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[01:06:59] <skunkworks> I had a coworker that was cracking wap wireless encryption pretty fast. (going for free wireless while he was going to college..)
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[07:28:58] <mhaberler> seb_kuzminsky: Am I right to assume this is for a single VM, not the host machine per se:
http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/buildslave-admin-guide.html ?
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[08:19:13] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03chrisinnanaimo 05master 2dadb98 06emc2 10src/emc/usr_intf/gscreen/gscreen.py * gscreen -add max velocity and angular velocity INI checks
[08:19:13] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03chrisinnanaimo 05master b37de0b 06emc2 10src/emc/usr_intf/gscreen/emc_interface.py * gscreen -add functions to change linuxcnc's mode
[08:19:17] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03chrisinnanaimo 05master 9f671d4 06emc2 10configs/ 10(8 files in 2 dirs) * gscreen config -add metric config and clean up TRAJ section
[08:19:24] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03chrisinnanaimo 05master 080946e 06emc2 10configs/ 04sim/gscreen/gscreen_axis.ini 04sim/gscreen/gscreen_axis_lathe.ini 04sim/gscreen_custom/gscreen_custom_lathe.ini * gscreen config -remove unnessasary sample configs
[08:19:32] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03chrisinnanaimo 05master 5b462e3 06emc2 10configs/ 10sim/gscreen/gscreen_mm.ini 03sim/gscreen/sim_mm.tbl * gscreen config -clean up metric INI and add metric tooltable
[08:19:39] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03chrisinnanaimo 05master 1a9497e 06emc2 03configs/sim/gscreen/gscreen_lathe.ini * gscreen config -add a plain gscreen lathe config
[08:19:46] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03chrisinnanaimo 05master 41e3bca 06emc2 10src/emc/usr_intf/gscreen/gscreen.py * gscreen -switch to manual mode if jog button pressed
[08:19:53] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03chrisinnanaimo 05master d2cba60 06emc2 10src/emc/usr_intf/gscreen/emc_interface.py * gscreen -have the velocity calculated with units
[08:20:00] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03chrisinnanaimo 05master e64b206 06emc2 10src/emc/usr_intf/gscreen/gscreen.py * gscreen -add velocity to the status window
[08:22:40] <seb_kuzminsky> mhaberler: yeah that's for the machine running the buildslave (whether it's a vm or a real machine)
[08:22:53] <mhaberler> get it, thanks
[08:23:13] <mhaberler> what do you use, vmware? vbox?
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[15:11:59] <seb_kuzminsky> mhaberler: i use kvm
[15:13:14] <mhaberler> and for OS - the livecd's? what's with precise?
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[18:12:42] <seb_kuzminsky> mhaberler: the os isn't super important
[18:12:59] <mhaberler> but the package stream I guess
[18:13:00] <seb_kuzminsky> i've been starting with the ubuntu server install cd, since it's got the least amount of extra junk on it
[18:13:08] <mhaberler> aja
[18:13:18] <seb_kuzminsky> are you standing up another buildbot?
[18:13:29] <seb_kuzminsky> or are you making a xenomai buildslave to attach to the existing one?
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[18:13:38] <mhaberler> for now, #2
[18:13:51] <seb_kuzminsky> ok, that seems more reasonable
[18:14:05] <mhaberler> I am switching machines and major stuff doesnt make sense right now
[18:14:39] <seb_kuzminsky> if you have extra time, i'd suggest tackling some of the open linuxcnc bugs instead of duplicating existing infrastructure
[18:15:22] <mhaberler> I think we discussed the issue of redundancy and having a single person on a critical path
[18:15:48] <mhaberler> I vaguely remember you actually agreed
[18:16:16] <seb_kuzminsky> i don't think duplicating an entire system is the best way to achieve the robustness we both want
[18:16:33] <seb_kuzminsky> having an open system that multiple people can operate is better
[18:16:37] <mhaberler> I did not state I would do that, so can we please cut that short
[18:17:19] <seb_kuzminsky> it seemed like that's where you were heading
[18:18:06] <mhaberler> so much for 'seemed' - when in doubt, ask and please stop insinuating intents I do not have, I'm having none of this - ok?
[18:18:10] <mhaberler> as for spare time - a really worthwhile effort would be to have a second person able to fix/extend your stuff
[18:18:46] <mhaberler> I'm sorry, this is unacceptable.
[18:19:02] <seb_kuzminsky> you can extend it - by adding a buildslave
[18:19:17] <seb_kuzminsky> this has been on open request since i started the buildbot, and i published docs on how to do it
[18:19:56] <mhaberler> what is so difficult about 'single point of failure' ?
[18:20:23] <seb_kuzminsky> what do you mean?
[18:21:06] <mhaberler> as we discussed: you run into the wrong car, everything stops - where is your backup person?
[18:21:14] <seb_kuzminsky> heh
[18:21:25] <mhaberler> it is as simple as that
[18:21:47] <seb_kuzminsky> short of renting time on someone else's cloud and outsourcing everything to a paid service not attached to one of us, what do you propose?
[18:22:01] <mhaberler> if you run an IT shop like this in a company which depends on this, well there goes your job - today
[18:22:34] <seb_kuzminsky> what do you propose?
[18:22:38] <mhaberler> I can look around - my box is in a datacenter and there are some options I could follow
[18:23:02] <mhaberler> however, this makes about zero sense if we retain a single point of failure
[18:23:32] <mhaberler> if a build takes 15 or 10 minutes, nobody really cares; if it stops altogether, many do
[18:24:18] <seb_kuzminsky> i also don't want the automatic build to stop
[18:24:30] <mhaberler> so, we're in agreement anyway
[18:24:50] <seb_kuzminsky> i think we often are michael
[18:25:36] <seb_kuzminsky> the reason i created the buildbot in the first place was because it would be useful to the project, so obviously i want it to be as useful and reliable as possible
[18:25:37] <mhaberler> as I said - I can start prowling for options on a larger cluster, but I would do so only if we agree in principle to at least fully replicate your setup
[18:26:02] <seb_kuzminsky> my concern is with the best way to allocate the scarce resources of this volunteer project
[18:26:11] <mhaberler> in that context the buildbot slave is only the first 20% of the solution
[18:26:22] <mhaberler> by distibuting the load?
[18:26:30] <seb_kuzminsky> moving from a box that goes down when i die to a box that goes down when you die is not a win
[18:26:46] <seb_kuzminsky> i think you agree with this
[18:26:52] <mhaberler> that would entail in principle to trust other persons so far as they _could_ be able not to completely botch it
[18:27:34] <mhaberler> well, taking out two boxes takes two cars in the right moment ;)
[18:29:22] <mhaberler> please do not misunderstand this as 'your setup is insufficient' - if it were, it would have never become critical
[18:30:06] <seb_kuzminsky> i think my setup is doing a fine job, and i'm not really worried about that
[18:30:47] <seb_kuzminsky> i'm just trying to avoid us all as a group spending time that could be better spent elsewhere
[18:31:52] <mhaberler> you just noted scarce resources - I offered help; the way it is set up it obviously not in shape to be dealt with by more than one person - so there you own your time problem, and no way out of you dont change it
[18:32:45] <seb_kuzminsky> i don't think that's true
[18:33:06] <mhaberler> ok, who actually helps you on your machines other than you, then?
[18:33:14] <seb_kuzminsky> you could easily add a xenomai buildslave, saving me the trouble, spreading the work, that would be useful
[18:33:30] <seb_kuzminsky> like i said, i've had this request open since the early days, years ago
[18:34:02] <seb_kuzminsky> it's well set up to get contributions from anyone who cares to
[18:34:10] <mhaberler> as I said I will do this, and the reason I do this is to learn whats involved - I do not view this as a desirable endpoint of arrangements
[18:34:37] <seb_kuzminsky> i can tell you don't, and that's ok
[18:34:46] <mhaberler> what I would view as desirable:
[18:35:47] <mhaberler> have more than one person being able to setup or fix things, and have no single critical component which will grind everything to a halt when it fails - that is most basic IT standards, and I just dont get why we have to argue this
[18:36:33] <seb_kuzminsky> that does indeed sound desirable
[18:36:50] <mhaberler> that is exactly _all_ of my agenda, period
[18:37:20] <seb_kuzminsky> it's a fairly lofty goal, as i'm sure you know
[18:37:43] <mhaberler> I did run a large ISP - I am very itchy about certain setup scenarios. And yes, it is fixable. No, not lofty.
[18:37:45] <seb_kuzminsky> you're talking about redundancy in all components if i understand you correctly
[18:38:06] <mhaberler> persons, master, slaves, machines, yes.
[18:38:36] <mhaberler> talk to me about self-made catastrophes, been there;)
[18:38:57] <seb_kuzminsky> that's a very different model from how our project is currently run - we're all volunteers, we offer up whatever personal resources we have, and we do the best we can within those constraints
[18:39:25] <seb_kuzminsky> i think you're talking about hardware in someone elses cloud (otherwise the owner of the hardware becomes a single point of failure, right?)
[18:39:53] <mhaberler> IMO redundancy isnt a project model but a basic sanitary prerequisite - it is not about gatekeeping
[18:40:03] <mhaberler> right, that too
[18:40:28] <mhaberler> I would need to work my phonebook a bit, yes
[18:41:52] <mhaberler> the key question is whether you're willing to take the time to bring other folks up to speed
[18:42:11] <seb_kuzminsky> that's one key question, there are many others
[18:42:38] <mhaberler> what's your laundry list look like?
[18:42:42] <seb_kuzminsky> i think i've proven my willingness to help out, historically and currently
[18:43:09] <seb_kuzminsky> i find your "key question" slightly insulting
[18:43:16] <mhaberler> well sure, and I think everybody appreciates it - that's why it has become so critical to start with?
[18:43:25] <mhaberler> no, that wasnt my intent
[18:43:53] <seb_kuzminsky> my volunteer time is mostly spent triaging bugs and fixing them where i can
[18:43:57] <mhaberler> it clearly is a load on time to teach somebody a setup, but I fail to see how that can be insulting
[18:44:36] <seb_kuzminsky> since things are running pretty smoothly infrastructure-wise at the moment, that's the highest return on (time) investment
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[18:49:22] <mhaberler> I would think everybody is reponsible for his time - I dont advise you on this, and I inversely find it a bit odd to be told 'go fix bugs, thats better' as well, but I dont take it as an insult
[18:51:07] <mhaberler> as for smoothly - well you just said you are short on time; the setup doesnt lean itself to somebody else chip in so you're stuck in getting new work done yourself as a consequence - if I were you I wouldnt see that as desirable
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[18:51:55] <seb_kuzminsky> it's easy for others to help out, and i've had an open request for this for years, i dont know why you keep saying that
[18:52:38] <mhaberler> how does me setting up a slave help you pushing the new branches through the machinery? the setup work is still one-off
[18:53:15] <seb_kuzminsky> true, i have sole access to the master config
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[18:53:53] <seb_kuzminsky> until the new rtos work that you did, this has never been a bottleneck
[18:54:04] * seb_kuzminsky shrugs
[18:54:41] <seb_kuzminsky> you setting up a slave for a new platform would have been very helpful in any of the years before this
[18:55:47] <mhaberler> well I'm a tad new around here compared to emc2 eons;)
[18:56:01] <mhaberler> but I'll still do it
[18:56:37] <seb_kuzminsky> i'm going off to focus on my day job now
[18:56:40] <mhaberler> is there anything 'new rtos/xenomai packages/kernels' specific I could help at?
[18:56:42] <mhaberler> sure
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[18:56:52] <mhaberler> thanks for keeping the wheels spinning
[18:57:00] <mhaberler> ah, disks
[18:57:09] <seb_kuzminsky> i think i've given you everything in the buildbot except for the buildslave vm images
[18:57:33] <seb_kuzminsky> and i'll keep answering any questions you have
[18:57:41] <mhaberler> maybe you could fork over one of them just in case I need to take a look
[18:57:51] <mhaberler> fair enough, sounds like a base
[18:58:43] <seb_kuzminsky> i intended for the buildslave admin guide to provide all the info needed to set up a buildslave, it's really pretty easy
[18:59:12] <seb_kuzminsky> buildslaves just run shell commands supplied by the buildmaster, and you have the buildmaster config now
[18:59:26] <mhaberler> ok, I'll let you know how that goes
[18:59:30] <seb_kuzminsky> if you really want a 10 gig vm image, let me know which one and i'll try to make it available for you to download
[19:00:04] <seb_kuzminsky> but i bet it would be quicker to generate it from an ubuntu install cd and the buildslave admin guide
[19:01:15] <mhaberler> barring that a login on the box is just as fine - it's for having a look in case. but lets discuss this when/if I get stuck. or I can give you access to my box.
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