cradek: you around?
when milling a board, how comfortable are you running traces between DIP pins?
how wide do you make those traces?
that explains it
these traces looked to big to fit thru
skunkworks has it set to 16 mil
yeah that's too wide
might be able to squeeze 12 through there
separations are about 9, so that leaves 70 for the pad if my math is right
you should be able to get a 20 mil trace through there, with 10 mil spacing (assuming a 60 mil pad, which I think is standard for 0.1" DIP packages)
SWPadnos: what's the dip hole size then? 30?
I think so - maybe even 38
these pads look to be less than 60 wide
I think they should be 60. I'll look at a package in Altium
I think eagle sets their width according to the hole size
width = hole + 2*restring
I forgot how big thru hole parts are
yeah they're big
I want my 1206's!
I've milled two traces between dip pads but it's a little hairy and it doesn't seem to help eagle's autorouter much
autorouter! what the heck is that?
mostly a parlor trick
you guys both saw the lxr setup right?
dang - I miss having vias
the lxr stuff looks great
vias can still be soldered
oops I never wrote the crontabs to keep it up to date
I wish skunkworks hadn't used a whole 4049 to get two inverters
yeah that's a 19c part wasted
thats a half a square inch wasted
can you mill two 16 mill traces on 25 mill centers? (9 mill spacing)
duh "separations are about 9"
yes with care you can get 9 separations
I guess that means yes
if there's room for 11 or 12 you can be much less careful
12 mill traces on 25 mill centers is probalby better
I like a 25 mill grid
it's what you might get anyway :-)
at work I do 12 mil lines
I just haven't figured out how to change linewidth yet
and I'd want to do it across the board - I hate having a mix of widths
group first then
it looks like 60 mil pads and 35 mil holes are standard for DIP packages
how do I change the default width?
when you are in route, set it with a pulldown thingy that appears
found it, thanks
this user interface takes some getting used to
if that's code language for "it's not very good" I agree
after learning it though, I can be effective with the program
I hope he doesn't want to get this board UL listed ;-)
88 mill spacings are somewhat marginal for 200V
keep it clean
you can change the values selected by the design-rule checker in the "drc" and "class" commands, as well
so the definitive documentation for halcmd is supposed to be the manpage?
it hurts that there are three bad copies of the documentation (in the running halcmd, in the manpage, and in hal/tools.lyx)
yeah, that has been on my list of nagging ugly things
it seems like one of them ought to be the definitive one, and the others autogenerated from that one
is the online help even that usefull?
most unix programs don't have much of that - they expect you to read the manpage
board layout done..
how do I let myself get sucked into doing these things?
well I'm thrilled you know Eagle well enough to layout my boards now :-)
only if your boards are interesting
(like a 20A 200V H bridge)
now I have to figure out how to get the files to skunkworks
when you are milling a board, do you do a flood in eagle to show all the unmilled copper?
hmm, I just realized something
how do you mill really wide spaces?
an end mill
[03:03:35] <cradek> http://timeguy.com/cradek-files/cnc/pcb/stepdriver2.jpg
the usual g-code program generated from eagle with my script leaves a lot of unmilled copper, it doesn't clear out all it can.
cradek: that must have been with 2 or 3 endmill passes?
I don't remember, but probably
it doesn't take many at 1/16 at a time
posting a screencap - stand by
[03:06:30] <jmkasunich> http://home.att.net/~jmkasunich/Pics/hbridge.png
that's not quite right...
ok, lemme do that again
turn off grid
there's also an 'export' command that can do png..
I like having a grid - I changed it to 0.1
dang - the floods turned off
pin1 of ic2 is unrouted
looks like a trivial route though
yeah, it was routed, and I disconnected it when I wanted to move the bypass cap
what are pads 4 and 5 for?
the DC bus cap
large screw-terminal can
turned off the restrict layers, so the floods look better
that looks very nice
skunkworks didn't hook anything to the input side of the optocoupler - I hope I left enough space for a connector or whatnot
the upper blue flood is +bus, and the two red floods are the motor terminals
so they need good clearance from the low level stuff
that should be an ultra-low inducance layout
PAD3 is for the unregulated logic supply voltage?
I wonder what max input volts for the regulator is?
the current shouldn't be to high, probably 50mA or less...
I wonder if a dropping resistor and a zener could be used to get the gate power from the bus
if BUS is 200V? yuck.
I bet 50mA is way too high then
gotta burn something liek 10W
heh, I know
_if_ the current is low enough
a 500K resistor from bus to the top of a 18V zener
a 200V mosfet with the gate connected to the top of the zener, the drain connected to +bus, and the source connected to the +15V rail
how did it get to be 11:30?
routing PCBs will do that
yeah, especially when you are climbing the learning curve
jepler: I indexed the whole source now
the laptop's gonna blow a circuit
if it does the indexing at night, it doesn't matter
if it's too slow to use maybe someone will donate a (small, quiet) machine
it would be easy to move the install to another box
the trick is the small quiet part
if I were doing it I'd buy one of these e-pc boxes
they come as PIII-1000
and under $100?
do they have pci slots?
hard to say
one full size hard disk, no slots, no floppy
so fine for the cvs server, not so good for an EMC machine
(assuming I want better than software step/dir)
fine for a parport machine actually
even though its onboard video they don't have latency issues?
this one I tested seems to be fine
if you're interested I'll test it more
not that interested
yes it looks like lots of them go for < $100 on ebay
I have dozens of things I _should_ be doing
866 .. 1000 MHz
like putting the lathe back to gether
lathe is together and works!
cradek: great, thanks for doing that
jmkasunich: wow. work of art.
jepler: got 5 minutes?
* alex_joni is trying to make vim work with tags
jmkasunich: c1,c2 where just some 500v .1uf I had found.
jepler: nm, figured it out (ctags -R, then instruct vim to use it)
jepler: I know this info is somewhere, but I can't find how to tell vim to use the default .vimrc from emc2/src and to load the tags file by default (emc2/src/tags)
alex_joni: sorry, I was messing with suspend/hibernate and made my machine unusable
jepler: common mistake :)
jepler: do you always open files relatively to emc2/src ?
e.g. vim emc/nml_intf/emc.hh ?
alex_joni: yes, I start in emc2/src
then I might type :tag emc.hh to get to that file
ok, that makes sense
I noticed there's also a :make
if you change to the directory with the file you want, some things don't work as well
which also works only from emc2/src
hmm.. remember the ctags incantation you did?
oh that reminds me there was one thing I wanted to fix about the 'tags' target...
hm I can't get it to do what I want: not believe that EXPORT_SYMBOL(xxx); is a declaration of xxx
what is "it" in that sentence?
"it" is ctags-exuberant
aha, figured it out.
yay, that was really bugging me
hmm - don't the RTAPI_MP_* macros actually declare variables?
nevermind. duh me
SWPadnos: something to play with http://www.nocircles.com/index.php?boyhave=flash
skunkworks: we need to figure out how to get the files to you
btw, the caps don't need to be 500V
0.1uF 50V for the bypasses (you'll note I added more - one for each driver, high and low side, and one on the regulator input)
I also added electrolytic caps for the high side drivers - those should be about 10-22uF at 25-35V
you can just email it. email@example.com
I was wondering because you didn't want to mail the originals to me
so the bootstrap caps don't have to be the supply voltage? I had it wrong in my head then.
nope, they only see the 15V
the bootstrap diodes do see the full voltage
the circuit looks awsome. what do you think of eagle?
(what do you use at work?)
it takes some getting used to
power-pcb (boards) and power-logic (schematic) from Pads
C5 and C6 are the lytics
the rest are 0.1uF 50V ceramics
I couldn't find a decent symbol for them tho, usually they look about like a 1/4 w resistor
thank you. I think I may be able to mill this today - complete with your signature :)
I assumed that IC4 is an optocoupler - you need to add a connector and maybe some resistors for the input of that
I have a heck of a time finding packages I need.
It looks like there will be more than enough room for resisters and pads.
one other thing I thought of after I finished - it would be a good idea to have a lytic on the main +15V line
same as the bootstrap ones - 10-47uF, 25-35V
gonna be a tight squeeze tho
it looks a lot less packed in there then what I was doing.
hmm, if you stand the regulator up instead of laying it down that will make room
yah - they only had a packagee laying down. I wasn't going to. just didn't redraw the package.
cheap and dirty I was just going to change it to a 220 pacage that was standing up.
the email thing - I just didn't want you to have to post yours.
could have exchanged mails in a /msg
(you didn't have to post yours either)
is your IRC nick registered?
actually I think I have your email
you sent me a message when you and cradek where figureing out the >1gb issue
btw, the initials is something I do on most boards that I design
they don't call it PCB "artwork" for nothing - I sign the ones I'm happy with
when my boss makes me make compromises that I don't like, I don't sign it
has the compromises ever bit him in the a$$?
the voltage clearances on this board are probably marginal for 200V
(for example, between the heavy power trace going to one pin of a FET, and the pad of the adjacent FET pin
keep the board clean and it should be ok
but you'll not be getting it UL approved ;-)
they have rather strict creepage and clearance specs
I am not worried. I read that comment from you earlier :)
otoh, I'm used to working with 480V stuff, 700V DC bus... I really don't know what the requirements are for 200V
another possibility to improve the clearance (but I don't know how to do it in eagle) is to turn off the top side pad for a FET pin that connected on the bottom (and close to a top side trace)
then the clearance is trace to pin, instead of trace to pad
I don't think eagle can turn off the pad on one side of the board
ok, so much for that ides
IIRC, power-pcb can do it, but its not simple
I really don't think its neccessary anyway
you might want to delete pad1 and pad2 and just connect the power leads at the cap screws
I see you connected all the inputs to ground of the 4049. Thank you :)
I would not have thought about setting one to +v if that worked the best.
I'm lazy about routing
well, I think I'm gonna go poke some holes in paper - its a beautiful day, maybe one of the last pretty weekend days we'll see this year
back in a few hours
(wish the range wasn't an hour drive each way)
thanks again. -- have fun
Lerneaen_Hydra_ is now known as Lerneaen_Hydra
quiet day today
* jmkasunich is back
did get hit on the side of the neck by an empty .22 casing ejected from a rifle next to me (stung a bit)
jmkasunich: you know you're switching (current)
would it pay off to get a line-interactive sine-wave UPS vs. a dumb one?
I don't know much about UPSs
for instance, I would have to google to find out what "line-interactive" means
line interactive always run on battery + inverter
if there's mains it also recharges the battery
instead of running straight mains power and switching over to inverter on a mains fail
the "dumb" type runs on mains, unless there's a failure, then it switches
seems like line-interactive would be better for very sensitive stuff that can't tolerate a momentary dropout for transfer
the advantage is that it regulates input power too (line interactive)
also better if your line is messy
right - cleans up a bad line
but it's 50 vs. 500$
otoh, if the inverter is running all the time, it will probably wear out sooner
(unless its build a lot better, maybe thats why the $500)
battery life is 3-4 years
so inverter might last a bit more :D
the 500$ is sine-wave output
the other is rectangular switching
rect doesn't thrill me
but I guess it depends on the load
computer loads are diode bridges, which means they only conduct on the peak of the sine anyway
jmkasunich: milling now. 2nd one. the traces and pads where just too small. I make them bigger. (for the resisters/cap pads)
so far so good.
I probably shouldn't have switched from 16 mill to 12 mill traces
I made all the traces .032
I like big :)
and seen as how we didn't have to run any between the ic pads - I don't see a reason to have them that small. For a diyer
and in we I mean you :)
top is milled - bottom is milling