Back
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[00:34:19] <skunkworks> Tom_itx: happy testing!
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[01:16:13] <Tom_itx> switching from manual control to MDI tabs causes the last command to re'execute
[01:16:26] <Tom_itx> in MDI i did a S500M3
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[01:16:40] <Tom_itx> in Manual control, i turned the spindle off with my pendant
[01:16:53] <Tom_itx> switching back to MDI caused the spindle to turn on again
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[01:19:21] <Tom_itx> must be something in my pendant logic
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[03:01:37] <seb_kuzminsky> why nontrivial kinematics are important:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQR0If6miRY
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[03:06:53] <pcw_home> Thats neat. I wonder if it uses a vision system
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[03:22:42] <cradek> wow that's cool
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[03:29:34] <cradek> if you didn't have an infinite amount of money, you might use a rope bridge to accomplish the same thing
[03:30:06] <cradek> wonder what the traditional technology was
[03:31:01] <Tom_itx> deadliest catch use those cages full of buoys to make a floating raft with ropes between the 2 ships
[03:31:03] <skunksleep> Jumping
[03:31:26] <Tom_itx> poor sob sitting on top of the crab nets in the middle...
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[03:52:24] <cradek> awesome, a dozen committers on -pre7. we're growing.
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[04:31:54] <seb_kuzminsky> heh, you're right, though most of the names on that list are the usual suspects
[04:32:26] <seb_kuzminsky> Benjamin Brockhaus probably doesn't even know he's contributed, i merged the Huanyang VFD driver he curated on github
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[04:33:00] <seb_kuzminsky> i sent him a private mail letting him know and thanking him, but he hasn't replied. might be an abandoned email address...
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[05:50:06] <kwallace> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xe5JDyljQBI
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[10:26:31] <REEEN> hello guys I have some weird problem here is anyone online ?
[10:27:10] <REEEN> i'm currently setting up a closed loop spindle control
[10:27:20] <REEEN> here is an example of my problem:
[10:28:12] <REEEN> pid command is 10 pid output is 5 and feedback is also 5 that is wrong....
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[13:54:25] <pcw_home> Might be correct depending on PID settings (for P = 1 that would be correct)
[13:56:46] <pcw_home> that is with just P=1, PID output would be 1*(command-feedback) = 5 in your case
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[14:12:05] <cradek> fwiw, I don't believe in closed loop spindle control being useful
[14:13:58] <fenn> vfd's have hall sensors which make them more or less closed loop; if someone is controlling a DC spindle they might need it
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[14:25:57] <pcw_home> I think it mainly makes people happier with their spindle speed displays
[14:27:29] <arrowbook> is the pid or s-curve being used in the update_freq function of stepgen.c,,or they are both used
[14:30:08] <cradek> fenn: specifically I meant with pid in hal. I'm definitely in favor of motor drives maintaining speed.
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[14:30:40] <jepler> arrowbook: stepgen can limit acceleration, giving a trapezoidal velocity profile. it has an internal feedback loop similar to pid, too, but that has no tunable parameters.
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[14:41:08] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03Chris Radek 052.6 5920630 06linuxcnc 10src/emc/usr_intf/touchy/mdi.py touchy: G64 now takes optional Q * 14http://git.linuxcnc.org/?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commitdiff;h=5920630
[14:41:08] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03Chris Radek 052.7 b0750ee 06linuxcnc Merge branch '2.6' into 2.7 * 14http://git.linuxcnc.org/?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commitdiff;h=b0750ee
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[16:12:58] <cradek> pcw_home:
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=VIA-Embedded-New-PC
[16:15:03] <jepler> boo, no linux video support
[16:15:21] <jepler> I was unlucky enough to have a system with VIA Chrome video chipset 10 years ago, and support was bad then too.
[16:17:27] <cradek> argh
[16:21:11] <jepler> most likely it runs without any acceleration, which would be fine for touchy but not great for axis
[16:26:15] <jepler> dpkg-deb: building package `linux-image-4.1.0-1-rt-amd64' in `../linux-image-4.1.0-1-rt-amd64_4.1.3-1.1_amd64.deb'.
[16:26:28] <jepler> looks like the kernel package from debian testing will build on debian stable (jessie)
[16:31:30] <skunkworks> jessie livecd!
[16:31:52] <skunkworks> I have not tried jessie yet
[16:35:53] <pcw_home> Might be interesting to try the Via but not at $539
[16:35:55] <pcw_home> This is more my price range:
[16:35:56] <pcw_home> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856501007
[16:41:09] <jepler> hm, now I'm wondering if you can do realtime hostmot2 + regular networking all over one gigabit interface. I bet none of the cheap ethernet switches honors QoS though.
[16:42:09] <jepler> the driver and the hostmot2 card would have to set the "low latency" flag in the ip header, which they don't do now afaik
[16:43:34] <jepler> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differentiated_services#Expedited_Forwarding_.28EF.29_PHB
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[16:45:05] <skunkworks> pcw_home, does wheezy run on it?
[16:45:47] <jepler> the cheap gigabit port I bought claims: Supports IEEE 802.1p QoS (4 Queues, Strict Mode)
[16:45:50] <jepler> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_P802.1p
[16:46:28] <pcw_home> I was just thinking about that(getting along with regular traffic) ,
[16:46:30] <pcw_home> the low latency flag is probably pretty easy to add
[16:47:15] <pcw_home> I doubt wheezy will run without a newer kernel (it would not run on the Stream mini)
[16:47:27] <pcw_home> (run on the Liva)
[16:47:32] <skunkworks> pcw_home, should a IEEE-1284 cable work?
[16:47:39] <pcw_home> yes
[16:47:48] <skunkworks> thanks
[16:48:41] <skunkworks> dad just felt the backlash on the cincinati lathe and there doesn't seem to be any... He is thinking of keeping it again..
[16:50:24] <skunkworks> cradek, I think I had changed the G64 parameters - I bet that was why I wasn't getting the small violation.
[16:50:31] <jepler> after a few minutes googling I'm not sure how to set the ethernet PCP field
[16:50:39] <jepler> on linux
[16:50:58] <skunkworks> anyone programmed nfc tags in linux?
[16:51:01] <jepler> oh maybe it's easy
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/13764786/setting-cos-pcp-802-1p-in-ethernet-frame
[17:04:39] <pcw_home> seems like bestt case you would still add a full packet latency due to
[17:04:41] <pcw_home> head of line queuing (but thats only ~12 usec for a 1500 byte packet)
[17:04:42] <jepler> hm have to set up 802.1Q "virtual local area networking" before there's a PCP field to fill -- ethernet frames get an additional 2-byte header
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[17:11:05] <jepler> it boots and so far I also get good latency on my laptop, 14.3us max in 1 minute
[17:15:52] <pcw_home> the debian preempt-rt kernel?
[17:17:30] <seb_kuzminsky> nice!
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[17:19:08] <jepler> pcw_home: yes
[17:20:37] <skunkworks> wow - that is rtai type numbers
[17:20:50] <skunkworks> but I guess 1 minute isn't really long enough
[17:21:30] <pcw_home> My (ebay test) laptop works fine with Preempt RT as long as you dont change from line to battery power or vice versa
[17:21:33] <jepler> only problem I've spotted so far is that the -headers package is uninstallable due to dependencies not in debian jessie
[17:22:09] <jepler> 31.5us over 12 minutes, including changing from AC to battery and back
[17:23:37] <pcw_home> Good enough for Jazz ^H^H^H^H Ethernet
[17:23:40] <mozmck> that's more impressive
[17:25:15] <pcw_home> WIFI working?
[17:25:26] <jepler> pcw_home: yep
[17:26:10] <pcw_home> (I noticed that Broadcom WIFI causes major latencies at least on the Stream mini)
[17:26:28] <pcw_home> Broadcom is a PITA anyway so best avoided
[17:27:40] <pcw_home> My general impression is that modern (and fast) systems tend to work well with Preempt-RT
[17:36:00] <skunkworks> you are right - that cable worked :)
[17:39:20] <pcw_home> IEEE1284 cables have lower crosstalk and better ground integrity than normal parallel port cables or flat cables
[17:39:56] <pcw_home> (they have a shield wire per signal)
[17:41:15] <skunkworks> ciik
[17:41:17] <skunkworks> cool
[17:42:56] <jepler> 51us latency, but now I'm rebuilding the kernel package at the same time
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[17:47:04] <pcw_home> something building kernels does at the very end seems to cause major latencies
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[17:51:26] <jepler> I'll make sure and run the latency test to the bitter end, then
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[18:19:51] <jepler> hmph, it's topped 100us latency
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[18:48:21] <cradek> I don't understand why nondevelopers want to run RIP builds
[18:48:46] <cradek> we work hard to make good packages so they don't have to
[18:51:24] <Tom_itx> what causes following errors on a stepper system?
[18:52:04] <Tom_itx> and you do a fine job of it cradek
[18:52:33] <cradek> oh look he's right here, haha
[18:53:16] <Tom_itx> the sherline is rigid tapping now..
[18:54:37] <cradek> Tom_itx: you made two separate threads with your reply. please pick the most appropriate list when you reply. (this might be your mailreader doing a stupid thing without telling you)
[18:55:11] <Tom_itx> my reply to what?
[18:55:26] <cradek> the release post
[18:55:29] <pcw_home> wrong tom
[18:55:34] <Tom_itx> i don't get on the mail list
[18:55:34] <cradek> oh
[18:55:35] <Tom_itx> :D
[18:55:45] <cradek> we all need globally-unique identifiers
[18:55:55] <cradek> mine is 6a2f7d9a-6365-424c-a95e-f916d3927a77
[18:55:55] <Tom_itx> some like to hide behind them
[18:56:02] <cradek> run uuidgen to make your own
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[18:56:59] <Tom_itx> i probably had that scoulding coming anyway...
[18:57:38] <pcw_home> the linuxcnc step generator is a simple velocity mode servo so followings error are possible
[18:57:58] <pcw_home> following errors
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[18:58:51] <Tom_itx> i'll have to do some more testing.. i wasn't doing anything crazy with it
[18:58:56] <Tom_itx> only got it once or twice
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[19:00:52] <pcw_home> if your limits are really tight you can get it or if you use the built-in driver
[19:00:54] <pcw_home> position mode stepgen and you have significant jitter you can get it also
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[19:01:47] <Tom_itx> it could have been the Z axis since it's sitting on the table and not in it's enclosure with the counterweight attached
[19:02:39] <pcw_home> If you use the drivers position mode you need to set the stepgen maxaccel
[19:02:40] <pcw_home> to about 20% more than the axis maxaccel
[19:03:06] <Tom_itx> i think it is
[19:03:22] <Tom_itx> but i set it a long time ago so i'll have to check again
[19:04:23] <pcw_home> Yeah a headroom problem can cause this also (like cannot get to maxvel with current step/dir timings)
[19:05:33] <pcw_home> It would be nice if linuxcnc remember that max ferror for these cases (I know you can do this is HAL)
[19:05:46] <pcw_home> remembered the
[19:08:49] <pcw_home> the drivers hardware stepgen control logic _will_ go crazy and generate FEs
[19:08:50] <pcw_home> if you have significant jitter and you dont bound the stepgens maxaccel
[19:08:52] <pcw_home> This is why I moved to PID run stepgens for Ethernet, much better behaviour
[19:08:53] <pcw_home> when there is significant jitter
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[19:49:31] <jepler> pcw_home: with hostmot2 stepgens and pid, is tuning still necessary or is there a formulaic way to determine the pid gains?
[19:56:27] <jepler> (that sound is me thinking that the appropriate feedback still belongs inside the hostmot2 driver, even if it's more complex than a copy of the simple feedback algorithm from our software stepgen)
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[20:43:44] <PCW> I dont have a formulaic way except from experience:
[20:43:45] <PCW> FF1 = 1
[20:43:47] <PCW> P ~= servo thread frequency
[20:43:49] <PCW> FF2 ~= 0.00012 to 0.00030 depending on time between read (well DPLL latch) and write
[20:43:50] <PCW> (An approximate guess value of .0002 is probably OK unless you want <100 u inch errors at 6000 IPM )
[20:44:35] <PCW> (in which case you need to tune)
[20:47:47] <PCW> Error could be even smaller except that FF2 is late by one sample
[20:47:48] <PCW> (this is why the TP should output the derivatives, with pipeline delays
[20:47:50] <PCW> fixed rather than generate them with DDT at the HAL level)
[20:50:38] <PCW> That is ideally (IMHO) the TP should give HAL/hardware interpolators the current waypoint and the derivatives to get to the next...
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[21:11:46] <jthornton> now to figure out how to drop .3rtapi and the rest of the extensions from the link text for the man pages
[21:20:20] <PCW> FF2 may also depend on the servo period
[21:23:05] <seb_kuzminsky> cradek: Tom Easterday said "I did have a component that was causing the build to fail early but fixed that", i take that to mean he's got a custom component that he's pushing along
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[21:26:57] <jepler> jthornton: in shell you can take off a known suffix this way
[21:26:57] <jepler> $ X=foo.bar; echo $X; echo ${X%.bar}
[21:26:57] <jepler> foo.bar
[21:26:57] <jepler> foo
[21:27:17] <jepler> I think make is invoking the shell in your case, so doubling the $ may be necessary
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[21:28:01] <jepler> yuck, this fully built rt kernel generated 1.1GB of packages
[21:28:09] <jepler> that'll be slow to upload to the internet
[21:31:11] <jepler> well, tomorrow, I'll have some preempt-rt kernel packages for anyone with a jessie amd64 machine to try out
[21:31:46] <JT-Shop> jepler, can you use a wildcard for .bar?
[21:32:46] <jepler> looks like it
[21:32:46] <jepler> $ X=foo.bar.baz; echo $X; echo ${X%.*}
[21:33:25] <JT-Shop> thanks
[21:33:56] <seb_kuzminsky> i would have used basename for that, but the bash string manipulation seems better
[21:34:24] <seb_kuzminsky> $ X=foo.bar; basename foo .bar
[21:34:29] <seb_kuzminsky> foo
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[21:44:04] <jepler> and happily it's a part of posix sh so it's portable
http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/utilities/xcu_chap02.html#tag_02_06_02
[21:44:15] <jepler> ${parameter%word}
[21:44:17] <jepler> Remove Smallest Suffix Pattern. The word shall be expanded to produce a pattern. The parameter expansion shall then result in parameter, with the smallest portion of the suffix matched by the pattern deleted.
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[21:50:22] <mozmck> jepler: do you have debug turned on in the kernel? that makes *much* larger packages
[21:53:38] <jepler> mozmck: yes. I didn't change anything about the kernel package, just rebuilt the one from debian testing for debian stable.
[21:54:31] <jepler> (so there's a vanilla kernel package in there too)
[21:54:54] <mozmck> If you use the debian kernel build scripts I think it turns off debug. Otherwise you have to edit the config.
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[22:11:36] * jepler finishes his laptop's latency-test at 112us latency over 5 hours
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[22:38:13] <jepler> the only remaining problem is that the debian jessie version of the nvidia proprietary kernel module is not compatible with kernel 4.1
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[23:05:30] <PCW> I think all versions or Preempt-RT Ive built have complained about nvidia
[23:06:19] <jepler> I haven't tried to use them together lately
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[23:20:40] <jepler> whee, nvidia works and no huge latency spike from starting an opengl application using nvidia acceleration (glxgears, anyway)
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