Back
[00:01:22] <seb_kuzminsky> but on the other hand, the computational way just needs one or two easy-to-measure inputs that you get from a data sheet
[00:01:46] <seb_kuzminsky> but on the third hand, it has no way to adjust for discrepancies between theory and reality
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[00:09:41] <andypugh> The lut has to search the index, so it’s not that clear-cut. Though a sensible LUT implementation stores the index between calls as most inputs vary slowly.
[00:29:28] <jepler> seb's code is well worse than "a polynomial" though
[00:30:15] <jepler> libm exp and log will turn out not only to be expensive in the usual case, but to have some input values that take 10x or even 100x as long to compute as the average
[00:31:14] <andypugh> But, and this is probably important, folk will be able to understand how to use it. Almost nobody “gets” what lincurve is useful for.
[00:31:47] <jepler> and I wish more people would use lut5 :_
[00:31:49] <jepler> :)
[00:32:18] <andypugh> Lincurve can do anything that LUT5 can do :-)
[00:32:47] <andypugh> I am wondering just how many of the HAL components could be replaced by LUT, if you were feeling really eccentric
[00:33:17] <andypugh> Any unary function, I suppose, or any that can be converted into a unary function.
[00:33:32] <andypugh> bldc is one example
[00:34:20] <andypugh> (To use lincurve as LUT5 you need the weighted sum and a number of type conversions)
[00:34:22] <jepler> enough lut5s can do anything lincurve can do!
[00:34:33] <jepler> .. but the number is probably in the hundreds
[00:34:47] <andypugh> I am giggling at the thought.
[00:34:59] <jepler> .. thousands?
[00:36:12] <andypugh> For any floating point input you need a floating point output, so you need a 4 x 64 array of LUT5
[00:36:34] <andypugh> No, only 2 x 64, isn’t it?
[00:36:55] <seb_kuzminsky> on second thoughts, let's not go to camelot
[00:37:03] <andypugh> That’s worst case. If there are any duplicate values or flat areas in the curve I think you can save some
[00:38:38] <andypugh> No, it’s too late here. You only get 5 input bits per LUT5. If you map every bit of a float to a LUT5 input, and have that many LUT5s for each bit of the output, I think you can do it.
[00:40:12] <andypugh> 832 LUT5 components can perform any mathematical transfomration in finite time. Possibly quite a short time too.
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[00:42:15] <andypugh> Or am I wrong? I wouldn’t be surprised as that seems to suggest that a 64-bit x 64 bit LUT is a perfectly reasonable way to do any mathematical function of floats, at a cost that seems reasonable by modern memiry statndards.
[00:44:27] <jepler> my own train of thought made me think that you'd need 64 128-input LUTs, but I didn't figure out how many LUT5s that would be
[00:45:30] <jepler> a 5-input LUT needs 32 bits to specify, an N-input lut needs 2^N bits, so you need 64*2^128 bits to specify this constellation of LUTs. I think that's infeasible.
[00:46:57] <andypugh> Yes.
[00:47:21] <andypugh> I was analysing it pictorially in my head, and starting from a false premise.
[00:48:13] <andypugh> A 64-bit x 64-bit table defines one output bit.
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[00:48:25] <andypugh> Youneed 64 of them.
[00:49:48] <andypugh> Even then, 32k for an arctan calculated entirely by bit operations might be reasonable in some situations.
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[00:50:28] <andypugh> And, once again, I get it wrong….
[00:50:38] <andypugh> I’ll just shut up
[00:52:39] <andypugh> The count of all possible floating point numbers is the same as the count of all possible long ints, and that _isn’t_ a sensible amount of memory to allocate to a LUT. By definition you couldn’t address it.
[00:53:47] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03Dewey Garrett 05joints_axes10 9477879 06linuxcnc 10src/emc/usr_intf/axis/scripts/axis.py axis.py remove blanks in trajcoordinates * 14http://git.linuxcnc.org/?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commitdiff;h=9477879
[00:53:47] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03Dewey Garrett 05joints_axes10 02a9d30 06linuxcnc 10src/emc/usr_intf/axis/scripts/axis.py axis.py decode ja_rbutton value for joint homing * 14http://git.linuxcnc.org/?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commitdiff;h=02a9d30
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[01:22:30] <jepler> I wrote a "simple"(?) benchmark program of exp() and ran it on a 64-bit userspace
[01:22:42] <jepler> the majority off exp() calls take around 2^5 cycles
[01:22:57] <jepler> but some outliers, <<1%, take much more, around 2^11 cycles
[01:25:21] <jepler> https://emergent.unpythonic.net/files/sandbox/mathbench.cc
[01:30:07] <andypugh> So, worst case at 2GHz is about 1 uS?
[01:31:05] <jepler> but if there are one-in-a-million outliers, are there also one-in-a-billion outliers? there are a lot of special cases in libc's exp() function!
[01:31:17] <andypugh> Hopefully nobody gas 1000 thermistors :-)
[01:31:18] <jepler> seb_kuzminsky: can you kick the buildbot? Not sure from here what's stuck...
http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/buildbot/builders/0000.checkin/builds/3855
[01:31:30] <seb_kuzminsky> fine fine, i'll reimplement it as a network of luts and lincurves
[01:31:42] <seb_kuzminsky> jepler: i just noticed that too...
[01:32:28] <seb_kuzminsky> [103463.899271] INFO: rcu_preempt detected stalls on CPUs/tasks: { 0} (detected by 1, t=21450656 jiffies, g=609207, c=609206, q=8424)
[01:32:32] <seb_kuzminsky> [103463.899271] INFO: rcu_sched self-detected stall on CPU { 1} (t=21440482 jiffies g=-165 c=-166 q=23)
[01:33:07] <seb_kuzminsky> thanks for those quick fixes, dewey
[01:33:11] <seb_kuzminsky> if you're listening
[01:33:18] <andypugh> It is interesting that exp() is so variable.
[01:35:18] <jepler> the implementation of exp is pretty horrifying, particularly if you don't spend much time with math code
https://sourceware.org/git/?p=glibc.git;a=blob;f=sysdeps/ieee754/dbl-64/e_exp.c;h=ad1bc84625a7f779004d144219619387f0021860;hb=d7f914848b7d5e9b11bbffd1fecc4659d4acdc2d
[01:36:05] <jepler> but you'll notice at line 104 it can call __slowexp
[01:36:21] <jepler> .. which is in
https://sourceware.org/git/?p=glibc.git;a=blob;f=sysdeps/ieee754/dbl-64/slowexp.c;h=b6022627837f5b438ac4933674c20f7838fd7f22;hb=d7f914848b7d5e9b11bbffd1fecc4659d4acdc2d
[01:36:30] <jepler> 52
[01:36:30] <jepler> 53 /* Use the multiple precision __MPEXP function to compute the exponential
[01:36:33] <jepler> 54 First at 144 bits and if it is not accurate enough, at 768 bits. */
[01:36:41] <jepler> so there's the good case, the 144-bit slow case, and the 768-bit slow case
[01:39:53] <andypugh> That sort-of hints that there isn’t the one-in-a-billion 1mS version.
[01:39:56] <jepler> there may be room in the world for a "realtime libm" which doesn't have the same accuracy guarantee as glibc's libm (for instance, that exp() is correctly rounded for all arguments in the round-to-nearest mode, but instead a lesser guarantee like that 12 bits are accurate..) but has no worst-case execution time
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[01:41:30] <seb_kuzminsky> everything is so broken
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[01:41:45] <seb_kuzminsky> the buildmaster now gets wedged when the jessie rtai i386 buildslave hangs
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[01:42:17] <andypugh> “An Ultimate exp routine” for a specific value of ultimate (ie, as accurate as possible)
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[01:46:39] <jepler> actually if I can believe the debugger, I have hit the 144-bit case but not the 768-bit case
[01:48:28] <jepler> (I set a breakpoint and it was never hit during my million repetitions)
[01:54:09] <jepler> $ python -mtimeit -s 'from math import exp' 'exp(-1)'
[01:54:09] <jepler> 10000000 loops, best of 3: 0.0742 usec per loop
[01:54:09] <jepler> $ python -mtimeit -s 'from math import exp' 'exp(-1.6286668646459018e-08)'
[01:54:12] <jepler> 1000000 loops, best of 3: 0.844 usec per loop
[01:54:34] <jepler> wow the speed difference between the fast case and the 144-bit case is large enough that it's big compared to Python function-call overhead
[01:54:50] <seb_kuzminsky> yikes
[01:55:48] <seb_kuzminsky> you know what
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[01:55:52] <seb_kuzminsky> it doesnt matter
[01:56:01] <seb_kuzminsky> since none of our rtai math libs have exp
[01:56:07] * seb_kuzminsky <-- idiot
[01:56:22] <seb_kuzminsky> or log
[01:56:24] <seb_kuzminsky> sigh
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[02:07:30] <jepler> $ python -mtimeit -s 'from math import exp; x=7.3149264423210325e-12' 'exp(x)'
[02:07:33] <jepler> 100000 loops, best of 3: 18.5 usec per loop
[02:07:59] <jepler> or 2^16 cycles according to my cycle-counting program
[02:10:26] <jepler> and yes it was about 2 billion iterations to find that one value ..
http://paste.debian.net/361720/
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[03:00:04] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03Dewey Garrett 05joints_axes10 0864f3e 06linuxcnc 10src/emc/usr_intf/axis/scripts/axis.py axis.py unhome_joint fix cut/paste mistake * 14http://git.linuxcnc.org/?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commitdiff;h=0864f3e
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[03:25:37] <linuxcnc-build> build #997 of 1902.clang-wheezy-rtai-i386 is complete: Failure [4failed compile] Build details are at
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[03:40:58] <linuxcnc-build> build #3054 of 1301.rip-precise-rtai-i386 is complete: Failure [4failed compile] Build details are at
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[03:53:14] <linuxcnc-build> build #3849 of 1201.rip-lucid-rtai-i386 is complete: Failure [4failed compile] Build details are at
http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/buildbot/builders/1201.rip-lucid-rtai-i386/builds/3849 blamelist: Sebastian Kuzminsky <seb@highlab.com>
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[04:00:30] -linuxcnc-github:#linuxcnc-devel- [13linuxcnc] 15SebKuzminsky closed issue #23: joints _axes: cannot home in Axis GUI 02
https://github.com/LinuxCNC/linuxcnc/issues/23
[04:00:40] -linuxcnc-github:#linuxcnc-devel- [13linuxcnc] 15SebKuzminsky closed issue #22: joints_axes: hotkeys no longer select joints/axes in Axis GUI 02
https://github.com/LinuxCNC/linuxcnc/issues/22
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[04:25:51] <linuxcnc-build> build #1669 of 1401.rip-wheezy-rtai-i386 is complete: Failure [4failed compile] Build details are at
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[04:37:37] <linuxcnc-build> build #110 of 1505.rip-jessie-rtai-i386 is complete: Failure [4failed compile] Build details are at
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[04:44:37] <linuxcnc-build> build #3857 of 0000.checkin is complete: Failure [4failed] Build details are at
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[05:57:25] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03Chris Morley 05panelui 7b2e3d4 06linuxcnc 10(14 files in 4 dirs) component: panelui -add keyscan to ui command decoder * 14http://git.linuxcnc.org/?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commitdiff;h=7b2e3d4
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[12:14:43] <jthornton> sudo apt-get install linux-image-rt-686-pae returns unable to locate package, did the name change?
[12:19:48] <jthornton> or I skipped a step, starting over again
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[12:45:20] <jthornton> tried it twice and got E: Unable to locate package linux-image-rt-686-pae
[12:45:37] <Tom_itx> 17 quakes overnight
[12:46:02] <Tom_itx> 4.7 4.8 kicked it off
[12:46:31] <jthornton> yikes
[12:47:03] <Tom_itx> in Ok
[12:47:06] <Tom_itx> but we feel those
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[13:22:48] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03Jeff Epler 052.7 f7bda07 06linuxcnc fast forward * 14http://git.linuxcnc.org/?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commitdiff;h=f7bda07
[13:24:59] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03Jeff Epler 05master 3d430ba 06linuxcnc 10debian/control.in 10docs/src/Submakefile Merge remote-tracking branch 'origin/2.7' * 14http://git.linuxcnc.org/?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commitdiff;h=3d430ba
[13:24:59] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03Jeff Epler 05master 0221b06 06linuxcnc 10docs/src/Submakefile don't permit xsltproc to use the network * 14http://git.linuxcnc.org/?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commitdiff;h=0221b06
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[13:26:57] <jepler> seb_kuzminsky: looks like a buildslave hung again
http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/buildbot/builders/4014.deb-wheezy-rtpreempt-i386/builds/983
[13:28:46] <jepler> and hmph it's not one of the jessies this time
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[15:33:35] <seb_kuzminsky> jepler: i'm on it
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[15:37:52] <seb_kuzminsky> jthornton: debian stopped shipping the rt-preempt kernel you're looking for
[15:39:10] <jepler> seb_kuzminsky: thank you
[15:47:08] <seb_kuzminsky> it's bounced & back
[15:47:29] <seb_kuzminsky> i wonder if it's the cold that's making the buildbot so flaky - it's freezing in my garage
[15:48:03] <seb_kuzminsky> jthornton: i have on my to-do list a task to build our own rt-preempt kernels, but i haven't gotten to it yet :-/
[15:49:19] <jepler> I've had computers at my wife's office, which goes unheated nights and weekends, that crashed regularly during the winter and not at other times of the year
[15:49:29] <jepler> I scoffed and scoffed that it could be the cold, but that was the pattern
[15:49:39] <jepler> and then there was my internet connection that would fail at 4AM but only on cold days..
[15:51:41] <seb_kuzminsky> when i'm rich and famous i'm ging to have a real data center in my house
[15:51:44] <seb_kuzminsky> and a heated shop
[15:52:14] <cradek> sorry, it's rich and infamous that usually go together
[15:52:39] <seb_kuzminsky> jepler: i squashed your halcompile userspace build stuff into my earlier broken commits, and rebased the whole mess from 2.7 to master, so you can remove the jepler/thermistor branch if you want
[15:52:43] <seb_kuzminsky> thanks for the help
[15:52:56] <jepler> seb_kuzminsky: ok, thanks
[15:52:57] <seb_kuzminsky> i think i'm going to add count= and names=,,, support to halcompile's userspace
[15:53:06] <seb_kuzminsky> after my run
[15:53:07] <seb_kuzminsky> bbl!
[15:53:17] <pcw_home> jthornton: if you are brave you can build your own preempt-rt kernel: freeby.mesanet.com/makert4.1.15
[15:53:50] <KGB-linuxcnc> 05jepler/thermistor 31fe16b 06linuxcnc 04. branch deleted * 14http://git.linuxcnc.org/?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commitdiff;h=31fe16b
[15:57:27] <pcw_home> you need to at the minimum set the 32/64 bittedness and preemption model (in processor types and features) to "Fully Preemptable Kernel"
[15:57:37] <pcw_home> (in xconfig)
[16:03:00] <seb_kuzminsky> oh yeah, i meant to show you guys this:
http://highlab.com/~seb/linuxcnc/scorbot-er-3/scorbot-drawing-1.jpg
[16:03:45] <archivist> why is it drawing on the roof
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[16:04:08] <jepler> it must be an image with an exif rotation specified
[16:04:17] <jepler> my ff shows it as expected, but it loaded from the bottom up
[16:04:17] <jepler> afk
[16:05:01] <cradek> seb_kuzminsky: awesome!
[16:05:05] <archivist> is that what you made the differential comp for
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[16:06:00] <archivist> I still have this bookmarked
http://highlab.com/~seb/linuxcnc/scorbot-er-3/0302152207.jpg
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[16:28:44] <linuxcnc-build> build #3860 of 0000.checkin is complete: Failure [4failed] Build details are at
http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/buildbot/builders/0000.checkin/builds/3860 blamelist: Sebastian Kuzminsky <seb@highlab.com>
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[16:43:34] <skunkworks> seb_kuzminsky, ja?
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[17:26:39] <jepler> neat, this guy used a BBB PRU to convert Apple video to HDMI.
http://lukazi.blogspot.com/2015/08/a2-serial-video-to-hdmi-converter.html
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[18:12:28] <pcw_home> 14 instructions so roughly 14 MHz sampling
[18:31:56] <pcw_home> I think the PRU has some fancy serial interface hardware but not sure if it has any open documentation
[18:35:36] <linuxcnc-build> build #346 of 4022.deb-jessie-amd64 is complete: Failure [4failed shell_3] Build details are at
http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/buildbot/builders/4022.deb-jessie-amd64/builds/346 blamelist: dummy, andypugh <andy@bodgesoc.org>, chris morley <chrisinnanaimo@hotmail.com>, Jeff Epler <jepler@unpythonic.net>, Chris Morley <chrisinnanaimo@hotmail.com>, John
[18:35:37] <linuxcnc-build> Thornton <bjt128@gmail.com>
[18:35:48] <linuxcnc-build> build #290 of 4019.deb-jessie-rtpreempt-i386 is complete: Failure [4failed shell_3] Build details are at
http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/buildbot/builders/4019.deb-jessie-rtpreempt-i386/builds/290 blamelist: dummy, andypugh <andy@bodgesoc.org>, chris morley <chrisinnanaimo@hotmail.com>, Jeff Epler <jepler@unpythonic.net>, Chris Morley
[18:35:48] <linuxcnc-build> <chrisinnanaimo@hotmail.com>, John Thornton <bjt128@gmail.com>
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[18:39:32] <linuxcnc-build> build #290 of 4020.deb-jessie-rtpreempt-amd64 is complete: Failure [4failed shell_3] Build details are at
http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/buildbot/builders/4020.deb-jessie-rtpreempt-amd64/builds/290 blamelist: dummy, andypugh <andy@bodgesoc.org>, chris morley <chrisinnanaimo@hotmail.com>, Jeff Epler <jepler@unpythonic.net>, Chris Morley
[18:39:33] <linuxcnc-build> <chrisinnanaimo@hotmail.com>, John Thornton <bjt128@gmail.com>
[18:40:59] <linuxcnc-build> build #347 of 4021.deb-jessie-i386 is complete: Failure [4failed shell_3] Build details are at
http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/buildbot/builders/4021.deb-jessie-i386/builds/347 blamelist: dummy, andypugh <andy@bodgesoc.org>, chris morley <chrisinnanaimo@hotmail.com>, Jeff Epler <jepler@unpythonic.net>, Chris Morley <chrisinnanaimo@hotmail.com>, John
[18:40:59] <linuxcnc-build> Thornton <bjt128@gmail.com>
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[18:47:12] <linuxcnc-build> build #29 of 4023.deb-jessie-rtai-i386 is complete: Failure [4failed shell_3] Build details are at
http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/buildbot/builders/4023.deb-jessie-rtai-i386/builds/29 blamelist: dummy, andypugh <andy@bodgesoc.org>, chris morley <chrisinnanaimo@hotmail.com>, Jeff Epler <jepler@unpythonic.net>, Chris Morley <chrisinnanaimo@hotmail.com>,
[18:47:12] <linuxcnc-build> John Thornton <bjt128@gmail.com>
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[19:00:51] <seb_kuzminsky> archivist: yes, the differential comp is for the wrist on that machine
[19:01:13] <seb_kuzminsky> i want to post a video of it homing the wrist, it's really neat
[19:01:35] <seb_kuzminsky> and world-mode wheel jogging
[19:01:47] <seb_kuzminsky> skunkworks: yeah, it's on ja
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[19:02:35] <seb_kuzminsky> that's how i discovered those ja axis bugs earlier this week - i rebased my robot arm branch to the tip of ja, to pick up the awesome wheel jogging stuff dgarr did
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[20:29:09] <skunkworks> seb_kuzminsky, awesome - can't wait for a video.
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[22:34:25] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03Dewey Garrett 05joints_axes10 1400eb8 06linuxcnc 10src/emc/nml_intf/emc.cc 10src/emc/nml_intf/emc_nml.hh nml was:EMC_AXIS_CMD_MSG is:EMC_JOG_CMD_MSG * 14http://git.linuxcnc.org/?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commitdiff;h=1400eb8
[22:34:25] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03Dewey Garrett 05joints_axes10 c908de4 06linuxcnc 10src/emc/nml_intf/emc.hh emc.hh remove gap and removed comment text * 14http://git.linuxcnc.org/?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commitdiff;h=c908de4
[22:34:25] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03Dewey Garrett 05joints_axes10 4f5060c 06linuxcnc 10src/emc/nml_intf/emc_nml.hh emc_nml.hh annotate j/a jog settings * 14http://git.linuxcnc.org/?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commitdiff;h=4f5060c
[22:34:27] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03Dewey Garrett 05joints_axes10 4734a12 06linuxcnc 10docs/src/code/nml-messages.txt nml-messages.txt update to reflect emc.hh * 14http://git.linuxcnc.org/?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commitdiff;h=4734a12
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