jmkasunich is now known as jmk_sleep
hmm.. no-one around?
how are you feeling? better I hope
A bit. The pills are starting to kick it, I think.
How is your weather today?
cold & rainy
but inside it's nice ;)
I really want to talk to you about 2 things
1 would be the tcl licensing task (which is still open, and which I trust we can easily finish)
2 would be about the website
I'll try to get the gpl header on the remaining tcl files this morning.
care to talk about any of these? if not, I won't mind..
you don't have to.. I can do it, but I didn't want to step on your (and anybody else's toes)
Website. The front page looks very good.
it has i18n now, works in german too, very easy to translate
What is the purpose of the software that they are recommending we use for it.
ah. That explains some of the questions I had.
purpose? well 'joomla' is the CMS I chose for it, because it allows most of the things to be done via web interface
I see the login page.
lets talk in board about specifics
The shtml isn't limited like wiki stuff though, or is it?
passwords & such
no, it's html all over, so you can do whatever you want
Okay. Then the only remaining question concerns hosting.
but for ease of usage, there is a wysiwig editor available, so if you don't know html (or don't want to bother), that's taken care of
yes, that part is not clear to me either
That works. I've tended to use bluefish.
but I wanted to populate the website with some data first (it's not all there yet, but it shows a basic concept)
now that I think it's good enough to show around, I was thinking of showing it to the board (most of the board already have seen it), then we should decide how to do it
ideally we would talk to steve about it, and see what the possibilities are
Right. Would you want to put it on your server as a test system.
afaik joomla works on doze too, but I only tried it on linux (it's AMP)
it is alrady set up as a test system
okay. You would just need to supply us names and passwords and we can test it?
Can you give me that link again?
[14:03:03] <alex_joni> http://dsplabs.cs.utt.ro/~juve/joomla/index.php
I need to go away for half an hour, when I get back I can walk you through.. ok?
it's note very difficult, just some things that I need to explain so you'll get them easier (I fought a bit till I understood how it works )
steves_logging is now known as steve_stallings
steve_stallings: Have you got a bit of time to talk about linuxcnc?
Let me get some coffee, brb
Go ahead, alex. I'll follow on as I can with this phone.
steve_stallings: say when back
Back now, shoot
ok, you know the current webpage is pretty much outdated
some parts as content, and the most as design
no kidding ;)
ok, we've been talking about this in the past, so I decided to give it a go, and propose an alternative
I have some friends who did the design & helped on the framework, but it's up and running now
you can see it at: http://dsplabs.cs.utt.ro/~juve/joomla/index.php
That is welcome, I signed on a host and somehow became defacto webmaster.
take a look around that page, and let me know what you think. we can then talk about webmaster & all (hint: it'll be easier)
swpadnos has a linux hosting deal, and in the past he's talked about hosting emc-related files (I think he has a bdi mirror, and offered to host cradek's ubuntu packages too)
jepler: any offer is appreciated, but I'd stick with steve (if technical & such are ok)
and if he still wants to host it.. if not we'll start to look around
Looks good Alex. What is required to run Joomla. My box is -gag- WinNT4 at the moment and will probably become WinNT2K. Bandwidth is only 383K symetrical DSL.
joomla runs on php & mysql
that can be set up on doze aswell (using WAMP or similar)
not sure if that works ok, I never tested (but read it is possible)
Current box is probably too week to add mysql. My plans are to upgrade box and internet circuit sometime around June/July as I plan to move in June.
I have on agenda so far as being host, that is Ray's call.
do you still want to do that? (no problem if not..)
I'm happy if you do (saves us the problem of moving DNS records & such), but it's ok either way.. your call
jmk_sleep is now known as jmkasunich
steve_stallings: what speed/etc is the existing box?
I assume you want to stick with windows?
phone, one moment
ok, so .. jmk was wondering what box you have for that
Box is WinNT-4, ancient. Will be replaced with Win2k and new box about June. Circuit is 384K symetric DSL.
yeah, I read back that part
128 Mb, 266 pentium, scsi raid, DAT tape
would a dual 600MHz Pentium 3 with 2x 18G SCSI drives and RAID be a step up? or do you just want to buy new
hardware is not a problem for me, just time to do the transition
ok, I have that box (actually a 3.5" high rackmount server) and I figured I'd offer
lots of stuff to move, mail server, list server, metalworking dropbox, DNS server, Cold Fusion, ......
jmkasunich: hate it when I'm so far away.. I would have loved a server like that (not for free I mean)
bummer - pay the freight and it would be yours, I paid nothing for it, and from anyone who contributes to EMC development I would expect nothing
steve_stallings: that gets +
that gets easily hard to do (lots to move)
plus there are a fair number of changes to domain management and DNS between NT3 and 2K
given the time investment it is a shame not to move to Linux, but that complicates too many other issues with my business
I see you guys have been very busy getting EMC2 ready for us Aunt Tillie types. Thanks.
steve_stallings: how about a second box?
or wouldn't that be ok?
Also see from Alex's prototype web page that groundwork has been laid for documenting an install other than BDI. Again, progress.
steve_stallings: lots of progress lately..
Second box, second fixed IP, have to pay monthly for each fixed IP. Might as well pay for hosting service somewhere.
jmkasunich: doesn't help
but you could have a smart router that accesses two boxes behind it based on the page requested
I was thinking different services - you could route port 80 to one box and another port to another
Cheap routers will not direct port 80 traffic to multiple web servers.
and it gets easily messy
but if everything is html on port 80, you can't split it
you can, but not with a stock router
a little bit of iptables foo, and it works
but it's ugly..
if you had ftp or mail or etc, then you could split based on service
and an unnecessary complication
forget I said anything ;-)
No, I'll just set up the hardware and give JMK admin status.
forget I said anything ;-)
steve_stallings: it seems it's kinda complicated for you, mind if we look around and see what alternatives there are?
Not at all. I may be "old reliable", but I am not that effective and don't have any pride invested in being host.
In my experience shared efforts tend to get hung up on money issues. If you can dodge that bullet people should be happy.
I'd be more than happy to donate that server hardware, the problem will be the net connection
heh, if I act quickly (next few days) I can get a matching disk array, 8x18G SCSI drives with redundant power supplies and rackmount
<steve_stallings> wrote -- I have on agenda so far as being host, that is Ray's call.
Just set up a Dell at the office with dual 533 CPU, redundant supplies, raid aware SCSI, and Mammoth tape. Old but sweet.
I'm happy that the emc board is moving into this issue and pleased to turn over any interest I might have to them.
My only concern is that the board is not an entity any any USA sence.
Thus the issues with money.....
it looks like we have hardware, we have manpower to set up and administer it, but we don't have somewhere to put it and hook it up to the net.
that last one is the one that involves a continuing stream of $
not big $ I don't think, but $
we all are happy to volunteer time but not money...
I have been offered a few dollars a few times for emc -- My reluctance to accept is a question of who receives.
I have one question?
why aren't we using the webspace that SF gives us?
jmkasunich: do they provide mysql?
Doesn't the current wiki use mysql?
I dunno, have to go there and look
no, it uses files for storing data
jmkasunich: I can look into it
mysql is for the joomba thing right?
it is available it seems
looks like they have mysql, ssi, cgi, php
the price is right
yup, and 100MB is more than enough
seems like an obvious thing to try
ok, I can sign up to do that
how about the wiki?
I have no idea how that is set up
it's set up at emc.sourceforge.net
in the root dir
would the joomba thing replace the wiki or do we still want it?
we still want a wiki
preferably a different one though
and it's joomla not joomba ;)
cradek: yes, but that's a different topic ;)
alex_joni: I'll help with setup however I can
I think the wiki currently has some sort of special mechanism to do automated backups so that "temp" stuff doesn't get lost. Will that be an issue for Joomla?
SourceForge.net requires that the SourceForge.net logo (and a link to http://www.sourceforge.net
associated with that logo) be included on all project web pages served from our project web service.
cradek: I don't see that as a problem
A reasonable request in my opinion.
cradek: right, we'll add that to the footer
it's pretty ok
Can any "developer" edit a web site on sourceforge? Security issues?
steve_stallings: there are various levels for users
they can be set-up as publishers & webadmins so they can do that
but it's best if not all are allowed
jmkasunich: so it's ok if I try to set up joomla on emc.sourceforge.net/new/ ?
or maybe a different name?
emc.sourceforge.net/ should stay as wiki for now
why are you asking me?
you had the idea of moving to SF ;) (which is reasonable) :P
how about emc.sourceforge.net/joomla
ok, that is ok
I assume that eventually we'll make linuxcnc.org point wherever we need it to point
The power to "make linuxcnc.org point wherever we need it to point" is my last concern here.
Steve holds that key now.
that's DNS foo, it can be taken care of
we were wondering where you were
back from vacation?
can you read back todays logs on emc-devel and tell us your oppinions?
I have a bookmark for the directory :)
do I need to look at the end of yesterday's log as well?
don't think so
about since 3pm today (gmt+2)
ok, around the time skunkworks left
and cradek made the tp changes
duh - you write 3pm, and I'm looking at 03:00 (AM). oops :)
was wondering what dovetail ways had to do with emc devel ;)
there were discussions about high speed spindles, round cilumn rong-fu mills, and that sort of thing
heh.. missed those
well, it was 03:00 :)
ok.. glad I missed those ;)
went to bed around 2:30 am
just in time
I suppose it would also have been better for me to look at the emc-devel logs, not the emc logs
man, I'm stupid before I've had enough coffee
guess why I sent you the link?
yeah yeah, blah blah blah
ok - just caught up (and got more coffee)
SWP: did you read my email about the disk array?
yep - didn't have a chance to respond
I may be interested, if I end up driving to CNC workshop / Fest
the thing is still on the dock, if I want it I need to grab it tomorrow
do you know the drive speeds (RPM or SCSI type)?
they have the 80 pin hot-plug connectors (power and data on same connector)
ok. well, if it's a PITA to get it, then it's probably not worth it (sad to say)
they're taller than the normal form factor, about 1-1/4" instead of <1"
the total storage is 144G, which is peanuts these days
"full height" - 1.6 inches
(8 fit across the rack with not much to spare)
right - I was commenting to another guy about the densith
I have 3 x 36G drives now, and a hot-swap cage
there was another older rack from a VAX there - 8x2G drives
so one drive in the nice rack replaces a whole rack of the VAX stuff
better than an RL-05 disk pack
and one modern drive replaces the whole rack of 18G drives
one not-so-modern drive, these days
or a whole _cabinet_ of the VAX stuff
I have two 300G SATA drives for my new machine, and could have 8 if I wanted
modern = 160/250GB isn't it?
(and they could be 500G also)
ok, it stays there
they were a whopping $120 each
shame tho, that thing was built like a brick sh*thouse
yeah - I hate to see quality replaced by "economy"
if I had the space I'd bring the racks home, they're quite nice
that's why I asked about the interface - you can get higher density drives for the cage (pretty cheaply), but if it's WSCSI or Ultra2 (80M/sec), it's probably not worth it
I think U160 or U320 would be worth it though, for the cage
jmkasunich: any tape drives in that dumpster? :D
maybe one day ;)
there were a couple tape libraries a while back, each had two drives
some strange tape format
there weren't any tapes in there, but when I took apart a drive, it seems the cartridge only has one reel
I see.. I'd prefer something I can get tapes for ;)
the drive grabs the end of the tape and winds it up on an internal reel, then unwinds it back into the cardridge when done
I took the libraries apart for the small servomotors from the tape handling parts
SWPadnos: I could have gotten one of these for free: http://www.dealtime.com/xPO-Seagate_CERTANCE_TRAVAN_20GB_DESKTOP_USB_2_0_TAPEWARE_XE_MEDIA
but I turned it down
travan tapes are crap
or at least, they were 5-10 years ago
10G is .. crap ;)
yep - those drives used to be connected to the floppy controller
it's USB though
but still a floppy interface internally, I'd bet
yeah, probably an USB->floppy chip in there
that's why I mentioned (something like) total backup time as one of the parameters when searching for a tape drive
so - on the hosting issue - I have bandwidth and storage to spare
that can be used for linuxcnc.org
SWPadnos: we had an idea from jmk to use SF for that
they provide 100 MB for each project + mysql & all
that would be good most of the time, though a full distro could be a problem
I'll try to set up things there, if it won't work, then we'll ask you..
no distro to mirror
also the service is spotty sometimes
though they have lots of mirrors, so that shouldn't be a problem
yes, that's a problem
now that we're moving toward ubuntu, a full distro shouldn't be needed
mostly true, though I think a live CD and/or a BDI-like installation should still be an option
but I didn't see many problems with www on SF (lots with CVS & shell)
SF won't want us doing that (and the space limit would prevent it anyway)
but we could link to .iso stored elsewhere
but they support something like that in the file release.. though
(like your server, if you have the space/bw)
even if it's not encouraged
* alex_joni has space on his mirror
67G storage, 1834GB/mo bandwidth
a few dozen gigs
no limit on bandwith here
except the connection ;)
1834GB ? or 1.834 GB
thats a lot of isos
oh, you have a limit for 1.834 TB ? that's mad :D
heh - yep
wonder what good that does
nothing, it's essentially unlimited
we may one day have a live CD based on ubuntu
and it goes up by 16GB per week
* alex_joni goes back to joomla
that limit is to keep you from hosting pron
hmmm - that's about equivalent to saturating 4 T1 lines all month
high-quality pr0n ;)
pr0n ISOs (DVD, of course)
the other hosting option I had suggested was to get a separate account for linuxcnc (not needed at the moment, but it's an option)
I can give a discount of $97 on a hosting plan
the same plan I have is $16/mo with a 2 year prepayment, or $380-ish total for 2 years
280-ish after discount
[18:49:43] <jepler> http://forevergeek.com/geek_resources/dreamhost_promo_codes.php
I test drove one of their accounts, and the first-year cost would have been around $30 using one of the codes. A higher price after that, though.
that's the thing I like about the plan I have - it's the same (or lower) in perpetuity
the discount is a one-time thing (basically, I donate the referral bonus)
yeah, but 93% off the first year may be more than $97 off. depending on the plan.
almost guaranteed, actually ;)
ok - it looks like these codes aren'r anything special - the 93% off is only up to the $97 referral fee, not a true 93% discount
jepler: you around?
cradek seems to be gone..
* alex_joni needs some help sorting something out
cat something | sort > out
I'm getting errors from the installer, saying it's not beeing able to write to some files, yet I have them all chmod'ed as 777
hmmm - several changes to Makefile in the last week
steve_stallings is now known as steves_logging
[21:53:06] <_steve> http://www.fruitsalad.org/people/phil/kde/userguide-tng/kde-menu.html
swp - not stallings
err - yep
I am me
I am confused
I am not
I am unaware
_steve = SWP
yes, _steve is SWPadnos
* cradek hides
* alex_joni cries in agony
_steve is now known as SWP_Laptop
I wonder how well Linux/X deals with hotplugging mice and keyboards
very well, in my experience
not if they are PS2 typed
waaaaaaaay better than Windows
even there, I've had pretty good success
* jmkasunich is about to start testing surplus KVM switches
SWPadnos: yes, I have to, but I once fried a mobo
because I pulled the keyboard out
* jmkasunich stops in his tracks
well, ymmv ;)
probably a static problem
seems USB is meant for hotplugging, PS/2 is not
jmkasunich: it might work.. but use at your own risk ;)
you'll end up using a USB keyboard in the end
nah, PS/2 forever
good kvm do not let the computer see the stuff being disconnected
no, I mean you'll have to use USB, after the PS/2 port is fried
cradek: I thought any KVM does that?
cradek: I know, but that's not what I'm doing
it's a problem with setting up the KVM while the PC is/are running.. right?
I'm about to disconnect my 2-way kvm and put a 4-way in its splace
except it looks like I'm not after all
I coulda swore the 4-way ones had normal connectors on back
but they're DB-25 (for special cables)
seems we do need to look around for a hoster for linuxcnc.org
SF's site (at least at the moment) is not really useable
SWP: how much?
oops - hi there
alex_joni, how much what?
he's gone to bed
ok - I saw the good-bye, but no sign-off
his computer lurks
he was asking about hosting
yep - 67G storage + 1834 GB/month bandwidth, free!
either "how much disk/bandwidth" or "how much $" I dunno which
wow do you think you could give us a little better price?
or, roughly $300 for 2 years, for a new plan (I'll donate the $97 referral bonus)
yes, for you, it's twice as much!
so we could use your plan for free OR pay $300? let me think about this
think, think, think
well, that's a tough one, isn't it :)
at some point, I'd need to kick you guys off, if I ever get my ass in gear and actually use my websites
but that's not likely before the end of the year or so
no sweet deal is ever forever
(at least, if I know my butt)
I was looking forward to having a 4-way KVM
you don't have the right cables?
there are more cables in the truck, but I think they go the 16-way
[22:30:30] <jmkasunich> http://www.raritan.com/products/kvm_switches/master_console/mast_con_II/prd_cms_index.aspx?currpg=prd_cms_index&name=MasterConsole%20II&content_category=4&overview_flag=Y&features_flag=Y&spec_flag=Y&support_flag=Y&status=4
I have two of those
[22:30:48] <jmkasunich> http://www.raritan.com/products/kvm_switches/compu_switch/compu_switch/prd_cms_index.aspx?currpg=prd_cms_index&name=CompuSwitch&content_category=1&overview_flag=Y&features_flag=Y&spec_flag=Y&support_flag=Y&status=4
one of those
I could have sworn they had regular connectors on the back
I have about 12 sets of regular cables
they are 8 way?
(those products come 2, 4, or 8)(
ouch the cables are $50 each at cdw
[22:33:58] <cradek> http://www.cdw.com/shop/products/default.aspx?EDC=531777
KVM cables are a ripoff
thats why the manufactureres changed from standard pinouts
simple matter of soldering??
if it comes to that, perhaps
if you had even one to test for pinout
shouldn't be too bad to hack up and terminate your existing cable sets in a DB25 shell
I have one other 4-way, a belkin F1D066, but the bastards don't even have it on their website anymore
that one uses regular cables ;-)
but the Raritan ones are the right size to sit under my LCD
[22:37:12] <cradek> http://www.cablesforless.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2484
cheap + pinout
at that price I
I'd buy four
I probably would too, faced with soldering all those connectors
I much prefer molded ends
hmm, quantity discount
ow, it's only 6.5'
do your 16-way boxes take the same cables?
good enough for me, I have two computers on the bench, the additional ports are for laptop or testing use
the 16-way boxes are Black-Box
I have 16 cables that I think match them
that load is still in the truck, I should bring it in next
yeah, these cables are marked Black-Box
I'm guessing 20 ft
blackbox model SW725A-R2
drat, no longer listed on their website
ebay $119 BIN with no cables
and no power supply
what a DEAL
other one is KV134A
I have no power supply
don't see that one on ebay...
[22:49:54] <jmkasunich> http://www.blackbox.com/Catalog/Detail.aspx?cid=537,604,539&mid=476
they don't list KV134A, just KV134A-R2
blackbox is often the most expensive alternative
that is the mainframe, there are four cards
1000 computers and 16 consoles?? holy crap
the website lists KV1301C-R2
one customer: google ;)
at least one other
if you had to use windows for servers, you would really need this stuff
(the one whose dumpster I picked this out of ;-)
according to blackbox, the -R2 is a firmware revision
ok, this box lets up to four users access up to 16 CPUs
and lists for $4995
here's one at $1628: macmall.com
I have the CPU to box cables
but not the box to user cable(s)
here's one at NewEgg for $89.99
that seems unlikely...?
not one cable (a medusa to the CPUs, or combined keyboard/mouse/video?)
there are 20 DB-25 female connectors on back of the box
16 go to computers
4 go to users
what resolution video can you get through those cables? (or the electronics)
they claim 1280x1024
for servers that should be plenty
they're never as clear as a local monitor
(plenty, not as clear)
who has servers that have graphics anyway??
[23:05:42] <jmkasunich> http://www.blackbox.com/Catalog/Detail.aspx?cid=537,1299,1354&mid=2111
novell?? didn't have graphics last time I saw it
that's what it needs
unless you count the snake
that started with Novell 6, I think
jmkasunich: those aren't even too expensive
have you guys seen any dual-monitor KVMs yet?
I was just thinking about that
buy the one foot cable for $32, use it to test the box, then offer box w/1 user cable and 16 CPU cables on ebay, starting bid $500 ;-)
still have to solve the power supply question?
this one has AC input
the other one is one user, 16 CPUs, and the user port is also a DB-25
are you looking for kvm cables?
with a cable attached ;-)
pretty soon people are going to expect DVI KVM
so you better sell these sooner rather than later
dual and/or dual-link DVI KVM
Belkin has some relatively cheap ones that can connect to USB or PS/2, and they actually convert for you
good point about usb
(ie, connect a USB keyboard, and you can still plug into PS/2 or USB computers
wonder how long we'll have ps2 ports on our motherboards
I have one without
but that model was discontinued ;)
hmm, ebay item 5863914389
I'll have a fit when I have to quit using my AT keyboards
there are PS/2 (and parallel/serial) to USB dongles
but there may not be for long - you should get one soon
jmkasunich: wow, 10 available
This unit use standart KVM cables, which you can buy as low as $10 on ebay.
they are standard....
for this line of KVM switch
hmm, none have been bought at this price...
the way I read the ebay add, that unit has only one card/module in it
maybe $500 is a little steep ;)
that means one user and 4 cpus
what's the KV1301 vs. the KV1305?
the ebay is badly worded
it does say that each is fully loaded, one 1305 + a few 1301
on purpose I'm sure
does that mean each unit has a 1305 and the remaining slots (3) have 1301, or does it mean most units have 1 1305 and a few units have 1 1301?
it means he's too lazy to write a few sentences but you're supposed to buy his stuff anyway
too bad you can't ask him fora couple more days