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[06:10:04] <zultron> <jepler> checking for a suitable libm... nm: 'tests/mathtest': No such file
[06:10:07] <zultron> <jepler> libm OK to use.
[06:10:24] <zultron> That's a bug.
[06:11:02] <zultron> I went in and half-way fixed it a year ago, but not sure where that went.
[06:11:33] <zultron> Basically, the compile for mathtest fails, but doesn't halt configure.
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[06:13:32] <zultron> Then its execution fails (it wasn't built, right?), and (getting fuzzy) therefore doesn't produce output that looks like a failure, so libm is assumed to be OK.
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[15:00:32] <seb_kuzm1nsky> this amuses me:
http://starlogs.net/#jepler/linuxcnc-mirror
[15:00:56] <seb_kuzm1nsky> it's like "git log --pretty=starwars"
[15:05:40] <skunkworks> heh
[15:08:05] <jepler> seb_kuzm1nsky: you're easily entertained
[15:09:17] <seb_kuzm1nsky> simple minds, simple pleasures
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[15:11:31] <jepler> huh who knew there was a css 'animation' property with 'crawling' value
[15:11:40] <jepler> so it's all css transformations and animations, no canvas or webgl
[15:12:02] <jepler> also try entering a bad repo name
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[15:40:17] <mhaberler> very funny!
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[18:02:18] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05master 3bf4585 06linuxcnc 10configs/sim/remap/cycle/python/toplevel.py 10src/emc/rs274ngc/interp_internal.hh 10src/emc/rs274ngc/rs274ngc_pre.cc * interp: add __delete__ interpreter shutdown hook to Interp::exit()
[18:02:18] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05master 11a0e7b 06linuxcnc 10docs/src/remap/structure.txt * docs/interp: document __delete__ Python hook
[18:03:37] bz is now known as bz-
[18:03:44] <seb_kuzminsky> i was mistaken about the state of rtai, the latest release is 3.9.1 and it does *not* include support for linux 3.5.7
[18:03:59] <cradek> darn
[18:04:11] <seb_kuzminsky> the support for 3.5.7 has not been released yet, but it's in the works still
[18:04:22] <seb_kuzminsky> so we're on the unreleased "magma" "branch" for now
[18:04:51] <seb_kuzminsky> in related news, zultron's xenomai kernel building infrastructure is very near to completion and is pretty awesome
[18:05:03] -!- sparr has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
[18:05:09] <zultron> :) Thanks, Seb!
[18:05:17] <seb_kuzminsky> ohai!
[18:05:19] <mhaberler> you mean you build that kernel now? great news!
[18:05:21] <seb_kuzminsky> i thought you were going to work!!
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[18:05:41] <zultron> I thought that was YOU!
[18:05:50] <seb_kuzminsky> mhaberler: i just replicated zultron's kernel build on my machine
[18:05:58] <seb_kuzminsky> heh
[18:06:15] <mhaberler> as a one-off, or a buildbot venture?
[18:06:23] <seb_kuzminsky> one-off
[18:06:26] <mhaberler> I see
[18:06:43] <zultron> The pbuilder config could be stuffed into the buildbot, if desired.
[18:07:00] <zultron> But we'll be building so infrequently it may not be worth it.
[18:07:02] <mhaberler> well so'll it have the linuxcnc.org signature eventually, I assume?
[18:07:16] <zultron> Xenomai releases avg every 6 months.
[18:07:23] <seb_kuzminsky> it doesn't seem worth it to make a kernel buildbot, but if someone else wants to do it i'll help
[18:07:44] <seb_kuzminsky> mhaberler: yes, this is a step towards having xenomai kernel debs in the linuxcnc.org archive
[18:07:51] <mhaberler> excellent
[18:08:10] <seb_kuzminsky> then we'll review the rtos branch, decide where to merge it, and go!
[18:08:45] <mhaberler> well I might revisit the question once the 3.8 integration of beaglebone specifics becomes a candidate for merging the xenomai 3.8 efforts, which it isnt yet
[18:09:31] <mhaberler> also, a certain Paul Corner has done work to get the Xenomai kernel for Raspberry up to 3.5.7 ..
[18:09:48] <zultron> Are you talking about building packages for ARM?
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[18:10:23] <mhaberler> not sure if package is the right form for those targets; I need to read up what the suggested procedure is
[18:10:40] <seb_kuzminsky> let's focus on getting rtos merged first, it's a very valuable milestone and pretty close now
[18:10:59] <seb_kuzminsky> linuxcnc debs for raspbian seems fairly easy
[18:11:01] <mhaberler> well _I_ am totally focused ;)
[18:11:26] <seb_kuzminsky> ok, eagerly awaiting a branch to review ;)
[18:12:15] <mhaberler> what I will clean is dynload-rtapi which is a month out I figure, because that is IMO the merge candidate
[18:12:29] <mhaberler> meanwhile folks can try the rtos3 and rtos3-m packages
[18:12:45] <zultron> rtos3 is what's being built now?
[18:12:50] <mhaberler> yes
[18:13:50] <mhaberler> merging rtos3 now in a rush and doing it again for the universal binary brings no gain for those able to use bb packages, and rocks the boat twice for those who dont
[18:14:51] <zultron> Ok. Seb was saying that the builds succeed, but the package builds don't. I forget why, but maybe not because of missing packages...?
[18:15:50] <zultron> Anyway, gotta go work on that truck axle a bit before a meeting. Ciao
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[18:23:42] <seb_kuzminsky> i want to review rtos independently of dynload-rtapi
[18:32:55] <seb_kuzminsky> i thought that's what we agreed to earlier:
[18:33:03] <seb_kuzminsky> http://linuxcnc.mah.priv.at/irc/%23linuxcnc-devel/2013-04-09.html#21:23:14
[18:33:15] <seb_kuzminsky> http://linuxcnc.mah.priv.at/irc/%23linuxcnc-devel/2013-04-10.html#18:04:53
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[19:12:18] <mhaberler> I have changed my mind on that - the dynload-rtapi branch is maturing and there is no point in doing that twice; it would have made sense a few months ago, but it doesnt anymore
[19:13:21] <mhaberler> there will be a lot of moot work if you do
[19:13:57] <mhaberler> whatever the result, I do not see any point in merging rtos3* at this point anymore
[19:15:22] <seb_kuzminsky> why will there be more work? isn't dynload on top of rtos? and dont you have to clean up rtos no matter what?
[19:15:22] <mhaberler> I dont want to frustrate you and I appreciate the willingness to look into it, but I think it might be wasted energy
[19:15:50] <seb_kuzminsky> i'm mostly concerned with making changes in a controlled way, so that we can all understand what's happening to our shared code base
[19:16:05] <seb_kuzminsky> if the branch is too big, the review is harder
[19:16:20] <mhaberler> well rtos3 is stable and forward compatible, so that is fine as a stopgap
[19:16:57] <seb_kuzminsky> rtos seems like a useful, self-contained chunk of functionality, which is a good unit of review
[19:17:49] <seb_kuzminsky> i understand you're working on more changes, and rtos is not the end of it, but it helps the rest of the developer community if the changes are small and self contained
[19:18:32] <mhaberler> well fine, people should give it a try; in terms of RT capabilities there will be no change; there will be some massive change in particular wrt shared memory handling, iow a ton of code is going to be deleted, both generic and rtos-specific
[19:18:58] <mhaberler> sysvipc is going, it will be all posix shm
[19:19:13] <seb_kuzminsky> yeah, that's super sketchy, let's do that as a separate change, from a known starting point
[19:19:50] <mhaberler> and mmap/munmap; that is what I'm currently doing and I am not done with it, so there is no point yet - in a few weeks there will
[19:20:54] <seb_kuzminsky> i know you've developed way ahead of where the rest of the linuxcnc world is, i want to help you integrate your changes, but it needs to be done in clean understandable steps
[19:21:11] <seb_kuzminsky> help me help you!
[19:21:42] <mhaberler> sure, that will require documentation both at the API and the structural/programming layer
[19:22:00] <mhaberler> well fine, I let you but give me these two weeks
[19:22:15] <mhaberler> please also see this:
[19:22:49] <seb_kuzminsky> two weeks to do what? move the dynload branch further ahead? that's not helpful for us who will review your rtos branch
[19:22:52] <mhaberler> the rtos3 and dynload-rtapi branches are currently at their maximum complexity
[19:23:45] <mhaberler> what I am currently doing is simplifying, abstracting common stuff into a shm api, and dumping code not used any more; so the result will be strcuturally signifcantly simpler to understand
[19:24:00] <seb_kuzminsky> i dont want a new shm api at this point
[19:24:20] <mhaberler> this is the situation:
[19:25:18] <mhaberler> what you now have is: RTAI shm, Xenomai shm, SYSVIPC shm, all a tad different for no good reason - and with replicated code for no good reason
[19:26:14] <mhaberler> post my mopup this will be: mmap for all ULAPI and userland RTAPI code, and a single function for all kernel RTAPI code
[19:26:28] <mhaberler> so tick box - which one do you want to look at ;-?
[19:27:09] <seb_kuzminsky> like i said, i want to look at small incremental changes
[19:27:30] <seb_kuzminsky> if you change a lot of things at once, it's hard to understand the reason for those changes
[19:27:43] <mhaberler> that is not the case
[19:27:51] <mhaberler> all I can say here: please let me finish this and you will find the result easier to understand
[19:27:54] <seb_kuzminsky> if you want to change the shm api, then add new rtos support *after* that change, that's fine
[19:28:09] <seb_kuzminsky> if you want to add new rtos support, then change apis *after* that, that's fine
[19:28:24] <seb_kuzminsky> doing both at once is not the most efficient way to do it
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[19:30:40] <mhaberler> I'm sorry I dont have a more convincing answer, but I hope you'll eventually see why I am doing it this way
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[19:31:37] <seb_kuzminsky> it sounds to me like you're optimizing for the state of the repo that will be reviewed
[19:32:00] <seb_kuzminsky> and it sounds like the state you're describing is simpler than the current head of the rtos branch
[19:32:10] <seb_kuzminsky> but i'm asking for something different
[19:32:22] <seb_kuzminsky> i'm asking that the steps taken to get there be simple
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[19:32:29] <seb_kuzminsky> does that distinction make sense?
[19:33:14] <seb_kuzminsky> code review has two purposes, one is to find bugs in the proposed changes and the other is to let the other developers understand how & why the changes were made
[19:33:43] <seb_kuzminsky> both purposes are easier if the changes are small and self contained, even if they take you to intermediate working trees that are not super simple
[19:35:01] <mhaberler> well cleaning up the history will bring it into what you call simple steps, it just isnt there
[19:35:38] <mhaberler> in the history as it stands, I mean
[19:35:39] <seb_kuzminsky> exactly!
[19:37:30] <mhaberler> what I can imagine is cleaning up rtos3 and dynload-rtapi separately (as it is rebased on it), but it will really take me out of the current work if I do it right away; that'd be a good idea though
[19:38:14] <seb_kuzminsky> that sounds really good
[19:38:25] <mhaberler> that makes it two separately comprehensible units even if the first becomes history
[19:38:34] <mhaberler> fine, then I'll do it that way
[19:38:44] <seb_kuzminsky> if rtos is cleaned up, reviewed, and merged, then the dynload changes that follow will be easier to review
[19:39:09] <seb_kuzminsky> thanks! it really helps the rest of us who are trying to integrate this branch/branches
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[19:39:23] <mhaberler> I said _review_, I oppose merging rtos3 and dynload-rtapi in separate steps (!)
[19:39:41] <mhaberler> I laid out why - nobody is held up atm
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[19:39:46] <mhaberler> provided packages fall out
[19:40:08] <seb_kuzminsky> i'm working on packages too, with zultron and paolo and others
[19:40:32] <mhaberler> there is no need for dynload-rtapi packages yet; John is working on the build prerequisits
[19:40:39] <mhaberler> but overall its a good idea
[19:40:55] <mhaberler> yes I see, I really appreciate that
[19:41:18] <seb_kuzminsky> ok sweet, then we're back in agreement, as far as it goes: you'll clean up the history of the rtos branch, i'll review it (and anyone else who cares to comment), and we'll go from there
[19:41:31] <mhaberler> fair enough
[19:41:59] <mhaberler> I think without some docs this is a bit like sending deer into the headlight
[19:42:14] <seb_kuzminsky> i know you (and others) have been working on the rtos branch for a long time, often without the support you've wanted from me and the other devs, and i appreciate your work
[19:42:28] <seb_kuzminsky> and i'm glad to finally have some cycles to help finish it
[19:42:36] <mhaberler> well its finally coming together, so lets tick that off
[19:42:49] <mhaberler> (I mean close issue)
[19:42:55] <seb_kuzminsky> yes, docs are needed too for it to be ready
[19:43:01] <seb_kuzminsky> that's part of the second 80% ;-)
[19:43:29] <mhaberler> well yes, but that can be done in parallel with oiling the machine
[19:43:36] <seb_kuzminsky> integration is often a bigger task than us coders think
[19:43:49] <seb_kuzminsky> thanks again for you work on this, we're so close to a major milestone completed
[19:43:54] <seb_kuzminsky> talk to you later!
[19:43:58] <mhaberler> the one thing you could help John big time is a bb VM which has all kernels and all headers, and libs for all branches
[19:44:16] <mhaberler> this will be needed for the dynload-rtapi build once it comes around
[19:44:20] <seb_kuzminsky> ah, for dynload later?
[19:44:22] <seb_kuzminsky> i can do that
[19:44:39] <seb_kuzminsky> but first i want to focus on getting rtos into mainline somewhere
[19:44:44] <mhaberler> btw it doesnt matter if you have it on all machines , no difference afaict
[19:44:46] <seb_kuzminsky> and i've done most of the buildbot work for that
[19:45:24] <mhaberler> not sure I was clear enough - I think it really boils down to this:
[19:45:59] <mhaberler> on the RTAI and rt-preempt bb, install xenomai headers and runtime package (but dont touch running kernel)
[19:46:28] <mhaberler> on xenomai, install RTAI 'runtime' and headers (I think runtime is mostly liblxrt but not sure)
[19:46:37] <seb_kuzminsky> let's worry about the dynload build environment later
[19:46:44] <mhaberler> on rt-preempt, the rtai and xeno support
[19:47:05] <mhaberler> it will mean a singke vm image, just different kernels booted for runtests
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