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[00:04:55] <CIA-40> EMC: 03jepler 07v2_2_branch * 10emc2/debian/changelog: fix rotary axis touch off bug spotted by Ian W.
[00:05:00] <CIA-40> EMC: 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/usr_intf/axis/scripts/axis.py: from branch: rotary axis touch off / metric machines
[00:05:03] <CIA-40> EMC: 03jepler 07v2_2_branch * 10emc2/src/emc/usr_intf/axis/scripts/axis.py: fix rotary axis touch off bug spotted by Ian W.
[00:38:20] <jmkasunich> cradek or jepler: how far are you guys from Surplus Center?
[00:42:09] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich drools at
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2008101617030600&item=10-2351&catname=
[00:44:26] <cradek> jmkasunich: a couple miles
[00:44:38] <jmkasunich> click on that link ^^^
[00:44:46] <jmkasunich> then click on "more photos"
[00:45:05] <cradek> cool - set up for us digital kit encoder?
[00:45:12] <jmkasunich> that is the question
[00:45:18] <jmkasunich> http://www.usdigital.com/products/encoders/incremental/modules/heds/
[00:45:32] <jmkasunich> does surplus center have the stuff where you can see it?
[00:45:52] <cradek> sure looks like it's possible
[00:46:09] <jmkasunich> I'm very interested in finding out
[00:46:21] <cradek> well not really, but they will go dig stuff out for you. they do have a showroom but it has stuff like new diesel engines and wheels in it
[00:46:39] <jmkasunich> the guy who is thinking about the HBM retro would like to build a multi-axis servo "demo unit"
[00:46:43] <cradek> are those big enough for anything?
[00:46:48] <cradek> ah, just a demo
[00:46:53] <jmkasunich> peak power is 1/2HP
[00:47:23] <jmkasunich> 5/8" shaft isn't a puny motor
[00:47:24] <cradek> I have a multi-axis servo "demo unit" in the shop - he can come see if he wants :-)
[00:47:59] <jmkasunich> he can buy a lot of those motors and encoders for the price of a ticket to lincoln
[00:48:14] <jmkasunich> if they actually fit the encoders, I'm tempted to get a few myself
[00:48:15] <cradek> still, the offer is open
[00:48:23] <jmkasunich> appreciated
[00:48:23] <cradek> could they run your shoptask?
[00:48:27] <jmkasunich> might
[00:48:41] <jmkasunich> I'm playing with units, trying to convert watts at rpm to oz-in
[00:49:00] <cradek> max current 12A
[00:49:08] <cradek> that's a lot of A
[00:49:30] <jmkasunich> Mesa's 7i40 is two 40V 10A H bridges with current limit for $149
[00:50:03] <cradek> sounds like an adequate fit, but a little more current would be nice
[00:50:11] <jmkasunich> so basically, a rather strong servo axis is $75 (1/2 7i40) + $40 (motor) + $30 (encoder)
[00:50:52] <jmkasunich> how can you tell units to give you torque
[00:50:54] <cradek> sounds nice...
[00:51:11] <jmkasunich> I tried 456 watts / 1150 RPM -> oz * in, it complains
[00:51:13] <cradek> make the destination unit whatever you want
[00:51:16] <jmkasunich> tried other things too
[00:51:48] <cradek> You have: 456 watt/1150 rpm
[00:51:48] <cradek> You want: oz inch gravity
[00:51:58] <cradek> * 536.21411
[00:52:11] <jmkasunich> nice
[00:52:19] <cradek> = 3.8 Nm
[00:52:23] <jmkasunich> my steppers are 900 oz-in, but that is at zero speed
[00:52:53] <cradek> wow, they could direct drive then
[00:53:19] <jmkasunich> I'm not so much thinking about the shoptask (its motor mounts are designed for nema 34), but my someday gantry mill
[00:53:25] <jmkasunich> would be nice to have that servo
[00:54:01] <jmkasunich> altho, servo on the shoptask would be quite nice
[00:54:47] <cradek> is nema 34 big enough that you could make a simple adapter plate?
[00:54:57] <jmkasunich> nema 34 is 3.4"
[00:55:01] <cradek> to add "wings"
[00:55:04] <cradek> oh, so no way
[00:55:20] <jmkasunich> not totally impossible
[00:55:35] <cradek> difficult though
[00:55:42] <jmkasunich> yeah
[00:56:52] <jmkasunich> do you think you could check the encoder mount? heck, even buy one (I'd pay you back)
[00:57:08] <cradek> I don't understand the US Digital drawing of the encoder
[00:57:18] <cradek> two holes disappear and others appear when you flip it over
[00:57:18] <jmkasunich> I'd just buy one myself, but then I get to wait for it to arrive, measure, and finally order more
[00:58:01] <cradek> sure I could go look at them.
[00:58:31] <jmkasunich> not sure what drawing you are referring to
[00:58:49] <jmkasunich> I see a worthless one, no hole dims
[00:58:54] <cradek> in the stupid flash thing, click 'mechanical drawings'
[00:59:12] <cradek> then under 'mechanical drawings' click, uh 'mechanical drawing'
[00:59:21] <jmkasunich> oh
[00:59:36] <jmkasunich> I didn't see the 2nd level of clicking
[00:59:39] <jmkasunich> stupid website
[00:59:45] <cradek> yeah, pretty bad
[01:00:16] <jmkasunich> the screen I did see (module and disk mech data) makes it clear that the ipper two holes can't be for screws
[01:00:21] <jmkasunich> since they would go thru the wheel
[01:00:37] <jmkasunich> I bet they are for locating pins or something
[01:01:48] <cradek> ok so I guess the outside two holes on the left drawing are the real ones
[01:01:54] <jmkasunich> yeah
[01:02:25] <cradek> the diameter would have to work out, too
[01:02:36] <jmkasunich> damn javascript
[01:02:57] <jmkasunich> I could swear I was able to see the motor backside photo earlier, now that tab isn't working
[01:03:15] <jmkasunich> javascript:SpecWin('MorePhotos.asp?ITEM=10-2351')
[01:03:18] <jmkasunich> why not a link
[01:03:23] <cradek> http://www.surpluscenter.com/adphotos/P10-2351X1.jpg
[01:03:36] <jmkasunich> thanks
[01:03:54] <jmkasunich> given that the motor is 4" diameter, that must be for the 2" diameter encoder wheels
[01:03:59] <cradek> it seems possible that it would use ... yeah
[01:04:46] <jmkasunich> looks very encouraging
[01:04:54] <jmkasunich> the encoder screw spacing is 0.825
[01:05:22] <jmkasunich> the spacing of the two inner holes in the rear of the motor appears to be 0.825
[01:05:35] <jmkasunich> I was gonna scale from the pic, but I didn't have to
[01:05:59] <jmkasunich> by odd coincidence, the distance across the motor, parallel to the screw lines, on my screen is 4.01"
[01:06:08] <cradek> heh
[01:06:32] <jmkasunich> the other pair of holes appears to be spaced at 1.125
[01:07:00] <cradek> diameter does look like 2" then
[01:07:50] <jmkasunich> distance from center of shaft to the closer spaced pair of holes is about 1.08
[01:08:12] <cradek> nice.
[01:08:12] <jmkasunich> thats close enough to the 1.107 on the encoder drawing
[01:08:23] <jmkasunich> so, I guess there's no need to check
[01:09:22] <jmkasunich> duh, I didn't realize the disks are sold separately
[01:09:28] <jmkasunich> still not too expensive
[01:10:00] <jmkasunich> $20 for a 2500 CPR disk with index
[01:10:18] <jmkasunich> so, motor + module + disk is $90
[01:10:25] <jmkasunich> that's pretty nice IMO
[01:11:48] <jmkasunich> with x4 counting, 2:1 reduction, and a 5tpi ballscrew, you'd get 100K counts per inch
[01:24:15] <cradek> so do you want me to do anything at SC?
[01:25:28] <cradek> jmkasunich: also, these are super nice:
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2008101617030600&item=11-3201&catname=electric
[01:25:46] <cradek> they are not twist-to-unlock
[01:26:10] <cradek> they have a red light in the button (110v)
[01:26:12] <jmkasunich> cradek: not unless you feel a burning desire to go there - I'm about 99.9% sure the encoders will fit
[01:26:21] <jmkasunich> does SC have a return policy?
[01:26:51] <cradek> If you receive a product from us and are not satisfied or the item is not suitable for your application, you can return it within 30 Days, as long as the item has not been installed or modified and it is in the original manufacturers condition.
[01:27:03] <cradek> "Information" link at the top right
[01:27:15] <jmkasunich> I'm writing an email now, recommending that the guy get those motors - only question in my mind is one axis (wth the other three stepper) or go all the way with 4
[01:27:18] <jmkasunich> duh
[01:27:24] <jmkasunich> thanks, I was being lazy
[01:27:38] <cradek> I don't recall ever returning something
[01:28:00] <jmkasunich> I really think I'm gonna get some for myself too, since they may not be there forever - there is actually more money in the encoders, but I can buy them when needed
[01:28:20] <cradek> they have been there for quite a while. I've considered them a few times.
[01:28:27] <cradek> I just have no application for them
[01:29:04] <jmkasunich> does SC do quantity discounts? I don't see anything on the site, but I wonder what would happen if we wanted a total of 8-10 motors?
[01:29:42] <cradek> they are a small local place. you might get a nice discount if you make an offer.
[01:30:23] <cradek> well not 'small' geographically, small personnel-wise
[02:09:24] <SWPadnos> http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2008101617030600&item=2-1224&catname=
[02:09:31] <SWPadnos> I wonder if that would be good for a clood coolant pump
[02:09:36] <SWPadnos> or flood
[02:09:57] <jmkasunich> 2psi? that means 4 feet lift maximum
[02:10:32] <SWPadnos> oh hmm. I didn't notice that
[02:11:10] <SWPadnos> then again, that's enough for a lot of machines
[02:16:53] <cradek> I think that would (barely) be enough for mine
[02:17:05] <jmkasunich> SWPadnos: ISTR you bought some toroid power transformers a while back?
[02:17:15] <SWPadnos> one, off ebay
[02:17:20] <jmkasunich> oh, ok
[02:17:34] <SWPadnos> but the company I found that actually has good stuff at reasonable prices is Antek Inc
[02:17:41] <jmkasunich> I'm trying to work out a estimated cost for a 36V 20A or so power supply
[02:19:11] <SWPadnos> $45 for the transformer (new)
[02:19:17] <SWPadnos> 400W, 25 or 28V
[02:19:24] <SWPadnos> errr - wait
[02:19:32] <jmkasunich> 36V x 20A = 720 VA
[02:19:38] <SWPadnos> right - got that :)
[02:19:45] <jmkasunich> I was looking at 1KVA xfmrs, didn't get to the price page yet
[02:19:59] <SWPadnos> $100
[02:20:15] <jmkasunich> yep
[02:21:02] <SWPadnos> or $150 for the whole supply
[02:21:34] <SWPadnos> they sell on eBay, you may find something there as well
[02:21:44] <SWPadnos> though they're usually at least as much as buying direct
[02:21:58] <jmkasunich> I don't see pricing for the power supplies?
[02:22:11] <SWPadnos> they're cleverly labeled "transformers" on the price list
[02:22:17] <SWPadnos> the link is price2.htm or something
[02:22:18] <jmkasunich> oh, its the second transformer link
[02:22:23] <SWPadnos> yep
[02:22:24] <jmkasunich> yeah, figured it out
[02:23:16] <jmkasunich> you know, if you aren't a super cheapskate, you can put together quite a nice servo system with very little work
[02:23:23] <SWPadnos> heh
[02:23:52] <jmkasunich> 4 axes of those motors (400 oz-in or better at 1150 RPM) would cost under $1000
[02:23:53] <SWPadnos> drives are the main killer, for anything a Mesa can't handle (or a Gecko, but that's different)
[02:24:08] <jmkasunich> 5i20, 4i40 driver boards, motors, encoders, and power supply
[02:25:32] <jmkasunich> I'm proposing a single 4i30 board (quad H-bridge, 3A) and the total cost is under $800
[02:26:05] <jmkasunich> for comparison, Xylotex offers a 300ish oz-in stepper system for $460
[02:27:07] <SWPadnos> the motors are a bit of a lucky find, but otherwise, yeah, it's not that expensive
[02:39:39] <jmkasunich> goodnight
[04:02:30] <fenn> skullworks_pgab used some of those ametek servos for something
[12:56:05] <skunkworks_> what is cro? computer 'something' oscilliscope?
[12:57:52] <skunkworks_> I assuming that is what this person is asking.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUmFKOVepYY
[12:59:28] <skunkworks_> hmm - I find it as cathode ray oscilloscope
[12:59:36] <SWPadnos> yeah, could be
[13:00:13] <SWPadnos> but it's an LCDO :)
[13:00:24] <skunkworks_> That is what I was thinking:)
[13:54:07] <micges> what's mean THC ?
[13:54:16] <skunkworks_> torch hight controller
[13:54:29] <micges> plasma specific ?
[13:55:08] <micges> thanks, newermind
[13:56:19] <SWPadnos> tetra hydro cannabanol
[13:56:45] <SWPadnos> oops, cannabinol
[16:31:08] <CIA-40> EMC: 03cradek 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/usr_intf/axis/extensions/emcmodule.cc: first step in getting smart tool table handling into the guis: resurrect and update the NML message that sets an entry in the tool table and then rewrites it
[16:31:10] <CIA-40> EMC: 03cradek 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/usr_intf/ (shcom.cc xemc.cc): first step in getting smart tool table handling into the guis: resurrect and update the NML message that sets an entry in the tool table and then rewrites it
[16:31:13] <CIA-40> EMC: 03cradek 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/task/ (emctaskmain.cc iotaskintf.cc): first step in getting smart tool table handling into the guis: resurrect and update the NML message that sets an entry in the tool table and then rewrites it
[16:31:16] <CIA-40> EMC: 03cradek 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/nml_intf/ (canon.hh emc.cc emc.hh emc_nml.hh): first step in getting smart tool table handling into the guis: resurrect and update the NML message that sets an entry in the tool table and then rewrites it
[16:31:20] <CIA-40> EMC: 03cradek 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/iotask/ioControl.cc: first step in getting smart tool table handling into the guis: resurrect and update the NML message that sets an entry in the tool table and then rewrites it
[16:58:09] <SWPadnos> cool - I have a 10% eBay coupon
[16:58:12] <SWPadnos> buahahahaha
[16:58:16] <SWPadnos> s/b/m/
[16:58:40] <SWPadnos> damn. I hate it when my evil laugh sounds like I have a cold
[17:07:58] <CIA-40> EMC: 03cradek 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/sai/saicanon.cc: new canon calls for setting a tool table entry
[17:07:59] <CIA-40> EMC: 03cradek 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/task/emccanon.cc: new canon calls for setting a tool table entry
[17:08:01] <CIA-40> EMC: 03cradek 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/rs274ngc/gcodemodule.cc: new canon calls for setting a tool table entry
[17:08:04] <CIA-40> EMC: 03cradek 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/nml_intf/canon.hh: new canon calls for setting a tool table entry
[17:19:19] <skunkworks_> * skunkworks_ thinks cradek is busy
[17:19:24] <skunkworks_> bbl
[17:35:04] <alex_joni> bbl.. time to relax for a while :)
[17:42:07] <varsano> hi all
[17:45:09] <SWPadnos> hi issy
[20:14:59] <CIA-40> EMC: 03cradek 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/rs274ngc/ (interp_check.cc interp_convert.cc rs274ngc.hh): new G-code, like Fanuc, for setting a tool table entry: G10 L1 P[toolno] R[radius] X[xoffset] Z[zoffset] Q[orientation]
[20:15:05] <CIA-40> EMC: 03cradek 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/task/emccanon.cc: new G-code, like Fanuc, for setting a tool table entry: G10 L1 P[toolno] R[radius] X[xoffset] Z[zoffset] Q[orientation]
[20:16:11] <SWPadnos> cool
[20:16:36] <cradek> I don't know how to handle setting the angles on lathe tools
[20:16:52] <cradek> maybe it doesn't matter, so far it's just for presentation.
[20:18:20] <cradek> also I didn't tackle G91G10
[20:19:04] <SWPadnos> still looks like plenty to me
[20:20:28] <cradek> the gui could always set the angles, if the gui writer comes up with a way to do it
[20:20:57] <cradek> the gui could let you preview how it will look as you change the numbers, then at OK it could write the entry
[20:20:59] <SWPadnos> hmmm. not many float parameters left to use there either
[20:21:28] <cradek> no and the all have the wrong feel - ABCUVWIJK? nah, they all kind of mean something
[20:21:29] <SWPadnos> though ABC could be used I guess (not really an offset, but at least they're angles)
[20:21:36] <SWPadnos> right
[20:21:52] <cradek> oh, wonder if I should let you use W instead of Z if TLO_IS_ALONG_W
[20:23:00] <cradek> well, that's minor compared to the units bugs I've surely written
[20:24:41] <cradek> darn, G43 is executed before G10, so you can't do G10 L1 P[tool] Z[new len] G43
[20:33:33] <cradek> oh hey, look:
[20:33:34] <cradek> Being in incremental distance mode has no effect on the action of G10
[20:33:34] <cradek> in this implementation. The manual is not explicit about what is
[20:33:34] <cradek> intended.
[20:33:48] <cradek> funny
[20:34:00] <cradek> they left it out of the manual on purpose?
[20:40:50] <SWPadnos> where is that quote from?
[20:40:55] <cradek> the source
[20:41:04] <SWPadnos> oh, well that explains it then :)
[20:48:22] <CIA-40> EMC: 03cradek 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/rs274ngc/interp_convert.cc: don't change half the tool table entry and then error, skipping the rest
[20:51:35] <CIA-40> EMC: 03cradek 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/rs274ngc/interp_convert.cc: oops, allow creation of new tools
[20:52:02] <cradek> I think I write one error for every four lines of code
[20:56:25] <SWPadnos> that would be slightly above the national average
[20:56:29] <SWPadnos> but not by much
[20:56:51] <cradek> my mom always said I was above average
[20:57:03] <SWPadnos> how nice
[21:01:20] <SWPadnos> hmmm. so it would now be nice to have a GUI that could edit tool tables, and another one that could edit parameters (safely)
[21:01:26] <SWPadnos> and/or view them
[21:01:44] <cradek> go SWPadnos go!
[21:01:49] <SWPadnos> oh wait, we don't any generic parameter access NML yet, do we?
[21:01:54] <SWPadnos> ^have
[21:02:35] <cradek> no, every so often, alex talks about working on that
[21:02:50] <SWPadnos> hmmm, yeah. he should :)
[21:03:16] <cradek> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Alex_Joni
[21:03:20] <cradek> middle of the list
[21:03:29] <SWPadnos> yep, I remember discussing it
[21:05:15] <cradek> it's complex
[21:07:38] <SWPadnos> it seems like it shouldn't be, but I'm sure I don't understand (or am not thinking about) something
[21:07:47] <cradek> readahead
[21:08:10] <SWPadnos> that introduces all sorts of problems all over the place, actually
[21:08:13] <cradek> yes
[21:08:27] <cradek> but if you want to do it, you ought to be able to show the vars changing as a program runs
[21:08:28] <SWPadnos> I wonder how necessary it is to go more than 1 line ahead
[21:08:31] <cradek> otherwise it's just stupid
[21:08:54] <cradek> oh I misread what you said
[21:09:09] <SWPadnos> oh - yeah, I meant that readahead causes lots of issues
[21:09:11] <cradek> you'd get frequent starvation if you only went ahead one line.
[21:09:32] <cradek> and once you're up to 3, you have all the problems anyway, so you might as well go forever
[21:09:36] <SWPadnos> well, 1 line or 1 motion
[21:10:04] <SWPadnos> ie, if you're aggregating lots of little moves based on G64P-, then I'd go until I find a move that doesn't "fit"
[21:10:32] <SWPadnos> but in any case, you have the problem with 1 line of readahead anyway
[21:11:01] <cradek> I think BOSS does one line readahead
[21:11:15] <cradek> and I think it takes about .1 seconds to read a line
[21:11:40] <SWPadnos> heh
[21:11:56] <SWPadnos> so you get very slow motion if you program as poorly as some CAM programs
[21:12:30] <cradek> well it can barely blend. There's a special code for "try to blend this move into the next one"
[21:12:50] <cradek> it's up to you to make sure they are fairly tangent/colinear
[21:13:02] <cradek> and they have to be long/slow enough for it to read the next line in time
[21:13:36] <cradek> with only 100 feet of RAM, you can't run much poor CAM output on it.
[21:23:12] <SWPadnos> I suspect that processors are 3000 times as fast as they were back then
[21:23:20] <SWPadnos> maybe more
[21:23:51] <SWPadnos> ooooh - dinner time
[21:24:48] <cradek> but it's not also running a web browser and a hundred other irrelevant things
[23:55:32] <CIA-40> EMC: 03bigjohnt 07TRUNK * 10emc2/docs/src/common/ (Linux_FAQ.lyx machining_center.lyx): minor edits
