How are things going w/ Axis?
well, I use it all the time
I think it works just great
I'm going to start using if to check out G-code
it's definitely good for that
I found that Sagcad can output the code for me
I'll probably set up some combination of SagCad and Axis
darnit, I can't remember how to make autocad go into setup mode at the commandline
is sagcad that japanese one?
but the subtitles are in english :)
did you get it to do anything neat?
yes. I can actually draw profiles with it then generate gcode, one profile at a time
gezr helped me set up vim w/ his syntax highlighting for gcode
so you draw lines and arcs, and it generates that path?
is that what you mean?
so, you draw the profile, click the g-code button, select the path and direction of cut
click through a dialogue box
then the editor pops up with your g-code
it surprised the hell out of me
please tell me exactly what you mean when you say "profile"
I looked at a binary last year and couldn't make heads or tales out of it
compiling it on my system gives me english buttons though
profile as in lines and arcs chained together
they don't have to be closed though
(I'm an autocad user)
I used to be too
I use autocad for that with homemade lisp to output gcode
I use ashlar vellum at work
we just bought ProE linux version though
it's great because you can use "offset" to generate a toolpath from a polyline that represents the part
yes, I use offset a lot (not in sagcad though-haven't figured that one out yet)
are you running acad under native windows environment and moving files to a linux box?
I use acad r12 running on FreeDOS running on QEMU running on Linux
two days before I graduated from college I bought the full version of acad r12 at the student price of $99
best $99 I ever spent
yes acad12 is great
used it a lot some years ago
I have acad2000 but haven't used it much in a couple years
it has a windows version but I never got used to it - always liked the dos version better
the dos version was fast
I have a tablet somewhere that works with it but it takes too much desk space
I (briefly) ran acad for a day job
I have been using Qcad a bit lately to make dxf files for sagcad
It's really hard for me to get used to
so you draw plines in qcad and load the dxf in sagcad to generate gcode?
I used to think it was just a toy, but now it doesn't look too bad
yes you can do that
It works out easier that way
sagcad's drafting is pretty obtuse
are you doing 3d or 2.5d?
but, sagcad has a pretty small footprint and is more interesting than just using command line stuff
it's only 2D
not even 2.5D :)
so how do you specify depths, feeds etc?
do you still have autocad? I could give you my lisp. It's 2.5d
you have to manually insert them in the editor now
sure, I would like that
I still have it on another machine (in the garage at the moment)
I will be using it as soon as the weather gets warmer and I get the shop set up
±documentation at the top of the file
I'll look in my dir to make sure it got there ok
ok got it
let me send a file to use with it to experiment
it cuts out a hole for a DB25 connector
it works great for simple stuff
so, are you a python programmer?
more or less
I like python
I have been studying it for a while, but not really programming
I've done a couple big projects in it, but I'm not sure yet whether I like it
are you a C programmer?
I'm a programmer in lots of things I guess
is working on emc going to burn you out?
programming all the time...
I haven't done much programming in emc - I just fix the bugs that bite me.
I don't really have much interest in developing emc2, sorry to say.
you want to get some machines going then
I have my machine working perfectly with emc now
I made a new 3-axis chopper stepper drive box with spindle control
I'm really happy with it
what chips did you use?
instead of 10ipm on my mini mill, I get 25 now
cool. I've used them in the past
the drivers that came with it ... sucked
what did you have before?
a transistor and resistor per winding
was it commercial?
and a low-voltage power supply
the mill itself and steppers are good
oh yeah. I've delt with them before
but the spindle motor sucks, the controller sucks, the software sucks
a long time ago
so I replaced all that with stuff that doesn't suck
the software is what I used
now it's a great mill
I need to go
your mill isn't *done* at least until you do the spindle speed control and make the spindle go faster
* asdfqwega has rewired his stepper control / parport breakout / PWM laser control
Yes, you too can use Rats-Nest(tm) Technology!
Crivens, this is fugly.
I've got two parports going into the control box
I've got two IDC connectors on the shell, but I split up the ribbon cable and wire everything in the air
So I have this spaghetti tangle ball, and I hold it up with a few wire-ties so the fan can blow on to the driver heatsinks.
The only good thing is, it works...and better than the PCB and proto board I was using.
So I've got it working again...what do I do now?
alex_joni: /me yawns
* anonimasu yawns
* alex_joni agrees
I'm waiting to get off work
so I can try get the mill functioning..
about 2 hours
I have one hour advantage... it's 15:10 here ;)
but I dont know if I should take some time to practice tig welding :)
tig welding is cool
I wish I had a welder like the one at work at home :)
although there's no one that really knows how to weld with it yet..
welding alu is hard :)
* alex_joni really likes microplasma
welding alu is not that hard
but you need an AC one
not really hard
the tig I weld with is a ac one..
the tig's a 350A watercooled new oerlikon unit..
350A is way over for 3mm
about 1cm.. without preheating..
what type of welding?
with or without filler wire?
I'd go around 100-150 A
depends on the weld you need
120 is what I weld with..
still welding alu is hard :) or requires lots of training
stainless is really neat :)
did you see the image of the machine?
yeah.. I just welded some stainless
1.5 mm stainless steel containers
but not manually ;)
I always choose to weld with a robot or automat
this time it wasn't robot
tig is hard with a robot
you mean wire feeder?
because you need to keep the distance to the piece
height is very crucial for TIG
MIG/MAG doesn't really care (5-15mm is pretty ok)
but well, mig dosent compare to tig, either
mig is nicer ;)
you can even weld alu :D
yeah but the welds will look like crap ;)
tig is slow ;) but more accurate
used to have a mig for welding alu here..
not really crap... depends on the welding power source
well, tig is nicer although not in mass production
the company I work for (CLOOS) sold some MIG-Tandem for ALU
it was for the new ICE-trains (Deutsche Bahn)
they weld the side panels of the cars
yeah if you are going to weld lots there are better things then tig..
so they need fast/good alu welds
tig isnt really speedy ;)
yeah... but it's very clean (no noise, no spatter)
good welds also..
but that depends on the welder
but a bad tig weld looks bad :)
so does a bad MIG weld ;)
[13:24:35] <alex_joni> http://www.sudura.ro/pub/a14.jpg
some MIG weld I did a while ago
I've seen wonderful mig welds.. on the outside
that looked like OooOoo inside..
yup.. but not manual ;)
kind of expected that :)
all I do is robot welding...
we mostly do one off stuff where I work so robots isnt a good option :9
probably not ;)
dosent welding alu with mig splatter lots?
not really, if you got a ALU MIG power source
ah in that case I dont know
but when welding alu with a regular normal mig :) it splatters like hell
the ones from CLOOS have a function called ALU-PLUS
MIG with pulse + Alu-Plus
I'd buy a multi-process if I had to buy a welding machine
hm, I'd go for a small tig from like miller..
for home use..
I saw some good offers somone on cnczone bought..
although I dont know if that machine had upslope an
and downslope and things
but there were a model a notch over it that did
they seemed pretty affordable..
this is a great TIG machine: http://www.robcon.ro/sudura/images/glw300ih.jpg
but a lot bigger than home use ;)
looks simmiliar to the one we have at work..
although what do you weld with 300A at home ;)
I'd buy a microplasma for home ;)
0.5A - 80A
I've never seen anything like that
just on some ads..
it's the best
I played once with one, before we shipped it
I didn't even use a welding mask D:
[13:35:09] <alex_joni> http://www.robcon.ro/sudura/images/gl80.jpg
you can weld .1 mm sheets
and it's not very expensive...
around 6k EURO
for home use that's very expensive
I agree... but for industrial use...
the tig I was thinking about costs about 1000eur at max..
I just got a request from a friend
who welds some auto-parts
how thick stuff do you weld with a micrplasma?
you can go up to 2-3mm
depends on the weld you need
well, any kind of weld almost with full penetration..
the advantage is that you have a pilot-arc
you can use a tig like that if you want also..
a microplasma is actually a tig with plasma gas around it
you have 2 gases
one inside (for the plasma)
and one for shielding (like for tig)
[13:41:11] <alex_joni> http://www.twi.co.uk/j32k/protected/band_3/jk7.html
* anonimasu has trouble about a sensor
hold on need to run for a bit
it solved itself
hihi... generally I'm scheptic to such solutions ;)
it was about zeroing the sensor..
I see... well then ;)
I had a talk to my father, about it.. the issue solves itself because the speed of the huydralics will be enough..
to get to a position where the sensor isnt in use..
otherwise you might lock the machine up by waiting for a signal you dont get.. unless I code in a timeout while in motion.. but I'd rather not do that since its not use friendly..
or well I might do it anyway..
although not user configurable..
* alex_joni likes undocumented features :D
they will be documented..
but not in the user manuall ;)
the techie one..
* anonimasu hates things users can set..
sensors are better :9
having sensors instead of times for functions are much more efficient..
but it also increases the cost
the cost isnt compareable to the increase in speed the customer sees..
or well overall effiency..
well then.. go for it ;)
this thing has to go up/down/do its stuff 2000 times per hectar..
a lot of trees :D
at 2kmh you need to do about one every 1,8sec..
which I can do easily, but even 0,5s adds spacing to them..
it's somthing like 5000/600
per sec at 5kmh
but maybe 0.8m..
somwhere around that :9
so every delay is lots..
the work is inspected aswell.. :)
they check while they run so they have a certain number of "good" spots..
in a area of 10x10
every once in a while..
time go head home
I'll see if I get the mill running later
* alex_joni is gone
* alex_joni waves
no one around?
I've got the channel open but I'm trying to work...
don't be scared .. no more NML from me ;)
yeah, jepler's trying to work
* cradek laughs internally at his clever little joke
* alex_joni notes that in his calendar
tracking a UPS package repeatedly should make it come faster
well, if I ruled the world it would.
in my experience it came slower :D
UPS is pretty ok...
I really hate FedEx
at least the romanian office...
around here I think UPS destroys more stuff.
I had an urgent shipment (express or how it's called)
I would never ship anything remotely fragile with them.
and fedex got it to romania in a day,
and I received the package after 5 more days :(
I'd rather have late than destroyed
now that's what I call a "good" service
destoyed = bad packaging ;)
stuck in customs or something?
yeah.. and no interest
I agree - bad packaging is usually, but not always the cause.
they sent us a telegrame we should send them some papers
and that telegramme was sent by post, and we got it 3 days later
* alex_joni thinks they never heard of phones, or emails
sometimes overseas shipping just sucks.
I've had good luck with DHL for that
but I haven't done it much.
well.. I don't really know
sometimes they get stuff very fast
sometimes it takes ages
* alex_joni found a nicely built machine: http://hacocanada.com/plasma.html
so are you going to hook up SPINDLE_FORWARD next?
spindle is a little bit more peculiar
I gotta read some about it
fume extraction is guaranteed through selective opening of the chambers, pneumatically controlled by the position of the gantry.
it has also the analog control that should be available
* alex_joni likes AC-servos and rack&pinion drive
yeah, I'm about to hack that into my system
if they weren't so darn expensive...
what? AC drives?
no, spindle speed control
I could add it to emc2 ;)
hack out the analog output crap, hack in rs232 serial or bit-banged serial over a couple parallel lines, haven't decided yet
your spindle controller uses serial?
don't know yet, I haven't built it
but it seems like one obvious way to do it
this is the best time..
or, usb, hmmmm
nah... usb is... weird ;)
it would definitely be easier to talk rs232
but my machine may only have one serial port
on both sides
I would hate to use it up, even though I could always put in another one
usb/serial conv ;)
you can do whatever you like with m101, right?
jepler and I have done usb<->AVR microcontroller
I got one for my laptop ;)
well, we copied someone else's usb<>avr controller
avr are neat little microcontrollers
what chip did you use?
* alex_joni agrees
no, low-speed slave
there is a ATMega128 schematic with USB-master
but no SW yet
it's very slow and simple, but you can basically hook it right to the USB bus with only a 1.5k resistor
this is all software, you bit-bang at 1.5mbps
imagine a web-cam hooked up to a ATMega running Ethernut (web-server)
I got a little ethernet board but failed to get it running on atmega16
then I lost interest
* alex_joni has done a few ATMega128 + RTL8029
make that RTL8019AS ;)
something very nice: http://www.ispf.de/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=5
"nicht fertig" = unfinished?
what you get for <= EUR10?
err, what DO you get
the circuit board?
"Prospective price pro plate"
the guy started the project to get other people involved, to split the PCB costs
interesting but WAY more complex than anything I would want
good evening paul_c
welcome back ;-)
cradek: you don't have to mount everything on the board
yeah, it looks like it does everything
paul_c: I've been meaning to bug you about CVS. Could you put a tag like BDI_4_08 when you make a release? It would help me do support.
for instance, it would be great to have a tag that shows what les is running
and I ran into another instance helping rayh the other day
I would like a board with a big atmega and external sram, usb-serial or level converter .. but I don't need ethernet, CPLD, CAN, etc...
jepler: any news on the ATMega256 ?
* cradek has never needed/used anything over mega32
I heard a few rumors that they wanna release it...
nope .. I don't pay too much attention
that will be a nice micro (256k flash)
I have mostly done small tasks anyway, the only projects I've finished were 2313
the 2313 is great because of the price, but it's pretty easy to fill up 2k
I like to use ethernut (threads, http, ppp, etc.)
* cradek got dozens of 2313 for $1 each
what's a 2313?
made one project that used two of them communicating over serial
at90s2313 - DIP, 2k program space
cradek: Most of the BDI-4.xx code is in the emc2 tree...
I used some AT90C2051 & 4051
paul_c: that doesn't matter to me as long as it has tags
alex_joni: avr without multiply or spm
cool thing.. gotta look into that .. thanks for the tip
you guys have any ideas about spindle control?
I think spindle-forward, spindle-backward, spindle-speed (outputs to HAL)
and some feedback from HAL (spindle-measured_speed maybe)
no idea how spindle speed is supposed to work
does anyone use it? I don't think even bridgeportio supports it
I think it should be done so that any type can be used
once in HAL you cand hook whatever to the signal
DAC, serial output
anyways... I'm going to bed
paul_c : I was thinking you had left on some sort of trip or something, good seeing you :)
Had to do some work over at Lil' Sis'
ah, thats right, hope that went well
I hate flat-pack kitchens.
good day gents and congrats to all that helped in compiling BDi 4.0x. nice work keep it up.
issa pile of poo - I've got bug reports galore to fix.
still effort that counts...:D
paul any suggestion on rotary axis home switch..?
Use the index marker on an encoder
thanx..gotta go later..
is stuck,lost and doesn't know which way to turn :)
needs a df steer
anyone know if emc/stg uses the watchdog function?
df steer ha remember that
not offered in the lower 48 much anymore
lost airplanes used to be able to request a directional finder steer
and i'm lost !!!
I am just continuing my quest to not stare at the machine while it's running waiting for something bad to happen
a watchdog timer would help
the stg has this I think
not so sure emc uses it though
the stg has one
The watchdog time on the STG card is not used.
not sure if its coded into the software
and i continue to stare at it, waiting for the RIGHT thing to happen
paul: not such a big deal to implement it I would think
it would make my life a bit stressful
a couple reads and writes in newstg.c?
'pends what you want to happen should the w/d timer time out...
would have to be a hardware estop from the stg
A system reset, halt EMC, or trigger E-Stop yet still leave the RT code running.
oh and for the worry, I sorta worried, I had a 10inch dia part 146.5 inches long whirling around at 345rpm, and my doc was roughly .060" and the feed rate was a nice .028"/rev :)
yeah...but if newstg is realtime not resetting would indicate a computer problem
I would just like to do other work while the machine is running
at 32 hrs plus machine time a week it is getting old sitting there eyeing the big red button
It's like a stressful version of watching paint dry
Know what I mean?
I could look up the addresses of the watchdog function in the manual
les : what are you after?
where would the best place be to code it?
I mean, what is you intended goal?
gezer: goal is not to have a body monitoring the machine...to have enough confidence to leave it running semi-unattended
Using a watchdog timer is only of use to make sure the (for example) servo loop doesn't hang.
or the computer does not creash or fail
like a hd pooping out or any number of other hardware failures
emc and linux are solid...
You would need to write an interrupt handler and set it with the highest priority
pushing 500 kg of iron around with and old pc is not...
adjusting the servo loop priority to suit...
its your tooling thats in question, only thing I can suggest, is make a spring held switch, that rests againsts the tool, if the tool breaks, the spring pulls the switch to open, and the drives lose power
then add a routine to kick the dog on each servo loop.
well real time code always has highest priority right?
higher than linux.
you cannot preempt a crash, only minimize what happens after it
Is newstg.c all written in RT kernal space?
but you can set the priorties of the RT code too.
does the vital card have a watchdog as well?
I think it does.
les : im very fast at detecting tooling changes such as sound, chip type, and react quicly to them, but Ive never stopped anying once that ball started rolling, only did what I could do to shut things down afterwards
Gezr: I was thinking about a separate program that learns the history of servo currents vs time in a peoduction program and estops if anything extraordinary happens
they have vibro type broken tool detectors yeah, you could have that
just setting ferror estop close and a watchdog would do the same thing right?
you want to let the control know there is a falut
the computer has to be working for ferror estop to work
if the computer fails, stg should fail as well
it shouldnt go into an auto pilot
and oh my, a homming routine, used by seimens is plc baised
gezr: servos tend to run away in a fault
during power on, the machine can be homed long before the computer is up and running
I just though of that, had to share
les : that shouldnt be allowed
Well agreed something separate from the control comuter needs to check for faults
My little circuit does that some
The onre that calculates inertia, friction, and cutting forces
okay, on some machines, during an estop condition, the servos may still have enough stored power to continue some motion, and the machine may not even set a spindle break on
But I think a tight ferror estop and a watchdog would be about as good
but basically stop all plc function and power down drives
les : yes, ferror to show heavy tool wear, catastrophic failure will not be detected
The only thing not covered is a partial stg failure while the computer still runs
Gezr: emc ferror estop has saved the machine several times in nasty crashes
like the collet failure
les: emc needs to have a seperate pluse running to stg, to its watchdog, I think, and one headed the other way, if one detectes fault then it is halted, like if emc doenst gets its incomming train emc stops, if stg doesnt get its train then stg stops sending further on, right?
ferror estop shut the machine down
les : but some damage had occured because of the instant event
I think I will hunt up the watchdog on stg and ask abdul about that function on the motenc
its that instant event that cannont be predicted, an ferror would notice the drive using more power then it would to perform (this) task, but a tool could break without (that) event happening
and see if we can get something implemented
Gezer: true and instantaneous event cannot be predicted
But I'm here to tell you it stops pretty fast
les : what I had to do on many jobs was reguardless of tools condition, replace the tool, it got expensive on many jobs, but it was the only way to run the stuff, without losing lots of stuff
yeah, I know it stops quickly :)
Like when it tried to push a slipping bit into cherry with 2000 lb force
it stopped QUICK
im not trying to be discouring, just being honest, as are you, I want the same results you are after :)
did not break the bit
sensed the increased load though :)
I just want to stop having to sit at the machine 32 hrs a week
It's driving me nuts
les : is there any predictable event you have noticed?
the bits slides out what if you put a collar on the bit, so that once it started to slide, the colar would increase that load?
or tie in a ferror type alarm of some sort to the spindle motor?
I run the machine...my workers sand and finish the resultant product...and we all get ok paychecks
thats what I hate the most about the machine im on, its the first machine ive ran without a load meter
just an analog meter connected to the spindle
Gezer: my little circuit does that
les : do you have a visual result you could look at?
oh yeah, this will help you think about things tommrow
no motors load
well I run up to 5.6 kVA on the servos
do you have an a/c current meter you could use to monitor the spindle motor?
but most of that is for accelerating the inertia
you will see changes in the spindles current, long before you see it in a servos
sure... a shunt
are you following me?
I think if you could watch a run, with a tool in its midlife, and monitor the spindles "load" you will see it slightly increase with each part
My little citcuit stops things if spindle rpm drops below a certain point
Gezr: Ferror will show this too
with what im talking about, you would be able to set a break point in which tool failure could be expected or predicted
a motor will take more current before a rpm decrease would happen right?
lower rpm under load=more current
and your circuit would detect that right?
I had to have two more cutters airmailed out for the hollowing out part
most power required there
just to get an idea...
with an analog meter you could see changes that your circuit may not be able to catch, it catches the event you want it to catch, but if you had a way to see a change before that "triger" condition existed, you would be able to say, something is wrong
generated 200 lbs of chips just this week
Gezr: My circuit IS analog...and reacts in microseconds
with a little needle?
but a watchdog would just be a further safety
Gezr: No, it uses High speed analog op amps to solve the second order diff equation of motions
then gives a digital signal if something is wrong
thats on the spindle?
monitors spindle rpm and all servo speeds and currents
but it is experimental
not hooked up permanently
seems to work experimentally
but I am in full production and cannot experiment much
but a watchdog might be very easy and quick to throw in
can you add a plain ole bouncing needle amp meter to your spindle to see if you can as a human detect something ?
It kinda is that...if the "needle" bounces too much hardware shuts down
okay, what if a human saw the needle a bit further to the right compared to how it was on the previous set of parts, the human may think the tool has a bit of wear on it, and it might need changing
The idea is to not have to sit there monitoring tha machine all the time
not a big deal with occasional use
but 32 hrs a week!!!
drivin me nuts
im just talking about a way to guage where things are, or state, so you can more readly predict at how many parts your tool is too worn out to safely procede
that's easy enough
so you could say walk away for 2 hours, and then check, and then 2 more later, come back and change the bit
a tight ferror spec does that pretty well
im not giving a soulution to the over all issue, but a method in which you or anyone could notice that the needle has passed the "red line"
tool wear= higher forces
higher forces=more ferror
ive just never seen ferror on a spindle
so thats probably what im missing
on the servos rather than the spindle
that point may already be too far
they will have more ferror if they have to push harder
and the motor will have a increasing factor of its load
well ferror is not the perfect safeguard...but I have no time to install my little circuit
the little circuit monitors all that
then monitor the spindles current load visually
but with a watchdog ferror is almost as good
and I can do it quick
a few lines of code and a recompile
just as long as you have to to be able to predict an event
It cannot predict...but it can react fast
yeah, Im aware of that
There are some issues if one uses a lot of Integral gain and feedforward
all im talking about is a way for you or someone else to visually see a change, if ever so slight
for now I would reduce those...
ferror can see a change that you cannot hear or otherwise notice
a case and point would be, you have a dull bit, and you start to catch parts on fire, you may notice you have a problem going on :)
the computer has to work
hence a watchdog to cover the computer failing
Yes...there is a real fire danger with this stuff
yeah, all im talking about is a way for a slight change to be noticed, the watchdog and ferror changes are necessary for a number of other reasons as well
A dull or slipping tool is the ultimate rubbing two sticks together...and the embers get ducked up in a big dust collector fanning the flames with 1200 cfm air flow and a couple hundred pounds of chips to light
I know you know that, and I also know you know a better way to go about it, ive just spent thousands of hours sitting in front of machines, and I learned to use senses to pick up on things, watching a meter, chip types and shape, sounds, and sometimes got lucky with a 5th sence and stopped things just in the nick of time. I dont like sitting in front of a machine either,
Gezr: I will always have to be in the vicinity...but I just don't want to be cahined to the thing
what if you put a colar onthe tool, and if it pulled out a bit, it would break a contact made with a wire resting on the collors top and thus creating a estop or something issue
I thought about breaking wire or foil and stuff
details get complicated
im only presenting ideas, but I really think that a quick method to see to assist sounds may just be a simple amp meter
then I thought of hall effect sensor cepstrum analysis which I mentioned a few days ago
I know its not what your after
yeah, anything to sense a change that the machine may not be able to measure
but all of those I cannot do right now because of the production volume
catch 22 kinda
did spend the last 1,5 days doing lube /cleaning
must do that
repacked all ballnuts and linear slide trucks
washed the ballscrews
I wish I had a solid solution to your problem
Well I have it
what I do not have is time
but just a watchdog would make me feel WAY better
that I can do
I'll hunt it up in the stg manual
You know gezr, after this extended run I want a vacation...
like ALL spring
I get 2 weeks a year, already spent 1 day
I had a month at ITW
With my company not so much
If you own it you tend to never take off
you have a lot of things going on right now, and your experiencing some growing pains
But I want to fish and play golf for about 3 months after this bit
that sounds like a plan
yeah beats this schedule:
triple turkey call production
ship 5 robotic testers to ITW for my encoder design
design a foam cutting machine for another manufacturer
all NOW of course
everyone eats an elephant the same way :)
oh well at least I'm working
well better go and prepare some dinner