#emc-devel | Logs for 2010-06-09

[04:57:53] <voxadam> I've been thinking (this can be a dangerous thing)... NML may be great but it seems to me that a d-bus interface for building UIs would be nice as there are libraries for nearly every conceivable language and toolkit.
[05:40:16] <voxadam> Maybe a NML to D-Bus bridge could be written using emc.py from Axis.
[07:38:56] <SWPadnos> voxadam, does d-bus work over a network or a serial link? (as NML does)
[07:44:41] <voxadam> I was thinking about that... Since NML is already capable of being run over a network or serial line D-Bus doesn't need to be. [EMCTASK] <-- NML link --> [emc.py] <--> [D-Bus bridge] <-- D-Bus --> [UI]
[07:47:18] <SWPadnos> what's the gain?
[07:48:10] <voxadam> Not having to deal with NML when building custom UIs.
[07:50:49] <SWPadnos> but you'd have to deal with D-bus ... :)
[07:51:11] <SWPadnos> note that not all UIs are written in python
[07:51:20] <SWPadnos> in fact, only one is
[07:51:37] <SWPadnos> (though that wouldn't be a restriction using DBus as you've outlined)
[07:51:44] <voxadam> Exactly.
[07:52:07] <SWPadnos> it isn't a restriction now either, so again I don't see the benefit
[07:53:17] <voxadam> There aren't NML libs for every language like there are D-Bus libs.
[07:53:48] <SWPadnos> true, we've only got C/C++, tcl, and python
[07:54:14] <voxadam> I guess that should really be enough.
[07:54:40] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: and freepascal
[07:54:47] <voxadam> Really?
[07:54:55] <SWPadnos> yeah, I was going to mention that, but wasn't sure what he had used :)
[07:55:02] <voxadam> Who still writes Pascal?
[07:55:02] <alex_joni> voxadam: there's a new configurable GUI called mocca
[07:55:11] <alex_joni> voxadam: gtom
[07:55:14] <alex_joni> apparently :D
[07:55:20] <alex_joni> to each his own
[07:55:29] <voxadam> It
[07:55:39] <voxadam> It's one of the great things about open source
[07:58:43] <SWPadnos> there are some folks who really really like FreePascal as a RAD system
[07:58:50] <SWPadnos> the successor to Delphi
[07:58:53] <SWPadnos> (kind of)
[07:59:18] <voxadam> I guess it could be worse, they could like Cobal or something.
[07:59:27] <SWPadnos> APL
[08:00:42] <voxadam> Or Java
[08:00:50] <SWPadnos> heh
[08:00:59] <SWPadnos> yeah, or BASIC
[08:01:27] <voxadam> VB
[08:01:56] <SWPadnos> Pascal was actually pretty good back in the day
[08:02:10] <SWPadnos> when TurboPascal had many libraries available
[08:03:29] <voxadam> I think someone should port EMCMOT to Fortran.
[08:03:47] <voxadam> Or maybe erlang.
[08:04:08] <SWPadnos> assembly language
[08:04:12] <SWPadnos> using AT&T syntax
[08:04:18] <voxadam> I like it.
[08:04:32] <SWPadnos> don't come back until it's done!
[08:04:40] <SWPadnos> err, I mean "good night, and good luck"
[08:05:15] <voxadam> Maybe I'll try porting it to ActionScript.
[08:05:34] <SWPadnos> don't hut yourself
[08:05:37] <SWPadnos> hurt
[08:38:28] <alex_joni> Flash :D
[08:38:54] <alex_joni> voxadam: there is an emc Java GUI
[08:44:36] <voxadam> alex_joni: Is there an NML library for Java?
[08:50:44] <alex_joni> voxadam: yes
[08:51:02] <alex_joni> rcslib (the original NIST code) is multi-platform/multi-language
[08:51:11] <alex_joni> emc1 used that directly
[08:51:32] <voxadam> Is RCS still used in emc2?
[08:51:36] <alex_joni> emc2 uses a subset called libnml which eliminated some of the "unused" features
[08:55:29] <alex_joni> voxadam: otoh rcslib has been improved since the version that has been integrated in emc1, and later taken over into emc2
[09:01:12] <alex_joni> mozmck: think you can upload a 2.4.1 package to http://linuxcnc.org/mozmck/ ?
[09:01:20] <voxadam> If NML is capable of running over a network what is the purpose of emcrsh?
[09:02:09] <alex_joni> doing the same thing with a simpler interface
[09:02:28] <alex_joni> with a telnet like interface, where you can connect to from any language/platform
[09:02:36] <alex_joni> even manually if you want
[09:02:52] <alex_joni> I think the guy that wrote emcrsh used it for some windows GUI
[09:03:31] <voxadam> It provides a interactive text based interface?
[09:05:01] <voxadam> I can't imagine trying to build a GUI using such an interface.
[09:18:01] <alex_joni> it's similar to fetching mails
[09:18:43] <alex_joni> and yet most programs for reading email have GUIs using the same kind of interface to retrieve messages
[09:19:00] <alex_joni> some have UIs (the non-X apps like mutt, alpine, etc)
[10:50:51] <alex_joni> KimK: so now both 10.04 + 2.4.0 work for you
[10:50:57] <alex_joni> and 2.4.1 works ok with the ppmc ?
[12:22:11] <alex_joni> hey samco
[12:35:02] <skunkworks> Hi alex
[12:35:05] <skunkworks> How is it going?
[12:59:20] <jepler> alex_joni: 2.4.1 still had ppmc problems, hopefully fixed by 00a2bcf Use ECP control register to request EPP mode
[13:39:47] <alex_joni> ah, ok
[13:39:50] <alex_joni> skunkworks: busy ;)
[13:45:32] <alex_joni> skunkworks: was wondering how your projects are.. K&T, puma, ...
[13:45:33] <alex_joni> ;)
[13:47:15] <mozmck> alex_joni: I'll try to upload a 2.4.1 package tomorrow. Should it be 2.4.1 or the current v2.4_branch?
[13:47:59] <mozmck> been quite busy here myself the last week :(
[13:51:55] <jepler> either would be fine. If you use the current v2.4_branch then remember to run debian/update-dch-from-git to create a changelog that indicates differences from 2.4.1.
[13:58:11] <mozmck> ok.
[14:24:20] <cradek> skunkworks: I finished homing for locking rotaries the other night
[14:24:34] <cradek> skunkworks: I was wrong: it's not in 2.4 OR master yet
[14:25:00] <cradek> skunkworks: I still have to figure out what to do about jogs. I think just disallowing jogging will be the ticket.
[16:07:49] <skunkworks> cradek: very cool! I can't wait to test it.
[16:08:33] <cradek> what do you think about jogging?
[16:11:56] <skunkworks> well - I don't think it should be an issue if I can home. from that point on I can tell it where to go.
[16:13:21] <cradek> yeah I guess my thought is if there are only certain acceptable positions, using g0 to get there is the most obvious
[16:13:51] <cradek> on the other hand, something like incremental jog can make sense
[16:14:10] <cradek> I don't see how to reject invalid target positions
[16:15:17] <skunkworks> I am not going to worry about that. If I program a wrong move - oh well.
[16:15:50] <cradek> I assume the machine will fail to lock then, and if it fails to lock, emc won't continue
[16:16:09] <cradek> not sure what the recovery process is -- maybe home again?
[16:28:06] <cradek> anyway, any time you're ready to play with it, you can merge it into v2.4_branch or master and try it
[16:28:19] <cradek> I'll put it in master as soon as I figure out what to do about jogging, I think.
[16:31:18] <skunkworks> right - there are limit switches to know if the table is locked.
[16:33:32] <skunkworks> did you see my question yesterday? How to keep the internal estop pressed after the external estop has been released... (if that made sense)
[16:34:20] <skunkworks> I only see a halui pin that would allow me to 'push' the internal estop so it stays down/
[16:34:29] <cradek> skunkworks: fire up demo_sim_cl and look at the top rung
[16:34:37] <cradek> halui is not involved
[16:34:45] <skunkworks> hmm - I will look again.
[16:35:10] <skunkworks> it must not have been making sense yesterday.
[16:35:52] <cradek> triggering the ladder with E-RESET (the iocontrol signal that comes on briefly when you try to enable by hitting F1 in the gui) is the key
[16:36:44] <skunkworks> oh - ok. I looked at that - but didn't have time to try it.
[16:37:50] <skunkworks> I actally halmetered that pin - whatever it was (iocontrol user mumble..) and saw it go true for a bit.
[16:39:25] <skunkworks> I wasn't making the connection though ;)
[16:40:03] <skunkworks> literally ;)
[17:21:16] <KimK> alex_joni: (1) Yes, 2.4.0 is running on 10.04, only one sim looked at so far. I'll try a actual (Mesa) config soon if I can get the firmware. (2) v2.4_branch/2.4.1plus/2.4.2pre is working (8.04) with John's pico-systems USC. Looking good so far. Thanks again for your help, I'll look forward to fiddling with EMC on 10.04.
[17:23:07] <Jymmm> imnsho... Ubuntu 10.04 was released WAY TOO EARLY, can be flaky
[17:35:09] <andypugh> I hope I am not making folks' teeth itch too badly discussing kinematics with Visteurs?
[17:35:53] <morficmobile> i thought it was more coding than kinematics?
[17:36:28] <andypugh> Yes, guess so,
[18:01:05] <cradek> you're a hero for trying to help, but I don't think emc-users is the place to teach C programming.
[18:04:04] <cradek> saying that you can't figure out what "double" means is a sign that you haven't done ANY work to try to figure things out for yourself... I avoid helping people who don't figure things out for themselves because it's an albatross.
[18:11:24] <cradek> (maybe tmi.)
[18:12:11] <Jymmm> cradek: http://blogs.seattleweekly.com/voracious/in-n-out-double-double.jpg
[18:12:33] <cradek> is that called the albatross?
[18:13:13] <Jymmm> cradek: It's called mighty tasty in my book, especially if it's animal style =)
[19:10:00] <ries_> ries_ is now known as ries
[19:50:23] <KimK> Anticipating the creation of new repositories for 10.04/lucid, and following the format used with 8.04, I added new non-existent repositories to Synaptic: http://imagebin.ca/view/J2igihl.html And of course, since they don't exist yet, I got "not found" errors: http://imagebin.ca/view/9po-jlw.html Is the 8.04 repository format being followed for 10.04/lucid? Do these errors seem correct/expected? Is it OK to leave it this way? (The EMC key is installed, I
[19:50:23] <KimK> should be ready to receive upgrades). Thanks, any advice appreciated.
[19:50:34] <KimK> Oops
[19:51:14] <cradek> it'll probably be the same I guess
[19:53:07] <KimK> OK, thanks, and if you think of any reason why I should hold off doing this, please let me know.
[20:05:23] <alex_joni> KimK: since everything is working for you, you'll be receiving an invoice soon
[20:07:32] <alex_joni> I wonder how this guy ended with that location..
[20:07:34] <alex_joni> http://www.linuxcnc.org/component/option,com_kunena/Itemid,20/func,view/catid,21/id,3091/lang,en/index.php#3093
[20:07:43] <alex_joni> cd /usr/src/emc2-2.4.1/scripts
[20:18:10] <jepler> "you've obviously f---ed something up but as we don't have access to your system and barely believe the few specific details you've reported, we don't feel we can help you at this time."
[20:18:19] <jepler> </reason I don't post much on the users list and never on the forum>
[20:23:10] <alex_joni> jepler: no kidding ;)
[20:24:18] <skunkworks> http://cnczone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=511991&postcount=6
[20:24:20] <skunkworks> ;)
[20:24:35] <skunkworks> oh 'the' forum.
[20:24:45] <skunkworks> not 'a' forum
[20:24:53] <skunkworks> never mind :)
[20:28:21] <jepler> I suppose the acronym 'lmgtfy' didn't exist in 2007 yet
[20:34:12] <alex_joni> http://imagebin.ca/view/IEDfQ5.html
[20:35:47] <skunkworks> mocca!
[20:36:17] <cradek> cool, they copied the extents idea from AXIS
[20:37:31] <cradek> (but yikes, should've copied the font too) :-)
[20:38:21] <alex_joni> and they added a big button to switch it on/off
[20:39:07] <cradek> is there any new kind of breakthrough in mocca? I can't read the labels so I can't guess if it does anything new and cool
[20:39:28] <alex_joni> one thing is that the GUI is built based on an xml file
[20:39:42] <alex_joni> so you can describe what goes where, and what the buttons read
[20:39:46] <cradek> well, I meant functionality as a machine control
[20:40:01] <alex_joni> well.. it only does what emc2 always did
[20:40:10] <alex_joni> I doubt there are any new "features"
[20:40:51] <cradek> I can see it's user configurable (like mach, that's why things don't line up or fit very well and it looks kind of amateurish)
[20:41:09] <skunkworks> heh
[20:41:21] <cradek> I shouldn't have said that
[20:41:30] <skunkworks> I won't tell
[20:42:00] <skunkworks> I want clouds in the back ground.
[20:42:21] <alex_joni> skunkworks: you can add a custom picture to the background
[20:42:29] <skunkworks> heh
[20:43:45] <cradek> I'm having trouble understanding the widgets - what works like radiobuttons, what works like checkbuttons, what works like buttons, what works like tabs
[20:44:14] <cradek> /Blocke is like a checkbutton
[20:44:22] <cradek> Editor... is like a button
[20:44:30] <cradek> start/stop/pause might be like radio buttons maybe?
[20:44:59] <alex_joni> cradek: one thing they added are scripts
[20:45:19] <cradek> for some of the indicators like the yellow rectangle to the right of 100% under Spindel, I don't understand what they're connected to
[20:45:32] <alex_joni> those are actually programs, called name.mdi
[20:45:34] <cradek> alex_joni: what kind of scripts?
[20:45:46] <alex_joni> which you can connect to various buttons
[20:46:00] <alex_joni> somehting like tool_measure.mdi
[20:46:08] <alex_joni> etc
[20:46:16] <alex_joni> basicly a collection of MDI commands
[20:46:20] <cradek> it sends those lines one at a time as mdi?
[20:47:06] <cradek> (jepler wrote a similar extension to touchy, using O<macro-sub> call, but O-call doesn't work well enough)
[20:47:30] <jepler> O-call from MDI specifically
[20:47:32] <cradek> sending it as mdi is a fine workaround I guess
[20:47:53] <cradek> why not just open the program and run it though? (then maybe reopen the original one)
[20:51:11] <dgarr> jepler: are you planning to commit emc_pkg_update_v3.mbox to master? my comment was: ok with me
[20:51:12] <dgarr>
[20:51:25] <alex_joni> cradek: I'm not sure how it's implemented
[20:52:43] <jepler> dgarr: hm, I forget if there was something that still bugged me about it..
[20:54:20] <alex_joni> cradek: another thing they included support for rotating/skewing coordinates
[20:54:26] <alex_joni> but you have to use millkins.c
[20:54:39] <alex_joni> mocca exports some hal pins which are then connected to millkins
[20:55:30] <jepler> if that actually works we should copy it. how do they get around the discontinuity problem when changing?
[20:56:29] <jepler> * jepler will always hate UIs with m--h style button-and-colored-indicator. it's a visceral thing I just can't get over..
[20:58:44] <alex_joni> apparently you can use mach skins directly
[20:59:24] <jepler> that's another thing that would never have been a design goal of mine
[20:59:30] <jepler> thank goodness for open source.
[21:00:32] <cradek> emc can already rotate coordinates (without the discontinuity problem)
[21:01:05] <cradek> I don't see how you can rotate OR scale in kins and have the machine behave correctly
[21:01:38] <alex_joni> heh, the instructions to compile mocca remind me of AXIS
[21:01:43] <alex_joni> AXIS the early days..
[21:01:58] <cradek> for once I'm not nostalgic
[21:02:12] <alex_joni> EMCDIR = /home/dein_name/emc2/emc2-2.3.4
[21:02:13] <alex_joni> INCLUDES = -I/usr/include/emc2
[21:02:19] <alex_joni> something like that
[21:06:08] <jepler> the intent is that UIs be buildable with the emc2-dev package installed, no source tree required. if it's not, I want a good bug report so we can fix it..
[21:06:15] <alex_joni> http://axis.unpy.net/downloads/01118085613
[21:06:24] <alex_joni> 5 years this week
[21:07:01] <jepler> hah, from before I was convinced emc2 was viable
[21:07:53] <alex_joni> jepler: of course
[21:10:23] <KimK> jepler: I Googled "m--h screen sets" and "m--h screen designer", could you point out one of the "...button-and-colored-indicator[s]..." that you dislike?
[21:11:15] <alex_joni> http://media.unpythonic.net/axis-files/01118963491/emc2.png
[21:11:27] <alex_joni> KimK: check the imagebin picture I pasted earlier
[21:11:32] <jepler> KimK: like the button labeled "mm" in http://imagebin.ca/view/IEDfQ5.html
[21:11:43] <alex_joni> 23:33 < alex_joni> http://imagebin.ca/view/IEDfQ5.html
[21:12:04] <cradek> jepler: baby pictures!
[21:15:19] <KimK> jepler: OK, thanks. And I presume you would not like it any better if it was upside down (light above button)?
[21:15:47] <jepler> KimK: it's nothing to do with the relative position of the text and the colored region
[21:17:34] <jepler> "just use a checkbutton, it's already in your GUI toolkit"
[21:17:54] <KimK> jepler: I'll take that as a no, lol
[21:45:31] <andypugh> Despite the fact that my servos are half the rated torque of my steppers, I have now got them moving my Z axis at 2000mm.min compared to the 660mm.min that the stepper could manage.
[21:46:54] <jepler> yeah, servo and stepper torque can't be directly compared
[21:48:48] <andypugh> Can you combine kinematics modules? Like rotatekins for a gantry machine?
[21:48:53] <jepler> andypugh: no
[21:50:22] <andypugh> Looks like Viesturs will be making a very special-purpose kinematics module then.
[23:16:54] <voxadam> Is there an Imax term in emc's PID implementation to avoid integral "wind-up"?
[23:18:56] <andypugh> pid.N.maxerrorI
[23:19:11] <andypugh> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html//man/man9/pid.9.html
[23:19:29] <voxadam> Thanks.
[23:27:10] <andypugh> I have just noticed that http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html//man/man9/rotatekins.9.html is wrong
[23:28:02] <andypugh> It says that the X and Y are rotated 45 degrees relative to (0,1) whereas they are rotated according to the value of C. (much more useful...)