too bad they aren't starting this month
I think they are open the 20th
yeah. I may take advantage of that
though if they're crowded I may choose to go there on a weekday
I basically have two choices at the moment: 1) have a friend go with me on Thursday/Friday, with Saturday as an overflow travel day
or 2) do it myself Friday, Saturday and Sunday
if you are talking about the lathe pickup, the driveway will be a lot more crowded on saturday
there's also the possibility of going a week later, like the day after Christmas, and spending a couple of days at Niagara Falls with my wife
but she doesn't want to take off work next Friday or Monday to go earlier
cradek, did you do anything special with the chip guards? (like removing them, padding, bungeed open or closed ... )
bungeed open, I think
otherwise you can't tie it down
plexiglass isn't so good for holding tons of steel
steves_logging is now known as steve_stallings
SWP - watch out for loose areas in the tarp, the wind will beat the sh*** out of it
if I did it again, I would try to get a pallet plastic wrapper thing
it would be easy to cover the tarp with it
recheck straps after a few miles, and especially if they get wet, they will stretch
heh - yeah, I know tarps get beaten up pretty badly
the tarp lasted pretty much half the trip back
it was still better than nothing, but not much
and water on the lathe will not be fatal if you can get it dry soon after arriving home
there's still blue dust everywhere
I'm planning on taking it easy on the way back - ~250 miles one day and ~350-400 the second
so I get time to browse on loading day :)
I'm just trying to figure out how to figure out the tongue weight
make sure you take some squished air on the road with you to boost tires if one goes slack
we don't have one
and I don't think they go that high :)
(of course I could buy one - I know that :) )
scaling 2:1 is easy if you have some 4x4 scrap with you (and you should)
arrange to have a couple of hundred pounds of stuff that you can relocate on the trailer
if the trailer wants to wag the car, put more weight on the tongue
yep. I can probably buy a few hundred pounds of extra stuff if necessary ;)
the Jeep is ~4500 pounds, the trailer and load will be 5500+
but it does have brakes on both axels
or axles even
I could not figure out a way to test the trailer brakes except "seems to stop ok" - I would have been happier if I had had a way to test them.
yeah. I know the feeling
testing when you're about to rear-end someone isn't ideal
or at any other time on the interstate, more or less
relative weight is not a killer, I towed 14K lbs with a 6K vehicle, pulled easily and smoothly
what seemed amazing was how often I had to stop for gas...
if you can test the trailer brakes independent of tow vehicle it can increase your confidence
(I'm not used to driving a truck)
I have to do that anyway with the Jeep
I was able to stop truck and trailer with just trailer brakes from 20 MPH
how did you do that test?
I get 22 or so on the highway, I'm expecting half that if I'm lucky
oh, all you need is a battery and a rider on the trailer
inertial controllers have a lever or button on them to test
with balls and no brain
that doesn't test the truck's brake output
I'll have to see what's on this trailer - I don't know what it has
electric or surge?
electric I believe
do you have a brake controller in the Jeep, or just plan on splicing into the brake lights?
well, I'm not sure
it's wired with a 7-pin jack, if that tells you anything
it has the towing option
brake lights can be jerky since they do not modulate
I'm pretty sure my friend has towed this trailer with my Jeep, but I'm not positive
OK, factor docs should tell you something, perhaps you even have a brake controller of some sort
yeah. I could check now, but those are outside and I'm inside and well ...
and it's fing cold
not that cold - it's above 20
more or less
7-pin and about 1.25 diameter? that is a standard heavy duty trailer setup
yeah, it's the kind of thing you'd use with a rather large RV
hope you do not encounter ice or snow on your trip
yeah, that's one reason for a two day return trip
that would be cause to cancel or lay over a couple of nights
I should get snow tires before I go
may help, but not major since the most dangerous mode is stopping not pulling
I would not even tow that in rain - no way for snow - you'd have to be insane
maybe for the trailer ;)
just take it to JMK's place and park it until spring
I don't think he has room for it, or he just might have gotten it for himself :)
is it 5C or 16C?
I don't know. it has what looks like an air chuck on it
they made both
5C would have a threaded chuck mount, 16C would be A2-5
oh - interesting
I also don't know if it has the 3HP or 5HP spindle motor
or the 2HP spindle motor
Hardinge thread is unique, something like 2-3/16, 10 TPI
luckily you can turn that if you have a lathe
yep, takes a lot of luck to find a chuck for it
the chuck is probably worth most of the cost of the lathe
the chuck and tool holders almost certainly so
comes with tool holders?
some with tools in them
hope they are a useful combination
yeah, I thought so
some boring, at least one turning with a standard insert
or maybe one of the boring bars had a standard insert - don't recal
yeah. it'll be good
I have some duplicates I don't need - if you do too, maybe we can trade some stuff around.
ok, I'll let you know
Hardinge stuff is not that rare, there were a lot of them
it is common for a Southbend owner to accidentally purchase a Hardinge chuck
then sell it cheap! 8-)
now I'm looking for sapre/replacement tooling plates, and there aren't any around
there used to be, between $100 and $500 (depending)
gee, ready to sell your soul? now what do I need.....
if you want some things that I can (a) buy and (b) carry to Galesburg *without* the trailer, let me know ;)
if you get one with the lathe, you will probably find that you will only want another if you go into production and want to save a setup
I think you could get them for 3/8 and 1/2 height tools - mine is the 3/8
1/2 would be better to have.
hmmm. do you have any boring bar holders?
or "round shank tool" holders
yeah, a few, not enough really
(same thing, different name)
hmm, maybe I'm wrong about there being two heights - those holders wouldn't work
ok, the ones on this are 5/8". what are yours?
yes, there are two styles, and I cannot remember which lathes they came on but they shipped based on type of lathe, i.e. AHC vs NC
5/8 is the diameter, not the height offset
of course I have 3/4 boring bars
just made me think of it
I have one or two that have a 3/4 hole actually. don't know if they came that way or not.
I think I spotted a knurling tool holder for $30 (?)
the hole pokes out the bottom - doesn't seem original
I probably need to look at this stuff before I'll be able to discuss it intelligently
Hardinge did offer 3/4" for the tailstock turret stuff, but I do not remember any for the tooling plate
did you lay the control down for the trip?
it was upright, wrapped in plastic so all the doors would stay shut
why are you bringing the control home?
ok, all the transformers on the bottom?
it has very good stuff in it
I think they'd charge me more to leave it :)
not all, but the two heavy ones are on the bottom
plus, if the motor drives work that's a bonus
(it has a dozen or so)
yeah you really want the servo transformer and drives, I would think
yea, but air motors don't count
this is an HNC, not an AHC
unless you have a different conversion scheme in mind
my hope is that everything works
my backup is that I can put new servos and drives on it :)
tooling: 3 turning toolholders, one has a tool in it, which in turn has a rather standard 80 degree diamond insert
the others are just holders
I finally found a drive for the 200W Yaskawa AC servo a friend has
5 boring holders, 5/8" holes, two or three of which have HSS boring tools
are the boring holders one or two bolt style?
my guess is that 200 watt AC servos would be marginal on this machine, 400 watt would be better
the 200W is free :)
cradek: not sure I know what you mean
it may be OK for X
two bolts (nuts actually) hold the holder to the turret
setscrews (I think) hold the tools in the holders
nice. some have only one bolt, so they can turn, not suitable for drills etc.
SWPadnos: you are thinking about replacing the motors?
I'm more thinking about what to do if I have to replace the motors
cross that bridge if/when you come to it
I bet they are fine
yep. I'm less worried about motors than the drives
and if not, I'd seek out identical replacements before kluging something in there
but I do have a few analog drives here
the motors are DC aren't they cradek?
yes, keep the motors if possible, mounts are strange
so drives won't be a big deal if it comes to that
so I've heard
yeah. I have some that will probably work, though probably not at the right voltage
that was something like 100-110V, right?
DC bus is 90V
amps take 90, +-12 to 15
oh, that's good
I think the drives I have are 80 or 100
it says peak is 85V 25A
as a bonus, there is a tape in the reader
great. I have 30A 80V drives :)
in case you want to make whatever the lathe made last
I wonder what it does :)
maybe the thing actually works
oh. resolver input would be a pain
I wonder how hard it is gonna be to find top jaws for the chuck
air chuck or mechanical
air I believe
no sign of a place to insert a chuck key, and "stuff" on the back end of the spindle
confusing stuff actually
there is one short, wide thing, probably a cylinder, about 6" dia x 2" thick, with two air lines
those are disconnected (quick-connects)
I have some for one brand, not Microcentric but the other common one...
and the hoses from the lathe are hooked to a smaller cylinder (or something) that is farther out the back (actually sticks out thru a hole in the plexiglass
that may be for the barfeeder
no, the smaller thing completely blocks the spindle hole
I suspect it may be the actuator for the chuck
when you remove the chuck and the small thing, I bet the spindle bore is clear for bars
I'm guessing the larger thing is the actuator for collets
I should have taken my camera
I was just thinking that I should have suggested it :)
but I didn't think of it
air chucks for a Hardinge are typically ones with an air bladder inside rather than pulled by a drawbar
cradek: what does your air-drawbar look like?
steve_stallings: hmm - the thing on the back end is small, maybe it is just a rotary air joint (equiv of slip rings)?
the air chuck actuactor has a rotary air union to feed the tube running to the chuck
I bet thats what I saw
there are usually two air lines and the chuck is positive open and positive close
about 1 or 1.5" diameter, 2" or so long, two air lines
the tube is acutally coaxial with two air paths
the tube thru the spindle bore?
I'm getting a photo
tube thru the bore
that sounds very much like what I saw
tube is typically 3/8" to 1/2" diameter
the large diameter thing that is disconnected is probably the collet drawbar cylinder
[04:17:06] <cradek> http://timeguy.com/cradek-files/emc/pict6437.jpg
the smaller one passes right thru it, rotary union on the back, and you switch the hoses from the rotary union to the collet actuator depending on the type of work you are doing
drawbar cylinders are typically 5" to 7" diameter and would have to be completely out of the way to set up the rotary union for an air chuck
yep - where you have those brass tubes, this machine has shorter tubes and quick-disconnects
those are disconnects
then the other part (rotary union) passes thru the center and sticks out farther to the right
cradek: you have disconnects on the ends of fairly long pipes, I think this one has shorter pipes (minor difference)
OK, I guess that if the feed tube were long enough the collet closer could be left in place, but that is not typical
the black hoses in cradek's picture mate with smaller hoses that go to the rotary union
cradek: what are the two black hoses on the left going up? cutoff slide?
you can't see it well, but there's also some cutoff slide stuff there
behind the encoder housing
swp's lathe has a plate mounted on the flat where the cutoff slide would go, with a rod sticking up that supports the cutting oil nozzle(s)
cradek, cutoff slide stuff in the back?
here is a link to one popular aftermarket collet closer that is actually more common than the Hardinge factory one: http://www.dunhamtool.com/air_collet_closer.html
(or in the front, so we can't see it?)
SWPadnos: it's from above
I have not used it - it may not even be wired right - it randomly goes up and down, always has even with the old control
right - the slide is the thing we can't quite see because it goess out of frame at the top of your photo, right?
bad SSR or something maybe
isn't it air actuated?
PSSSSSSSSSSTTTTTT [slide moves up]
dead solenoid and variable pressure?
PSSSSSSSSSSTTTTTT [slide moves down]
steve_stallings, nice looking collet closers there
that's my impression of the cutoff slide.
* cradek bows
[04:24:44] <jmkasunich> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvCXdyjxKkk
* SWPadnos applauds, by tapping two fingers on my palm
shows soem of the spindle drivetrain
at about 0:21 you get a glimpse of the cutoff slide
again at 0:30
I took off the back cover ( 0:55 and later), things in there look decent
motor turns freely, etc
both clutches were disengaged, brake was engaged
did you figure out how to disengage the brake?
Northfield and Microcentric are the two most common air chucks. They use soft jaws cut to fit the job. Movable jaw hard jaws do exist for some air chucks, but these were not common on Hardinges.
this one has soft jaws on it, pie style
I assumed that was just for a specific job and that the norm is hard jaws
Hardinge users were usually after high accuracy and soft jaws are the way to get it.
hmmm. anyone know what the difference is between the Advanced Motion Controls 30A8T and the 30A8V?
[04:36:49] <jmkasunich> http://www.drautochuck.com/AFT_SwivelJoints.htm
the top right pic or 2nd row center seems like the widget on the back end of the spindle
huh. thanks for finding that
classic setup for an air tube execpt missing the collar to keep the tube centered in the spindle
ok, so I guess I don't know why there's a tube and the rotary union
if that's indeed what both things are
the rotary union and tube feeds air to the chuck when you are using the chuck
remove chuck and union, connect to the regular cylinder as in cradek's photo to use collets
ah, ok. for some reason I thought the rotary union also had an air path to the chuck connected to it
heh, a pic is worth 1000 words - you'll see it soon
general understanding of how these things work would also be good :)
rotary union and feed tube supply air to alternate sides of a diaphram inside the chuck to open and close the chuck
yep - I caught that there need to be two air paths - I assumed for the equivalent of a double-acting cylinder
steve_stallings: the chuck can clamp just as well when "opening" as closing, right?
you may have to swap the hoses :)
the soft jaws that are on there right now seem to be machined to clamp something from inside
I think so, but I have not actually seen jaws set up for inside expansion to clamp
in any event, the mechanism inside the chuck is double acting
jmkasunich, I couldn't tell the chuck size from the HGR photo - what size do you think it is?
(looked like 5 or 6 inches maybe)
more like 5 than 6
steve_stallings, a non-descriptive image and description are here: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=320274513641
but I'm sure you;ve seen them before :)
one of those "need to learn how to work it" things will be the barfeeder
the mounting around the spindle nose is 5.500" so you should be able to tell 5 vs 6 from the photo
looks like 5.75 then
sure might be 6
beige paint? yuck!
supposed to be gray?
that pic doesn't show one piece
chuck mount is not A2-5 because the chuck would be flat against the spindle if it were, therefore treaded and 5C
there is a 9' long tube with an oiler hanging off one side, part of the feeder
hopefully all the doodads will stay with it until Friday
they are tagged 1/4, 2/4, etc, and g/w (goes with) the item number
I could use this to unload: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370129069637
item in cincinatto, winch not working
maybe not then ;)
there should be another piece to the feeder I think, another floor stand with a small rectangular column with some pneumatic controls on it
two stands total?
not sure, I have never seen a running setup but I have seen the other style of stand with the controls
I have no idea how the barfeeder even works
I wouldn't be totally surprised if some parts of the feeder didn't make it, considering that the machine is set up as a chucker
I'm reasonably sure it won't matter - I'm not sure I'd have room to use it anyway
it would be interesting to get it working though
OK, here is a link to the style of stand I remember, but it does not jive with what SWP bought, so..... http://www.kitmondo.com/ViewListing.aspx?lid=145228&prodName=HARDINGE_AHC
do those things come in sections?
it's possible that there's a section and a stand missing
a stand anyway
so far I have failed to find photos of a setup similar to SWP's, however I did hit this excellent document from Hardinge about collets, feeders, pullers etc.
[05:11:57] <steve_stallings> http://www.hardingetooling.com/usr/PDFfiles/2316.pdf
it starts with the word "basic" - perfect for me :)
OK, here is a photo with the two stands, but still not one with the tripod like SWP's http://inv.camachinery.com/q/webinv/001307=p,4666,0B1120,,list,,,20115009,,
the base style is probably not a big deal
I'm just trying to figure out how it is used
obviously the end with the long "tray" can slide, and it pivots around the other end
which end faces the lathe?
me too... bar feeders are available that push with hydraulics, air, and gravity using a cable
maybe the sliding end? slide forward, insert bar from headstock end of tube, slide back to align with spindle bore
seem likely, that explains the wide support for the tube
then my guess would be that these are pneumatic feeds and the missing stand has the valve and regulator for the air to push the stock
where is RayH when you need him?
away, it seems
steve_stallings: the ebay pic shows some claptrap on that stand
it does look like there's a hose, and it's the part with the slide on it
URL again please...
[05:27:54] <jmkasunich> http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/images/products/21-211-041.jpg
[05:28:05] <SWPadnos> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=320274513641
not sure what I am seeing, it does seem that there is a clamp or something to hold the tube to the left side of the support tray
the tube itself has an oiler attached to the side, about 1/3 of the way from one end
is the other stuff on the stand or on the lathe behind it?
I didn't look closer, couldn't say if both ends are open
I think its on the stand
the only thing that sticks out of the lathe past the chip guard is the air chuck union, and that is only about 2"
it's also at the spindle center height, and the claptrap in the pic is clearly lower
logic would seem to be that there is a plug in the tube that is pushed by air and it in turn pushes the stock
oil in the tube would probably be used to make a seal around plug to retain air pressure
and to ease friction between tube and workpiece
returning the plug to the start position would be just push the stock into the tube
feed would be apply air for a moment and let a stop on the tooling plate arrest the motion
the other way to do it is to do what cradek does: pull the stock with the cutoff tool :)
alternative for those without room for a long stock feeder is to pull the stock
bar feeders sure have changed in 20-30 years: http://www.haascnc.com/MAIN_high-prod_ServoBar.asp#highprod
use a short, 12" - 18" support tube to keep the stock from whipping on the outboard end of the headstock
there are lots of friction based or coolant pressure activated pullers
cradek cuts a shallow groove with the parting tool, then uses the tool to drag the stock, then finishes parting
OK for stock large enough to take a groove and provided you can afford to waste a short bit of stock to cut off after pulling
no, he uses the same groove as the parting tool makes
cut a little, stop the spindle, open collet, pull, close collet, start spindle, continue parting
he pulls for the next part before cutting off the last part
unless the finished piece is short, it must be cut off and a new groove used to pull, else the cutoff is too far from the collet and it will chatter
it was a short part
[05:40:40] <jmkasunich> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWuOZutnjTk
OK, if it works, don't knock it.. 8-)
Cradek needs a CNC coolant hose positioner 8-)
much like Stewarts two arm tool changer
the pull is at 4:09
still a lot of "stick out" for a cutoff operation in my opinion
I think it is aluminum
that does help
this does show the bar flying out to an end stop on teh turret: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrurHT_Klm0
and there's a facing tool that's presumably justa tad closer to the collet, so they pop the bar out, then face it off, using one turret position
yes, this is typically how a bar feeder is used, sometimes they even use rotating stops so the stock continues to rotate while being fed
I get the impression in that vid that the bar never stops spinning
looks like this guy gets lots of curly swarf in his parts catcher 8-)
yes, but the oil probably does not jam the chute
OT - amazing what they used to accomplish with just cams and micrometer stops - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2rgGPT5vW8&feature=related
yeah, no kidding
oh. good plan
suits me too, yawn...
steve_stallings is now known as steves_logging
the HAL_User_Manual.pdf is not in my usr/share/doc/emc2 directory but the HAL_User_Manual_fr.pdf is... Anyone know why it is missing?
I looked in the submakefile and all seems to be correct there...
any errors from the build?
[12:57:50] <alex_joni> http://www.linuxcnc.org/old-www/irclogs/2004/%23emc.freenode.20040718.log
<- stumbled upon my first visit to #emc ;)
not that I know of it is the original install on this computer
same on my 8.04 computer...
with 2.2.7 ?
looking at the deb now
(sizewise I don't see anything strange..)
I want to add it to the menu
it seems you're correct
let me try to fix that
will you add it to the menu also?
if you insist :D
Oh, I insist :)
ok then, since you're the docs doc I'll do it in a sec.
the hostmot 2 updates are a bit large :)
yay, got an slight internet connection upgrade
[13:16:43] <alex_joni> http://www.speedtest.net/result/372138814.png
* BigJohnT is fast today at 49.2Kbps
BigJohnT: will do the hal manual later.. hope that's ok
will it be in the 2.2.8?
sure.. I'll ask jepler to wait a bit for me :)
BigJohnT: you didn't add the keystick doc to the html index page
alex_joni: ok, I'll fix that
BigJohnT: seems someone purposedly removed the HAL_User_Manual.pdf
take it up with jepler to see why ..
ok, I think the HAL manual should be seperate from the Integrators manual
that would help shorten up the Integrators manual quite a bit
the integrators manual only contains the relevant parts
and I think it should stay like that
yes the parts relevent to EMC should be in the integrators manual
[13:49:54] <alex_joni> http://cvs.linuxcnc.org/lxr/source/debian/rules.in#073
(I'm outta here.. bbl)
* BigJohnT kicks CIA-42
in trunk do I need to add anything to this? "TLO_IS_ALONG_W = 1 Moves the tool length offset from Z to W."
before I commit it...
last I knew, the hal manual was repeated in its entirety in the integrator manual. so there was no point in having both
the mpurpose of the hal manual is for the nearly-mythical person who wants hal without emc
if that's changed, then remove the line that removes the pdf, and add the right line to emc2.files.in for it
wow - I need to make a minimum of 13 of these h-bridges just for our own tinkering.
(when the bugs are worked out)
EMC: 03bigjohnt 07TRUNK * 10emc2/docs/src/ladder/images/ (Config-com.png Config-io.png): add modbus config images
EMC: 03bigjohnt 07TRUNK * 10emc2/docs/src/ladder/classic_ladder.lyx: add info on modbus
skunkworks: is that enough to justify having the boards made?
heh - I don't know yet. I would actually have to get some quotes. :)
If I had a smaller faster machine - I would not mind milling them if they worked.
more projects :) - keeps me out of trouble.
that is 3 axis mill, puma robot, 2 lathes. Not including some other projects.
cradek: your eagle script with tool length probing makes circuit board making easy.
I should unfiveaxisify max and put the new engraving spindle on it...
with probing I wouldn't need the tool holders that go with the old spindle anymore.
yes - I just touchoff the first tool - the rest work great.
I thought you can just pawn off your board work on jepler :)
I know he'd be happy to do boards for me, but I don't know if he's quite happy with his results yet.
currently I need to make a run of cat collar tags. One of the twerps keeps losing his.
there's an engraving machine at the pet store that makes them, but we're tired of putting money in it.
We have stopped making our cats wear them... (against my better judgment). One came back with his leg thru it also (stretchy ones)
we use the breakaway kind in case they get caught. I don't know if he's getting caught on a lot of stuff, or pulls them off.
now though - the grandparents (what we call our neighbors) pretty much have adopted our 2 toms. so they spend a bunch of time over there also. (less outside then they used to)
(they have it pretty good) :)
you need some sort of tracking chip on the collars
yeah, I would love to see where they go anyway.
we always thought it would be fun to have a howie cam :)
jepler: I had a HAL only project a couple years ago
it used a GUI + HAL components
same here, minus the GUI :)
though I did use halscope and halmeter a lot
SWPadnos: hello fellow nearly-mythical person
skunkworks: inside joke :P
16:36 < jepler> the mpurpose of the hal manual is for the nearly-mythical
person who wants hal without emc