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[18:18:14] <mhaberler> cradek: any strong reason why G10L2 can rotate around Z only, not X or y?
[18:21:31] <KimK> mhaberler: Hi, since cradek seems to be AFK, I hope you don't mind if I kibitz a little. Remind us how that works, how would you propose to specify the other options?
[18:23:04] <mhaberler> well, I guess two additional words like Q and some other to cover rotations around X and Y axis
[18:24:31] <KimK> OK. I was wondering if you thought it should be connected to or independent of the G17-G18-G19 setting. I'm not sure.
[18:25:29] <skunkworks_> would you be able to mix the them....
[18:25:36] <mhaberler> I dont think so
[18:25:57] <mhaberler> yes, I would assume mixing should be possible - its just a linear transformation
[18:26:10] <cradek> it's really very hard to get right, but, no there's no reason it can't be done
[18:26:41] <mhaberler> I had a request from a local user, that's why I'm asking
[18:26:58] <cradek> heh, we all have wants
[18:27:15] <mhaberler> yess... I am pretty busy with my own wants
[18:27:44] <cradek> it took many hours of tears and sweat to make Z rotation work correctly everywhere
[18:28:00] <cradek> also, approximately nobody uses it
[18:28:10] <KimK> Sounds like a cool feature if it can be added without breaking anything. Maybe your local user can develop his own workaround with trig functions?
[18:28:11] <skunkworks_> I have tested it~
[18:28:11] <mhaberler> well, actually I do..
[18:28:16] <KimK> Hey, I use it!
[18:28:43] <cradek> KimK: you can't make arcs if emc doesn't support the rotations itself
[18:28:54] <mhaberler> I didnt look - does it impact a lot of code?
[18:29:44] <cradek> KimK: there's no way to make an arc in the plane X=Z for instance
[18:30:06] <KimK> In fact, I used it in a variable-programmed G-code program where the endpoint dimension don't appear anywhere. So I was very glad to find the (DEBUG, foo) message!
[18:30:10] <cradek> mhaberler: yes it touches everything
[18:30:31] <mhaberler> uh, oh. I will point my cherished user to them git archives ;-)
[18:30:36] <KimK> You mean no way when the rotation is engaged?
[18:30:57] <cradek> you *can* currently make an arc in the plane X=Y by rotating Z 45 and using G18
[18:31:36] <cradek> no, I mean there's no way to write it in gcode currently, because no available rotation makes that an arc plane
[18:31:41] <KimK> Rotating Z 45? Now that throws me. Not 90?
[18:32:07] <cradek> 45 is right, you're not picturing the X=Y plane correctly
[18:32:10] <mhaberler> any angle, actually - like for compensating for a badly mounted vise
[18:32:20] <cradek> think of X=Y in 2d (diagonal line)
[18:32:43] <mhaberler> that's what I use it for, together with a touchoff along x or y to determine rotation of workpiece
[18:32:50] <cradek> sure, that's just an easy example
[18:33:49] <cradek> mhaberler: yes - seems like that is most of what rotation is good for
[18:34:03] <KimK> I follow the general Z rotation, but how does a 45 rotation around Z relate to use of G18? (For making an arc in X-Y, I mean)?
[18:34:39] <cradek> mhaberler: any other rotation (not around tool axis) kind of makes the tool shank get in the way
[18:34:54] <mhaberler> right
[18:34:55] <KimK> Once you're in G18, you're done making arcs in X-Y, aren't you?
[18:35:14] <cradek> the G18 and G19 planes rotate
[18:35:25] <KimK> Correct, I follow that.
[18:35:35] <cradek> I'm typing X equals Y (an equation of a plane)
[18:35:53] <cradek> I'm not talking about the plane XY (aka Z=0)
[18:36:29] <KimK> Ah, OK, now I'll have to back and review...
[18:36:45] <KimK> s/to back/to go back/
[18:37:09] <mhaberler> cradek: re remapping codes: the code is stable, all existing and another 10 or so new regression tests ok. Tooltable and iocontrol is amputated, a replacement toolstore class exists and I'm currently transplanting that - a lot of stitchng, kind of a frankenstein job
[18:37:36] <cradek> cool
[18:38:38] <cradek> I see how I wasn't clear
[18:39:06] <cradek> I'm saying you can put an arc in the plane X=Y where X,Y as used to describe this plane are unrotated
[18:39:29] <cradek> you do that by rotating the G18 plane +45 or the G19 plane -45
[18:40:10] <cradek> my explaining skills aren't working today
[18:40:47] <KimK> I think if you waved your hands more I'd be able to follow along better. I'll go back and re-read it a few more times and maybe the light will come on. Or maybe I need lunch.
[18:41:01] <cradek> heh
[18:41:28] <cradek> you can't make arbitrary arcs currently with our interpreter. you CAN take any program containing arcs and run it rotated and get the same output
[18:41:44] <cradek> that's because the G18,G19 arcs also work properly when rotated
[18:41:50] <KimK> Oh, OK, now *that* makes a lot of sense.
[18:41:59] <cradek> sorry :-)
[18:42:40] <cradek> I'm saying you can't rotate arcs other ways, like tipping them over. So you can't do trig in your program to do these rotations mhaberler is asking about.
[18:43:48] <KimK> OK. But still, rotating around X or Y as mhaberler is suggesting might come in handy in some cases.
[18:44:15] <cradek> it's not my position that it would never be handy
[18:44:36] <cradek> I bet 1% of users rotate around Z, and perhaps 1% of those occasionally want other rotations too
[18:45:13] <cradek> now that rotating around Z works 100% it's good to have, but for a while I kind of thought I was a fool for adding it.
[18:46:50] <KimK> No, I didn't mean to say that, I just meant to say that mhaberler has a good idea there. And yes, you're probably right about the 1% of 1% business. Oh, that was yours? Well, thanks for adding the Z rotation then, cool!
[18:48:21] <KimK> Are the C-like features that were added to EMC2 Gcode documented anywhere?
[18:49:11] <skunkworks_> are you talking about comp?
[18:49:43] <KimK> Or was that a module or plug-in or component or something, so that it's not really part of EMC2's gcode interpreter?
[18:50:14] <mhaberler> what do you mean by C-like - control stuctures?
[18:50:33] <KimK> comp for HAL components? No, not that. This was so youo could write Gcode programs that looked a lot like C-code. But I don't recall what all it could do.
[18:50:47] <KimK> s/youo/you/
[18:50:51] <skunkworks_> ah - I vaugly remmeber something about that
[18:51:08] <mhaberler> maybe you mean that Python shim
[18:51:11] <skunkworks_> Maybe on the email list
[18:51:29] <KimK> I'm still working on the docs, and it occurred to me I never saw anything about it.
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[18:54:26] <KimK> If anyone runs across anything about it, please post it here. Thanks.
[19:08:22] <mhaberler> cradek: grepping for rotate.. it is massive. Naive me though it's just a warp at the end of the processing pipeline..
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[19:29:10] <cradek> yeah it's totally not
[19:29:25] <cradek> everyone (who says it ought to be easy) seems to think that
[19:29:45] <cradek> for instance, consider that the tool table offsets don't rotate, but the work offsets do
[19:30:07] <mhaberler> uh
[19:31:11] <cradek> imagine two spindles at (unrotated) X=0 and X=1
[19:31:19] <cradek> tools in the right one have TLO X1
[19:31:38] <cradek> rotating the workpiece makes them NOT along the workpiece's X anymore
[19:32:07] <mhaberler> I feel a spindle vector is missing here
[19:32:08] <cradek> rotate workpiece 90 degrees, and when you load a tool in the right one, work Y coordinate changes
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[19:34:05] <cradek> now imagine getting workpiece touchoff, tool touchoff to workpiece, and tool touchoff to fixture working correctly
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[19:36:25] <mhaberler> the situation from where the question arose was actually a tilted spindle head, doing a circle rotated about Y a bit
[19:36:45] <cradek> you mean just a 5 axis machine?
[19:37:01] <mhaberler> no 3 axes but tiltable head
[19:37:45] <cradek> the head is not a controlled axis?
[19:37:50] <mhaberler> (manually, that is)
[19:37:51] <cradek> tilt I mean
[19:37:55] <cradek> hm ok
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[19:45:00] <cradek> if he had matching kins AND we had arcs in G17.1 plane, that would be a way to do it...
[19:47:52] <mhaberler> trying to grasp.. you mean head tilt angle would be an input param to kins?
[19:48:01] <cradek> yeah ... I guess so
[19:48:29] <cradek> putting an encoder on the head would be cool. you could have the tool tip stay in the same place on the workpiece as you manually tilted the head.
[19:48:35] <mhaberler> have to think through that, that interests my because my machine can do it and I try to come up with a use case ;-)
[19:48:39] <cradek> (X,Z would move)
[19:48:57] <cradek> is quill or table Z?
[19:49:46] <mhaberler> I am just an MBA.. bear with me.. I guess Z
[19:49:50] <mhaberler> I mean table
[19:50:10] <cradek> that's good, usually more travel there
[19:50:10] <mhaberler> hold on. digging a photo
[19:50:30] <skunkworks_> cradek: on the side note - your naming of the probing routines are different on a horizontal.. ;)
[19:51:06] <cradek> if you'd just put a cot next to it, you'd be fine
[19:51:21] <skunkworks_> heh
[19:52:45] <mhaberler> it's barely discernible here (top photo:
http://www.klippfeld.at/frame_de/bilder.php?id=F-12CNC&maschinen=fraes&produkte=haupt) - the round plate at the back of the head can be rotated
[19:53:17] <skunkworks_> that is a pretty common setup for that style machine
[19:53:24] <cradek> I see
[19:53:35] <cradek> Z is the whole head I assume
[19:53:41] <mhaberler> yes
[19:53:43] <cradek> er no, there's also a quill
[19:53:45] <skunkworks_> mhaberler: like
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhICrb0Tbn4
[19:54:07] <mhaberler> yep, same thing
[19:54:19] <skunkworks_> is that mach I see :(
[19:54:22] <cradek> problem looks like if you tilt the head more than a trivial amount, you'd be out of X travel
[19:54:34] <cradek> I doubt it's good for much tilt
[19:54:42] <mhaberler> not really, yes
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[19:57:39] <cradek> vastly superior tilting head configuration:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WCrqqoZkPg
[20:06:28] <skunkworks_> has bill been utilizing that a lot?
[20:07:05] <cradek> nah, it mostly sits idle, and has never done any real 5 axis type work
[20:08:04] <KimK> cradek: Sorry, please remind me, what dates are the git server likely to be down?
[20:08:27] <KimK> I'll write it down this time.
[20:08:35] <cradek> it should not be more than an afternoon or so, and I don't know when it will be
[20:08:44] <cradek> late july-august sometime
[20:08:58] <cradek> probably nobody would notice.
[20:09:05] <KimK> Oh, OK, a few hours, no problem at all then. Thanks!
[20:13:01] <mhaberler> I'm till trying to figure what a 'cirlce in the G17.1 plane' means ... sorry for the beginner question
[20:13:37] <cradek> G17.1 is UV; kinematics can make UV perpendicular to the tool vector
[20:13:55] <cradek> we already have drill cycles in those planes, G17.1 drill cycle is really useful.
[20:14:48] <mhaberler> thanks - I guess I have a starting point
[20:15:03] <cradek> there are all sorts of solutions :-)
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[20:15:45] <cradek> personally I'd just break the circle into lines and program it in 5 minutes and be done with it
[20:15:56] <KimK> cradek: Could you expand on that a little? ("...G17.1 drill cycle is really useful...) Or later if you're busy right now.
[20:16:00] <cradek> well 15 minutes
[20:16:24] <mhaberler> we're glued to the irc window!
[20:17:44] <cradek> if your kins make UVW rotate with the tool, you can drill whichever way the tool is pointing by simply drilling in W (which means UV plane, G17.1)
[20:18:02] <cradek> I thought I had a video example of it but I'm not finding it
[20:18:41] <KimK> Ah, OK. You 5-axis guys are plenty tricky.
[20:21:03] <cradek> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWKYQUj5AOs
[20:21:22] <cradek> this shows motion in W (the drill like motions at the end)
[20:24:09] <KimK> Now, was that machine rendering done with Vismach? The title bar just says "tk".
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[20:24:22] <cradek> yes
[20:24:34] <cradek> it's a sample config in the distribution, iirc
[20:24:54] <KimK> OK. That is something I am definitely going to have to read up on.
[20:25:09] <mhaberler> I just decided that there's a lot I dont know about EMC:..
[20:25:10] <cradek> there's a puma robot somewhere in there too
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[20:50:53] <skunkworks_> stupid question - if the kins are setup right - you coiuld use uvw as 'xyz' at the tool tip?
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[20:53:17] <cradek> yes
[20:53:37] <cradek> (except arcs don't work yet)
[20:55:12] <skunkworks_> thats ok.. that is what short line segments are for
[20:55:15] <skunkworks_> :)
[20:59:11] <cradek> Attention Winner, Your email has won One Million United States Of American Dollar from Canadian lottery promo in United Kingdom for more details and payment Contact Lottery Liaison Officer, with your full details below:
[20:59:36] <cradek> I guess lottery liaison officers aren't good at geography
[21:00:06] <SWPadnos> your lucky email. too bad you didn't win
[21:00:55] <KimK> That is a good one. American -> Canadian -> U.K. . Hey, they forgot Australia! The Aussies are offended now.
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