#linuxcnc-devel | Logs for 2015-02-17

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[00:09:10] <kb1kdw> andypugh: I scanned through the functions you posted links to -- I didn't see the bitbang spi portion at first glance. Was that what I was supposed to see?
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[00:20:47] <andypugh> kb1kdw: There isn’t any bitbang in there. That is the bit that you would need to do.
[00:23:48] <andypugh> The Mesa BSPI firmware in the FPGA does all the low-level stuff. What I am saying is that the code there is all that is needed to a) Take a config string from the HAL loadrt line and create all the HAL pins corresponding to the SPI bitstream (up to 96 bits at least) and b) convert the bitfields received to HAL values and format HAL values into bitfields ready to be sent out.
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[00:33:05] <cradek> kwallace2: your message was cut off after "assume the A axis"
[00:40:26] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03Francis Tisserant 05seb/master/po4a e5d27eb 06linuxcnc 10(11 files in 3 dirs) French doc gmoccapy translation with po4a * 14http://git.linuxcnc.org/?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commitdiff;h=e5d27eb
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[00:45:16] <kb1kdw> andypugh: Thanks, Andy. I will study up and see what I can stitch together based on your examples.
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[01:27:37] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03Dewey Garrett 052.7 9516669 06linuxcnc 10src/hal/hal_lib.c 10src/hal/hal_priv.h hal_lib: change .time item from parameter to pin * 14http://git.linuxcnc.org/?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commitdiff;h=9516669
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[01:46:49] <kwallace2> cradek, thanks for looking. The rest is: I want to apply the current G5x offsets and assume the A axis center is touched off to the current G5x.
[01:47:01] <kwallace2> But it's not important.
[01:48:38] <cradek> do I understand right that you ultimately want to make the path rotate by abc instead of the tool cone?
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[01:49:55] <cradek> that idea, generalized, is sure interesting: move the entire preview and backplot instead of the tool cone
[01:50:13] <cradek> that's how some machines actually move
[01:50:35] <cradek> (it all seems quite tricky to me)
[02:01:04] <linuxcnc-build> build #1160 of 1405.rip-wheezy-armhf is complete: Failure [4failed compile runtests] Build details are at http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/buildbot/builders/1405.rip-wheezy-armhf/builds/1160 blamelist: Dewey Garrett <dgarrett@panix.com>
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[02:09:21] <kwallace2> cradek, Yes, if A moves, I want the existing path to move with and centered on A. My standard setup would be a normal X Y and Z with A being a rotary table flipped up so the A center is parallel with X.
[02:10:16] <kwallace2> Instead of the tool tipping to indicate A position, the tool would stay still as with the real tool.
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[02:10:24] <cradek> will the xyz axis pointers spin with it?
[02:11:03] <kwallace2> I had not planned on XYZ moving since they don't in the real world.
[02:11:34] <cradek> well it depends - on a xyzab machine they do (can?) rotate
[02:12:02] <cradek> so if you think of your xyza machine as a somewhat-limited 5 axis machine...
[02:12:22] <cradek> seems like it all depends on what your cam expects the machine to do
[02:12:59] <kwallace2> I'm trying to limit myself to the most common setup and not have compromises from trying to be generic.
[02:13:26] <cradek> an xyzab kins I did for a customer way back when: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aF7C8d4d0nc
[02:14:39] <cradek> haha youtube comments
[02:15:49] <kwallace2> Yeah, in that case the tool does tilt.
[02:16:27] <cradek> for b, not for a
[02:16:41] <kwallace2> In case you missed it: http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/LinuxCNC/fourth_axis/
[02:17:40] <kwallace2> Yeah, but if I were working on that setup I would want to see it tilt in the plotter.
[02:18:42] <cradek> I think ideally it would match the machine - z,b,(w) would move the tool and a,x,y would move the backplot and preview
[02:18:42] <andypugh> cradek: It’s like a milling machine, only smaller :)
[02:18:52] <kwallace2> Another issue I had to cheat on was that some paths may not be on a workpiece in A, and these should not rotate.
[02:19:24] <kwallace2> I decided that all paths are on A and fix it later if I can.
[02:19:36] <cradek> a regular xyz bed mill might want Z to move the tool and xy to move the backplot/preview
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[02:20:00] <cradek> I think what you want is only one situation of a very useful generic configuration option
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[02:20:37] <andypugh> I decided a while ago it was all too hard and that if the backplot gave you enough info to spot when it was egregiously wrong then that was enough.
[02:21:45] <kwallace2> I tend to agree, but I thought I'd give it a try and see what happens.
[02:22:11] <cradek> GEOMETRY is happily generic, and we only came to that after we changed it around half a dozen times because nobody agreed on how it should work
[02:22:43] <cradek> seems like there needs to be two things and the GEOMETRY we have already is one - the other is just the same but moves the backplot/preview instead of the tool
[02:23:19] <cradek> I absolutely hope you get it working too :-)
[02:23:52] <kwallace2> CNC consumers want it.
[02:24:14] <cradek> yay, wants drive progress
[02:24:35] <andypugh> Consumers are very good at knowing what they want, and it is very hard to persuade them what they need.
[02:25:06] <cradek> they often know they want SOMETHING they don't have, but maybe not exactly what it is
[02:26:20] <kwallace2> This could take me quite a while. I'm not sure how long "resources" will hold out.
[02:26:35] <cradek> like for instance if you ask what happens if you add a tool offset in A? they'll say I don't know, who cares.
[02:27:13] <andypugh> Yeah, do we know why we support that, or is it wasted NML space?
[02:27:17] <cradek> what if you rotate the xy plane? does A rotate along with it?
[02:27:54] <cradek> andypugh: consider robot end-effectors
[02:28:21] <cradek> andypugh: also consider that tool offsets were only Z, then only X and Z (to my shame), and then what's the reasonable third implementation!?
[02:29:11] <andypugh> Don’t get me wrong, I approve. But I bet you a bottle of cheap booze that they have never been used.
[02:29:30] <linuxcnc-build> build #2973 of 1200.rip-lucid-i386 is complete: Failure [4failed compile runtests] Build details are at http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/buildbot/builders/1200.rip-lucid-i386/builds/2973 blamelist: Dewey Garrett <dgarrett@panix.com>
[02:30:17] <kwallace2> I'm only looking at a common setup that my resource sells some of.
[02:32:53] <cradek> andypugh: as generic as possible is good - having unused code paths is bad - software balancing act is hard
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[02:33:49] <andypugh> Well, if we were to move the tool data out of NML like sensible folk, it would be a non-issue
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[02:34:19] <andypugh> But sensible folk would probably move NML out of computers.
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[02:35:22] <linuxcnc-build> build #2972 of 1300.rip-precise-i386 is complete: Failure [4failed compile runtests] Build details are at http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/buildbot/builders/1300.rip-precise-i386/builds/2972 blamelist: Dewey Garrett <dgarrett@panix.com>
[02:36:13] <linuxcnc-build> build #2974 of 1306.rip-precise-amd64 is complete: Failure [4failed compile runtests] Build details are at http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/buildbot/builders/1306.rip-precise-amd64/builds/2974 blamelist: Dewey Garrett <dgarrett@panix.com>
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[02:37:51] <kwallace2> I really am a blind squirrel with this and really have no business playing with it. With that in mind, I haven't touched anything that had NML on it.
[02:38:50] <kwallace2> So far I looked at linuxcnc.status and gl bits.
[02:38:57] <kwallace2> I've
[02:40:00] <cradek> from your page it looks like you've found the important spots
[02:40:20] <linuxcnc-build> build #1130 of 1400.rip-wheezy-i386 is complete: Failure [4failed compile runtests] Build details are at http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/buildbot/builders/1400.rip-wheezy-i386/builds/1130 blamelist: Dewey Garrett <dgarrett@panix.com>
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[02:40:47] <cradek> you found the tool drawing bits - I think you have to find the preview and backplot drawing bits and do another thing that's just exactly like the GEOMETRY thing there
[02:41:36] <cradek> I bet doing the fully generic version will actually be the easiest because you already have that example
[02:41:46] <linuxcnc-build> build #1130 of 1403.rip-wheezy-amd64 is complete: Failure [4failed compile runtests] Build details are at http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/buildbot/builders/1403.rip-wheezy-amd64/builds/1130 blamelist: Dewey Garrett <dgarrett@panix.com>
[02:42:09] <linuxcnc-build> build #2174 of 1301.rip-precise-rtai-i386 is complete: Failure [4failed compile runtests] Build details are at http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/buildbot/builders/1301.rip-precise-rtai-i386/builds/2174 blamelist: Dewey Garrett <dgarrett@panix.com>
[02:42:16] <kwallace2> Yeah, I got the feeling I haven't gotten into the early plotting bits yet.
[02:42:37] <linuxcnc-build> build #1321 of 1404.rip-wheezy-rtpreempt-amd64 is complete: Failure [4failed compile runtests] Build details are at http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/buildbot/builders/1404.rip-wheezy-rtpreempt-amd64/builds/1321 blamelist: Dewey Garrett <dgarrett@panix.com>
[02:45:27] <linuxcnc-build> build #641 of 1402.rip-wheezy-rtpreempt-i386 is complete: Failure [4failed compile runtests] Build details are at http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/buildbot/builders/1402.rip-wheezy-rtpreempt-i386/builds/641 blamelist: Dewey Garrett <dgarrett@panix.com>
[02:46:29] <kwallace2> I also tried to follow how a g-code file gets loaded and parsed, hopefully to find where the parsed bits get turned into plot points. This isn't done yet.
[02:47:25] <linuxcnc-build> build #789 of 1401.rip-wheezy-rtai-i386 is complete: Failure [4failed compile runtests] Build details are at http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/buildbot/builders/1401.rip-wheezy-rtai-i386/builds/789 blamelist: Dewey Garrett <dgarrett@panix.com>
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[02:52:09] <kwallace2> One thing I like about Python is it seems you can try to print just about anything and it will find sometime useful. The C++ bits won't print Jimmy unless you already know everything before hand.
[02:52:36] <kwallace2> Opps something not sometime
[02:54:30] <cradek> yes print is awfully smart
[02:55:59] <linuxcnc-build> build #2973 of 1202.rip-lucid-amd64 is complete: Failure [4failed compile runtests] Build details are at http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/buildbot/builders/1202.rip-lucid-amd64/builds/2973 blamelist: Dewey Garrett <dgarrett@panix.com>
[02:57:04] <kwallace2> I'm wondering if I should consider just scrapping Gremlin and start something new, even if it's just to learn enough to go back and fix Gremlin.
[02:58:54] <linuxcnc-build> build #2973 of 1201.rip-lucid-rtai-i386 is complete: Failure [4failed compile runtests] Build details are at http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/buildbot/builders/1201.rip-lucid-rtai-i386/builds/2973 blamelist: Dewey Garrett <dgarrett@panix.com>
[02:58:54] <linuxcnc-build> build #2983 of 0000.checkin is complete: Failure [4failed] Build details are at http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/buildbot/builders/0000.checkin/builds/2983 blamelist: Dewey Garrett <dgarrett@panix.com>
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[04:56:11] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03Dewey Garrett 052.7 250bc40 06linuxcnc 10tests/alias.0/expected 10tests/loadrt.1/expected runtests: update for .time pins * 14http://git.linuxcnc.org/?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commitdiff;h=250bc40
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[15:35:35] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03Francis Tisserant 05seb/master/po4a 285867c 06linuxcnc 10docs/src/gui/gmoccapy.fr.po 10docs/src/gui/gmoccapy_fr.txt French documentation update * 14http://git.linuxcnc.org/?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commitdiff;h=285867c
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[16:29:12] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03Robert W. Ellenberg 05feature/spiral-arc-handling-2.7 e004532 06linuxcnc 10src/emc/motion/command.c 10src/emc/tp/tp.c 10src/emc/tp/tp_types.h motion: fix for zero-length line errors * 14http://git.linuxcnc.org/?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commitdiff;h=e004532
[16:29:12] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03Robert W. Ellenberg 05feature/spiral-arc-handling-2.7 e86321f 06linuxcnc 10(5 files) tp: Added optimizations to increase arc tangential acceleration * 14http://git.linuxcnc.org/?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commitdiff;h=e86321f
[16:29:13] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03Robert W. Ellenberg 05feature/spiral-arc-handling-2.7 7fbff07 06linuxcnc 10src/libnml/posemath/posemath.cc posemath: fixed PM_CARTESIAN cross product * 14http://git.linuxcnc.org/?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commitdiff;h=7fbff07
[16:29:15] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03Robert W. Ellenberg 05feature/spiral-arc-handling-2.7 2aaa7d1 06linuxcnc 10src/emc/tp/blendmath.c tp: fix for rare acceleration violation that that Sam found * 14http://git.linuxcnc.org/?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commitdiff;h=2aaa7d1
[16:29:19] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03Robert W. Ellenberg 05feature/spiral-arc-handling-2.7 eefa5f7 06linuxcnc 10tests/trajectory-planner/circular-arcs/configs/sim_XYZ.ini 10tests/trajectory-planner/circular-arcs/configs/sim_XYZ_fast.ini tests: increased optimization depth in fast sim config * 14http://git.linuxcnc.org/?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commitdiff;h=eefa5f7
[16:30:34] <cradek> awesome
[16:31:29] <seb_kuzminsky> yay!
[16:32:23] <skunkworks> awesome!
[16:32:36] <skunkworks> I just emailed him like 30 minutes ago
[16:32:41] <skunkworks> https://trademarks.justia.com/865/18/pathpilot-86518629.html
[16:33:46] amnesic_away is now known as amnesic
[16:34:48] <skunkworks> sounds like tormach is going to be announcing thier new control very soon (for the mill too).
[16:35:36] <pcw_home> big add on CNCzone
[16:36:05] <skunkworks> really? did I miss that?
[16:36:21] <cradek> people see ads?
[16:36:25] <skunkworks> heh
[16:37:12] <pcw_home> http://www.tormach.com/pathpilot?utm_campaign=cnczone_pathpilot&utm_source=cnczone&utm_medium=banner&utm_content=pathpilot_intro
[16:38:08] <skunkworks> cool
[16:38:12] <mozmck> adblock works pretty good :)
[16:38:28] <pcw_home> Yeah had to turn it off :-)
[16:39:12] <cradek> Should I convert my Tormach mill controller to PathPilot? We think the majority of people will want to convert.
[16:39:43] <cradek> > PathPilot is a development of the Tormach.
[16:39:47] <cradek> uh
[16:41:15] <skunkworks> I guess parts of it is...
[16:41:39] <mozmck> They developed the name at least :)
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[16:48:06] <mozmck> Is their UI proprietary?
[16:48:28] <pcw_home> Sure sounds like it
[16:48:50] <cradek> so far, we can only guess their intents
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[16:58:10] <kwallace2> Yikes, that's not what I expected.
[17:00:23] <skunkworks> has a little bit of smitthy taste.. But smithy moved to siemens
[17:01:06] <kwallace2> I thought they would slip Linux in as a continuation rather than an evolution.
[17:10:16] <kwallace2> My guess is that Smithy didn't apply enough resources to get critical mass, and decided to get something off-the-shelf.
[17:11:10] <kwallace2> Who knows, maybe Siemens is starting to feel threatened, and gave Smithy a good deal.
[17:13:29] <seb_kuzminsky> wow there's a lot of new stuff in 2.7 since ~pre2
[17:14:32] <kwallace2> Oops, the screen shows a soft-limit error.
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[17:19:19] <seb_kuzminsky> hm, i didn't appreciate halcheck enough when dgarr wrote it, it's pretty neat
[17:20:14] <mozmck> kwallace2: do you work for tormach?
[17:21:08] <kwallace2> We are 'friendly'.
[17:22:05] <mozmck> oh ok. sounded like you might from some things.
[17:23:12] <kwallace2> Yes, I am not able to give un-biased opinions.
[17:23:42] <mozmck> heh :)
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[17:26:19] <kwallace2> Is anyone familiar with this? http://gcode.ws/
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[17:27:55] <seb_kuzminsky> is that a cd-rom drive on the front of the path pilot computer? that's so retro! i bet cradek will love it
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[17:30:50] <cradek> funny - I was just facing (to my dismay) installing windows in virtualbox on a real computer here, and it doesn't have a cd, but windows is on a cd
[17:31:02] <cradek> my powers are nearly useless when it comes to the windows world
[17:31:40] <seb_kuzminsky> things are so weird in that world
[17:32:36] <kwallace2> How can you install Windows when it looks at your hardware to see if it is still the PC you bought ten years ago?
[17:33:24] <cradek> kwallace2: who knows - luckily I can just give problems like that to someone else to handle
[17:33:48] <cradek> hey I guess that's my power
[17:33:51] <cradek> yay
[17:33:53] <kwallace2> LOL :)
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[17:40:09] <mozmck> Windows XP works well in VirtualBox anyhow. I imagine other versions do if they are not tied to specific hardware.
[17:40:38] <mozmck> They will get tied to the virtual VirtualBox hardware once activated there I guess.
[17:40:44] <skunkworks> 7 is ok alos
[17:40:46] <skunkworks> also
[17:41:39] <cradek> at goodwill they have a new sign that says BECAUSE OF LICENSE ACTIVATION RESTRICTIONS YOU MAY NOT TURN ON THE COMPUTERS BEFORE BUYING THEM
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[17:42:00] <mozmck> One nice thing I discovered, is that the virtualbox harddisk image can be easily backed up since it is just one large file.
[17:42:00] <cradek> they are also now around $400 instead of $100 like they used to be
[17:42:16] <cradek> I buy from the other shelf where they have missing hard drives and are $29
[17:42:50] <mozmck> At least with WinXP it is no longer tied to a certain computer either - I can copy the image to another computer with the same virtualbox setup and run it there.
[17:43:10] <cradek> I wouldn't say that too loudly
[17:43:27] <mozmck> wow, you can get a brand new computer for $400
[17:43:40] <cradek> yeah, no joke
[17:44:09] <cradek> I don't know what chain of bad decisions led them to where they are
[17:44:32] <cradek> I assume they started with "I guess we have to be a microsoft certified something or other"
[17:45:22] <mozmck> MS may make them put a new copy of windows on the machines
[17:46:04] <mozmck> or maybe they have to in order to wipe the old data? since you don't get a disk with them now...
[17:46:32] <cradek> I booted debian+rtai from my keychain and tested latency, and bought a very nice machine for my lathe for the $29
[17:46:50] <cradek> core-2-duo with 1GB of ram and two pci slots, everything but the hard disk
[17:47:08] <cradek> in a cute little compact case
[17:47:56] <mozmck> somebody sent a link to these yesterday: http://www.ebay.com/itm/281497643572
[17:48:19] <mozmck> I should buy one. Or two.
[17:48:57] <cradek> considering free shipping, that looks like a great price
[17:49:15] <mozmck> yes
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[17:52:06] <cradek> wow used PCs are cheap
[17:56:16] <pcw_home> Core2 Duos seem to have quite decent latency (at least the 3 or 4 I have do)
[17:56:38] <pcw_home> also good on Preemt-RT
[17:56:39] <cradek> the one I just bought tested well before any tweaking at all, I just booted it
[17:57:10] <cradek> I love booting debian live from usb and just having everything work perfectly
[17:57:31] <cradek> at goodwill they have a monitor and keyboard you can use to test before you buy stuff, took two minutes
[17:58:52] <pcw_home> The wheezy live image runs fine on my cheap laptop I bought to test hm2-eth
[17:59:17] <pcw_home> (crappy latency but probably OK)
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[18:39:42] <skunkworks> pcw_home, what laptop?
[18:40:16] <pcw_home> bought a ebay Dell E6420 to try with hm2_eth
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[18:40:23] <skunkworks> neat
[18:41:25] <pcw_home> Need to get a ESATA --> SATA cable or HDD caddy to try without wiping windows
[18:41:50] <skunkworks> duel boot!
[18:41:59] <skunkworks> dual
[18:42:22] <pcw_home> I like duel better :-)
[18:43:35] <skunkworks> I just dual booted the asus
[18:43:52] <skunkworks> well - it did have 14.04 on it - now wheezy
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[18:45:28] <pcw_home> YOu can apparently get caddies for the dell that let you replace the DVD with a HDD (well SDD in my case)
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[18:46:54] <pcw_home> Or I could just test with the ESATA connection but no one seems to have those cables locally
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[20:11:25] <skunkworks> pcw_home, money shot.. http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&jsonp=vglnk_142420387899715&key=8fc203c6d53cfcf639464b616dec43af&libId=09459180-6f47-4449-8f3c-6c4e62d50996&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnczone.com%2Fforums%2Ftormach-personal-cnc-mill%2F259506-tormach-5.html&v=1&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tormach.com%2Fpathpilot%3Futm_campaign%3Dcnczone_pathpilot%26utm_source%3Dcnczone%26utm_medium%3Dbanner%26utm_content%3Dpathp
[20:11:25] <skunkworks> ilot_intro&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnczone.com%2Fforums%2Ftormach-personal-cnc-mill%2F259506-tormach-6.html&title=Just%20In%20Tormach%20News%20-%20Page%205&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tormach.com%2Fpathpilot%3Futm...athpilot_intro
[20:11:29] <skunkworks> wow
[20:11:30] <skunkworks> sorry
[20:13:12] <skunkworks> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/tormach-personal-cnc-mill/259506-tormach-5.html
[20:13:38] <skunkworks> no..
[20:13:41] <micges> skunkworks: that address is way too short ;)
[20:14:02] <skunkworks> heh
[20:14:04] <skunkworks> ok http://www.cnczone.com/forums/tormach-personal-cnc-mill/259506-tormach-5.html#post1649534
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[20:16:51] <skunkworks> http://www.tormach.com/store/index.php?app=ecom&ns=prodshow&ref=PATHPILOT-BETA
[20:19:26] <skunkworks> they say they have a re-vamped trajectory planner.. hmmm
[20:19:33] <skunkworks> http://www.tormach.com/blog/pathpilot-beta-testing/?utm_source=blog&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=postnotify&utm_id=5184&utm_title=Introducing+PathPilot%26trade%3B%2C+Tormach%26amp%3B%238217%3Bs+new+machine+controller
[20:21:59] <mozmck> hopefully they've been following all the bug fixes?
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[20:36:59] <seb_kuzminsky> i wonder if they're using mk
[20:39:11] <skunkworks> they did have the mk fest their
[20:39:19] <skunkworks> there
[20:44:02] <seb_kuzminsky> some more info here: http://www.tormach.com/blog/pathpilot-beta-testing/
[20:46:39] <seb_kuzminsky> strange, i can't find the source code download link anywhere
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[20:59:50] <seb_kuzminsky> mozmck: i'm looking at your new-deb-conf branch
[20:59:52] <skunkworks> now now..
[21:00:22] <seb_kuzminsky> why did you change the order of the arguments to lsb_release?
[21:01:23] <seb_kuzminsky> looks like you removed build-dependencies on texlive-lang-{french,spanish}
[21:02:28] <seb_kuzminsky> we don't need an explicit dependency on libudev - we have the build-dependency on libudev-dev, and the debian packaging tools will see that we're linked against it and add the runtime dependency for us
[21:02:49] <seb_kuzminsky> otherwise it looks good
[21:04:28] <mozmck> hi seb
[21:04:32] <seb_kuzminsky> hi!
[21:04:57] <mozmck> I didn't remove the dependencies to texlive-lang-french etc I don't think - they were in there twice.
[21:05:04] <seb_kuzminsky> whoops!
[21:06:00] <seb_kuzminsky> yes, i see that you are right
[21:06:05] <seb_kuzminsky> thanks for fixing my mistake!
[21:06:20] <mozmck> That has been the case for a long time I think because the current setup does it as well. They are listed in the EXTRA_BUILD in configure, and in the depends in control
[21:06:40] <seb_kuzminsky> aha, maybe that's where i got it
[21:07:03] <mozmck> I changed the order of arguments to lsb_release to make both calls consistent, which is how the old configure did it too :)
[21:07:10] <seb_kuzminsky> the way we build up the Depends, Build-Depends, etc, is one of the super hairy bits i was hoping to clean up a bit
[21:08:14] <mozmck> For libudev, if all someone gets is a linuxcnc*.deb package, it will have the libudev dependency in it?
[21:08:15] <seb_kuzminsky> oh, yeah is guess that was a bit schizophrenic, and your way is better
[21:08:27] <seb_kuzminsky> it absolutely should, yes
[21:08:41] <mozmck> Well, it was not in the finished control file.
[21:09:02] <seb_kuzminsky> oh, well, i should say, it depends
[21:09:17] <seb_kuzminsky> i bet linuxcnc-uspace depends on libudev, and i bet linuxcnc (the rtai flavor) does not
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[21:10:11] <mozmck> linuxcnc-uspace in the current setup depends on libudev-dev - which I don't think is correct.
[21:10:25] <seb_kuzminsky> i agree that's a bug
[21:10:35] <mozmck> in your configure it did not depend on libudev-dev or libudev
[21:10:38] <seb_kuzminsky> are you on 2.7.0~pre2? i think that version has the bug, and i think i fixed it in 2.7 after that
[21:11:14] <seb_kuzminsky> it may be that the libudev-dev build-dependency was added after where the new-deb-configure branch forked off
[21:11:26] <mozmck> I rebased onto the 2.7 branch but I verified that master was the same at the time.
[21:11:43] <mozmck> as far as the configure, control.in, rules.in etc files
[21:12:06] <seb_kuzminsky> it's also very possible i just messed it up
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[21:15:50] <seb_kuzminsky> the latest 2.7 rtai deb does not depend on libudev, which is correct
[21:16:22] <mozmck> yes - only the uspace version
[21:16:57] <mozmck> in configure line 154: KERNEL_DEPENDS=libudev-dev
[21:16:58] <seb_kuzminsky> and the latest 2.7 uspace deb depends on both libudev (correct) and libudev-dev (incorrect)
[21:17:03] <seb_kuzminsky> yeah :-/
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[21:19:52] <mozmck> I don't see that it depends on libudev, only libudev-dev. If you run configure in the debian dir you can look at the control file and see what it actually outputs.
[21:21:38] <mozmck> or are you looking at the depends in the .deb itself? I bet it has libudev there because libudev-dev depends on it.
[21:21:58] <seb_kuzminsky> no, that's not it
[21:22:08] <mozmck> ok
[21:22:33] <seb_kuzminsky> after you run debian/configure, see that debian/control has a Depends: line that includes ${shlibs:Depends}
[21:22:56] <mozmck> yes
[21:23:07] <seb_kuzminsky> after the source code is compiled and linked and the deb tools are building the .deb package, that gets expanded to the list of all the packages that our binaries got linked against
[21:23:20] <seb_kuzminsky> that's in debian/rules
[21:23:21] <mozmck> ah, I didn't know that.
[21:23:24] <seb_kuzminsky> in the binary-arch target
[21:23:44] <seb_kuzminsky> the dh_shlibdeps command
[21:24:23] <seb_kuzminsky> it's super convenient that we dont have to maintain a list of deb packages providing shared libs that we depend on
[21:24:32] <seb_kuzminsky> debian packaging tools do that for us
[21:24:35] <mozmck> aha, ok.
[21:24:43] <mozmck> yes, that is nice!
[21:24:46] <seb_kuzminsky> we just need to provide the list of libraries/headers we *build* against
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[21:25:48] <mozmck> that would explain why most things in the depends are scripting languages and external programs/utilities
[21:26:01] <seb_kuzminsky> yeap
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[21:27:23] <mozmck> I still haven't run it on my wheezy machine - I should do that.
[21:27:46] <mozmck> "wheezy" is not a name I would have picked.
[21:27:50] <seb_kuzminsky> heh
[21:28:03] <seb_kuzminsky> i'm running wheezy on my laptop here, and it's working great :-)
[21:28:25] <mozmck> "sick", "barely works", "cough"
[21:28:32] <seb_kuzminsky> i once named a cat after a debian distribution (slink)
[21:28:38] <mozmck> the new_deb_conf is?
[21:28:53] <seb_kuzminsky> we called her slinky, she was a good cat
[21:29:07] <mozmck> that's a bit better name anyhow!
[21:29:53] <seb_kuzminsky> i wonder what they'll do when they run out of toy-story names
[21:30:18] <mozmck> heh, is that where that came from?
[21:30:38] <mozmck> I prefer version numbers myself.
[21:30:43] <seb_kuzminsky> yeah, one of the debian founders worked at pixar when it all got started
[21:31:08] <seb_kuzminsky> that's also why the "unstable" debian distro is called "sid" - he was the mean neighbor kid who broke all the toys
[21:31:18] <mozmck> I see :)
[21:31:41] <seb_kuzminsky> i like version numbers, but i also like names
[21:31:44] <mozmck> I ran unstable for years, and didn't have many problems with it overall
[21:31:45] <seb_kuzminsky> maybe we should have both, too
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[21:31:59] <seb_kuzminsky> when i was young and reckless i did too
[21:32:28] <mozmck> I switched to ubuntu, and now am on Mint
[21:32:42] <seb_kuzminsky> i switched to ubuntu, now i'm back on debian ;-)
[21:32:51] <seb_kuzminsky> though i've been meaning to give mint a try, i've heard good things about it
[21:33:02] <mozmck> :) It's too out of date for my main system.
[21:33:11] <seb_kuzminsky> maybe "LinuxCNC 2.7 ChuckSmasher"
[21:33:35] <mozmck> I like mint. Their choice of programs and setup is near perfect for me.
[21:33:47] <seb_kuzminsky> or "Hard Stop"
[21:34:00] <mozmck> heh, BitBreaker
[21:34:05] <seb_kuzminsky> heh
[21:34:24] <mozmck> MetalMelter
[21:35:02] <seb_kuzminsky> elon musk is naming his autonomous rocket-retrieval drone boats after Culture starships
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[21:38:43] <KimK_laptop> mozmck: Hi, how are you? Which Mint desktop? I'm using Cinnamon. I tried MATE first (forked Gnome 2), I'd prefer that, but they renamed all the apps to enable dual-desktop installs, drove me crazy, so I picked Cinnamon (not crazy about Gnome 3 though). But now that I've tried XFCE on our Debian ISO, I might take XFCE next time, nice.
[21:39:25] <mozmck> Hi KimK_laptop: I'm doing well, but quite busy here. 3 children now and more work than ever!
[21:39:40] <KimK_laptop> Ha, that'll keep you busy!
[21:40:04] <mozmck> I like Cinnamon pretty well. It does use more system resources, which is noticeable on slower machines.
[21:40:31] <mozmck> One nice thing about Mint is that they keep the look and feel pretty close between the different desktops.
[21:41:03] <mozmck> I use kind of a hybrid right now. I use XFCE, but have Nemo for my default file manager.
[21:41:42] <mozmck> Mint XFCE uses Gedit instead of Mousepad, which is nice - although the latest Mousepad now has syntax highlighting.
[21:42:34] <KimK_laptop> Yes, consistent look, and also their GUI (even when offered to Windows users), does not "frighten the horses".
[21:42:44] <mozmck> Thunar (file manager for XFCE) now has tabs, which I use a *lot*, but I use Nemo for the nemo-terminal which is an embedded terminal window which follows the directory you are in.
[21:43:41] <KimK_laptop> Yes, I like the nemo-terminal too. And I still install the open-in-terminal option besides. Choices are good.
[21:44:02] <mozmck> I have gotten quite used to the search feature on the menu in Cinnamon, and the Whisker menu in XFCE works identically.
[21:44:21] <mozmck> Thunar has the open-in-terminal by default as well.
[21:45:38] <mozmck> I also use rabbitvcs, which shows emblems for git status in Nemo, but does not in Thunar.
[21:47:15] <KimK_laptop> Thanks, rabbitvcs sounds interesting, I'll look at it. I haven't used our new Debian XFCE install too much yet, but I hope to eventually. Right now I'm (on Cinnamon laptop) trying to master the intricacies of gEDA/gaf/pcb for a PCB I need.
[21:48:23] <KimK_laptop> OK, well, you're busy, thanks for chatting. See you again.
[21:48:54] <KimK_laptop> (and Hi Seb)
[21:49:12] <seb_kuzminsky> hi KimK_laptop, how's it going?
[21:50:50] <KimK_laptop> That's kind of a long story, but I've got plenty to do, at least, lol. You wouldn't know if anyone in our group has used gschem/pcb, would you?
[21:51:18] <seb_kuzminsky> i've used it a little bit, but decided i liked kicad better
[21:51:42] <KimK_laptop> Oh, OK, that's interesting, what persuaded you?
[21:52:22] <seb_kuzminsky> oh wait, it was kicad instead of geda
[21:52:42] <KimK_laptop> ?
[21:53:16] <seb_kuzminsky> oh yeah, gschem is part of geda
[21:53:29] <seb_kuzminsky> kicad includes schematic layout through pcb manufacture, just like geda does
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[21:53:44] <seb_kuzminsky> i found the kicad interface simpler to learn
[21:54:08] <seb_kuzminsky> i last used a schematic capture to pcb toolchain years ago, and it was eagle
[21:55:30] <seb_kuzminsky> kicad's toolchain seemed more integrated than geda's
[21:55:33] * seb_kuzminsky shrugs
[21:55:37] <KimK_laptop> Yes, those seem to be the big three, gEDA-gaf (gschem/pcb/gerbv, etc), KiCAD, and Eagle. Each has their adherents, I suppose. I had to pick one.
[21:56:10] <seb_kuzminsky> i think you did the right thing to avoid eagle, better to work with the open-source tools
[21:56:57] <KimK_laptop> Yes, gEDA is the oldest, and therefore maybe the clunkiest/cruftiest(?) but you're right, I did want to stick with open source.
[21:57:42] <KimK_laptop> But since they've been around the longest, they've got a big developer group, if that means anything.
[21:57:51] <seb_kuzminsky> that means a lot
[21:58:58] <mozmck> I use kicad here. Lot of work going on in it. CERN is working on it and about to release some new features.
[21:59:10] <seb_kuzminsky> ooh, that's great to hear
[21:59:13] <KimK_laptop> It's pretty good once you learn the "gEDA way", lol. But it's at times not intuitive, so a quick Q to an expert can save a lot of time. Their IRC channel responds pretty fast.
[21:59:19] <seb_kuzminsky> i quite liked it when i fiddled with it for a weekend
[21:59:36] <mozmck> Debian XFCE will probably get some of the new features in about 6 years :)
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[22:00:19] <KimK_laptop> That's good to hear about KiCAD, maybe I'll end up learning that too, but I'd rather not right now, now that I'm halfway into it. Maybe on the next board?
[22:00:34] <mozmck> Yes, I did not use gEDA long enough to learn it. Kicad has a push-and-shove router that CERN did, that is very nice.
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[22:01:39] <mozmck> http://home.web.cern.ch/about/updates/2015/02/kicad-software-gets-cern-treatment
[22:02:01] <seb_kuzminsky> if you run axis on a non-trivkins machine (for example sim/axis/vismach/hexapod-sim) and you're in joint mode, it chooses jog speeds wrong
[22:02:31] <seb_kuzminsky> joints 0-2 get the linear jog speed, whether they're linear or rotary joints, and joints 3-5 get the angular jog speed
[22:02:51] <seb_kuzminsky> its as if axis thinks joints 0-2 corresponds to x, y, z, and joints 3-5 to a, b, c
[22:02:54] <seb_kuzminsky> silly axis
[22:03:27] <KimK_laptop> I'll keep you guys posted on my alleged progress, lol. I'll be around here for awhile.
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[22:05:33] <KimK_laptop> mozmck: Thanks, that's a very impressive KiCAD/CERN article.
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[22:09:29] <KimK_laptop> I wonder what CERN calls their Tux-PCB-mascot? http://www.ohwr.org/projects/cern-kicad/wiki/WorkPackages Can't look now, back to work!
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[22:35:02] <seb_kuzminsky> axis makes the jog speed decision in get_jog_speed()
[22:35:38] <seb_kuzminsky> that function looks at vars.joint_mode to (i think) guess if we're in joint/free mode or in teleop/world mode, but gets the check backwards because the variable is named wrong
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[22:37:20] <seb_kuzminsky> vars.joint_mode is False if the machine is in joint mode, and True if the machine is in teleop mode
[22:37:47] <Tom_itx> heh
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[22:40:25] <skunkworks> seb_kuzminsky: what are you looking at?
[22:41:17] <seb_kuzminsky> a jog-speed bug in axis, in joint more, on non-trivkins machines
[22:41:22] <seb_kuzminsky> *joint mode
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[22:42:58] <andypugh> I wonder which version of tool offsets Tormach are using? Remap + G43.1 or the original patch?
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[22:43:58] <seb_kuzminsky> huh, in the comments of the video that Bruce Layne posted, http://youtu.be/WqJmBEWnvpk, a tormach spokesperson claims that tormach funded rob ellenberg's trajectory planner. does anyone know if that's true?
[22:44:20] <seb_kuzminsky> that's a pretty significant contribution back to the community, if so
[22:45:16] <PCW> Yep, thats true
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[22:47:13] <andypugh> Tormach hosted a Machinkit meetup too.
[22:47:36] <andypugh> Which probably counts
[22:54:31] <seb_kuzminsky> none of rob's commits claim copyright by tormach
[22:54:37] <seb_kuzminsky> some claim copyright by rob
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[22:56:33] <seb_kuzminsky> PCW: that's news to me, cool
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[23:00:41] <kb1kdw> Anyone: Do components get pre-empted midway through their execution, or do they get to run all of the way through?
[23:01:03] <seb_kuzminsky> kb1kdw: userspace components get interrupted all the time
[23:01:26] <seb_kuzminsky> realtime components get interrupted only by faster (shorter-period) realtime threads
[23:02:16] <kb1kdw> Ok -- I am writing a SPI driver component. It do not plan to classify it as "userspace." It will function sort of like pwmgen.
[23:02:55] <seb_kuzminsky> ok, a realtime component (ie, one which doesn't run as its own process, but exports a function to hal, and the hal file addf's it to a realtime thread)
[23:02:58] <kb1kdw> So they don't all just get called one at a time by the base thread? I
[23:03:32] <seb_kuzminsky> there are often two realtime threads: a fast (short-period) one called "base" and a slow (long-period) one called "servo" (which is a little confusing)
[23:03:51] <kb1kdw> yep -- I would put it into base.
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[23:04:04] <seb_kuzminsky> you can addf your realtime comps' functions to either thread
[23:04:09] <andypugh> The SPI driver will need a base-thread function to bit-bang and a servo-thread one to update the HAL pins
[23:04:15] <seb_kuzminsky> if you add your function to the base thread, then it will never get preempted
[23:04:36] <seb_kuzminsky> (unless you do something weird, like go out of your way to create an extra thread with an even shorter period)
[23:04:38] <kb1kdw> That was what I had hoped.
[23:04:42] <seb_kuzminsky> :-)
[23:04:56] <andypugh> You don’t normally do floating point in the Base thread. In fact until a couple of years you simply weren’t allowed to.
[23:05:27] <kb1kdw> I don't plan to use pi() for anything in my spi driver :)
[23:05:38] <seb_kuzminsky> heh
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[23:06:45] <kb1kdw> That is really good, because I was going to burn some cycles locking my buffers just in case some clown tried to take over my MCU.
[23:07:14] <kb1kdw> If I don't have to worry about
[23:08:13] <kb1kdw> "times up" servo thread time, forget about finishing this pass, I can pretend my inputs and output won't change until I have exited, right?
[23:08:57] <kb1kdw> I was worried it was like every function got it's own timer generated interrupt.
[23:10:10] <kb1kdw> Is there a base thread "idle time" variable I can plot in halscope to see if I am overloading things?
[23:10:40] <seb_kuzminsky> heh, yeah, dgarr just made that into a pin so you can plot it
[23:10:52] <seb_kuzminsky> each function has a .time pin, that says how long the function took to run last time
[23:11:28] <kb1kdw> I have used that for my function. Is there one for the sum of everything in the base thread & the servo thread.
[23:11:50] <kb1kdw> I wonder if there would be a benefit to making a "slothen" thread that runs every 50ms
[23:11:56] <seb_kuzminsky> hm, thread time as pin i dont think is available
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[23:12:19] <seb_kuzminsky> in halcmd you can "show thread", it has the info you want (most recent runtime of the thread, and max-ever runtime)
[23:12:51] <seb_kuzminsky> but it's not available as a pin, so you can't look at it with halscope
[23:14:31] <kb1kdw> Can I also count on each item within the servo thread getting to finish before someone else in the servo thread could mess the state of things up? For example, if two drivers were sharing the spi buffer, one noticed it wasn't busy and decided to pick up the phone, it wouldn't get cut off before it finished writing to the buffers. Is that true?
[23:15:25] <seb_kuzminsky> within a thread, the functions are ordered (the order is shown by 'halcmd show thread')
[23:15:35] <seb_kuzminsky> each function runs to completion before the next one is started
[23:15:50] <seb_kuzminsky> so if you write your driver in a sane way, they can use shared lockless data structures safely
[23:16:00] <seb_kuzminsky> does that answer your question?
[23:16:29] <kb1kdw> Yes.
[23:17:22] <kb1kdw> Is all of this summed up like we have just discussed in a document somewhere, or is it just obvious to people who are more educated than I?
[23:19:12] <kb1kdw> I hate pestering dev's with newb questions, but I haven't had good luck finding answers to these sort of questions that keep me awake at night...
[23:19:16] <andypugh> I can remember when it wasn’t obvious. That would be about the time I was learning C to write the Mesa three-phase PWM driver
[23:20:05] <seb_kuzminsky> kb1kdw: good question...
[23:20:11] <kb1kdw> I see mention of object and C++ goodness in the developer's guide. Is everything C++able, or just C for components.
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[23:21:24] <kb1kdw> A friend of mine mentioned overloading would be a good way to solve my wacky state machine I was attempting to code, but at the time I was pretty sure the code base was C only.
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[23:21:46] <kb1kdw> Now that I have read more, I'
[23:21:54] <kb1kdw> am not so sure...
[23:23:12] <seb_kuzminsky> the realtime code often gets compiled to run in kernel space under RTAI, so it must be C, not C++
[23:24:02] <kb1kdw> In the developer's guide, I also saw it mention the trajectory planner run "much faster" than the io and other threads. Is the fastest thing going on in the base thread, or are there special, faster threads reserved for more important work?
[23:24:33] <andypugh> A further limitation is that it is only really safe to use functions and libraries defined in the rtapi directory in the LinuxCNC source tree.
[23:25:21] <seb_kuzminsky> kb1kdw: in answer to your first question (docs about the realtime threads & preemption): i think we don't have written docs about that, sadly
[23:25:26] <kb1kdw> I like safe -- The idea of an over-indexed array causing errant motion is scary.
[23:25:28] <seb_kuzminsky> your questions are always welcome here
[23:25:37] <seb_kuzminsky> (and patches that add the missing docs are welcome too!)
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[23:26:38] <kb1kdw> I will try to keep transcripts of my burning questions so that I or someone can add them to the docs. You only get to be newb once :)
[23:28:08] <seb_kuzminsky> about the second question, no, there are almost always 1 or 2 threads
[23:28:13] <andypugh> I am actually aware that my answers now are less helpful than they were when I knew less.
[23:28:18] <seb_kuzminsky> there is always a servo thread, and sometimes also a base thread
[23:28:49] <seb_kuzminsky> the trajectory planner runs in the servo thread
[23:30:05] <seb_kuzminsky> maybe the documentation you found is talking about the difference between Motion (which includes the trajectory planner, and runs in the realtime "servo" thread) and the part of linuxcnc called "io", which is a non-realtime, userspace process
[23:30:47] <seb_kuzminsky> we only have a few brain cells left after trying to write docs for users, so writing docs for developers nearly always gets dropped...
[23:31:04] <kb1kdw> andypugh: Would you be willing to email the wiki password to me so I can add things?
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[23:36:16] <kwallace2> In case it might be helpful: http://www.nist.gov/manuscript-publication-search.cfm?pub_id=823374 . the second half and appendices are probably more interesting.
[23:36:55] <kb1kdw> What is the linuxcnc-devel irc log file url again? I just tried the wiki and I think the info is old.
[23:38:33] <kwallace2> Somethong like this? http://linuxcnc.mah.priv.at/irc/
[23:39:09] <kwallace2> Ha, something
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[23:40:16] <kb1kdw> yeah, that's it. Thank you. I wanted to copy out what I learned this evening.
[23:41:02] <kwallace2> There are other links and I think a zlog thing.
[23:42:28] <Tom_itx> there are at least 3 logbots in here
[23:42:30] <kb1kdw> zlog? What's that? Is that the name for that thing that chased me in my dream?
[23:42:31] <zlog> kb1kdw: Log stored at http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~tom-itx/irc/logs/%23linuxcnc-devel/2015-02-17.html
[23:42:43] <Tom_itx> kb1kdw you just figured it out :)
[23:53:40] <kb1kdw> Is there some "traditional" way of signaling a buffer is being read and that a base thread should not modify it at that second?
[23:54:24] <kb1kdw> if I have a servo thread component that is using the buffer?
[23:55:08] <kb1kdw> (like an array of a few uints for example)
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