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[00:54:45] <jepler> the new forum will be live as soon as DNS propagates. thanks to swp for showing up to do his magic on our dns hosting
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[00:56:31] <Tom_itx> so that officially separates the webpage and forum
[01:01:11] <jepler> yes
[01:04:31] <jepler> and as seb_kuzminsky was saying earlier this weekend he's looking at redoing the "main" website with jekyll, a static site generator
[01:05:01] <Tom_itx> nice.. it's long overdue
[01:05:14] <jepler> afk for dinner
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[01:18:59] <seb_kuzminsky> i invite feedback on the new website, previewed here:
http://highlab.com/~seb/linuxcnc/wlo/
[01:19:42] <seb_kuzminsky> i especially invite patches and pull requests, source here:
https://github.com/sebkuzminsky/wlo
[01:20:27] <seb_kuzminsky> cradek: i did part of what you suggested, now only the 4 most recent posts show up on the front page, and all posts on the "News" page
[01:22:04] <jepler> you might want to kill the "welcome to jekyll" news item :-)
[01:22:10] <jepler> mmm bowl of chili
[01:22:37] <jepler> but something horrible happened: I have opened what appears to be the last jar of pickled jalapenos I made earlier this year :-(
[01:22:37] <seb_kuzminsky> oh yeah
[01:23:29] <jepler> seb_kuzminsky: I assume the doc links would work once the jekyll website was integrated on wlo
[01:23:34] <seb_kuzminsky> that's kind of cool... i ran 'git rm _posts/2015-11-04-welcome-to-jekyll.markdown', and 2 seconds later the site auto-updated
[01:23:34] <jepler> for now they're 404'd
[01:23:45] <seb_kuzminsky> jepler: yeah, that's the intent
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[01:24:24] <seb_kuzminsky> those links point at {{site.url}}/docs/mumble, which will be right once the _site tree is at
http://linuxcnc.org/
[01:24:42] <seb_kuzminsky> there are probably other broken links and missing images and things
[01:24:58] <seb_kuzminsky> and of course the actual content is hilariously out of date
[01:25:26] <seb_kuzminsky> http://highlab.com/~seb/linuxcnc/wlo/about/board-of-directors/
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[01:49:13] <jepler> I'm not always sure whether it's good or bad that we essentially lack governance
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[01:54:49] <jepler> anybody getting forum.linuxcnc.org yet?
[01:56:20] <Tom_itx> yes
[01:57:00] <Tom_itx> it's alive!
[01:57:29] <seb_kuzminsky> ooh, i'll update the Forum link on the new website ;-)
[01:57:53] <mozmck> jepler: I just got an email from the new forum - looks like it's up here!
[01:59:05] <jepler> huh .. where did the rss link go?
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[02:02:16] <seb_kuzminsky> jepler: i feel like our main problem is lack of developer-time, not lack of process and governance
[02:03:13] <seb_kuzminsky> what process we have is implemented by the test suite & the buildbot, and then constrained by the lack of human eyeballs for review & feedback
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[02:07:28] <micges> I think lack of governance is main problem
[02:07:33] <jepler> weird, on my chromebook the rss image is being blocked by ublock origin
[02:11:00] <seb_kuzminsky> micges: please elaborate
[02:14:13] <micges> as I started developing (>2009) we had this problem, in times when we have plenty developer-time this leads to chaotic commits flow
[02:15:01] <micges> one playing with runtests, one in motion, one in interp, noone checked api changes
[02:15:44] <micges> we lost plenty new developers who wanted to make some changes
[02:18:07] <seb_kuzminsky> micges: do i understand you correctly, you are saying: lack of oversight/governance leads to too many commits in different areas, which leads to internal api breakage?
[02:18:19] <micges> they wanted to fix something, there was no info about: project design, rules of approving patches, time plan of releases, future directions
[02:19:26] <micges> seb_kuzminsky: commits in different areas without main idea without general plan for project
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[02:20:14] <jepler> at a technical level, git (which we were not yet using in 2009) is helpful for that
[02:20:26] <seb_kuzminsky> i disagree
[02:20:53] <jepler> because a project can be published and receive feedback in a way we couldn't do with cvs
[02:21:13] <seb_kuzminsky> i think micges is pointing out the lack of project guidance, so contributors don't know what contributions would be welcome, or how those contributions should fit into the overall project structure and future plans
[02:21:21] <seb_kuzminsky> micges: is that representing your position accurately?
[02:21:59] <micges> seb_kuzminsky: yes
[02:23:25] <seb_kuzminsky> git is useful because you can implement something and then ask for feedback on the code, but micges is suggesting (as i understand it) that we lack the governance to provide this feedback in a timely/accurate manner
[02:24:09] <seb_kuzminsky> i perceive the problem to be lack of time on the "core developers" part, not lack of bylaws and official processes
[02:25:15] <jepler> reviewing something as big as ja or features is very hard for one person to do
[02:25:24] <seb_kuzminsky> micges: do you have suggestions for how to fix the problem you perceive?
[02:26:08] <seb_kuzminsky> i've spent countless nights trying to get things like ja and ubc into my head
[02:27:08] <ssi> for an outside perspective, it's very hard to break into contributing
[02:27:21] <micges> seb_kuzminsky: not at the moment as it's 3 am here
[02:27:23] <ssi> I've wanted to contribute a lot more than I have, but it's a tough ecosystem to get immersed in
[02:27:52] <ssi> and I think micges's points speak to that to some degree
[02:28:02] <seb_kuzminsky> micges: no rush, input is welcome any time
[02:28:37] <seb_kuzminsky> micges: i agree that we seem to have a problem, though i dont agree with you on exactly what the problem is, and i'm not at all sure how to fix it
[02:28:43] <micges> while working with ja I hit few of problems talked here
[02:29:16] <seb_kuzminsky> ssi: i'd love to hear your input on what the difficulty in getting in to our ecosystem is. is it technical? political? social?
[02:29:39] <ssi> heh a little of all of the above honestly
[02:29:46] <ssi> it's a HUGE technical challenge of course
[02:29:49] <ssi> because it's a very complex project
[02:30:19] <ssi> I'm in the middle of developing a smartserial remote at the moment, and even just that was a herculean task to get spun up on how sserial works and how it interats with hal via hm2
[02:30:25] <seb_kuzminsky> micges: heh, my view of the difficulty of ja is that it did not come with a clearly explained design, so as a part-time slacker reviewer it was/is diffcult to understand what all those commits are trying to do
[02:30:54] <seb_kuzminsky> ssi: so, lack of technical documentation, in that particular situation?
[02:31:01] <ssi> I personally feel like git is a good choice, but tools like github really improve it a lot with respect to contributions and reviewing
[02:31:10] <ssi> but github isn't favored in this group
[02:31:16] <ssi> there's plenty of technical documentation
[02:31:22] <ssi> but it's mostly reference docs
[02:31:28] <ssi> it's very hard to get into it "from scratch"
[02:31:50] <ssi> it's hard to know what docs apply to what you're trying to accomplish
[02:31:51] <micges> seb_kuzminsky: right
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[02:31:54] <seb_kuzminsky> github PRs are very welcome:
http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.7/html/code/contributing-to-linuxcnc.html#_linuxcnc_on_github
[02:32:21] <ssi> ah ok good
[02:32:41] <seb_kuzminsky> ssi: i totally agree our docs (specifically our technical docs) could use a lot of work
[02:32:41] <ssi> when the git move first happened I remember discussion about it, and the outcome at the time seemed like eschewing public repos was the plan
[02:33:10] <ssi> there are a lot of good techincal resources (in terms of people) in here, the forums, and the list
[02:33:31] <ssi> but a lot of times they are unable or unwilling to dumb down to the level of someone trying to get a foothold into the code
[02:33:32] <seb_kuzminsky> ssi: yeah, having people to talk to is good, but it's also good to have docs to read on your own time
[02:34:07] <seb_kuzminsky> "dumbing down" is really hard - the devil's in the details
[02:34:10] <ssi> yes I know
[02:34:21] <ssi> and it's hard to know how far to dumb down
[02:34:28] <ssi> do you need to start with "this is what we call an integer"?
[02:34:29] <seb_kuzminsky> yeah :-/
[02:34:30] <ssi> :)
[02:34:58] <ssi> since it's fresh in my mind, I can speak a bit on the topic of the sserial stuff
[02:35:01] <ssi> it's not really linuxcnc though
[02:35:27] <ssi> but mesa has docs for sserial, but they're written from the perspective of someone writing code for the proc in the hm2 firmware
[02:35:35] <seb_kuzminsky> we have john thornton working on the docs, and the rest of us patching and expanding here and there, but we could always use more people working on that (same as everything else)
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[02:35:43] <ssi> as someone trying to write a remote, it's been challenging trying to figure out how the docs apply to my situation
[02:35:57] <seb_kuzminsky> i bet
[02:35:59] <ssi> we did most of it by reverse engineering what the 7i76 did by protocol dumping the line
[02:36:07] <ssi> and now that I understand it, the docs make sense
[02:36:15] <ssi> but it was just a mess of out of context technical data initially
[02:36:21] <seb_kuzminsky> did you write down the new things you learned, that makes the existing docs make sense?
[02:36:22] <ssi> and linuxcnc's codebase feels similar to me
[02:36:34] <ssi> no, not really, although I did report some doc bugs back to pcw
[02:36:37] <seb_kuzminsky> that would be a very valuable contribution, i bet you know more than just about any of us at this point
[02:37:01] <ssi> I'll roll that around in my head a bit and see if i can come up with something
[02:37:40] <ssi> there have definitely been some surprises that i only discovered empirically
[02:38:21] <seb_kuzminsky> we're all like that
[02:38:49] <seb_kuzminsky> some of us have been at this longer than others, that's all
[02:38:55] <ssi> :)
[02:39:17] <seb_kuzminsky> i started in 2007, and i totally fucked up the first version of the hostmot2 stepgen because i totally misunderstood what the commanded position meant
[02:39:38] <ssi> the last time I was actually in the linuxcnc codebase was writing hal drivers for beaglebone black hardware under mhaberler's guidance before the machinekit stuff forked
[02:40:37] <ssi> but I'll tell you this
[02:41:00] <ssi> I'm a professional software engineer by trade, I've been coding for money for 20 years, and coding for almost 30
[02:41:17] <ssi> and there have been plenty of times trying to work with this stuff that I've thought "I don't think I'm good enough to do this"
[02:41:28] <ssi> I'm sure lots of potential contributors have that problem
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[02:41:55] <seb_kuzminsky> heh, same here... i've been coding for money since my undergrad days in the mid 90's
[02:42:15] <seb_kuzminsky> linuxcnc is one of the most complex code bases i've ever worked with
[02:42:21] <ssi> yes
[02:42:33] <ssi> and I wrote much of the engine that runs cnn.com :P
[02:43:29] <seb_kuzminsky> there are ways i can imagine to make it less complicated, but they're huge efforts, and not guaranteed to succeed
[02:43:46] <ssi> part of the problem is diving back into pure C and embedded code is challenging after working in higher level systems predominantly
[02:44:09] <Tom_itx> is it a bucket of patches that has been handed down from the dark ages?
[02:44:36] <ssi> Tom_itx: what, cnn? no, fortunately we get to throw it all away and start over every couple years :)
[02:44:39] <seb_kuzminsky> i started the liblinuxcnc-ui project with jepler in the hope of simplifying the UI/Task interface, but that's been stalled for over a year now
[02:44:40] <ssi> the CONTENT however is
[02:44:41] <Tom_itx> no, lcnc
[02:45:08] <seb_kuzminsky> Tom_itx: the age of the project is definitely implicated in its complexity
[02:45:20] <ssi> seb_kuzminsky: this sserial work is definitely the most satisfying and exciting work I've done with linuxcnc's codebase
[02:45:35] <seb_kuzminsky> awesome :-)
[02:45:38] <Tom_itx> i know i've been non-actively following it for a good many years
[02:45:40] <seb_kuzminsky> i'm looking forward to seeing it :-)
[02:46:07] <ssi> it's someone else's project, but I'm happy to be a part of it
[02:46:21] <ssi> it's a servo drive somewhat like the 8i20, sserial command and feedback
[02:46:25] <ssi> (among other options)
[02:46:44] <ssi> but it ought to be a good position mode drive for linuxcnc, which I hope will drastically simplify cabling complexity
[02:46:57] <seb_kuzminsky> i'm just some guy, but my opinion is this: linuxcnc is just the bunch of us, working together to scratch our own itches and occasionally make the shared project better/simpler/cleaner, and the project progresses to the extent that we work to make it better, individually and together
[02:47:10] <ssi> seb_kuzminsky: I love that attitude
[02:47:15] <ssi> I don't always feel that attitude coming from the group :)
[02:47:24] <Tom_itx> yeah
[02:47:32] <jepler> yeah we fail at it sometimes
[02:51:10] <ssi> the contributing to doc is really good btw
[02:51:16] <ssi> espceially the notes on effectively using git
[02:51:20] <ssi> that's something I don't know well enough
[02:51:29] <ssi> stuff like using rebase to fix up the commit history
[02:51:43] <ssi> I very much fall into the xkcd camp with git
[02:51:58] <ssi> http://www.xkcd.com/1597/
[02:52:19] <ssi> I like to think I'm smart enough to use git effectively, but it often humbles me :)
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[11:49:19] -wilhelm.freenode.net:#linuxcnc-devel- [freenode-info] help freenode weed out clonebots -- please register your IRC nick and auto-identify:
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[12:58:46] <JT-Mobile> Yea the new forum is up and running
[12:59:40] <JT-Mobile> It seems to be easier to read on my phone now
[13:03:42] <JT-Mobile> I'll remove that message about the forum going to read mode in a bit when we get back to the house
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[14:14:27] <jepler> oh on the old site? thanks
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[14:18:42] <jepler> .. I think I managed to do it myself
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[16:08:20] <jthornton> zlog
[16:08:20] <zlog> jthornton: Log stored at
http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~tom-itx/irc/logs/%23linuxcnc-devel/2015-11-08.html
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[16:20:44] <jthornton> I created a test account but can't log into the forum using that user name and password
[16:20:59] <jepler> uh oh
[16:21:15] <jepler> I had created several test accounts the first time but didn't try it yesterday
[16:21:18] <jepler> let me look into it
[16:21:23] <jthornton> ok
[16:21:36] <jthornton> I don't see a place to register on the forum either
[16:22:08] <jepler> then how did you create a test account?
[16:22:30] <jthornton> on the main page
[16:22:39] <jthornton> lower left
[16:22:47] <jepler> you mean on www.linuxcnc.org ?
[16:23:06] <jthornton> yes
[16:23:07] <jepler> www.linuxcnc.org and forum.linuxcnc.org accounts are not connected
[16:23:13] <jepler> can you remove that login box please?
[16:23:58] <jthornton> ok
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[16:33:14] <jthornton> got rid of the register button... looking for the login switch
[16:33:16] <jepler> jthornton: there should be a "create an accont" button now
[16:33:27] <jepler> on flo
[16:33:57] <seb_kuzminsky> omg omg i just got a pull request for the new website
[16:34:06] <jepler> testing it now
[16:34:50] <jepler> hm it says it has to be approved but that option is turned off
[16:35:10] <jthornton> yep I see create account
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[16:36:28] <jepler> oh I failed to read the screen, it's a "click link to finish registration"
[16:38:24] <jepler> oh I think I need to put the captcha back for new users when they post
[16:39:26] <jepler> I can't post at all :-/
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[16:40:33] <jthornton> I can't log into the forum now
[16:44:19] <jepler> no trouble here
[16:48:18] <seb_kuzminsky> i'm falling in love with git all over again
[16:48:50] <jepler> jthornton: I am not having any trouble logging in, several accounts I have created all work fine
[16:49:02] <jepler> on forum.linuxcnc.org
[16:50:12] <jthornton> ah I was using the wrong password and it just goes back to the log in so I was confused
[16:50:37] <jepler> I did notice that too
[16:53:38] <jepler> OK, captcha working for new users, captcha on first 3 posts
[16:53:47] <jthornton> great
[16:56:10] <jepler> no idea about showing a message when you give a bad password
[16:56:16] <jepler> that's so obvious I don't know why it doesn't happen :-/
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[17:00:14] <jthornton> I'll see if I can find anything out about that
[17:01:30] <jepler> the community builder login module tells you if your password is wrong
[17:02:03] <jepler> but then I need to get rid of the forum login section
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[17:02:16] <jepler> I don't really like how the CB login looks, either
[17:02:59] <jthornton> be back in a bit
[17:03:56] <andypugh> I have had a private email from a user who can no-longer log in. (from 7 hours ago). But he is one who I deleted and resinstated as he couldn’t unsubscribe from forum new-post notifications, and he might be a special case
[17:18:32] <jepler> andypugh: should you be an administrator on forum.linuxcnc.org ?
[17:18:40] <jepler> some user permissions seem to have been lost
[17:19:06] <jepler> and I'll repeat what I said for jthornton, the accounts on www.linuxcnc.org and forum.linuxcnc.org are disconnected; the ones on the forum are a snapshot from when I started the migration
[17:21:40] <andypugh> I am a moderator of the forum and an administrator on the main site. I am not sure how the two things interact.
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[17:27:36] <jepler> OK
[17:27:49] <jepler> I *think* I just made all administrators of the main site into administrators on the forum
[17:28:19] <jepler> andypugh: so you should now have administrator permission on forum.linuxcnc.org
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[17:30:57] <andypugh> OK, I seem to have the stuff I had before.
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[17:57:38] <andypugh> Hmm, interesting. I just got a new user avatar approval message. Normally I have been approving them from the left-hand side of the main linuxcnc.org page, if it says more that 5 images to approve, then there is one to approve. (it always shows 5 images and 17 user-reports).
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[17:58:43] <andypugh> Now I see only 5, so no new ones, unless there is another interface I haven’t spotted.
[18:22:56] <jepler> I don't know what that is. Is it something on forum.linuxcnc.org?
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[18:32:11] <jepler> Ok, I found that when I enabled "cb workflows" then a thing showed up about approving profile images on flo
[18:32:20] <jepler> but now that I approved them, it seems to have disappeared again !?
[18:35:38] <jepler> ok, yes, it'll appear and disappear from the page, and I guess only appear for administrators?
[18:36:04] <jepler> if only I knew how this worked... I'm like a bull in a china shop.
[18:41:21] <jepler> mozmck: is the only effect of "report to moderator" that e-mail that is sent that you mentioned?
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[18:52:16] <andypugh> OK, I see it now.
[18:52:37] <andypugh> New place, and confusing not to have 5 “zombie” images to approve :-)
[18:55:16] <JT-Shop> do I need to change the link
http://linuxcnc.org/index.php/english/forum on the old main page to forum.linuxcnc.org
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[19:20:05] <jepler> jthornton: sure. you can change it to
https://forum.linuxcnc.org/forum/index
[19:20:09] <jepler> it's currently redirected...
[19:20:26] <jepler> by .htaccess
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[21:45:27] <skunksleep> jepler: I am able to login. No issues so far. Great work!
[21:48:33] <andypugh> Did we get anything useful out of the “Summer of Code” ?
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[21:50:18] <seb_kuzminsky> andypugh: nope
[21:50:19] <skunksleep> I was an admin. I used the power pretty infrequently though
[21:50:28] <seb_kuzminsky> http://linuxcnc.org/new/
[21:51:04] <andypugh> seb_kuzminsky: We had some enquiries, did they start and fail, or just not start
[21:51:32] <seb_kuzminsky> all the links to wlo things that are not generated html (such as dists/, iso images, etc) will be broken until this new site lives at /
[21:51:54] <andypugh> seb_kuzminsky: The new layout is cleaner and moderner, but I miss the left-margin stuff.
[21:52:00] <seb_kuzminsky> andypugh: there were two students who spoke with us. one said "i'll do the realtime kernel!" and then was never heard from again
[21:52:47] <seb_kuzminsky> the other asked lots of questions, which cmorley answered, then came back a few days later and asked pretty much the same stuff again, a couple of times
[21:53:37] <seb_kuzminsky> he never showed any sign of having read the code he was asking about, and after missing a couple of early deadlines he was kicked out by the folks at CAx that were trying to help him
[21:53:58] <andypugh> I wonder if it is worth adding “as the wiki is community-maintained it contains lots of dupicated, outdated and just plain wrong content” ?
[21:54:13] <seb_kuzminsky> hmm, the current left margin has the news and the forum login
[21:54:13] <jepler> seb_kuzminsky: on new wlo, any idea how to get an external link into the navbar?
[21:54:44] <seb_kuzminsky> jepler: you add it in _includes/header.html
[21:55:01] <andypugh> seb_kuzminsky: ?
[21:55:32] <seb_kuzminsky> andypugh: sure, submit a PR,
https://github.com/SebKuzminsky/wlo
[21:56:18] <andypugh> No, I meant, are you talking about the old left margin or a new left margin that I can’t see?
[21:57:01] <JT-Shop> http://linuxcnc.org/new/ is much cleaner
[21:57:22] <seb_kuzminsky> andypugh: i was talking about the left margin on the old (current) site, which as you point out is missing from the new (proposed) site
[21:58:00] <malcom2073> JT-Shop: Looks much more post-2000
[21:58:15] <JT-Shop> the current releases are runningtoghetherabit
[21:58:23] <seb_kuzminsky> JT-Shop: yeah, agreed, though it probably looks like a website made by a programmer who doesn't know html css ;-)
[21:58:31] <seb_kuzminsky> JT-Shop: hmm, yeah i see what you mean
[21:58:47] <seb_kuzminsky> i guess CSS is the way to fix that somehow
[21:59:02] <andypugh> I like the clean-ness. If the search could be at the top, for example (which is a more common place anyway) then I reckon I could get used to not having a left margin
[21:59:28] <c_morley> seb_kuzminsky: actually we did get some work done for stepconf by "summer of code" I just haven't added it yet. But the process of SOC needs to be tweeked.
[21:59:29] <seb_kuzminsky> oh! heh, i didn't even know the old (current) site had a search
[21:59:51] <seb_kuzminsky> c_morley: wow! that's news to me, great
[22:00:28] <andypugh> seb_kuzminsky: It’s actually a very effective search
[22:00:36] <c_morley> Thats part of the problem I guess - poor guy had no idea who to talk to or what was expected
[22:01:18] <c_morley> ttyl
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[22:07:28] <JT-Shop> good thing I know css and html :)
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[22:08:39] <Roguish> hey. looks good. a simple comment? the version numbers are really close. a bit more space between would read much easier.
[22:09:50] <Roguish> otherwise. OUTSTANDING
[22:11:00] <JT-Shop> <JT-Shop> the current releases are runningtoghetherabit
[22:12:00] <seb_kuzminsky> JT-Shop: i would super love your help with the layout and content
[22:12:21] <JT-Shop> where is it?
[22:16:27] <jepler> seb_kuzminsky: I just gave you another random stuff pull request, including spacing the version numbers out more
[22:17:25] <andypugh> JT-Shop: I was wondering what “running to get the rabbit” meant !
[22:17:38] <skunksleep> Why do we have 2 releases shown?
[22:19:06] <jepler> skunksleep: because 2.6.x still gets stable updates I suppose
[22:20:17] <skunksleep> I guess.
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[22:27:21] <skunksleep> Ooh. Rob pushed some fixes for uvw blending
[22:28:35] <JT-Shop> andypugh, I'm still wondering
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[22:30:54] <skunksleep> Heh
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[23:11:12] <JT-Shop> seb_kuzminsky, did you do that page from scratch?
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[23:15:01] <seb_kuzminsky> JT-Shop: no, i cheated and used jekyll:
https://jekyllrb.com/
[23:15:53] <seb_kuzminsky> JT-Shop: the website is all static html, generated from markdown "source code" managed in git:
https://github.com/SebKuzminsky/wlo
[23:16:33] <JT-Shop> static html is better
[23:17:06] <JT-Shop> I'll whop something up
[23:17:43] <JT-Shop> whoop
[23:18:07] <JT-Shop> and that's why you don't write html when you have had a glass of cab
[23:23:06] <seb_kuzminsky> woo!
[23:24:02] <seb_kuzminsky> i'll add a README with some links to docs & some info on how to mess with it
[23:24:22] <seb_kuzminsky> i'm making a vm to monitor the github repo and build & upload to wlo now...
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[23:51:31] <seb_kuzminsky> it's up
[23:51:48] <seb_kuzminsky> anything pushed to that github repo shows up at wlo/new within a minute
[23:52:00] <seb_kuzminsky> i should figure out how to give y'all push access to that repo
[23:52:05] <seb_kuzminsky> but first: happy hour
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