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[00:35:03] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03andy 05master 9af287f 06linuxcnc 10src/hal/components/charge_pump.comp * Add two lower-frequency pins to charge_pump for hardware that expects such.
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[01:27:47] <cradek> can't you make a slower thread of any exact frequency you want?
[01:29:36] <cradek> another interesting question is whether this works during the rollovers (I think it's a signed int by default, right?)
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[01:56:53] <cradek> testing shows that it appears to work
[02:04:31] <seb_kuzminsky> signed, unsigned, shouldnt matter with the bit ops
[02:05:20] <seb_kuzminsky> a slower thread specially for the charge pump seems like it should work, but it's probably in the domain of "more complicated to configure than a charge pump should be"
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[02:36:00] <cradek> as long as it works (and I believe you that it does) I don't have strong hygiene-related objections
[02:36:24] <cradek> so aside from a bit of a weird feeling it's fine and I'll stop thinking about it
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[02:52:22] <jepler> cradek: the way motion creates its two threads it's inconvenient to create a thread of your own of intermediate frequency
[02:53:33] <cradek> oh - I thought it was fine as long as you wanted something slower than the fast thread
[02:53:49] <jepler> threads also have to be created from fastest to slowest
[02:55:05] <cradek> you are right - the manpage says that
[02:55:08] <cradek> I had no idea
[03:00:06] <cradek> unloading and reloading threads to create more than three threads, as the manpage says to do, doesn't work - the original three just disappear
[03:00:16] <cradek> so I have no idea how to even try this
[03:00:28] <jepler> hmm
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[03:02:55] <jepler> seb seems to be right that the & operator on a signed value is defined. I worried that it might be undefined since the C standard is written to allow one's complement and two's complement arithmetic, but clang 3.3 -fsanitize=undefined does not mind the expression '(-1) & 2'
[03:03:22] <jepler> (-1) << 1 is an undefined expression
[03:04:41] <skunkworks> The stock code in axis is a surprisingly good test for these changes. <RobE :)
[03:05:28] <cradek> I also wondered about 1s-c but that's not even a thing anymore is it?
[03:05:53] <cradek> (I guess 10 years ago we thought the whole world was little endian for good...)
[03:07:50] <jepler> The C99 standard explicitly allows for three (!) possibilities of the interpretation of the sign bit
[03:08:34] <jepler> it can negate the value (be an actual sign bit), it can have the weight -(2^(n-1)), or it can have the weight -2^(n)
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[03:09:20] <jepler> & operates on bits, so I think the actual value of (-1) & 2 differs on platforms with these different characteristics, but it would still give 50% the frequency except for a possible discontinuity when changing sign
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[03:12:21] <pzpz> hi
[03:12:43] <jepler> actually that overflow is considered undefined by clang
[03:12:51] <jepler> 5 int i = INT_MAX;
[03:12:52] <jepler> 6 if(i & 2) printf("something about the second low bit\n");
[03:12:52] <jepler> 7 i++;
[03:12:56] <jepler> lowbit.c:7:6: runtime error: signed integer overflow: 2147483647 + 1 cannot be represented in type 'int'
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[03:30:06] <pzpz> hi
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[03:32:36] <pzpz> what is the best way you make a 5 axis cnc, servo spindle, atc folding digitaiser and 2 extruders for 3D printing?
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[03:40:51] <pzpz> ?
[03:40:53] <pzpz> what is the best way you make a 5 axis cnc, servo spindle, atc folding digitaiser and 2 extruders for 3D printing?
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[03:51:44] <kwallace> Carefully.
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[03:56:50] <pzpz> i go lost in the controler
[03:57:22] <pzpz> i make a simple step / dir 3 axis base on lpt
[03:57:31] <pzpz> but i want more...
[03:59:07] <kwallace> You can have more, just add to what you have.
[04:00:04] <pzpz> and i dont know if the linux will support it..
[04:01:25] <pzpz> 13 motors....
[04:01:58] <seb_kuzminsky> pzpz: linuxcnc can manage up to 9 motors for coordinated motion
[04:02:25] <seb_kuzminsky> you can have more than that if you're willing to run them independently of each other (ie, without their motions being coordinated with each other)
[04:03:01] <pzpz> is 5 axis machine
[04:03:30] <pzpz> 2 motor for ATC (1 select too 1 cover)
[04:03:31] <kwallace> that's five plus the extruder motors.
[04:03:46] <pzpz> 2 extruder
[04:04:00] <pzpz> 2 folding the extruders
[04:04:22] <kwallace> ATC motors will most likely just need limit3 not motion.
[04:05:03] <pzpz> waht do you mean by "limit"
[04:05:45] <kwallace> I use the limit component for my carousel.
[04:06:38] <kwallace> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/limit3.9.html
[04:09:48] <kwallace> Oops. I can't find my current .hal file, but limit handles a move from one location to a target location with a velocity ramp a the start and end.
[04:10:51] <kwallace> This is needed because motion is disabled during a tool change, but this may change in the near future.
[04:12:05] <pzpz> 5 axis
[04:12:05] <pzpz> 1 digitaizer fold
[04:12:05] <pzpz> 2 extruder
[04:12:05] <pzpz> 2 extruder fold
[04:12:05] <pzpz> 1 atc
[04:12:06] <pzpz> 1 atc cover
[04:12:08] <pzpz> 1 servo spindle
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[04:14:39] <kwallace> Just the 5 axes and 2 extruders need the motion component. The other motors can use limit.
[04:15:27] <pzpz> so it 7 axis?
[04:15:50] <pzpz> if i add laser
[04:16:04] <pzpz> it is also limit?
[04:17:22] <kwallace> I don't know about extruders. They need to squirt at a rate that matches the XYZ motion. You would need to verify with a GGG guru.
[04:17:57] <kwallace> I think lasers are just on or off.
[04:19:06] <pzpz> i want to add a 10W laser for cutting thin stuff..
[04:21:18] <kwallace> I think the laser on/off can is controlled by a digital I/O g-code word.
[04:21:46] <kwallace> Oops, can be
[04:21:50] <pzpz> but i afraid from refleting - in 10W the reflecting is dangeres to
[04:23:32] <kwallace> You need to have an enclosure that has windows that filter your laser's wave length and safely vent the fumes.
[04:23:37] <pzpz> and you need air
[04:25:43] <pzpz> so laser is someting that i will add last..
[04:26:19] <kwallace> Bottom line is that LinuxCNC can support this if you have integrator level mechanical, electronics and software skills or are willing to learn.
[04:28:05] <pzpz> i'm best in solidworks and mechanic
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[04:28:25] <pzpz> electronics also not bad
[04:29:02] <pzpz> software - i know a bit of python &
[04:29:21] <pzpz> but i work with linux years..
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[04:34:36] <pzpz> kwallace, ^
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[04:41:41] <kwallace> There are some different types of machines here including lasers:
http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Case_Studies
[04:47:05] <pzpz> i see this.
[04:47:06] <pzpz> http://www.anderswallin.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/dc_servo_schematic_2008jan19.pdf
[04:47:49] <pzpz> it use M5i20 but i have much more i/o
[04:48:22] <pzpz> so i'm not sure what card to buy
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[04:52:28] <ju-emb> 5i23 is PCI and has 72 I/Os,
[04:52:50] <ju-emb> some lasers need PWM to regulate the strength
[04:54:14] <ju-emb> and as kwallace say's extruders need coordination with XYZ
[04:54:45] <ju-emb> extruders also need two directions
[04:55:17] <ju-emb> and if you do 3D printing you need PWM for the heater
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[04:57:56] <pzpz> so the 5i23 can do all that?
[04:58:16] <ju-emb> I'm sure yes
[04:58:38] <pzpz> include the PWM?
[04:59:23] <ju-emb> she does it also with quiet good performance, you can use stepper or servo Motors all in hardware
[05:00:11] <ju-emb> look at the hm2 component
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[05:00:48] <pzpz> what is the "hm2 component"
[05:02:52] <pzpz> http://pastebin.com/zMcBVz1B
[05:03:29] <pzpz> ju-emb, this is the complate spaces that i want..
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[05:03:54] <ju-emb> just looking at it
[05:04:36] <pzpz> by servo i mean G320X driver is ok for me..
[05:06:36] <pzpz> about the atc and the folding motors - i think stepper will be also ok
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[05:11:49] <ju-emb> That are some I/Os more than 5i23 has, so you need 5i22 it has 96 I/Os
[05:11:52] <ju-emb> have a look at the hostmot here
[05:11:54] <ju-emb> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/2.4/html/drivers_hostmot2.html
[05:12:18] <ju-emb> point 1.2 Firmware Binaries
[05:13:27] <pzpz> how you calculate the I/Os?
[05:13:47] <pzpz> motor = 2 i/o?
[05:14:03] <ju-emb> no
[05:14:27] <ju-emb> each on/off is one I/O
[05:15:46] <ju-emb> motors is:
[05:15:49] <ju-emb> for steppers
[05:15:51] <ju-emb> Enable, Step, Direction
[05:15:53] <ju-emb> for each stepper, here the enable could be a common for all steppers
[05:16:11] <pzpz> Enable?
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[05:16:28] <ju-emb> that's to energize the drivers
[05:16:39] <pzpz> in the G302x i see only Step, Direction
[05:19:07] <pzpz> what do you mean by "energize the driver" the driver get the power from it's own power supplly
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[05:20:59] <ju-emb> yes, but if the driver is energized, the motor doesn't turn without a signal to turn
[05:22:28] <ju-emb> if you de-energize them, you can move the motor by hand or a mechanical handle or something. that's impossible if the driver keeps the motor energized
[05:24:22] <ju-emb> on the Geckos that signal is called Disable
[05:24:57] <ju-emb> so if you use a Gecko you have Disable, Step Dir
[05:25:33] <ju-emb> But, as I say'd, the disable can be the same signal for all Stepper drivers
[05:26:04] <ju-emb> Servos need some more I/Os
[05:28:28] <ju-emb> depend on the servo drive you use you have several I/Os for PWM signals and at least 2 or 3 I/Os for the encoder
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[05:30:07] <pzpz> the encoder not connect to the G320X?
[05:33:35] <ju-emb> G320 is a Step Dir drive
[05:34:20] <pzpz> it is not ok?
[05:34:57] <ju-emb> yes, from LCNC's point of view it is a stepper
[05:35:52] <pzpz> ok.. so how i can make a real sevo..
[05:36:00] <pzpz> servo*
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[05:39:49] <ju-emb> servo in the real application of it's word can be a lot of systems:
[05:40:34] <ju-emb> Servo drive say's only, that it is a motor with feedback connected to a controller who handles that
[05:42:13] <ju-emb> So in general you have the encoder connected to the controller and the controller gives you a PWM signal for the Motor Amplifier
[05:48:50] <ju-emb> what is "2 extruder folding motors" in your description?
[05:53:17] <pzpz> 2 stepper motor that folde the extruders up when it's not used.
[05:55:28] <pzpz> so what you say is i can get a dro in EMC2?
[05:56:11] <pzpz> 5 axis dro - soo cool
[05:57:34] <ju-emb> For all what you like to include in your machine, I don't think there is another option to linuxcnc ;-)
[05:58:58] <pzpz> my work is linux..
[05:59:59] <ju-emb> what ever that means, emc2 it's name is linuxcnc for quiet a while now
[06:00:40] <pzpz> i work with emc2 in 2009..
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[06:01:19] <pzpz> on 3 axis stepper dereml machine. and lpt.
[06:01:33] <ju-emb> so you know how flexible it is.
[06:01:42] <pzpz> no
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[06:02:16] <pzpz> for me it was like copy paste.
[06:03:33] <ju-emb> it's really flexible, your limit is your imagination and the money you're willing to spend for I/Os you need
[06:05:05] <pzpz> f*ck i have imagination but no money..
[06:05:44] <ju-emb> Your actual project, I recommend a Mesa card, it blows quiet a lot of headache away
[06:05:44] <pzpz> but it is berrer then money and no imagination...
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[06:06:13] <ju-emb> so you can use your imagination to make money
[06:06:58] <pzpz> no.. i make money in IT..
[06:07:06] <pzpz> cnc is a hobby..
[06:07:42] <pzpz> so i make a part list now
[06:08:00] <pzpz> mesa card 5i22
[06:08:48] <ju-emb> what size you plan for your machine?
[06:08:58] <pzpz> G0704
[06:09:39] <pzpz> i live in the 3 floor
[06:10:01] <pzpz> and it is wood floor..
[06:11:25] <pzpz> too big / havy machine will make hole in the floor / i cant take it on the stairs
[06:12:23] <ju-emb> bbl
[06:13:10] <pzpz> what is bbl?
[06:13:19] <pzpz> be back later?
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[13:51:04] <skunkworks> logger[mah]_,
[13:51:05] <logger[mah]_> skunkworks: Log stored at
http://linuxcnc.mah.priv.at/irc/%23linuxcnc-devel/2013-11-12.html
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[15:39:36] <seb_kuzminsky> cradek: i'm ready to push a driver for the Delta VFD-B, a standard modbus VFD:
http://www.delta.com.tw/product/em/drive/ac_motor/ac_motor_product.asp?pid=1&cid=1&itid=2
[15:39:44] <seb_kuzminsky> do you want it in 2.5?
[15:40:23] <cradek> is there anything complicated about packaging it?
[15:40:36] <seb_kuzminsky> nope, it's pretty straightforward
[15:40:42] <cradek> then sure
[15:40:46] <seb_kuzminsky> ok :-)
[15:45:05] <seb_kuzminsky> i think this will be the first commit by Yishin Li in our repo, always nice to have new developers joining in
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[15:46:22] <cradek> awesome
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[16:00:25] <seb_kuzminsky> style question!
[16:00:59] <seb_kuzminsky> the vfdb driver was created by modifying the vfs11 driver (another modbus vfd driver in our tree)
[16:01:27] <seb_kuzminsky> the vfdb driver lacks many features of the vfs11 driver (or maybe those features were incomplete in the vfs11 driver too)
[16:01:45] <seb_kuzminsky> i removed all the dead code (lots of unused hal pins, for example)
[16:02:16] <seb_kuzminsky> would it be clearer to have one easily inspected & verified commit for each thing i remove, or should i squash all 10 or so pin removals into one commit?
[16:24:16] <ju-emb> if I write a component, is there a way to determine what's the actual path where the ini and hal files reside the actual application is started from?
[16:24:18] <ju-emb> I mean is there a variable or so passed to the component, or have I do this by hand?
[16:28:22] <cradek> seb_kuzminsky: I think separate would be slightly easier for review, but I don't think much review is needed if the final result works
[16:32:18] <cradek> ju-emb: what are you trying to do exactly, where you need that information?
[16:33:47] <seb_kuzminsky> ju-emb: the ini file name is in the INIFILE environment variable
[16:34:53] <ju-emb> on init the component, I need to read a table of values from a file, and I like this file to reside in the same location as the actual configuration
[16:35:33] <ju-emb> so I give just the filename as parameter, not the complete path
[16:36:41] <cradek> you are writing a userspace component, not realtime?
[16:36:50] <ju-emb> right
[16:37:03] <cradek> aha
[16:38:31] <seb_kuzminsky> cradek: hrm, i changed the way modbus stuff gets built in master vs 2.5 (2.5 still has the old cloned copy of the libmodbus source, master uses the upstream deb)
[16:38:58] <cradek> ju-emb: I think the ini directory is the cwd, so you don't have to worry about it
[16:38:58] <seb_kuzminsky> the vfd-b driver uses the upstream deb version of libmodbus
[16:39:14] <seb_kuzminsky> so this will take som emore thinking
[16:39:26] <cradek> seb_kuzminsky: darn
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[17:37:56] <andypugh> seb_kuzminsky: I just noticed that the "no firmware specified" error is only raised if there is no config string, not if there is no firmware specified. Shouldn't the check be after hm2_parse_config_string ?
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[17:41:45] <ju-emb> I hate coding in a ssh env!
[17:41:48] <ju-emb> what kernel you guys recommend running on a ubuntu 12.04 machine to build and test code for lcnc?
[17:43:23] <seb_kuzminsky> andypugh: maybe it should use the same check as below? if ((llio->program_fpga != NULL) && (hm2->config.firmware != NULL)) {
[17:43:38] <seb_kuzminsky> err, but with the right number of !'s removed & added etc
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[17:44:24] <seb_kuzminsky> ju-emb: i use the stock ubuntu precise kernel for all my sim builds, and the rtai pre-release testing kernel for running real hardware
[17:44:56] <seb_kuzminsky> ju-emb:
http://highlab.com/~seb/linuxcnc/rtai-for-3.4-prerelease/
[17:45:19] <ju-emb> thanks seb
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[17:56:12] <andypugh> Seb, Yes, that was what I was thinking.
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[18:48:36] <pzpz> hi
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[19:39:59] <seb_kuzminsky> cradek: we'd have to add a new build-dependency to 2.5 in order to get the vfd-b driver in
[19:40:12] <seb_kuzminsky> and if we did, we'd also get the vfs11 driver
[19:40:45] <seb_kuzminsky> the new dependency would be on libmodbus-dev, which we have in our deb archive on l.o, and which we use in master currently
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[19:46:49] <seb_kuzminsky> it seems like adding a new build dependency this late in the 2.5 branch is a bad idea, even if it's a pretty safe one
[19:47:12] <seb_kuzminsky> so my inclination would be to not put vfd-b (and vfs11) in 2.5, and just have them in master instead
[19:49:47] <jepler> seb_kuzminsky: makes sense to me
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[22:37:18] <pzpz> i'm starting to make wiring diagram for the mesa 5i22
[22:42:43] <ju-emb> once you are on doing planning wiring, keep in mind that the mesa cards have that 50Pin headers, so you need some sort of PCB soldering connecting them to your machine
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[22:53:46] <andypugh> ju-emb: Not necessarily.
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[22:56:47] <ju-emb> pzpz mentioned last night, he's short on money, maybe he prefer soldering over buying ;-)
[22:57:56] <andypugh> Bear with me.
[22:58:49] <andypugh> http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/pcb-connector-housings/6812865/
[22:59:17] <andypugh> Are two-row discrete-wire to header connectors.
[22:59:54] <andypugh> You do need a very small W-crimping too, and the crimps need to be bought separately, but they work well.
[23:02:14] <ju-emb> experience I have is, that those flat cables are the weak point if they are not right connected
[23:02:26] <andypugh> Not flat
[23:03:41] <Tom_itx> C-Grid
[23:03:41] <Tom_itx> that's what those are
[23:03:46] <Tom_itx> if you were to buy them from dk or mouser
[23:03:51] <andypugh> They are listed as Harwin M20
[23:04:12] <andypugh> I am trying to get a picture...
[23:04:44] <Tom_itx> i've used the connectors as singles and put shrinkwrap around them as well
[23:05:33] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/how_to/atmega168/breadboard_basic_side.jpg
[23:05:38] <Tom_itx> somewhat the reverse of that
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[23:10:20] <andypugh> Tom_itx: Exactly like this, then?
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Til4cZnLeEZ6Y2jizdn8-tMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink
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[23:11:34] <andypugh> I made it all rewirable to guarantee I never wanted to :-)
[23:12:22] <Tom_itx> yeah but not all my female pins have shrouds on them, rather just shrinkwrap
[23:12:34] <Tom_itx> i think yours may be as well but hard to see
[23:13:19] <Tom_itx> the ones i wired straight to the 7i43 2nd 50 pin header
[23:13:30] <andypugh> It's not clear, but yes. The box-headers for the ribbon cables all link to a single row of pin headers on the board, and then wired with cromps + heatshrink go to each pin.
[23:13:39] <andypugh> And that is a 7i43.
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[23:14:36] <andypugh> But I wanted some isolation for some relays and such, There are a couple of ULN2003 chips on the board.
[23:15:12] <Tom_itx> i _was_ gonna add a 7i84 for stuff like that
[23:15:28] <Tom_itx> wired in to the 7i47
[23:15:54] <Tom_itx> and pendant stuff
[23:17:45] <ju-emb> andypugh: what crimp tool do you use for that? The original Harwin?
[23:18:12] <Tom_itx> i got a cheap one from Radio Shack
[23:18:30] <andypugh> Me too. (Well, from Rapid, actually)
[23:19:17] <Tom_itx> http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103683
[23:19:33] <Tom_itx> they're pretty cheap... i broke one
[23:19:38] <Tom_itx> at the hinge
[23:20:32] <andypugh> I think I use this one:
http://www.rapidonline.com/Tools-Equipment/Ratchet-Action-Crimp-Tool-Ht225d-85-0262/?sid=a066007d-87c5-4e0d-bf01-7e4a2ed39760
[23:21:17] <andypugh> But there are chaper ones.
[23:21:25] <andypugh> (And ones about 10x the price, too)
[23:21:32] <Tom_itx> yup
[23:22:51] <ju-emb> 10x the price like the one from Harwin on Mouser
[23:25:41] <Tom_itx> if you use the housing, make sure you get the pins from the same place as they are not all created equal
[23:29:41] <andypugh> Here are some individual wires in a housing connected to a Mesa 7i43 for some testing I was doing.
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/SGrK4YGriunJFEgryZ9votMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink
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[23:34:25] <Tom_itx> not done wireing but some on the right here going to a bundle
http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/cnc/psu/control5.jpg
[23:34:41] <Tom_itx> not a very good pic
[23:35:31] <Tom_itx> you can see my smps for the logic there on the left
[23:36:03] <Tom_itx> the cap in the middle is from a centertap off one of the xfrmrs with a diode
[23:36:33] <Tom_itx> knocks it down to 24v... within the smps input limits
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[23:54:33] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03andy 05master 739df95 06linuxcnc 10src/hal/drivers/mesa-hostmot2/hostmot2.c
[23:54:33] <KGB-linuxcnc> Hostmot2: Don't report an error when no firmware is specified for cards that don't need firmware
[23:56:38] <ju-emb> KGB-linuxcnc: are you the Mesa Card specialist here?
[23:56:38] <KGB-linuxcnc> ju-emb: My master told me to not respond.
[23:57:39] <andypugh> The Mesa card specialist is PCW. But I know a fair bit too.
[23:58:02] <andypugh> KGB-linuxcnc: id just the Buildbot reporting on recent updates to the code.
[23:58:02] <KGB-linuxcnc> andypugh: My master told me to not respond.
[23:58:20] <andypugh> And as you can see KGB-linuxcnc is very rude
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[23:59:51] <ju-emb> I see, ;-)
[23:59:54] <ju-emb> I'm curious how the parallel interface works on one of that (I think is the 7i43 or so), that connects to a parport driver
