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[02:49:22] <mozmck> seb_kuzminsky: you around? The Integrator Manual for 2.7 has HALTCL Files as chapter 7 under Configuration, but all the other HAL reference is in chapter 10
[02:51:38] <mozmck> HALTCL does not seem to be mentioned in the HAL Manual either
[02:52:03] <mozmck> This is the PDF docs
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[03:22:47] <cradek> http://timeguy.com/cradek-files/emc/edgelit-nine.jpg
[03:23:54] <cradek> attempting to make some of the old style of displays that shine a light into the edge of stacked pieces of glass
[03:24:12] <cradek> it's an 11 year old project
[03:24:21] <cradek> in 2004 I tried to use plastic - it doesn't work very well
[03:24:40] <cradek> lately I've discovered you can machine glass without too much trouble
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[03:39:17] <skunksleep> zlog
[03:39:17] <zlog> skunksleep: Log stored at
http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~tom-itx/irc/logs/%23linuxcnc-devel/2015-05-13.html
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[04:13:29] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03Sebastian Kuzminsky 052.6 ebc9eb6 06linuxcnc 10docs/src/gcode/gcode.txt docs: fix a minor formatting mistake in the gcode docs * 14http://git.linuxcnc.org/?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commitdiff;h=ebc9eb6
[04:14:38] <seb_kuzminsky> that looks great, cradek
[04:15:47] <seb_kuzminsky> although something's wrong, that's clearly a 6
[04:16:25] <cradek> I see what you mean
[04:17:46] <seb_kuzminsky> mozmck: yes, i see that you're right
[04:17:50] <seb_kuzminsky> 2.6 has the same problem
[04:17:57] <cradek> which?
[04:18:13] <cradek> oh I see
[04:18:21] <seb_kuzminsky> haltcl docs are not well integrated into either the Integrator manual or the HAL manual
[04:18:24] <seb_kuzminsky> yeah
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[04:25:28] <seb_kuzminsky> i bet it's not the only inconsistency in our docs layout
[04:25:44] <seb_kuzminsky> i set out to clean it up a bit for 2.7, but ran out of steam after the Getting Started guide
[04:26:00] <seb_kuzminsky> maybe we can do one section per release...
[04:26:42] <seb_kuzminsky> Oh, also i should evaluate the po4a experiment that francis and i did last year and see if we should propose switching our docs-translations to that
[04:29:53] <seb_kuzminsky> here's mozmck's thing:
https://sourceforge.net/p/emc/feature-requests/132/
[04:31:42] <seb_kuzminsky> and here's andypugh's thing:
https://sourceforge.net/p/emc/feature-requests/133/
[04:31:56] <seb_kuzminsky> i'm off to make deviled eggs for tomorrow's potluck, good night folks
[04:39:04] <cradek> g'night
[04:39:09] <cradek> mmm deviled eggs
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[04:58:32] <linuxcnc-build_> build #2531 of 4007.deb-precise-i386 is complete: Failure [4failed apt-get-update shell_1] Build details are at
http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/buildbot/builders/4007.deb-precise-i386/builds/2531 blamelist: Sebastian Kuzminsky <seb@highlab.com>
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[05:18:35] <seb_kuzminsky> dafuq
[05:21:28] <seb_kuzminsky> oh, it's the "too many packages for apt" segfault again, argh
[05:21:54] <seb_kuzminsky> well, our buildslaves don't need ubuntu's "multiverse" component
[05:22:49] <seb_kuzminsky> linuxcnc-build_: force build --branch=2.6 0000.checkin
[05:22:51] <linuxcnc-build_> build forced [ETA 48m21s]
[05:22:51] <linuxcnc-build_> I'll give a shout when the build finishes
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[06:31:11] <linuxcnc-build_> Hey! build 0000.checkin #3139 is complete: Success [3build successful]
[06:31:11] <linuxcnc-build_> Build details are at
http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/buildbot/builders/0000.checkin/builds/3139
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[12:12:00] <jthornton> a huge problem with the pdf docs is what to put in each one. I'm still in favor of a single pdf document that mirrors the html docs...
[12:12:40] <Tom_itx> would make more sense if you're used to the html already
[12:13:26] <jthornton> the biggest problem is the hal manual, it should not even exist. All that content should be in the integrators manual
[12:14:30] <jthornton> at first I liked the pdf's but now prefer the html docs mainly because the pdf docs look terrible and are hard to read on debian
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[12:15:54] <jthornton> bbl
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[12:37:18] <JT-Shop> only 2 pdfs make sense to me Getting Started Guide and LinuxCNC Manual
[12:37:51] <JT-Shop> I need to try and get git installed in the debian machine in the cave
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[13:00:30] <mozmck> JT-Shop: what about the User Manual? Would that go in Getting Started?
[13:01:35] <mozmck> I like the pdfs, because I'd rather not have to go to the web and click through links to read the documentation.
[13:03:35] <jepler> nothing but inertia stops us from putting the html docs in the packages, rather than the pdf docs
[13:03:54] <jepler> yes you'd be in your web browser but no you wouldn't be waiting for a website because it would be local to your machine
[13:06:07] <JT-Shop> mozmck, I'd think the user manual would be part of the LinuxCNC Manual
[13:06:24] <JT-Shop> jepler, how would that be done?
[13:07:01] <JT-Shop> that would mean unlimited links throughout the docs if we didn't have any pdfs
[13:07:10] <mozmck> Seems to me it would be nice to have a separate user manual then as we currently do, for people who are just using linuxcnc and not setting it up.
[13:07:54] <mozmck> jepler: I'll have to look at the html docs again - I have generally preferred the pdf docs for the look and layout, and easier searching.
[13:07:56] <JT-Shop> that's what we have now but it has limitations, no links between pdfs for one and second where did I see that info at?
[13:08:51] <JT-Shop> the pdf can have sections like we have now and one being the User section
[13:08:51] <mozmck> hmm, no links between pdfs is a minus.
[13:09:01] <mozmck> Yes.
[13:09:25] <JT-Shop> yea, I think that is why in the past we had the same info in both the user and the integrators and hal manuals
[13:09:57] <jepler> JT-Shop: mostly changing stuff in debian/ starting by changing --enable-build-documentation=pdf to --enable-build-documentation=html and modifying the install: lines to copy/move html files as appropriate instead of pdf files
[13:10:14] <jepler> probably a detour to drop some packages from debian/control.in that are only required to build pdfs
[13:10:42] <JT-Shop> the only merit I see in having a Getting Started Guide pdf is newbees could download that small pdf to get started getting LinuxCNC
[13:10:45] <jepler> one thing you have in pdf documentatation and not in html is that you can search the whole volume for something, not just the individual chapter
[13:11:02] <JT-Shop> yea, that is a big plus
[13:11:06] <mozmck> It would be nice if there were links in the pdfs. Maybe something like wiki where any time you mention - say halcmd, halcmd would be a link to the section on halcmd.
[13:11:33] <JT-Shop> that can be done if we have a LinuxCNC Manual and everything is in it
[13:11:40] <mozmck> yes
[13:12:20] <JT-Shop> once you have LinuxCNC installed then you have the pdf manual and possibly the html as well
[13:12:24] <JT-Shop> that would be nice
[13:13:40] <JT-Shop> pdf viewer 0.1.8 is terrible IMHO you can't smoothly scroll the pages
[13:14:23] <jepler> linux pdf viewers have been getting worse for years, unfortunately.
[13:14:52] <JT-Shop> yea, back in Ubuntu 8.04 the viewer was nice
[13:14:57] <mozmck> I find evince in *buntu/mint 14.04 to be pretty nice.
[13:15:33] <mozmck> wheezy is years behind - one problem with debian stable imho
[13:15:35] <JT-Shop> I wonder how I can change the default pdf viewer to evince
[13:15:47] <jepler> evince used to be the least worst, but (at least in debian jessie) they've screwed it up.
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[13:16:25] <jepler> it draws its own decorations, which created the bug that if you try to click a button but slightly miss, it (un)maximizes the window
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[13:16:51] <mozmck> One thing they've done is remove a lot of the configurability it used to have - you can thank the GNOME guys for that again.
[13:17:06] <jepler> and they broke the keystrokes I'd memorized and used for years to display a PDF just like I wanted to (two facing pages, fit height, scroll by pages) so now I have to click to do that
[13:17:22] <JT-Shop> yuck
[13:17:37] <mozmck> I bet the problems in Jessie are related to the GNOME removal of features.
[13:18:12] <archivist> should I do an html search for the docs
[13:18:44] <JT-Shop> how would that work?
[13:19:11] <mozmck> archivist: you mean one that doesn't need the web?
[13:19:29] <archivist> mozmck, can be done
[13:20:16] <mozmck> I'm sure it can - I don't know much about it. I presume there are existing utilities for that?
[13:20:27] <JT-Shop> where directory are the installed pdf docs in?
[13:20:45] <archivist> I hate pdfs by the way :)
[13:23:00] <JT-Shop> where/which
[13:24:55] <JT-Shop> found them
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[13:25:59] <JT-Shop> Atril Document Viewer seems to work well
[13:26:10] <JT-Shop> I'm using the Mate desktop
[13:26:26] <mozmck> Ah, it's probably a fork of an older Evince then.
[13:26:51] <JT-Shop> looks as good as the older Ubuntu viewers
[13:27:54] <JT-Shop> the huge advantage to the html docs is the man pages
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[13:29:35] <mozmck> It would help if the main page of contents was not so ugly (imo :-) )
[13:31:09] <JT-Shop> which one?
[13:31:09] <mozmck> The pages need links to last page | contents | next page
[13:31:18] <mozmck> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/2.7/html/
[13:31:39] <JT-Shop> we had that and I think it got broken
[13:31:55] <mozmck> ah, I see.
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[13:32:49] <JT-Shop> the contents probably needs a style sheet link
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[13:33:47] <mozmck> That might help, and Maybe have the sections be links to smaller contents pages so the main page is not so long.
[13:34:49] <JT-Shop> actually now that I think about it having the getting started in the "manual" is a good idea as you only have links to the chapters so having a separate getting started guide is not a update problem
[13:36:33] <JT-Shop> bbl off to the industrial park
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[13:50:31] <seb_kuzminsky> i agree it's a problem that the html docs & pdf docs have different contents/layout
[13:51:40] <seb_kuzminsky> i fixed it in the Getting Started document in 2.7, both the html and pdf build from the exact same top-level source file, so they have (and will continue to have) the same contents
[13:52:06] <mozmck> how is the layout of the pdf and html defined?
[13:52:35] <seb_kuzminsky> it'd be a good thing if we did the same to the rest of the top-level documents (the Users', Integrators', and Developer's Manuals)
[13:53:09] <seb_kuzminsky> mozmck:
http://git.linuxcnc.org/gitweb?p=linuxcnc.git;a=blob;f=docs/src/getting-started/Getting-Started-with-LinuxCNC.contents.txt;h=949aaef5120c7791dc91fd070bdffaf17693a930;hb=HEAD
[13:53:28] <seb_kuzminsky> that's the asciidoc source file that defines the contents of the Getting Started manual
[13:53:46] <seb_kuzminsky> it's built into html by this file:
http://git.linuxcnc.org/gitweb?p=linuxcnc.git;a=blob;f=docs/src/getting-started/index.txt;h=e8e6073071b96c8bc742e6e8a8f14c18a64f317e;hb=HEAD
[13:54:12] <seb_kuzminsky> and into pdf by this one:
http://git.linuxcnc.org/gitweb?p=linuxcnc.git;a=blob;f=docs/src/Master_Getting_Started.txt;h=7f523d212aa53c3bde2e22c6cca0cbba2a6891ef;hb=HEAD
[13:54:14] <mozmck> ok, so how do the others have different layouts for html and pdf?
[13:54:51] <seb_kuzminsky> all the pdfs come from docs/src/Master_*.txt
[13:55:13] <seb_kuzminsky> the html for Getting Started is kind of special, in that it's been cleaned up
[13:55:40] <seb_kuzminsky> the html for all the others is in docs/src/index.tmpl:
http://git.linuxcnc.org/gitweb?p=linuxcnc.git;a=blob;f=docs/src/index.tmpl;h=588c5d6cfaa8f1000709c850d034d6a627051889;hb=HEAD
[13:56:23] <mozmck> oh
[13:56:54] <seb_kuzminsky> heh yeah
[13:57:04] <seb_kuzminsky> it's all in index.tmpl? oh :-(
[13:57:08] <seb_kuzminsky> ;-)
[13:57:50] <mozmck> :-)
[13:58:54] <mozmck> well, I have to get back to other work. I may work on some of that soon though. It would be nice if it was cleaned up a little more before the release.
[13:59:27] <mozmck> What all needs to be done to release 2.7 now?
[14:00:32] <seb_kuzminsky> we're waiting on an hm2 encoder feature from micges, thats it i think
[14:01:09] <seb_kuzminsky> it would be great if we reorganized the Users Manual for 2.8 so it's consistent between html & pdf
[14:01:25] <mozmck> ok
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[16:24:28] <JT-Shop> so what is your thoughts on having two pdfs a Getting Started Guide and a LinuxCNC Manual that contains everything?
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[16:26:42] <archivist> I see noobs completely overwhelmed by lots of documentation, not sure what is the right way to go
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[16:34:01] <jthornton> there is a valid point but the advantage of having unlimited by pdf links is huge
[16:34:50] <archivist> I use the online docs to get that
[16:35:57] <mozmck> It sounds pretty good, because the Getting Started Guide could have the basic stuff and overview that a noob would need.
[16:36:44] <mozmck> The HTML could be better with a little work and a way to search them if installed locally
[16:37:21] <mozmck> Can you have links from one PDF to another? I know you can, but can you do it with our setup?
[16:37:38] <archivist> or a seriously good index built in docbook
[16:38:21] <mozmck> why docbook?
[16:39:19] <archivist> I mean asciidoc
[16:39:48] <mozmck> oh, I see.
[16:46:37] <archivist> one of those, if the index is easy to use, who needs a search
[16:46:53] <archivist> the way you use a real book
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[17:27:40] <JT-Shop> mozmck, no you can't have links between pdfs
[17:28:20] <JT-Shop> in our system
[17:31:10] <JT-Shop> archivist, the html links are limited by the pdfs
[17:31:37] <archivist> so drop pdf :)
[17:31:57] <archivist> or change to one pdf
[17:32:11] <archivist> with n sections
[17:33:05] <JT-Shop> that's what I'm talking about having one pdf that contains everything seen on the html
[17:33:12] <JT-Shop> except the man pages :(
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[18:13:03] <mozmck> cradek: someone just asked about cradek/joint_axes7 on the list. I haven't yet had time to look at it, but was wondering if that could be a goal to get finished and merged into 2.8?
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[19:51:19] <cradek> I would love it if that happened
[19:51:50] <cradek> I'm sorry I left my name on that branch. it's that way because that one is "uh I wonder if this rebase I did for someone is right"
[19:52:25] <cradek> there have been so many big changes since ja was started that problems might have leaked in
[19:52:35] <cradek> I bet it sure could use a fresh look
[19:54:17] <mozmck> I've been swamped here. I just now have a plasma table finished up in my shop, so I can start doing some more testing real soon.
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[19:55:45] <jthornton> mozmck, do you have a water table under your plasma?
[19:56:35] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03Norbert Schechner 052.6 90a29a6 06linuxcnc 10src/emc/usr_intf/gmoccapy/gmoccapy.py 10src/emc/usr_intf/gmoccapy/release_notes.txt gmoccapy_1_5_4 - bug in fullsize / edit change * 14http://git.linuxcnc.org/?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commitdiff;h=90a29a6
[19:56:36] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03Norbert Schechner 052.6 4c99175 06linuxcnc Merge branch '2.6' of ssh://norbert@git.linuxcnc.org/git/linuxcnc.git into 2.6 * 14http://git.linuxcnc.org/?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commitdiff;h=4c99175
[19:57:51] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03Norbert Schechner 052.7 388add0 06linuxcnc 10docs/src/gcode/gcode.txt Merge branch '2.6' into 2.7 * 14http://git.linuxcnc.org/?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commitdiff;h=388add0
[19:58:43] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03Norbert Schechner 05master f6cecd5 06linuxcnc Merge branch '2.7' * 14http://git.linuxcnc.org/?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commitdiff;h=f6cecd5
[20:00:23] <mozmck> jthornton: yes, it is a water table
[20:00:28] <mozmck> is that what you have?
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[20:06:05] <JT-Shop> yes, do you have the formula for plasma quench?
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[20:06:58] <mozmck> I don't even know what that is!
[20:08:55] <mozmck> Oh, for rust prevention? We have never bothered with that but just used water. We will drain it every so often and clean all the junk out.
[20:09:42] <JT-Shop> for 75 gallons you need 1/4lb sodium nitrite powder and some Physan 20
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[20:10:10] <mozmck> ah, thanks! I might do that on my table.
[20:10:20] <JT-Shop> when I add make up water I add 1 tea sodium nitrite and 1/8 tea Physan 20
[20:11:03] <JT-Shop> the sodium nitrite keeps the water table and slats from rusting and the Physan 20 keeps you from growing a garden in there
[20:11:13] <JT-Shop> you can get both on flea bay
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[20:14:22] <JT-Shop> how much water does your water table hold?
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[20:28:45] <mozmck> Sorry, I'm in and out a bit here. I'm not sure how much it holds. It's about 3 inches deep and about 4' x 4'
[20:29:04] <mozmck> So if I wasn't to lazy I could calculate it easily ;-)
[20:29:43] <mozmck> I'm half a mind to take it out and build a down draft box. I have a blower that would work I'm pretty sure.
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[20:31:27] <mozmck> I didn't build the table - although I did have to redo some of it. The water tray is under the slats on this one, which makes the water tray pretty ineffective. If I don't do a down-draft setup, I may re-build the water tray to bring the water up close to the metal.
[20:32:10] <jthornton> yea the water needs to be up to the part being cut
[20:32:22] <jthornton> water is much better at catching the dust than air
[20:32:51] <jthornton> my first attempt was below the slats and it didn't take me long to move it up
[20:33:04] <mozmck> Yes. *someone* had an idea to make the water tray slide out the side for cleaning, but did not think it through very well.
[20:33:22] <jthornton> http://gnipsel.com/shop/plasma/plasma-gallery.xhtml
[20:34:05] <jthornton> the water tank below the table is to store the plasma quench, I use a dip tube with a little air to pump the quench up
[20:34:57] <mozmck> That looks nice. I have a gantry kit from
http://www.precisionplasmallc.com, but a guy at work made the table base.
[20:35:54] <mozmck> I can put a 3' fan blowing stuff out of the shop, so it may not be too bad for now.
[20:36:00] <jthornton> I built it from scratch, it was my first emc project when I finally got linux to load on a computer
[20:36:09] <mozmck> Nice!
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[20:36:28] <mozmck> I've had a router running emc for several years - but don't get time to do much with it.
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[20:36:57] <mozmck> I router some banjo pieces now and again and have made aluminum plates for a friend's business.
[20:37:03] <jthornton> looks like a nice gantry
[20:37:33] <mozmck> It is very nice.
[20:38:13] <mozmck> I have the HDG model
[20:38:48] <jthornton> did you get the floating torch mount?
[20:39:45] <mozmck> Yes, it is pretty nice.
[20:40:01] <jthornton> does it have a touch off switch?
[20:40:07] <mozmck> has a little micro switch mounted in a milled out area in the back
[20:40:25] <mozmck> it only moves about 1/8" altogether.
[20:40:58] <mozmck> We make an ohmic touch sensor, so the switch will only be used for backup. Normally we hook it up as a limit switch
[20:40:59] <jthornton> similar to mine then, I have a touch off sub that moves down and finds the top of the material, sets Z0 then moves up to pierce height
[20:41:17] <jthornton> ok
[20:41:21] <jthornton> gotta run again
[20:41:25] <mozmck> Ok, me too.
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[20:54:16] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03Norbert Schechner 052.6 1b73f0e 06linuxcnc 10src/emc/usr_intf/gmoccapy/gmoccapy.glade 10src/emc/usr_intf/gmoccapy/gmoccapy.py 10src/emc/usr_intf/gmoccapy/release_notes.txt gmoccapy_1_5_4_1 - new place for full size preview button * 14http://git.linuxcnc.org/?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commitdiff;h=1b73f0e
[20:54:39] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03Norbert Schechner 052.7 a23e990 06linuxcnc Merge branch '2.6' into 2.7 * 14http://git.linuxcnc.org/?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commitdiff;h=a23e990
[20:55:00] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03Norbert Schechner 05master 14af9d8 06linuxcnc Merge branch '2.7' * 14http://git.linuxcnc.org/?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commitdiff;h=14af9d8
[21:01:09] * JT-Shop wonders if you can make a cron job to get a git checkout?
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[21:11:01] <jepler> I have some cron jobs like this: 58 * * * * cd .... && git fetch
[21:11:11] <jepler> 58 minutes after each hour, cd to a git repository and fetch
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[21:19:22] <JT-Shop> thanks
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[21:21:41] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03Norbert Schechner 052.6 8676c92 06linuxcnc 10lib/python/hal_glib.py hal_glip - do not emit signal file changed on remap * 14http://git.linuxcnc.org/?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commitdiff;h=8676c92
[21:22:02] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03Norbert Schechner 052.7 fde52dc 06linuxcnc Merge branch '2.6' into 2.7 * 14http://git.linuxcnc.org/?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commitdiff;h=fde52dc
[21:22:22] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03Norbert Schechner 05master e743793 06linuxcnc Merge branch '2.7' * 14http://git.linuxcnc.org/?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commitdiff;h=e743793
[21:22:48] <JT-Shop> I remember now, I used uGet
[21:23:10] <JT-Shop> but that may not work for git clone
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[22:38:07] <tinkerer> cradek: any news on the pluto front?
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