Back
[00:51:51] <rayh> Where can I get info about the ubuntu and the emc related packages?
[00:52:32] <SWPadnos> for info on ubuntu in general, there's ubuntu.org
[00:52:52] <SWPadnos> cradek has the info on emc packages for it
[00:53:08] <rayh> I'm thinking of the speciics on the emc related packages. We need a wiki page on this.
[00:53:14] <SWPadnos> he has a script (from his website?) for doing the install
[00:53:16] <SWPadnos> yep
[00:54:22] <rayh> The only ubuntu I see on the wiki is the stuff from Lawrence and Paul.
[00:54:44] <SWPadnos> I'm not sure there is any more info, but I agree that there should be
[00:54:49] <SWPadnos> (in the wiki)
[00:55:31] <rayh> I guess I'll have to visit timeguy or whatever. How you doing this evening?
[00:55:39] <SWPadnos> ok, you?
[00:56:06] <rayh> Worked out in the wind today. Sawmill stuff. Kinda wiped out.
[00:56:19] <SWPadnos> I can imagine. is it still cold there?
[00:56:35] <rayh> Started about 0 and got up to near 15
[00:56:44] <SWPadnos> http://www.timeguy.com/cradek/emc/ubuntu
[00:56:46] <SWPadnos> balmy :)
[00:56:54] <rayh> Thanks for the link.
[00:56:58] <SWPadnos> sure
[00:57:14] <rayh> balmy it is. The 500mcm wire was just a bit stiff though.
[00:57:28] <SWPadnos> 500mcm - what's the diameter of that?
[00:58:37] <rayh> about 1 1/8 inch with the insulation.
[00:58:48] <SWPadnos> ok - 0.850" - thick!
[00:58:59] <SWPadnos> copper?
[00:59:05] <rayh> 4 of em into a 4 inch conduit.
[00:59:20] <SWPadnos> that's a bitch to bend in any weather
[00:59:32] <rayh> near a ton of copper in that one run.
[00:59:33] <SWPadnos> even 7/8 aluminum isn't trivial
[01:00:10] <SWPadnos> yep - should be about 1 pound for every 4 inches (plus the insulation)
[01:00:11] <rayh> A few years ago I pulled some wire like this with first time copper.
[01:00:28] <rayh> It was really easy to bend. Today's alloyed stuff is really a bitch.
[01:00:54] <SWPadnos> heh, I'm not sure a human could do it to beryllium copper
[01:01:03] <SWPadnos> and definitely not phosphor bronze
[01:02:45] <rayh> Right. This is just trash/copper. Recycled in these metals leaves something to be desired.
[01:03:21] <rayh> Anyway. The wire is in and connected at both ends.
[01:03:36] <SWPadnos> cool, you have a new 600A service now ;)
[01:03:47] <SWPadnos> or a very beefy DSL line
[01:03:59] <rayh> Now for 300 amps of 480 volt phase converter and we'll be ready to connect machines.
[01:04:19] <rayh> Don't I wish DSL was here, or even close.
[01:04:23] <SWPadnos> heh
[01:04:35] <SWPadnos> as I recall, you even have horizon troubles with satellite
[01:04:53] <rayh> This spring I'll put up a tower and get someone in town to host a directional 802
[01:05:02] <SWPadnos> pringles cans to the rescue
[01:05:09] <rayh> That's it.
[01:05:12] <SWPadnos> (plus you get to eat the pringles)
[01:05:24] <rayh> rofl
[01:05:55] <rayh> I thought I'd have to build a CNC parabola spinner.
[01:05:59] <SWPadnos> or conversely, you have to eat the pringles (depending on diets and stuff)
[01:06:13] <rayh> see food diet.
[01:06:14] <SWPadnos> there's a good reason to have an ellipse command in emc :)
[01:06:18] <SWPadnos> me too
[01:06:27] <SWPadnos> I just try to not look at crappy food
[01:06:48] <rayh> double bacon cheeseburger for lunch.
[01:06:56] <rayh> near barf all afternoon.
[01:07:02] <SWPadnos> yummy - especially with mushrooms and Guacamole
[01:07:30] <rayh> Oh I went for the health food version, lettuce and tomatoe.
[01:07:34] <rayh> tomato.
[01:07:46] <SWPadnos> tomatoes are fine too
[01:07:54] <SWPadnos> as long as they're ripe
[01:08:23] <rayh> Vine ripened. It's a UP dream.
[01:08:37] <rayh> Happens usually one day in september.
[01:09:03] <SWPadnos> yummy - especially with buffalo mozzarella, basil, and a bit of oil and vinegar (balsamic) drizzsled on
[01:09:41] <rayh> Yep. That is a favorite (usually sheep cheese) in Germany.
[01:10:12] <SWPadnos> heh - or exactly as I described, in Italy (insalata Caprese, or Capri salad)
[01:10:27] <rayh> Nice.
[01:10:54] <SWPadnos> also made well at Guido's italian restaurant, in Los Angeles :)
[01:12:00] <rayh> There are not many so called Italian restaurants in the USA that I like. Usually avoid 'em if they call themselves that.
[01:12:12] <SWPadnos> yep
[01:12:18] <SWPadnos> I think it's just called Guido's
[01:12:21] <rayh> But next time in LA I will have to visit Guido's.
[01:12:28] <SWPadnos> 11950 Santa Monica, I think
[01:12:49] <rayh> Okay.
[01:13:03] <SWPadnos> oops - 11980
[01:13:18] <rayh> Close enough.
[01:13:24] <SWPadnos> it's been a couple of years since I've been there :)
[01:14:09] <rayh> You thinking about attending CNC-Workshop?
[01:14:15] <SWPadnos> considering it.
[01:14:24] <SWPadnos> I'll have to see how the camera project goes though
[01:14:48] <rayh> I wonder if having a code group part of each day would be good.
[01:15:13] <SWPadnos> for the workshop? I'm not sure
[01:15:14] <rayh> JMK and I had talked about a code week after but it makes a long time away from home.
[01:15:20] <SWPadnos> yep
[01:15:45] <cradek> hi all
[01:15:53] <rayh> Hi Chris.
[01:16:01] <SWPadnos> maybe run classes or retrofits half day and do coding the other half, but I'm not sure
[01:16:03] <SWPadnos> hi Chris
[01:16:21] <SWPadnos> I always feel like I'm missing out on whatever else is going on
[01:16:28] <rayh> I was thinking I could lecture on the beginning stuff while you guys code.
[01:16:42] <SWPadnos> heh - "Loudmouth duties" :)
[01:16:43] <rayh> Then of course evenings would be taken up with code+
[01:17:10] <rayh> That's it.
[01:17:26] <SWPadnos> it also depends on what else is going on - there may be things that the emc folk want to attend, so that cuts into coding (or sleep) time
[01:17:28] <rayh> What do you think Chris?
[01:18:09] <rayh> My guess is that the code stuff will be as much architecting as writing.
[01:18:15] <rayh> Much like last year.
[01:18:17] <cradek> I think I'll be able to come
[01:18:25] <cradek> but it's my first so I don't know what it's about
[01:18:30] <SWPadnos> does anyone (other than Paul) have a copy of his lathe code?
[01:18:56] <cradek> SWPadnos: nobody has ever seen it afaik
[01:18:59] <SWPadnos> my first CNC workshop as well, if I make it
[01:19:00] <rayh> Would you want a code and coder only time
[01:19:14] <rayh> Paul said that it was not compatable with emc2
[01:19:17] <SWPadnos> well - at least a time separate from the cnc workshop
[01:19:21] <cradek> rayh: if we have goals, I think that would be great
[01:19:44] <rayh> I would let you guys make up the goals for coding sessions.
[01:19:45] <SWPadnos> look over the 2004 and 2005 fest goals, and I think threading will be #1 :(
[01:19:57] <cradek> personally I'm struggling with the concept of paying money to help people convert machines and give away (for free) the software I helped write (for free)
[01:20:04] <SWPadnos> heh
[01:20:10] <cradek> (I'm serious)
[01:20:19] <SWPadnos> yeah - I'd hope that the fest people could get in for free or something
[01:20:21] <SWPadnos> I agree
[01:20:43] <cradek> it feels wrong since we're providers, not consumers
[01:20:53] <cradek> seems there should be a difference.
[01:20:53] <rayh> I understand. Roland does have a lot of expense. Tents and porta-potties and such.
[01:21:12] <rayh> We do fit into the thing a bit different than the average.
[01:21:15] <SWPadnos> actually, there should be CDs available, and we should sell them for a small fee (like $5), and use the cash to fund the llinuxcnc.org website
[01:21:17] <cradek> I'm sure that's very true
[01:21:49] <SWPadnos> well - if we can teach some classes, that shoud be taken into consideration for entrance fees
[01:21:54] <cradek> SWPadnos: I'd rather get in free, and give away CDs (even at my expense)
[01:22:18] <cradek> I plan to order ubuntu a stack of CDs
[01:22:21] <cradek> err
[01:22:27] <cradek> I plan to order a stack of ubuntu CDs
[01:22:29] <rayh> That would be great.\
[01:22:36] <SWPadnos> sure - I'm just thinking about getting the website onto a faster server, which costs some $
[01:22:47] <SWPadnos> not the most important thing, but still
[01:22:50] <cradek> true
[01:22:55] <rayh> You bet.
[01:23:47] <SWPadnos> the dreamhost rates are really good. I can set up a discount certificate that gets $97 off the fees as well (I can just donate my referral fee)
[01:23:59] <SWPadnos> s/fee/reward/
[01:24:59] <cradek> dreamhost does seem good
[01:25:05] <rayh> I'm not convinced that we should host it on a site that has a charge for over xxx per month.
[01:25:06] <cradek> I think jepler has looked into them
[01:25:37] <cradek> rayh: I think their limits are really high
[01:25:55] <rayh> and the cost of on tb?
[01:25:57] <SWPadnos> 1.6 TB/month transfer, 60GB storage, for $15.95/month
[01:25:58] <cradek> rayh: but I know how you feel
[01:26:12] <SWPadnos> that includes a prepayment discount
[01:26:16] <SWPadnos> http://www.dreamhost.com/shared/comparison.html
[01:26:30] <SWPadnos> code monster is what I have (for cncgear.com)
[01:26:42] <cradek> we would never get near that unless we hosted some very popular ISOs
[01:26:43] <rayh> I guess I just got spoiled by tbl when he was at Sherline.
[01:27:00] <cradek> and I doubt we'll ever host ISOs again
[01:27:11] <SWPadnos> every time they have a new special, they give you the new deal (I started at 7.68G storage and 256G transfer)
[01:27:12] <cradek> yeah he was sure a big help
[01:27:19] <rayh> I don't think I'd say that.
[01:27:30] <rayh> An ISO is very nice.
[01:27:40] <rayh> For folk who are web challenged.
[01:27:42] <SWPadnos> I think an ISO is pretty critical
[01:27:57] <cradek> if it had just our packages, it would be small, that's fine
[01:28:01] <cradek> I meant a 600M iso
[01:28:14] <SWPadnos> it still won't get too high - cncgear is around 120G/month, and it's all the BDI ISO
[01:28:16] <rayh> That's exactly what I mean also.
[01:28:47] <SWPadnos> well - given the choice of what I've seen of puppy, and th eBDI4.x, I'd take the 600M ISO
[01:28:57] <SWPadnos> puppy is cool, but looks childish at this point
[01:28:59] <cradek> SWPadnos: try my ubuntu packages then
[01:29:07] <SWPadnos> it's about 10 years behind the curve for UI design
[01:29:18] <rayh> I got another complaint today about the dead brown screen.
[01:29:27] <SWPadnos> I will. I may even plop in some 64-bit ones one day
[01:29:41] <cradek> rayh: who? what hardware? what stage in the install?
[01:29:43] <rayh> I wish I had it so I could at least pretend to know what's going on.
[01:29:55] <SWPadnos> I can mail you an ISO if you like
[01:29:55] <cradek> rayh: sure is taking a while to get your CDs to you
[01:30:00] <SWPadnos> I mean, a disc
[01:30:24] <cradek> rayh: did it give errors during the earlier stages of the install?
[01:30:26] <SWPadnos> you sent some already?
[01:30:41] <cradek> ubuntu will send them to you for free if you just ask. ray asked
[01:30:45] <cradek> but I guess they're a little slow.
[01:30:47] <SWPadnos> ah - OK
[01:31:09] <rayh> No folk are downloading ubuntu and getting ready to try the emc install.
[01:31:20] <SWPadnos> hmmm - should the ubuntu packages work for a BDI?
[01:31:35] <cradek> rayh: "No" is a bit of an overstatement
[01:31:45] <cradek> SWPadnos: don't know
[01:31:54] <cradek> SWPadnos: probably not
[01:31:57] <SWPadnos> I'd say that no "customers" are doing that - only early adopters and developers
[01:32:06] <rayh> Don't think it will without some sort of apt mixed packages.
[01:32:12] <cradek> sure, that's because there hasn't been an announcement
[01:32:20] <SWPadnos> well, they're both debian/apt based
[01:32:35] <cradek> SWPadnos: the depends will be wrong - kernel versions etc
[01:32:37] <rayh> sarge v breezy
[01:32:42] <SWPadnos> right - it's better to have a single CD with the correct packages - like the BDI
[01:32:44] <SWPadnos> ok
[01:32:56] <cradek> SWPadnos: I disagree totally
[01:33:13] <SWPadnos> I should be able to --force the versions in the emc repository, but it probably isn't worth it
[01:33:22] <SWPadnos> in addition to the .deb based system
[01:33:40] <rayh> How much trouble would it be to build a deb for BDI?
[01:33:45] <cradek> SWPadnos: if you run my kernel, rtai, and emc packages together, it might work
[01:33:59] <SWPadnos> that's what I was thinking, but it's still too much bother ;)
[01:34:01] <cradek> rayh: if we picked one version and people didn't update parts of it, pretty easy
[01:34:17] <rayh> Okay.
[01:34:18] <cradek> rayh: as soon as they change kernels, rtai, etc, our package won't work anymore.
[01:34:55] <cradek> rayh: I am doing this because I think it's best for us to have control of all the necessary packages together. Otherwise we're always guessing how to match up.
[01:35:10] <rayh> Sure. I'm pretty convinced that we must think of kernel, real-time, and emc as an entity.
[01:35:24] <cradek> it's true (if a bit unfortunate)
[01:35:37] <cradek> with precompiled stuff, that's 100% true
[01:35:37] <rayh> I understand your reasoning and agree totally.
[01:35:52] <SWPadnos> I wonder how difficult it would be to split out HAL, RTAPI, and emc
[01:36:03] <SWPadnos> difficult, I imagine
[01:36:15] <cradek> there would have to be a very good reason to do that work
[01:36:25] <SWPadnos> well - RTAPI is pretty stable
[01:36:37] <SWPadnos> HAL is fairly stable (only needs updating when a component changes)
[01:36:58] <rayh> Having more than one distro out there makes any exclusive claims mute.
[01:37:08] <SWPadnos> though HAL has changed more than emc proper lately
[01:37:14] <cradek> what do you mean by exclusive claims?
[01:37:36] <rayh> That "this distro" is the real EMC.
[01:38:01] <SWPadnos> that's one reason for having "no distro", and emc as an application
[01:38:12] <cradek> SWPadnos: exactly right
[01:38:14] <SWPadnos> like any of the Windows based controllers
[01:38:17] <cradek> it *is* an application
[01:38:33] <cradek> it's just very picky how it runs
[01:38:35] <rayh> It will never even approach being just another app.
[01:38:51] <cradek> rayh: wait until you install it on ubuntu before you think that
[01:38:59] <SWPadnos> it's close now, actually - it just has more specific kernel requirements than most apps
[01:39:00] <cradek> rayh: I worked really hard to make it as easy as any other app.
[01:39:11] <rayh> You have not heard the horror stories I have already.
[01:39:32] <cradek> rayh: then how am I supposed to help?
[01:39:48] <rayh> You are doing great.
[01:39:50] <cradek> rayh: I've had some good bug reports (from jmk) and fixed the problems he ran into
[01:40:15] <rayh> I saw that.
[01:40:25] <cradek> rayh: I was hoping he would pop in tonight, to see how my latest fixes worked
[01:40:33] <SWPadnos> there should be an ubuntu category for the SF tracker, maybe
[01:40:57] <rayh> I'd put it on the wiki.
[01:41:05] <rayh> Rather than making it a part of sf.
[01:41:17] <SWPadnos> that's good for install info, but bug reports are a different story
[01:41:36] <cradek> here's where it gets confusing
[01:41:48] <rayh> I don't see how a ubuntu bug with finding a cdrom is an EMC specific problem.
[01:42:02] <cradek> If someone can't install ubuntu and get it to run BEFORE anything with emc2, there are other bug trackers more appropriate than theirs.
[01:42:04] <SWPadnos> well - that's different ;)
[01:42:05] <cradek> rayh: exactly
[01:42:13] <cradek> err than OURS
[01:42:30] <rayh> And the BDI shouldered all of that burden.
[01:42:42] <cradek> right, and I believe that's the wrong way to go about it.
[01:42:53] <rayh> To make a single system that worked across a very wide range of machines.
[01:43:00] <SWPadnos> install problems - those are generally rare for ubuntu - do you know the hardware these people had problems with?
[01:43:16] <rayh> You realize that you are talking to the inventor of the BDI?
[01:43:21] <cradek> rayh: jmk had to boot the kernel with "noapic" for his network card to work
[01:43:53] <SWPadnos> I think the idea is that the emc developers should be concerned with emc, not necessarily the OS that it runs on
[01:43:56] <cradek> rayh: no, I didn't, but that doesn't change my opinion
[01:44:20] <cradek> argh, the message about noapic was for SWPadnos
[01:44:24] <SWPadnos> though it's definitely helpful to provide a BDI-type install, and deal with tech support issues that arise from it
[01:44:26] <rayh> Sure. It is not the responsibility of the EMC core to make a full distribution.
[01:44:33] <cradek> I'm on my terrible laptop keyboard
[01:44:45] <rayh> Yuck.
[01:45:05] <SWPadnos> regarding ubuntu - I know it's great with modern hardware, I'm not so sure about older hardware - the kind of machine that people would relegate to running emc (or that has an SIA slot)
[01:45:16] <SWPadnos> ISA - duh
[01:45:39] <cradek> SWPadnos: there seems to be problems in recent 2.6 kernels that require fiddling with apic boot flags
[01:45:42] <rayh> my dyslexia didn't even notice.
[01:45:50] <SWPadnos> heh
[01:46:01] <cradek> SWPadnos: I think that's fixed in my kernel, but in the installer kernel it's a problem.
[01:46:08] <SWPadnos> sometimes - possibly for buggy BIOSes
[01:46:12] <rayh> There are huge problems with the entire 2.6 kernel and rtai or any other real-time system.
[01:46:22] <cradek> exactly (linux complains bitterly about those BIOSes)
[01:46:36] <cradek> linuS
[01:46:38] <SWPadnos> I had no trouble on my dual Opteron machine (installing from a SATA DVD-RW to an SATA HD)
[01:47:01] <cradek> I have also not had problems, but jepler had trouble on his laptop, jmk on his desktop
[01:47:03] <SWPadnos> I haven't been able to install Windows 2000 on that machine (even SP4), nor Gentoo
[01:47:06] <rayh> Try getting a 2.6 from HardHat or WindRiver or ...
[01:47:07] <cradek> both were fixed by twiddling apic boot flags
[01:47:21] <SWPadnos> cool
[01:47:32] <cradek> I bet the next ubuntu release will be better
[01:47:45] <cradek> I saw on their wiki they are collecting data about the apic problem and intend to come up with a fix
[01:47:58] <SWPadnos> rayh, the people you've talked to had problems with the initial install (like not getting through it, or not being able to reboot into ubuntu)?
[01:48:01] <cradek> but even now it's easy to work around
[01:48:04] <SWPadnos> yep
[01:48:30] <rayh> Hardware issues mostly.
[01:48:45] <SWPadnos> solvable, or did they just move on to BDI?
[01:49:04] <SWPadnos> (and if so, did that work?)
[01:49:13] <rayh> Went back to BDI.
[01:49:17] <rayh> Most of em.
[01:49:31] <cradek> how many people have failed and how many succeeded?
[01:49:32] <rayh> That is why I was asking about the ease of making a BDI deb.
[01:49:41] <rayh> I don't expect paul to do it any time soon.
[01:49:52] <SWPadnos> BDI4.40 is expected this summer
[01:50:00] <rayh> but I could set up a 4.38 and do the compile here.
[01:50:06] <cradek> he has also removed AXIS from his bdi because jepler wanted him to provide source
[01:50:07] <SWPadnos> according to a message on the new mailing list
[01:50:57] <rayh> Would we get conflicts in the debian directory at sf if we try to make two versions?
[01:50:59] <SWPadnos> it's probably not too difficult to make any needed changes to the .deb build info (whatever that file is called)
[01:51:15] <SWPadnos> one would be under sarge/, the other under breezy/, so probably not
[01:51:20] <cradek> rayh: sort of - you would have a few files different to build it.
[01:51:58] <cradek> rayh: it would take a couple iterations to get right, but it probably wouldn't be too hard.
[01:52:23] <cradek> rayh: do you know when people get the brown screen?
[01:52:29] <rayh> I understand. Not for right now. I'll think more about it after the release of the source.
[01:52:56] <rayh> No I don't understand enough about the system to get past their frustration.
[01:53:10] <rayh> I do have a fellow overnighting me a disk.
[01:53:32] <cradek> well write down this for next time: at the first prompt instead of just hitting enter, type 'linux noapic'
[01:53:47] <rayh> I did.
[01:53:52] <cradek> I think that would have been the only thing jmk would have had to do and it would have been perfect
[01:54:00] <SWPadnos> it's really similar to almost any other distro - except that it uses gnome by default, instead of KDE
[01:54:01] <rayh> We should build the kernel without.
[01:54:06] <cradek> I did
[01:54:13] <SWPadnos> it usually works, and it's needed on some machines
[01:54:13] <cradek> but that doesn't help the install of course
[01:54:28] <rayh> kubuntu?
[01:54:35] <SWPadnos> but probably not the ones that people would use for emc
[01:54:42] <SWPadnos> kubuntu is KDE-based by default
[01:55:10] <rayh> didn't look like it was being maintained as well as ubuntu.
[01:55:22] <cradek> I think it's much newer
[01:55:27] <cradek> haven't looked at it myself
[01:55:38] <cradek> (all desktop environments look the same to me anyway)
[01:55:43] <rayh> In the long run, I've got my money on RedHat.
[01:55:47] <SWPadnos> I installed the kubuntu packages after installing "normal" ubuntu
[01:55:52] <SWPadnos> it works fine
[01:56:06] <rayh> $5 a share to $26 right now
[01:56:15] <cradek> rayh: it's true someone could build rpms just like my recent debs
[01:56:15] <rayh> But my heart is with SuSE.
[01:56:35] <SWPadnos> I bought at $60 about 5 years ago (and almost made money)
[01:57:06] <rayh> Google at 60!
[01:57:32] <SWPadnos> that's why the tech bubble burst you know - it was my $1000 investment
[01:57:53] <SWPadnos> same with the snowless winter - I bought a snowblower
[01:58:04] <rayh> They saw you coming and timed it just after.
[01:58:13] <SWPadnos> if you need rain, let me know - I'll leave my raincoat at home
[01:58:16] <rayh> Buy those in the spring.
[01:58:22] <cradek> SWPadnos: thanks for the winter
[01:58:44] <SWPadnos> any time - but look out - when the snowblower breaks, it'll snow
[01:59:16] <cradek> SWPadnos: in about May, buy a new air conditioner please
[01:59:23] <rayh> That's the truth. Or when the neighbor's jeep is t-s up.
[01:59:31] <SWPadnos> ok - that sounds like a good idea
[01:59:39] <SWPadnos> our has been getting loud and not too cold
[01:59:50] <cradek> aha
[02:00:47] <rayh> Gotta get out of here, guys. Thanks.
[02:00:51] <SWPadnos> hmmm - BDI doesn't have udev, right?
[02:00:54] <SWPadnos> see you later
[02:01:00] <cradek> don't know
[02:01:02] <cradek> by ray
[02:01:06] <cradek> bye ray
[02:01:14] <rayh> nope no udev. it conflicts with rtai.
[02:01:26] <cradek> rayh: (I fixed that)
[02:01:27] <SWPadnos> not on ubuntu, I gather
[02:01:37] <cradek> no, all you have to do is do it right
[02:01:53] <SWPadnos> I'm just looking at all the files in emc2/debian, to see what might have to change for BDI
[02:02:16] <cradek> some I haven't checked in, because they'll be wrong for other systems
[02:02:37] <cradek> udev and gnome menu entries come to mind
[02:03:05] <SWPadnos> yep, plus the RT dir is /usr/realtime-2.6.12.6-magma
[02:03:22] <cradek> yes those dirs are different
[02:04:24] <SWPadnos> ok - and some of the dependency package names
[02:04:32] <SWPadnos> (like RTAI)
[02:04:36] <cradek> right
[02:04:49] <SWPadnos> and not much else, it seems
[02:05:04] <cradek> probably not much else. Like I said it'll take a few tries.
[02:05:31] <SWPadnos> well - I may take a stab at it, or I can test any changes you suggest
[02:05:45] <SWPadnos> though I'm on BDI4.30 right now, not 4.38
[02:06:08] <cradek> I think ray still suggests people use 4.30
[02:06:15] <cradek> I don't suggest
[02:06:25] <cradek> so I have no idea what deb we'd build if we decide to do one.
[02:06:30] <SWPadnos> yep, but I think it's due to the differences in installed packages
[02:06:37] <cradek> * cradek shrugs
[02:06:45] <SWPadnos> not necessarily issues with 4.38
[02:07:44] <SWPadnos> in theory, if I replace the sources file with the one line for these packages, and then install all necessary packages (emc, rati, kernel ...), it should work anyway
[02:07:50] <SWPadnos> as you said - use them all as a set
[02:08:53] <SWPadnos> hmmm - you know, we could just transfer the linuxcnc.org domain to my dreamhost account
[02:09:15] <SWPadnos> I don't think it'll go over the transfer limit, and there would be no cost (until I need the bandwidth, which will probably be a while)
[02:09:17] <cradek> that's an interesting thought
[02:10:21] <SWPadnos> I can add unlimited user accounts, email addresses, etc
[02:10:32] <SWPadnos> there's also CVS/SVN support, and phpbb forums
[02:10:34] <cradek> I'm tempted to take you up on the offer to host my packages
[02:10:35] <SWPadnos> etc etc
[02:11:05] <cradek> hi jmk!
[02:11:06] <SWPadnos> do you have transfer stats for them?
[02:11:09] <SWPadnos> hi jmk
[02:11:10] <cradek> you missed ray by 10 minutes
[02:11:15] <jmkasunich> hi
[02:11:25] <cradek> SWPadnos: I don't understand the question
[02:11:59] <cradek> jmkasunich: google says you can put "linux noapic" at the initial ubuntu install boot prompt to fix the problems you had
[02:12:00] <jmkasunich> is that "ray wanted to talk to me" (or "ray was talking about things that would interest me", or just "ray was here, now he's not"?
[02:12:11] <cradek> the middle one probably
[02:12:19] <cradek> we talked about packaging some
[02:12:29] <jmkasunich> logger_devel: bookmark
[02:12:29] <jmkasunich> See
http://solaris.cs.utt.ro/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emcdevel/2006-02-10#T02-12-29
[02:12:33] <SWPadnos> I go for door number three :)
[02:13:04] <SWPadnos> cradek, I was wondering how much bandwidth has been used by people downloading the packages
[02:13:06] <SWPadnos> axis even
[02:13:14] <SWPadnos> (like the CVS tarballs and stuff)
[02:13:28] <cradek> SWPadnos: we would have to ask jepler about that
[02:13:34] <cradek> SWPadnos: I'm only taking about the debs though
[02:14:08] <cradek> the ones that are at dsplabs...ro
[02:14:15] <SWPadnos> ok - I can ask alex
[02:14:35] <cradek> very few people are using the so far - the data would not be useful
[02:14:41] <SWPadnos> true
[02:15:25] <cradek> theM
[02:15:40] <SWPadnos> yO bOyZ!
[02:15:52] <cradek> this laptop kb is awful
[02:16:06] <SWPadnos> I can't stand them - I actually carry a full size ketyboard when I travel
[02:16:15] <SWPadnos> and I have a big laptop with a relatively nice keyboard
[02:16:40] <cradek> I only like my IBM Model M - not appropriate for a coffee shop
[02:16:56] <SWPadnos> heh - much smaller than my 8500DV, I think
[02:17:21] <cradek> I mean my full-size keyboard is the IBM
[02:17:35] <cradek> but way too loud to use in a public place
[02:17:37] <SWPadnos> ah - the old clicky keyboard with the 15-foot cord ;)
[02:17:42] <cradek> yeah that one
[02:17:58] <SWPadnos> it has an interesting feature that my wife needed for her grad school
[02:18:07] <cradek> I have a stash of them, but I don't need it because they never break
[02:18:13] <SWPadnos> it properly registers 6 keys being pressed at once
[02:18:16] <cradek> what's that?
[02:18:18] <cradek> haha
[02:18:22] <cradek> I'm not surprised
[02:18:24] <SWPadnos> very good for brailling
[02:18:59] <SWPadnos> most modern keyboards don't work, including my personal favorite, the Keytronic EO3600QLPS2
[02:19:01] <cradek> I have never understood why braille isn't typed on a normal keyboard
[02:19:16] <cradek> I guess some braille chars mean more than one letter (th)
[02:19:20] <cradek> (I think)
[02:19:24] <SWPadnos> yep
[02:19:31] <SWPadnos> position dependent as well
[02:19:41] <cradek> have not worked with braille for a long time
[02:20:09] <SWPadnos> just on the drive-up ATMs ;)
[02:21:08] <cradek> funny
[02:21:18] <cradek> jmkasunich: so how are things?
[02:22:13] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich worked late
[02:22:21] <jmkasunich> and now he's reading back in the log
[02:22:30] <cradek> you too, alex said he worked from 0900 to 2130
[02:22:41] <jmkasunich> ray's not so hot on ubuntu is he?
[02:23:06] <cradek> I can't tell
[02:23:19] <cradek> he seems negative about it, maybe because of problems, but he won't say in detail what the problems are
[02:23:25] <SWPadnos> he doesn't have it, and he's only heard problems
[02:23:40] <jmkasunich> that makes it hard
[02:23:43] <cradek> yeah
[02:23:54] <jmkasunich> why does he care at this point - its an experiment that you are trying
[02:23:56] <cradek> I sure don't know who is having the problems and calling ray
[02:24:07] <SWPadnos> yeah - that is a puzzle
[02:24:27] <cradek> I'll help if I can, but I don't have the information to do it.
[02:24:39] <cradek> maybe in a few days it will be different
[02:24:41] <jmkasunich> yeah, if you aren't willing to fumble thru (or contact the author, cradek), don't try it
[02:24:51] <jmkasunich> I guess people think Ray is all things emc
[02:24:53] <cradek> well I NEED the bug reports
[02:25:02] <cradek> but only good ones :-)
[02:25:17] <SWPadnos> hey - there's a bug
[02:25:19] <cradek> jmkasunich: we found several things the other night, and I think they are fixed now
[02:25:22] <SWPadnos> (how's that)
[02:25:34] <jmkasunich> which reminds me.
[02:25:41] <jmkasunich> there are four available updates
[02:25:43] <cradek> SWPadnos: no, "there's a bug and I'm really frustrated"
[02:25:46] <jmkasunich> emc, emc-axis, and two kernel
[02:25:52] <cradek> jmkasunich: right
[02:25:55] <jmkasunich> I assume you'd like me to load them?
[02:26:01] <cradek> jmkasunich: yes please
[02:26:09] <cradek> jmkasunich: there should be a rtai update too
[02:26:35] <jmkasunich> nope,
[02:26:41] <cradek> hmm
[02:26:52] <jmkasunich> linux-headers-2.6.12-magma ver cjr9
[02:27:04] <cradek> everything should be cjr10 I think
[02:27:09] <cradek> try apt-get update
[02:27:10] <jmkasunich> linux-image-2.6.12-magma ver cjr9
[02:27:40] <cradek> it only runs once a day I think
[02:28:32] <jmkasunich> got them now
[02:28:44] <jmkasunich> strange tho, apt-get update doesn't work
[02:28:51] <cradek> howso?
[02:28:55] <jmkasunich> E: Could not open lock file /var/lib/apt/lists/lock - open (13 Permission denied)
[02:28:55] <jmkasunich> E: Unable to lock the list directory
[02:28:55] <jmkasunich> j
[02:28:58] <cradek> sudo
[02:29:01] <jmkasunich> duh
[02:29:14] <jmkasunich> better
[02:29:17] <cradek> kernel, rtai should be cjr10
[02:29:24] <cradek> emc2 and emc2-dev alpha17
[02:29:35] <cradek> emc2-axis 1.2a1-0.3
[02:29:56] <jmkasunich> got cjr10, and emc2 alpha17
[02:29:58] <jmkasunich> no -dev
[02:30:01] <cradek> jmkasunich: you should be able to remove your noapic kernel flag
[02:30:09] <cradek> maybe you have not installed emc2-dev
[02:30:16] <jmkasunich> could be
[02:30:32] <jmkasunich> is there a menu item for snaptic on ubuntu?
[02:30:37] <cradek> yes
[02:30:42] <jmkasunich> where?
[02:30:43] <cradek> system/something/synapti
[02:30:45] <cradek> c
[02:30:55] <cradek> (not at my machine)
[02:31:18] <SWPadnos> under system / package management
[02:31:21] <SWPadnos> or something like that
[02:31:26] <SWPadnos> not the applications menu
[02:31:29] <cradek> system/admin/synaptic maybe
[02:31:43] <cradek> yeah that's it
[02:31:47] <SWPadnos> or maybe I added that to the menu :)
[02:32:03] <SWPadnos> I just dragged it to the top panel
[02:32:04] <jmkasunich> swp: I think you must have added it
[02:32:09] <jmkasunich> nothing like that here
[02:32:20] <jepler> or Applications > Add Applications, then choose "Advanced" from the menu
[02:32:25] <SWPadnos> hmmm - it has a pretty icon and everything
[02:32:26] <jmkasunich> there is a system tools menu, but under it, no admin, and no synaptic
[02:32:35] <cradek> no admin??
[02:32:41] <SWPadnos> Package Management, not Synaptic
[02:32:52] <cradek> the second thing on the menu? Administration?
[02:33:22] <jmkasunich> there is a "System Tools" menu, no administration on it
[02:33:27] <jmkasunich> 2nd item is bug reporter
[02:34:03] <SWPadnos> system tools is next to the menu that has "logout" on it, right?
[02:34:33] <jmkasunich> EBKAC
[02:34:51] <cradek> hahahahahaha
[02:35:00] <SWPadnos> heh
[02:35:02] <jmkasunich> there are three main menus, I was looking under System Tools in the first menu
[02:35:39] <cradek> god some users
[02:35:50] <jmkasunich> thats why I use the cmd line
[02:35:52] <SWPadnos> heh - and I see that all of the items I named were wrong :)
[02:35:54] <jmkasunich> no ambiguity
[02:36:20] <SWPadnos> except for stuff like "is that -p or -P"
[02:36:27] <SWPadnos> or -pP
[02:36:43] <jmkasunich> -p or -P works fine in email or IRC
[02:37:29] <SWPadnos> I do wonder why ubuntu still uses firefox 1.07 instead of 1.5
[02:37:31] <jmkasunich> ok, the kernel image install is asking me about a conflict with a pre-existing dir of the same name
[02:37:48] <cradek> jmkasunich: tell it to go ahead (I think the right answer is n)
[02:38:00] <jmkasunich> right, it asks if I want to stop
[02:38:05] <cradek> right, n
[02:38:14] <cradek> (which is stupid)
[02:38:55] <jmkasunich> not if they really really want you to stop, and expect people to reflexivly hit Y without reading ;-)
[02:39:32] <jmkasunich> some wild messages on the kernel image install
[02:39:45] <cradek> the YOU MUST REBOOT thing?
[02:39:49] <jmkasunich> yeah
[02:39:54] <cradek> yeah that's normal too
[02:39:57] <SWPadnos> THEN REBOOT ALREADY!
[02:40:01] <jmkasunich> I hate linux GUIs
[02:40:05] <cradek> I can avoid those by changing the kernel versions
[02:40:12] <cradek> but then the grub menu will fill up with crap
[02:40:25] <jmkasunich> I tried to copy one of the messages from the terminal window
[02:40:29] <cradek> I hope to hash out the kernel issues before many users have it
[02:40:29] <jmkasunich> but instead aborted the install
[02:40:40] <SWPadnos> ctrl-c?
[02:40:52] <jmkasunich> fscking ctrl-C should mean copy, or sig-intr, but not both at random!@
[02:41:06] <cradek> I disagree, it should mean INTR always
[02:41:07] <SWPadnos> all you have to do is amrk, then middle-click
[02:41:12] <SWPadnos> mark
[02:41:36] <cradek> the installs are idempotent so you just have to run it again
[02:41:39] <jmkasunich> ctrl-c/ctrl-v are commonly known (more so than middle click) and work often enough that when the don't it pisses people off
[02:41:59] <cradek> yeah they mean intr and page-down
[02:41:59] <jmkasunich> idempotent? thats a $0.50 word for sure
[02:42:03] <cradek> :-)
[02:42:04] <SWPadnos> I agree that it's weird, but expected in a terminal
[02:42:32] <SWPadnos> (it's the fact that the terminal is in a GUI that makes it cofusing :) )
[02:42:38] <SWPadnos> argh
[02:42:54] <cradek> terminals use emacs keys, apps nowadays use windows keys, to make it equally confusing for everybody
[02:43:17] <SWPadnos> if only we could go back to the wrodstar (and turbo C) days
[02:43:20] <SWPadnos> gah
[02:43:22] <SWPadnos> wordstar
[02:43:31] <SWPadnos> ctrl-K ctrl-K
[02:43:51] <cradek> jmkasunich: I learned that word reading the debian policy guide
[02:44:18] <jmkasunich> I just got used to using the edit/paste menu in ksirc, because ctrl-v only works sometimes there
[02:44:27] <jmkasunich> now in xchat there is no edit/paste
[02:44:37] <jmkasunich> so its back to ctrl-v
[02:45:08] <jmkasunich> I just hate change, thats all
[02:45:24] <SWPadnos> no emc2 for you - you have to keep emc(1)
[02:45:32] <jmkasunich> lol
[02:45:47] <SWPadnos> but first, you have to write a punched-tape driver for it
[02:45:59] <jmkasunich> fsck that
[02:46:08] <cradek> that's easy, my punch just plugs into the serial port
[02:46:35] <SWPadnos> does it use RTS/CTS to pause the tape?
[02:46:51] <cradek> how much pausing do you need at 110 baud?
[02:46:55] <SWPadnos> heh
[02:46:58] <jmkasunich> hmm, the terminal window says "setting up emc2-axis (1.2a1-0.3) ...
[02:47:00] <jmkasunich> then nothing
[02:47:07] <SWPadnos> how many bytes do you need for a 1 minute move
[02:47:11] <jmkasunich> a message outside the terminal says its all done tho
[02:47:13] <cradek> is it done? look above
[02:47:20] <cradek> yeah it's done then
[02:47:46] <jmkasunich> would be less confusing if the emc-axis install printed _something_
[02:48:03] <cradek> packages typically don't print much
[02:48:07] <SWPadnos> normally you'd get a command prompt and know it's done
[02:48:08] <jmkasunich> I know some packages print a dictionary, some don't print much
[02:48:10] <cradek> if it's in a real terminal, you get a prompt
[02:48:31] <jmkasunich> well anyway, its done
[02:48:31] <cradek> it would be nice if they had an "all done" message in their debug terminal
[02:48:36] <cradek> yay
[02:48:41] <jmkasunich> so time to reboot
[02:48:43] <cradek> be sure to reboot before you run emc
[02:48:44] <jmkasunich> bye!
[02:48:46] <cradek> bye
[02:48:49] <cradek> hey
[02:48:50] <SWPadnos> yep, though you can check the "close on successful completion" checkbox
[02:48:55] <jmkasunich> not yet
[02:48:57] <cradek> don't forget you can remove your noapic flag
[02:48:59] <jmkasunich> gotta remove the noapic
[02:49:02] <SWPadnos> heh
[02:49:08] <cradek> it probably did it for you :-/
[02:49:48] <jmkasunich> yeah, and it put in the damned splash too
[02:50:02] <jmkasunich> I hate bootsplash
[02:50:09] <jmkasunich> I want to see the gears turning
[02:50:18] <jmkasunich> not the chrome
[02:50:50] <SWPadnos> you should get some chrome gears with the graphical startup
[02:51:02] <jmkasunich> :-P
[02:51:20] <SWPadnos> at leasst I get a half-screen of messages (starting netwrorking [ok]), and the kubuntu logo above
[02:51:31] <SWPadnos> not hte full boot messages though
[02:51:38] <SWPadnos> I need to lkearn to type
[02:51:40] <SWPadnos> see
[02:52:19] <cradek> jmkasunich: you can change the automagic defaults
[02:52:24] <jmkasunich> doing that now
[02:52:29] <jmkasunich> nonaltoptions=
[02:52:30] <cradek> jmkasunich: there are instructions in menu.lst
[02:52:59] <jmkasunich> I'm less than fond of that automagic stuff
[02:53:06] <jmkasunich> comments that aren't, thats just wrong
[02:53:07] <cradek> jmkasunich: you get to see the new axis feature, colored backplot
[02:53:19] <cradek> yeah having magic comments is total crap
[02:53:26] <SWPadnos> oooh - G0/G1/G2/G3 are different colors now?
[02:53:29] <cradek> yes
[02:53:32] <SWPadnos> cool!
[02:53:48] <SWPadnos> is that in the latest tarball?
[02:53:51] <cradek> yes
[02:54:01] <SWPadnos> when was it added?
[02:54:03] <cradek> that info is passed out of the TP into the stat buffer now
[02:54:03] <jmkasunich> rebooting
[02:54:25] <cradek> SWPadnos: I did the emc part a while back, but the AXIS part only a couple days ago
[02:55:08] <SWPadnos> ok - I've got 20060204, so I probably need an update
[02:55:52] <jepler> looks like it went in on 0206
[02:56:08] <cradek> sometimes it's a fast-moving target
[02:56:13] <SWPadnos> ok - I didn't rememner seeing it
[02:56:26] <SWPadnos> r e m e m b e r
[02:56:54] <jepler> do you read our changelogs?
[02:56:59] <jepler> I don't think it got any fanfare
[02:57:08] <SWPadnos> only when prompted on IRC
[02:57:51] <SWPadnos> by the way - what kind of bandwidth / transfer stats do you have for the axis stuff?
[02:58:02] <jmkasunich> well the kernel seems to work
[02:58:18] <cradek> great
[02:58:25] <cradek> without special flags?
[02:58:34] <jepler> SWPadnos: the axis website is just on my home dsl
[02:58:40] <jmkasunich> no special flags
[02:58:41] <jepler> SWPadnos: it's only a few hundred megs a month, if that
[02:58:44] <SWPadnos> ok
[02:58:50] <SWPadnos> what's your upload speed?
[02:58:54] <jepler> 384kbps
[02:59:05] <SWPadnos> ok
[02:59:15] <jmkasunich> green is rapid, red is cutting... nice
[02:59:23] <jepler> SWPadnos:
http://unpy.net/usage_axis/usage_200601.html
[02:59:51] <SWPadnos> 850M - thanks
[03:00:00] <jepler> SWPadnos: I actually looked into moving to hosting, but the python CGI scripts I use to generate the pages are so slow on a shared machine that it was a step backwards
[03:00:27] <SWPadnos> ah. I was thinking of just mirroring things on my dreamhost account
[03:00:39] <SWPadnos> we can add / move domains there if desired as well
[03:00:48] <jepler> it was actually dreamhost that I was using
[03:00:50] <jmkasunich> you know what really sold me on your kernel? the fact that time measurement works1
[03:01:04] <SWPadnos> I don't need the bandwidth for a while, and I get 1.8TB/month
[03:01:20] <jepler> yeah, they sure have plenty of bandwidth and are pretty generous with the disk space too
[03:01:28] <SWPadnos> yep
[03:02:00] <SWPadnos> and it keeps going up, at no charge
[03:02:47] <SWPadnos> I like the shell access as well (plus CVS, SVN, and other good stuff)
[03:02:52] <cradek> jmkasunich: does it still work?
[03:03:24] <cradek> jmkasunich: btw arcs are a different color too
[03:07:08] <SWPadnos> hmmm. it appears that I can't have the same version of axis working with more than one emc2 install (rip, actually)
[03:07:32] <jepler> SWPadnos: you get an error?
[03:07:48] <jepler> SWPadnos: if they're different versions of axis, it might lead to trouble
[03:07:56] <SWPadnos> well - I did, and I ignored it because I was about to download a neew version anyway
[03:08:00] <SWPadnos> one sec
[03:08:26] <jepler> emc2-axis deb plus axis for rip emc2 are probably trouble
[03:08:44] <SWPadnos> ok - just the standard "can't execute DISPLAY program - I may have done a make clean and not rebuilt axis again
[03:08:59] <SWPadnos> this is rip only, no installed emc2
[03:09:05] <cradek> yeah make clean removes bin/* which is terrible
[03:09:16] <SWPadnos> ok - that's the problem - nevermind
[03:09:20] <jepler> oh yeah, there is that emc2 .. feature
[03:09:26] <SWPadnos> I was testing the halconfig changes and I'm sure I did make clean
[03:12:16] <SWPadnos> hmmm - should the backplot get cleared automatically when you load a new file?
[03:12:32] <jmkasunich> cradek: yes, still working (was reading mail)
[03:12:53] <jmkasunich> I guess 3dchips has no arcs, I only saw green (rapids) and red (cutting)
[03:13:01] <cradek> yeah cds has some
[03:13:14] <cradek> but you can take my word for it I bet
[03:13:31] <jmkasunich> yep
[03:13:32] <SWPadnos> I just noticed that, and loaded cds, which prompted my backplot question :)
[03:13:47] <jmkasunich> 04 s32 RW 9671 ddt.0.tmax
[03:13:47] <jmkasunich> 04 s32 RW 9883 ddt.1.tmax
[03:13:47] <jmkasunich> 04 s32 RW 9005 ddt.2.tmax
[03:13:47] <jmkasunich> 04 s32 RW 9053 ddt.3.tmax
[03:13:47] <jmkasunich> 04 s32 RW 12068 ddt.4.tmax
[03:13:48] <jmkasunich> 04 s32 RW 9199 ddt.5.tmax
[03:13:48] <cradek> what question?
[03:13:50] <jmkasunich> 02 s32 RW 27300 motion-command-handler.tmax
[03:13:52] <jmkasunich> 02 s32 RW 56521 motion-controller.tmax
[03:14:00] <SWPadnos> hmmm - should the backplot get cleared automatically when you load a new file?
[03:14:02] <jmkasunich> 56 us to run the motion controller code, not bad
[03:14:45] <SWPadnos> can you try stepgen?
[03:14:47] <jmkasunich> (thats the max during the entire run of chips, average seems more like 12-14uS
[03:15:08] <jmkasunich> I'll try the stepper now
[03:15:12] <cradek> so you do get good timing info still
[03:15:14] <cradek> that's great
[03:15:32] <jmkasunich> that alone will move me personally off of BDI
[03:15:45] <jmkasunich> the timing is busted on pauls kernels
[03:15:52] <SWPadnos> I'm curious as to why there's been a recent rash of people not being able to get reasonable BASE_PERIOD settings to work
[03:16:13] <cradek> SWPadnos: since there is no testsuite on bdi, it's impossible to tell what's up
[03:16:16] <SWPadnos> (if that's been their problems)
[03:16:20] <SWPadnos> true enough
[03:16:32] <jmkasunich> and since the timing doesn't work, you can't check that
[03:16:47] <SWPadnos> right - that's why I asked ;)
[03:17:12] <jmkasunich> damn, joint 2 following error
[03:17:32] <cradek> jmkasunich: so for my kernel, can you do the missed deadline checks?
[03:17:33] <SWPadnos> ok - that's what Gene was getting
[03:17:46] <jmkasunich> yes, I think
[03:18:09] <cradek> jmkasunich: on what program?
[03:18:16] <jmkasunich> 3dchips
[03:18:30] <cradek> is it the initial g0->g1 move at the beginning?
[03:18:33] <SWPadnos> just as a foot was starting?
[03:18:46] <jmkasunich> didn't have backplot on
[03:19:00] <jmkasunich> the code window has line N100 highlighted
[03:19:14] <jmkasunich> but is that the readahead spot?
[03:19:32] <cradek> no, that's the running line +-1
[03:19:59] <SWPadnos> incidentally, I have to comment out line N50 to get axis to run the file
[03:20:09] <cradek> what's N50?
[03:20:10] <SWPadnos> tkemc works though
[03:20:18] <jmkasunich> sim-axis ran it fine here
[03:20:19] <SWPadnos> N50T1M6
[03:20:39] <cradek> did you get an error?
[03:20:40] <SWPadnos> I'll check that again, just to be sure
[03:20:56] <SWPadnos> no, it just doesn't run past that line - not crashed, but hung
[03:21:10] <jmkasunich> where are the installed ini files? I want to check the accel limits in stepper.ini
[03:21:15] <cradek> hung exactly how?
[03:21:20] <cradek> jmkasunich: /etc/emc2
[03:22:04] <SWPadnos> one sec
[03:23:03] <SWPadnos> ok - no hilighted line, no tool motion, manual controls are grayed as normal
[03:23:34] <SWPadnos> pause / play / stop buttons work as expected, and I can move the backplot around
[03:23:43] <jmkasunich> hmm, second attempt to run 3dchips had no ferror
[03:23:45] <cradek> anything on stdout?
[03:23:50] <SWPadnos> but play and continue have no effect - it just doesn't run
[03:24:21] <cradek> jmkasunich: that's a problem alex has also seen
[03:24:32] <SWPadnos> the comments are output, then nothing until I press stop, when I get "EMC_TOOL_ABORT"
[03:24:35] <jmkasunich> I have a theory
[03:24:36] <cradek> jmkasunich: bad blend probably
[03:25:13] <jmkasunich> direction reversal at rapid
[03:25:14] <cradek> jmkasunich: what's your theory?
[03:25:36] <cradek> but at N100->N110 there is no reversal
[03:25:41] <cradek> colinear g0->g1
[03:25:44] <jmkasunich> line 80 is the first move, no Z component
[03:25:49] <jmkasunich> line 90 goes to Z10
[03:25:57] <jmkasunich> line 100 goes to Z-56
[03:26:01] <cradek> that's true
[03:26:08] <jmkasunich> it starts at Z0
[03:26:15] <jmkasunich> so 90 goes up, and 100 reverses
[03:26:16] <cradek> what was your z coord when it ferrored?
[03:26:22] <jmkasunich> 9.2
[03:26:23] <cradek> that would tell us which blend
[03:26:27] <jmkasunich> just beginning the down
[03:26:32] <cradek> ah
[03:26:33] <SWPadnos> or about to
[03:26:41] <cradek> yeah it could have been going up still
[03:26:45] <jmkasunich> if I reload and restart, it is OK, because the +10 move doesn't happen
[03:26:51] <jmkasunich> gonna scope it now
[03:27:15] <SWPadnos> this works with univstep, so I'd have to suspect stepgen
[03:27:34] <jmkasunich> probably the config (not enough headroom or something)
[03:27:51] <jmkasunich> but could be stepgen's "pretuned" position loop isn't
[03:28:02] <SWPadnos> I think the default is 20 / 21 for accel, and 1.2/1.2 5 for vel
[03:28:10] <SWPadnos> 1.2/1.25
[03:28:15] <jmkasunich> 20/21, and 1.2/1.4
[03:28:16] <jepler> I had problems similar to this with my etch-a-sketch. They started happening consistently when I turned on backlash compensation
[03:28:35] <SWPadnos> right
[03:28:38] <jepler> in halscope the accels and velocities during backlash compensation (after a reversal) were crazy, way out of bounds
[03:28:51] <jepler> I don't have any screenshots, unfortunately.
[03:29:07] <SWPadnos> here's an ascii art screenshot:
[03:29:14] <SWPadnos> ___/|
[03:29:30] <SWPadnos> something like that?
[03:30:13] <jepler> If I recall correctly, the accel spiked to +large then -large, and there were "impulses" on the acceleration graphs: ______|______
[03:30:24] <SWPadnos> ah
[03:31:09] <jepler> I think this only happened when I entered nonzero numbers for backlash
[03:31:17] <jmkasunich> backlash has issues
[03:31:23] <jmkasunich> no accel is applied, for one
[03:32:32] <jmkasunich> the ferror is occurring as Z reverses from rapid up to rapid down
[03:32:34] <cradek> I think backlash could be done before canon - add a "segment" and let TP plan it
[03:32:46] <jmkasunich> eww
[03:32:52] <cradek> haha
[03:32:57] <cradek> let's not worry about that now
[03:33:02] <jmkasunich> good
[03:33:03] <SWPadnos> just preprocess the whole file
[03:33:17] <jmkasunich> later I can explain why I don't think backlash should be in canon
[03:33:30] <SWPadnos> backlash shouldn't be in the machine at all, but oh well :)
[03:33:46] <cradek> let's pretend I didn't say anything about that
[03:33:55] <SWPadnos> the backlash is killing you
[03:34:05] <cradek> ack
[03:34:21] <cradek> jmkasunich: is the rapid reverse problem in tp or stepgen?
[03:34:26] <jmkasunich> SWP: I think it was you that fixed the offset entry box in halscope
[03:34:35] <SWPadnos> heh - my wife's cell phone decided to flip the outside display vertically - I almost thought it was back to normal because the time was 10:33
[03:34:36] <jmkasunich> thank you, thank you, its so much nicer now
[03:34:48] <SWPadnos> no - you did it while we were on irc
[03:34:51] <jmkasunich> cradek, looking now
[03:34:52] <SWPadnos> so thank you instead
[03:35:04] <jmkasunich> well you splained it to me, or something
[03:35:09] <SWPadnos> something like that
[03:35:29] <SWPadnos> I think you found the fix while I was looking for the problem ;)
[03:35:42] <jmkasunich> darn, wish I had the ddt blocks in this config
[03:35:50] <jmkasunich> maybe I'll add them
[03:35:56] <cradek> yeah those are nice
[03:36:04] <jmkasunich> reading velocity off the scope screen isn't hard, but accel gets tricky
[03:36:16] <jmkasunich> actually.. this isnt that tricky
[03:36:58] <jmkasunich> prior to the fault, vel is ~0.022" in 20mS
[03:37:16] <jmkasunich> maybe that 0.024, which would be 1.2ips
[03:37:19] <cradek> is that commanded vel?
[03:37:22] <jmkasunich> yes
[03:37:35] <jmkasunich> (and fb as well, its tracking well at that point)
[03:37:51] <jmkasunich> then vel goes to zero in about 20mS
[03:37:56] <cradek> I hope it's not the tp I hope it's not the tp
[03:38:20] <jmkasunich> accel limit is 20 ips/s
[03:38:32] <jmkasunich> so 1.2ips should take about 60mS
[03:38:43] <cradek> ouch
[03:38:49] <jmkasunich> if I'm doing the math right
[03:39:07] <cradek> do comand/fb split wildly there?
[03:39:11] <cradek> m
[03:39:12] <jmkasunich> yeah
[03:39:28] <jmkasunich> you guys know any convenient place to post a screenshot?
[03:39:40] <cradek> do you have debug output that you can check for the last SET_VEL message?
[03:39:45] <cradek> err SET_ACCEL
[03:40:00] <jmkasunich> I ran it from the icon, so no debug output
[03:40:06] <cradek> darn
[03:40:12] <jmkasunich> but I could run it again
[03:40:16] <cradek> it might be in your ~/.xsession-errors
[03:40:26] <jmkasunich> pastebin is only for text, right?
[03:40:31] <jmkasunich> (want to post the scope pic)
[03:40:41] <cradek> dcc it to me, I'll post it
[03:41:20] <jmkasunich> hmm, that nice "take screenshot" command grabs the whole screen, not a window
[03:41:26] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich maximizes scope ;-)
[03:41:33] <cradek> haha
[03:41:40] <cradek> there's a key for taking a snap of a window too
[03:41:52] <cradek> you might have to set it in system/preferences/key shortcuts
[03:42:30] <jmkasunich> cool, thanks
[03:42:45] <jmkasunich> (you didn't really want a 1600x1200, did you)
[03:42:51] <cradek> nope
[03:43:02] <jmkasunich> now I just have to figgure out this dcc stuff
[03:43:04] <cradek> I have 3200x1200 at home, 640x480 here
[03:43:39] <SWPadnos> "/dcc-send cradek"
[03:43:45] <cradek> I think ou can rightclick on me, "send file"
[03:43:45] <cradek> y
[03:43:48] <SWPadnos> you should get a file dialog
[03:44:14] <SWPadnos> hmmm - chatzilla doesn't do that. I should file a feature request
[03:44:34] <jmkasunich> did you get the offer?
[03:44:46] <cradek> yes, but something on your end is blocking the transfer
[03:44:50] <cradek> nat/firewall?
[03:45:01] <jmkasunich> could be, I have a NAT router
[03:45:11] <cradek> yeah you have to jump through hoops for dcc with nat
[03:45:21] <SWPadnos> strange - I didn't
[03:45:28] <jmkasunich> ok, I think the hoops for putting it on my own web space may be lower
[03:45:31] <cradek> your system tells mine "contact me on port xyz to get this file"
[03:45:41] <jmkasunich> just have to remember an obscure URL
[03:45:49] <cradek> but port xyz doesn't get back to your machine
[03:48:11] <jmkasunich> http://home.att.net/~jmkasunich/Pics/Screenshot-HAL_Oscilliscope.png
[03:48:30] <jmkasunich> green is commanded pos, red is feedback, both at 0.020"/div
[03:49:05] <jmkasunich> other red is following error at 0.005" / div
[03:49:58] <jmkasunich> I need to add cursors to the scope
[03:50:09] <cradek> ah I see it now
[03:50:48] <jmkasunich> green stops and actually starts going back down a tiny bit, while red is still decelling
[03:51:07] <SWPadnos> one day I'll fix that spelling error ;)
[03:51:09] <cradek> yeah the red is way behind
[03:51:13] <jmkasunich> if I did the math right, red is correct and green deceled at 60 ips/s
[03:51:44] <cradek> did you check your .xsession-errors
[03:51:56] <cradek> I would like to verify the SET_ACCEL
[03:52:35] <cradek> damn some people don't know how loud they are when talking about private things in public
[03:52:43] <jmkasunich> ?
[03:52:49] <cradek> I'm at a coffee shop
[03:53:02] <cradek> and I'm learning a whole history of this couple behind me
[03:53:14] <jmkasunich> crapload of gnome-cups-icon warnings and stuff, emc messages are lost in the noise
[03:53:33] <cradek> darn
[03:53:49] <jmkasunich> grep says no ACCEL in there
[03:54:02] <jmkasunich> no SET for that matter
[03:54:09] <jmkasunich> bet debug is set low
[03:54:11] <cradek> you must not have that much debug on
[03:54:26] <jmkasunich> ok, I'm gonna change debug and start from a terminal
[03:55:18] <jmkasunich> yeah, debug was 1
[03:55:29] <jmkasunich> should I go full blast, 7FFFFFFFF
[03:55:38] <cradek> that's probably good for the debs, since you don't want to fill up logs
[03:55:41] <cradek> yeah go all aout
[03:55:47] <cradek> out
[03:56:09] <cradek> some time I should figure out what debug gives just the canon commands
[03:56:12] <cradek> that's usually what I want
[03:56:43] <jmkasunich> damn, I should have done tee or something
[03:56:49] <jmkasunich> wanna be able to grep the output
[03:59:47] <jmkasunich> john@ke-main-ubuntu:~$ cat log1 | grep SET
[03:59:47] <jmkasunich> Issuing EMC_TRAJ_SET_SCALE -- (+209,+20, +1,1.000000,)
[03:59:47] <jmkasunich> Issuing EMC_TASK_SET_MODE -- (+504,+16, +2, +2,)
[03:59:47] <jmkasunich> Issuing EMC_TASK_SET_STATE -- (+505,+16, +5, +2,)
[03:59:47] <jmkasunich> Issuing EMC_TASK_SET_STATE -- (+505,+16, +6, +4,)
[03:59:48] <jmkasunich> Issuing EMC_TRAJ_SET_VELOCITY -- (+205,+28, +0,1.650446,1.650446,)
[03:59:50] <jmkasunich> Issuing EMC_TRAJ_SET_ACCELERATION -- (+206,+20, +0,20.000000,)
[03:59:51] <cradek> are the Z and TRAJ accels the same in this config?
[03:59:52] <jmkasunich> Issuing EMC_TRAJ_SET_VELOCITY -- (+205,+28, +0,1.200000,1.200000,)
[03:59:54] <jmkasunich> I
[03:59:56] <jmkasunich> those are the first few
[04:00:00] <jmkasunich> (only set accel)
[04:00:01] <cradek> ok there's the 20
[04:00:08] <jmkasunich> lemme check
[04:00:50] <jmkasunich> traj: default 15, max 20
[04:00:53] <jmkasunich> axis: max 20
[04:00:57] <cradek> ok
[04:01:17] <cradek> wait is there no SET_ACCEL before the first move?
[04:01:17] <jmkasunich> velocity: traj and axis max vel both 1.2
[04:01:37] <cradek> wouldn't that be something
[04:01:55] <jmkasunich> the first move is x and y tho
[04:02:02] <jmkasunich> the grep probably hits things
[04:02:10] <jmkasunich> lemme grep for "Issuing"
[04:03:04] <jmkasunich> john@ke-main-ubuntu:~$ cat log1 | grep Issuing
[04:03:04] <jmkasunich> Issuing EMC_TRAJ_SET_SCALE -- (+209,+20, +1,1.000000,)
[04:03:04] <jmkasunich> Issuing EMC_TASK_SET_MODE -- (+504,+16, +2, +2,)
[04:03:04] <jmkasunich> Issuing EMC_TASK_ABORT -- (+503,+12, +3,)
[04:03:04] <jmkasunich> Issuing EMC_TASK_PLAN_OPEN -- (+506,+268, +4,/usr/share/emc/ncfiles/3D_Chips.ngc,)
[04:03:06] <jmkasunich> Issuing EMC_TASK_SET_STATE -- (+505,+16, +5, +2,)
[04:03:08] <jmkasunich> Issuing EMC_TASK_PLAN_SYNCH -- (+516,+12, +0,)
[04:03:10] <jmkasunich> Issuing EMC_TASK_SET_STATE -- (+505,+16, +6, +4,)
[04:03:12] <jmkasunich> Issuing EMC_TASK_PLAN_RUN -- (+507,+16, +7, +0,)
[04:03:14] <jmkasunich> Issuing EMC_TOOL_PREPARE -- (+1104,+16, +0, +1,)
[04:03:16] <jmkasunich> Issuing EMC_TOOL_LOAD -- (+1105,+12, +0,)
[04:03:18] <jmkasunich> Issuing EMC_COOLANT_FLOOD_ON -- (+1406,+12, +0,)
[04:03:20] <jmkasunich> Issuing EMC_SPINDLE_ON -- (+1304,+20, +0,1600.000000,)
[04:03:22] <jmkasunich> Issuing EMC_TRAJ_SET_VELOCITY -- (+205,+28, +0,1.650446,1.650446,)
[04:03:24] <jmkasunich> Issuing EMC_TRAJ_SET_ACCELERATION -- (+206,+20, +0,20.000000,)
[04:03:26] <jmkasunich> Issuing EMC_TRAJ_LINEAR_MOVE -- (+220,+64, +0,2.086614,-2.209764,0.000000,0.000000,0.000000,0.000000, +1,)
[04:03:29] <jmkasunich> Issuing EMC_TRAJ_SET_VELOCITY -- (+205,+28, +0,1.200000,1.200000,)
[04:03:31] <jmkasunich> I
[04:03:36] <jmkasunich> the first linear move is issued after the set vel and set accel
[04:03:41] <cradek> ok
[04:03:49] <cradek> that means it's not something easy
[04:03:55] <jmkasunich> darn
[04:04:10] <jmkasunich> crap, 11 pm and I still haven't started on the compile farm problem
[04:04:11] <cradek> the first move must be diagonal in xy
[04:04:14] <jmkasunich> yes
[04:04:22] <jmkasunich> then up Z, then down Z
[04:04:25] <cradek> sigh
[04:04:48] <cradek> I could block blending for a reversal, but that won't fix the almost-reversal problem
[04:05:04] <cradek> I wish someone would come out of the woodwork and take simple_tp and run with it
[04:05:11] <jmkasunich> question - why is the first set-velocity setting it to 1.6?
[04:05:14] <jmkasunich> the limit is 1.2
[04:05:18] <cradek> that's 1.2 sqrt 2
[04:05:20] <cradek> I bet
[04:05:25] <cradek> because it's diagonal
[04:05:36] <jmkasunich> ok
[04:05:58] <cradek> but later the move is in one axis so it has to be slowed down to 1.2
[04:06:10] <jmkasunich> here are the Z moves
[04:06:11] <jmkasunich> Issuing EMC_TRAJ_SET_VELOCITY -- (+205,+28, +0,1.200000,1.200000,)
[04:06:11] <jmkasunich> Issuing EMC_TRAJ_LINEAR_MOVE -- (+220,+64, +0,2.086614,-2.209764,0.393701,0.000000,0.000000,0.000000, +1,)
[04:06:11] <jmkasunich> Issuing EMC_TRAJ_LINEAR_MOVE -- (+220,+64, +0,2.086614,-2.209764,-0.998898,0.000000,0.000000,0.000000, +1,)
[04:06:11] <jmkasunich> I
[04:06:31] <jmkasunich> up to +10mm (.393... inches), then down to -50mm
[04:06:40] <cradek> sure looks right
[04:06:46] <cradek> darn
[04:07:02] <cradek> so it's probably tp
[04:07:14] <jmkasunich> I'm just glad its not stepgen ;-/
[04:07:22] <cradek> I sure wish it was stepgen
[04:07:24] <cradek> or canon
[04:07:27] <jmkasunich> although that would probalby be easier to fix
[04:07:31] <cradek> right
[04:07:51] <jmkasunich> well I want to deal with the compile farm
[04:07:57] <cradek> ok, and I want to go home
[04:08:03] <jmkasunich> should we/I submit a bug report for this?
[04:08:03] <cradek> talk to you over the weekend maybe
[04:08:18] <SWPadnos> I have a bit more info on the axis problem, if you want it
[04:08:22] <jmkasunich> it seems to be repeatable
[04:08:24] <cradek> hardly any use, we already know blends are wrong
[04:08:35] <cradek> but if you want to, it's fine with me
[04:08:52] <cradek> SWPadnos: email it? I'm done for the night
[04:08:56] <jmkasunich> well it kinda sucks that one of our stock configs fails with out favorite demo g-code file
[04:09:01] <SWPadnos> ok - I'll try to make it sensible
[04:09:05] <cradek> jmkasunich: agreed
[04:09:15] <jmkasunich> fix the file? change the config?
[04:09:30] <cradek> jmkasunich: we could put a G4P.001 and it'll fix it
[04:09:39] <jmkasunich> (IOW, sweep it under a rug until we have a fix)
[04:09:43] <cradek> right
[04:09:45] <SWPadnos> why would it work fine using univstep though?
[04:09:56] <cradek> SWPadnos: more slop in the pid
[04:10:03] <jmkasunich> stepgen rigidly enforces the accel limits
[04:10:05] <cradek> SWPadnos: if you plot your ferror, I bet you'll see it
[04:10:13] <jmkasunich> it won't allow the TP to cheat
[04:10:16] <SWPadnos> ok, maybe tomorrow ;)
[04:10:28] <SWPadnos> but stepgen is getting higher limits
[04:10:41] <jmkasunich> that would solve it
[04:10:41] <SWPadnos> but not high enough for a misblend - got it
[04:10:47] <cradek> goodnight guys
[04:10:48] <jmkasunich> s/solve/hide/
[04:10:51] <SWPadnos> night
[04:10:55] <jmkasunich> night cradek
[04:11:39] <jmkasunich> judging by the scope traces, the error would wind up at 0.050 or more
[04:11:48] <jmkasunich> opening up the error limits won't fix that
[04:12:20] <jmkasunich> hmm, it really is a TP error, I just realized that it never reaches the target position
[04:12:34] <SWPadnos> the green trace?
[04:12:49] <jmkasunich> its supposed to go to 0.393701
[04:13:09] <jmkasunich> it reverses shortly after reaching 0.373
[04:13:27] <SWPadnos> there are two red traces - what are they?
[04:13:38] <jmkasunich> (scope offset is 0.393, so center of screen is 0.393 and one div down is 0.373
[04:13:46] <jmkasunich> the one that tracks the command is feedback
[04:13:50] <jmkasunich> (command is green)
[04:13:53] <SWPadnos> ah - ok
[04:13:59] <jmkasunich> the other one is error, at 0.005"/div
[04:14:10] <jmkasunich> tripped at 0.010 error
[04:14:17] <SWPadnos> yep
[04:14:39] <jmkasunich> you know, IMO, blending should be off on rapid moces
[04:14:41] <jmkasunich> moves evenb
[04:14:45] <jmkasunich> even even
[04:15:03] <SWPadnos> I think so as well, but Ray didn't (we had a short discussion on that topic)
[04:15:16] <jmkasunich> rapid->rapid, regular->rapid, and rapid->regular should be exact stop
[04:15:30] <SWPadnos> a friend of mine has issues with DeskCNC as well - rapid out of a hole, and it blends with the move to the next hole
[04:15:45] <jmkasunich> I heard a similar complaint about emc
[04:15:55] <SWPadnos> so he gets a gouge in the hole, unless he sets his clearance plane very high above the work
[04:16:00] <jmkasunich> yep
[04:16:32] <SWPadnos> though rapid->rapid should be blendable - rapids aren't even guaranteed to be coordinated
[04:17:21] <jmkasunich> since blending seems to be busted, I'm really tempted to turn it off for any rapid move
[04:17:27] <jmkasunich> turn it back on once fixed
[04:17:44] <SWPadnos> hack hack, cough cough, wheeze ;)
[04:17:46] <jmkasunich> in the meantime, like you say, rapids aren't guaranteed to be anything (including blended ;-)
[04:18:13] <SWPadnos> what's G4 again?
[04:18:22] <SWPadnos> (the G4P0.001)
[04:18:27] <jmkasunich> dunno
[04:18:31] <SWPadnos> heh
[04:18:50] <jmkasunich> P0.001 means pause 1mS, right?
[04:19:07] <SWPadnos> yep - dwell time
[04:19:43] <jmkasunich> heh, I know one way to fix the 3dchips demo
[04:19:47] <jmkasunich> swap two lines
[04:19:57] <jmkasunich> put the Z up move before the lateral move
[04:20:01] <SWPadnos> hmmm - it's only invalid if the P number is negative. I winder if G4P0 would just make everything exact stop mode?
[04:20:08] <jmkasunich> so instead of lateral, up, down, it would be up, lateral, down
[04:20:32] <jmkasunich> up lateral down would make more sense anyway, retract before move so you don't break a tool
[04:20:53] <SWPadnos> the demo files aren't exactly runnable in that regard
[04:21:25] <SWPadnos> cds starts with the tool below the work, for instance (I think)
[04:21:45] <jmkasunich> well its a good excuse to swap the lines anyway
[04:21:56] <jmkasunich> kate
[04:22:04] <jmkasunich> wrong window
[04:22:15] <jmkasunich> and no kate on this box anyway
[04:22:17] <jmkasunich> gotta fix that
[04:22:18] <SWPadnos> yeah - I'm Steve
[04:22:26] <SWPadnos> that'll be a long download
[04:22:43] <SWPadnos> you may want to try gedit ;)
[04:22:49] <jmkasunich> don't want all of kde, just kate
[04:23:01] <SWPadnos> gotta have kde-base and kde-libs, I think
[04:23:14] <jmkasunich> not tonight then
[04:23:41] <SWPadnos> easy enough to check, now that you know where synaptic is ;)
[04:24:50] <jmkasunich> 10 additional debs
[04:24:55] <SWPadnos> wow 0 15 dependencies, 5 suggests, and 1 recommends
[04:24:59] <jmkasunich> 22Meg
[04:25:10] <SWPadnos> not bad for an editor (har har)
[04:25:35] <SWPadnos> at least that's the tally on BDI 4.3
[04:25:45] <jmkasunich> gedit did the job
[04:25:57] <jmkasunich> but I want a nice multi-file editor
[04:25:59] <SWPadnos> it even hilights
[04:26:01] <jmkasunich> later
[04:26:10] <jmkasunich> it = gedit?
[04:26:14] <SWPadnos> yep
[04:26:18] <jmkasunich> kate does too
[04:26:34] <SWPadnos> I know - just pointing out that gedit isn't crap, just not the same :)
[04:26:45] <jmkasunich> yeah, I see that it has multiple files too
[04:27:03] <jmkasunich> dunno if I can split the window tho
[04:27:20] <SWPadnos> don't know about that
[04:28:01] <jmkasunich> doesn't look that way, you can move a file to a new window, but not split the window to display two files (or two parts of the same file)
[04:29:20] <SWPadnos> right
[04:29:24] <SWPadnos> bummer
[04:30:09] <SWPadnos> of course, I did add kate (and kde, for that matter)
[04:30:26] <SWPadnos> the kubuntu packages are available in synaptic
[04:30:34] <SWPadnos> though the desktop is still gnome
[04:31:04] <jmkasunich> ok, the edits to the NC file fixed the ferror
[04:31:35] <SWPadnos> IU'm not sure that's a good idea
[04:31:49] <jmkasunich> why not?
[04:31:59] <SWPadnos> you don't want to have people think that everything's great, only to have it fail on their own programs
[04:32:17] <SWPadnos> it's not ideal to have them think it sucks, and move on to something else either though
[04:32:30] <jmkasunich> well I can't fix it right now, and I certainly don't want 500 fscking folks asking the same question on the users list
[04:32:49] <jmkasunich> "why do I get a following error on 3dchips"
[04:33:06] <SWPadnos> those 500 people will be pissed off and still ask the question when their own programs give them following errors (and 3dchips doesn't)
[04:33:19] <jmkasunich> yeah
[04:34:02] <jmkasunich> except most of their programs won't rapid one direction then back the other direction on the very next move
[04:34:06] <SWPadnos> leave the problem there, and some kind sould pissed off programmer might fix the TP ;)
[04:34:15] <SWPadnos> soul, not sould
[04:34:51] <jmkasunich> dammit
[04:35:03] <SWPadnos> ?
[04:35:19] <jmkasunich> you're probably right
[04:35:23] <jmkasunich> grrrr
[04:35:24] <SWPadnos> sorry :(
[04:35:38] <jmkasunich> submitting a bug report
[04:36:28] <SWPadnos> do you know what the rough tuning parameters in stepgen are (expressed as P,I,D ...)?
[04:36:46] <jmkasunich> no, it doesn't use PID
[04:37:15] <SWPadnos> the better way to fix the problem would be to increase the headroom (or decrease the max_vel/accel)
[04:37:22] <SWPadnos> until the TP is fixed
[04:37:32] <jmkasunich> the TP is asking for about 3x the proper accel
[04:37:40] <SWPadnos> though I think Gene Heskett was fiddling with that
[04:37:47] <SWPadnos> yep - that's about what he found
[04:38:14] <jmkasunich> if we allow such extreme over-limit, either they have to really set the TP limits low, or they risk lost steps when the TP accels too fast
[04:38:36] <jmkasunich> lost steps is worse than following errors
[04:38:49] <SWPadnos> yep. damn
[04:39:02] <jmkasunich> IMHO you should be able to set your stepgen limits at the motor's limits
[04:39:18] <jmkasunich> as determined by sending a square wave into stepgen and letting it limit the accel and vel
[04:39:42] <SWPadnos> correct, but then you may have to dcrease the limits for TP, just in case
[04:39:46] <SWPadnos> decrease
[04:39:56] <jmkasunich> then derate a little to set the TP limits and be good to go, knowing that no matter how stupid the TP and/or backlash comp code is, the stepgen won't let you over-accel or over-vel your motor and lose steps
[04:40:37] <SWPadnos> I think that's the idea, the headroom is meant to be above the TP, but not above the motor capabilities
[04:40:43] <jmkasunich> right
[04:41:30] <jmkasunich> but when the TP sometimes goes 3x over its "limit", you either have to set the limit really low, or you will exceed the motor capability (or stepgen will enforce a limit and you will get ferror)
[04:41:52] <SWPadnos> right, or you fix the TP
[04:41:58] <SWPadnos> (but not tonight)
[04:42:02] <jmkasunich> right
[04:43:35] <SWPadnos> wait a sec - that cmd_pos trace was supposed to get to 0.373, or 0.393?
[04:43:47] <jmkasunich> .393701
[04:43:50] <jmkasunich> aka 10mm
[04:43:54] <SWPadnos> right
[04:44:04] <jmkasunich> only got to .373 and a bit
[04:44:10] <SWPadnos> but in blend mode, it doesn't have to get there
[04:44:17] <SWPadnos> it's trying to maintain speed
[04:44:31] <jmkasunich> heh, maintain speed as you reverse direction?
[04:44:38] <SWPadnos> hard to do -true
[04:45:59] <SWPadnos> where is this code? src/emc/motion?
[04:46:12] <jmkasunich> yes
[04:46:16] <jmkasunich> I think
[04:46:29] <SWPadnos> or src/emc/kinematics/{tp,tc}
[04:46:33] <jmkasunich> kins
[04:48:09] <SWPadnos> I'm not sure that the TP knows about G0 or G1 - only the feedrate is different
[04:48:40] <jmkasunich> right, its just speed
[04:48:49] <jmkasunich> it misblends everything, not just rapids
[04:49:00] <SWPadnos> right
[04:49:06] <jmkasunich> but rapids are more likely to be near the HW limit (stepgen or whatever) so you get ferror
[04:49:10] <SWPadnos> thinking about the "no blending for G0" idea
[04:49:24] <cradek> TP knows about g0/g1 now
[04:49:28] <jmkasunich> not the right solution, just a bandaid
[04:49:29] <cradek> motion_type
[04:49:34] <SWPadnos> ok
[04:50:20] <cradek> it would be easy to not blend rapids
[04:50:26] <SWPadnos> I do ned to figure out how to use screen ;)
[04:50:29] <SWPadnos> need
[04:50:42] <cradek> I use screen constantly
[04:50:46] <SWPadnos> I see that
[04:51:22] <cradek> oh, I see what you mean
[04:51:26] <SWPadnos> heh
[04:51:48] <SWPadnos> do you use the X version, or just the terminal?
[04:51:58] <cradek> terminal
[04:52:06] <cradek> I'm stuck in about 1994
[04:52:36] <SWPadnos> hmmm - 1994. the land before "32-bit windows for the masses" :)
[04:53:49] <cradek> if you want to not blend for g0, you would put it in canon (before tp)
[04:54:46] <SWPadnos> possibly. I wonder if the TP should consider a move done when it starts decel?
[04:54:52] <SWPadnos> (as it does now)
[04:55:13] <cradek> not sure what you mean by done
[04:55:22] <cradek> I think during the blend both moves are marked active
[04:55:52] <SWPadnos> there's a comment (though I didn't check the code) to the effect that a move is considered finished when decel starts, in blend mode
[04:56:17] <SWPadnos> err - nevermind
[04:56:24] <jmkasunich> damn, it automatically assigned the bug to me - thats not fair!
[04:56:26] <SWPadnos> the next move begins, not the current move ends
[04:56:29] <SWPadnos> heh
[04:56:30] <cradek> jmkasunich: haha
[04:56:52] <cradek> SWPadnos: right, the current move is marked decel, next move is accel, both are active
[04:57:19] <SWPadnos> ok, so when decel is in the same direction as accel, there's a problem
[04:57:26] <SWPadnos> the two values are added
[04:57:34] <cradek> I'm sure that's not the only problem
[04:57:49] <jmkasunich> that would explain 2x accel limit, I'm pretty sure I saw 3x
[04:58:05] <jmkasunich> I should probably put the ddt
[04:58:12] <jmkasunich> blocks in to verify that
[04:58:19] <SWPadnos> probably not the only problem - check lines 637 to 654 of tp.c
[04:58:34] <jmkasunich> its too late for me to get into the code tonight
[04:58:46] <jmkasunich> I've been trying to get more sleep, still recovering from a cold
[04:58:53] <jmkasunich> bedtime very soon
[04:58:56] <SWPadnos> heh - bummer
[04:59:04] <SWPadnos> no 3AM sessions this week huh?
[04:59:21] <jmkasunich> just remembered something tho, sim has ddts, and it should still show the problem (just not fault on it
[05:02:37] <jmkasunich> ok, according to the ddts, the accel is exactly twice the limit
[05:02:43] <cradek> aha
[05:03:18] <SWPadnos> oh - good
[05:03:23] <SWPadnos> which aha?
[05:03:31] <jmkasunich> sim is pretty nice for this
[05:03:33] <cradek> you're right about where it's wrong
[05:03:42] <jmkasunich> just trigger on accel < -22 ips^2
[05:03:59] <SWPadnos> woohoo!
[05:04:36] <cradek> I suspect the preAMax calculation that paul took out was related to this
[05:04:36] <jmkasunich> I bet the blend time is calced as min(time from current vel to zero, time from zero to target vel)
[05:04:44] <jmkasunich> which is only valid when both vels have the same sign
[05:05:05] <SWPadnos> it's not actually calculated at all, it seems
[05:05:12] <jmkasunich> oh, thats right
[05:05:23] <jmkasunich> it actually calcs the independent moves
[05:05:23] <cradek> yeah also the blend time is very wrong if the accels are different
[05:05:28] <SWPadnos> get accel, then scale accel (and add it in again)
[05:05:38] <SWPadnos> this doesn't blend, it only uses the current move
[05:05:39] <jmkasunich> (which include vel to zero and zero to vel ramps)
[05:06:00] <SWPadnos> everything is thisTC, no nextTC or anything
[05:06:40] <jmkasunich> anyway, it is trivially duplicated, which is half the battle IMO
[05:06:45] <SWPadnos> maybe thisTc needs to be thisTc->next somewhere in there?
[05:07:10] <cradek> no you're inside a loop over the tc queue
[05:07:31] <jmkasunich> I'll leave you guys to it, I gotta get my sleep
[05:07:33] <jmkasunich> good luck
[05:07:38] <cradek> with if(done) continue; at the top
[05:07:38] <SWPadnos> thanks
[05:07:44] <cradek> goodnight jmk
[05:08:28] <SWPadnos> I don't see done, was that a paraphrase?
[05:08:34] <cradek> yes, sorry
[05:08:44] <cradek> line 542
[05:08:49] <SWPadnos> oops - tcIsDone
[05:09:16] <cradek> I'll look at this tomorrow... it's too late tonight
[05:09:22] <SWPadnos> I agree
[05:09:29] <cradek> let me know if you make any discoveries :-)
[05:09:36] <cradek> talk to you tomorrow
[05:09:42] <SWPadnos> I think I'll discover how warm my electric blanket is
[05:09:46] <SWPadnos> see you :)
[06:04:44] <SWPadnos> SWPadnos is now known as SWP_Away
[14:23:29] <SWP_Away> SWP_Away is now known as SWPadnos
[23:25:22] <jepler> in case this reassures anyone of my good intentions, I'm installing bdi-live in qemu right now and will work this weekend to get emc2 compiling on it again
