les yeah bessimer's bio is fascinating reading dig it up someday
how he initially made his fortune is a lesson in sheer genius
man once he developed this one process he was set for life!
he wiped out an entire industry
then how he struggled to get his steel accepted
I have old books about steel...it was kind of magical production before Bessimer
shows the true depth of human stupidity
yeah they used a process called puddling
where guys would bust their asses for like 20 pounds of low grade steel
somehow standing over a molten pool of iron you could swish a ladle around just so and somehow manage to aquire a charge of steel
don't ask me i just read about it sounds stupid to me too
but before bessimer that's how we made steel
I think early (2000 + years) steel came about from decarburization from hand forging
in any event it was very labor intensive and you made small quantities
bessimer did 5 ton pours right off the bat!
actually his method didn't work for small quantities
before him there was no way you'd get 5 tons of steel
yup I guess if one got iron hot enough and thin enough it would finally reach eutectoid
heck his first pour he probably doubled the steel tonnage on Earth
sure changed things
well you'd be suprised
it took 20 years after that to really change things
people still liked pig iron over his steel
yeah his bio is on the net someplace it's very detailed
know what else he did?
I guess casting steel was a bit different
he developed the modern process for extracting sugar from cane
he entered a contest
to develop machinery to press the cane
and he had the cane imported to england so he could experiment with it
went up agianst all these big guys been in the industry for generations
and totally blew them al laway
their processes could extract at most maybe 20% of the sugar bessimer got like 80% extraction
and they'd been doing it for hundreds of years!
I will read that...as an inventor type I will find it inspiring i'll bet
man bessimer no one knows what we owe him today
without sugar and steel that's modern society right there
calories and material
it's what makes us what we are today
I tell you little how he made his initial fortune
which is a big part of the story
one day his sister tells him to go out and buy her this stuff
so he goes out and buys a little bottle of this stuff
and says damn this stuff is expensive!
so he develops a process to make it cheaply
we use golf leaf for some of the signs
true genius doens't overlook the obvious
yeah well it used to be lots more expensive
I think bessimer also invented compressed pencil lead like we use today
do you know how they used to make pencil lead?
? graphite and clay?
they used to cut it with a jeweler's saw from carbon
the stuff was more protected than gold shipments
highly skilled work
yeah bessimer caught wind of it and destroyed another industry
he was liek this is tom follery!
I used a lot of carbon for a coating in an invention
another car part
tons and tons
200 squre meters/gram powder
hmm i wonder if this is the bio I read?
[00:15:55] <pfred1> http://www.history.rochester.edu/ehp-book/shb/
looks like it...bookmarked
yeah i am skimming it seeing if it is I think it is
he was into casting when he was a kid
did stuff like cast iron roses
where you could see the veins in the pedals
that'd be sharp huh? an iron rose?
I just bought a pelica 1851 navy pistol...it is modern steel but I wonder what the originals were made of
someone was pounding away at an anvil
they used to lay up gun barrels out of rods
I know they were forged
but also milled and turned
when yo uread henery's bio you'll be amazed at how he is constantly getting turned away by war departments when he's using his cast steel guns in trials for him
I have a rifle made in 1841 and it has milling machine marks on it
people are resistant to change!
gordon moore went through it with the development of the IC
no one wanted anything to do with the things!
no your chip is not going to go into our shiny new jet fighter we're going to use this clunky old soldered together board of transistors!
It took 6 years for my best car part invention to sell
I guess it stems from the too good to be true axiom
no one wanted it
I've seen it happen to me stuff that was way better than I'd have given it credit for being before I'd experienced it
we all have preconceptions that are hard to break down
heck most of us pride ourselves in "not caving in"
getting a bit of that trying to sell Linux for factory automation
Linux is a perfect example!
it's free how damned good can it possibly be?
this other stuff costs us buku bucks it's gotta rule!
I have a good chance getting it in there because I developed the product to be manufactured
but I've seen this stuff run non stop for over 3 years
nah it sucks!
les I couldn't have thought up a better example than Linux
I depend on Linux/emc for a living
it took bessimer a long time it'll happen for Linux someday too
I remember years ago there was this little joke called "World Domination"
just something that was bandied about in the Linux community
then it turned around to you know this could happen?
then there was the 5 year plan where it looked like Linux would dominate in about 5 years
but that came and went
but you know what? Linux is still here still going on and someday it's day will come!
open sourfe is just so much better a model than closed source it has to eventually win out
That is the concept I have to sell
there is no long term for closed source here today gone and forgotten tomorrow nothing you can do about it either
when Microsoft says a product has reached it's "end of life" I eman what you going to do bribe Bill Gates?
I have to pull these guys away from proprietary RT operating systems
I was just going to say QNX
and get them on RTAI
thing is with QNX I mean what's a developer's license cost for the stuff?
then you gotta sleep in the cone of silence
a lot for most of them
I want open source
in case you mumble in your sleep
yeah it's a headache
well...better hit the shop...have a quick carving job to work in between writing code
I've seen jokers on IRC come up with kernel patches that work!
yeah the turkeys are calling ya good chatting
good talking to you Paul
yeah I'm back to my CNC so I may be around
how are u doing
just read your email
Whatho, me old fruit
Have you had any luck with picax yet ?
well, i can generate the isos
that is a big step these days:)
but not from sarge ?
i will test them when I get home from work
why the big fuss about using sarge? the components are more current
at least in most cases
Some of the components appear to built from sid
until the other day I had no clue we didn't have to use sarge
some packages are being brought in from sid
and I'd rather just add a list of package names to the comps without worring about building a component
if i can get a good working set of iso's i am going to update my howto significan't
well, i think in the long run it will be nice to be able to interchange components..
Also a little concerned about duplicating packages in components...
the warnings messages gen'd by picax?
one of the things we have to decide is the "boundaries" of components, and depenedancys...how to handle
bmurphy where is your howto at?
well.... If I have a componet that uses foo.deb, and it is also included in another component...
some components depending on others..that sort of thing
yes - Kinda gets messy in places.
that is still being chewed over by minds much smarter than mine
this is early evolution of components
and I must admit, some of the packages in a few of the components, I would leave out...
You really needs sound on a computer
well, once sarge settles down and goes to stable, i figure I will pull in a baseline set of components and customize them to my hearts content
u having a issue with sound on your install?
pfred1: 'spose you want games too !
paul_c no I don't play games in my shop like to listen to music once in a while though
I don't bother about sound support
but first..before I start customizing i need a setup that works
and I only have a couple of weeks to get the first build done.
is this for work?
For a client in SoCal.
geez..i need some of those :)
what are they looking for?
I've been messing around with custom distros for several years as a hobby
i have been working on this since February of this year
not even close to good at it, but getting there
darn - I'd got you pegged as a long time expert on picax...;)
i had everything going good until i started playing with the "beta" components and sarge went to hell in a handbasket
that would be dario and jeff/ian
i bluff my way around
but the more i do it the better i bluff :)
well... I found your howto to be easier to follow than the Dummies Guide
well, i am a better documenter than coder
i think my best contribs will be in that area
all though i did submit one tiny little patch..grub changed and moved some dumb directory..
i need to get the guide updated some
Following the thread of the link you sent over, I see you've already figured out comp2repo
get a good decent build again, and then start working with the new cl-tools commands ..the comp-get or whatever
i can make it work, but not sure I understand what it is for
because when i used it to pull everything in from sarge to the component repo..i still got just as many multiple version errors
Added a comp for KDE, and comp2repo pulled in all the packages
it was weird
i think it would work better for that than what i was trying to do
dunno why it needs to pull the sources in too...
bmurphy so you package EMC for Debian?
umm..i don't even know what EMC is at this point :)
so what have i stumbled into paul?
pfred1: bmurphy is an expert on anaconda and building distros
pfred..paul is being way to gracious
i play with it in my copious free time
bmurphy yeah from what i gather it's the group of packages that makes the whole CNC thing go
EMC is a software package for controlling CNC machine tools
running under a realtime linux kernel
ah BDI is RT?
RTAI or RTLinux (for the older one)
i see..i looked at site
now what u are doing makes more sense
so u want to pack a distro for your EMC package
bmurphy no it doesn't
so u want a very small setup
The first BDI CD was based on RH6.2
Don't need much of what comes with a general purpose distr
but I do need to add some specific tools
so make a seperate emc component
mainly CAD/CAM and of course EMC
and just use the minimal core package
bmurphy does make more sense to make a package to me
then just slap it onto existing distro
well, ok, but if the existing distro has a large footprint that isn't good
got to debianize EMC real soon...
paul_c gave gentoo any thought?
where's that wet kipper...
Using KDE as the default WM doesn't make for a small install.
paul..when is the last time u built a comps.xml from the skel file?
paul_c that's the answer I'd have had to have given
Been trying to get the first CD to build & boot.
well, lets lick that this weekend, then u can yank apart the comps file...that part will be fairly easy
bmurphy when I'm walking down the street someday I'm going to randomly ask someone, "when is the last time u built a comps.xml from the skel file?"
Figured once I had a working baseline, I could start hacking
i customized my previous setup
and u really will have a small setup since u want minimal packages
when u booted your last cd..did u do a custom install paul?
Yes - Got to work out how to give the usr a choice of window managers...
if so, did u then see a group called "minimal"? because that is something new
Icewm is nice & light.
here's a cute distro http://peeweelinux.com/
a minimal component (for me) would include much of lsb-2.0
not all of lsb?
and a few bits from lsb-devel & cl-devel.
what about icewm that u are talking about?
I been running WindowMaker since ver .14 so I'm a little partial towards it myself
let's see.... lsb-2.0 contains cdrecord + several dev. tools.
paul_c you want to see minimal distro that'll blow you away run Tom's RTBT disk
[01:36:15] <paul_c> http://www.icewm.org/
paul_c you ever run Tom's RTBT?
pfred1: or try damnedsmalllinux
well here is what i would suggest paul...get a working build
hmm I'll have to give that one a go
is it one floppy?
then take the comps.xml and remove all groups you know you don't want..like audio
and graphics, kerberos, etc
bmurphy not audio!
then trim down lsb
You don't need sound in a workshop !
and make a group for your stuff
i am saying pull it out
paul_c helps me be creative
paul_c fine I'll have another machine down there just to be dedicated sound machine
Will picax warn me if I break any dependencies ?
it works through the packages files which do list dependancies
is picax smart enough to pull in missing packages from (for example) sarge...
it should do that
course right now we don't have sarge :(
but, if we pulled from the mirror --picax uses apt which automatcially handles deps
how long u been using debian paul?
I ran comp2repo on the components, and picax went on to use sarge without any complaints
18 months with Debian.
mumblemumble years with Linux.
hmm here's a distro that looks like a 2 floppy x window system http://www.thepub.nildram.co.uk/mirrors/2diskxwin/2diskXwin.htm
so u just started with empty component directories and had comp2repo pull in everything?
bmurphy I ran debian before they started naming htem after toystory chars
like before the movie came out!
been a while then fred
I used a populated CL mirror then ran comp2repo
that is what i did paul .. but didn't work in my case
and to be brutally honest it hasn't gotten much better over the years :(
some of the stuff is only available from Progeny.
and of course the RT kernel package.
last time I tried debian it had broken packages in it
thats what happens when u have 15,000 packages fred..mistakes get made
paul_c you'd be happy what packages were broken they were the ALSA sound drivers!
If you want stable, try Woody.
it was the stable branch that didn't work
or for bleeding edge, experimental.
had i went with the unstable it might have worked
alsa hasn't worked well in woody from what i understand
i have been using sarge for quite some time.
i haven't had any issues of late with sound
with the odd package from sid..
well none of it inspired a whole lot of confidance with me so I run SuSE now
and i am makeing a desktop version so I WANT sound
that is waht we run here at Ford
SuSE is borderline getting there
well, i don't want to turn this into a distro flame war
bmurphy the simple fact is there's way too many Linux distros most not worth the media they'
paul..if u need any help pruning the comps file just let me know
bmurphy the simple fact is there's way too many Linux distros most not worth the media they're on
i would agree what that fred
Who's for a bit of vi/emacs bashing then ;}
one thing u might run into..i am not sure..but i don't think u can change the screen where it ask what type of install u want.."desktop, server, custom.."
it is hard coded into the setup and not amendable to change
debian install is a python script isn't it?
That can be changed with a bit of python bashing
oh wait it's perl
there was a bit of discusssion about it on the mailing list for anaconda
redhat is python
i have no idea fred
i love my anaconda so its all i work with :)
that's the whole where they got the anaconda from get it snakes?
Debian uses perl for package installation & control
yeah but deb's installer is a perl script
and now we have anaconda that uses debs ;)
i might have a bone to pick with suse, but we use IBM servers here tht run linux..and they make me drool..wish i could take a few home
I donno to me the whole debian project is complete chaos
quad proc boxes
fred, debian has always been the way it is..not going to change
no need to
* paul_c wants to play with big clusters
bmurphy in a few years they'll be so much ballast in the bottom of a dumpster
after 11 years...why should they
I should hit the dumps, ah i mean my computer store today see what's on special over there
Do you know if kickstart works with CL ?
did u read about the new SGI cluster that NASA is getting?
bmurphy my latest project i picked up fro mthere is an HP Kayak XU 6/450 dual pentium II 450
its being worked on but I understand some people have been sucessful in the install
hang on i will get some of the specifics
i think a nfs install worked..
As long as the %post in kickstart works, that will do me.
yeah i use ftp installs myself anymore
network install seems to be way to fly now a days
Not everyone is plugged in to a high speed n/w
paul_c their loss :)
check this out paul - lists.progeny.com/archive/cl-workers/200407/msg00058.html
that was from a couple months ago
even out in the boonies you can get high speed sat connections
it is something i want to investigate paul..i have a project i am working on that will require KS
and of course i want to use paragon
I just need to do some post-install tweaks
like setting kdm up for auto-login
i would love to put together some docs on how to do kS with comp - linux
and locking the background images for KDE
u using kde? i thought u were using ice
damn small isn't very small
KDE for the main distro, and icewm for the lightweight install.
paul_c KDE is nice it is a pig though
be back i n5
When I've tried the %post KS, I'll mail my notes over.
that would be cool
i am moving my domain to another host..and setting it up with plone so it will be a lot easier for me to manage
and that will help with the docs
Paul - Is most of this discussion about trying to make a lightweight install? Do you hope to support embedded style systems with flash for disk?
here's a distro i can believe in http://beernix.berlios.de/
SteveStallings: bmurphy has been working on some Debian based distros, and I picked up on his efforts while researching a BDI-2 replacement
We are both working with anaconda from Progeny
Now... embedded systems can get very tight on space - How much flash storage are you thinking about ?
I seem to remember that 128M Compact Flash that fits the board I sent was reasonably priced.
Plenty of room ;)
with a GUI or ncurses interface ?
paul_c I went through this whole webpage how come i didn't see BDI on it? http://www.linux.org/dist/list.html
It would be neat to have a diskless machine on a local network and a GUI of some sort. Not particular about window manager, nor needing a fancy GUI.
There a loads of custom distro not listed.
TinyX running a tkemc without a WM...
or even xemc
Sounds good to me, TKEMC allows for easy customization.
but tcl/tk libs add a fair bit to the install size.
A custom GUI written with fltk would be much smaller.
paul_c don't be chinzy
Have you looked at fltk ??
paul_c my point being someone may need tcl/tk for other things
But Steve was asking about a minimal install on a flash card.
paul_c yeah does not sound easy
now i heard with flash distros if you try to run all on flash you burn the card out
because flash memory isn't really made to change states very often
Yes, a system running on flash card, hardened for operation in a machine shop. Development can happen on another machine.
There are ways to limit the effects
Mount the card Read-Only
use RAM disks, and NFS mounts
SteveStallings so far to be frank i have to admit just how harsh an envoronment I've had PCs running in
they put up with it!
freaking HDDs aren't as fragine well not all of them at anyrate as one is lead to believe they are
I got a PC here that was crushed by a front eld loader not a bad sector on the drive
What I can get away with for myself and what I am willing to support in the field for a custome is another matter. Plus, the less it looks like a conventional computer, the less likely the customer is to futz with it.
the creases on the case give it character i think :)
it's a true blue IBM BTW for those that want to know
IBM makes a hell of a box!
SteveStallings there's some case styles out there that if yo udon't know the right tricks you just about have to resort to a crowbar to get them open
COmpaq systems come to mind ...
that or warranty void if factory seal is broken tape is always a nice touch
hey paul..did u do the logos on the website?
they are cool
Chips (the Tux lookalike) was done by a guy in Scotland
i like it
www.linuxcnc.org/bdi - You get to see the graphics on the CD
bmurphy that penguin looks like he wants to give someone a Colonoscopsy
he scares me!
that page was the one i was looking at paul..its sharp
* paul_c checks the size of the CF card....
i have to come up with some logo for paragon
bmurphy you're the paragon are you?
don't tell anybody..i'm keeping it a secret
bmurphy a regular paragon of virtue I'm sure :)
this shift is just TOO long
bmurphy hey just use a diamond
a paragon is also an unflawed diamond of at least 100 carats
it is a possiblity
and where the heck did u pull that from?
plus diamonds look cool ya gotta admit
[02:28:59] <pfred1> http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=paragon
* pfred1 has a few for running across grinding wheels i nthe shop ...
yea hthat's it when i hit the lottery I'm gonna get me some paragons to dress my wheels with!
but not at 100K
I used to make fluid motion wheel dressers
i didn't know that
I bet henry is dead by now
i used it because it means a model of excellence
yeah if it was me I'd go with some sort of a diamond
i just might fred
cmon everyone loves to be associated with diamonds
some big - ol liz taylor diamond
a girl's best friend!
diamonds go over big in industry too
*humming along to kerry livgren **
bmurphy ever read any sci-fi?
i did years ago
i don't read anything anymore that isn't computer stuff
bmurphy diamonds made me think of this title http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0553573314/102-6717583-9724932?v=glance
I still read cyberpunk now and again kinda got a thing for it
but messing with computers and CNC and stuff me buying into cyberpunk isn't much of a leap really
Snow Crash now that's a bad assed title!
I got an electronic copy of that floating around here someplace ...
* cough bookwarez cough *
bmurphy you ever read any Stephenson?
paul_c scared them off!
Better a friendly greating than total silence.
so do u do this full time paul?
bmurphy the real question is when are you going to be done Paul?
as in "I don't have a proper job", yes.
* paul_c reaches for the cattle prod.
that means u work for yourself..
bmurphy the boss is always an asshole when you work for yourself!
Employed by HRM.gov
can never call him up cough into the reciever say you're sick!
but it gives me a chance to play.
and do the odd interesting job.
i was out of the computer bus for 2 and a half years before i got this job last month
paul_c hey if work was any fun they'd charge admission not pay you!
* paul_c has had a couple offers of employ...
you're always better off doing what you hate for work
that way you never mess up whatever it is that you like
need one of those green cards...
sorry, i disconnected myself
bmurphy sometimes i have a disconnected feeling too
whelp the weather's fine I'm going outside for a few here's something to read in those vast empty spaces http://artlung.com/smorgasborg/C_R_Y_P_T_O_N_O_M_I_C_O_N.shtml
see u fred
Hi Paul. How you doing today?
Started working on a set of Debian rules.
Neet. That package will really smooth out upgrades for a lot of folk.
In conjunction with the kernel & RT packages, yup.
You said that you had an rtai kernel. Was that a deb package?
Who maintains that?
[04:08:56] <paul_c> http://18.104.22.168/debs/binaries/
Okay. How difficult will it be to keep it up?
Could almost set up a cron job to run once a month.
No kidding. What are the differences between bdi60 and 61
and why label the kernel and modules with the bdi version?
good morning guys
minor change to one of the modules
Hi Dan. Feeling any better?
cramfs is compiled in (as I recall).
yea. I've been fooling around with rc46 while sitting around here
Get it going?
rayh: I set up ssh last night
So it's installed?
so I have it running through an Apple Cube
my internet computer
initially, I set up bdi2.18 and had X working
EMC running on the Apple!
it was awesome
it runs much faster through ssh than throug VNC
You can see an x display through ssh?
Wow. You need to write that up.
now though, I have rc46 going and the X display is being refused
We are using ssh at work to run ProE throug a linux box to our Apple machines
I am a total newbee when it comes to ssh.
it's pretty cool
So, it looks like there is a setting on rc46 ssh that isn't X forwarding
I think you'll need to configure Xhosts
to allow exporting via eth0
paul_c: thanks, I will look into that today
I'd bet. So the linux is ap serving ProE
rayh: yes it is. It's amazing!
I tried the ssh X one time but got text with 46 also.
it's running on a dog slow p450, so it runs slow on my machine (ProE)
So, I'm excited today
Smithy is running about 30 ltsp terminals from a single server.
I can see using one monitor between two machines my small shop
rayh: what kind of terminals?
I've thought a lot about using all black boxes at each machine and a single display with all the graphical interfaces.
I plan on the mill being next to the lathe with one display
LTSP is a linux project. Portland public schools had a lot to do with the developement. Red Hat worked with them on it.
rayh: oh that's right. you told me about that a while ago.
Smithy purchased the official ltsp terminals. 1.5x5x6 total
I could really see a lot of use for ssh and x for troubleshooting a users EMC software.
paul_c: sorry to be lazy, but where would I find Xhosts? etc/X11?
I'm looking right now...locat Xhosts
I guess I need to be 'root' at the actual machine that I am altering- xhost
Yay... This deb rule stuff looks as if it is going to be fairly easy
emc_0.0.0-0_i386.deb is done.
* paul_c is away: Gone for food
rayh: success again!
Check /etc/ssh/sshd_config for a line saying "X11Forwarding yes".
on bdi rc_46 machine
then on client:
ssh -l dan -X email@example.com (nic address)
kedit works on the Mac OS X box
I will log in as root and try EMC now
log in as a normal usr
and use sudo
Hey that's great.
i have sherline_inch going!
rayh: do you want to see a screen shot?
is it coming through?
I may have a problem. It says waiting.
Ah. Got it on the way.
irc is nice
It's connected by I don't seeany transfer.
i will try again
Not gonna do it. I'll have to look at my settings. Want to send email?
Try it again here?
ok. it's on the way
email that is
try again here too
Nope. I'll keep looking at the settings.
I see the mail coming through. About a week and I shouldhave it.
sorry for the length. I'll trim it down next time
I'm very excited about this. I have been limited on space for a computer
this will change everything
funny how it is- bigger house but less space for stuff....
It's here. That looks great. I'll have to forward to my son Joe. He's a mac nut.
the speed from bdi2.18 was great. rc46 is very slow
would changing to icewm help?
I will try running without X (is that possible?)
nope. need X for sure.
* rayh gotta run
good day gents..
just of criosity would you think EMC will ever support NURBS interpolation?
* paul_c is back
paul_c: I got the Xserver for ssh working
Check /etc/ssh/sshd_config for a line saying "X11Forwarding yes".
and got a basic debian package built for EMC
how basic? as in small footprint?
just need to sort out minor details like menu entries & tagging files as configs, and were done.
emc.deb is just on 1Meg.
paul_c: what to look at a screen shot of EMC running ssh on OS X?
hey danfalck - Missed your last question...
wanna try that again ?
methinks Dan's firewall is getting in the way.
No route to host.
try the old fashoned way email.
Now... If we could get RTAI installed on the mac....
there is a fair chance EMC would compile.
I'm happy enough just ssh to a linux box
just for the fun of it
I can't afford to have a Mac in the shop
Would also be interested to see if rcslib will compile under osX
with the price of half decent ix86 kit, it's hardly worth risking a Mac.
I just wanted to do it because I like this Mac for other stuff and it's sitting in my living room
it's a great jukebox
paul_c: let me try to send that file again.
I need to re login to make the changes take effect.
be back in a few....
ok let me try again
Time for bed.
* daryl_v drops a pin.
hello there ;)
this is alex...
have you been around emc long?
not this IRC channel if that is what you mean
actually emc in general...
oh I started messing around with that in like 2002 I think it was
I'm kinda a late starter...I found emc early this year...
so only like 2 years
but I really like the effort put in emc2
have you had the chance to try it out?
well I'm a late finisher being as I've never actually run a machine with it yet myself
I've run EMC itself
but not on a machine not done with it
I kind of work on it off and on
well... same here
I wanted to make a cutting machine
plasma or oxy-fuel
but I couldn't finish it yet...
mechanics I mean...
if I were to make a cutting machine I'd go with water jet
you ever seen water jet work?
it'll cut clean through a foot of steel
yup... unfortunately it's expensive ...
worth every penny
and here at work I sell Plasma-cutting machines
so... guess that's more handy ;)
yeah they're nice
me I went lo tech with my mechanics it worked out pretty easily
* alex_joni is still learning about mechanics...
my BSc in computers is not very helpfull there ;)
I used HDPE as anti backlash nuts and the guide bushings
and hand ground threaded rod for the drive leads
when I run it I'll see how long it holds up I bet it'll last a while
well... I wanna go with something like 3x6m
so I really need rack drive
ah for speed?
yeah mine's like 1x2 I guess
and for distance...
I was just reading through the logs here...
seen you had a long talk with paul...
make that paul_c
he's the most active person on the channel
pretty long with the project too...
helped me a lot
with your mechanics?
he should be back on pretty soon maybe an hour or so I'd guess
I did commit some stuff to emc2
hmm when I ran emc it looked like it was complete to me
but emc2 is a complete makeover
easier to maintain, develop, etc
it has a HAL now
oh on the packaging end?
a Hardware Abstraction Layer
packaging will get there too... right now not done yet
not so sure i want HAL I saw what he did to those astronauts
HAL is actually pretty cool
you have different entities
e.g. stepgen (step pulses generator)
hey I got a question maybe you know the answer
and you can map (link signals) those outputs to other outputs (e.g. parport pins)
but it's very flexible...
what's the minimum CPU power requirements for EMC these days?
that's more depending on what you wanna run
what GUI & stuff
but... I'm running EMC on a 300 Mhz SBC
say minimal setup
've heared people running on way less...
but gui not text
should do the trick...
but if you go with steppers (output on parport)
you can't really have very fast stepping frequencies...
because it's been an issue with me being as I've never completely run the stuff
depends also on your hardware part...
what motors you have, how you wanna drive them, etc
well can you figure out your maximum outputted steps?
like each machine must be only able to deliver a maximum step output right?
thing is... you have a PERIOD parameter in your ini file
yeah how would you figure that out?
and you can work with that
if you decrease your PERIOD it works faster
is there like a utility?
the PERIOD is the period for the RT stuff to run
ah so it's sort of like power timing a car then?
* alex_joni not going into too much detail
just keep jacking it up til it pings then back it off some?
the real time stuff runs with higher priority on the rest (normal linux stuff)
it runs from a timer (set by PERIOD)
if PERIOD is too low... then the RT stuff runs all the time
so a low period is safe but not optimal performance?
and the rest of the linux is freezed
or a high period rather
and your PC stops working...
a high period gives you safety
but slow step pulses
but at a cost of CNC performance?
high period = slow frequency
thanks that helps somewhat
so... you gotta find an optimum
well that's a whole other can of worms i have to deal with there
you can decrease PERIOD till the GUI is somehow slow
see i built my own stepper drivers
I've boult a few different kinds
buttons get cliked hard... and so on
and i always have the same problem
then you have a maximum of output frequency
they only reliably reverse at what i consider to be pretty low RPMs
say like 200 RPM
that's because of the steppers
but once it's going you cna go way faster
you cannot reverse a stepper at full speed
you need to deaccel
but if you tried to reverse at that speed
and accel away
OK does the software handle that?
and EMC does that
you have a max-accel param inthe ini
well that explains a whole lot!
I thought I was going to have to make some sort of hardware ramp up deal or something
a stepper is a very fragile thing once outside his normal working area
you go too fast... it looses steps
well the motors i got are rated at 2000 RPM
mechanical momento is too big... it looses steps
even if you go at 1000 RPM
and running them I'm like how the hell you get it to go that speed?
well... how many degs/stepare they?
ah they're the 400 steps a rev type?
they're vextas of some sort I got the model number around someplace
400 steps/rev is pretty common
266 I seem to recall
in the model numbers
266 / rev
no they're like 400 steps a rev
so 400 * 2000 = 800000 (steps/minute)
that means 13333 (steps/second)
probably would mean melted HDPE on the floor too if i ran them like that
what I'm using as my drive nuts
High Density PolyEthelyne
or however it's spelt
well.. depends on your OUTPUT_ratio
how many inches do you travel / pulse...
that depends on gearings & such
you take the max speed you need to drive...
and calc. from there
I think I'm just going to direct couple at the outset simplest
stuff's complicated enough!
you can do that if your motors have enough torque
althought i kinda figured out my max travel at the steps i have been able to achieve
and it's not exactly blinding speed
something like 6 ipm I think it was
6 inches / min ?
you did the math.. can't say you're wrong without knowing driving ratios
that 6inches / min is at 2000 RPM?
at the pulse rate I have been able to achieve to date
which is pretty low
and that's ... how much?
actually that's an issue of some question too because when i measured it I came up with 2 different answers
hmmm... how do you generate the output?
somewhere between 1.38 and 3.8 ms
oh to just run the motor i used a 555 timer
to make the pulses
my drivers have step and dir inputs
so i just fed the 555 pulses to step and had a switch on dir
and i tried different waveshapes
before i hook anything up to a PC i have to make a whole buffer board
one thing I'll say for steppers they're noisy!
they put out an inductive backlash so bad you can dance to it
I mean i thought a big part of my problem was noise
noisy .. how?
you mean ... audio?
stepper motors make a lot of signal noise
hmmm.. that should be killed by the drive
any optocoupling on the drives?
I will optocouple my buffer
but the drive itself really can't be
unless you can run a stepper on light :)
you always have to sepparate the logic stuff from the motor stuff
I always have a optocoupler at the entrance of the drive
LED with opto-transister
well my drive is homemade and it's a bit of a strange one
I had to make the logic to generate the stepping pulses
often times that logic is internal to a driver chip
but the chip i went with they wanted it to be more versitle
so they didn't include it
well.. I did that too (myself)
care for a schematic ?
to make a long story short much of the trouble i had was ultimately related to a faulty power supply which I learned about later
using it in another project
the transformer in it is bad in a very strange manner
but now that I have that figured out i can move on
you have a power supply for the drives.. right?
and a power supply for the PC... (or whatever send signals to the drives)
and those need to be sepparated...
well when I was prototyping the circuit I knew I'd need a dedicated supply
what voltage do the motors require?
that has been somewhat of a sticking point too
I am running them chopped so their ratings don't really matter
it's more of an ampacity issue now
and they can handle 2 amps
so far I've fed them one
when you chop voltage doesn't matter
well til you hit insulative breakdown
but I'm not going there!
I'd imagine these motors wouldn't breakdown before say 600V ?
and i only plan on using 24V
don't know bout that... got to see how warm they get
when in load...
yeah your machine will need some large motors
me I was a little more conservative in my first attempt
I actually run on DC motors
should be enough...
here a gecko is an insurance company
[21:27:04] <alex_joni> http://www.geckodrive.com/products.htbml
I have G340's
so you have regular DC motors?
with no servo mechinism on them?
well.. the G340 is a servo
you drive it like a stepper
and it drives the DC motor with an encoder hooked up to it
ok so it is a servo then?
it's not a gecko it's a servo
it's a gecko-servo
but a servo with an interface
yeah if i get this first stepper machine going next I may try a servo design
being as I've run into all of these speed issues
it's designed so you can easily switch from a Stepper
to a DC-motor
but then again steppers do hold a lot better than a servo ever can
unless you just like to see parts smoke
how are servos at lower speeds?
I'd imagine they must be pretty horrible
DC motors don't like to run too slow
they do sing a lot ;)
because of the PWM
well they're designed to mask their limitations I'd imagine beefed up to dissipate the heat
ah i call that voice coiling
steppers do that if you try to overdrive them right off the bat
the whole you're beyond your starting speed deal
I liked the way the geckos are behaving
I'm setting up a wire-feeder for TIG welding ..
with a gecko and a 555 ;)
hmm wouldn't that be MIG then?
it's TIG with coldwire
for mechanized welding
yeah welding isn't so hard
to do manually i mean
I know ;)
* alex_joni prefers letting his robots do the work...
for me welding is fun
I prefer TIG
TIG is slow...
tho it depends on the job
but nicer.. more stable
and .. more quiet
I have both
no noise ;)
I sell equipment :P
well I've bought plenty of equipment
I probably been welding for longer than you've been alive
like 24 years now :)
well.. bullseye ;)
yup I hit the big 4 0 next week and i started welding when i was like 17
I seen pretty cool pipe welders
that'd be about the only welding machne that looks very hand to me pipes can be a pain
when i make exhaust systems for friends i make them rotate it for me :)
turn it turn it!
hmm that reminds me
my buddy kurt lactomangulated his head pipe recently and i offered to weld a new part onto it for him i gotta call him later
they want $100 for that pipe!
me I'll charge him a beer
long as he's rotating it I just gotta sit there
one thing i like with welding is them LCD hoods
makes it like it's a video game then
I got an Optrel
when i bought it this other guy i know said i was nuts til he tried it
he's the one that came up with the video game line afterwards
this isn't welding this is like playing a video game!
worth every last penny!
I don't really like LCD ones...
I am sometimes welding Tandem
2 x 400 Amps
with a robot (not manually...)
and I have the teach pendant in my hand.. to adjust params
and the LCD in the other hand...
because if it's on my head.. I can't see anything else (like params & such)
and the problem with LCD is... when you tilt it...
I mean... if the LCD is not 100% vertical... it will let more light through...
and that really sux...
you should invent the heads up hood
yeah i always look at my beads straight on no need to look at anything else
yup... lucky you ;)
I always have some tests to weld...
customer comes with his part
I gotta decide what parameters to weld...
and with Tandem it's even harder
are you familiar with Tandem =
nope i just weld
Tandem is twin MIG
you know grab the stinger and go sort of a guy
2 power sources
2 drive units
why not just use a bigger wire?
it's better than a bigger wire
you can even mix welding types
or wire types
do alloy with the second wire...
I just have a small MIG unit i use on small gauge materials if i want to weld something big i use a stick
I don't like stick ;)
what's not to like about it?
it's too messy... gotta clean the weld after that
ah you don't like grinding your root?
can't do this with stick : http://www.sudura.ro/pub/a14.jpg
I'm sure there's plenty one can't do
but I've seen welders that can!
depends on how fast too...
I seen guys run hot downhill
with MIG you get a LOT higher deposition rates
some of the work I've seen steamfitters do
you not getting no robot down in no ditch to weld together any pipe
I agree on that...
that's a man's work!
I am talking about series production...
not custom jobs
at custom jobs (or small spaces) there is no possibility to replace men ;)
it's like another thing I like to do woodworking now sure there's plenty of new fangled tools to accomplish woodworking tasks
but simetimes you're better off reaching for a hammer and a chisel than setting up some machine
but not if you gotta do 300k parts / year ;)
identical parts that is...
yeah then you have to do as effeciently as possible that's high production there
I installed 9 robots in a factory near my location
even when i worked in a machine shop there a run of 10K parts was a lot
and they went up from 6 boogies to 22 / day
drilling the same hole for a week is pretty boring occupation!
they were still better off having me do it than a robot though
don't know if you want to do it 24/7
well will a robot shovel the chips off the floor?
I know i had to at end of shift
there are machines that can do that ;)
but by the time you're done buying the shoverling robot the can lugging robot the drilling robot I'm cheaper
face it humans still cheap
and they're versitle
that same shop they tried to make a CNC product of their main product
it never worked out
yup... you're right on some setups
but there are a lot of fields (and the number is growing), where some automation is very helpfull
I'm not an adept to remove men completely...
just to take over some stuff...
I think you may see the day when mechanization is the rule
I probably won't though
it'll be a strange world then though because tedious work builds character
well... I guess we'll see...
but EMC is a good step froward ;)
no you'll see I'll be dead :)
I don't think it's that far away...
won't happen in my lifetime
I'm trying to find pic of tool i used to make I think they went out of business finally
the machine shop i used to work at
we used to make this gadget called a fluid motion wheel dresser
that's what they tried to CNC
Henry Swensen must be long dead by now
he was like 86 when i worked there
and that must have been 20 years ago?
maybe the old bastard is 106 now
nah he was stubborn but not that stubborn!
that old guy would come into the shop working on whatever it was that he was working on and he'd be lifting these vises onto milling tables and whatnot
I'd run over say Henery let me help you!
I mean he was 86!
throwing a 200 pound vise up onto a milling table
* alex_joni is in search for some way to forward X to M$
there's commercial products that can do that
welcome to Microsoft have a nice pay
a free version :D
I don't like to pay M$ stuff...
looking at Cygwin/X
alex_joni better than me i don't like to run it period
I gotta run my machine at work... :(
althoug I don't like it...
alex_joni you computer expert write linux driver for machine
don't know about computer expert... ;)
wanna see something?
hey paul_c: when did you get in?
: idle : 0 hours 7 mins 48 secs (signon: Sun Nov 7 06:57:21 2004)
paul_c has been idle 7mins 27secs, signed on Sun Nov 07 13:57:21
alex_joni se I told ya he'd be here in about an hour
-:- DCC Unable to create connection: Connection refused
I'll send you a http link... ok?
alex_joni me i just put pics up on my webserver
[22:50:04] <alex_joni> http://22.214.171.124/emcstuff/dektop.jpg
pfred1: what addy?
alex_joni woo neato
now it's even neater
I'm running emc2
chipping Chips ;)
I really love this stuff...
paul_c told me that there's a new emc coming out so I'm waiting on it
well a newer BDI at anyrate
alex_joni3 PC crash?
M$ rulez :)))))
I just plugged an extra monitor in.. and it rebooted ;)
well monitors aren't hotplug devices
thought they were ;)
time to wake up here
* pfred1 plays Iggy_Pop_Stooges-No_Fun.mp3
pfred1: just updated the pic
alex_joni3 is now known as alex_joni
Floh sounds german ;)
Yes I'm from Germany
[23:12:58] <alex_joni> http://126.96.36.199/emcstuff/dekstop-extended.jpg
well... I'm from Rum�nien ;)
* alex_joni is running emc2 on a second monitor on his M$ box...
FloH: any experiences with emc?
alex_joni I'm playing my guitar a bit here
I've a litte milling machine with servos and I have bought servo amlifierers and a Siemens-ISA-Bord. When I get it I will do son experiences with EMC2 and the Driver from Martin Kuhle
where did you get the ISA-Board from?
amplifiers now that's something I am in with
* pfred1 is running 2 of his amps he's built right now :)
I will get it from the man who gougt the rest of the cards from eBay
I see... ;)
my Chips is done...
me I make my own amplifiers
that way if they blow up I cna just laugh
does anyone here make any of their own electronics?
pfred1: I do... sometimes ;)
Yes, i too
alex_joni yeah what you make?
sometimes I do that
or only the design and bring that to a local board-manufacturer
for the PCB
mostly when 2-sides ;)
sometimes i make simple stuff and I'm like oh it's not worth etching a oard then halfway through it's always the same thing why didn't i etch a board for this?
yeah let me see these boardhouse boards
you mean pics?
I could send you a layout...
here's the layout for my next amp http://188.8.131.52:10000/Electronics/Projects/next/60_Watts/60-pre-cap.jpg
how about jpg?
everyone can deal with that
till then... http://184.108.40.206/emcstuff/chips-done.jpg
that board preamp when i build that amp it'll blow down walls!
here's the power section http://220.127.116.11:10000/Electronics/Projects/next/60_Watts/60-power-src.jpg
BTW Linux has nice board routing software with free demo the stuf i using in those screeners
someplace i got my stepper drivers I made i never etched board for them yet all that other trouble i ran into with the prototypes
I don't like to commit until I'm sure it works and well I wasn't so sure
[23:31:47] <alex_joni> http://18.104.22.168/emcstuff/ioboard.jpg
some sample IO-board I made
it's 16 I/ 16 O optocoupled, connected to a PC104
alex_joni SMT ?
yeah i don't like that stuff had to do it for a living once
it sux for experimental stuff
OK if you got million dollar infard setup
but for knock off homebrew boards ther's no reason to use SMT for me
I usually use test-boards
and when it's ok... I switch to SMT ;)
I don't have the gear to deal with the stuff
I see no advantages to it
and plenty of detractors
well... it's more robust than test-boards
and wires ...
it's no more robust than through hole components
don't always use SMT
or well soldered wires for that matter
on that board half is through hole...
but why use SMT at all?
you know why big companies use it don't you?
no that's not why
I use it when I need the space
it's easier for them to robo build
man when are yo uever so pressed for space?
you sending this crap into space?
when I want to make a PC104 board
well there you got me i have no idea what a PC104 is
and i got this far in life not knowing so I'd rather not :)
it's got standards for board-size, connectors, etc...
well... I also prefer sticking to through-hole
ah it's some standard you're limiting yourself to
sometimes...I can't find packages for components other than SMT...
me i limit myself to 3x5 boards because that's all my demo software will do
yup i know that's a trend
that an ethernet chip?
yeah I buy ethernet boards
I used it on a project with an ATMega128 microcontroller
or pull them out of dumps special machines
the ATMega too comes only SMT
well they're trying to tell you something there then
they're trying to tell yo uthat they don't want you using their parts
I guess some chips they have to make SMT
but it's just too much for me to deal with personally
the equipment you need to really use that stuff is not realistically obtained
I am not Intel
I'm not either ;)
the probes the soldering machines desoldering machines
I use a normal solder ;)
yeah how you take chip up?
sure remove it from board
say by chance you got a bad one
or it got hit by lightning
I see... with a 400 degs hot-air ... (don't know how it's called)
or decided you wanted to use another one in it's place higher specs
hot air gun?
yeah that pulls them off?
20$ hot air gun
gotta be carefull thou...
see I'm just not that careful a guy
it usually is pretty problematic if you have more chips around the one you want to remove
but it's doable
me I'd burn my house down or something trying to pull that stunt off
it gets easier in time ;)
the RTL's I take off from older eth-cards
wouldn't be a laughing matter me out in the street clothes on my back
don't want to spend 10$ on the chip, when I get a full eth-card with 1$
well you're you said what 24?
because it's 10 MBit... way old ;)
when i was 24 that stuff wasn't nearly as small as it is today
let me tell you though
as time goes by I am seeing the utility of optics!
yup.. me too...
lets just say that for close work i do it under a magnifying glass today
when years ago I didn't!
having sometimes trouble myself without magnifying glasses ;)
for some work...
well ah i hate to break it to ya but we're not exactly fine wine that gets better with age
I know ;)
quite the opposite in fact!
well... depends on the point of view
there are things that get better
no I'm pretty scared a friend of mine just went blind
oh.. sorry to hear that...
well his eyes were always bad
but now I think all he sees are like shadows
hello...was just running the stepper test system with MIRC in the background
but that's an extreme case
me that small stuff is just getting smaller everyday
Talking about surface mount?
yeah i used to assemble PCBs and we'd have to use SMT
I use a soldering iron under a microscope
so I've like sworn it off for life at this point
there must be a better way
yeah my way just say no to SMT
haha but I have to build up stuff a lot it seems
I been messing with electronics since i was like 8 years old
me too I guess
I love it and I ain't gonna let the industry ruin it for me!
I am gettin to old to hand place 603 resistors
when i strip components i throw all the SMT stuff out
alex_joni it's a pretty board you have here but know what? I'd hate to have to make it!
[23:55:50] <pfred1> http://22.214.171.124:10000/Electronics/Projects/Overdrive/MakeOverdrive/stuffboard5.jpg
that's about as tight as i like to make it
I am now working on a GUI...customer says it looks "too military"
i'll make it purple...
les how'd you know what color crayon i filled out my draft card with?
I'd love to see a purple GUI :)
funniest thing is it's true!
when I did that i was like no way i want to be drafted
not that i wouldn't serve mind you but hey to be told to?
wish I could show you a screen shot...need to set up the blog I have
thank god i don't have to worry about that now
you know they going to reinstate it now