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[00:09:42] <jepler> add last number
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[00:38:08] <skunkworks> jepler: ?
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[00:54:28] <cradek> all that talk finally made me set up my public gitweb and git://
[00:58:33] <CaptHindsight> nothing like walking into 6" of water in your shop after a rainstorm
[00:58:51] <cradek> eek
[01:04:16] <CaptHindsight> everyone has had been able to reproduce the same page fault issues trying RT-PREEMPT with Linuxcnc and any 3.x kernels for debian or roll-your-own
[01:05:31] <CaptHindsight> Lars seems to know what the problem is
[01:06:02] <CaptHindsight> it looks like the memory needs to be pre-faulted and it's not actually happening
[01:07:07] <CaptHindsight> Xenomai .deb packages also have the same latency / pagefault issues
[01:07:48] <CaptHindsight> zultron: have you seen anything different with your tree?
[01:11:02] <jepler> skunkworks: oops, that was intended to be to my other irc channel
[01:11:27] <jepler> skunkworks: I have an irc bot on a private network that receives caller ID information and can automatically hang up on unwanted callers.
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[01:37:57] <skunkworks> ah :)
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[01:50:23] <skunkworks> CaptHindsight: I have run the xenomai on a few machines. with idle=poll the latency usually stays under 10us
[01:51:01] <skunkworks> (but other machines have terrible latency ;) )
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[03:04:41] <CaptHindsight> skunkworks: xenomai with what kernel version?
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[03:06:13] <CaptHindsight> skunkworks: what was the hardware that had <10uS latency jitter with xenomai?
[03:19:06] <skunkworks> CaptHindsight: linux-image-3.5.7-xenomai-2.6.2.1
[03:19:19] <skunkworks> don't remember the hardware - will check tomorrow
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[03:29:09] <skunkworks> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?XenomaiKernelPackages
[03:31:33] <CaptHindsight> skunkworks: thanks
[03:32:59] <CaptHindsight> we'll take a look at that tomorrow
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[03:36:32] <CaptHindsight> with the Live CD we get ~5uS on AMD athlon_II's and the newer socket FX2 APU's
[03:37:09] <CaptHindsight> we just don't have the drivers for the newer hardware in the old 2.x kernels
[03:38:45] <CaptHindsight> once we sort this out we'll have the RT 3.8 kernels on x86 with all the new GPU hardware accell
[03:39:23] <CaptHindsight> just in time to have the UI over the network on a separate machine
[03:39:47] <CaptHindsight> so Linuxcnc will have support either way
[03:40:04] <CaptHindsight> local GPU with accel or UI over the network
[03:41:23] <CaptHindsight> Zultron must have fixed the linking problems and the page fault bugs
[03:42:53] <CaptHindsight> then we'll look at coreboot to have optimized firmware on x86 on a few popular and readily mainboards
[03:43:13] <CaptHindsight> readily available
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[11:24:33] <skunkworks> zultron, when you get a chance. I did a fresh install of 12.04 and followed the directions from here
http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?XenomaiKernelPackages
[11:25:03] <skunkworks> the xenomai kernel is installed and working.
[11:25:58] <skunkworks> I then was able to apt-get install linux-headers-3.5.7-xenomai-2.6.2.1
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[11:33:14] <skunkworks> I still get this error
http://pastebin.ca/2409628
[11:34:08] <skunkworks> when I try to do a make menuconfig from these directions.
[11:49:27] <skunkworks> Ok - I think I got it doing empire@empire-System-Product-Name:~/rtnet-0.9.13$ ./configure --with-linux=/usr/src/linux-headers-3.5.7-xenomai-2.6.2.1
[11:54:11] <jepler> skunkworks: pastebin the contents of config.log, it may have additional clues.
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[11:57:20] <jepler> did you install a linux-headers package in xenomai flavor? it would be called something like linux-headers-3.5.7-xenomai-2.6.2.1
[11:58:34] <jepler> if not, try installing that with apt-get and the configure rtnet again
[12:06:44] <jepler> oh wait you said you think you got it going. yay.
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[12:09:40] <skunkworks> sort of well yes
[12:11:18] <skunkworks> I ended up creating a symlink to the xenomai headers (so the rtnet could find it normally.) otherwise I didn't know how to tell it which config to use and it installed rtnet into the usr/local/rtnet instead of usr/rtnet acording to the wiki
[12:14:17] <jepler> probably the wiki failed to mention to use --prefix=/usr
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[12:14:59] <jepler> bbl
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[12:17:35] <skunkworks> so - do you think doing a make and then a sudo make install twice will cause issues? one seems to be installed in user/local/rtnet and one in user/rtnet?
[12:19:20] <skunkworks> (I guess time will tell) :)
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[12:21:14] <jepler> yes that will give you two copies in different places
[12:21:26] <jepler> you will want to remove the other one
[12:23:03] <skunkworks> can I just delete it? or is there a magic incatation?
[12:23:12] <skunkworks> incantation?
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[12:27:10] <jepler> no there's no generic incantation. that's why "make install" sucks and debs are great, because you can uninstall debs
[12:27:23] <jepler> you can try "make uninstall" but only a minority of packages support this.
[12:28:24] <jepler> it looks like maybe rtnet has "make uninstall". You'd ./configure without the --prefix argument and then "make uninstall" to clean up the install you don't want
[12:29:32] <jepler> bbl really this time
[12:32:23] <skunkworks> Thanks
[12:35:02] <skunkworks> This cannot be right - it is pulling from the linuxcnc git repo and then trying to switch to the rtos integration
[12:35:04] <skunkworks> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Mesa7i80_Driver_For_Linuxcnc_On_Xenomai
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[12:39:07] <skunkworks> yeck...
http://pastebin.ca/2409750
[12:40:44] <skunkworks> heh - this may be above my pay grade. The make file must have changed since this was tested
[12:42:56] <zultron> skunkworks, gotta take wife + kid to school. Ping me in an hour if you're still around & I'll take a look.
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[13:38:01] <zultron> skunkworks, glad you got it going. Nope, different schools. 2-year-old goes to University of Texas, wife goes to daycare.
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[13:38:42] <zultron> Or the other way 'round....
[13:39:49] <zultron> What're you doing with rtnet? Is it worth packaging for others?
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[13:48:13] <zultron> Looks like someone took steps toward packaging rtnet with RTAI:
http://trainsim.ebvmultimedia.net/en/downloads/rtai-rtnet
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[14:16:46] <jepler> zultron: I'm not sure what skunkworks is up to, but at least a few of the mesa ethernet cards were floating around at the linuxcnc fest event last week.
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[14:23:12] <Guest81519> what is vismach.py used for? Is this the code that shows a physical machine moving in 3D space as it machines? I think I saw a video of a robot moving around, I was just wondering if that's what vismach.py is used for
[14:23:12] <cradek> yes
[14:23:12] <jepler> Guest81519: look at configs/vismach for runnable examples
[14:24:15] <Guest81519> ok, but this code isn't used for the standard preview or backplot showing up on screen, only for showing the extra machine in the view i suppose...
[14:24:59] <jepler> yes I believe that is accurate
[14:26:28] <jepler> it would be interesting to integrate vismach into the standard axis plot window, but to my knowledge nobody's done that.
[14:26:48] <Guest81519> yea that sounds like a cool addition
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[14:29:37] <Guest81519> is opengltk.py where all the axis plot stuff originates?
[14:30:33] <Guest81519> i looked at glcanon.py and axis.py, seems to be the bulk of it, wasn't sure if it all starts with opengltk.py tho
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[14:31:25] <jepler> the code is a bit scattered around. I think opengltk.py has a class which is the base class of both the vismach renderer and the axis preview
[14:31:48] <jepler> glcanon is where most of the python smarts about displaying gcode are so that they can be shared between axis and gremlin
[14:32:12] <jepler> axis.py probably still has more that could be moved to be shared with gremlin
[14:32:46] <Guest81519> axis uses gremlin as well? I thought it was a separate backplot used for other GUIs?
[14:33:48] <jepler> axis and gremlin both use some shared code
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[14:37:38] <skunkworks> zultron, yes - I am trying to get a 7i80 working.
[14:38:19] <skunkworks> so - I think I am to the point of applying the patch - but enought has changed on the rtos preview3 that the patch doesn't apply
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[14:40:00] <micges> skunkworks: I'm working on it
[14:40:16] <skunkworks> micges, Cool - thanks
[14:40:56] <skunkworks> I assume I have to change which card is loaded/unloaded in the star_net.sh
[14:41:09] <micges> sorry when I was doing patch I haven't access to repo, and I was thinking preview3 branch will not be changed
[14:41:10] <skunkworks> (and stop_net.sh)
[14:45:58] <Guest81519> oh ok, but axis doesn't call anything from within gremlin, they both call shared code
[14:46:27] <jepler> I think that's right. the "gremlin" side is stuff about gtk and the axis side is stuff about its graphical toolkit, tk
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[15:25:50] <micges> skunkworks: try this patch:
http://pastebin.com/aRKTi1R7
[15:26:05] <micges> skunkworks: and use rtos-master-v0 branch
[15:26:18] <skunkworks> ok
[15:26:22] <skunkworks> give me a few :)
[15:26:56] <skunkworks> (I am compiling the normal preview - just to make sure everything is working
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[15:28:57] <micges> ok
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[15:33:43] <micges> skunkworks: I've updated wiki
[15:34:19] <skunkworks> is that the top level of git? or how do I select rtos-master-v0
[15:34:24] <skunkworks> micges, thanks
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[15:35:25] <skunkworks> micges, also - the git clone on the wiki is wrong isn't it? shouldn't it be pulling from
[15:35:30] <skunkworks> git clone git://git.mah.priv.at/emc2-dev.git linuxcnc-rtos
[15:35:44] <micges> jas
[15:37:19] <micges> now
[15:37:59] <skunkworks> cool - but still - is this correct? git clone git://git.linuxcnc.org/git/linuxcnc.git linuxcnc-rtnet
[15:38:34] <micges> yes
[15:38:56] <skunkworks> I didn't think the rtos stuff is on the linuxcnc.org repository...
[15:39:04] <micges> ah sorry, fixing...
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[15:39:21] <skunkworks> ok - good. I thought I was missing something :)
[15:39:29] <skunkworks> Ok - I will try this
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[15:40:20] <micges> wait - it should be linuxcnc-rtnet
[15:40:45] <micges> rtos stuff is on linuxcnc.org repo
[15:40:55] <micges> just not in main branches
[15:41:22] <micges> skunkworks: this is correct -> git clone git://git.linuxcnc.org/git/linuxcnc.git linuxcnc-rtnet
[15:41:50] <micges> (I need more coffee... brb)
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[15:47:59] <skunkworks> oh
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[15:49:00] <skunkworks> micges, also - should I do a sudo make setuid after make
[15:49:35] <micges> it was not needed
[15:49:52] <jepler> if you are directed to by make then you should.
[15:50:12] <micges> ok so do it :)
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[15:51:16] <skunkworks> heh
[15:52:13] <micges> I remember why it was not needed, becouse you must run linuxcnc with sudo
[15:52:37] <cradek> ?
[15:53:03] <micges> for loading rtnet
[15:53:33] <micges> I didn't had time to find more elegant solution
[15:53:41] <skunkworks> could that be setuid'ed then also? (I don't know exactly how this works.)
[15:53:56] <skunkworks> they are just insmod'ed modules - are they not?
[15:54:09] <cradek> we have module_helper for that task
[15:54:10] <micges> yes
[15:54:37] <cradek> that's what halcmd loadrt uses
[15:55:31] <micges> yes but I cannot load anything from other dir that rtlib
[15:55:50] <micges> I've fight with this some timwe
[15:56:28] <skunkworks> if I pull from git clone git://git.linuxcnc.org/git/linuxcnc.git linuxcnc-rtnet
[15:56:47] <micges> cradek: my first idea was to simply add line 'loadrt rtnet'
[15:58:23] <skunkworks> never mind :)
[16:01:21] <jepler> two notes: in userspace rtoses, 'loadrt' will of course not actually load a kernel modle and 'module-helper' won't exist
[16:01:36] <jepler> +u
[16:02:07] <skunkworks> this is the end of make
[16:02:08] <skunkworks> http://pastebin.ca/2409921
[16:02:11] <jepler> anyway, ignoring both those issues you could add 'rtnet' to the module_whitelist[] in module_helper.c
[16:02:52] <jepler> skunkworks: you need libboost-serialization-dev and libboost-thread-dev packages
[16:02:58] <micges> jepler: doesn't work
[16:03:26] <jepler> oh and also that module must be from one of the paths listed in path_whitelist
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[16:04:05] <jepler> you still won't be able to loadrt it, because loadrt actually assumes a hal component (or at least rtapi module) will be created as a result but you could loadusr -w module_helper ...
[16:04:08] <skunkworks> ok - my dependancy list is getting longer and longer :)
[16:04:12] <jepler> and it doesn't solve the unloading problem either
[16:05:03] <micges> jepler: I've created insmod hal command to do that
[16:05:27] <jepler> that sounds reasonably sane
[16:05:29] <jepler> does it handle the eventual unload?
[16:05:42] <micges> jepler: I'll back to developing driver in few days, I'll test all it again
[16:05:50] <micges> yes
[16:05:54] <jepler> nice.
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[16:07:33] <micges> jepler: code for that is somewhere local, if after checking while_list as you said it will work then they go into devel branch
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[16:11:09] <zultron> Ugh, you guys are still using rtos3. ;( Sorry to report that some of this is changing in my branch; e.g. no module_whitelist(), and stacks of changes to configure.in, Makefiles and rtapi.conf/realtime.
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[16:12:10] <jepler> skunkworks/micges: is this xenomai kernel or xenomai userspace you're working with?
[16:12:11] <zultron> I'll be happy to help with the merges, though....
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[16:12:31] <micges> yep, xeno userspace
[16:12:45] <jepler> zultron: will module_helper be built for xeno userspace?
[16:12:53] <jepler> .. just without a whitelist, or what?
[16:13:03] <zultron> No, not necessary for userthreads
[16:13:11] <jepler> it is if you have to load a kernel module for rtnet .. ?
[16:13:27] <zultron> Hold on, let me make sure I'm not talking crap.
[16:13:31] <skunkworks> jepler, I don't know?
http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Mesa7i80_Driver_For_Linuxcnc_On_Xenomai
[16:13:50] <zultron> For kernel module loading, the realtime script handles everything.
[16:13:53] <skunkworks> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?XenomaiKernelPackages
[16:14:10] <jepler> zultron: via setuid module_helper or something else/new?
[16:15:01] <zultron> Argh, I'll have to go back and look, this is all pre-Fest & fog sets in quickly....
[16:15:02] <jepler> that's OK, don't feel like you have to do it right now
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[16:15:59] <jepler> by the way the module whitelist is pretty weak protection, since by running a standard component you can inspect and alter any kernel space memory a s32 at a time..
[16:16:07] <zultron> Ah yes, the realtime scripts locate modules & use the setuid module_helper to load them.
[16:16:27] <zultron> Yes, I got rid of the white/blacklists for a bunch of reasons.
[16:16:43] <zultron> Now there's no protection at all. :-/
[16:16:55] <jepler> I always sort of meant to write a demonstration of this but was too tired to figure out how to do something "useful"
[16:18:32] <zultron> module_helper isn't mine, but I've revamped the realtime/rtapi.conf scripts. I'm open to suggestions for how to get module_helper to do the right thing.
[16:20:04] <zultron> For RIP builds, the user needs sudo, so all bets are off anyway.
[16:20:10] <jepler> later on let's have a look how micges's 'halcmd insmod' would play with a whitelist-free 'module_helper'
[16:20:48] <cradek> it's still important that the user not be required to run ALL of linuxcnc as root. that leads to all sorts of horribleness
[16:21:01] <jepler> and yes, what cradek said
[16:21:20] <micges> I agree
[16:21:23] <jepler> it's more about not creating permissions nightmares for files you incidentally manipulate while running linuxcnc
[16:21:29] <zultron> For installs, I'm planning to put kmodules into /lib/modules/`uname -r`/linuxcnc, which module_helper could put in a whitelist.
[16:21:33] <cradek> "just make them have sudo without a password" was one wrong way very old installs handled it
[16:21:35] <jepler> and less about preventing harm to the os installation
[16:21:45] <jepler> since the real opportunity for harm is out in the machine tool anyway!
[16:21:51] <cradek> zultron: ah that sounds perfectly fine
[16:22:31] <jepler> zultron: one wrinkle we saw with putting linuxcnc modules under /lib/modules/ was that the kernel would autoload them at boot time
[16:22:42] <zultron> RTAI throws a wrench into that plan, since by default it doesn't put its modules in a standard place.
[16:23:06] <zultron> jepler, really? Why were they autoloaded?
[16:23:08] <micges> we need some whay to add/remove rtnet installation directory to/from white list
[16:23:27] <jepler> zultron: my memory says it was hostmot2 and because it specified a pci device table in the proper way
[16:23:38] <jepler> kernel says "oh I will load the driver for your hardware which you have"
[16:24:50] <zultron> micges, and jepler, I'm not too experienced with this, but for example the Fedora Packaging Guidelines, before they outright banned external kernel module packages, required modules to go under /lib/modules/`uname -r`. Anyone know what Debian requires there?
[16:25:51] <zultron> jepler, that sounds right. Seems silly to install modules in the usual place, but then create an entry in /etc/modprobe.d banning them. :P
[16:27:37] <jepler> no, I don't know what debian requires
[16:28:25] <zultron> Can the kernel drivers be made to behave well under that scenario? That is, be loaded early like other hardware drivers, and simply be there when LinuxCNC needs them?
[16:28:41] <jepler> not really
[16:28:50] <jepler> to load hostmot2.ko you have to load hal.ko
[16:29:01] <jepler> so you end up with a "running" hal when you boot the system
[16:29:04] <zultron> Ah, I see.
[16:29:52] <zultron> So if I insist on /lib/modules/`uname -r`, I'll also need a modprobe.d file to blacklist them. :P
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[16:31:00] <jepler> there may be some other way to specify the pci device table so that they would not autoload ..?
[16:31:12] <jepler> honestly I don't know much about this except that something is tickling my brain
[16:31:21] <jepler> haven't found any commits about it in git yet
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[16:32:00] <cradek> I bet seb remembers. I recall a lot of suffering figuring it out in the early hm2 days
[16:32:23] <zultron> seb_kuzminsky, ^^^. ;)
[16:32:59] <zultron> bbl
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[16:37:55] <skunkworks> http://pastebin.ca/2410006
[16:37:57] <skunkworks> micges,
[16:40:36] <micges> skunkworks: hmm, pastebin output from 'lsmod'
[16:42:10] <skunkworks> http://pastebin.ca/2410007
[16:42:43] <skunkworks> I am using the rt_eepro100.ko
[16:42:49] <skunkworks> brb
[16:43:46] <micges> try 'sudo rmmod e100'
[16:43:52] <micges> then start lcnc
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[16:54:09] <cradek> 1 Jul 2008 thread on -devel, "hostmot2 firmware loading"
[16:54:31] <jepler> http://mid.gmane.org/BLU117-W16B9E70B115E013F542845C09E0%40phx.gbl
[16:54:44] <jepler> >>> Hardy is here and it's
[16:54:47] <jepler> time to move on
[16:54:50] <jepler> hah
[16:55:22] <cradek> whee
[16:58:07] <seb_kuzminsky> wow that feels like a long time ago
[16:59:04] <seb_kuzminsky> i remember the same thing jepler remembers: the pci table specified the hm2_pci driver for the anyio boards, and the system autoloaded them at boot time
[16:59:13] <seb_kuzminsky> i think jepler fixed it
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[17:15:20] <skunkworks> micges, same error
[17:16:51] <micges> skunkworks: run 'lspci -v' and see what driver is connected to board you want to use
[17:19:51] <skunkworks> http://pastebin.ca/2410027
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[17:27:25] <tjtr33> jepler i am getting the seeed logic analyzer. and have some progress on the Absolute A encoder.
[17:27:26] <tjtr33> what front end did you use? (maybe PgsLookAndFeel from the sump.org?)
[17:28:16] <skunkworks> tjtr33, are you tom P?
[17:28:27] <Tom_itx> have you looked at the saleae analyzer?
[17:28:34] <Tom_itx> i've got one and like it
[17:28:41] <Tom_itx> especially the software
[17:29:07] <Tom_itx> i suppose the seeed one has improved quite a bit since i looked at them
[17:29:29] <micges> skunkworks: did rmmod works?
[17:29:31] <tjtr33> skunk yep, was tomp3 staggerlytomp now tjtr33
[17:29:42] <skunkworks> micges, I think so - e100 doesn
[17:30:01] <skunkworks> doesn't show up lsmod
[17:30:17] <skunkworks> tjtr33, thanks for the use of your clips and scope!
[17:31:51] <tjtr33> np, how the accupins?
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[17:32:16] <skunkworks> I have not revisited them yet :)
[17:32:39] <micges> skunkworks: pastebin output from dmesg
[17:32:58] <mozmck> Tom_itx: I agree on the Saleae analyzer - it is great.
[17:34:08] <tjtr33> skunkworks, well jepler's little logic analyzer was the best attack, my scope info was not as useful. i got the python to identify the packets and am de-machesterizing now.
[17:35:02] <skunkworks> micges, one second..
http://pastebin.ca/2410040
[17:36:42] <skunkworks> micges,
http://pastebin.ca/2410041
[17:37:15] <seb_kuzminsky> zultron: i'll unpack my rtos build machine and give your new kernel builder a try tonight
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[17:43:49] <micges> skunkworks: sorry I don't have that board to test
[17:45:41] <micges> skunkworks: open terminal
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[17:50:31] <skunkworks> ok
[17:51:26] <pcw_home> looks like the rtnet script is setup for a RTK-8139
[17:53:42] <skunkworks> pcw_home, I edited it to use rt_eepro100.ko
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[17:56:55] <pcw_home> [ 3306.444583] RTnet: initialising real-time networking
[17:56:57] <pcw_home> [ 3306.495629] rt_8139too Fast Ethernet driver 0.9.24-rt0.7
[17:56:58] <pcw_home> [ 3309.678836] RTnet: unloaded
[17:57:00] <pcw_home> is odd then
[17:58:12] <pcw_home> is it possible linux's e100 driver needs to be blacklisted? (or whatever you do to disable it)
[17:58:43] <skunkworks> http://pastebin.ca/2410054
[17:59:17] <skunkworks> micges, it loaded the the card driver!
[18:02:12] <micges> ok
[18:02:52] <micges> skunkworks: what is your 7i80 ip?
[18:03:03] <skunkworks> I remarked out the script loading of those (so it starts with up
[18:03:14] <skunkworks> and get the same error
[18:03:25] <skunkworks> the default 192.168.1.121
[18:05:53] <micges> skunkworks: pm
[18:10:30] <jepler> tjtr33: I looked at several of the front ends.. but I don't remember which one I was using when capturing that trace at fest.
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[18:11:32] <jepler> tjtr33: I suspect it was this one:
http://www.lxtreme.nl/ols/
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[18:11:54] <jepler> I certainly have not investigated all the possibilities ..
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[18:14:08] <IchGuckLive> hi is there a info on the TK module to display a mashine sim somwhere
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[18:27:02] <tjtr33> jepler, thx, that looks like it ( if i can imagine removing the mac look & feel :) i'll poke around
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[18:49:13] <jepler> he asks the most unanswerable drive-by questions
[18:49:36] <jepler> unparsable in this case
[18:51:07] <cradek> wow jeremy youngs's email sig is obnoxious
[18:51:47] <cradek> "The contents of this profile are ..." what is this I don't even
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[18:54:24] <skunkworks> in case others are interested - this is where I am at (with the help from micges)
[18:54:25] <skunkworks> http://pastebin.ca/2410089
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[19:02:51] <skunkworks> micges thinks it is because he developed the hm2_eth on 10.04 32 bit. I will try that next just to see if it is woking there.
[19:03:44] <skunkworks> I wonder if he wears tinfoil hats..
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[19:21:53] <jepler> ugh, ubuntu desktop will shift to mir as the display server in the next release. one more reason to switch to debian
[19:31:50] <seb_kuzminsky> what's mir?
[19:32:00] <jepler> seb_kuzminsky: the *other* replacement for X11
[19:32:21] <jepler> seb_kuzminsky: because wayland wasn't anti-unix enough to run on mark pushbroom's imaginary mobile phones or something
[19:32:36] <seb_kuzminsky> hmm
[19:32:37] <KimK> What (default) window manager does Debian use?
[19:33:01] <jepler> KimK: I think the default default is gnome3, but I have installed xfce desktop environment + openbox window manager on my debian 7 systems.
[19:33:26] <cradek> targeted as a replacement for the X window server system to unlock next-generation user experiences
[19:35:16] <cradek> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UnityNextSpec search for schwoop => nothing
[19:36:09] <cradek> please stop the computer I'd like to get off here
[19:36:21] <KimK> jepler: OK, thanks. I've been doing well on 12.04 with just the "gnome-panel" install (and picking "Gnome classic"), it looks 99% like 10.04, and restores to Unity with one click if needed (hasn't been).
[19:37:54] <KimK> But I'll go along with whatever the group chooses, there is safety in numbers, lol.
[19:38:08] <jepler> I guess I've never used 12.04. It already has too many bad ideas in it.
[19:38:45] * jepler <-- opinionated
[19:38:51] * jepler <-- change-averse
[19:39:34] <KimK> I tried 12.04 only because it seems to be the heir apparent, in the absence of any other solid proposals, but that might change, we'll see.
[19:40:14] <jepler> personally I will probably end up debian 7 + -rt kernel (+ mesa) if I put together another machine
[19:40:33] <jepler> and yes I understand that 7 is a lot lower than 12.04.
[19:41:09] <KimK> I'm good with 12.04, Mint, Debian, whatever the group thinks is best. And I agree that Ubuntu is increasingly guilty lately of "shenanigans".
[19:42:37] <jepler> geez, 2 1/2 years since I wrote this:
http://emergent.unpythonic.net/01289138975
[19:44:28] <seb_kuzminsky> as long as it uses debs i'm happy
[19:45:22] <jepler> I could probably double the length of that rant today
[19:46:36] <jepler> oh here's another hoot:
http://emergent.unpythonic.net/01324219355 -- lie down with dogs, get up with fleas
[19:46:38] <KimK> jepler: That's quite a list of "shenanigans". seb_kuzminsky: Yes, I heard someone promoting Fedora, but I can't see the group abandoning all of the apt-get/deb infrastructure. Probably not happening, and that's OK.
[19:47:14] <jepler> KimK: I think today's Fedora has a good packaging infrastructure that captures many of the good things about apt (deb+apt ~= rpm+yum I think)
[19:47:47] <jepler> on the other hand, there is no Fedora "LTS"
[19:47:51] <seb_kuzminsky> zultron has worked on rpm packaging of linuxcnc, which i think is wonderful because it expands our possible user base, and which scares me a bit because it might be hard for anyone but zultron to support
[19:48:15] <jepler> src.rpm files should rebuild by commandline just like debian sources
[19:48:49] <KimK> Well, I leave it to the board to decide. Oh, wait...
[19:48:55] <jepler> in other words, it's just another half dozen buildbot slaves
[19:48:59] <seb_kuzminsky> haha
[19:49:18] <seb_kuzminsky> KimK: it's up to us all to decide now, just like it always was ;-)
[19:49:58] <cradek> it's telling, how there was not a single response to
http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/1997/07/msg00359.html
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[19:51:45] <cradek> jepler: what happened to the *previous* we'll-get-it-right-this-time replacement for X?
[19:52:15] <jepler> cradek: as far as I know, Wayland development is proceeding. But Mark Pushbroom decided he didn't like it, so he had his engineers start this Mir thing.
[19:52:18] <jepler> honestly I have no idea why
[19:52:33] <cradek> man I'm glad I don't work for that guy
[19:53:48] <jepler> http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/1997/07/msg00663.html
[19:55:30] <cradek> so he must've had a bit of private feedback
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[22:05:49] <skunkworks> logger[mah]:
[22:05:49] <logger[mah]> skunkworks: Log stored at
http://linuxcnc.mah.priv.at/irc/%23linuxcnc-devel/2013-06-27.html
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[23:09:40] <mozmck> jepler: I've been using the cinnamon desktop made by linux mint (in ubuntu 12.04) and like it pretty well.
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