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[01:27:15] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03nieson 05master 863a728 06linuxcnc 10configs/sim/gmoccapy/gmoccapy_handler.py * gmoccapy - fixed a bug launched when pressing fullscreen preview button
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[15:40:00] <cradek> emc-users has gone crazy again
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[16:48:34] <jthornton> yup
[16:49:20] * jthornton almost got sucked into the vortex but resisted
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[16:53:31] <andypugh> EV Vortex?
[16:55:38] <jthornton> aye
[16:57:13] <jthornton> I was about to suggest the hydrogen generator scam as a joke but resisted
[16:57:49] <pcw_home> almost careened into a global warming flame war
[16:58:00] <jthornton> lol
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[16:59:06] <andypugh> I could see two very entrenched positions to each side of me, so backed away. Still annoyed at MW missing the point I was trying to make.
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[17:01:12] <pcw_home> Note sure the annoyance factor would diminish if you continued
[17:02:09] <andypugh> Exactly
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[17:29:49] <cradek> a pure electric would be perfect for 99% of my driving, which is around town and to work and back. I need >300 miles in a day like twice a year. I need to haul something big like twice a year. Those times are perfect for renting whatever vehicle is most appropriate.
[17:30:33] <andypugh> I have a similar usage pattern, and no car at all.
[17:30:38] <cradek> but I'm a fool if I think everyone has the same needs -- I'm also a fool if i think buying the biggest and heaviest and longest-range vehicle I *ever* need is smart or necessary
[17:31:10] <andypugh> (Though I can cheat and borrow a test car from work any time I want to)
[17:31:18] <cradek> in many cities that's exactly the smart choice, and eventually will be much more common
[17:32:10] <andypugh> I know a fair few folk in London who don't have cars. And these are petrolheads who play with the old fire engine.
[17:32:41] <seb_kuzminsky> i have the lightest truck i could find, and a bike, and that takes care of all my transportation needs
[17:33:33] <cradek> in my 2-car family of 2, one electric commuter and one longer-range small gas-powered would be great
[17:34:31] <cradek> yeah those tiny pickup trucks are sure useful compromises
[17:34:56] <cradek> I love my tiny hatchback that can carry surprisingly big stuff but also >2 people
[17:35:01] <pcw_home> That would be perfect for us as well, electric commuter for everyday and small truck for Hay runs etc
[17:35:19] <andypugh> I wonder if MW has ever tried to get into a Smart? They are actually remarkably large inside because there are only 2 seats and no pretence of any more. A friend with a Merk SLK reckons a Smart is more roomy.
[17:35:44] <cradek> eh I don't want to talk about MW
[17:35:46] <skunkworks> thre are smart cars around here.
[17:36:09] <skunkworks> heh - I read that as Mid West..
[17:36:09] <andypugh> (mental image of PCW with a sheep-powered cart heading out to fetch hay)
[17:36:39] <cradek> last I saw those didn't get better mileage than other (less) small cars, so they appear to me to be just an affectation
[17:37:25] <cradek> (the opposite affectation to hummers is fine by me, of course)
[17:40:05] <andypugh> Disappointing to drive too. I was expecting a lively little roller-skate like the original Mini, but somehow they have managed to make then dull and ponderous.
[17:40:38] <cradek> yeah I drove a (new) mini before I bought my current car, and liked it a lot less after the test drive
[17:41:05] <andypugh> I got 44mpg without trying with the 2.0l diesel Mondeo the other weekend (that's the car you have in the US as the Fusion). Admittedly that's UK gallons.
[17:42:01] <andypugh> The (new) Mini is also rather bigger than the original Maxi:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austin_Maxi
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[18:48:46] <jepler> all I have to say is that the german (and maybe general metric?) way of giving fuel economy in l/100km is better than mpg.
[18:49:57] <andypugh> I disagree, it's a stupid way of doing it.
[18:50:42] <andypugh> (the factor of 100 just seems pointless)
[18:51:35] <jepler> you're right, it should just be in square meters
[18:51:46] <andypugh> I know my bike does 10 miles per litre. That is an even sillier unit, but we buy fuel in litres and road signs show miles. :-)
[18:52:13] <jepler> "my car's fuel efficiency is 7.1e-8 m2"
[18:52:38] <andypugh> xkcd explained that fuel economy is an area, which is actually quite fun if you imagine "eating" a thread of fuel of that area as you drive along.
[18:53:30] <andypugh> According to Google 45 miles per gallon = 5.22699074 × 1020 barns
[18:53:51] <andypugh> (that is 10^20)
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[18:54:37] <jepler> in any case, the real advantage is having the distance in the denominator, so you can subtract two fuel figures and multiply by distance travelled (e.g., per year) to find the savings in fuel volumes
[18:54:51] <andypugh> so, the natural units are exabarns.
[18:55:30] <jepler> it also makes it immediately clear that 15->30mpg is a much bigger difference than 30->60mpg
[18:55:35] <andypugh> I agree that stating consumption rather than efficiency is more logical.
[18:57:18] <jepler> circular mils are not an unreasonable unit. 33 mile/gal = 140 circular mils
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[19:16:28] <JT-Shop> why not mass, distance, velocity and comsumption as a real fuel usage measure?
[19:18:12] <jepler> yeah, fuel consumption/efficiency numbers are generally measured at a favorable speed and load as I understand it
[19:18:23] <jepler> not sure how you package it all up in a single number
[19:18:24] <cradek> useful mass moved (person going to work) or wasted mass moved (hummer)?
[19:19:27] <jepler> a 5-passenger car could get 160 person-miles per gallon full or 32 person-miles per gallon with only a driver, for instance
[19:19:55] <jepler> (well, assuming the underlying mpg was 32 in both cases which is probably unlikely)
[19:20:05] <JT-Shop> that makes sense if you use the FAA person weight
[19:20:54] <jepler> of course, you'd have to drive it faster: 325 person-miles per hour instead of just 65 person-miles per hour...
[19:21:05] <JT-Shop> we have two Hondas each can get 45 MPG, one can go 0-140 and haul two people, one can go 0-100 maybe and haul 4 people and has a roof
[19:22:06] <JT-Shop> so I should be more people hauling efficent on the motorcycle but I get worse mileage when I'm alone on the bike
[19:27:10] <jepler> hm. Wikipedia says te fastest manned spaceflight was 24790mph (this is the highest speed attained, not an average or cruising speed), or ~75k person-miles per hour
[19:27:32] <jepler> this lower than the concorde (~175k person-miles per hour) which is in turn lower than the A380-800 (~500k person-miles per hour)
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[19:28:15] <andypugh> I suspect that Planet Earth wins.
[19:28:19] <JT-Shop> the A380-800 is huge
[19:28:21] <JT-Shop> LOL
[19:28:42] <jepler> well andypugh has a good point here
[19:29:52] <andypugh> 4666 trillion personmilesperhour
[19:30:40] <andypugh> Sorry, 466 trillion, (466935346458209, approx). And increasing.
[19:31:18] <jepler> andypugh: using what, the earth's average velocity with respect to the sun? (~100000 km/h)
[19:31:42] <andypugh> Yes, orbital speed.
[19:32:25] <andypugh> I guess that the speed that the solar system is moving through the galaxy might make more sense.
[19:32:43] <jepler> it depends where you think you're going I guess
[19:32:46] <andypugh> Or the speed of the galaxy relative to the luminiferous ether :-)
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[19:33:07] <jepler> that's 79 person-lightyears per hour
[19:33:17] <jepler> too bad we can't actually lay them all out end to end and go somewhere for reals
[19:39:20] <andypugh> Indeed.
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[19:58:29] <skunkworks> we are moving close to 420,000 MPH around the galaxy
[19:59:08] <skunkworks> and they think the galaxy is moving around 2,237,000 MPH.
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[20:04:41] <jepler> hm I find lower figures for the velocity of the milky way (630km/s=1.5 megamile/hour relative to the local group and 550km/s = 1.25 megamile/hour relative to the CMB)
[20:05:36] <skunkworks> the more I search the more different answers I get ;)
[20:05:49] <jepler> er saying "local group" is wrong. wikipedia's longer explanation of what the 630km/s figure is relative to is: "relative to the average velocity of galaxies taken over a large enough volume so that the expansion of the Universe dominates over local, random motions"
[20:06:25] <skunkworks> bbl
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[22:07:01] <andypugh> I may just have been intemperate on the mailing list.
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[22:22:31] <cradek> onoz nobody has ever done that before
[22:24:02] <PCW> Hard to resist when you know a bit about the subject, but better to bite your tongue err fingers
[22:24:51] <PCW> if its OT anyway
[22:28:20] <cradek> As sometimes happens in the world of urban legends, desire for something to be true transforms a rumor into certainty that this very thing is fact. Over the years, our legend about a 200 mpg car has bobbed to the surface in community after community, been debunked in numerous respected publications </snopes>
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[22:34:51] <cradek> PCW: if you and seb and I are in the same room in june, it'd be awesome if we could get our firmware packages up to date
[22:35:20] <cradek> either way, I can't wait to meet everyone
[22:39:12] <PCW> Yes I would love to have the stuff autobuilt so I don't need to do it other than custom configs
[22:39:36] <PCW> I am aiming for the weekend
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[22:41:19] <cradek> I'd also love to see them packaged so people can get updates, and we can deal with the occasional API change using package dependencies (I think we've done that once before - way back when)
[22:41:35] <cradek> I think seb said he can't come for the whole week, so I bet he'll be there on the weekend too
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[22:44:59] <PCW> That would be great if possible but I would enjoy just meeting everybody in any case
[22:47:04] <cradek> yep me too.
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[22:57:26] <andypugh> Actually, a 200mph car is entirely posssible. Maybe as fast as 30mph. The NOx emissions would be off the scale.
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[22:58:45] <cradek> probably wouldn't be a sedan as we know it? (I think that's what he meant to type)
[22:58:56] <andypugh> I am strongly of the opinion that the time has come to stop ramping down NOx limits. They only really matter in Beijing, LA and Athens, and those places could have local limits and let the rest of the world work on Co2.
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[22:59:41] <cradek> I heard a story this morning about how LA's starting to think mass transit might be smart
[23:00:03] <andypugh> oreally?
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[23:24:01] <skunkworks> andypugh: I like the bullocks.. You have the knowledge to say that. :)
[23:27:03] <PCW> bullocks is a steer and a store, bollocks is different
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