EMC: 03cmorley 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/hal/classicladder/drawing.c: Back to the thin blue line
EMC: 03cmorley 07v2_2_branch * 10emc2/src/hal/classicladder/drawing.c: Improve edit mode grid colour
you always show up late
i come on after the kids go to bed ;-)
EMC: 03bigjohnt 07v2_2_branch * 10emc2/docs/src/gui/axis.lyx: add a bit about the menu and a few spello's
EMC: 03bigjohnt 07TRUNK * 10emc2/docs/src/gui/axis.lyx: add a bit about the menu and a few spello's
fascinating. with today's emc2 version (2.2.6-1) I get both tkemc and axis when I start demo-step-cl
on my athalon 64 box
Ah. The first time I started it it failed. But it must have left the AXIS gui around and when I restarted it connected them both.
The failure was a config from a different version.
Let me see if I can reproduce the problem.
When I just stopped and restarted it it worked as expected.
But bot GUI's were connected and running.
There it is. Back with both displays.
strange. how did you stop the first instance?
(presumably, that's the one leaving AXIS around for the second instance)
Now I'll have to figure out what is going wrong with shutdown and restart when "emc is running, restart it?"
does the first config run two GUIs?
The odd thing is that it must be keeping and using the first NML.
It is a custom thing I made using stepconf.
the NML stuff probably hangs around until everything using it has gone away, which never happens
Okay. And the second finds NML running and connects to it.
at least, that seems like a plausible reason ;)
gotta run. good luck with it
Catch you later.
The stepconf config I was using had been modified outside of stepconf so I'll have to dig.
wow - that email is the one I was talking about a week ago. (sent to the list by mistake)
I think there is dirt in the tubes
I guess :)
so how come no servo amp makers have prices listed?
because there are not enough of them.
(servo amp makers)
even for plain ole brush motors?
people like Advanced Motion Control and Servo Dynamics don't list prices - do they sell thru distributers or what?
I am sure that is part of it. When I was searching for a certain part number made by amc - I know I found a few re-sellers.
jmkasunich: what is the project?
maybe nothing, but I've been contacted by someone with a 6" horizontal boring mill
it's local to me
Neat. trying to get some prices togather?
well, I won't have any concrete info till next week when I've seen the machine
but I've been told that it is brush-DC motors
and I'm just trying to find the ballpark price if we choose to replace the ancient GE HI-AK drives
something like an AMC 50A20I is almost certainly big enough, maybe too big)
it would be good to know if that is a $400 item or a $2000 item
[17:46:05] <skunkworks> http://www.electromate.com/products/series.php?&series_id=100309
I was expecting prices in that neighborhood, but wanted something more concrete than my best guess
oh, those are PWM input
similar to what you are making
I guessed - I think they sell both
analog input is a little more: http://www.electromate.com/products/series.php?&series_id=100313
heh, that seller is in canada
seems bass-ackwards to buy a US made product from Canada for delivery into the US
if nothing else that link is a good starting point - if/when it is time to buy then contact AMC directly
[17:59:32] <skunkworks> http://www.servosystems.com/amc_pwm.htm
no pricing but US
yeah, I found them already
I think I'm set for now - there really isn't much more I can do till I see the machine and meet all the people involved
make sure to look at the brushes.
That might be a bit of money also
yeah, but that will be the case no matter what they do
I'm sure brushes are cheaper than replacing the motors with AC
the machine works now, with an ancient AB control
but it apparently is getting to be a wee bit unreliable :-)
the way I see it there are three options
1) find a point where you can get at the +/-10V and encoder signals, keep the drives, and design a "quick swap" emc thing
so you minimize downtime and can swap back if the retrofit has to work around production
2) replace the drives (which are as ancient as the control and probably as unreliable)
3) replace drives and motors with brushless or AC
the last one would be extremely expensive
if the motors are sound, that would be stupid IMO
Hi jmkasunich. Sorry was away for a bit.
Autumn leaves are so awesome this year. I have a difficult time being indoors.
rayh: I was gonna ask about the servodrives on the mazak and where you got them
skunkworks pointed me to some answers, although I think the mazak used servo-dynamics, not AMC
Ah. gone again. The drives are servo dynamics and Dave E got them for me.
The specific servo dynamics drives we used were nearing the end of their production run.
The replacement includes an AC power supply but costs a couple hundred more.
you know anything about GE Hi-AK drives?
other than "they're old" ;-)
from what I've found, they are analog brush DC, tach feedback to the amps, and probably resolver feedback to the controls
I've worked on a few of those.
Sounds about right.
They did make an AC spindle drive under the HI-AK name also.
if you had a machine with them, would you try to keep them running (good old robust stuff), or replace them (unobtainium parts)
They were tach feedback
Well if they happen to be the same as the drives Chris has in his Hardinge, I've got a couple left.
this is a much bigger machine
They are at the age when all the electrolytic caps ought to be replaced.
Otherwise tuning is a weekly thing.
[21:18:50] <jmkasunich> http://jmkasunich.com/pics/HBM-P1010003.JPG
next weekend I should be able to look inside that box
I threw out some kollmorgen drives last year. Newer than the Hi-AC but they would drift so bad.
"Transistorized Servo Drive"
the machine: http://jmkasunich.com/pics/HBM-P1010004.JPG
I don't think that will fit in your basement!
its not mine
a local shop is considering EMC for a retrofit
During the time when this machine was made, GE had a really nasty habit of stamping their part number over the real numbers.
buy it from us at a 200% markup
It would take more time if you replace the Hi-AC for tuning but it would make for a much more dependable machine when done.
that was my thought too
a lot depends on how much downtime they can spare
in theory, if the retrofit is done at the +/-10V level, it can be done as a plug-in
Maybe it's a mini fest time again.
This is just 3 axis horizontal?
so if the EMC retro isn't complete and a job comes in, you plug the old control back in
I think its 4 - quill and table move parallel to each other
they also have a rotary table, but from what he told me, its more of an indexing table, not a rotary axis
unlock, index (pneumatic), lock, cut
Many of these were. They sat down on a curvit(sp) coupline
Sorta like teeth meshing like 1 degree.
I'll take a look at that while I'm there too
Many of these machines used a g45 to spin the indexer.
sure will be hard to put a display in that pendant ;-)
cut an LCD into strips and mount them end-to-end
I bet its not even that wide
an LCD attached to the pendant?
maybe 2 to balance it :)
or use the pendant only for "pendanty" things - jogwheel, FO, and some buttons
I've got a couple of wide screen automotive displays here. Been meaning to get one running for a machine I'm building.
here is the main control screen: http://jmkasunich.com/pics/HBM-P1010002.JPG
other than the keyboard, there are more buttons on the pendant than on the main control
what are those flip switches at the bottom?
Wow. That looks a lot like a 1050. I've got at least three matching displays out in the garage.
alex_joni: so far all I have is these three pics
I will see the machine and talk to the owners a week from today
rayh: the extra monitor up there might mean they need one :)
he says the control is a 7320
Give 'em a real good deal.
is a 1050 a control, or just a user interface panel?
7320 sounds like AB.
it is AB
Mine were 7360.
Hell to work on. But wow they had a nice bitwise computer interface.
the diskette drive on the top looks a lot newer
You could set analog feed values right down to a couple millivolts
Got to be.
Nothing like it on the ones I had or serviced.
paper tape only, or serial drip-feed?
They were paper tape fed but had enough memory to store several modest programs.
I imagine this machine doesn't do 10,000 line contouring programs ;-)
Nope. It might with drip from a cassette.
that box on top is labeled "CNC Minifile"
Finding out the machine's duty cycle and available back is one of the first things to do.
Then you can begin to plan a fit.
yeah - there is a world of difference between "you get one week" and "it will be down for a couple months"
I can't quite read the legends on the pendant but most of them look like they are momentary.
a few toggles, some lights? and a bunch of buttons
We could develop a "crew" from guys on the lists and break it up into sections. Like pendant, ladder, machine IO, and such.
actually, from what I've been told so far, the shop owners are very hands-on, and would be doing the majority of the work themselves
Sure. They just need a plan.
they maintiain their machines now, to the extent of dragging out an oscilliscope when needed
its a family owned shop that has been around since the 1930s
That is a good kind of shop to work with.
I don't exactly know how to handle the z axis kinematics.
I think one would be Z and one would be W
But it would be a lot like a knee mill with both quill and knee.
dunno which would be which, that is one thing I want to ask about - how do they program it now
Till F in Germany made a machine with two motors on the same Cartesian axis
So I know it can be done.
I suspect they'd want independent control of quill and table, with two different letters in the G-code
There is a tool length advantage to know the distance between.
It would be a bit like the head on the mazak. Something we've not tried as yet.
But the table could just be a manual thing for now.
Or an extra axis under emc control but not coordinated.
I need to talk to cradek about the w tool offset stuff
You're right about asking how they do it now.
I bet EMC could do fully coordinated W
it doesn't do circles yet
I think I'm gonna make a vismach model of an HBM, with a quill
jmkasunich: remember that you can model it in CAD now
alex_joni: this machine doesn't have rotaries, so W is always parallel to Z
and only import the stl in vismach
I need to learn some of that uvw stuff also.
alex_joni: I don't have cad that does STL
yeah, but what if you want to programm a G3 where a W moves
and I can do it faster in vismach anyway
And not get black stuff under your fingernails!
agreed - you can't do a G3 where W moves
but arcs in that plan on this kind of machine are probably very rare
maybe a helix
If the rotary table is an indexer only, you can't do a feedrate move with it anyway.
the rotary isn't even normally mounted on the maching
Ah. I thought it was the table.
no, its removable
the four axes are X, Y, Z, W
Okay. I was imagining some boring machines I've worked on.
they probably put it on when they are doing something that requires holes in the faces of a pentagon, or even just holes in all four faces of a block shaped part
but he said that most times they leave it off, since they do a lot of large parts, and the combined weight of table and part is a bit much
alex_joni: are there any screenshots of vismach + stl?
fenn: I think jepler put some up
you can do g17/g18/g19 arcs while W also moves (g17 would be helical milling, the others would be stupid)
the arc would move Z in an arcy way, and W linearly?
would be useless I'm sure
g17 + w would be useful
yeah, helical or thread milling using quill instead of table
yeah whichever it is
rigid tapping always uses Z, or can it use W?
currently Z only. needs to be expanded to also allow W (or any direction)
Lerman___ is now known as Lerman
you'd want to tap with the highest accel axis, surely the quill
cradek: dunno how far back you read - did you see the pics?
I wouldn't be surprized if it has resolvers - I might want to talk to you about how Jon's resolver-encoder converters are working out
that machine looks either recently scraped, or not-much-used
he said its in use for production
I have had exactly zero trouble with jon's boards
they only take minor fiddling for setup
you have to set the amplitude with some jumpers (just requires dual input scope or some other magic)
dual channel scope is far from magic
but a lack of a dual scope can only be bridged by magic
I'm not sure how to do it without - that's what I meant
oh the machine is actually working? wow.
from the first message I got: "The iron is good and the current control still works but I expect control maintenance issues to only increase over time. In fact, this machine was in production until just a few weeks ago when the operator left for another employer."
oh maybe it's idle because nobody knows how to run it - nice opportunity
I got the impression that if they really need to run it, they can
nice. it will be much easier if it hasn't been sitting.
stuff on it will actually work
unlike the vacuum pump on Stuart's G&L
yes and all the oil seals
and you can study it a bit and look for oddities/quirks
from what he told me, there is far less hydraulic "stuff" on this machine - no hydrostatic bearings for example
I wonder if the counterweight is hydraulic, or just a big old lump of heavy stuff
chain - must be a weight
hydraulics would push up, not pull down
stuart's has a chain, but it is hydraulic
the chain goes up and over, and the cylinder is in the column
you can't put the cylinder underneath unless you want to dig a deep hole
I bet the cylinder travel is only half the head travel, and the chain runs over a moving pulley
otherwise the extended cylinder would be twice as long as the travel
almost 6:30, I should make dinner
thanks for the input guys
good night all