SWPadnos: i dont think you can
I think it does work, but I'm not sure if the result is in radians/sec^2 or revolutions/sec^2
the units are correct - 1/s^2
i think you need a 1/2 in there somewhere
jepler: sure does
hmmm. I'm looking for V, not position, so the 1/2 At^2 doesn't apply
jepler: I have some originals here if you want one
wah! a t1 is a nice connection.
you can probably answer my question (posed just minutes before you connected)
a t1 is dog slow
rayh@smithy - cool ;)
yeah - 75% of my DSL, and only 1/4 the speed of reasonable cable
what are you doing playing at smithy?
Got a couple days of meetings then on to fest.
cradek: I think I may go to best buy to buy some new CDs. after all, the next step involves burning more of them.
SWPadnos: ok i think you're right
jepler: that's a good point
I have some blanks but will also get a spool of 100 or so.
cradek: thanks for the offer though
ok. google didn't really turn up much for me
I have envelopes for them.
what was the question
can you get motor acceleration (unloaded) by dividing torque by inertia?
and if so, are the units rads/sec or revs/sec
oops - per sec^2
rayh: I see that you added a list of packages to one of the wiki pages (Installing EMC2). How did you find that list of packages?
I unpacked the emc2 deb and unpacked the conf package there then read the file.
seems like there ought to be some software that does that.
since I think there will be plenty of room on the CD, I want to add the packages needed for emc2 development too.
that's a great idea
I meant to add the stuff for both axis and a build but ran out of time.
very good plan.
and all our new pdfs?
You bet, as long as there is room.
rayh: cdroms are big
should be plenty.
hmm I wonder if you can put non-apt stuff on a cdrom that you intend to use with apt-cdrom
cradek: surely you can
OK, off I go to best bu
should be able to - boot discs have more stuff than a repository
I believe so as long as they are not in the debs directory.
another non-.deb idea I had was to include anonymous CVS checkouts, but maybe that's silly
is tar xzvf; cvs update any better than cvs co? will it be much faster for any length of time?
it may lower the bar a bit too far ...
* fenn snickers
it's definitely faster for those on dialup though
SWPadnos: I want the bar as low as possible
I doubt that's worth the added complexity
Yes an anon would be much faster.
not necessarily for dev purposes
I'm off to best buy. do any of you need anything? a new PC, maybe?
Sure get me a couple of screamers.
a laptop for me
if they had Opterons, I'd bite ;)
I suppose a nice plasma screen would do though. I can pick it up at Fest
SWPadnos, I don't know the answer to your question.
OK, I'll take a shopping list
i could use some cannon fodder
I had noticed the units of torque (in-lb) and inertia (in-lb-sec^2), and figured I'd get 1/s^2 by dividing ...
do they make motherboards with 2 parports?
fenn: I learned in physics class that if the units work out, it's probably right
there are embedded boards with 2 parports, but not at Best Buy
that's what I learned as well
rayh: think i could ship my digikey/jameco order to roland's place? i think i'm running out of time
Certainly, just ask jameco to mark attention your name and EMC on it
and roland will put it in our area.
Glad to hear that you are going to be there again.
looks like it's gonna be raining all week, i hope i get a chance to cast all my parts
yuck. I hope your forcasting is good for s&%t.
i meant this week
Oh. Right. It's raining here now.
we got a little today
Ann Arbor, MI for those that don't know smithy.
I hear that's a nice place, I've been close but never visited
It's okay if you like college towns.
yeah, I live in one...
You're lincoln right.
great pizza parlor there years ago.
forgot the name.
not valentino's I hope
wife's sister lived there in the late sixties.
that's our "famous" local joint but I think it's not too great
valentino sounds right. must have gone down hill.
I think Lincoln is a nice place.
noaa thinks it's going to rain all next week too
I liked it.
especially western illinois
glad i got that swap meet table so i can sleep on it :P
Roland has two tents lined up this year. Same size each
You'll be sleeping with Boris if he knows where you are.
Boris is the very loud black cat.
Gotta run. see you guys in a few days.
cradek: while doing this fresh Ubuntu install, I noticed while following your ubuntu instructions that the browser right-click menu item is "Save link as..." and it saved in Home, not Desktop, by default.
pretty sure the instructions say to click it, not right-click it
somehow it knows to prompt when you left click
oh, you're right. it does. I read "right click" somehow.
I think I automatically right-click things that I want to download, lest the browser try treating it as text
did you get working cds?
I got a working install CD
do you think your media was just bad? old?
that's my theory. I bought those media a couple years ago.
I don't know if those have a shelf life, they might. glad it's not your laptop.
well there's all the claims that a written CD will not last. if that's true, it's easy to imagine an unwritten CD might have the same problem.
man there are a lot of packages to download
bloat bloat bloat
yeah there are a ton of updates by now, it's been a year
I skipped doing the updates
oh you mean there are a lot for emc?
I suppose there's no reason I can't put them on this disk as long as there's room
can you add sshd and nano?
fenn: those aren't on the ubuntu CD?
that's true - it would be really nice to have a fully updated system
not in the default install at least
when you apt-cdrom it, I bet they will just show up as available updates
cradek: for emc, not so much. but next I did kernel-source, and that was nearly 100 megs. Now i'm doing build-dep and that's another 40 megs.
(well, the kernel-source step included compilers and stuff too)
yeah there are no compilers at all by default
oh, I also noticed that it didn't install your updater
do you know the incantation to force it to? Should I use it?
don't bother. they have released an updated updater since I did that one
64 megs of "apt-get upgrade"
oo could you include avr-gcc and friends? :)
it was nice while it lasted.
fenn: this is just for people to be able to install emc without a net connection!
or with a dialup connection
yeah, what an improvement
fenn: I appreciate your ideas, but what I want to avoid here is becoming a gatekeeper for an "ubuntu plus geekiniess" distribution. I want to stick to updates to the emc2 default install, plus emc2 and axis, plus stuff to rebuild emc2 and axis.
the day would soon come when I had to choose between adding ARM or AVR or PIC development tools, and then I'd have to piss somebody off
* fenn sighs
cradek: any packages I should "apt-get source" besides emc2 and emc2-axis?
maybe some day there will be a "linux for geeks" distro :P
some day there will be. that day was about 1994.
er, I mean, some day there was...
jepler: not afaic
it's too bad there weren't two spare partitions on this machine. I'll have to blow away this install to test the CD
and if I got it wrong .. ouch
you should have let me loan you a disk or two
no spare HD's around?
fenn: they've all got stuff on them .. if only I could figure out if it was important stuff, or just stuff
cradek: where are the docs I should include?
we already have hal-intro
would including some howto's from tldp.org be a bad idea? like "how to set up your internet connection"
maybe thats not such a problem anymore, i know i had to read a lot of stuff to get everything working the first time
Code_Notes is barely for users, but it documents the homing setups and I've pointed users to it for that
I'll call this "good enough" for a first try
I haven't looked at User_Manual but it looks like it's new
guess homing info should be moved to integrator.pdf
yeah it's got a May 4 date
it doesn't have the axis portions, unfortuantely.
I can install a new one on linuxcnc.org if you know how to generate it
don't worry about it
the first cd will fail anyway
ubuntu was a dream to get emc2 working compared to the bdi's
bdi is not made with emc2 in mind - different goals
but it was all there was when I first got interested.
emc1 wasn't doing it for me :)
what was wrong with emc1?
I mean, emc2 has some neat things, but emc1 seemed pretty adequate when I first became aware of it.
it has been a while now - but there was issues with accelleration and pulse train that was fixed with emc2 - after some nudging. Plus axis.
emc1 (not sure about emc4bdi) still has big problems with axes of different units (rotary/linear)
is there an Integrator.pdf on linuxcnc.org?
not in the root
someting i can link to from "Documentation"
Ok I am a little too tipsy for these conversations. time for bed. take it easy
also I could never get the fake pid used for steppers to work as well as stepgen
as much as I played with emc1 - emc2 with all its warts - just ran better.
but that is my opinion
and we've fixed most of the warts now?
yes :) and I have only scratched the surface of it.
I'm glad to hear you think that
I think 2.0.0 is a great release, the best emc ever
i should hope so :)
I am getting a warm fuzzy thinking about how much it has improve from when I started playing with it.
I think I first tried emc(1) in Apr 2004
and it's an awful lot better today.
I had played with it a long time ago - and it didn't really like me that well. :)
oh I bet it felt neutrally about you
it didn't seem to care either way
I was looking for package with some sort of read ahead - that turbocnc didn't have
but it didn't agrea with me.
I also came from software that had no blending
worked surprisingly well, but it was NOT polished software, and was not open source.
goodnight folks. I guess I'll have to wait until tomorrow to try this CD out
* fenn too
just got back from visiting friends, gonna go to be at a reasonable hour tonight
with your new IP backups are flowing again
you'll have to get dyndns working sometime
why does the new IP break it? I thought that cvs2 was pulling them from cvs1?
no, it's the other way around, but you make a good point
that's an easy fix isn't it
I have no idea whether its easy or not
well it's going for now, too many things to do with next week coming up
I am SO GLAD we did the cvs move when we did, after reading the SF status and bug trackers today
because otherwise I'd be working on it tonight, and tomorrow ...
jmkasunich: I was wondering if the pid calculation in emc2 is series or parralell - if that makes sense - and I am just learning about it.
as it is, it's all settled, which is a great relief
skunkworks: not sure I know what you mean by series/parallel
all the terms (P, I, D, FF, etc) are summed at the output
I guess that makes it parallel?
skunkworks, the terms are independent, so I think parallel by your definition
theres a diagram in Hal_Intro that shows the signal flow thru the PID block
does each of the P-I-D effect one another - or are the p-i-d values independent - one does not effect the other
changing the P term has no effect on D, but all of the terms are summed at the end, as jmkasunich said
so if I read that right it is parallel.
(I am just learning
[02:59:48] <jmkasunich> http://linuxcnc.org/Hal_Introduction.pdf
has a diagram thats worth at least a thousand words
bedtime for me
Thank you - serial from what I understand - each calculation feed the next - with is not what I see there.
my portable should be dead soon.
jmkasunich: one more thing - ever thought about some sort of auto pid tuning?
it sounds like something was started a while ago and then lost. - Just thinking out loud.
it could be a user space program, either capture data or use scope, "look" at waveforms, use setp to make changes
definitely non-trivial to implement
now I'm really going to bed
off to bed alos. (acutally already in bed) ;)
last night I successfully got ubuntu to install some packages from a cdrom I made. however, it gave warnings about being unable to verify the integrity of the packages.
next I'll do a fresh install and see if the packages are enough to install emc2 without a network
then I'll figure out what the problem is with verifying the packages
jepler: you probably need to sign them, or add the gpg key to your local ubuntu
I know cradek had to do that for the emc2 packets
alex_joni: I'd followed cradek's directions, so I had his gpg key in my apt.
well, maybe some packets you inlcuded used some strange key which you didn't have
alex_joni: but it seems to me cradek said something about signing the repository itself .. maybe he knows what the deal is
the packages are either from ubuntu or from cradek
oh.. right.. I'm clueless too
unfortunately I didn't save the actual message
bummer.. bet he'll wake up soon
the CD is about half full. If I understand what I did, it has all the additional packages needed to run & build emc2 and emc2-axis, and all the updates for the base packages, source for emc2 and emc2-axis, and some .pdf documentation
cool, did you put the latest docs?
e.g. from CVS?
cradek found me some website URLs
linuxcnc.org, yeah I've seen
so this is sort of a ubuntu bdi?
21:28:50 <cradek> linuxcnc.org/EMC2_User_Manual.pdf
21:29:05 <cradek> linuxcnc.org/EMC2_Code_Notes.pdf
those are a few days (a week old)
jepler: if you get the hang of this.. will you try and make another cd?
SkunkWorks: at fest we want to be able to give out the Ubuntu 5.10 install CD, and an additional CD with everything else needed to run emc2
SkunkWorks: for people with dialup or other slow connections, and also just a way to put stuff into their hands
I was thinking of attempting this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LiveCDCustomizationHowTo
jepler: neat idea.
alex_joni: I looked at that. I just couldn't figure out how to replace the kernel. The process of adding packages was fairly easy, though.
SkunkWorks: the idea isn't mine--it's cradek's or ray's, I think.
wonder if apt-get install wouldn't do the trick
once you are chrooted
alex_joni: you can't change kernel once you're booted!
no, before making the CD I mean
or maybe I missed a step..
it's some very complicated system involving a "udeb" which is a kernel module or collection of kernel modules
I couldn't figure it out and there's little/no documentation
"To do the customizations we mount the now uncompressed filesystem image, use chroot to do our modifications and then start putting everything back together again."
I assumed that is true for the kernel too, but now that you mention it I remember you bitching about it a while ago ;)
I would be thrilled to have a live emc2 but I felt like I hit a brick wall at replacing the kernel
guess I'll give it a try then ;) maybe something good will come out of this
please be my guest
by the way, when the documentation says you have to have enough ram+swap to store several CD images, I know it's hard to believe, but it seems to be true.
to avoid taking extra disk space at one step (when creating a compressed filesystem image) it holds everything in RAM instead
ok, thanks for the warning.. I'm just setting up 3G swap
cool, found a close mirror :)
getting about 2MB/sec
2MB or 2mb?
wow - that should take a few minutes
it did .. about 4
what kind of connection is that?
I'm happy with my 1.5mbs :)
heh, this is a 512kbps :D
but only for internet, the local WAN (intranet) isn't limited (fiber 100Mbit)
and it seems some directions fall into that category ;)
hm... seems the iso is done.. wonder if it will boot
Trying to make a live ubuntu?
but I'm at home now (1 Mbit), and the iso is at work.. so it'll take a while
I can ususally do an iso in about an hour at home
on a good day
here at work it takes a half a day or more :)
sounds about right (1Mbit -> 1.5h, 1.5Mbit -> 1h) ;)
humm.. seems someone else is interested in my tripodkins
the problem is.. wth are they :)
did just sense this? Quick to the emc2-mobile..
[15:41:13] <cradek> http://www.engrish.com/image/engrish/grammar-crisis-room.jpg
The way you said it - it seemed like you sensed that someone was interested.
and yes - I am not known for my spelling or grammar :)
same here ;)
yes so far
I have been helping alex all morning with the ubuntu live cd. Hard work
have you guys had any luck replacing the kernel?
cradek: apt-get seems to have removed the old one and installed the new one inside the chroot
wonder if it's that easy
yeah probably not.
but it sounds like the first step to try.
people in #ubuntu pointed me at dfsbuild
debian from scratch build tool
some tool to build cd's
I looked at it, and you need to provide lists of packages that should go on it.. (seems like a few weeks effort to get right)
I probably get a certificate that I'm still studying, and then they leave me alone for a while
bet that didn't make any sense...
heh, the good news is the ubuntu-live cd booted, and it's got emc2 & AXIS on it
the bad news is that it still uses 2.6.12-9-386, so emc2 won't run
there ought to be a different method of replacing the boot kernel. when you do the chroot stuff, are you in the boot part of the CD, or the "data" part?
the kernel is in some kind of udeb
todays message is 'the $§&/"(&$"/§$§" 432
huh.. that scared him away?
damned labview. I may have to miss the first day or two of CNC workshop. grrr
cradek: did you make an initrd to go with the kernel?
make-kpkg deals with that kind of thing, I didn't do anything special
ok.. I think I'll have to add the kernel myself to the cd
although as it is now, you can probably use it to install a working ubuntu+emc2
lol, just found my favourite quote about Java .. anyone wants to hear it?
Java the drink, or Java the pseudo-programming language? ;)
the language ;)
cradek: I did a fresh ubuntu install. I did "add packages", "advanced", "add cdrom".
a bunch of updates became available, and they all have "unable to verify" warnings
synaptic is doing the updates now
the emc2 and emc2-axis debs appear in the category "Miscellaneous - text based", though I have no idea why
so far, signs point to this CD just needing small tweaks: "authentication", adding a shell script to do everything, and some installation documentation.
it would be nice if the debs weren't in a silly section like "misc - text" but I'd say it doesn't matter much
emc2-axis installed fine. rebooting to see if it works.
sample-configs/sim/axis.ini works like a charm
jepler: you just need to sign the repository & the packages
bet cradek knows how ;)
btw, I build a LiveCD with emc2 & axis on it
it's all well, except that it's not running (wrong kernel)
now I'm fighting udeb & co..
yeah I saw you talk about that earlier
exactly how I got stuck
and again using only the stuff on the CD I was able to rebuild the emc2 and emc2-axis debs
OK, this is really a great success
I know a bit more about this now..
after dinner I'll sort out the rest
I'm searching for a package called: kernel-image-2.6.12-9-386-di
and the appropriate source
good luck .. and goodnight if I don't see you again today
jepler: jfyi, there is a package called 'kernel-wedge' which is supposed to make the udebs
argh.. I had no idea this is so complicated :)
the live cd?
mostly the kernel
* alex_joni is going to places where he's never been :)
this are things that only a handfull of people usually do, and like with out project .. it never gets documented
jmkasunich: so.. how've you been?
I know the feeling
I almost trashed my ubuntu today
* alex_joni makes a mental note: never delete unused partitions inside a logical disk
fscking fdisk decide to renumber the partitions
including the / partition where the grub data was
spent quite some time till I got to boot again
luckily I had built a LiveCD with emc2 on it, so I had a rescue system :D
remind me to shoot myself when emc2 will build like the kernel (same complexity)
we need less not more
I totally agree
I've been doing stuff for the last hour or so, most of which I don't understand at all
I just overwrote several files that had edits in them
ouch.. you should use rsnapshot
no, I should just think before I act
I've set it up today.. works great
and easy to set-up
I got a package from the web, and started hacking it to customize
then I decided "instead of hacking the original program, I should add another prog to the makefile that does my custom stuff, and restore the original
so I saved the source file with my hacks in it under a different name
darn, this kernel compile really takes long :(
added stuff to the makefile
then re-untar'red the original tarball to replace the modified main.c (the one I hacked on, then renamed)
then recopied the package?
and .. ?
but of course that replaced the makefile I just changed
and the minor but plentiful changes I needed to make in a couple other files to get it to compile