
[15:44:58] <rayh> No reason I can see that the Machine Logic location should not be able to assign priorities (threads) to ladder lines.
[15:45:08] <alex_joni_> all EMC-components export HAL-pins
[15:45:40] <alex_joni_> a suplimentary logic (a ladder controller) reads the ladder you programmed
[15:45:56] <alex_joni_> and based on that it reads the HAL-pins and sets some pins
[15:46:08] <alex_joni_> which gets noticed by motion, io, etc
[15:46:15] <rayh> Good so far.
[15:46:50] <alex_joni_> now, another aspect...
[15:46:59] <alex_joni_> if I want to add a custom button to the GUI
[15:47:06] <rayh> Where I fail to agree with the history of emc is my belief that limits are not motion.
[15:47:23] <alex_joni_> hardware limits are definately motion
[15:47:32] <alex_joni_> hardcoded
[15:47:41] <alex_joni_> software limits.. not so sure
[15:47:43] <rayh> They may well run at the speed of motion but they are not inherently motion. They are io.
[15:47:56] <alex_joni_> I disagree
[15:48:10] <rayh> Right I expected that you would.
[15:48:21] <alex_joni_> it is a safety stuff related to motion
[15:48:26] <alex_joni_> and to nothing else
[15:48:35] <rayh> In my part of the world we call it "baiting the hook."
[15:48:41] <alex_joni_> how about stepping?
[15:48:48] <alex_joni_> is that also IO?
[15:49:00] <rayh> No it is motion.
[15:49:05] <alex_joni_> how so?
[15:49:36] <rayh> Because of what it does when it gets into the world.
[15:50:14] <alex_joni_> hmm.. I'm still not convinced that hardware limits are IO
[15:50:41] <alex_joni_> on the robots I program, hardware limits are used to power-off the servos
[15:50:45] <rayh> Right. I don't expect the developers to just agree with me.
[15:50:48] <alex_joni_> as the first thing they do
[15:51:01] <rayh> I can understand that.
[15:51:04] <alex_joni_> after that they get noticed by the controller
[15:51:14] <alex_joni_> which tells the user what happened
[15:51:27] <rayh> But you want to be able to control what motion each limit affects.
[15:51:30] <alex_joni_> and once you reached a hardware switch ... you can't do anything about it
[15:51:45] <alex_joni_> you need to push the axis manually off the limit
[15:52:00] <rayh> No problem there.
[15:52:14] <rayh> Unless the machine is unattended.
[15:52:16] <alex_joni_> during normal running however, you cannot reach a hardware limit
[15:52:26] <alex_joni_> never
[15:52:29] <rayh> No problem there either.
[15:52:37] <alex_joni_> because of the software limits
[15:52:52] <rayh> and because of good programming practice.
[15:53:02] <alex_joni_> the only case you reach a hardware limit is when something is wrong with the machine
[15:53:16] <alex_joni_> doesn't have to do anything with programming
[15:53:47] <alex_joni_> if you move the axis towards the end, and the software limit is reached that's it.. it stops
[15:53:47] <rayh> But I still insist that I should be able to affect the logic of a limit in a single machine configuration location.
[15:54:07] <rayh> Nope.
[15:54:13] <alex_joni_> why?
[15:54:36] <alex_joni_> I can move back, but I cannot move forward
[15:54:51] <alex_joni_> that's how the software limit is defined
[15:55:06] <rayh> I've got a bridge mazak that has limits.
[15:55:19] <alex_joni_> the maximum I can travel safely on that axis...
[15:55:24] <alex_joni_> * alex_joni_ is listening
[15:55:31] <rayh> But to change a tool it has to reach beyond one limit.
[15:55:42] <alex_joni_> software or hardware?
[15:55:47] <rayh> In order to do that it has to have a door open.
[15:56:15] <rayh> We don't want to crash into that door while machining.\
[15:56:32] <rayh> So we put a hard limit there to prevent y axis motion.
[15:56:53] <alex_joni_> if you still go beyond that limit it's not a hard-limit
[15:57:03] <alex_joni_> at least not according to my beliefs
[15:57:05] <alex_joni_> ;)
[15:57:10] <rayh> Then we ignore that limit when whe have the door open and want to move into the tool carousel.
[15:57:39] <alex_joni_> you actually bypass the switch with the door... right?
[15:57:41] <rayh> Right I accept your beliefs and will encourage you to program your machine to match those beliefs.
[15:58:04] <alex_joni_> rayh: I don't mean to program my machine :)
[15:58:09] <rayh> What I wish to allow is for me to also program my machine to my beliefs.
[15:58:20] <alex_joni_> that's why I started this conversation
[15:58:22] <rayh> Ah. Any machine logic is a program.
[15:58:46] <alex_joni_> now you gave me a point I can accept, so as to enlarge my belief :-)
[15:58:53] <rayh> Why should I have to recompile EMC to change how my machine works.
[15:59:03] <alex_joni_> of course you shouldn't
[15:59:11] <alex_joni_> I agree there
[15:59:16] <alex_joni_> but.. another thing...
[15:59:20] <rayh> To my mind, ladder logic is programming.
[15:59:32] <alex_joni_> if I want to control a plasma
[15:59:42] <alex_joni_> I still have a lot to recompile
[15:59:52] <rayh> That hard coded action of a limit is programming
[16:00:11] <rayh> Right on. Plasma is a perfect example.
[16:00:13] <alex_joni_> because... I can't add the NML-signals I want to send without recompiling the whole emc
[16:40:00] <jmkasunich> waitaminit rayh... you said "run
[16:40:04] <rayh> That one might be.
[16:40:04] <jmkasunich> "run" again
[16:40:21] <jmkasunich> what do you mean by "run" as opposed to "rung"
[16:40:42] <dave-e> run processes rungs..right
[16:41:06] <dave-e> sequentially
[16:41:18] <jmkasunich> so a run is a group of rungs that are all evaluated at the same rate and sequentually?
[16:41:30] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich has little experience with PLCs, and doesn't know the lingo
[16:41:47] <rayh> Yes. I'm not certain I meant run at all. Focus on little bits of the logic. Each bit is a rung.
[16:42:00] <dave-e> a run does the whole ladder???
[16:42:20] <rayh> That would be true I think, dave.
[16:42:23] <jmkasunich> right - rung is well defined, I think... one coil or other output, and one or more contacts controlling it
[16:42:41] <jmkasunich> I was thinking of a collection of rungs that executes sequentially as a ladder
[16:42:59] <jmkasunich> and you could have more than one ladder, one running every 0.1sec, one running every 0.001sec, etc
[16:43:11] <rayh> So my thought is that any logic should be approachable through the same process. If it's a classicladder or a schematic.
[16:43:30] <jmkasunich> ladders are better than schematic for logic
[16:43:46] <rayh> I would say that they should be the same ladder but different rungs or routines can run at different rates.
[16:43:48] <jmkasunich> schematics are better than ladders for general interconnect (analog signals, stepgens, etc)
[16:43:51] <SteveStallings> HAL could support multiple ladders, just as a machine could have multiple PLCs. Each implementer could choose ladder or C-code to implement the HAL component to run his tool changer or whatever
[16:44:07] <jmkasunich> right Steve...
[16:44:47] <jmkasunich> although if I was doing a HAL implementation of ladders, each ladder would be it's own component... and all rungs within a single ladder/component would be evaluated at the same rate
[16:45:08] <dave-e> makes sense
[16:45:11] <SteveStallings> yes
[16:45:28] <rayh> The only problem with that would be getting various parts out of sequence.
[16:45:42] <jmkasunich> what do you mean out of sequence?
[16:45:53] <rayh> A traditional PLC runs with known relationships between all parts of the program.
[16:46:15] <jmkasunich> you mean making sure the rungs processing limits run before the motion controller that uses those inputs?
[16:46:23] <jmkasunich> and similar issues?
[16:46:33] <rayh> Right. That is the central idea.
[16:46:39] <jmkasunich> gotcha
[16:46:48] <jmkasunich> HAL deals with that using threads and functions
[16:46:58] <rayh> A PLC reads all inputs, computes the next relationships, and the writes all the outputs.
[16:47:12] <jmkasunich> right - I would implemnt that as a single HAL function
[16:48:06] <jmkasunich> the HAL thread would execute driver input functions, then one PLC function that processes inputs, then the motion function and some other stuff, then perhaps another PLC function that processes outputs, and finally the driver output functions
[16:48:37] <jmkasunich> I'm starting to see the fundamental difference between Ray's vision and mind
[16:48:39] <jmkasunich> mine
[16:48:58] <jmkasunich> Ray is wrapping HAL and motion and stepgen and the rest in the PLC metaphore
[16:49:07] <alex_joni_> yup
[16:49:09] <jmkasunich> I'm wrapping the PLC in the HAL metaphore
[16:49:15] <alex_joni_> and we thought of the opposite
[16:49:21] <jmkasunich> yep
[16:50:22] <jmkasunich> I must admit the PLC metaphore does a better job of handling scheduling of execution - everybody know rungs run from top to bottom
[16:50:25] <alex_joni_> but I think they both would work
[16:50:39] <jmkasunich> but I think the HAL metaphore does a better job of handling interconnect
[16:51:18] <alex_joni_> if you bring hal into the PLC, you need a lot of code to interconnect stuff
[16:51:36] <alex_joni_> if you bring the PLCS into HAL, you only need to export pins/params
[16:51:42] <jmkasunich> this is starting to look amazingly like an Automax
[16:51:44] <alex_joni_> using the HAL-api
[16:51:53] <alex_joni_> what's an automax?
[16:52:05] <SteveStallings> I thought there was no precedence of rungs in a ladder, thought it acts like a state machine, evaluate all, output all....
[16:52:15] <jmkasunich> Automax is a late 80's PLC system from Reliance electric
[16:52:35] <rayh> * rayh got a phone call from grandkid in Germany. Will keep watching
[16:52:38] <jmkasunich> Steve - rungs are evaluated from top to bottom, to avoid race conditions
[16:53:40] <alex_joni_> jmk: what if you have only one ladder inside hal
[16:54:00] <jmkasunich> I think folks are gonna want more
[16:54:08] <jmkasunich> let me give you the quick intro to Automax
[16:54:11] <alex_joni_> and that ladder has more rungs inside...
[16:54:47] <jmkasunich> huh?
[16:55:25] <jmkasunich> most ladders have more than one rung, some have hundreds
[16:56:27] <jepler> I just read this on "DIY-CNC": Second, Power (Watts) equals (RPM times in-oz) / 1351. That makes it 15 RPM times 370 in-oz or 5,550. Divide that by 1351 and you get 4.1 Watts.
[16:56:52] <jepler> Why would this equation be true of any (stepper) motor?
[16:57:03] <jmkasunich> I think it's true of any motor, period
[16:57:23] <alex_joni_> anybody heard of gEDA?
[16:57:25] <jepler> I don't understand why
[16:57:47] <jmkasunich> I know the same equation as "power(HP) = torque(ftbs) * speed(RPM) / 5252
[16:58:13] <alex_joni_> seems gEDA is a GPL suite for design
[16:58:30] <jmkasunich> s/ftbs/ft-lbs/
[16:58:32] <SteveStallings> Power (as in mechanical power delivered to the load) equals force through distance. The magic constants result from the required units conversions.
[16:58:32] <alex_joni_> it contains gschem (schematic editor)
[16:58:39] <alex_joni_> http://www.geda.seul.org/screenshots/index.html
[16:58:59] <jmkasunich> yes alex, I downloaded and compiled it a while back, but never got time to dig deeper
[16:59:14] <jmkasunich> that was my leading candidate for a HAL schematic capture front end
[16:59:53] <alex_joni_> * alex_joni_ look sinto that
[17:00:07] <alex_joni_> * alex_joni_ looks into that
[17:00:19] <alex_joni_> darn.. I haven't used this keyboard in a while...
[17:00:47] <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> good afternoon people.
[17:00:49] <jmkasunich> jepler: power = torque * speed, the different constants are because of the different units for power, speed, and torque
[17:01:26] <jmkasunich> I trust the HP/ft-lbs/5252 version, I would have to run the math for the watts/oz-in/1351 version
[17:01:34] <jepler> hm, OK, I can get the given number out of units(1): $ units "2 pi oz in gravity / minute" "watt"
[17:02:09] <jmkasunich> 1 ft-lb = 12 * 16 oz-in
[17:02:15] <jmkasunich> 1 HP = 746 watts
[17:03:02] <jmkasunich> the 1351 checks out: 5252 * (12*16) / 746 = 1351
[17:04:00] <jmkasunich> got the log, thanks Steve
[17:04:58] <jmkasunich> seems the PLC/HAL discussion has quieted down...
[17:05:09] <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> does anyone happen to know how to remove grub/lilo like programs off a HD?
[17:05:23] <jmkasunich> erase the MBR?
[17:05:58] <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> jmkasunich, how do you do that within DOS?
[17:06:01] <alex_joni_> boot a doze bootdisk
[17:06:04] <jepler> A-L-P-H-A_laptop: You "remove" one bootloader by installing another one instead
[17:06:12] <alex_joni_> and run fdisk /mbr
[17:06:19] <alex_joni_> it'll clear out the mbr
[17:06:19] <jepler> "FDISK/MBR" was the incantation with DOS, to install the default DOS master boot record
[17:06:23] <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> alex_joni_, thanks. I'll it out.
[17:06:33] <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> try
[17:06:52] <alex_joni_> ;)
[17:06:59] <jmkasunich> ok, some background info... AutoMax
[17:07:00] <alex_joni_> jepler : you need a space in there
[17:07:10] <jmkasunich> a PLC from the late 80s
[17:07:18] <jmkasunich> you could define any number of tasks
[17:07:28] <jmkasunich> each task was either ladder, block, or basic
[17:07:47] <jmkasunich> all IO points (analog, digital, whatever) were global, and had user defined names
[17:08:13] <jmkasunich> so the third input on a DIO card would not be DIO:3, it could be called "limit_switch_in"
[17:08:27] <jepler> alex_joni_: You sure?
[17:08:34] <jmkasunich> _any_ task, whether ladder, block, or basic, could access any IO point
[17:08:47] <alex_joni_> * alex_joni_ thinks of an hal-alis command ;)
[17:08:57] <jmkasunich> you could also define internal named variables, that were accessed just like IO points
[17:09:12] <jmkasunich> ladders were ladders, obviously, and mostly handled digital logic
[17:09:17] <alex_joni_> jepler: "FDISK/MBR -> FDISK /MBR"
[17:09:25] <dave-e> good discussion here....I'm going to go to the shop but log.
[17:09:44] <jmkasunich> block tasks were collections of functional blocks, like PID, etc... analogous to HAL stepgen and such
[17:09:51] <jepler> alex_joni_: in COMMAND.COM you never needed the space, because options always started with space
[17:09:58] <jmkasunich> and basic tasks were just that - programs written in basic
[17:10:32] <jmkasunich> each task had a priority and a execution rate
[17:11:35] <alex_joni_> jepler: might be ;) but I don't think a newer command.com still allows you that
[17:12:13] <jmkasunich> if you guys are gonna argue about DOS syntax I'm going back outside
[17:12:16] <jmkasunich> ;-)
[17:12:16] <jepler> alex_joni_: Bah, who is using anything newer than DOS 6.22?
[17:12:44] <jepler> "dir/od" works as expected in my XP's CMD.EXE actually
[17:12:56] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich will be back later
[17:13:01] <jepler> jmkasunich: bye
[17:13:14] <alex_joni_> not gonna rgue about dos anymore
[17:13:38] <alex_joni_> we all agree that it sux... ;)
[17:14:01] <jmkasunich> I liked DOS better than windows
[17:14:09] <jmkasunich> but I really do have to get outside...
[17:14:40] <jmkasunich> I'll be back once I get a rack in the basement
[17:16:03] <SteveStallings> jepler - just in case you overlooked it, stepper motor specs are usually stated as holding torque. Putting that number into a power calculation is not valid. You need the torque from a torque vs. speed curver at the desired speed in order to compute watts.
[17:17:44] <jepler> SteveStallings: yeah, I have some experience with that, I had just never thought that there was a simple numeric conversion from rpm oz-in to watts...
[17:22:01] <alex_joni_> I kinda like this: the make process downloads the missing sources from some ftp
[17:22:05] <alex_joni_> ;)
[17:22:15] <alex_joni_> * alex_joni_ is talking about gEDA
[17:24:30] <alex_joni_> the installer would be nice to add to emc2 too
[17:30:59] <jmkasunich> it's really annoying when 98% of the fasteners in a piece of equipment are in inches, and the last 2% are metric (or vice-versa)
[17:31:09] <alex_joni_> yeah...
[17:31:12] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich is making too many trips in and out for tools
[17:31:21] <alex_joni_> jmk: what did you think of the installer for gEDA?
[17:31:44] <jmkasunich> it's been months (maybe a year), I don't remember it
[17:31:57] <jmkasunich> going out in the cold again
[17:32:07] <alex_joni_> it's very nice now...
[17:32:23] <alex_joni_> I'd recomend people to check it out... it would be a nice feature for emc2
[17:46:21] <rayh> * rayh is away: I'm busy
[17:51:12] <SteveStallings> steve is away - shoveling snow
[17:57:58] <alex_joni_> jmk: what hal_ def should I use for double?
[17:58:26] <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> wish it was warmer outside... [like not snowing, sunny, +18 oC...] so I could play with my mig welder.. kinda want to just weld something...
[17:58:28] <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> strange urge.
[17:59:07] <alex_joni_> alpha: did the fdisk stuff work?
[17:59:16] <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> to be honest, I haven't gotten out of bed.
[17:59:50] <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> hi gezr
[18:00:14] <alex_joni_> hello gezr
[18:00:24] <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> alex_joni_ I'll try it after I make some bacon and eggs...
[18:00:50] <alex_joni_> bare in mind that you can't access you rlinux partitions after that
[18:01:02] <alex_joni_> and with the dos fdisk you can't delete them aswell
[18:02:41] <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> I just want the drive to be like a fresh one, so I can install whatever I wish afterwards.
[18:03:13] <alex_joni_> I suggest booting into linux, and deleting the partitions first
[18:03:47] <alex_joni_> using linux fdisk
[18:03:49] <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> 'ight.. I'll load up knoppix
[18:03:49] <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> and kill everything on that drive then.
[18:03:54] <alex_joni_> * alex_joni_ did this once and it works (to delete all partitions from a running linux)
[18:07:59] <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> I don't think it has any partitions left that Dos can delete... my father decided to try it on his own on an old HD of mine...
[18:09:44] <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> what are people's EMC boxes like? I'd like to be able to have a DOS bootup, and RTLinux for EMC or EMC2 [to learn]. Would this be hard to do?
[18:09:58] <alex_joni_> I'd go with rtai
[18:10:23] <alex_joni_> as for the box, an 133-200 MHz should do it
[18:10:38] <alex_joni_> but you'll compile a few days on it (kernel, rtai, etc)
[18:10:45] <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> I have a 1.3gHz athalon... or was it the 700. or 900? I forget now
[18:10:56] <alex_joni_> that's more than enough
[18:11:04] <alex_joni_> I have a 1.4 G athlon
[18:11:06] <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> yeah, I'd hope so.
[18:11:11] <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> Time: 13:11:07 -0500 GMT, Windows XP Professional, Service Pack 2 (5.1 - 2600), AMD XP 2800+ running at (1-Intel Pentium 4, 1993MHz, 512KB (0% Load)), DDR400 RAM Usage: 153/256MB (59.77%), C: 9.13gb of 19.53gb free, D: 0gb of 0gb free, E: 17.38gb of 17.73gb free, Current Uptime: 1day 17hrs 23mins 18secs, Record Uptime: 2wks 3days 8hrs 23mins 1sec, 3 Samsung 19" flat monitors (1 Trinitron, 2 CRT).
[18:11:15] <alex_joni_> and a 300MHz SBC
[18:11:17] <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> oops. that lies.
[18:12:05] <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> Time: 13:11:59 -0500 GMT, Windows XP Professional, Service Pack 2 (5.1 - 2600), Intel Pentium M 2.0gHz running at (1-Intel Pentium 4, 1993MHz, 512KB (0% Load)), DDR333 RAM Usage: 153/256MB (59.77%), C: 9.13gb of 19.53gb free, ; D: 0gb of 0gb free, E: 17.38gb of 17.73gb free, Current Uptime: 1day 17hrs 24mins 10secs, Record Uptime: 2wks 3days 8hrs 23mins 1sec, 3 Samsung 19" flat monitors (1 Trinitron, 2 CRT).
[18:12:23] <alex_joni_> centrino?
[18:12:38] <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> No, pentium M. not centrino.
[18:12:43] <alex_joni_> ahh
[18:12:45] <alex_joni_> ok ;)
[18:12:56] <alex_joni_> I have a 1.4GHz centrino on my laptop
[18:13:11] <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> I honestly don't know the difference between the centrino and the pentium M.
[18:13:39] <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> I use the laptop to play, if I need the power, I use my desktop.
[18:13:41] <A-L-P-H-A> Time: 13:12:47 -0500 GMT, Windows XP Professional, Service Pack 2 (5.1 - 2600), AMD XP 2800+ running at (1-AMD , 2123MHz, 512KB (22% Load)), DDR400 RAM Usage: 638/1024MB (62.30%), C: 59.84gb of 75.42gb free, D: 21.77gb of 39.05gb free, E: 141.82gb of 372.62gb free, Current Uptime: 1wk 2days 1hr 36mins 45secs, Record Uptime: 3wks 6hrs 56mins 16secs, 3 Samsung 19" flat monitors (1 Trinitron, 2 CRT).
[18:14:02] <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> I have got to edit the laptop's strings completely.
[18:17:09] <alex_joni_> the pentium M is a modified pentium 4
[18:17:18] <alex_joni_> the centrino is a completely new architecture
[18:17:24] <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> ahh.
[18:17:27] <alex_joni_> designed from the ground up for mobile
[18:17:38] <alex_joni_> I had a 2.66 GHz pentium 4 laptop
[18:17:48] <alex_joni_> with a desktop processor in it
[18:18:02] <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> must have been warm to work with.
[18:18:05] <alex_joni_> and I changed it with the 1.4 centrino I have now
[18:18:12] <alex_joni_> almost the same speed
[18:18:23] <alex_joni_> the processor is a tiny bit slower
[18:18:29] <alex_joni_> but overall it's much better
[18:18:32] <alex_joni_> :)
[18:18:38] <alex_joni_> almost no cooler-activity
[18:18:45] <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> I don't even know why I bought this laptop.
[18:18:47] <alex_joni_> 4h uptime
[18:18:55] <alex_joni_> it's a lot lighter
[18:19:01] <alex_joni_> and it's got a dvd-burner
[18:19:39] <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> I have a notebook backpack from MEC.ca so weight isn't htat much of an issue with me. If I had an attache case instead, maybe I'd worry more.
[18:20:35] <alex_joni_> my eyes are all watery
[18:20:45] <alex_joni_> I made sushi today...
[18:20:50] <alex_joni_> too much wasabi :D
[18:21:11] <alex_joni_> it's hoooot, but nice
[18:21:31] <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> wasabi isn't hot... it's sharp. :)
[18:21:57] <alex_joni_> this one is hot
[18:22:09] <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> time to actually get out of bed...
[18:22:11] <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> bbl
[18:30:21] <anonimasu> hello
[18:30:26] <anonimasu> :)
[18:30:31] <alex_joni_> hey an0n
[18:30:55] <anonimasu> * anonimasu is re-compiling the kernel now
[18:30:59] <anonimasu> with rtai+adeos :)
[18:31:03] <alex_joni_> cool
[18:31:31] <anonimasu> now the question is where do I point --with-rtai= when ./configuring emc
[18:32:36] <alex_joni_> actually you shouldn't
[18:32:59] <alex_joni_> the ./configure should figure it out
[18:33:09] <alex_joni_> * alex_joni_ talks about emc2
[18:33:17] <anonimasu> hm.. I do too..
[18:33:21] <anonimasu> an0n@localhost:~/emc2$ ./configure
[18:33:24] <anonimasu> checking for RT dir...
[18:33:34] <alex_joni_> and? ... not found?
[18:33:44] <alex_joni_> you need to make and install rtai
[18:33:46] <alex_joni_> make
[18:33:48] <alex_joni_> make install
[18:33:55] <anonimasu> configure: error: RT not found, try to specify one by --with-rtai=<path>, --with-rtlinux=<path>, --with-rtlinuxpro=<path>
[18:33:59] <anonimasu> I did that already..
[18:34:06] <anonimasu> although I am not running the rtai kernel right now
[18:34:07] <alex_joni_> did it install to /usr/realtime ?
[18:34:17] <anonimasu> no
[18:34:24] <alex_joni_> but where?
[18:34:43] <alex_joni_> what rtai do you have?
[18:34:50] <alex_joni_> the 24.1.x one?
[18:34:54] <anonimasu> rtai-24.1.13
[18:34:56] <alex_joni_> or rtai-3.x ?
[18:35:02] <alex_joni_> bummer.. pretty old
[18:35:11] <alex_joni_> there is a make realtimeinstall
[18:35:23] <alex_joni_> don't remember how it's called exactly
[18:35:36] <alex_joni_> make sure you copy the sources to /usr/src/rtai...
[18:35:43] <alex_joni_> it'll work like that too
[18:35:56] <alex_joni_> * alex_joni_ is away: gotta leave for a while
[18:36:03] <alex_joni_> I'll be back later
[18:36:05] <anonimasu> ok
[18:36:54] <anonimasu> ah.. there it was :)
[18:40:18] <anonimasu> brb
[18:41:17] <gezr> morning yall
[18:58:57] <dave-e> ray...you there?
[18:59:58] <alex_joni_> * alex_joni_ is back
[19:00:08] <alex_joni_> bugger it...
[19:00:21] <alex_joni_> I managed to slam the car door over my finger
[19:00:26] <dave-e> talent?
[19:00:33] <dave-e> like ouch
[19:00:42] <anonimasu> ouch
[19:00:43] <alex_joni_> like really ouch
[19:00:50] <alex_joni_> it even closed fully
[19:01:18] <anonimasu> :/
[19:06:32] <anonimasu> hm lets see if it compiles :)
[19:06:34] <alex_joni_> what tcl/tk did you install?
[19:06:34] <anonimasu> the one from the debian package..
[19:06:35] <anonimasu> latest.. stable..
[19:06:36] <anonimasu> I belive
[19:06:37] <alex_joni_> ok, should be pretty new
[19:06:42] <anonimasu> 8.5
[19:06:50] <alex_joni_> I only have 7.4
[19:06:51] <alex_joni_> :D
[19:07:01] <alex_joni_> hope ./configure works for 8.5
[19:07:14] <anonimasu> :)
[19:07:35] <alex_joni_> if it doesn't .. blame me :)
[19:07:49] <anonimasu> just need the dev libs..
[19:08:08] <anonimasu> I should write a howto on how to do this :)
[19:08:14] <alex_joni_> you could...
[19:08:15] <alex_joni_> ;)
[19:08:22] <alex_joni_> I did once
[19:08:28] <anonimasu> I wonder if it's be useful..
[19:08:30] <alex_joni_> but I can't find it anymore :)
[19:08:38] <alex_joni_> it's very system specific
[19:09:04] <anonimasu> but once libnml is fixed it's a problem anymore
[19:10:03] <anonimasu> cc1: /usr/src/rtai-24.1.13/scripts/realtime-config/include: Not a directory
[19:15:11] <anonimasu> it thought my realtime-config was the includes dir..
[19:15:11] <alex_joni_> ./configure should have found it by itself thou
[19:15:11] <anonimasu> yeah
[19:15:11] <anonimasu> but that might be the problem with the fact that my rtai is old..
[19:15:11] <anonimasu> :)
[19:15:14] <alex_joni_> there is "make install_rt_devel"
[19:15:18] <alex_joni_> inside rtai
[19:15:24] <alex_joni_> it should work with this rtai too
[19:15:36] <alex_joni_> I have a 24.1.14 and it works
[19:15:57] <anonimasu> ah now :)
[19:16:07] <anonimasu> didnt see that in the readme..
[19:16:20] <alex_joni_> what?
[19:16:30] <anonimasu> make install_rt_devel
[19:16:32] <anonimasu> :)
[19:16:35] <alex_joni_> ;)
[19:16:45] <alex_joni_> it should copy stuff to /usr/realtime
[19:16:49] <alex_joni_> that's the default
[19:16:57] <anonimasu> yep
[19:16:59] <alex_joni_> for rtai-24.1.x and for rtai-3.x
[19:17:06] <anonimasu> it dosent say there's a make install_rt_devel..
[19:17:08] <anonimasu> :)
[19:17:16] <alex_joni_> why did you chose 24.1.13?
[19:17:19] <anonimasu> I miss my zsh modification..
[19:17:32] <anonimasu> I didnt know which one to use..
[19:18:12] <alex_joni_> I would have gotten a 3.0x one
[19:21:32] <anonimasu> I might upgrade it tomorrow..
[19:21:32] <anonimasu> :)(
[19:21:32] <alex_joni_> I have 3.0r4 here right now
[19:21:35] <alex_joni_> if it works... it's not worth the effort
[19:21:35] <anonimasu> it does..
[19:21:35] <anonimasu> but I need to reboot with my new and shuny kernel ;)
[19:21:35] <alex_joni_> you need to recompile kernel & stuff
[19:21:35] <alex_joni_> hopefully without oopses
[19:21:35] <anonimasu> insmod: error inserting '/home/an0n/emc2/rtlib/hal_lib.o': -1 Invalid module format
[19:21:35] <anonimasu> ERROR: Could not load 'rtapi'
[19:21:35] <anonimasu> ERROR: Could not load 'hal_lib'
[19:21:35] <anonimasu> yep..
[19:21:35] <anonimasu> already done that.. I just have to reboot :)
[19:21:35] <anonimasu> brb..
[19:21:35] <alex_joni_> o0k
[19:31:53] <robin_s> robin_s is now known as robin_sz
[19:32:04] <robin_sz> meep
[19:32:58] <gezr> robin_sz : oh cool, I was just thinking about you
[19:33:32] <alex_joni_> meep indeed
[19:33:48] <robin_sz> * robin_sz bounces
[19:33:54] <gezr> robin_sz : hey, when you talk about blasting all together, I have a question about my generator, should I disassemble it or try and do it together, and tape off what I can or just do it with care, and then blow out any glass left over inside?
[19:34:54] <gezr> the thing is exposed to teh atmosphere and I would expect them to accept a certian level of contamination
[19:34:57] <robin_sz> its a car style one isnt it? with like holes to the outside world?
[19:35:07] <gezr> yeah
[19:35:14] <robin_sz> hmmm
[19:35:20] <robin_sz> and you REALLY sure
[19:35:25] <robin_sz> you wann blast it?
[19:35:44] <gezr> no Im not
[19:35:58] <robin_sz> id go fir NOT then
[19:36:01] <alex_joni_> can anybody tell me how to change the nick in KSirc?
[19:36:25] <gezr> doesnt /nick newnickname work?
[19:36:37] <alex_joni_> alex_joni_ is now known as alex_joni
[19:36:38] <robin_sz> lets face it ... what you are about to do is the mechanical equivalent of open heart surgery on your bike .. and then kicking the bits about a desert for a while :)
[19:37:08] <gezr> robin_sz : yeah, during a dust storm at that
[19:37:11] <alex_joni> better now
[19:37:14] <robin_sz> quite
[19:37:55] <robin_sz> personally, Id bolt the outside cases up as much as posible and REALLY plaug all the external holes ... then Id blast it as one lump
[19:38:09] <robin_sz> IME, tape lasts about 0.3 seconds
[19:38:12] <gezr> It doesnt really matter I guess, it would be nice to have a shinny like new power plant, then again, it doesnt matter if it doesnt run
[19:38:28] <robin_sz> hmmm
[19:38:45] <gezr> i mean why make it shine if I cant make it run
[19:38:58] <alex_joni> first make it run..
[19:39:04] <alex_joni> then.. maybe make it shiny
[19:39:04] <robin_sz> * robin_sz nods
[19:39:11] <alex_joni> but if it runs...
[19:39:12] <gezr> ill clean up the stuff I should and can clean, get it all together, and if it lasts a few years I can do it again
[19:39:14] <A-L-P-H-A> A-L-P-H-A is now known as alpha_snow_blind
[19:39:16] <alex_joni> don't touch it
[19:39:22] <robin_sz> well, making some bits shiny is easy now
[19:39:27] <robin_sz> * robin_sz lurrrrvrvs snow
[19:39:42] <gezr> they say a brewmasters cleaner stuff works I think
[19:39:51] <alpha_snow_blind> robin_sz... well... you are more than welcome to shovel my driveway next time. :)
[19:40:04] <gezr> that would be the shiz, most stuff that touches that aluminum turns it an odd grey color
[19:40:07] <robin_sz> shovel? .. thats a GURLS way of clearing snow
[19:44:03] <alpha_snow_blind> if I ever buy house that hasn't yet had the driveway paved... I'm going to get a heated driveway and pathway.
[19:44:03] <alex_joni> you need to plans some big crackers before snowfall
[19:44:03] <alpha_snow_blind> let it run allllllll night when it's snowing... so the snow just melts and flows away
[19:44:03] <alex_joni> s/plans/plant/
[19:44:03] <alpha_snow_blind> alex_joni. that made no sense to me.
[19:44:03] <alex_joni> big fireworks
[19:44:03] <gezr> haHAHAHA
[19:44:03] <alpha_snow_blind> i'm lost.
[19:44:03] <alex_joni> once you have enough snow.. just blow them up
[19:44:03] <robin_sz> alpha_snow_blind: forming a wet river on the sidewalk .. which freezes. your neighbour slips and sues you.
[19:44:03] <alex_joni> it'll clean out everything
[19:44:03] <alpha_snow_blind> robin_sz, I have no sidewalk. :)
[19:44:03] <gezr> wouldn't a gas powered snow blower cost thousands less then an installed heat system?
[19:44:03] <robin_sz> * robin_sz nods
[19:44:03] <alex_joni> robin: I think his heated driveway would be very heated
[19:44:03] <robin_sz> wasy to build too
[19:44:03] <alex_joni> water simply vaporizes
[19:44:06] <alex_joni> :D
[19:44:06] <alpha_snow_blind> that would take lots of energy... but I like it.
[19:44:06] <robin_sz> * robin_sz specs his snow-blower
[19:44:06] <alpha_snow_blind> maybe flame throwers on the curb way too...
[19:44:06] <robin_sz> small-block chevy
[19:44:06] <alpha_snow_blind> hmm!!! AWESOME idea... snowblower + flamer thrower in one.
[19:44:06] <robin_sz> with nitrous
[19:44:06] <gezr> with a snow blower you could charge your neighbors
[19:44:06] <gezr> hahaha, a blown snow blower
[19:44:06] <alpha_snow_blind> my next door neightbour is an ass.
[19:44:06] <robin_sz> ahh.
[19:44:06] <robin_sz> then
[19:44:06] <robin_sz> you need ...
[19:44:06] <robin_sz> JET ENGINE
[19:44:14] <gezr> and blow it all into your neighbors yard
[19:44:17] <robin_sz> now ... thats waht I call a snow blower :)
[19:44:21] <alpha_snow_blind> hehe... I soooo want to make a jet engine... a tiny one...
[19:44:25] <alex_joni> * alex_joni would advise to buy an afterburner too
[19:44:28] <gezr> pop the garrage, fire it up
[19:49:38] <alpha_snow_blind> I wonder if I could...
[19:49:41] <alex_joni> hmmm.. .these loggers seem to come in pairs
[19:49:41] <alex_joni> I think they hooked-up
[19:49:41] <alex_joni> lol
[19:49:41] <alpha_snow_blind> heh
[19:49:41] <alpha_snow_blind> ears are so cold.
[19:49:41] <robin_sz> 4yr old comes in .. "daddy, what would you like for tea?" .. I tell him "a potato and some ketchup" ..
[19:49:41] <alpha_snow_blind> hahahaha
[19:49:43] <alpha_snow_blind> rolf.
[19:49:48] <alex_joni> lol
[19:49:50] <alpha_snow_blind> you are going to confuse your kid sooo much
[19:49:52] <alpha_snow_blind> lol
[19:49:54] <robin_sz> he goes out and yells downstairs .. "mum .. make daddy a potato and soem ketchup!" ... thats training that is .. get em young ;))
[20:35:08] <rayh> Darn I'm not getting full debug on this one I'll drop back to 46.
[20:36:16] <rayh> Moving to 220b
[20:36:27] <rayh> With you in a minute or two.
[20:36:32] <alex_joni> I think I'm doing smthg wrong
[20:37:01] <jmkasunich> I have my emc2/tkemc running, what exactly was the question?
[20:37:16] <alex_joni> if you hit spindle_reverse
[20:37:20] <alex_joni> does it say reverse?
[20:37:44] <jmkasunich> nope - the button continues to say forward
[20:38:00] <jmkasunich> off -> off
[20:38:07] <jmkasunich> forward -> forward
[20:38:10] <jmkasunich> reverse -> forward
[20:38:16] <alex_joni> that's what I asked
[20:39:32] <alex_joni> wtf
[20:39:48] <alex_joni> now when starting emc I get a "motion>" prompt
[20:39:53] <jmkasunich> looking at the tcl now, trying to find the code that displays the button
[20:39:59] <jmkasunich> hmmm
[20:40:05] <alex_joni> bugger
[20:40:09] <jmkasunich> that means you started usrmot I think
[20:40:11] <alex_joni> I uncommented usrmot
[20:40:16] <alex_joni> instead of tkemc
[20:40:18] <alex_joni> :)
[20:40:21] <jmkasunich> bugger? you're starting to talk like a brit
[20:40:37] <alex_joni> I've been around paul too much ;)
[20:40:39] <rayh> Near the bottom of the file in a process named update????
[20:41:45] <alex_joni> rayh: does it work properly for you?
[20:41:53] <alex_joni> pushing spindle_reverse ?
[20:42:08] <asdfqwega> Ach, crivens!
[20:42:39] <asdfqwega> I'm going to have to send in an email so Paul will know...
[20:42:43] <rayh> I'm not able to get emc2 going right now.
[20:43:27] <alex_joni> ok.. I'll dig further
[20:43:44] <jmkasunich> I have tkemc.tcl open in an editor, and tkemc/emc2 running
[20:43:46] <jmkasunich> anything I can do?
[20:43:51] <asdfqwega> emc-0.0.1-11.deb = works, but can only run EMC once - run again after closing, system freezes
[20:43:59] <rayh> if {[emc_spindle] == "forward"} {
[20:43:59] <rayh> set spindlelabel "SPINDLE FORWARD"
[20:43:59] <rayh> } elseif {[emc_spindle] == "reverse"} {
[20:43:59] <rayh> set spindlelabel "SPINDLE REVERSE"
[20:43:59] <rayh> } elseif {[emc_spindle] == "off"} {
[20:44:00] <rayh> set spindlelabel "SPINDLE OFF"
[20:44:02] <rayh> } elseif {[emc_spindle] == "increase"} {
[20:44:03] <rayh> set spindlelabel "SPINDLE INCREASE"
[20:44:05] <rayh> } elseif {[emc_spindle] == "decrease"} {
[20:44:07] <rayh> set spindlelabel "SPINDLE DECREASE"
[20:44:10] <rayh> } else {
[20:44:12] <rayh> set spindlelabel "SPINDLE ?"
[20:44:14] <rayh> }
[20:44:16] <alex_joni> ok ok
[20:44:27] <rayh> That's the tickle that changes the definitions of spindlelabel
[20:44:48] <alex_joni> and emc_spindle comes from where?
[20:45:12] <alex_joni> there is a emcioStatus.spindle. struct
[20:45:18] <rayh> emc_spindle is a command sent to and interpreted by emcsh.
[20:45:20] <alex_joni> it's got direction as a pin
[20:46:06] <alex_joni> I think the spindlelable is set by the feedback from the io-stuff
[20:46:12] <alex_joni> and that's not correct
[20:46:35] <rayh> emc_spindle (none) | forward | reverse | increase | decrease | constant | off
[20:46:36] <rayh> With no arg, returns the value of the spindle state as "forward",
[20:46:36] <rayh> "reverse", "increase", "decrease", or "off". With arg, sends the spindle
[20:46:36] <rayh> command. Note that "increase" and "decrease" will cause a speed change in
[20:46:36] <rayh> the corresponding direction until a "constant" command is sent.
[20:47:07] <rayh> that's from emcsh.cc
[20:47:31] <jmkasunich> looks like emcStatus->io.spindle.direction is the key
[20:48:03] <alex_joni> I agree
[20:48:08] <alex_joni> I know what's wrong
[20:48:19] <alex_joni> the spindle_on has no test for negative speeds
[20:48:30] <alex_joni> and the direction is always 0
[20:48:53] <alex_joni> the EMC_SPINDLE_REVERSE_TYPE messages never get sent
[20:49:03] <alex_joni> I'm not sure why those exist
[20:49:22] <jmkasunich> probably to make us confused
[20:49:48] <alex_joni> I'll fix it soon
[20:49:59] <robin_sz> * robin_sz hands alex_joni a hammer
[20:50:28] <alex_joni> that did help
[20:52:29] <CIA-9> 03alex_joni * 10emc2/src/emc/iotask/simIoControl.cc: fixed a bug that prevented GUI's from showing the reverse direction of the spindle
[20:53:29] <gezr> sigh, it would appear that I dont have a valve cover
[20:53:40] <alex_joni> jmk: short question
[20:54:06] <jmkasunich> shoot
[20:54:07] <alex_joni> is it safe to do *(iocontrol_data->spindle_out)++; ??
[20:54:18] <alex_joni> where spindle_out is a float
[20:54:32] <robin_sz> ooh. the HP 'LightScribe' cd technology looks kewl
[20:54:56] <jmkasunich> should be
[20:55:07] <alex_joni> hmmm...
[20:55:11] <jmkasunich> I usually don't use ++ with floats, I'd write it as += 1.0
[20:55:11] <alex_joni> doesn't seem to change
[20:55:17] <alex_joni> ok
[20:55:18] <jmkasunich> but either one should work
[20:55:31] <jmkasunich> that is a HAL pin?
[20:55:46] <alex_joni> yes
[20:56:19] <jmkasunich> try (*(iocontrol_data->spindle_out))++;
[20:56:43] <jmkasunich> I don't know the precedence between * and ++, maybe it's invcrementing the pointer instead of the thing pointed to
[20:57:06] <alex_joni> it works now
[20:57:10] <jmkasunich> parenthesis are cheap, I use them whenever I have any doubt
[20:57:11] <alex_joni> I did the +=1.0;
[20:57:46] <jmkasunich> I think ++ is higher than *
[20:57:47] <alex_joni> works now
[20:57:52] <jmkasunich> cool
[20:58:19] <jmkasunich> yeah.. think about something like this:
[20:58:23] <jmkasunich> char *c;
[20:58:28] <jmkasunich> for (something)
[20:58:36] <jmkasunich> *c++ = 0;
[20:58:53] <jmkasunich> that doesn't increment the thing pointed to by c, it incs c
[21:00:26] <alex_joni> I have one more complain about HAL
[21:00:28] <alex_joni> ;)
[21:00:47] <alex_joni> when I shut down EMC it stopps all my halmeter's
[21:00:52] <alex_joni> that bugs me
[21:01:05] <alex_joni> EMC didn't start them...
[21:02:14] <jmkasunich> that's the run script, not HAL itself
[21:02:21] <alex_joni> I know ;)
[21:02:28] <alex_joni> and I know why that's done
[21:02:38] <jmkasunich> the run script assumes that you're done with EMC, so it does "realtime stop"
[21:02:50] <jmkasunich> so _all_ HAL stuff has to be shut down
[21:03:45] <alex_joni> how's the rework going?
[21:03:50] <alex_joni> refactor
[21:03:55] <jmkasunich> slowly
[21:04:06] <jmkasunich> Jonathan Stark (zwisk) has made much progress
[21:04:10] <jmkasunich> me, not so much
[21:04:24] <alex_joni> I've seen some commit from both of you
[21:04:28] <jmkasunich> I have to dig out from under some other things so I can concentrate on it
[21:05:07] <alex_joni> * alex_joni goes to take a bath
[21:05:18] <alex_joni> I think I'll crash after that
[21:05:20] <CIA-9> 03alex_joni * 10emc2/src/emc/iotask/ioControl.cc: added HAL pins for coolant (mist, flood), lube and spindle (a bunch of them to keep it flexible)
[21:05:39] <alex_joni> CIA is slow today
[21:07:55] <alex_joni> good night guys
[21:08:06] <jmkasunich> good night
[21:28:27] <gezr> found my valve cover
[21:28:50] <gezr> its 80 miles to the south
[21:32:42] <gezr> damn Carson is dead
[21:32:54] <gezr> Jonny that is
[21:39:41] <robin_sz> who?
[21:40:55] <robin_sz> how is les doinbg with segmot? .. last I heard it was just waiitng for limit switches to work?
[21:42:23] <picnet> �/msg robin_sz my z axis rebuild is almost complete,now its using a minitec linear, much stronger - remaining bit is to put a stepper & screw to pull the router up & down.
[21:42:29] <picnet> humm
[21:42:49] <robin_sz> hah
[21:43:26] <robin_sz> good job you did that in a trivial /msg not one of those msgs about the swedish donkey pr0n sites huh?
[21:46:16] <asdfqwega> Bugger.
[21:46:34] <asdfqwega> limits and home switches are not working
[21:47:01] <picnet> definately.
[21:47:10] <picnet> damm ssh connection gets bum characters, which is odd.
[21:47:16] <robin_sz> weird
[21:47:33] <robin_sz> * robin_sz has never seen that
[21:50:34] <asdfqwega> I wonder if emc1 CVS will compile with paul's 2.6-adeos kernel...
[21:51:44] <asdfqwega> I might have to a complete re-install...again! O Woe! O Discordia!
[21:52:25] <robin_sz> pour quoi?
[21:52:53] <robin_sz> ruh roh, wife is singing again
[21:53:35] <robin_sz> sigh ... that means we need to buy more milk
[21:58:18] <picnet> singing?
[22:01:11] <robin_sz> singing ...
[22:01:15] <robin_sz> funny noise
[22:01:19] <robin_sz> curdles milk
[22:01:36] <picnet> ah
[22:03:43] <picnet> you know how direct the finns are? no noises this end...
[22:07:54] <picnet> bbt
[22:08:03] <robin_sz> still having VOIP fun .. got a voip server in london
[22:08:13] <robin_sz> trunked to a bix in the house
[22:08:15] <robin_sz> box
[22:08:22] <A-L-P-H-A> This is horrible. My ways are lining up... I'm getting 0.003 over 3 inches on the Z axis on my lathe... :(
[22:08:26] <A-L-P-H-A> are=aren't
[22:08:45] <A-L-P-H-A> I reoiled everything, and took it off, to measure how I am... but now... argh. :(
[22:09:08] <robin_sz> is it consitent all the way up the bed?
[22:09:43] <A-L-P-H-A> robin_sz... I have no threading attachment. The ways are adjustable... I disassembled the ways to reoil everything.
[22:10:03] <robin_sz> the ways are adjustable? ..
[22:10:07] <robin_sz> * robin_sz ponders
[22:10:15] <A-L-P-H-A> lets see if i can find a picture of my lathe.
[22:11:16] <robin_sz> I presume you have the usual bar of silver steel and a DTI?
[22:11:40] <A-L-P-H-A> I have ground drillrod which I can use.
[22:11:57] <A-L-P-H-A> how am I supposed ot line it up?
[22:12:10] <robin_sz> put rod in chuck
[22:12:16] <robin_sz> put DTI on saddle
[22:12:30] <robin_sz> traverse the rod, D|TI satys constant
[22:12:48] <robin_sz> if it doesnt ... you need to adjust stuff ;)
[22:12:51] <A-L-P-H-A> so, just lots of try and error.
[22:12:53] <A-L-P-H-A> :)
[22:13:09] <robin_sz> try and kee one end fixed ..
[22:13:17] <robin_sz> like say the chuck end
[22:13:21] <A-L-P-H-A> http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.ateliermecanique.ch/parc_de_machines/parc_de_machines_tournage/tour_schaublin_102/images/TOUR102.JPG&imgrefurl=http://www.ateliermecanique.ch/parc_de_machines/parc_de_machines_tournage/tour_schaublin_102/tour_schaublin_102.htm&h=375&w=500&sz=20&tbnid=Jn61S_Q37SwJ:&tbnh=95&tbnw=126&start=10&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dschaublin%2B102%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26c2coff%3D1%26sa%3DG this is like my lathe.
[22:13:28] <robin_sz> then you onl have the other end to mess with
[22:13:55] <A-L-P-H-A> the top way can change the angle... so you can do tapers and stuff.
[22:15:05] <robin_sz> ah yes
[22:15:12] <robin_sz> not the bed/saddle
[22:15:14] <A-L-P-H-A> http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.strm.fr/images/photos/schaublin-102-reconstruit-02.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.strm.fr/francais/schaublin.html&h=400&w=533&sz=39&tbnid=YE5NYgZzodcJ:&tbnh=96&tbnw=127&start=17&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dschaublin%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26c2coff%3D1 would you believe this lathe costs $28K CDN?
[22:15:22] <robin_sz> but the cross-slide
[22:15:29] <A-L-P-H-A> the bed is perfect. the crossslides yeah.
[22:15:35] <robin_sz> well the .. umm top crosssldie
[22:15:53] <robin_sz> well, does it *really* matter if it not 0 degrees?
[22:16:05] <A-L-P-H-A> I'd like it to be perfect. :) hehe.
[22:16:14] <robin_sz> you dont use that to turn stuff though
[22:16:24] <robin_sz> just sort of fine depth setting
[22:16:36] <A-L-P-H-A> I only have 90mm of travel... but if I move 75mm, and it's off by 0.003".
[22:16:39] <A-L-P-H-A> umm.
[22:16:40] <A-L-P-H-A> sec.
[22:16:49] <robin_sz> yes .. I can imagine
[22:16:57] <robin_sz> * robin_sz doesnt think it matters
[22:17:18] <A-L-P-H-A> http://www.dreyfus.ch/schaublin_102n80.html <-- see how this has no thread cutting. So the travel is only based on the cross slides.
[22:17:53] <robin_sz> ahhh
[22:17:55] <robin_sz> right
[22:18:02] <A-L-P-H-A> that's a newer version of my lathe.
[22:18:08] <robin_sz> no big wheel on the apron
[22:18:17] <A-L-P-H-A> stupid lathe that has only 90mm of travel, costing $28K :(
[22:18:24] <robin_sz> heh
[22:18:29] <robin_sz> watchmakers lathe
[22:18:32] <A-L-P-H-A> yeah.
[22:18:41] <A-L-P-H-A> it's Converted to CNC... so I just make it do what I want.
[22:18:53] <robin_sz> with more pedals than a piano
[22:19:00] <A-L-P-H-A> you know... I wouldn't mind making a watch. :) hehe.
[22:19:35] <robin_sz> the down side to cross-slides like that
[22:19:52] <robin_sz> is you cant take any deep cuts when it the upper slide is 'out'
[22:20:52] <robin_sz> not that you take deep cuts on a schaublin
[22:21:22] <A-L-P-H-A> http://www.strm.fr/francais/schaublin.html <-- wait this it the $28K lathe...
[22:21:29] <A-L-P-H-A> the other one was $18K.
[22:21:53] <A-L-P-H-A> plus a ton for shipping. :(
[22:22:25] <jmkasunich> didja ever notice that just about any "clean up" project makes more mess than you had before (at least for a while)?
[22:23:06] <robin_sz> yes
[22:23:08] <robin_sz> well
[22:23:12] <robin_sz> on emc it does
[22:23:24] <jmkasunich> that too ;-)
[22:23:29] <robin_sz> but thats because theres more mess than you first notice :)
[22:23:34] <jmkasunich> but I wasn't talking about emc, I was talking about my basement
[22:23:38] <robin_sz> ick
[22:23:40] <robin_sz> but thats because theres more mess than you first notice :)
[22:23:41] <A-L-P-H-A> jmkasunich, well.. I cleaned up my shop... and it's cleaner... acceptable to show people at least. :)
[22:23:57] <robin_sz> I spent 2 days with a forklift cleaning my shop
[22:23:59] <A-L-P-H-A> this guy is hardcore. http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7729&page=1&pp=5 on a chip drill, he's done this.
[22:24:00] <A-L-P-H-A> hehehe
[22:24:07] <A-L-P-H-A> that's funny to me.
[22:24:19] <A-L-P-H-A> the runnout on the bearings must be massive.
[22:24:23] <jmkasunich> show people? I can barely walk around mine myself...
[22:27:14] <robin_sz> had to buy a wall full of pallet racking in the end to make some storage
[22:28:05] <robin_sz> that reminds me, must fork the bank of oxygen bottles under a tarp
[22:28:51] <robin_sz> before the rep comes and sptts I have them :)
[22:29:02] <A-L-P-H-A> this guy on the CNCZONE actually has done a decent job [in my opinion]
[22:29:21] <robin_sz> yeah, but a VERY specialist machine
[22:29:46] <anonimasu> hehe
[22:29:51] <anonimasu> :)
[22:30:01] <anonimasu> I wouldnt want to show anyone my mill..
[22:30:13] <anonimasu> I've got so much stuff to do.. like re-machine my motor mounts..
[22:30:25] <anonimasu> they are temporary right now..
[22:31:43] <robin_sz> temporay = nasty to look at?
[22:32:04] <gezr> im about to give up on making this whole darn thing shine
[22:32:05] <anonimasu> yeah
[22:32:14] <anonimasu> they arent as rigid as I want the,..
[22:32:24] <robin_sz> gezr: put it back together and ride the SOAB
[22:32:28] <anonimasu> the,..
[22:32:28] <gezr> its much better to only shine what I can, that way I minimize damage :)
[22:32:44] <robin_sz> is it snowing?
[22:32:48] <anonimasu> need re-machine my bearing mounts also..
[22:32:49] <gezr> robin_sz : amen, ill clean what I can easly clean, and go from there,
[22:33:00] <anonimasu> so I'll machine that and the motor mounts out of one piece-..
[22:33:09] <anonimasu> for tensioning the belts..
[22:33:12] <robin_sz> right
[22:33:20] <anonimasu> but I need a boaring head first..
[22:33:34] <robin_sz> coo
[22:33:35] <anonimasu> or well, it arrives next month..
[22:33:36] <anonimasu> :)
[22:33:42] <anonimasu> I've got one ordered
[22:33:48] <gezr> robin_sz : and what doesnt look good, Ill cover with something, maybe chiclen wire, and then ill mount a 2.5kg sledge hammer to it some how,
[22:34:04] <anonimasu> a-l-p-h-a: I am jealous of that lathe
[22:34:14] <gezr> a gun mount like one for an atv would be a bit excessive
[22:34:23] <A-L-P-H-A> that isn't mine.
[22:34:31] <anonimasu> :/
[22:34:31] <A-L-P-H-A> I'll photo mine, and post them up.
[22:34:35] <anonimasu> my lathe is crap
[22:34:39] <robin_sz> * robin_sz searches for a photo of his lathe
[22:34:54] <anonimasu> it's nto rigid enough to do real work on
[22:34:57] <anonimasu> not..
[22:35:10] <jmkasunich> my current project: http://www.tbcs-online.de/assets/images/as4100.jpg
[22:35:23] <jmkasunich> the one on the right - I have two of those racks, making shelves for them
[22:35:23] <anonimasu> jmkasunich: neat
[22:35:26] <robin_sz> http://www.redpoint.org.uk/photos/misc/new_toy.jpg
[22:35:44] <anonimasu> nice lathe aswell
[22:36:03] <gezr> that is so sweet
[22:36:03] <robin_sz> jmkasunich: is that a machine or a rack?
[22:36:28] <jmkasunich> rack - I tossed the servers back in the skip
[22:36:33] <robin_sz> heh
[22:36:35] <anonimasu> I wish I had a lathe like that :)
[22:36:45] <jmkasunich> nice lathe
[22:36:46] <robin_sz> 350gbp I paid ..
[22:36:55] <jmkasunich> interesting QC toolpost
[22:37:04] <robin_sz> with 3 and 4 jawas, toolholders and a facplate
[22:37:18] <robin_sz> jmkasunich: standard piston toolpost, dickson T3
[22:37:18] <anonimasu> robin_sz: I hate you a little ;)
[22:37:23] <anonimasu> robin_sz: *jealous*
[22:37:31] <anonimasu> hehe
[22:37:43] <jmkasunich> standard on your side of the pond maybe
[22:37:49] <anonimasu> lathes like that are 3800$
[22:37:50] <jmkasunich> here the standard is the aloris style
[22:37:52] <anonimasu> over here..
[22:38:13] <anonimasu> super expensive
[22:38:20] <robin_sz> the nice mod on it is the fwd-off-reverse lever
[22:38:23] <jmkasunich> anonimasu: where is "over here"
[22:38:26] <anonimasu> sweden
[22:38:29] <robin_sz> to the right of the apron, that red handle?
[22:38:57] <robin_sz> means you dont lean past the chuck
[22:39:09] <anonimasu> thoose levers are great when you have to change piece..
[22:39:30] <anonimasu> or when you have to check on the piece you are working on
[22:39:30] <anonimasu> :)
[22:39:58] <robin_sz> or when you start it up and the piece leaves by the short route ..
[22:40:07] <anonimasu> hehe :D
[22:40:13] <anonimasu> it's too slow usually
[22:40:22] <robin_sz> jmkasunich: was that full of AS400s before you dumped it?
[22:40:36] <anonimasu> been there done that..
[22:40:37] <gezr> I love the fact the thread engagement is on the propper side, who ever decided to put that on the right side of the saddle is just crazy
[22:40:39] <jmkasunich> dunno, what's an AS400?
[22:40:48] <robin_sz> ibm server
[22:41:01] <jmkasunich> this was DEC, not ibm
[22:41:02] <robin_sz> since the racks an as4100 .. ??
[22:41:04] <robin_sz> k
[22:41:09] <anonimasu> and with a nice gearbox
[22:41:32] <jmkasunich> two boxes, each with 4x 400MHz alpha CPUs on some kind of proprietary backplane
[22:41:34] <anonimasu> I'd love to do threading if I wouldnt have to change gears..
[22:41:40] <jmkasunich> and proprietary memory
[22:41:43] <robin_sz> right
[22:41:51] <jmkasunich> the other rack was an "enterprise storage array
[22:41:53] <anonimasu> it's great :)
[22:41:56] <robin_sz> almost useable ... but not worht the space
[22:42:11] <jmkasunich> something like 30 drives, at 2G each
[22:42:20] <robin_sz> jmkasunich: big disks
[22:42:20] <robin_sz> hah
[22:42:36] <jmkasunich> the racks are worth far more than the contents now
[22:42:37] <robin_sz> almost a whole laptops worth then ;)
[22:42:53] <jmkasunich> there are two full extension ball-bearing shelves
[22:43:00] <robin_sz> nice
[22:43:05] <jmkasunich> soon to hold the compile farm and on of my other rackmount PCs
[22:43:25] <anonimasu> who here did I talk to about bearings?
[22:43:28] <jmkasunich> lots of other brackets that I'm reworking to hold 18mm plywood shelves for storage
[22:43:33] <robin_sz> "help me junk these servers and drives, but dont damage the ball-bearings, theyre worth something" :)
[22:43:46] <jmkasunich> you got it!
[22:44:14] <jmkasunich> actually, the drives were already pulled - corporate data security folks need to wipe them
[22:44:28] <robin_sz> with a hammer hopefully
[22:44:38] <anonimasu> most likely
[22:44:44] <jmkasunich> I just pulled and discarded the cages they mount in (hot pluggable stuff)
[22:45:07] <jmkasunich> no - they have special software that rewrites each sector something like 7 times with random data
[22:47:09] <jmkasunich> it's amazing how fast stuff goes obsolete...
[22:47:24] <jmkasunich> those racks were new in 1997, and probably cost $100K
[22:47:29] <jmkasunich> everything top of the line
[22:48:27] <robin_sz> and now ... dumpster material
[22:48:41] <jmkasunich> yep
[22:49:07] <jmkasunich> there's something about scrapping the computer and keeping the box that seems so... sad
[22:49:24] <robin_sz> sadly they would be wasting their time wiping them ... 60gb isnt worth the effort .. a hammer is quicker
[22:49:36] <anonimasu> yep..
[22:49:44] <anonimasu> drives are almost free nowdays
[22:49:51] <robin_sz> 2gb less than free
[22:49:55] <jmkasunich> they are concerned about corporate data, not the drives themselves
[22:50:04] <anonimasu> yeah but a hammer.
[22:50:30] <jmkasunich> somebody in some office somewhere decided that that isn't good enough
[22:50:36] <anonimasu> if somone wants what they had on the drives they will get it..
[22:50:46] <robin_sz> there are techniques that will read back data after many, many writes over it
[22:50:50] <anonimasu> yep
[22:50:51] <jmkasunich> they prefer procedures that a trained monkey can follow
[22:50:53] <anonimasu> labs.. lots of them..
[22:50:58] <anonimasu> :)
[22:51:03] <robin_sz> I think I read about 16 times
[22:51:19] <robin_sz> even ram too
[22:51:24] <jmkasunich> the sw they use to wipe is approved by the us govt for destroying military data...
[22:51:39] <anonimasu> dosent the govt incinerate the hd's also?
[22:51:44] <jmkasunich> don't know the details, but I'm pretty sure it works
[22:51:46] <jmkasunich> don't know
[22:51:50] <robin_sz> oh, well if the military thinks its safe ...
[22:51:57] <jmkasunich> probalby depends on the nature of the data
[22:52:00] <robin_sz> nothing beats a hammer ;)
[22:52:00] <anonimasu> yep
[22:52:04] <anonimasu> agreed...
[22:52:10] <anonimasu> robin_sz: electromagnetic hammers ^_^
[22:52:38] <jmkasunich> angle grinder on the disk surface
[22:52:40] <robin_sz> reminds me of that german officer in ww2
[22:53:05] <robin_sz> decided that enigma was good, but .. needed to be better
[22:53:27] <robin_sz> issued instructions that the plugs placed at random in the plug-baord ...
[22:53:47] <robin_sz> none could stay in the same place on the next day ..
[22:54:00] <robin_sz> (stop people lazily leaving them where they were before)
[22:54:37] <robin_sz> hence brought the possible combinations down by a factor of 2 or some such :)
[22:55:04] <anonimasu> :D
[22:55:49] <robin_sz> Imust admit, I wa suprised they could read back ram contents
[22:56:15] <anonimasu> residual charge :)
[22:56:26] <robin_sz> yeah
[22:56:39] <robin_sz> kinda burns in if left long enough with the same data
[22:57:15] <robin_sz> flip the chip into test mode, away you go
[22:57:31] <jmkasunich> hi thalx
[22:57:33] <anonimasu> hehe
[22:58:04] <thalx> Greetings.
[22:59:16] <thalx> I've had a failed weekend of laptop upgrading... so back to the old we go!
[23:00:15] <thalx> And I forgot my laptop power supply when I went to Cabin Fever... so I never did get to burn any copies of the latest BDI to hand out.
[23:00:26] <thalx> But apparently that's not such a bad thing?..
[23:00:33] <schnozzy> Has anybody here read 'CNC Robotics' by Geoff Williams?
[23:01:42] <schnozzy> (book on how to build a basic 3-axis CNC machine from scratch)
[23:04:58] <robin_sz> nope
[23:05:00] <robin_sz> not me
[23:05:53] <schnozzy> He uses a L298 and L297 for stepper motor control, I believe, so one wouldn't require an RT O/S. His example uses windows, for instance.
[23:05:57] <robin_sz> half the fun is dreaming stuff up ;)
[23:06:04] <robin_sz> errm
[23:06:14] <robin_sz> thats not making sense
[23:06:15] <schnozzy> Gotta start somewhere (and I'm just starting)
[23:06:29] <schnozzy> it's not?
[23:06:34] <robin_sz> the 298/297 are the motor drive
[23:06:41] <robin_sz> you feed them with pulses
[23:06:58] <robin_sz> those pulses have to come from soemthing all nice and even
[23:07:05] <robin_sz> thats where the RT os comes in
[23:07:16] <schnozzy> I thought that was the point of the stepper ic
[23:07:27] <robin_sz> nope
[23:07:33] <schnozzy> oh
[23:07:39] <schnozzy> hrm
[23:07:42] <robin_sz> it just sits there .. holding th motor in position
[23:07:48] <robin_sz> 1 pulse moves it 1 step
[23:08:10] <robin_sz> the 297 is the logic, the 298 is the power driver
[23:08:24] <schnozzy> well, he has one circuit for the lpt, and one circuit for the driver which has a 297/298. Let me double-check...
[23:08:35] <robin_sz> yes
[23:08:37] <robin_sz> thats right
[23:08:44] <robin_sz> pulses out the LPT
[23:08:54] <robin_sz> thats the way EMC can work too
[23:09:18] <robin_sz> you can generate them with EMC and a RT os ... (smoothenss assured)
[23:09:24] <robin_sz> or use windows
[23:09:37] <robin_sz> (non RT , so sometimes a bit rough)
[23:09:40] <robin_sz> or DOS
[23:09:50] <robin_sz> (often suprisingly good)
[23:09:55] <schnozzy> ah... so then this example is just not 'industrial' in terms of RT performance then
[23:10:01] <schnozzy> I've been windows-free for a while an dI'd like to keep it that way :)
[23:10:11] <robin_sz> kewl :)
[23:10:24] <robin_sz> to be fair, there is some OK 'doze stuff
[23:10:30] <schnozzy> I'm a BSD-guy.
[23:10:35] <robin_sz> but EMC will do the job just fine
[23:10:59] <robin_sz> theres a debain based 'brain dead install'
[23:11:00] <schnozzy> Some of the website stuff was a little vague... does EMC take straight G-code to do it's thing?
[23:11:04] <schnozzy> yah, saw that
[23:11:13] <robin_sz> yeah Gcode in .. movement out
[23:11:32] <schnozzy> there didn't seem to be a lot in the way of FOSS gcode generators.
[23:11:39] <robin_sz> nope :)
[23:11:55] <robin_sz> but theres lots of doze software with crap protection ;)
[23:13:15] <schnozzy> Not that I mind paying for good quality software, I just prefer the free kind.
[23:13:15] <schnozzy> Ever built a CNC machine yourself?
[23:13:22] <robin_sz> thats one place windows does excell, some excellent CAM packages out there ... I know of nothing equivalent really for *nix
[23:13:36] <robin_sz> * robin_sz nods
[23:13:45] <schnozzy> 3 axis or more?
[23:13:59] <robin_sz> 3 axis router .. and about a dozen or so 2 axis plasmas
[23:14:10] <schnozzy> excellent
[23:15:28] <schnozzy> how difficult/expensive was it in general to build the 3 axis?
[23:15:36] <robin_sz> depends ...
[23:15:50] <robin_sz> Mill, router, light duty bals cutter?
[23:15:55] <robin_sz> balsa
[23:16:06] <schnozzy> little heavier than that
[23:16:16] <robin_sz> router? for wood?
[23:16:18] <schnozzy> actually, I hadn't given it much thought to be honest
[23:16:40] <robin_sz> id guess a 4x4 wood router, 2000 bucks
[23:16:42] <schnozzy> I figured that the only difference would be the router that one stuck on there (and possibly cutting fluid for metal)
[23:16:57] <robin_sz> rigidity for metal is greater
[23:17:03] <robin_sz> best start with an old mill
[23:17:29] <robin_sz> wait(1)
[23:17:35] <schnozzy> 'k
[23:18:44] <robin_sz> http://www.lmwatts.com/cnc.html
[23:18:54] <robin_sz> thats Les' big router
[23:19:04] <robin_sz> emc powered, of course
[23:19:49] <robin_sz> someting like that would cost 30K and up
[23:19:50] <schnozzy> checking it out now
[23:20:39] <robin_sz> but .. at the other end of the scale
[23:21:14] <robin_sz> there are sherline mills for $less
[23:21:41] <cradek>
[23:21:47] <robin_sz> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7729&page=1&pp=5
[23:22:05] <robin_sz> bet that cost less than 500 all in
[23:22:20] <robin_sz> * robin_sz detests cnczone
[23:22:31] <robin_sz> damn adverts
[23:24:06] <schnozzy> wow
[23:24:07] <schnozzy> it's a nice looking setup
[23:24:17] <schnozzy> looking...
[23:32:03] <anonimasu> hm, I've solved my problem with the gearbox for mu supercharger.. :)
[23:32:20] <schnozzy> I see
[23:32:20] <schnozzy> Definitely not looking for something as hard-core as Lee's setup. That thing is nuts.
[23:32:20] <schnozzy> though I would like to be able to mill small metal brackets, but that sounds expensive.
[23:32:40] <anonimasu> not nescessarily..
[23:33:27] <anonimasu> * anonimasu stretches
[23:34:34] <anonimasu> I found out how I solve my problem with the supercharger project now :)
[23:35:00] <schnozzy> sounds like a fun project
[23:35:04] <anonimasu> and I talked to my father so getting ceramic bearings will be pretty easy :)
[23:35:34] <anonimasu> yeah, it is :)
[23:35:35] <anonimasu> will be
[23:35:39] <anonimasu> http://www.powerdyne.com/silentdr.htm
[23:35:56] <anonimasu> somthing like that ;)
[23:36:28] <schnozzy> which vehicle?
[23:36:48] <anonimasu> toyota celica gt4
[23:36:49] <anonimasu> ;)
[23:39:47] <anonimasu> turbo+AWD = fun
[23:40:03] <anonimasu> although supercharger + AWD has to be even funnier.. :)
[23:40:06] <schnozzy> neat
[23:40:06] <schnozzy> drive a WRX myself
[23:40:06] <schnozzy> now when you said 'not necessarily', where you speaking to the expense of milling small metal pieces?
[23:40:13] <anonimasu> yeah
[23:41:45] <anonimasu> I have a spare impeller and housing.. off work, otherwise I wouldnt think about building a supercharger.. but throwing the stuff away dosent feel nice :)
[23:42:15] <anonimasu> besides any supercharger costs about $2000
[23:44:33] <anonimasu> how large are thoose pices you are talking about?