#emc | Logs for 2004-11-07

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[00:00:01] <pfred1> les yeah bessimer's bio is fascinating reading dig it up someday
[00:00:17] <les> I will
[00:00:29] <pfred1> how he initially made his fortune is a lesson in sheer genius
[00:00:56] <pfred1> man once he developed this one process he was set for life!
[00:01:05] <pfred1> he wiped out an entire industry
[00:01:31] <pfred1> then how he struggled to get his steel accepted
[00:01:53] <les> I have old books about steel...it was kind of magical production before Bessimer
[00:01:53] <pfred1> shows the true depth of human stupidity
[00:02:06] <pfred1> yeah they used a process called puddling
[00:02:21] <les> ?
[00:02:26] <pfred1> where guys would bust their asses for like 20 pounds of low grade steel
[00:03:00] <pfred1> somehow standing over a molten pool of iron you could swish a ladle around just so and somehow manage to aquire a charge of steel
[00:03:15] <pfred1> don't ask me i just read about it sounds stupid to me too
[00:03:32] <pfred1> but before bessimer that's how we made steel
[00:03:45] <les> I think early (2000 + years) steel came about from decarburization from hand forging
[00:04:15] <pfred1> in any event it was very labor intensive and you made small quantities
[00:04:28] <pfred1> bessimer did 5 ton pours right off the bat!
[00:04:45] <pfred1> actually his method didn't work for small quantities
[00:05:14] <pfred1> before him there was no way you'd get 5 tons of steel
[00:05:25] <les> yup I guess if one got iron hot enough and thin enough it would finally reach eutectoid
[00:05:38] <pfred1> heck his first pour he probably doubled the steel tonnage on Earth
[00:06:02] <les> sure changed things
[00:06:11] <pfred1> well you'd be suprised
[00:06:20] <pfred1> it took 20 years after that to really change things
[00:06:36] <pfred1> people still liked pig iron over his steel
[00:06:37] <les> hmm
[00:07:00] <pfred1> yeah his bio is on the net someplace it's very detailed
[00:07:06] <pfred1> remarkable
[00:07:12] <pfred1> know what else he did?
[00:07:15] <les> I guess casting steel was a bit different
[00:07:19] <les> what?
[00:07:33] <pfred1> he developed the modern process for extracting sugar from cane
[00:07:41] <pfred1> he entered a contest
[00:07:54] <pfred1> to develop machinery to press the cane
[00:08:08] <pfred1> and he had the cane imported to england so he could experiment with it
[00:08:19] <les> wow
[00:08:21] <pfred1> went up agianst all these big guys been in the industry for generations
[00:08:30] <pfred1> and totally blew them al laway
[00:08:52] <pfred1> their processes could extract at most maybe 20% of the sugar bessimer got like 80% extraction
[00:09:13] <pfred1> and they'd been doing it for hundreds of years!
[00:09:16] <les> I will read that...as an inventor type I will find it inspiring i'll bet
[00:09:31] <pfred1> man bessimer no one knows what we owe him today
[00:09:42] <pfred1> without sugar and steel that's modern society right there
[00:09:50] <les> yup
[00:09:51] <pfred1> calories and material
[00:09:59] <pfred1> it's what makes us what we are today
[00:10:23] <pfred1> I tell you little how he made his initial fortune
[00:10:28] <pfred1> which is a big part of the story
[00:10:42] <pfred1> one day his sister tells him to go out and buy her this stuff
[00:10:49] <pfred1> goldleaf
[00:10:57] <pfred1> so he goes out and buys a little bottle of this stuff
[00:11:04] <pfred1> and says damn this stuff is expensive!
[00:11:14] <pfred1> so he develops a process to make it cheaply
[00:11:21] <pfred1> instant fortune!
[00:11:40] <les> we use golf leaf for some of the signs
[00:11:45] <les> $$$
[00:11:50] <pfred1> true genius doens't overlook the obvious
[00:12:09] <pfred1> yeah well it used to be lots more expensive
[00:12:27] <pfred1> I think bessimer also invented compressed pencil lead like we use today
[00:12:37] <pfred1> do you know how they used to make pencil lead?
[00:13:02] <les> ? graphite and clay?
[00:13:13] <pfred1> they used to cut it with a jeweler's saw from carbon
[00:13:24] <pfred1> the stuff was more protected than gold shipments
[00:13:30] <les> wow
[00:13:31] <pfred1> highly skilled work
[00:13:46] <pfred1> yeah bessimer caught wind of it and destroyed another industry
[00:13:54] <pfred1> he was liek this is tom follery!
[00:14:13] <les> I used a lot of carbon for a coating in an invention
[00:14:25] <les> another car part
[00:14:44] <les> tons and tons
[00:15:10] <les> 200 squre meters/gram powder
[00:15:49] <pfred1> hmm i wonder if this is the bio I read?
[00:15:55] <pfred1> http://www.history.rochester.edu/ehp-book/shb/
[00:17:42] <les> looks like it...bookmarked
[00:18:01] <pfred1> yeah i am skimming it seeing if it is I think it is
[00:18:14] <pfred1> he was into casting when he was a kid
[00:18:20] <pfred1> did stuff like cast iron roses
[00:18:31] <pfred1> where you could see the veins in the pedals
[00:18:41] <pfred1> that'd be sharp huh? an iron rose?
[00:21:52] <les> I just bought a pelica 1851 navy pistol...it is modern steel but I wonder what the originals were made of
[00:21:58] <les> wrought iron?
[00:22:08] <les> replica
[00:22:14] <pfred1> someone was pounding away at an anvil
[00:22:33] <pfred1> they used to lay up gun barrels out of rods
[00:22:37] <les> I know they were forged
[00:22:48] <les> but also milled and turned
[00:23:19] <pfred1> when yo uread henery's bio you'll be amazed at how he is constantly getting turned away by war departments when he's using his cast steel guns in trials for him
[00:23:40] <les> I have a rifle made in 1841 and it has milling machine marks on it
[00:23:41] <pfred1> people are resistant to change!
[00:24:01] <les> yup
[00:24:03] <pfred1> gordon moore went through it with the development of the IC
[00:24:13] <pfred1> no one wanted anything to do with the things!
[00:24:41] <pfred1> no your chip is not going to go into our shiny new jet fighter we're going to use this clunky old soldered together board of transistors!
[00:24:58] <les> It took 6 years for my best car part invention to sell
[00:25:31] <pfred1> I guess it stems from the too good to be true axiom
[00:25:38] <les> no one wanted it
[00:26:15] <pfred1> I've seen it happen to me stuff that was way better than I'd have given it credit for being before I'd experienced it
[00:26:36] <pfred1> we all have preconceptions that are hard to break down
[00:27:01] <pfred1> heck most of us pride ourselves in "not caving in"
[00:27:51] <les> getting a bit of that trying to sell Linux for factory automation
[00:28:03] <pfred1> Linux is a perfect example!
[00:28:11] <pfred1> it's free how damned good can it possibly be?
[00:28:38] <pfred1> this other stuff costs us buku bucks it's gotta rule!
[00:29:11] <les> I have a good chance getting it in there because I developed the product to be manufactured
[00:29:12] <pfred1> but I've seen this stuff run non stop for over 3 years
[00:29:20] <pfred1> nah it sucks!
[00:29:55] <pfred1> les I couldn't have thought up a better example than Linux
[00:30:25] <les> I depend on Linux/emc for a living
[00:30:26] <pfred1> it took bessimer a long time it'll happen for Linux someday too
[00:30:51] <pfred1> I remember years ago there was this little joke called "World Domination"
[00:31:01] <pfred1> just something that was bandied about in the Linux community
[00:31:13] <pfred1> then it turned around to you know this could happen?
[00:31:27] <pfred1> then there was the 5 year plan where it looked like Linux would dominate in about 5 years
[00:31:34] <pfred1> but that came and went
[00:31:50] <pfred1> but you know what? Linux is still here still going on and someday it's day will come!
[00:32:39] <pfred1> open sourfe is just so much better a model than closed source it has to eventually win out
[00:32:59] <les> That is the concept I have to sell
[00:33:29] <pfred1> there is no long term for closed source here today gone and forgotten tomorrow nothing you can do about it either
[00:34:11] <pfred1> when Microsoft says a product has reached it's "end of life" I eman what you going to do bribe Bill Gates?
[00:35:07] <les> I have to pull these guys away from proprietary RT operating systems
[00:35:14] <les> QNX etc
[00:35:22] <pfred1> I was just going to say QNX
[00:35:32] <les> and get them on RTAI
[00:35:52] <pfred1> thing is with QNX I mean what's a developer's license cost for the stuff?
[00:36:09] <pfred1> then you gotta sleep in the cone of silence
[00:36:13] <les> a lot for most of them
[00:36:24] <les> I want open source
[00:36:25] <pfred1> in case you mumble in your sleep
[00:36:35] <pfred1> yeah it's a headache
[00:36:36] <les> ha
[00:37:13] <les> well...better hit the shop...have a quick carving job to work in between writing code
[00:37:19] <pfred1> I've seen jokers on IRC come up with kernel patches that work!
[00:37:52] <pfred1> yeah the turkeys are calling ya good chatting
[00:38:00] <les> good talking to you Paul
[00:38:12] <pfred1> yeah I'm back to my CNC so I may be around
[01:05:54] <paul_c> Keith ??
[01:06:04] <bmurphy> yes
[01:06:09] <bmurphy> how are u doing
[01:06:14] <bmurphy> just read your email
[01:06:18] <paul_c> Whatho, me old fruit
[01:07:43] <paul_c> Have you had any luck with picax yet ?
[01:07:52] <bmurphy> well, i can generate the isos
[01:08:02] <bmurphy> that is a big step these days:)
[01:08:05] <paul_c> but not from sarge ?
[01:08:10] <bmurphy> i will test them when I get home from work
[01:08:12] <bmurphy> well, no
[01:08:34] <bmurphy> why the big fuss about using sarge? the components are more current
[01:08:51] <bmurphy> at least in most cases
[01:09:14] <paul_c> Some of the components appear to built from sid
[01:09:15] <bmurphy> until the other day I had no clue we didn't have to use sarge
[01:09:19] <bmurphy> right
[01:09:36] <bmurphy> some packages are being brought in from sid
[01:10:06] <paul_c> and I'd rather just add a list of package names to the comps without worring about building a component
[01:10:08] <bmurphy> if i can get a good working set of iso's i am going to update my howto significan't
[01:10:23] <bmurphy> hmmm
[01:10:55] <bmurphy> well, i think in the long run it will be nice to be able to interchange components..
[01:11:15] <paul_c> Also a little concerned about duplicating packages in components...
[01:11:41] <bmurphy> the warnings messages gen'd by picax?
[01:12:24] <bmurphy> one of the things we have to decide is the "boundaries" of components, and depenedancys...how to handle
[01:12:28] <pfred1> bmurphy where is your howto at?
[01:12:33] <paul_c> well.... If I have a componet that uses foo.deb, and it is also included in another component...
[01:12:37] <bmurphy> some components depending on others..that sort of thing
[01:12:43] <bmurphy> exactly
[01:12:55] <paul_c> yes - Kinda gets messy in places.
[01:12:59] <bmurphy> that is still being chewed over by minds much smarter than mine
[01:13:12] <bmurphy> this is early evolution of components
[01:13:35] <paul_c> and I must admit, some of the packages in a few of the components, I would leave out...
[01:13:40] <bmurphy> lol
[01:13:51] <paul_c> You really needs sound on a computer
[01:14:01] <paul_c> \you\who\
[01:14:20] <bmurphy> well, once sarge settles down and goes to stable, i figure I will pull in a baseline set of components and customize them to my hearts content
[01:14:31] <pfred1> paul_c me!
[01:14:51] <bmurphy> u having a issue with sound on your install?
[01:14:54] <paul_c> pfred1: 'spose you want games too !
[01:15:13] <pfred1> paul_c no I don't play games in my shop like to listen to music once in a while though
[01:15:27] <paul_c> I don't bother about sound support
[01:15:31] <bmurphy> but first..before I start customizing i need a setup that works
[01:15:37] <paul_c> ditto
[01:15:43] <bmurphy> oh..i see
[01:16:01] <paul_c> and I only have a couple of weeks to get the first build done.
[01:16:12] <bmurphy> is this for work?
[01:16:33] <paul_c> For a client in SoCal.
[01:16:44] <bmurphy> geez..i need some of those :)
[01:16:56] <bmurphy> what are they looking for?
[01:17:15] <paul_c> I've been messing around with custom distros for several years as a hobby
[01:17:47] <bmurphy> i have been working on this since February of this year
[01:18:03] <bmurphy> not even close to good at it, but getting there
[01:18:16] <paul_c> darn - I'd got you pegged as a long time expert on picax...;)
[01:18:34] <bmurphy> i had everything going good until i started playing with the "beta" components and sarge went to hell in a handbasket
[01:18:39] <bmurphy> lol
[01:18:48] <bmurphy> that would be dario and jeff/ian
[01:18:59] <bmurphy> i bluff my way around
[01:19:09] <bmurphy> but the more i do it the better i bluff :)
[01:19:25] <paul_c> well... I found your howto to be easier to follow than the Dummies Guide
[01:19:59] <bmurphy> well, i am a better documenter than coder
[01:19:59] <bmurphy> i think my best contribs will be in that area
[01:20:16] <bmurphy> all though i did submit one tiny little patch..grub changed and moved some dumb directory..
[01:20:36] <bmurphy> i need to get the guide updated some
[01:20:43] <paul_c> Following the thread of the link you sent over, I see you've already figured out comp2repo
[01:21:12] <bmurphy> get a good decent build again, and then start working with the new cl-tools commands ..the comp-get or whatever
[01:21:15] <bmurphy> well, yes
[01:21:17] <bmurphy> i suppose
[01:21:31] <bmurphy> i can make it work, but not sure I understand what it is for
[01:22:14] <bmurphy> because when i used it to pull everything in from sarge to the component repo..i still got just as many multiple version errors
[01:22:17] <paul_c> Added a comp for KDE, and comp2repo pulled in all the packages
[01:22:18] <bmurphy> it was weird
[01:22:26] <bmurphy> yeah
[01:22:37] <bmurphy> i think it would work better for that than what i was trying to do
[01:22:50] <paul_c> dunno why it needs to pull the sources in too...
[01:23:01] <pfred1> bmurphy so you package EMC for Debian?
[01:23:16] <bmurphy> umm..i don't even know what EMC is at this point :)
[01:23:37] <bmurphy> so what have i stumbled into paul?
[01:23:38] <paul_c> pfred1: bmurphy is an expert on anaconda and building distros
[01:23:51] <paul_c> www.linuxcnc.org
[01:23:58] <bmurphy> pfred..paul is being way to gracious
[01:24:09] <bmurphy> i play with it in my copious free time
[01:24:12] <pfred1> bmurphy yeah from what i gather it's the group of packages that makes the whole CNC thing go
[01:24:18] <paul_c> EMC is a software package for controlling CNC machine tools
[01:24:23] <bmurphy> ok
[01:24:37] <paul_c> running under a realtime linux kernel
[01:24:49] <pfred1> ah BDI is RT?
[01:25:08] <paul_c> RTAI or RTLinux (for the older one)
[01:25:24] <bmurphy> i see..i looked at site
[01:25:30] <bmurphy> now what u are doing makes more sense
[01:25:41] <bmurphy> so u want to pack a distro for your EMC package
[01:25:45] <pfred1> bmurphy no it doesn't
[01:25:46] <bmurphy> so u want a very small setup
[01:25:46] <paul_c> The first BDI CD was based on RH6.2
[01:26:14] <paul_c> Don't need much of what comes with a general purpose distr
[01:26:21] <bmurphy> right
[01:26:28] <paul_c> but I do need to add some specific tools
[01:26:40] <bmurphy> so make a seperate emc component
[01:26:43] <paul_c> mainly CAD/CAM and of course EMC
[01:26:50] <bmurphy> and just use the minimal core package
[01:27:09] <pfred1> bmurphy does make more sense to make a package to me
[01:27:22] <pfred1> then just slap it onto existing distro
[01:27:41] <bmurphy> well, ok, but if the existing distro has a large footprint that isn't good
[01:27:43] <paul_c> got to debianize EMC real soon...
[01:28:00] <pfred1> paul_c gave gentoo any thought?
[01:28:13] <paul_c> where's that wet kipper...
[01:29:26] <paul_c> Using KDE as the default WM doesn't make for a small install.
[01:29:27] <bmurphy> paul..when is the last time u built a comps.xml from the skel file?
[01:29:38] <paul_c> errr.... never.
[01:29:52] <bmurphy> ok
[01:29:55] <pfred1> paul_c that's the answer I'd have had to have given
[01:30:04] <paul_c> Been trying to get the first CD to build & boot.
[01:30:08] <bmurphy> ok
[01:30:33] <bmurphy> well, lets lick that this weekend, then u can yank apart the comps file...that part will be fairly easy
[01:30:35] <pfred1> bmurphy when I'm walking down the street someday I'm going to randomly ask someone, "when is the last time u built a comps.xml from the skel file?"
[01:30:37] <paul_c> Figured once I had a working baseline, I could start hacking
[01:30:40] <bmurphy> lol
[01:30:46] <bmurphy> yes
[01:31:02] <bmurphy> i customized my previous setup
[01:31:21] <bmurphy> and u really will have a small setup since u want minimal packages
[01:31:49] <bmurphy> when u booted your last cd..did u do a custom install paul?
[01:32:01] <paul_c> Yes - Got to work out how to give the usr a choice of window managers...
[01:32:12] <bmurphy> if so, did u then see a group called "minimal"? because that is something new
[01:32:13] <paul_c> Icewm is nice & light.
[01:33:00] <pfred1> here's a cute distro http://peeweelinux.com/
[01:33:50] <paul_c> a minimal component (for me) would include much of lsb-2.0
[01:34:07] <bmurphy> not all of lsb?
[01:34:13] <paul_c> and a few bits from lsb-devel & cl-devel.
[01:34:28] <bmurphy> what about icewm that u are talking about?
[01:35:05] <pfred1> I been running WindowMaker since ver .14 so I'm a little partial towards it myself
[01:35:21] <paul_c> let's see.... lsb-2.0 contains cdrecord + several dev. tools.
[01:36:02] <pfred1> paul_c you want to see minimal distro that'll blow you away run Tom's RTBT disk
[01:36:15] <paul_c> http://www.icewm.org/
[01:36:35] <pfred1> paul_c you ever run Tom's RTBT?
[01:36:49] <paul_c> pfred1: or try damnedsmalllinux
[01:36:51] <bmurphy> well here is what i would suggest paul...get a working build
[01:37:05] <pfred1> hmm I'll have to give that one a go
[01:37:11] <pfred1> is it one floppy?
[01:37:12] <bmurphy> then take the comps.xml and remove all groups you know you don't want..like audio
[01:37:19] <bmurphy> and graphics, kerberos, etc
[01:37:24] <pfred1> bmurphy not audio!
[01:37:38] <bmurphy> then trim down lsb
[01:37:47] <paul_c> You don't need sound in a workshop !
[01:37:50] <bmurphy> and make a group for your stuff
[01:37:56] <bmurphy> i understand
[01:38:00] <bmurphy> i am saying pull it out
[01:38:02] <pfred1> paul_c helps me be creative
[01:38:29] <pfred1> paul_c fine I'll have another machine down there just to be dedicated sound machine
[01:38:47] <paul_c> Will picax warn me if I break any dependencies ?
[01:39:00] <bmurphy> good question
[01:39:02] <bmurphy> it should
[01:39:21] <bmurphy> it works through the packages files which do list dependancies
[01:39:44] <paul_c> is picax smart enough to pull in missing packages from (for example) sarge...
[01:39:49] <bmurphy> yes
[01:39:53] <bmurphy> it should do that
[01:40:04] <bmurphy> course right now we don't have sarge :(
[01:40:35] <bmurphy> but, if we pulled from the mirror --picax uses apt which automatcially handles deps
[01:40:50] <bmurphy> how long u been using debian paul?
[01:40:56] <paul_c> I ran comp2repo on the components, and picax went on to use sarge without any complaints
[01:41:07] <bmurphy> cool
[01:41:18] <paul_c> 18 months with Debian.
[01:41:21] <bmurphy> ok
[01:41:38] <paul_c> mumblemumble years with Linux.
[01:41:47] <pfred1> hmm here's a distro that looks like a 2 floppy x window system http://www.thepub.nildram.co.uk/mirrors/2diskxwin/2diskXwin.htm
[01:42:02] <bmurphy> so u just started with empty component directories and had comp2repo pull in everything?
[01:42:24] <pfred1> bmurphy I ran debian before they started naming htem after toystory chars
[01:42:31] <pfred1> like before the movie came out!
[01:42:39] <bmurphy> been a while then fred
[01:42:47] <pfred1> 1996
[01:42:50] <paul_c> I used a populated CL mirror then ran comp2repo
[01:43:04] <bmurphy> that is what i did paul .. but didn't work in my case
[01:43:06] <bmurphy> weird
[01:43:16] <pfred1> and to be brutally honest it hasn't gotten much better over the years :(
[01:43:17] <paul_c> some of the stuff is only available from Progeny.
[01:43:27] <bmurphy> true paul
[01:43:50] <paul_c> and of course the RT kernel package.
[01:43:52] <pfred1> last time I tried debian it had broken packages in it
[01:44:26] <bmurphy> thats what happens when u have 15,000 packages fred..mistakes get made
[01:44:28] <pfred1> paul_c you'd be happy what packages were broken they were the ALSA sound drivers!
[01:44:39] <paul_c> If you want stable, try Woody.
[01:44:50] <pfred1> it was the stable branch that didn't work
[01:45:02] <paul_c> or for bleeding edge, experimental.
[01:45:07] <pfred1> had i went with the unstable it might have worked
[01:45:10] <bmurphy> alsa hasn't worked well in woody from what i understand
[01:45:21] <bmurphy> i have been using sarge for quite some time.
[01:45:34] <paul_c> same here
[01:45:41] <bmurphy> i haven't had any issues of late with sound
[01:45:51] <paul_c> with the odd package from sid..
[01:45:53] <pfred1> well none of it inspired a whole lot of confidance with me so I run SuSE now
[01:45:53] <bmurphy> and i am makeing a desktop version so I WANT sound
[01:46:04] <bmurphy> that is waht we run here at Ford
[01:46:20] <pfred1> SuSE is borderline getting there
[01:46:41] <bmurphy> well, i don't want to turn this into a distro flame war
[01:47:13] <pfred1> bmurphy the simple fact is there's way too many Linux distros most not worth the media they'
[01:47:14] <bmurphy> paul..if u need any help pruning the comps file just let me know
[01:47:17] <pfred1> bmurphy the simple fact is there's way too many Linux distros most not worth the media they're on
[01:47:23] <bmurphy> i would agree what that fred
[01:47:23] <paul_c> Who's for a bit of vi/emacs bashing then ;}
[01:48:06] <bmurphy> one thing u might run into..i am not sure..but i don't think u can change the screen where it ask what type of install u want.."desktop, server, custom.."
[01:48:20] <bmurphy> it is hard coded into the setup and not amendable to change
[01:48:35] <pfred1> debian install is a python script isn't it?
[01:48:40] <paul_c> That can be changed with a bit of python bashing
[01:48:41] <pfred1> oh wait it's perl
[01:48:42] <bmurphy> there was a bit of discusssion about it on the mailing list for anaconda
[01:48:56] <pfred1> redhat is python
[01:49:02] <bmurphy> i have no idea fred
[01:49:21] <bmurphy> i love my anaconda so its all i work with :)
[01:49:23] <pfred1> that's the whole where they got the anaconda from get it snakes?
[01:49:31] <paul_c> Debian uses perl for package installation & control
[01:50:00] <pfred1> yeah but deb's installer is a perl script
[01:50:26] <paul_c> and now we have anaconda that uses debs ;)
[01:50:29] <bmurphy> i might have a bone to pick with suse, but we use IBM servers here tht run linux..and they make me drool..wish i could take a few home
[01:50:37] <pfred1> I donno to me the whole debian project is complete chaos
[01:50:38] <bmurphy> quad proc boxes
[01:51:00] <bmurphy> fred, debian has always been the way it is..not going to change
[01:51:02] <bmurphy> no need to
[01:51:05] <paul_c> * paul_c wants to play with big clusters
[01:51:08] <pfred1> bmurphy in a few years they'll be so much ballast in the bottom of a dumpster
[01:51:12] <bmurphy> after 11 years...why should they
[01:51:16] <bmurphy> lol
[01:51:24] <bmurphy> i see
[01:51:45] <pfred1> I should hit the dumps, ah i mean my computer store today see what's on special over there
[01:51:55] <paul_c> Do you know if kickstart works with CL ?
[01:52:16] <paul_c> Hi FloH
[01:52:24] <bmurphy> did u read about the new SGI cluster that NASA is getting?
[01:52:36] <bmurphy> paul..sorta
[01:52:45] <pfred1> bmurphy my latest project i picked up fro mthere is an HP Kayak XU 6/450 dual pentium II 450
[01:52:53] <bmurphy> its being worked on but I understand some people have been sucessful in the install
[01:53:24] <bmurphy> hang on i will get some of the specifics
[01:53:30] <bmurphy> i think a nfs install worked..
[01:53:34] <paul_c> As long as the %post in kickstart works, that will do me.
[01:53:44] <pfred1> yeah i use ftp installs myself anymore
[01:53:56] <pfred1> network install seems to be way to fly now a days
[01:55:03] <paul_c> Not everyone is plugged in to a high speed n/w
[01:55:15] <pfred1> paul_c their loss :)
[01:55:17] <bmurphy> check this out paul - lists.progeny.com/archive/cl-workers/200407/msg00058.html
[01:55:27] <bmurphy> that was from a couple months ago
[01:55:42] <pfred1> even out in the boonies you can get high speed sat connections
[01:56:16] <bmurphy> it is something i want to investigate paul..i have a project i am working on that will require KS
[01:56:25] <bmurphy> and of course i want to use paragon
[01:56:42] <paul_c> I just need to do some post-install tweaks
[01:57:26] <paul_c> like setting kdm up for auto-login
[01:57:37] <bmurphy> i would love to put together some docs on how to do kS with comp - linux
[01:57:44] <paul_c> and locking the background images for KDE
[01:58:09] <bmurphy> u using kde? i thought u were using ice
[01:58:26] <pfred1> damn small isn't very small
[01:58:40] <paul_c> KDE for the main distro, and icewm for the lightweight install.
[01:58:49] <bmurphy> i C
[01:59:15] <pfred1> paul_c KDE is nice it is a pig though
[01:59:19] <bmurphy> be back i n5
[01:59:20] <paul_c> When I've tried the %post KS, I'll mail my notes over.
[01:59:28] <bmurphy> that would be cool
[01:59:53] <bmurphy> i am moving my domain to another host..and setting it up with plone so it will be a lot easier for me to manage
[02:00:03] <bmurphy> and that will help with the docs
[02:00:05] <SteveStallings> Paul - Is most of this discussion about trying to make a lightweight install? Do you hope to support embedded style systems with flash for disk?
[02:00:12] <pfred1> here's a distro i can believe in http://beernix.berlios.de/
[02:01:44] <paul_c> SteveStallings: bmurphy has been working on some Debian based distros, and I picked up on his efforts while researching a BDI-2 replacement
[02:02:21] <paul_c> We are both working with anaconda from Progeny
[02:03:29] <paul_c> Now... embedded systems can get very tight on space - How much flash storage are you thinking about ?
[02:04:34] <SteveStallings> I seem to remember that 128M Compact Flash that fits the board I sent was reasonably priced.
[02:04:59] <paul_c> Plenty of room ;)
[02:05:26] <paul_c> with a GUI or ncurses interface ?
[02:06:33] <pfred1> paul_c I went through this whole webpage how come i didn't see BDI on it? http://www.linux.org/dist/list.html
[02:06:58] <SteveStallings> It would be neat to have a diskless machine on a local network and a GUI of some sort. Not particular about window manager, nor needing a fancy GUI.
[02:07:06] <paul_c> There a loads of custom distro not listed.
[02:07:51] <paul_c> TinyX running a tkemc without a WM...
[02:08:23] <paul_c> or even xemc
[02:09:18] <SteveStallings> Sounds good to me, TKEMC allows for easy customization.
[02:09:48] <paul_c> but tcl/tk libs add a fair bit to the install size.
[02:10:21] <paul_c> A custom GUI written with fltk would be much smaller.
[02:11:06] <pfred1> paul_c don't be chinzy
[02:12:08] <paul_c> Have you looked at fltk ??
[02:12:44] <pfred1> paul_c my point being someone may need tcl/tk for other things
[02:13:21] <paul_c> But Steve was asking about a minimal install on a flash card.
[02:14:39] <pfred1> paul_c yeah does not sound easy
[02:15:27] <pfred1> now i heard with flash distros if you try to run all on flash you burn the card out
[02:15:42] <pfred1> because flash memory isn't really made to change states very often
[02:15:47] <SteveStallings> Yes, a system running on flash card, hardened for operation in a machine shop. Development can happen on another machine.
[02:15:50] <paul_c> There are ways to limit the effects
[02:16:14] <paul_c> Mount the card Read-Only
[02:16:26] <paul_c> use RAM disks, and NFS mounts
[02:16:32] <pfred1> SteveStallings so far to be frank i have to admit just how harsh an envoronment I've had PCs running in
[02:16:45] <pfred1> they put up with it!
[02:17:25] <pfred1> freaking HDDs aren't as fragine well not all of them at anyrate as one is lead to believe they are
[02:18:05] <pfred1> I got a PC here that was crushed by a front eld loader not a bad sector on the drive
[02:18:05] <SteveStallings> What I can get away with for myself and what I am willing to support in the field for a custome is another matter. Plus, the less it looks like a conventional computer, the less likely the customer is to futz with it.
[02:19:05] <pfred1> the creases on the case give it character i think :)
[02:19:25] <pfred1> it's a true blue IBM BTW for those that want to know
[02:19:36] <pfred1> IBM makes a hell of a box!
[02:20:56] <pfred1> SteveStallings there's some case styles out there that if yo udon't know the right tricks you just about have to resort to a crowbar to get them open
[02:21:10] <pfred1> COmpaq systems come to mind ...
[02:22:10] <pfred1> that or warranty void if factory seal is broken tape is always a nice touch
[02:22:34] <bmurphy> hey paul..did u do the logos on the website?
[02:22:37] <bmurphy> they are cool
[02:22:46] <pfred1> bmurphy URL?
[02:23:42] <paul_c> Chips (the Tux lookalike) was done by a guy in Scotland
[02:24:07] <bmurphy> www.linuxcnc.org
[02:24:14] <bmurphy> i like it
[02:24:44] <paul_c> www.linuxcnc.org/bdi - You get to see the graphics on the CD
[02:25:14] <pfred1> bmurphy that penguin looks like he wants to give someone a Colonoscopsy
[02:25:25] <pfred1> he scares me!
[02:26:29] <bmurphy> that page was the one i was looking at paul..its sharp
[02:26:31] <paul_c> * paul_c checks the size of the CF card....
[02:26:44] <bmurphy> i have to come up with some logo for paragon
[02:27:06] <pfred1> bmurphy you're the paragon are you?
[02:27:29] <bmurphy> umm..yes
[02:27:42] <bmurphy> don't tell anybody..i'm keeping it a secret
[02:27:47] <pfred1> bmurphy a regular paragon of virtue I'm sure :)
[02:27:55] <bmurphy> *yawning*
[02:28:04] <bmurphy> this shift is just TOO long
[02:28:05] <pfred1> bmurphy hey just use a diamond
[02:28:28] <bmurphy> hmmmm....*thinking*
[02:28:34] <pfred1> a paragon is also an unflawed diamond of at least 100 carats
[02:28:40] <bmurphy> it is a possiblity
[02:28:49] <bmurphy> and where the heck did u pull that from?
[02:28:52] <pfred1> plus diamonds look cool ya gotta admit
[02:28:59] <pfred1> http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=paragon
[02:29:15] <pfred1> * pfred1 has a few for running across grinding wheels i nthe shop ...
[02:29:35] <pfred1> yea hthat's it when i hit the lottery I'm gonna get me some paragons to dress my wheels with!
[02:29:41] <paul_c> but not at 100K
[02:29:54] <pfred1> I used to make fluid motion wheel dressers
[02:30:05] <bmurphy> thats cool
[02:30:09] <bmurphy> i didn't know that
[02:30:16] <pfred1> I bet henry is dead by now
[02:30:24] <bmurphy> i used it because it means a model of excellence
[02:30:31] <pfred1> yeah if it was me I'd go with some sort of a diamond
[02:30:42] <bmurphy> i just might fred
[02:30:57] <pfred1> cmon everyone loves to be associated with diamonds
[02:31:04] <bmurphy> some big - ol liz taylor diamond
[02:31:05] <pfred1> a girl's best friend!
[02:31:05] <bmurphy> lol
[02:31:24] <pfred1> diamonds go over big in industry too
[02:31:58] <bmurphy> *humming along to kerry livgren **
[02:32:27] <pfred1> bmurphy ever read any sci-fi?
[02:32:33] <bmurphy> i did years ago
[02:32:44] <bmurphy> i don't read anything anymore that isn't computer stuff
[02:32:52] <pfred1> bmurphy diamonds made me think of this title http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0553573314/102-6717583-9724932?v=glance
[02:33:03] <pfred1> I still read cyberpunk now and again kinda got a thing for it
[02:33:45] <pfred1> but messing with computers and CNC and stuff me buying into cyberpunk isn't much of a leap really
[02:34:47] <pfred1> Snow Crash now that's a bad assed title!
[02:35:03] <pfred1> I got an electronic copy of that floating around here someplace ...
[02:35:20] <pfred1> * cough bookwarez cough *
[02:37:29] <pfred1> bmurphy you ever read any Stephenson?
[02:41:39] <paul_c> Hi newbie
[02:42:13] <pfred1> paul_c scared them off!
[02:42:53] <paul_c> Better a friendly greating than total silence.
[02:43:00] <bmurphy> so do u do this full time paul?
[02:43:32] <pfred1> bmurphy the real question is when are you going to be done Paul?
[02:43:33] <paul_c> as in "I don't have a proper job", yes.
[02:43:40] <bmurphy> lol
[02:43:44] <bmurphy> thats cool
[02:43:55] <paul_c> * paul_c reaches for the cattle prod.
[02:43:57] <bmurphy> that means u work for yourself..
[02:44:08] <bmurphy> longer hours
[02:44:09] <bmurphy> lower pay
[02:44:23] <pfred1> bmurphy the boss is always an asshole when you work for yourself!
[02:44:26] <paul_c> Employed by HRM.gov
[02:44:50] <bmurphy> ah
[02:44:56] <paul_c> currently unemployed.
[02:45:02] <pfred1> can never call him up cough into the reciever say you're sick!
[02:45:15] <paul_c> but it gives me a chance to play.
[02:45:45] <paul_c> and do the odd interesting job.
[02:45:57] <bmurphy> i was out of the computer bus for 2 and a half years before i got this job last month
[02:46:07] <pfred1> paul_c hey if work was any fun they'd charge admission not pay you!
[02:46:44] <paul_c> * paul_c has had a couple offers of employ...
[02:47:15] <pfred1> you're always better off doing what you hate for work
[02:47:29] <pfred1> that way you never mess up whatever it is that you like
[02:47:35] <paul_c> need one of those green cards...
[02:50:38] <bmurphy> sorry, i disconnected myself
[02:50:41] <bmurphy> how intellingent
[02:50:55] <pfred1> bmurphy sometimes i have a disconnected feeling too
[02:51:57] <pfred1> whelp the weather's fine I'm going outside for a few here's something to read in those vast empty spaces http://artlung.com/smorgasborg/C_R_Y_P_T_O_N_O_M_I_C_O_N.shtml
[02:53:34] <bmurphy> see u fred
[04:03:40] <paul_c> Hi Ray
[04:03:56] <rayh> Hi Paul. How you doing today?
[04:05:08] <paul_c> Started working on a set of Debian rules.
[04:05:28] <rayh> For EMC?
[04:05:59] <paul_c> yup
[04:06:49] <rayh> Neet. That package will really smooth out upgrades for a lot of folk.
[04:07:21] <paul_c> In conjunction with the kernel & RT packages, yup.
[04:07:54] <rayh> You said that you had an rtai kernel. Was that a deb package?
[04:08:08] <paul_c> yes
[04:08:25] <rayh> Who maintains that?
[04:08:56] <paul_c> http://81.100.211.99/debs/binaries/
[04:11:17] <rayh> Okay. How difficult will it be to keep it up?
[04:11:47] <paul_c> Could almost set up a cron job to run once a month.
[04:12:45] <rayh> No kidding. What are the differences between bdi60 and 61
[04:13:18] <rayh> and why label the kernel and modules with the bdi version?
[04:13:33] <danfalck> good morning guys
[04:13:45] <paul_c> minor change to one of the modules
[04:13:51] <rayh> Hi Dan. Feeling any better?
[04:14:03] <paul_c> cramfs is compiled in (as I recall).
[04:14:21] <danfalck> yea. I've been fooling around with rc46 while sitting around here
[04:14:38] <rayh> Get it going?
[04:14:47] <danfalck> rayh: I set up ssh last night
[04:15:06] <rayh> So it's installed?
[04:15:10] <danfalck> so I have it running through an Apple Cube
[04:15:20] <danfalck> my internet computer
[04:15:22] <rayh> Great.
[04:15:36] <danfalck> initially, I set up bdi2.18 and had X working
[04:15:47] <danfalck> EMC running on the Apple!
[04:15:54] <danfalck> it was awesome
[04:16:10] <danfalck> it runs much faster through ssh than throug VNC
[04:16:12] <rayh> You can see an x display through ssh?
[04:16:16] <danfalck> yes
[04:16:33] <rayh> Wow. You need to write that up.
[04:16:37] <danfalck> now though, I have rc46 going and the X display is being refused
[04:17:04] <danfalck> We are using ssh at work to run ProE throug a linux box to our Apple machines
[04:17:06] <rayh> I am a total newbee when it comes to ssh.
[04:17:10] <danfalck> it's pretty cool
[04:17:35] <danfalck> So, it looks like there is a setting on rc46 ssh that isn't X forwarding
[04:17:37] <paul_c> I think you'll need to configure Xhosts
[04:17:50] <paul_c> to allow exporting via eth0
[04:17:55] <danfalck> paul_c: thanks, I will look into that today
[04:17:58] <rayh> I'd bet. So the linux is ap serving ProE
[04:18:16] <danfalck> rayh: yes it is. It's amazing!
[04:18:40] <rayh> I tried the ssh X one time but got text with 46 also.
[04:18:47] <danfalck> it's running on a dog slow p450, so it runs slow on my machine (ProE)
[04:19:08] <danfalck> So, I'm excited today
[04:19:25] <rayh> Smithy is running about 30 ltsp terminals from a single server.
[04:19:39] <danfalck> I can see using one monitor between two machines my small shop
[04:19:54] <rayh> Certainly.
[04:20:10] <danfalck> rayh: what kind of terminals?
[04:20:27] <rayh> I've thought a lot about using all black boxes at each machine and a single display with all the graphical interfaces.
[04:21:06] <danfalck> I plan on the mill being next to the lathe with one display
[04:21:09] <rayh> LTSP is a linux project. Portland public schools had a lot to do with the developement. Red Hat worked with them on it.
[04:21:39] <danfalck> rayh: oh that's right. you told me about that a while ago.
[04:23:14] <rayh> Smithy purchased the official ltsp terminals. 1.5x5x6 total
[04:24:28] <rayh> I could really see a lot of use for ssh and x for troubleshooting a users EMC software.
[04:24:38] <danfalck> paul_c: sorry to be lazy, but where would I find Xhosts? etc/X11?
[04:25:03] <danfalck> I'm looking right now...locat Xhosts
[04:26:25] <paul_c> man xhost
[04:26:31] <danfalck> ok thanks
[04:38:13] <danfalck> I guess I need to be 'root' at the actual machine that I am altering- xhost
[04:38:23] <paul_c> Yay... This deb rule stuff looks as if it is going to be fairly easy
[04:38:51] <paul_c> emc_0.0.0-0_i386.deb is done.
[04:41:52] <paul_c> * paul_c is away: Gone for food
[05:00:10] <danfalck> rayh: success again!
[05:00:28] <danfalck> Check /etc/ssh/sshd_config for a line saying "X11Forwarding yes".
[05:00:45] <danfalck> on bdi rc_46 machine
[05:00:55] <danfalck> then on client:
[05:01:22] <danfalck> ssh -l dan -X dan@192.168xxxx (nic address)
[05:01:48] <danfalck> kedit works on the Mac OS X box
[05:01:59] <danfalck> I will log in as root and try EMC now
[05:02:32] <paul_c> log in as a normal usr
[05:02:40] <paul_c> and use sudo
[05:03:33] <rayh> Hey that's great.
[05:04:31] <danfalck> i have sherline_inch going!
[05:07:05] <danfalck> rayh: do you want to see a screen shot?
[05:07:40] <danfalck> 356 kb
[05:10:08] <rayh> Certainly.
[05:12:54] <danfalck> is it coming through?
[05:13:16] <rayh> I may have a problem. It says waiting.
[05:13:48] <rayh> Ah. Got it on the way.
[05:14:08] <danfalck> irc is nice
[05:14:29] <rayh> It's connected by I don't seeany transfer.
[05:14:48] <danfalck> i will try again
[05:16:15] <rayh> Not gonna do it. I'll have to look at my settings. Want to send email?
[05:16:34] <danfalck> sure
[05:17:41] <rayh> Try it again here?
[05:18:21] <danfalck> ok. it's on the way
[05:18:32] <danfalck> email that is
[05:18:41] <danfalck> try again here too
[05:20:07] <rayh> Nope. I'll keep looking at the settings.
[05:20:53] <rayh> I see the mail coming through. About a week and I shouldhave it.
[05:22:57] <danfalck> sorry for the length. I'll trim it down next time
[05:24:15] <rayh> No problem.
[05:25:16] <danfalck> I'm very excited about this. I have been limited on space for a computer
[05:25:22] <danfalck> this will change everything
[05:25:41] <danfalck> funny how it is- bigger house but less space for stuff....
[05:26:04] <rayh> It's here. That looks great. I'll have to forward to my son Joe. He's a mac nut.
[05:26:37] <danfalck> the speed from bdi2.18 was great. rc46 is very slow
[05:26:56] <danfalck> would changing to icewm help?
[05:27:28] <danfalck> I will try running without X (is that possible?)
[05:28:47] <danfalck> nope. need X for sure.
[05:42:35] <rayh> * rayh gotta run
[06:39:05] <ottos> good day gents..
[06:42:18] <ottos> just of criosity would you think EMC will ever support NURBS interpolation?
[07:13:49] <paul_c> * paul_c is back
[08:03:10] <danfalck> paul_c: I got the Xserver for ssh working
[08:04:49] <paul_c> xhost +
[08:06:28] <danfalck> Check /etc/ssh/sshd_config for a line saying "X11Forwarding yes".
[08:09:40] <paul_c> and got a basic debian package built for EMC
[08:10:45] <danfalck> how basic? as in small footprint?
[08:10:48] <paul_c> just need to sort out minor details like menu entries & tagging files as configs, and were done.
[08:15:49] <paul_c> emc.deb is just on 1Meg.
[08:38:51] <danfalck> paul_c: what to look at a screen shot of EMC running ssh on OS X?
[08:39:13] <paul_c> Evening daryl_v
[08:39:58] <daryl_v> Afternoon. :)
[09:04:23] <paul_c> hey danfalck - Missed your last question...
[09:04:27] <paul_c> Sure.
[09:15:12] <paul_c> wanna try that again ?
[09:59:05] <paul_c> methinks Dan's firewall is getting in the way.
[09:59:06] <danfalck> could be
[09:59:57] <paul_c> No route to host.
[10:01:19] <paul_c> try the old fashoned way email.
[10:01:26] <danfalck> ok
[10:05:08] <paul_c> Now... If we could get RTAI installed on the mac....
[10:05:23] <paul_c> there is a fair chance EMC would compile.
[10:05:56] <danfalck> I'm happy enough just ssh to a linux box
[10:06:29] <danfalck> just for the fun of it
[10:06:48] <danfalck> I can't afford to have a Mac in the shop
[10:06:48] <paul_c> Would also be interested to see if rcslib will compile under osX
[10:08:45] <paul_c> with the price of half decent ix86 kit, it's hardly worth risking a Mac.
[10:10:41] <danfalck> I just wanted to do it because I like this Mac for other stuff and it's sitting in my living room
[10:10:55] <danfalck> it's a great jukebox
[10:12:00] <danfalck> paul_c: let me try to send that file again.
[10:13:26] <danfalck> I need to re login to make the changes take effect.
[10:13:42] <danfalck> be back in a few....
[10:15:06] <danfalck> ok let me try again
[10:15:54] <danfalck> woops sorry
[10:31:36] <paul_c> Time for bed.
[13:54:25] <daryl_v> * daryl_v drops a pin.
[20:24:41] <alex_joni> hello...
[20:25:07] <alex_joni> anyone around?
[20:26:08] <pfred1> I'm around
[20:26:32] <alex_joni> hello there ;)
[20:26:36] <pfred1> hi
[20:26:43] <alex_joni> this is alex...
[20:28:05] <alex_joni> have you been around emc long?
[20:28:23] <pfred1> not this IRC channel if that is what you mean
[20:29:05] <alex_joni> actually emc in general...
[20:29:26] <pfred1> oh I started messing around with that in like 2002 I think it was
[20:29:29] <alex_joni> I'm kinda a late starter...I found emc early this year...
[20:29:36] <pfred1> so only like 2 years
[20:29:48] <alex_joni> but I really like the effort put in emc2
[20:29:55] <alex_joni> have you had the chance to try it out?
[20:29:58] <pfred1> well I'm a late finisher being as I've never actually run a machine with it yet myself
[20:30:03] <pfred1> I've run EMC itself
[20:30:15] <pfred1> but not on a machine not done with it
[20:30:29] <pfred1> I kind of work on it off and on
[20:30:50] <alex_joni> well... same here
[20:30:59] <alex_joni> I wanted to make a cutting machine
[20:31:05] <alex_joni> plasma or oxy-fuel
[20:31:14] <alex_joni> but I couldn't finish it yet...
[20:31:18] <alex_joni> mechanics I mean...
[20:31:26] <pfred1> if I were to make a cutting machine I'd go with water jet
[20:31:51] <pfred1> you ever seen water jet work?
[20:32:12] <pfred1> it'll cut clean through a foot of steel
[20:32:43] <alex_joni> yup... unfortunately it's expensive ...
[20:32:52] <pfred1> worth every penny
[20:33:00] <alex_joni> and here at work I sell Plasma-cutting machines
[20:33:14] <alex_joni> so... guess that's more handy ;)
[20:33:29] <pfred1> yeah they're nice
[20:34:24] <alex_joni> pretty cheap
[20:34:27] <pfred1> me I went lo tech with my mechanics it worked out pretty easily
[20:34:45] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is still learning about mechanics...
[20:35:10] <alex_joni> my BSc in computers is not very helpfull there ;)
[20:35:23] <pfred1> I used HDPE as anti backlash nuts and the guide bushings
[20:36:01] <pfred1> and hand ground threaded rod for the drive leads
[20:36:33] <pfred1> when I run it I'll see how long it holds up I bet it'll last a while
[20:37:21] <alex_joni> well... I wanna go with something like 3x6m
[20:37:27] <alex_joni> so I really need rack drive
[20:37:41] <pfred1> ah for speed?
[20:37:55] <pfred1> yeah mine's like 1x2 I guess
[20:38:04] <pfred1> feet
[20:39:37] <alex_joni> and for distance...
[20:39:53] <alex_joni> I was just reading through the logs here...
[20:40:06] <alex_joni> seen you had a long talk with paul...
[20:40:16] <alex_joni> make that paul_c
[20:40:22] <pfred1> he's the most active person on the channel
[20:41:41] <alex_joni> yup...
[20:41:50] <alex_joni> pretty long with the project too...
[20:41:53] <alex_joni> helped me a lot
[20:42:02] <pfred1> with your mechanics?
[20:42:34] <pfred1> he should be back on pretty soon maybe an hour or so I'd guess
[20:43:01] <alex_joni> more programming...
[20:43:09] <alex_joni> I did commit some stuff to emc2
[20:43:48] <pfred1> hmm when I ran emc it looked like it was complete to me
[20:44:53] <alex_joni> well.. kinda
[20:44:59] <alex_joni> but emc2 is a complete makeover
[20:45:06] <pfred1> really?
[20:45:07] <alex_joni> easier to maintain, develop, etc
[20:45:10] <alex_joni> yup
[20:45:17] <alex_joni> it has a HAL now
[20:45:18] <pfred1> oh on the packaging end?
[20:45:25] <alex_joni> a Hardware Abstraction Layer
[20:45:39] <alex_joni> packaging will get there too... right now not done yet
[20:45:40] <pfred1> not so sure i want HAL I saw what he did to those astronauts
[20:45:46] <alex_joni> lol
[20:45:52] <alex_joni> HAL is actually pretty cool
[20:46:10] <alex_joni> you have different entities
[20:46:22] <alex_joni> e.g. stepgen (step pulses generator)
[20:46:30] <pfred1> hey I got a question maybe you know the answer
[20:46:47] <alex_joni> and you can map (link signals) those outputs to other outputs (e.g. parport pins)
[20:46:54] <alex_joni> but it's very flexible...
[20:46:55] <pfred1> what's the minimum CPU power requirements for EMC these days?
[20:47:00] <alex_joni> hmmm...
[20:47:11] <alex_joni> that's more depending on what you wanna run
[20:47:18] <alex_joni> what GUI & stuff
[20:47:30] <alex_joni> but... I'm running EMC on a 300 Mhz SBC
[20:47:34] <alex_joni> doing ok
[20:47:35] <pfred1> say minimal setup
[20:47:46] <alex_joni> 've heared people running on way less...
[20:47:47] <pfred1> but gui not text
[20:47:54] <alex_joni> 150-200 MHz
[20:48:00] <alex_joni> should do the trick...
[20:48:15] <alex_joni> but if you go with steppers (output on parport)
[20:48:33] <alex_joni> you can't really have very fast stepping frequencies...
[20:48:38] <pfred1> because it's been an issue with me being as I've never completely run the stuff
[20:48:51] <alex_joni> depends also on your hardware part...
[20:49:03] <alex_joni> what motors you have, how you wanna drive them, etc
[20:49:33] <pfred1> well can you figure out your maximum outputted steps?
[20:49:50] <pfred1> like each machine must be only able to deliver a maximum step output right?
[20:49:56] <alex_joni> yes
[20:50:09] <alex_joni> thing is... you have a PERIOD parameter in your ini file
[20:50:14] <pfred1> yeah how would you figure that out?
[20:50:15] <alex_joni> and you can work with that
[20:50:27] <alex_joni> if you decrease your PERIOD it works faster
[20:50:29] <alex_joni> but...
[20:50:29] <pfred1> is there like a utility?
[20:50:33] <alex_joni> no :(
[20:50:38] <pfred1> hmmm
[20:50:39] <alex_joni> it's trial-and-error
[20:50:52] <alex_joni> the PERIOD is the period for the RT stuff to run
[20:50:57] <pfred1> ah so it's sort of like power timing a car then?
[20:51:00] <alex_joni> * alex_joni not going into too much detail
[20:51:09] <pfred1> just keep jacking it up til it pings then back it off some?
[20:51:25] <alex_joni> the real time stuff runs with higher priority on the rest (normal linux stuff)
[20:51:34] <alex_joni> it runs from a timer (set by PERIOD)
[20:51:50] <alex_joni> if PERIOD is too low... then the RT stuff runs all the time
[20:51:54] <pfred1> so a low period is safe but not optimal performance?
[20:51:57] <alex_joni> and the rest of the linux is freezed
[20:52:11] <pfred1> or a high period rather
[20:52:14] <alex_joni> and your PC stops working...
[20:52:21] <alex_joni> a high period gives you safety
[20:52:27] <alex_joni> but slow step pulses
[20:52:36] <pfred1> but at a cost of CNC performance?
[20:52:40] <alex_joni> yup
[20:52:43] <pfred1> ok
[20:52:49] <alex_joni> high period = slow frequency
[20:52:52] <pfred1> thanks that helps somewhat
[20:53:04] <alex_joni> so... you gotta find an optimum
[20:53:07] <pfred1> well that's a whole other can of worms i have to deal with there
[20:53:18] <alex_joni> you can decrease PERIOD till the GUI is somehow slow
[20:53:19] <pfred1> see i built my own stepper drivers
[20:53:26] <pfred1> I've boult a few different kinds
[20:53:30] <alex_joni> buttons get cliked hard... and so on
[20:53:33] <pfred1> and i always have the same problem
[20:53:43] <alex_joni> then you have a maximum of output frequency
[20:53:53] <pfred1> they only reliably reverse at what i consider to be pretty low RPMs
[20:54:01] <pfred1> say like 200 RPM
[20:54:06] <alex_joni> that's because of the steppers
[20:54:10] <pfred1> but once it's going you cna go way faster
[20:54:25] <alex_joni> you cannot reverse a stepper at full speed
[20:54:32] <alex_joni> you need to deaccel
[20:54:32] <alex_joni> reverse
[20:54:32] <pfred1> but if you tried to reverse at that speed
[20:54:36] <alex_joni> and accel away
[20:54:46] <pfred1> OK does the software handle that?
[20:54:49] <alex_joni> and EMC does that
[20:54:53] <pfred1> oh
[20:54:59] <alex_joni> you have a max-accel param inthe ini
[20:55:00] <pfred1> well that explains a whole lot!
[20:55:21] <pfred1> I thought I was going to have to make some sort of hardware ramp up deal or something
[20:55:26] <alex_joni> a stepper is a very fragile thing once outside his normal working area
[20:55:39] <alex_joni> you go too fast... it looses steps
[20:55:44] <pfred1> well the motors i got are rated at 2000 RPM
[20:55:52] <alex_joni> mechanical momento is too big... it looses steps
[20:55:58] <alex_joni> even if you go at 1000 RPM
[20:56:02] <pfred1> and running them I'm like how the hell you get it to go that speed?
[20:56:25] <alex_joni> well... how many degs/stepare they?
[20:56:41] <pfred1> ah they're the 400 steps a rev type?
[20:56:58] <pfred1> they're vextas of some sort I got the model number around someplace
[20:57:12] <alex_joni> 400 steps/rev is pretty common
[20:57:13] <pfred1> 266 I seem to recall
[20:57:21] <pfred1> in the model numbers
[20:57:26] <alex_joni> ok.. 266
[20:57:30] <alex_joni> 266 / rev
[20:57:40] <pfred1> no they're like 400 steps a rev
[20:58:07] <alex_joni> so 400 * 2000 = 800000 (steps/minute)
[20:58:22] <alex_joni> that means 13333 (steps/second)
[20:58:42] <pfred1> probably would mean melted HDPE on the floor too if i ran them like that
[21:00:17] <alex_joni> HDPE?
[21:00:17] <pfred1> what I'm using as my drive nuts
[21:00:17] <pfred1> High Density PolyEthelyne
[21:00:17] <alex_joni> I see...
[21:00:17] <pfred1> or however it's spelt
[21:00:18] <alex_joni> well.. depends on your OUTPUT_ratio
[21:00:18] <alex_joni> how many inches do you travel / pulse...
[21:00:18] <alex_joni> that depends on gearings & such
[21:00:34] <alex_joni> you take the max speed you need to drive...
[21:00:38] <alex_joni> and calc. from there
[21:00:39] <pfred1> I think I'm just going to direct couple at the outset simplest
[21:00:52] <pfred1> stuff's complicated enough!
[21:01:00] <alex_joni> ;)
[21:01:11] <alex_joni> you can do that if your motors have enough torque
[21:01:23] <pfred1> althought i kinda figured out my max travel at the steps i have been able to achieve
[21:01:30] <pfred1> and it's not exactly blinding speed
[21:01:53] <pfred1> something like 6 ipm I think it was
[21:02:58] <alex_joni> 6 inches / min ?
[21:03:05] <pfred1> yes
[21:03:18] <alex_joni> well..
[21:03:34] <alex_joni> you did the math.. can't say you're wrong without knowing driving ratios
[21:05:23] <alex_joni> that 6inches / min is at 2000 RPM?
[21:05:29] <pfred1> no
[21:05:39] <pfred1> at the pulse rate I have been able to achieve to date
[21:05:44] <pfred1> which is pretty low
[21:05:49] <alex_joni> and that's ... how much?
[21:07:02] <pfred1> actually that's an issue of some question too because when i measured it I came up with 2 different answers
[21:07:34] <alex_joni> hmmm... how do you generate the output?
[21:07:45] <pfred1> somewhere between 1.38 and 3.8 ms
[21:08:01] <pfred1> oh to just run the motor i used a 555 timer
[21:08:06] <pfred1> to make the pulses
[21:08:26] <pfred1> my drivers have step and dir inputs
[21:08:39] <pfred1> so i just fed the 555 pulses to step and had a switch on dir
[21:08:59] <pfred1> and i tried different waveshapes
[21:10:27] <pfred1> before i hook anything up to a PC i have to make a whole buffer board
[21:10:41] <pfred1> one thing I'll say for steppers they're noisy!
[21:11:00] <pfred1> they put out an inductive backlash so bad you can dance to it
[21:11:21] <pfred1> I mean i thought a big part of my problem was noise
[21:13:14] <alex_joni> noisy .. how?
[21:13:22] <alex_joni> you mean ... audio?
[21:13:26] <alex_joni> or signals?
[21:13:52] <pfred1> yes signals
[21:14:08] <pfred1> stepper motors make a lot of signal noise
[21:14:10] <alex_joni> hmmm.. that should be killed by the drive
[21:14:18] <pfred1> really?
[21:14:18] <alex_joni> any optocoupling on the drives?
[21:14:24] <pfred1> nope
[21:14:27] <pfred1> not yet
[21:14:29] <alex_joni> that's bad...
[21:14:36] <pfred1> I will optocouple my buffer
[21:14:47] <pfred1> but the drive itself really can't be
[21:14:53] <pfred1> unless you can run a stepper on light :)
[21:14:58] <alex_joni> you always have to sepparate the logic stuff from the motor stuff
[21:15:14] <alex_joni> I always have a optocoupler at the entrance of the drive
[21:15:30] <alex_joni> LED with opto-transister
[21:15:36] <pfred1> well my drive is homemade and it's a bit of a strange one
[21:15:49] <pfred1> I had to make the logic to generate the stepping pulses
[21:16:10] <pfred1> often times that logic is internal to a driver chip
[21:16:27] <pfred1> but the chip i went with they wanted it to be more versitle
[21:16:33] <pfred1> so they didn't include it
[21:16:34] <alex_joni> well.. I did that too (myself)
[21:16:57] <alex_joni> care for a schematic ?
[21:17:07] <pfred1> to make a long story short much of the trouble i had was ultimately related to a faulty power supply which I learned about later
[21:17:19] <pfred1> using it in another project
[21:17:42] <pfred1> the transformer in it is bad in a very strange manner
[21:18:31] <pfred1> but now that I have that figured out i can move on
[21:19:06] <alex_joni> thing is...
[21:19:18] <alex_joni> you have a power supply for the drives.. right?
[21:19:39] <alex_joni> and a power supply for the PC... (or whatever send signals to the drives)
[21:19:47] <alex_joni> and those need to be sepparated...
[21:19:50] <pfred1> well when I was prototyping the circuit I knew I'd need a dedicated supply
[21:20:09] <alex_joni> what voltage do the motors require?
[21:20:18] <pfred1> that has been somewhat of a sticking point too
[21:20:29] <pfred1> I am running them chopped so their ratings don't really matter
[21:20:36] <pfred1> it's more of an ampacity issue now
[21:20:50] <pfred1> and they can handle 2 amps
[21:20:56] <pfred1> so far I've fed them one
[21:21:19] <pfred1> when you chop voltage doesn't matter
[21:21:31] <pfred1> well til you hit insulative breakdown
[21:21:39] <pfred1> but I'm not going there!
[21:22:04] <pfred1> I'd imagine these motors wouldn't breakdown before say 600V ?
[21:22:15] <pfred1> and i only plan on using 24V
[21:23:39] <alex_joni> don't know bout that... got to see how warm they get
[21:23:42] <alex_joni> when in load...
[21:24:34] <pfred1> yeah your machine will need some large motors
[21:24:51] <pfred1> me I was a little more conservative in my first attempt
[21:25:03] <alex_joni> I actually run on DC motors
[21:25:05] <alex_joni> 150 W
[21:25:10] <alex_joni> should be enough...
[21:25:13] <pfred1> servos?
[21:25:17] <alex_joni> geckos
[21:25:22] <alex_joni> DC-geckos
[21:26:23] <pfred1> here a gecko is an insurance company
[21:26:42] <alex_joni> lol
[21:27:04] <alex_joni> http://www.geckodrive.com/products.htbml
[21:27:16] <alex_joni> I have G340's
[21:27:24] <pfred1> so you have regular DC motors?
[21:27:48] <pfred1> with no servo mechinism on them?
[21:28:31] <alex_joni> well.. the G340 is a servo
[21:28:37] <alex_joni> you drive it like a stepper
[21:28:50] <alex_joni> and it drives the DC motor with an encoder hooked up to it
[21:28:58] <pfred1> ok so it is a servo then?
[21:29:23] <pfred1> it's not a gecko it's a servo
[21:29:45] <alex_joni> it's a gecko-servo
[21:29:47] <alex_joni> :D
[21:29:54] <pfred1> but a servo with an interface
[21:30:49] <pfred1> yeah if i get this first stepper machine going next I may try a servo design
[21:30:51] <alex_joni> yup..
[21:30:58] <pfred1> being as I've run into all of these speed issues
[21:31:05] <alex_joni> it's designed so you can easily switch from a Stepper
[21:31:09] <alex_joni> to a DC-motor
[21:31:12] <pfred1> but then again steppers do hold a lot better than a servo ever can
[21:31:25] <pfred1> unless you just like to see parts smoke
[21:32:11] <pfred1> how are servos at lower speeds?
[21:32:20] <pfred1> I'd imagine they must be pretty horrible
[21:32:35] <pfred1> DC motors don't like to run too slow
[21:32:39] <alex_joni> not really..
[21:32:44] <alex_joni> they do sing a lot ;)
[21:32:50] <alex_joni> because of the PWM
[21:33:03] <pfred1> well they're designed to mask their limitations I'd imagine beefed up to dissipate the heat
[21:33:13] <pfred1> ah i call that voice coiling
[21:33:24] <pfred1> steppers do that if you try to overdrive them right off the bat
[21:33:44] <pfred1> the whole you're beyond your starting speed deal
[21:34:08] <alex_joni> well...
[21:35:33] <alex_joni> anyways...
[21:35:46] <alex_joni> I liked the way the geckos are behaving
[21:36:03] <alex_joni> I'm setting up a wire-feeder for TIG welding ..
[21:36:11] <alex_joni> with a gecko and a 555 ;)
[21:36:29] <pfred1> hmm wouldn't that be MIG then?
[21:36:45] <alex_joni> nope
[21:36:52] <alex_joni> it's TIG with coldwire
[21:36:56] <alex_joni> for mechanized welding
[21:37:05] <pfred1> yeah welding isn't so hard
[21:37:16] <pfred1> to do manually i mean
[21:37:19] <alex_joni> I know ;)
[21:37:32] <alex_joni> * alex_joni prefers letting his robots do the work...
[21:37:43] <pfred1> for me welding is fun
[21:38:27] <alex_joni> MIG?
[21:38:37] <pfred1> I prefer TIG
[21:38:42] <alex_joni> TIG is slow...
[21:38:48] <pfred1> tho it depends on the job
[21:38:50] <alex_joni> but nicer.. more stable
[21:38:57] <alex_joni> and .. more quiet
[21:39:00] <pfred1> I have both
[21:39:00] <alex_joni> no noise ;)
[21:39:17] <alex_joni> I sell equipment :P
[21:39:22] <alex_joni> for welding...
[21:39:28] <pfred1> well I've bought plenty of equipment
[21:40:14] <pfred1> I probably been welding for longer than you've been alive
[21:40:35] <pfred1> like 24 years now :)
[21:40:53] <alex_joni> well.. bullseye ;)
[21:41:58] <pfred1> yup I hit the big 4 0 next week and i started welding when i was like 17
[21:42:55] <alex_joni> nice...
[21:43:05] <pfred1> I seen pretty cool pipe welders
[21:43:26] <pfred1> that'd be about the only welding machne that looks very hand to me pipes can be a pain
[21:43:51] <pfred1> when i make exhaust systems for friends i make them rotate it for me :)
[21:44:14] <pfred1> turn it turn it!
[21:44:28] <pfred1> hmm that reminds me
[21:44:54] <pfred1> my buddy kurt lactomangulated his head pipe recently and i offered to weld a new part onto it for him i gotta call him later
[21:45:24] <pfred1> they want $100 for that pipe!
[21:45:32] <pfred1> me I'll charge him a beer
[21:46:02] <alex_joni> ;)
[21:46:03] <alex_joni> nice...
[21:46:19] <pfred1> long as he's rotating it I just gotta sit there
[21:46:42] <pfred1> one thing i like with welding is them LCD hoods
[21:46:48] <pfred1> makes it like it's a video game then
[21:47:06] <pfred1> I got an Optrel
[21:47:19] <pfred1> when i bought it this other guy i know said i was nuts til he tried it
[21:47:32] <pfred1> he's the one that came up with the video game line afterwards
[21:47:45] <pfred1> this isn't welding this is like playing a video game!
[21:48:15] <pfred1> $400 hood
[21:48:32] <pfred1> worth every last penny!
[21:48:52] <alex_joni> I don't really like LCD ones...
[21:49:02] <pfred1> no?
[21:49:09] <alex_joni> not really...
[21:49:13] <pfred1> how come?
[21:49:20] <alex_joni> I am sometimes welding Tandem
[21:49:24] <alex_joni> 2 x 400 Amps
[21:49:34] <pfred1> why?
[21:49:38] <alex_joni> with a robot (not manually...)
[21:49:43] <alex_joni> for productivity...
[21:49:57] <alex_joni> and I have the teach pendant in my hand.. to adjust params
[21:50:08] <alex_joni> and the LCD in the other hand...
[21:50:26] <alex_joni> because if it's on my head.. I can't see anything else (like params & such)
[21:50:38] <alex_joni> and the problem with LCD is... when you tilt it...
[21:51:08] <alex_joni> I mean... if the LCD is not 100% vertical... it will let more light through...
[21:51:14] <alex_joni> and that really sux...
[21:51:14] <pfred1> you should invent the heads up hood
[21:51:29] <pfred1> yeah i always look at my beads straight on no need to look at anything else
[21:51:40] <alex_joni> yup... lucky you ;)
[21:51:47] <alex_joni> I always have some tests to weld...
[21:51:52] <alex_joni> customer comes with his part
[21:52:01] <alex_joni> I gotta decide what parameters to weld...
[21:52:08] <alex_joni> and with Tandem it's even harder
[21:52:18] <alex_joni> are you familiar with Tandem =
[21:52:18] <alex_joni> ?
[21:52:34] <pfred1> nope i just weld
[21:52:46] <alex_joni> Tandem is twin MIG
[21:52:48] <pfred1> you know grab the stinger and go sort of a guy
[21:52:52] <alex_joni> 2 power sources
[21:52:57] <alex_joni> 2 drive units
[21:53:00] <alex_joni> 2 wires
[21:53:03] <alex_joni> 1 torch
[21:53:10] <pfred1> why not just use a bigger wire?
[21:53:19] <alex_joni> it's better than a bigger wire
[21:53:26] <pfred1> OK
[21:53:36] <alex_joni> you can even mix welding types
[21:53:39] <alex_joni> or wire types
[21:53:45] <alex_joni> do alloy with the second wire...
[21:53:48] <alex_joni> etc.
[21:53:58] <pfred1> I just have a small MIG unit i use on small gauge materials if i want to weld something big i use a stick
[21:55:12] <alex_joni> I don't like stick ;)
[21:55:23] <pfred1> what's not to like about it?
[21:55:27] <alex_joni> it's too messy... gotta clean the weld after that
[21:55:55] <pfred1> ah you don't like grinding your root?
[21:56:17] <alex_joni> can't do this with stick : http://www.sudura.ro/pub/a14.jpg
[21:56:28] <pfred1> I'm sure there's plenty one can't do
[21:56:51] <pfred1> but I've seen welders that can!
[21:57:06] <alex_joni> depends on how fast too...
[21:57:16] <pfred1> I seen guys run hot downhill
[21:57:18] <alex_joni> with MIG you get a LOT higher deposition rates
[21:57:22] <pfred1> beautiful work!
[21:58:02] <alex_joni> what is?
[21:58:16] <pfred1> some of the work I've seen steamfitters do
[21:58:21] <pfred1> with sticks
[21:58:41] <alex_joni> I see...
[21:58:42] <pfred1> you not getting no robot down in no ditch to weld together any pipe
[21:58:50] <alex_joni> I agree on that...
[21:58:52] <pfred1> that's a man's work!
[21:59:06] <alex_joni> I am talking about series production...
[21:59:16] <alex_joni> not custom jobs
[21:59:35] <alex_joni> at custom jobs (or small spaces) there is no possibility to replace men ;)
[22:01:21] <pfred1> it's like another thing I like to do woodworking now sure there's plenty of new fangled tools to accomplish woodworking tasks
[22:01:36] <pfred1> but simetimes you're better off reaching for a hammer and a chisel than setting up some machine
[22:01:55] <alex_joni> but not if you gotta do 300k parts / year ;)
[22:02:15] <alex_joni> identical parts that is...
[22:02:18] <pfred1> yeah then you have to do as effeciently as possible that's high production there
[22:02:49] <alex_joni> I installed 9 robots in a factory near my location
[22:02:51] <pfred1> even when i worked in a machine shop there a run of 10K parts was a lot
[22:02:53] <alex_joni> for boogies...
[22:03:18] <alex_joni> and they went up from 6 boogies to 22 / day
[22:03:31] <pfred1> drilling the same hole for a week is pretty boring occupation!
[22:03:40] <alex_joni> yup...
[22:04:03] <pfred1> they were still better off having me do it than a robot though
[22:04:16] <alex_joni> don't know if you want to do it 24/7
[22:04:34] <pfred1> well will a robot shovel the chips off the floor?
[22:04:41] <pfred1> I know i had to at end of shift
[22:04:52] <alex_joni> there are machines that can do that ;)
[22:05:13] <pfred1> but by the time you're done buying the shoverling robot the can lugging robot the drilling robot I'm cheaper
[22:05:57] <pfred1> face it humans still cheap
[22:06:09] <pfred1> and they're versitle
[22:06:45] <pfred1> that same shop they tried to make a CNC product of their main product
[22:06:51] <pfred1> it never worked out
[22:10:37] <alex_joni> yup... you're right on some setups
[22:10:57] <alex_joni> but there are a lot of fields (and the number is growing), where some automation is very helpfull
[22:11:07] <alex_joni> I'm not an adept to remove men completely...
[22:11:16] <alex_joni> just to take over some stuff...
[22:11:43] <pfred1> I think you may see the day when mechanization is the rule
[22:11:48] <pfred1> I probably won't though
[22:13:06] <pfred1> it'll be a strange world then though because tedious work builds character
[22:13:44] <alex_joni> well... I guess we'll see...
[22:14:10] <alex_joni> but EMC is a good step froward ;)
[22:14:13] <pfred1> no you'll see I'll be dead :)
[22:14:26] <alex_joni> I don't think it's that far away...
[22:14:28] <alex_joni> ;)
[22:14:41] <pfred1> won't happen in my lifetime
[22:16:21] <pfred1> I'm trying to find pic of tool i used to make I think they went out of business finally
[22:16:48] <alex_joni> who did?
[22:16:58] <pfred1> the machine shop i used to work at
[22:17:09] <pfred1> we used to make this gadget called a fluid motion wheel dresser
[22:17:17] <pfred1> that's what they tried to CNC
[22:17:48] <pfred1> Henry Swensen must be long dead by now
[22:17:58] <pfred1> he was like 86 when i worked there
[22:18:18] <pfred1> and that must have been 20 years ago?
[22:18:38] <pfred1> maybe the old bastard is 106 now
[22:18:56] <pfred1> nah he was stubborn but not that stubborn!
[22:19:27] <pfred1> that old guy would come into the shop working on whatever it was that he was working on and he'd be lifting these vises onto milling tables and whatnot
[22:19:40] <pfred1> I'd run over say Henery let me help you!
[22:19:47] <pfred1> I mean he was 86!
[22:20:10] <pfred1> throwing a 200 pound vise up onto a milling table
[22:21:36] <alex_joni> nice...
[22:24:18] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is in search for some way to forward X to M$
[22:24:40] <pfred1> there's commercial products that can do that
[22:24:47] <pfred1> welcome to Microsoft have a nice pay
[22:27:18] <alex_joni> neah...
[22:27:25] <alex_joni> a free version :D
[22:27:33] <alex_joni> I don't like to pay M$ stuff...
[22:27:44] <alex_joni> looking at Cygwin/X
[22:27:47] <alex_joni> and putty...
[22:27:52] <pfred1> alex_joni better than me i don't like to run it period
[22:27:59] <alex_joni> lol
[22:28:16] <alex_joni> I gotta run my machine at work... :(
[22:28:25] <alex_joni> althoug I don't like it...
[22:37:38] <pfred1> alex_joni you computer expert write linux driver for machine
[22:37:56] <alex_joni> don't know about computer expert... ;)
[22:40:36] <alex_joni> wanna see something?
[22:41:11] <alex_joni> hey paul_c: when did you get in?
[22:41:45] <pfred1> : idle : 0 hours 7 mins 48 secs (signon: Sun Nov 7 06:57:21 2004)
[22:42:13] <alex_joni> paul_c has been idle 7mins 27secs, signed on Sun Nov 07 13:57:21
[22:42:59] <pfred1> alex_joni se I told ya he'd be here in about an hour
[22:44:09] <pfred1> -:- DCC Unable to create connection: Connection refused
[22:44:26] <alex_joni> I'll send you a http link... ok?
[22:44:38] <pfred1> alex_joni me i just put pics up on my webserver
[22:50:04] <alex_joni> http://193.226.12.129/emcstuff/dektop.jpg
[22:50:11] <alex_joni> pfred1: what addy?
[22:51:01] <pfred1> alex_joni woo neato
[22:51:30] <alex_joni> now it's even neater
[22:51:33] <alex_joni> I'm running emc2
[22:51:40] <alex_joni> chipping Chips ;)
[22:51:50] <alex_joni> with backplot...
[22:51:55] <alex_joni> I really love this stuff...
[22:52:25] <pfred1> paul_c told me that there's a new emc coming out so I'm waiting on it
[22:53:14] <pfred1> well a newer BDI at anyrate
[22:57:25] <pfred1> alex_joni3 PC crash?
[22:59:16] <alex_joni3> yup...
[22:59:17] <alex_joni3> ;)
[22:59:21] <alex_joni3> M$ rulez :)))))
[22:59:28] <pfred1> not me
[22:59:34] <alex_joni3> I just plugged an extra monitor in.. and it rebooted ;)
[22:59:53] <pfred1> well monitors aren't hotplug devices
[23:00:03] <alex_joni3> no?
[23:00:08] <alex_joni3> thought they were ;)
[23:01:00] <pfred1> time to wake up here
[23:01:18] <pfred1> * pfred1 plays Iggy_Pop_Stooges-No_Fun.mp3
[23:07:59] <alex_joni3> paul_c: hello...
[23:10:43] <alex_joni3> hello FloH
[23:11:17] <FloH> Hello alex_joni3
[23:11:36] <alex_joni3> pfred1: just updated the pic
[23:11:42] <alex_joni3> alex_joni3 is now known as alex_joni
[23:12:03] <alex_joni> Floh sounds german ;)
[23:12:46] <FloH> Yes I'm from Germany
[23:12:58] <alex_joni> http://193.226.12.129/emcstuff/dekstop-extended.jpg
[23:13:21] <alex_joni> well... I'm from Rum´┐Żnien ;)
[23:14:11] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is running emc2 on a second monitor on his M$ box...
[23:15:48] <alex_joni> FloH: any experiences with emc?
[23:17:47] <pfred1> alex_joni I'm playing my guitar a bit here
[23:19:56] <alex_joni> hey les
[23:20:06] <FloH> I've a litte milling machine with servos and I have bought servo amlifierers and a Siemens-ISA-Bord. When I get it I will do son experiences with EMC2 and the Driver from Martin Kuhle
[23:20:22] <alex_joni> nice...
[23:20:42] <alex_joni> where did you get the ISA-Board from?
[23:20:51] <pfred1> amplifiers now that's something I am in with
[23:21:00] <pfred1> * pfred1 is running 2 of his amps he's built right now :)
[23:21:59] <FloH> I will get it from the man who gougt the rest of the cards from eBay
[23:22:55] <alex_joni> I see... ;)
[23:23:33] <alex_joni> my Chips is done...
[23:23:34] <alex_joni> ;)
[23:24:24] <pfred1> me I make my own amplifiers
[23:24:34] <pfred1> that way if they blow up I cna just laugh
[23:25:12] <pfred1> does anyone here make any of their own electronics?
[23:25:24] <alex_joni> pfred1: I do... sometimes ;)
[23:25:35] <FloH> Yes, i too
[23:25:38] <pfred1> alex_joni yeah what you make?
[23:25:43] <pfred1> etch boards?
[23:25:54] <alex_joni> depends
[23:26:03] <alex_joni> sometimes I do that
[23:26:18] <alex_joni> or only the design and bring that to a local board-manufacturer
[23:26:21] <alex_joni> for the PCB
[23:26:28] <alex_joni> mostly when 2-sides ;)
[23:26:30] <pfred1> sometimes i make simple stuff and I'm like oh it's not worth etching a oard then halfway through it's always the same thing why didn't i etch a board for this?
[23:26:46] <pfred1> yeah let me see these boardhouse boards
[23:27:03] <alex_joni> you mean pics?
[23:27:06] <alex_joni> or layouts?
[23:27:12] <pfred1> either or
[23:27:20] <alex_joni> I could send you a layout...
[23:27:23] <alex_joni> Orcad ?
[23:27:36] <pfred1> here's the layout for my next amp http://68.84.51.85:10000/Electronics/Projects/next/60_Watts/60-pre-cap.jpg
[23:27:40] <pfred1> how about jpg?
[23:27:44] <pfred1> everyone can deal with that
[23:27:52] <alex_joni> till then... http://193.226.12.129/emcstuff/chips-done.jpg
[23:28:27] <pfred1> that board preamp when i build that amp it'll blow down walls!
[23:29:40] <pfred1> here's the power section http://68.84.51.85:10000/Electronics/Projects/next/60_Watts/60-power-src.jpg
[23:30:17] <pfred1> BTW Linux has nice board routing software with free demo the stuf i using in those screeners
[23:31:24] <pfred1> someplace i got my stepper drivers I made i never etched board for them yet all that other trouble i ran into with the prototypes
[23:31:41] <pfred1> I don't like to commit until I'm sure it works and well I wasn't so sure
[23:31:47] <alex_joni> http://193.226.12.129/emcstuff/ioboard.jpg
[23:32:01] <alex_joni> some sample IO-board I made
[23:32:16] <alex_joni> it's 16 I/ 16 O optocoupled, connected to a PC104
[23:32:22] <pfred1> alex_joni SMT ?
[23:32:32] <alex_joni> some
[23:32:44] <pfred1> yeah i don't like that stuff had to do it for a living once
[23:32:54] <pfred1> it sux for experimental stuff
[23:33:11] <pfred1> OK if you got million dollar infard setup
[23:33:39] <pfred1> but for knock off homebrew boards ther's no reason to use SMT for me
[23:34:31] <alex_joni> I usually use test-boards
[23:34:33] <alex_joni> for testing
[23:34:53] <alex_joni> and when it's ok... I switch to SMT ;)
[23:35:28] <pfred1> I don't have the gear to deal with the stuff
[23:35:46] <pfred1> I see no advantages to it
[23:35:54] <pfred1> and plenty of detractors
[23:36:08] <alex_joni> well... it's more robust than test-boards
[23:36:15] <alex_joni> and wires ...
[23:36:24] <pfred1> it's no more robust than through hole components
[23:36:30] <alex_joni> don't always use SMT
[23:36:37] <pfred1> or well soldered wires for that matter
[23:36:40] <alex_joni> on that board half is through hole...
[23:36:54] <pfred1> but why use SMT at all?
[23:37:11] <pfred1> you know why big companies use it don't you?
[23:37:11] <alex_joni> it's small...
[23:37:16] <pfred1> no that's not why
[23:37:20] <alex_joni> I use it when I need the space
[23:37:25] <pfred1> it's easier for them to robo build
[23:37:30] <alex_joni> I know...
[23:37:33] <pfred1> man when are yo uever so pressed for space?
[23:37:40] <pfred1> you sending this crap into space?
[23:37:48] <alex_joni> when I want to make a PC104 board
[23:38:04] <pfred1> well there you got me i have no idea what a PC104 is
[23:38:09] <alex_joni> industrial ISA
[23:38:29] <pfred1> and i got this far in life not knowing so I'd rather not :)
[23:38:32] <alex_joni> it's got standards for board-size, connectors, etc...
[23:38:36] <alex_joni> lol
[23:38:56] <alex_joni> well... I also prefer sticking to through-hole
[23:38:56] <pfred1> ah it's some standard you're limiting yourself to
[23:39:04] <pfred1> well well
[23:39:21] <alex_joni> sometimes...I can't find packages for components other than SMT...
[23:39:24] <pfred1> me i limit myself to 3x5 boards because that's all my demo software will do
[23:39:28] <pfred1> yup i know that's a trend
[23:39:32] <alex_joni> like: RTL8039...
[23:39:43] <pfred1> that an ethernet chip?
[23:39:46] <alex_joni> yup
[23:39:53] <pfred1> yeah I buy ethernet boards
[23:40:02] <alex_joni> I used it on a project with an ATMega128 microcontroller
[23:40:06] <pfred1> or pull them out of dumps special machines
[23:40:22] <alex_joni> the ATMega too comes only SMT
[23:40:38] <pfred1> well they're trying to tell you something there then
[23:40:49] <pfred1> they're trying to tell yo uthat they don't want you using their parts
[23:41:10] <pfred1> I guess some chips they have to make SMT
[23:41:30] <pfred1> but it's just too much for me to deal with personally
[23:42:00] <pfred1> the equipment you need to really use that stuff is not realistically obtained
[23:42:08] <alex_joni> what equipment?
[23:42:10] <pfred1> I am not Intel
[23:42:20] <alex_joni> I'm not either ;)
[23:42:23] <pfred1> the probes the soldering machines desoldering machines
[23:42:31] <alex_joni> I use a normal solder ;)
[23:42:43] <pfred1> yeah how you take chip up?
[23:43:11] <alex_joni> up?
[23:43:17] <pfred1> sure remove it from board
[23:43:23] <pfred1> say by chance you got a bad one
[23:43:30] <pfred1> or it got hit by lightning
[23:43:48] <alex_joni> I see... with a 400 degs hot-air ... (don't know how it's called)
[23:43:48] <pfred1> or decided you wanted to use another one in it's place higher specs
[23:43:59] <pfred1> hot air gun?
[23:44:01] <alex_joni> yup
[23:44:10] <pfred1> yeah that pulls them off?
[23:44:13] <alex_joni> 20$ hot air gun
[23:44:20] <alex_joni> yes...
[23:44:27] <alex_joni> gotta be carefull thou...
[23:44:33] <pfred1> I'll bet
[23:44:46] <pfred1> see I'm just not that careful a guy
[23:44:47] <alex_joni> it usually is pretty problematic if you have more chips around the one you want to remove
[23:44:52] <alex_joni> but it's doable
[23:44:59] <pfred1> me I'd burn my house down or something trying to pull that stunt off
[23:45:41] <alex_joni> lol...
[23:45:49] <alex_joni> it gets easier in time ;)
[23:45:58] <alex_joni> the RTL's I take off from older eth-cards
[23:45:59] <pfred1> wouldn't be a laughing matter me out in the street clothes on my back
[23:46:22] <alex_joni> don't want to spend 10$ on the chip, when I get a full eth-card with 1$
[23:46:23] <pfred1> well you're you said what 24?
[23:46:39] <alex_joni> because it's 10 MBit... way old ;)
[23:46:53] <alex_joni> 24
[23:47:03] <pfred1> when i was 24 that stuff wasn't nearly as small as it is today
[23:47:11] <pfred1> let me tell you though
[23:47:24] <pfred1> as time goes by I am seeing the utility of optics!
[23:47:35] <alex_joni> yup.. me too...
[23:47:40] <pfred1> lets just say that for close work i do it under a magnifying glass today
[23:47:50] <pfred1> when years ago I didn't!
[23:47:54] <alex_joni> having sometimes trouble myself without magnifying glasses ;)
[23:48:04] <alex_joni> for some work...
[23:48:16] <pfred1> well ah i hate to break it to ya but we're not exactly fine wine that gets better with age
[23:48:23] <alex_joni> lol
[23:48:27] <alex_joni> I know ;)
[23:48:34] <pfred1> quite the opposite in fact!
[23:48:42] <alex_joni> well... depends on the point of view
[23:48:48] <alex_joni> there are things that get better
[23:49:16] <pfred1> no I'm pretty scared a friend of mine just went blind
[23:49:34] <alex_joni> oh.. sorry to hear that...
[23:49:58] <pfred1> well his eyes were always bad
[23:50:06] <pfred1> but now I think all he sees are like shadows
[23:50:08] <les> hello...was just running the stepper test system with MIRC in the background
[23:50:37] <pfred1> but that's an extreme case
[23:50:47] <pfred1> me that small stuff is just getting smaller everyday
[23:50:47] <les> Talking about surface mount?
[23:51:03] <pfred1> yeah i used to assemble PCBs and we'd have to use SMT
[23:51:09] <les> I use a soldering iron under a microscope
[23:51:14] <pfred1> so I've like sworn it off for life at this point
[23:51:17] <les> there must be a better way
[23:51:30] <pfred1> yeah my way just say no to SMT
[23:51:53] <les> haha but I have to build up stuff a lot it seems
[23:52:02] <pfred1> I been messing with electronics since i was like 8 years old
[23:52:16] <les> me too I guess
[23:52:21] <pfred1> I love it and I ain't gonna let the industry ruin it for me!
[23:52:26] <les> haw
[23:53:04] <alex_joni> well...
[23:53:04] <les> I am gettin to old to hand place 603 resistors
[23:53:17] <pfred1> when i strip components i throw all the SMT stuff out
[23:54:56] <pfred1> alex_joni it's a pretty board you have here but know what? I'd hate to have to make it!
[23:55:07] <alex_joni> lol...
[23:55:50] <pfred1> http://68.84.51.85:10000/Electronics/Projects/Overdrive/MakeOverdrive/stuffboard5.jpg
[23:55:57] <pfred1> that's about as tight as i like to make it
[23:56:58] <les> I am now working on a GUI...customer says it looks "too military"
[23:57:52] <les> i'll make it purple...
[23:57:57] <les> haw
[23:58:20] <pfred1> les how'd you know what color crayon i filled out my draft card with?
[23:58:34] <les> haha
[23:58:39] <alex_joni> I'd love to see a purple GUI :)
[23:58:45] <pfred1> funniest thing is it's true!
[23:58:58] <pfred1> when I did that i was like no way i want to be drafted
[23:59:15] <pfred1> not that i wouldn't serve mind you but hey to be told to?
[23:59:22] <les> wish I could show you a screen shot...need to set up the blog I have
[23:59:24] <pfred1> that's different!
[23:59:43] <pfred1> thank god i don't have to worry about that now
[23:59:49] <les> yup
[23:59:55] <pfred1> you know they going to reinstate it now