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[00:00:22] <robin_sz> I've just sepnt a week in geneva,
[00:00:30] <les> I am gettin into that crap again too...too much...can't even get a good night's slepp haha
[00:00:41] <robin_sz> dang ... thats bad
[00:00:42] <les> sleep
[00:01:01] <robin_sz> anyway, being in geneva reminded me why I want to build machines ...
[00:01:53] <robin_sz> so I can accumulate enough cash not to have to actually be there building machines :)
[00:02:18] <les> haha
[00:02:34] <les> I have not visited geneva in 5 years
[00:02:41] <robin_sz> geneva is *nice* ...
[00:02:51] <les> sure is
[00:02:59] <robin_sz> I go maybe 5 or 6 times a year
[00:03:14] <les> I always had to catch a train north though
[00:03:16] <robin_sz> 2 10 day trips, a handful of 2 day ones
[00:03:46] <les> Our Gema division is in St Gallen
[00:03:51] <les> a bit north
[00:04:02] <robin_sz> right. Ive heard of StGallen ..
[00:04:06] <robin_sz> never been
[00:04:08] <les> on the german border
[00:04:14] <les> nice little town
[00:04:42] <robin_sz> I spent most lunchimes sitting on the balcony, warm sun, shirt sleeves rolled up, watching the snow on the Jura
[00:05:18] <les> yup I remember snow up high even in warm weather
[00:05:43] <robin_sz> this was failry low I guess, perhaps down to 1000m
[00:05:49] <les> GEMA is our powder coating division
[00:05:59] <robin_sz> oh right, I remember.
[00:06:14] <robin_sz> picking up a powder oven tomorow as it happens
[00:06:17] <les> in fact ransburg gema invented powder coating
[00:07:02] <robin_sz> Ive got tired of sending stuff out to get painted
[00:07:15] <robin_sz> I'll try it in-house for a few weeks ..
[00:07:20] <les> powder coating is good....and I don't have the stuff to do it here
[00:07:34] <robin_sz> just as long as I can arrange to not breathe that crap in!
[00:07:42] <les> big convection oven will work
[00:07:55] <robin_sz> this is a 30kw infra red
[00:08:07] <paul_c> Hi rayh
[00:08:17] <rayh> Just testing today's sf and when I shut down get error messages.
[00:08:20] <rayh> Hi Paul
[00:08:22] <les> no it is so sticky and charged that it does not float around in the air much
[00:08:35] <rayh> The message reads in part...
[00:08:49] <rayh> Removing module freqmod
[00:08:49] <rayh> generic.ini was not changed.
[00:08:49] <rayh> generic.var was not changed.
[00:08:49] <rayh> sed: -e expression #1, char 7: strings for y command are different lengths
[00:08:49] <rayh> sed: -e expression #1, char 7: strings for y command are different lengths
[00:09:15] <rayh> Got a clue?
[00:09:21] <robin_sz> les: going to build a wood and polythen tent, big box with a perf metal screen and an old cotton sheet as a back wall
[00:09:30] <paul_c> rayh: Yup
[00:09:46] <rayh> paul_c: What's happening?
[00:09:57] <robin_sz> les: blower and a filter stack and bag to keep it sucked away ...
[00:10:21] <robin_sz> les: its not nice stuff to store in your lungs !!
[00:10:42] <les> we always used good face masks
[00:10:54] <robin_sz> positive pressure masks?
[00:11:09] <les> no, just filters
[00:11:14] <robin_sz> 'k
[00:11:21] <les> particle size is large
[00:11:27] <robin_sz> yeah true
[00:11:34] <les> electret filters work very well
[00:11:46] <robin_sz> get a bit in your eyes and its unpleasant, like long-lasting grit
[00:11:55] <les> yup
[00:12:04] <robin_sz> * robin_sz scribbles down 'electrostatic filter'
[00:12:27] <les> electret disposable filter masks
[00:12:35] <robin_sz> oh. hmm
[00:13:10] <les> we have electret cleaning cloths on sale everywher here
[00:13:35] <les> I just pull them apart a bit and make filters for computers etc
[00:13:43] <les> works well
[00:13:48] <les> very cheap
[00:14:01] <robin_sz> what exactly is 'electret' about them?
[00:14:22] <les> permanently polarized polymer fibers
[00:14:27] <robin_sz> right
[00:14:30] <robin_sz> thats a 3m thing?
[00:15:01] <les> prob PP or PE varients
[00:15:07] <les> might be 3M
[00:15:38] <robin_sz> best order a decen tmask then I guess
[00:15:50] <robin_sz> I have 2 concerns
[00:15:54] <les> solidified under a huge electric field
[00:15:57] <robin_sz> 1) breathing the crap in
[00:16:11] <robin_sz> 2) factory covered in a film of the crap
[00:16:45] <robin_sz> all the boxes have warnings like ...
[00:16:57] <robin_sz> 'causes heritable genetic defects'
[00:17:21] <robin_sz> I assume that means at a cellular level ie cancer, not fathering children with 33 heads
[00:17:22] <les> #2 happens pretty bad...as far as #1 amine curing agents and blocked polyisocyanates are not so good to suck in for sure
[00:17:50] <robin_sz> so vent to oven outdoors then :)
[00:18:10] <les> wouldn't hurt
[00:18:41] <les> but on the good side the stuff really does not float aroud much
[00:18:43] <robin_sz> * robin_sz adds 'forget to check with enviromental health on this one' to his to-do list
[00:18:53] <les> more like beach sand
[00:19:13] <les> sticky light beach sand
[00:19:21] <robin_sz> like you want a factory full of beach sand ...
[00:19:35] <robin_sz> I already have 2 tonnes of the stuff in boxes
[00:19:46] <les> it gets all over the floor for sure...
[00:19:59] <robin_sz> could poder coat a city with that anount!
[00:20:01] <les> At Gema we had lots of mops
[00:20:21] <robin_sz> yeah ... but its not soluble, best you can do is move it about
[00:21:09] <robin_sz> I going to try the wood and poly tent, keep it tamed if I can
[00:21:39] <les> it will stick to the surface charge in poly very well
[00:22:11] <les> sticks to grounded metals too
[00:23:05] <les> that was the problem I worked on...BMW wanted a =?- 10 micron coating thickness tol
[00:23:12] <robin_sz> heh
[00:23:15] <les> +/-
[00:23:25] <robin_sz> like +- 10 over a panel
[00:23:26] <les> (had caps lock on)
[00:23:31] <robin_sz> or even in the corners?
[00:23:50] <les> yeah...even in inside and outside corners
[00:23:54] <robin_sz> coo
[00:24:33] <les> tough customers
[00:24:39] <robin_sz> did you manage it?
[00:24:44] <robin_sz> or did they go water based?
[00:24:46] <les> that's why I buy their cars
[00:25:15] <les> not water on the continent at least when I was there
[00:25:26] <les> powder clearcoat
[00:25:31] <robin_sz> right
[00:25:37] <robin_sz> but conventioanl base?
[00:25:51] <les> I developed just the metering system
[00:26:10] <robin_sz> right, the sir/powder mix bit?
[00:26:15] <robin_sz> air/powder
[00:26:31] <les> using "acoustic refractive index"
[00:26:36] <robin_sz> coo.
[00:26:54] <les> uh oh...but can't talk about it too much haha
[00:26:54] <robin_sz> to monitor the mix?
[00:26:57] <robin_sz> hahaha
[00:26:59] <les> yeah
[00:26:59] <robin_sz> ;)
[00:28:08] <les> All I can say is that I got the idea at my shop in Chicago near the golf club's skeet range
[00:28:31] <les> in the summer it was "pop pop pop"
[00:29:27] <robin_sz> * robin_sz can probably fill in the gaps
[00:29:27] <les> during a snow shower it was "thock thock thock" even though the mass percentage of snow in air was tiny
[00:29:34] <robin_sz> right
[00:29:44] <robin_sz> same effect as foggy days ...
[00:29:59] <les> So I took some laplace transforms and stuff...
[00:30:05] <les> and...you know...
[00:30:23] <les> haha
[00:30:43] <robin_sz> sure, ... 2 days later you had the maths all wrong, so you just got some piezo sensors and tried it anyway?
[00:31:37] <les> haha...YOU ARE TOO SMART...i AIN'T SAYIN A WORD ABOUT PIEZO STUFF
[00:31:48] <robin_sz> :)
[00:32:09] <les> heh anyway
[00:32:26] <robin_sz> so ... if you had been real smart ..
[00:32:58] <robin_sz> youd have booked out 2 weeks on the golf range and a few weeks of skeet as "R&D"
[00:33:47] <les> heh...oh i did...I built there system in my garage
[00:34:04] <robin_sz> hah. so you know exactly how much mess it makes then :)
[00:34:22] <les> yeah pretty much
[00:34:42] <les> They cut me a lot of slack I guess
[00:34:53] <les> still do
[00:35:15] <robin_sz> i think these guns im getting have some basic mix control based on current flow into the particles
[00:35:35] <robin_sz> I forget what brand they are ...
[00:35:41] <les> yeah tribo stuff
[00:35:49] <robin_sz> eurotech? eurocoat?
[00:36:11] <les> not sure
[00:36:18] <robin_sz> box on a vibro stand, lower a feed arm into it, spray.
[00:36:55] <les> it's a fluidized bed basically
[00:37:24] <robin_sz> basically, yes. the air feed to fluidize it is just on the end of the pickup arm
[00:37:34] <robin_sz> 'locally fluidized' would be more accurate
[00:38:06] <les> tribo is unreliable to determine mass flow rate...depends to much on particle size and aspect ratio distribution
[00:38:13] <les> too
[00:38:30] <robin_sz> yeah, but for manual application ...
[00:38:42] <robin_sz> the human has a lot of impact on the coat thickness
[00:39:03] <les> yeah might be ok...or just watching while you spray
[00:39:39] <robin_sz> watching the part, and thinking .. 'done a lot on that bit already' seems to work
[00:39:53] <les> bmw was unusually nasty and tough as usual
[00:39:59] <robin_sz> experience of manual cellulaose application puts you well ahead of the game
[00:40:08] <robin_sz> I can imagine ...
[00:40:12] <les> right
[00:40:25] <robin_sz> +- 10 is not much at all!!
[00:41:23] <robin_sz> how they measure the coating, laser and a reflection?
[00:41:37] <les> it's +/- 5% or so..really tough for powder in corners etc
[00:41:46] <robin_sz> yeah.
[00:41:52] <les> capacitance
[00:41:53] <robin_sz> inside corners are the hard bit
[00:42:05] <les> yup
[00:42:16] <robin_sz> I can imagine the curvilinear sqaures right now
[00:42:27] <les> haha
[00:42:48] <les> only servo mass control could do it
[00:43:02] <les> that's where I came in I guess
[00:43:37] <robin_sz> and a robot
[00:43:55] <les> yup we have plenty of those
[00:44:25] <les> faraday cages and bmw specs=work
[00:44:48] <robin_sz> how was the application startegy developed? trial and error, or hard sums and 3d models?
[00:45:21] <les> haha can't say
[00:45:23] <les> math
[00:45:28] <les> vector math
[00:45:32] <les> lots of it
[00:45:41] <robin_sz> right .. hard sums then :)
[00:45:59] <les> wrote some serious code
[00:46:13] <robin_sz> at least when youve done it that way, you can stick another panel in and get it right first time
[00:46:40] <les> but hey...we can mess with e field vectors right?
[00:47:41] <robin_sz> well, now theres a thing .. I guess you can launch the particles in just the right place then you kow where their flight will take them ...
[00:47:50] <les> anyway as you will find...powder tends to be self limiting...try to spray on too much and the charges are neutrilised
[00:48:02] <robin_sz> right. I had noticed that a bit
[00:48:04] <les> gawd spelling
[00:48:20] <les> so it does not stick past a point
[00:48:31] <les> that helps a lot
[00:48:38] <robin_sz> right. almost idiot proof.
[00:48:41] <robin_sz> almost.
[00:49:07] <les> not enough for the likes of BMW...but it does help a bunch
[00:49:43] <robin_sz> I guess the base and colour coats get a hard time ..
[00:50:01] <robin_sz> a trip through a powder oven cant be much fun for them
[00:50:43] <les> well mica and metal flake don't work well
[00:50:49] <robin_sz> Ive read theres people doing crazy things with infra red these days too
[00:50:56] <robin_sz> like on MDF
[00:51:06] <robin_sz> powder coated MDF is widely used
[00:51:11] <les> we have tried poeder on it
[00:51:19] <les> powder
[00:51:31] <robin_sz> they are talking 30S total cure time ...
[00:51:45] <les> of course my information is 4 or 5 years old
[00:52:18] <les> yes with a quick IR blast I could see that
[00:52:36] <robin_sz> apparently LARGE anounts of just right lambda IR can do the same as 20 mins at 210 ...
[00:52:44] <les> hit the methyl groups and such
[00:52:51] <robin_sz> yip
[00:53:01] <robin_sz> still suprised its so quick though
[00:53:05] <robin_sz> and ...
[00:53:20] <robin_sz> theyre using IR pre-heat on conventional ovens now
[00:53:31] <les> ha...and I am using old uralkyd varnishes
[00:53:56] <robin_sz> 20 seconds of IR melts the paint, once molten its much better at conductiong ambient heat into the base metal
[00:54:18] <robin_sz> so they IR flash it as it goes in, get 2~5 times speed up
[00:54:31] <les> and some of it reacts strongly exothermic
[00:54:39] <robin_sz> right, thats news.
[00:54:52] <robin_sz> spekaing of which ...
[00:55:08] <robin_sz> my mate was playing with soem BIG xenon lamps last week
[00:55:14] <robin_sz> in a laser cavity
[00:55:53] <robin_sz> for a laugh, took the lid off, stood a big fat electrolytic on the edge of the cavity (like 100mm from the lamp)
[00:55:56] <robin_sz> and fired it.
[00:56:16] <robin_sz> the xenon flash totlaly removed the plastic on one side
[00:56:19] <robin_sz> like .. gone.
[00:56:24] <les> can he still see?
[00:56:25] <robin_sz> vapourised/
[00:56:45] <robin_sz> he had the laser googles on, eyes shut and well out of the direct light
[00:56:53] <robin_sz> hes not that daft:)
[00:56:58] <les> haw
[00:57:21] <robin_sz> amazing the amoutn of energy in a big xenon pulse
[00:57:48] <robin_sz> this has like a 6U 19" rack full of elelctrolytics ...
[00:58:00] <robin_sz> several 1000 joules at a guess
[00:58:00] <les> like welding
[00:58:17] <robin_sz> yip ... or a very instant tan :)
[00:58:20] <les> 25 W/cm^2 on the retina
[00:58:43] <les> with a point source in focus
[00:58:58] <robin_sz> http://students.washington.edu/mdang/Humor/tanlines.jpg
[00:59:01] <les> ...toast cone and rod cells
[00:59:25] <robin_sz> * robin_sz nods
[00:59:43] <robin_sz> assuming the cornea doesnt exlode with the UV
[01:00:06] <les> haw funny link
[01:00:31] <les> uv does not reach it
[01:00:42] <robin_sz> the cornea?
[01:00:55] <robin_sz> thats the outer bit, right?
[01:01:07] <robin_sz> * robin_sz thought it absorbed UV like a sponge
[01:01:18] <les> as far as I can tell...remeber I did that welding helmet for Miller
[01:01:43] <les> so doed aqueous humor
[01:01:48] <les> does
[01:02:04] <les> and vitrious...
[01:02:12] <robin_sz> AFAIK, the soreness you get from too much sun/weld flash is the cornea burning the outer layer, then sloughing off
[01:02:29] <robin_sz> it regenrates overnight htough
[01:02:34] <les> cornra and crystalline lens get nailed by uv
[01:02:50] <robin_sz> 48 hours and the 'sand in your eye' feeling should go away ...
[01:02:51] <les> "sandy eyes" we call it
[01:03:08] <robin_sz> the cornea is the outer outer layer right? the very front bit?
[01:03:15] <les> right
[01:03:29] <robin_sz> im pretty sure that takes most of the UV hit
[01:03:38] <les> I think the uv causes cataracts there
[01:03:52] <robin_sz> probably if you do it too often I gues it does
[01:04:33] <robin_sz> and NEVER contact lenses!!
[01:04:54] <les> I hired nasa's space welding group to answer that question but they really didn't
[01:05:20] <robin_sz> Iguess their lawyers told em not to commit to anyting
[01:05:45] <les> One of our government/industry cooperation incentive programs
[01:05:56] <les> it was a waste
[01:06:36] <robin_sz> they werent accustommed to answering 'industrial' questions?
[01:07:10] <les> well the lady NASA engineer doen in Huntsville was fun anyway
[01:07:42] <robin_sz> but thats another story, right?
[01:08:00] <les> I wanted data on High Light flux weapons research
[01:08:07] <les> did not get a peep
[01:08:26] <robin_sz> heh .. well quite. "we have no such programme"
[01:08:32] <les> I know they have a program
[01:08:41] <robin_sz> sure ... sure ...
[01:08:43] <les> blind the enemy and all that
[01:08:53] <robin_sz> and they dont use laser dazzle weapons either
[01:08:56] <robin_sz> no one does
[01:09:03] <robin_sz> against the geneva convention
[01:09:08] <robin_sz> except ...
[01:09:17] <robin_sz> several companies sell them ...
[01:09:29] <robin_sz> its just no one uses them ... riiiighhht.
[01:10:07] <robin_sz> theyre UV by the way.
[01:10:12] <les> I just wanted the info to establish a baselinr for eye damage with auto darkening welding helmets
[01:10:24] <robin_sz> cause the aqueous humour to flouresce
[01:10:32] <les> might
[01:10:52] <les> depending on wavelength
[01:11:15] <robin_sz> the laser dazzel weapons do use a apecific wavelength to do just that
[01:11:34] <les> must be uv?
[01:11:45] <robin_sz> seems so ... from what i read
[01:11:52] <les> or near
[01:12:05] <robin_sz> you could blast em with IR and do the job permanently I guess
[01:12:46] <rayh> I didn't think we gave much concern for Geneva conventions these days.
[01:12:49] <les> well I was just concerned because my mig welding helmet was transparent except during the arc event
[01:13:03] <robin_sz> I remember ...
[01:13:10] <robin_sz> did it go on sale?
[01:14:01] <les> NO...I gave a presentation and said it was an unacceptable risk
[01:14:14] <les> I did not like the idea
[01:14:27] <robin_sz> right. one out of synch moment and ... zappo.
[01:14:35] <les> A VP asked me if it was possible
[01:14:42] <les> His idea
[01:15:05] <les> I said yes...he gave me some money...and I did it
[01:15:19] <les> but REALLY dangerousd
[01:15:26] <les> oops
[01:15:35] <les> it did work
[01:16:00] <les> you can see the work with no arc light
[01:16:20] <les> you can see glowing metal though
[01:17:44] <robin_sz> coo
[01:17:47] <les> much too dangerous for a product
[01:18:00] <robin_sz> neat though .. you have one at hoem I bet ;)
[01:18:12] <les> funny thing is how much money I got to spend on it
[01:18:21] <robin_sz> 10^6?
[01:18:26] <les> yeah I have one...do not use it
[01:19:01] <les> x10^5 anyway
[01:19:05] <les> silly
[01:19:10] <robin_sz> yip
[01:19:20] <robin_sz> dang .. 1am
[01:19:23] <robin_sz> must sleep
[01:19:27] <les> yeah
[01:19:33] <les> good talk
[01:19:37] <les> go to bed
[01:19:38] <robin_sz> indeed
[01:19:44] <robin_sz> see ya!
[01:19:49] <les> later
[02:19:59] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich lurks
[11:16:49] <alex_joni> good morning paul_c
[11:25:28] <paul_c> Morning Alex
[11:40:47] <CIA-6> 03paul_c * 10emc/remove_realtime_base: Rework the sed to try to make it a little more portable across versions
[12:01:30] <alex_joni> I just got your reply to zwisk's tracker
[12:01:36] <alex_joni> I must say I agree...
[12:01:55] <alex_joni> however some statistics could get read from proc
[12:02:29] <alex_joni> for some HAL components (which are registered) cat /proc/hal/stepgen.0/max_time
[12:02:35] <alex_joni> or something similar
[12:02:53] <alex_joni> * alex_joni goes away for a while...
[12:04:48] <paul_c> There is a limit to the amount of data that can be normally passed via the proc interface
[12:05:19] <paul_c> for x86, this is one page of 4096 bytes.
[13:37:25] <paul_c> Hi Ray - Committed a fix...
[13:37:43] <paul_c> Can you update from SF and test.
[13:40:39] <rayh> Yes I can. Will do in just a few minutes.
[13:40:48] <rayh> Did the download complete?
[13:43:38] <rayh> I should be able to just move remove_realtime_base into the compile I did yesterday?
[13:51:03] <paul_c> * paul_c is back from lunch...
[13:51:31] <paul_c> Download finished around 05:00
[13:55:39] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is back
[13:55:52] <alex_joni> hello ray
[13:56:22] <alex_joni> paul: I use proc mainly for some limited output from it (e.g. cat /proc/meminfo)
[13:56:54] <alex_joni> so I would like cat /proc/hal/sysinfo or smthg (with some information on a page)
[13:57:31] <paul_c> alex_joni: can you access sco.com
[13:58:24] <alex_joni> yes (www.sco.com)
[13:58:43] <alex_joni> and without www. (
http://sco.com)
[13:58:56] <alex_joni> problems?
[14:02:27] <rayh> paul_c: You 'da man! remove_realtime_base works as promised.
[14:02:47] <rayh> Hi Alex. Did the candidate you wanted win?
[14:02:54] <alex_joni> not really
[14:03:11] <alex_joni> there will be a second tour for president election
[14:03:31] <rayh> Neither did the one I wanted;(
[14:03:39] <alex_joni> yeah.. I agree on that
[14:03:54] <alex_joni> did you manage to sort the iptables stuff?
[14:04:58] <rayh> Not yet. I had a sawmill breakdown.
[14:05:30] <paul_c> * paul_c is on the phone to ntl about their spamcop listing...
[14:06:25] <rayh> My ISP has been dropping stuff all over the place.
[14:08:58] <les> hi ray
[14:09:06] <les> and alex
[14:09:13] <alex_joni> hello les
[14:09:24] <alex_joni> I've read the logs from yesterday... about GEMA ;)
[14:09:54] <les> oh...haha we had quite a discussion about powder coating
[14:10:05] <les> familiar with GEMA?
[14:10:06] <alex_joni> we're kinda competitors :P
[14:10:08] <alex_joni> sure
[14:10:14] <alex_joni> we sell Wagner here
[14:10:19] <alex_joni> also from CH
[14:10:39] <les> oh haha yes
[14:11:01] <les> I worked mostly on car finishes for them
[14:11:09] <rayh> Hi Les. Did you leave your business manager hat on the hook this morning?
[14:11:49] <les> well I have to do a digi-key order...and buy some teak...but I just fired up the shop heat
[14:12:01] <les> temp 50 dewpoint 40
[14:12:32] <les> so I can only go up to 60/dew point 50 without cast iron sweating
[14:13:00] <les> the unvented gas is comfortable but dumps a lot of moisture in to the air
[14:13:25] <les> so dew point goes up as temperature does
[14:13:44] <les> Should really switch to direct vent heat
[14:16:36] <rayh> I had some of the same problems here until I vented the burner.
[14:17:22] <les> yup...I want some moisture..but not as much as I get with unvented
[14:17:32] <les> want 40-60% rh
[14:19:19] <les> I control it with dehumidifiers in the summer
[14:20:12] <rayh> paul_c: The download was from the guy in town. Should have a disk in three or four hours. Gotta blow some snow before I can get there.
[14:21:04] <les> That gives me memories
[14:22:52] <paul_c> * paul_c wonders what snow is ...
[14:23:41] <les> we have hd some at the higher elevations even down here
[14:23:54] <alex_joni> paul: if my memory serves me right it's something white & cold
[14:25:00] <alex_joni> how's the BDI going?
[14:26:10] <les> emc running on latest kernel I hear
[14:27:13] <les> does the latest linux disto you are using handle usb, easy samba setup, and things like that?
[14:31:34] <paul_c> USB drivers are compiled, but I've not tested them...
[14:32:01] <paul_c> and samba is a black art even with a webadmin interface
[14:32:15] <alex_joni> samba's cool ;) and easy to set up...
[14:32:36] <les> hmm well usb memory sticks would be handy for those big gcode files
[14:32:36] <alex_joni> * alex_joni sets his samba up ... (it's been 4 years since I started)
[14:32:43] <alex_joni> I'm almost there
[14:32:43] <paul_c> You don't need samba
[14:32:47] <alex_joni> lol
[14:33:03] <alex_joni> paul: I agree that on a BDI you don't need samba
[14:33:04] <paul_c> samba is only needed if you work with the devil
[14:33:26] <alex_joni> smbclient should be there...
[14:33:31] <les> I need someting other that burning CDR to get the code to the shop
[14:33:32] <rayh> I've run a couple of usb devices here.
[14:33:44] <alex_joni> smbmount perhaps too
[14:33:48] <alex_joni> ftp, ssh
[14:34:13] <paul_c> scp, nfs
[14:34:41] <les> yeah...get the machine on internet and just ftp the file sfrom the office
[14:35:02] <les> but I am a little uncomfortable with that
[14:35:03] <alex_joni> or local LAN
[14:35:28] <les> well need samba...office boxes have to be windows
[14:35:40] <alex_joni> you can smbclient to a windows machine
[14:35:55] <alex_joni> just set a share on the doze box, and browse it from linux
[14:36:19] <paul_c> or run a web server on the office boxen, and use wget
[14:36:25] <les> if there was a place I could read up on that I will
[14:36:36] <alex_joni> les: just say when you need help
[14:36:45] <les> thanks
[14:37:12] <alex_joni> just: smbclient \\\\WINMACHINE\\SHARE
[14:37:16] <les> it's not urgent...but burning programs to get them out there is a little silly
[14:37:21] <alex_joni> get desired_file.nc
[14:38:18] <cradek> those usb memory stick drives are a nice modern-day replacement for sneakernet (floppies)
[14:38:46] <paul_c> but Les is running BDI-2.12
[14:38:55] <paul_c> No USB support.
[14:39:06] <cradek> oh
[14:40:48] <les> Might be a reason to change
[14:41:35] <paul_c> 1GHz boxes are cheap now..
[14:41:40] <alex_joni> * alex_joni thinks IBM had a point when they said: never touch a running system
[14:41:48] <les> I only upgrade if I HAVE to...and that might justify it
[14:42:12] <les> well I am in production now so I can't touch it for a while
[14:42:46] <les> cradek: firing up the shop today and will test the abort program
[14:46:56] <cradek> ok
[14:47:15] <cradek> jepler was pretty sure he figured out the pattern.
[14:47:32] <les> I saw
[14:48:02] <cradek> do you know who would be the one to fix it?
[14:48:17] <cradek> it's assigned to jmk but that was a default assignment
[14:48:25] <les> oh
[14:48:48] <les> well I can't make much of the code
[14:49:00] <les> some things I understand
[14:49:19] <les> too much global stuff for me
[14:49:41] <cradek> me too. I think I'm missing the big picture. I don't understand the flow of the messages.
[14:50:04] <les> but I just want to see if this is an older problem or something that has broken recently
[14:50:21] <cradek> yeah, that would be nice to nkow
[14:50:24] <cradek> know even
[14:50:27] <les> although I am using a 6 month old build
[15:00:59] <rayh> Ah! "the big picture" That was the subtitle of my fest presentation.
[15:01:25] <cradek> wish I could have made it
[15:01:32] <cradek> I was at NAMES but had to leave before Fest
[15:02:36] <rayh> I wish that we had a clear statement of all of the EMC1 global variables.
[15:03:06] <rayh> Globals have a distinct advantage as we saw in the recent mars landers.
[15:04:10] <rayh> When the rover started doing geology it created a priority inversion in the real-time code.
[15:05:35] <rayh> Some routines took to long to complete so the system nearly locked up.
[15:07:29] <rayh> By submitting a change to CYCLE_TIME it sorted it self out on the next rt loop.
[15:07:37] <les> heh I nominate ray to do a write up on the big picture
[15:07:47] <les> or a transcript of your talk
[15:07:56] <rayh> Yea right!
[15:08:23] <les> durn...on the phone and can't find any teak
[15:08:36] <rayh> There are some real issues with globals in the EMC@ stuff.
[15:09:07] <les> well the big issue with me is I can't read it
[15:09:29] <les> granted...I am not a programmer...but I have written a bit of c
[15:09:40] <rayh> That is where a glossary of globals would help.
[15:09:48] <les> yes
[15:10:00] <rayh> But I don't know more than a handfull of them.
[15:10:35] <les> how about fred p and some sodium pentothal?
[15:10:38] <rayh> Wonder if I could twist Fred's arm enough to get a list.
[15:10:51] <paul_c> It would help if the essential variables were seperate from the debug vars.
[15:10:54] <rayh> Chemistry might help;)
[15:10:58] <les> haha
[15:11:26] <rayh> debug is a critical problem.
[15:11:38] <les> hmm
[15:11:47] <les> well I run full debug
[15:12:09] <les> slows the gui and stuff badly it seems
[15:12:30] <rayh> It does, but when you need it you really need it.
[15:12:43] <paul_c> You do need to be carefull with one of the debug options
[15:12:59] <les> that is ...running a terminal and the gui gets kinda slow on an old machine
[15:13:07] <rayh> paul_c: Do you think it is possible to separate the debug vars from run vars?
[15:13:07] <les> but I do it
[15:13:22] <paul_c> Any debug info that has a timestamp from realtime has a flaw
[15:13:39] <les> ?
[15:14:11] <paul_c> Unless the kernel is compiled with TSC, any get-time calls are not thread safe
[15:14:56] <paul_c> most of the time, the call works, but there is a chance that the system could lock up.
[15:16:08] <paul_c> rayh: One thing I didn't mention in my last post to emc-dev
[15:16:24] <paul_c> was the addition of a /dev entry for EMC
[15:17:16] <les> well...I can't ever recall having a lock-up with emc1
[15:17:39] <rayh> * rayh reads through the fest outline.
[15:17:39] <les> except segmentqueue testing
[15:17:42] <paul_c> Using a /dev/emc node gives us the scope to separate essential shmem realtime data from debug and status
[15:18:28] <rayh> Oh. Okay.
[15:18:32] <paul_c> and the proc interface also provides a simple debugging window on the internals.
[15:19:03] <rayh> Wow.
[15:19:28] <rayh> What would we need in order to track stuff through /dev and /proc.
[15:19:58] <paul_c> The /dev/emc node could also provide a means to reconfigure on the fly.
[15:20:07] <rayh> Something like halscope?
[15:20:22] <rayh> Right. I can see that.
[15:20:38] <paul_c> /proc/emc/* can be read with any text reader, even cat
[15:21:07] <paul_c> proc entries are (generally) human readable
[15:21:17] <rayh> I was thinking about the time critical relationships down there in rtai.
[15:22:00] <rayh> You can easily cat /proc but you get a time slice rather that a look at the process over time.]
[15:23:07] <paul_c> There is a ring buffer used by the logging interface (emcplot uses it)
[15:23:23] <paul_c> but it hogs huge amounts of memory.
[15:24:02] <rayh> Right. But if properly configured and triggered it would look like a digital recording scope.
[15:24:29] <paul_c> yup.
[15:24:51] <rayh> Then we could strip all the rt debug stuff.
[15:25:28] <paul_c> Space for the ring buffer is allocated at insmod time, which (in my opinion) sucks...
[15:25:49] <alex_joni> a lot of stuff is decided at insmod time
[15:25:58] <alex_joni> which in my opinion sucks too
[15:25:59] <paul_c> Using a dev entry, it could be allocated dynamically
[15:26:02] <rayh> A pile of bones left over from 09J?
[15:26:15] <alex_joni> e.g. nr. of axes
[15:26:31] <paul_c> A legacy of the NIST testing program..
[15:26:39] <rayh> Yep.
[15:27:02] <paul_c> Some of the data recorded is meaningless.
[15:27:07] <alex_joni> ok guys... I'm outta here
[15:27:15] <alex_joni> I'll catch up with the logs tomorrow
[15:27:15] <rayh> See you alex.
[15:27:17] <alex_joni> bye
[15:31:49] <paul_c> With a little bit of work, halscope (or something similar) could be made to work.
[15:33:54] <rayh> Such a interface need not be real time. It just needs to display that data.
[15:34:50] <paul_c> Agreed - The only part that would need to be realtime would be the data logging routine.
[15:35:08] <paul_c> But we already have that in the EMC code.
[15:36:46] <rayh> Yep.
[15:37:38] <rayh> Could we do some graphing of that like we do for the backplotter?
[15:39:00] <rayh> Or is that already there in stripchart.
[15:39:12] <paul_c> a 3D spatial plot ?
[15:40:37] <rayh> I think I'd be content with laying several vars on a timeline.
[15:40:51] <paul_c> http://www.kitware.com/case/vtkinuse.html
[15:42:07] <paul_c> http://www.kitware.com/images/VTKInUsepvwave75A.jpg
[15:44:46] <rayh> Set it up right and the area under a slice would be the cpu time committed to a specific thread or process.
[15:50:50] <paul_c> With toolkits like Vtk, the only limit is your imagination.
[15:52:50] <rayh> Yes it is and the other kit systems complement it by extension.
[15:53:24] <les> bleh sent a man out to pick up teak...$13.75/ bd ft
[15:53:44] <les> and now off to the shop...enough of this office stuff
[15:53:48] <les> later
[15:55:33] <rayh> "ParaView runs on distributed and shared memory parallel as well as single processor systems"
[15:56:13] <paul_c> You'll be wanting to run a Beowolf cluster next ;)
[15:59:26] <rayh> Did you look at the dart stuff. I've see that with laptop and rt someplace.
[15:59:27] <jepler> Yeah, see, what you need is a beowulf cluster of machines with a USB to parallel converter, so that it's *fast enough* to drive a stepper system.
[15:59:53] <rayh> There you go.
[16:00:28] <paul_c> but at least you can do it with python.
[16:02:25] <rayh> Or tickle. Those features would be very nice.
[16:02:59] <rayh> I was also looking at the cable stuff because that is intended to be a high level connector
[16:03:21] <rayh> between c c++ and the scripting language.
[16:03:50] <rayh> It does not look like it will make it to the generalized level we need.
[16:14:54] <paul_c> methinks Jon E. isn't going to like some of the changes imposed by the 2.6 kernel build system.
[16:22:12] <rayh> Does it break his parport comm?
[16:27:26] <paul_c> Not the comms, but it will break any modules that have different variants built from a singe source file.
[16:30:47] <rayh> Ouch. Don't we build a lot of variations upon emcmot.
[16:31:25] <paul_c> Yes - But I've already split up emcmot to get round that.
[16:35:14] <rayh> Oh. I see.
[16:35:26] <rayh> This is a part of your cvs rather than sf.
[16:36:40] <paul_c> At the moment, yes - Just got to figure out the best way of merging in to SF
[16:37:39] <rayh> You are also using your librcs?
[16:39:02] <paul_c> At the moment, yes - It makes life sooo much easier to produce a deb.
[16:41:41] <rayh> I'd support simply creating a new module emc1 that is your repository.
[16:42:38] <rayh> We would essentially freeze emc where it is.
[16:43:30] <rayh> With that we have essentially parallel 1 and 2 modules.
[16:44:48] <paul_c> A fork in the emc2 tree may be a better route to go - librcs and the configure script are both the same...
[16:45:02] <paul_c> as is much of the make structure
[16:45:35] <rayh> I think I'd find that really confusing.
[16:47:14] <rayh> If it were possible to split out the 1 and 2 specific source while holding the common source in one place...
[16:48:02] <paul_c> Could add a couple of lines to the makefile...
[23:37:36] <alex_joni> RS485/RS232 adapter
[23:37:42] <alex_joni> and hal_rs232.c ;)
[23:37:47] <Imperator_> :-)
[23:37:53] <Imperator_> not that easy
[23:37:56] <alex_joni> some minimal serial thingy
[23:38:01] <alex_joni> no kernel support
[23:38:30] <alex_joni> you can do some other thing
[23:38:44] <Imperator_> but i have a Heindenhain IK220 card here it supports two counter inputs
[23:39:07] <Imperator_> mybe i write a driver for it and buy another one, but it is a bit expensive
[23:39:49] <Imperator_> about 800EUR :-)
[23:39:58] <alex_joni> ouch
[23:40:15] <Imperator_> the counter chips i have are 16EUR and they can also speak EnDat
[23:40:44] <Imperator_> but they don't speak with my PCI Decoder
[23:40:47] <Imperator_> :-)
[23:41:19] <Imperator_> maybe i have talk to them
[23:42:23] <Imperator_> ok i will go
[23:42:36] <Imperator_> chaio
[23:42:46] <alex_joni> night
[23:42:54] <alex_joni> paul: still around?
[23:43:47] <paul_c> yup
[23:44:01] <alex_joni> I was serious about those boards...
[23:44:07] <paul_c> checking Farnell's pricing
[23:44:12] <alex_joni> drop me an email and I'll ship you the cards
[23:44:43] <alex_joni> gotta check if I have 2-3 at work, but if not it'll take a few days to make them
[23:44:57] <paul_c> email sent to robcon
[23:45:17] <paul_c> pity you didn't use LS7266 counters
[23:45:36] <paul_c> * paul_c has a box of LS7266 chips.
[23:45:36] <alex_joni> what's the difference?
[23:45:47] <paul_c> dual channel
[23:46:24] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is checking footprints
[23:46:38] <paul_c> 24 pin DIL package
[23:47:23] <paul_c> also have the core code to read the 7266 in dro.c
[23:47:44] <alex_joni> well the code is pretty much the same
[23:47:59] <paul_c> true...
[23:48:02] <alex_joni> some bits here and there different ;)
[23:48:23] <alex_joni> can't seem to find a pdf
[23:50:32] <paul_c> http://www.usdigital.com/data-sheets/pdf.shtml
[23:50:52] <alex_joni> http://www.usdigital.com/data-sheets/ls7266r1%20Data%20Sheet.pdf ?
[23:50:55] <paul_c> http://www.usdigital.com/data-sheets/LS7266R1 Manufacturer's Data Sheet.pdf
[23:52:26] <alex_joni> hmm... a little bit different than LS7166
[23:52:29] <alex_joni> only footprint
[23:52:41] <alex_joni> internal is pretty much the same (only double)
[23:53:04] <alex_joni> let me check what I can do..
[23:53:15] <alex_joni> we'll talk about this in a few days .. ok?
[23:54:01] <alex_joni> meep?
[23:54:10] <paul_c> Can I twist your arm for IO ?
[23:54:16] <alex_joni> you can
[23:54:27] <alex_joni> what kind? how many?
[23:55:01] <paul_c> 16 in 16 out would suffice
[23:55:03] <robin_sz> ooh, meep meep alex_joni
[23:55:18] <robin_sz> today I acquired ...
[23:55:22] <alex_joni> paul: don't think that will fit on a standard PC104
[23:55:34] <robin_sz> an electrostatic powder coat gun
[23:55:35] <alex_joni> at least not with optocouplers
[23:55:38] <paul_c> nuts
[23:55:55] <alex_joni> robin: those are nice to play with
[23:56:00] <alex_joni> 100kV?
[23:56:13] <robin_sz> yeah, or 85kv possibly
[23:56:24] <alex_joni> paul: is there a problem if the board outline is bigger than standard?
[23:56:53] <paul_c> a couple om mm
[23:57:06] <alex_joni> I'll try to see
[23:57:10] <alex_joni> 4 channels?
[23:57:14] <alex_joni> or 8 channels?
[23:58:01] <paul_c> IO or encoder ?
[23:58:19] <alex_joni> encoder
[23:58:26] <alex_joni> e.g. 2 LS7266 or 4 ?
[23:58:54] <paul_c> four channels are enough for most apps.
[23:59:07] <alex_joni> I don't need more myself
[23:59:43] <paul_c> Just checked my processor card
