#linuxcnc | Logs for 2014-12-19

[00:06:10] <zeeshan> if i touch 120VAC between hot and neutral
[00:06:15] <zeeshan> and my resistance is about 1000 ohms
[00:06:32] <zeeshan> I = V / R = 120/1000 = 0.12
[00:06:36] <zeeshan> 120 mA can kill you
[00:06:50] <zeeshan> they say more than 6mA you will feel a shock
[00:06:53] <zeeshan> but if you do
[00:07:04] <zeeshan> I = 12 / 1000 = 0.012 = 12mA (12V dc system)
[00:07:10] <zeeshan> i've touched +12v and - 12v all the time
[00:07:14] <zeeshan> it doesnt do anything
[00:07:16] <zeeshan> even w/ wet hands
[00:07:28] <zeeshan> whats going on?
[00:08:13] <jdh> with what
[00:08:16] <SpeedEvil> you're inventing the 1000
[00:08:56] <zeeshan> oh
[00:09:03] <zeeshan> 1000 to 500 ohms is for wet skin
[00:12:54] <zeeshan> cant find values
[00:12:57] * zeeshan going to measure his resistance
[00:13:18] <DaViruz> it is futile.
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[00:18:52] <zeeshan> wet is about
[00:18:58] <zeeshan> 660000 ohms
[00:19:11] <zeeshan> dry is about 1100000 ohms
[00:19:19] <zeeshan> i dont know where the fuck this 1000 ohm number is coming from
[00:19:20] <zeeshan> on the internet
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[00:20:45] <zeeshan> this is hand to hand
[00:20:52] <zeeshan> hand to foot is about 12M ohm
[00:21:45] <zeeshan> 120 / 660000 = 0.00018 A
[00:21:51] <zeeshan> okay time to touch 120V conectors
[00:21:54] <zeeshan> *conductors
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[00:29:20] <jdh> I wouldn't suggest it.
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[00:30:05] <zeeshan> read more about it
[00:30:19] <zeeshan> okay yea its the current that kills you
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[00:30:39] <zeeshan> but human body ohms is a function of voltage.
[00:30:59] <zeeshan> like a 12V power supply doesnt have enough voltage to pierce through you
[00:31:01] <zeeshan> but 120V does
[00:31:09] <jdh> also dc v.s ac
[00:31:13] <zeeshan> the more the electricity pierces through you
[00:31:19] <zeeshan> the lower your ohms is
[00:31:32] <zeeshan> so that 1000 ohms value is a "safe" value osha uses
[00:31:50] <zeeshan> why does ac vs dc matter
[00:31:56] <zeeshan> 120V dc would be more dangerous i'd think
[00:31:58] <zeeshan> than 120V AC
[00:32:05] <zeeshan> cause of the cyclic nature
[00:34:28] <zeeshan> this is interesting stuff :D
[00:35:39] <jfigie> 120VAC has peaks of 170 V
[00:35:55] <zeeshan> oh yea
[00:35:58] <zeeshan> i forgot its 120vac rms
[00:36:05] <zeeshan> 120 * sqrt 2
[00:37:21] <zeeshan> is it always true that a short between a neutral wire
[00:37:33] <zeeshan> and a metal case that is grounded
[00:37:38] <zeeshan> can never go live?
[00:37:52] <zeeshan> all the books ive seen and articles ive read
[00:37:57] <zeeshan> say it won't
[00:38:01] <zeeshan> but i think theyre idealizing
[00:38:49] <jdh> in theory, theory and practice are the same.
[00:38:55] <zeeshan> :)
[00:39:22] <jfigie> as long as it is really grounded. The neutral and ground are tied together where the service enters
[00:39:34] <jfigie> the building
[00:39:42] <jfigie> typically
[00:39:47] <zeeshan> so how will you ever know
[00:39:49] <zeeshan> tehre is a short there?
[00:39:50] <zeeshan> without a GFCI
[00:42:44] <zeeshan> https://www.flickr.com/photos/128539016@N05/15865831068/
[00:42:45] <Valen> in the USA where you have transformers yeah it'll probably work
[00:42:47] <zeeshan> so many neutrals and grounds
[00:43:07] micges-dev1 is now known as micges
[00:43:09] <Valen> here you can get a certain amount of difference between neutral and ground i believe
[00:43:20] <zeeshan> valen when i worked at eaton
[00:43:27] <zeeshan> we used to sell gfci breakers
[00:43:34] <zeeshan> we got complaints on nuisance tripping
[00:44:06] <zeeshan> cost most commercial gfci are meant to trip at 6mA or if neutral is shorted out
[00:44:18] <zeeshan> but if you hook up a grounded air collector to that circuit
[00:44:25] <zeeshan> you can easily get more tham 6mA leakage
[00:44:30] <zeeshan> so they kept on tripping :/
[00:44:56] <zeeshan> so we sold them our breakers that can have their trip current adjustable :)
[00:45:09] <zeeshan> *cost = cause
[00:45:20] <Tom_itx> those videos are good but they sure drag on
[00:45:33] <zeeshan> what videos
[00:45:53] <Tom_L> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_VO9uRigQ8
[00:45:57] <Tom_itx> those
[00:46:05] <zeeshan> ive watched every single one of em :D
[00:46:06] <zeeshan> hes the man
[00:46:11] <zeeshan> tom lipton
[00:46:18] <Tom_L> not a bad name
[00:46:24] <zeeshan> you know he has a book too?
[00:46:25] <zeeshan> a few
[00:46:28] <Tom_L> nope
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[00:46:41] <Tom_L> he's good but i think it drags too much
[00:46:42] <zeeshan> http://www.amazon.com/Metalworking-Doing-Better-Tom-Lipton/dp/0831134763
[00:46:49] <zeeshan> http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_book_1?ie=UTF8&field-author=Tom+Lipton&search-alias=books&text=Tom+Lipton&sort=relevancerank
[00:46:50] <zeeshan> better link
[00:46:54] <jfigie> yes he talks and repeats himself too much
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[00:47:49] <zeeshan> i enjoy watching the videos :)
[00:47:50] <zeeshan> beats tv
[00:48:06] <zeeshan> https://www.flickr.com/photos/128539016@N05/15865831068/
[00:48:20] <zeeshan> so if any one of my neutral wires decided to short to the metal chassis
[00:48:33] <zeeshan> the case wouldnt go live
[00:48:41] <zeeshan> but if the hot wire shorted to neutral or the case
[00:48:45] <zeeshan> fuse protection will go off
[00:48:51] <zeeshan> anything else i overlooked?
[00:49:03] <Tom_L> neutral doesn't go to the case?
[00:49:14] <zeeshan> whatcha mean
[00:49:31] <Tom_L> the case isn't grounded?
[00:49:40] <zeeshan> case will be grounded
[00:49:52] <Tom_L> neutral != GND ?
[00:49:53] <zeeshan> the 3awg main wire coming from the breaker
[00:50:11] <zeeshan> yes neutral normally doesnt short to the case
[00:50:18] <zeeshan> thats why the neutral bus is insulated on the left
[00:50:29] <zeeshan> but im saying, if a neutral wire decided to short
[00:51:08] <Tom_L> i'm somewhat trying to figure out what went wrong in my box
[00:51:17] <zeeshan> well since neutral is always bonded at the main breaker panel
[00:51:19] <zeeshan> its always grounded i guess
[00:51:21] <Tom_L> all the 5v blew but the 5v reg is good
[00:51:25] <jfigie> yes if it decided to short you would have a neutral ground fault but it would probably go undetected
[00:51:34] <Tom_L> one dude thinks it came from the PC
[00:51:37] <zeeshan> jfigie: what if both neutral
[00:51:41] <zeeshan> was shorted to the case
[00:51:43] <Tom_L> i'm not quite buying his idea
[00:51:47] <zeeshan> and then mr hot wire decided to short
[00:52:14] <zeeshan> Tom_L: what are you using to power the 5v?
[00:52:17] <zeeshan> computer PSU?
[00:52:21] <Tom_L> smps
[00:52:27] <zeeshan> what brand
[00:52:34] <zeeshan> think it had a temporary hiccup?
[00:52:39] <Tom_L> tom_L brand
[00:52:51] <jfigie> then you would trip the breaker if the hot shorts to the case even is neutral is already shorted
[00:53:06] <Tom_L> http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/misc_stuff/5v_switcher.jpg
[00:53:09] <Tom_L> one of those
[00:53:09] <zeeshan> i blew up some CC fuses today
[00:53:13] <zeeshan> they're really not dramatic at all
[00:53:17] <zeeshan> like car fuses at 120vac
[00:53:53] <zeeshan> jfigie: tell me if im over thinking it
[00:53:55] <Tom_L> http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/psu/control9.jpg
[00:53:57] <Tom_L> left side there
[00:54:00] <zeeshan> but do you think theres any use of having a GFCI main breaker for the machine?
[00:54:09] <Tom_L> i'm gonna do some rewiring i think
[00:54:12] <zeeshan> im thinking there is absolutely no way become part of the circuit
[00:54:15] <Tom_L> that's not a final pic btw
[00:54:20] <zeeshan> its not like the enclosure will get filled with water
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[00:55:05] <zeeshan> i can see why you need a gfci in a washroom, say you drop your hairdryer in the sink, the electricity will still flow through it without shorting
[00:55:12] <zeeshan> and when you touch that water, you'll become part of the circuit too
[00:55:14] <jfigie> I would not use a gfci. They tend to nuisance trip if there is too much leakage current/
[00:55:18] <zeeshan> and since you've got about 1000 ohms of resistance
[00:55:29] <zeeshan> it'll only pass .2 A through you approx and not trip the overload
[00:55:30] <jdh> our work scenarios always start with "the building is full of water"
[00:55:34] <jfigie> If your enclosure is metal and well bonded to ground it should be OK
[00:56:07] <zeeshan> well to check if the metal enclosures are well bonded
[00:56:26] <zeeshan> i measure the resistance at various points of the case and the ground bar (where the earth wire will hook up to from the breaker panel)
[00:56:28] <jfigie> That is why UL and other standards require a ground bond test for some standards
[00:56:33] <zeeshan> and i get less than 0.1 ohms
[00:56:53] <jfigie> The ground must be capable of carrying the fault current
[00:57:09] <zeeshan> so if its a 100 amp circuit
[00:57:10] <jfigie> If that is the case then you should be OK
[00:57:12] <zeeshan> it needs to be sized to 3awg
[00:57:15] <Tom_L> does the ground cable go back thru the neutral plug wire?
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[00:57:31] <zeeshan> huh
[00:57:47] <zeeshan> http://sub.allaboutcircuits.com/images/00075.png
[00:57:51] <zeeshan> this is a proper circuit Tom_itx
[00:58:13] <zeeshan> i know you can't bond neutral and ground at a sub enclosure sometimes
[00:58:14] <Tom_L> where does GROUND POINT go?
[00:58:17] <zeeshan> because the upstream breaker wont trip
[00:58:19] <Tom_L> ground rod?
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[00:58:26] <zeeshan> the ground point goes from your main panel bus bar
[00:58:29] <zeeshan> to a water pipe usually
[00:58:38] <zeeshan> i know for accessory buildings
[00:58:41] <zeeshan> it'll go to a ground rod
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[00:59:02] <Tom_L> so neutral and ground _are_ tied together
[00:59:05] TenFingeredMatt is now known as MattyMatt
[00:59:06] <zeeshan> yes
[00:59:07] <zeeshan> at one place.
[00:59:09] <zeeshan> the main panel
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[00:59:19] <zeeshan> if you tie it at say a cnc enclosure
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[00:59:24] <zeeshan> your upstream breaker might not trip.
[00:59:28] <Tom_L> the case has a large ground lug on the plate
[00:59:31] <zeeshan> *upstream being the main panel breaker
[01:00:00] <Tom_L> http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/psu/control8.jpg
[01:00:04] <Tom_L> bottom right
[01:00:24] <zeeshan> where is thatr green wire going
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[01:00:37] <Tom_L> to the plug iirc
[01:00:49] <Tom_L> i'd have to freeze my arse off and go check for sure
[01:00:53] <zeeshan> where does the ground from your main panel go?
[01:00:54] <Tom_L> but i'm not gonna
[01:01:01] <zeeshan> do you guys have a water pipe?
[01:01:11] <Tom_L> not where the mill is
[01:01:20] <zeeshan> no
[01:01:25] <zeeshan> like your power to this cnc mill
[01:01:33] <Tom_L> wall outlet
[01:01:33] <zeeshan> it comes from your resideential panel?
[01:01:36] <Tom_L> yes
[01:01:46] <zeeshan> the main ground for your residential panel is what im asking
[01:01:47] <Tom_L> it has a 10' ground rod going to it
[01:01:58] <zeeshan> ahhh
[01:02:03] <zeeshan> well if youre ever ensure
[01:02:07] <zeeshan> *unsure
[01:02:14] <zeeshan> i'd measure the ohms between that ground point in your casse
[01:02:17] <zeeshan> and the 10' ground rod :)
[01:02:28] <zeeshan> should be 3-4 ohms
[01:02:29] <Tom_L> i'm just trying to figure out what happened to cause the short
[01:02:33] <Tom_L> it's still a mystery to me
[01:02:42] <Tom_L> but i haven't dug very far yet
[01:03:15] <zeeshan> i dunno how youve designed your 5v supply
[01:03:22] <zeeshan> do you have an isolation plane?
[01:03:41] <zeeshan> cause if the voltage for some reason jumped
[01:03:47] <zeeshan> could cause an issue?
[01:04:17] <Tom_L> it's possible i did it myself but i'm unaware of it if i did
[01:04:28] <Tom_L> i was doing some wiring but i'm generally quite cautions
[01:04:32] <Tom_L> ous*
[01:04:57] <zeeshan> you know what i saw once?
[01:04:59] <Tom_L> i'm planning to rework some of the box
[01:05:01] <zeeshan> a copper whisker
[01:05:11] <zeeshan> that caused a huge short circuit in a distribution panel
[01:05:11] <zeeshan> lol
[01:05:17] <Tom_L> yeah
[01:05:26] <Tom_L> those take time to grow though
[01:06:09] <Tom_L> i don't need all 3 of those transformers, i my remove a couple until i actually need the power
[01:06:27] <Tom_L> pretty sure 1 would be more than adequate for the sherline
[01:07:04] <Tom_L> make the box alot lighter too
[01:07:34] <eeriegeek> It looks like all your signal grounds could be earth grounded.
[01:07:59] <Tom_L> is that bad?
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[01:09:44] <jfigie> it is pretty typical to tie the secondary common to chassis at some point
[01:10:48] <Tom_L> well, i though it was
[01:11:04] <Tom_L> i'm no expert on machine wiring though
[01:11:43] <jfigie> I think you usually want to control where your return currents are going
[01:11:52] <eeriegeek> Me neither, thought that could cause problems if the earth ground ever picks up voltage.
[01:12:11] <Tom_L> i've always tried to adhere to the star gnd wiring configuration
[01:12:19] <jfigie> but if you have the common tied to chassis in one place you still are in control of where the currents go
[01:14:39] <renesis> earth ground picking up voltage isnt a problem if everything is star grounded to earth ground
[01:14:44] <eeriegeek> I was just looking at all the boards with binder posts into the sheet metal plate thinking that was unusual.. maybe not though
[01:14:59] <renesis> anything other than strict star grounding is a compromise
[01:15:31] <Tom_L> eeriegeek i'm planning to redo that if you're looking at my box
[01:15:54] <Tom_L> picked up some din rail the other day
[01:16:16] <Tom_L> i will isolate all the grounds and tie them at one point
[01:16:56] <eeriegeek> Gotcha, I kind of hopped into the middle of that, sorry
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[01:17:02] <Tom_L> np
[01:17:11] <Tom_L> i'm always looking for ways to improve a design
[01:17:18] <Tom_L> given what i have to work with...
[01:17:27] <jdh> I'm alwyas looking for good enough
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[01:18:47] <zeeshan> Tom_itx: by copper whisker
[01:18:52] <zeeshan> i mean a shaving of copper strand
[01:18:55] <zeeshan> i used the wrong term
[01:19:13] <Tom_L> yeah
[01:19:31] <jfigie> yep "tin whiskers" can grow over time
[01:19:52] <zeeshan> grounding your 24VDC - rail
[01:19:54] <zeeshan> to earth
[01:19:57] <zeeshan> is that even necessary?
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[01:20:30] <Tom_L> why not?
[01:20:34] <jfigie> I think it is a good practice unless you really need a floating supply
[01:20:44] <zeeshan> well don't you earth stuff
[01:20:51] <zeeshan> for shock protection?
[01:21:22] <zeeshan> at 25VDC , wiki says 50% of population has 3250 ohms of resistance
[01:21:26] <zeeshan> (worst case)
[01:21:34] <jfigie> if you have a floating output then the stray capacitance and nearby ac voltages will determene the potential to earth
[01:21:45] <zeeshan> so 8mA
[01:21:49] <zeeshan> i guess that can hurt
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[01:22:17] <renesis> like, if you jab a wire into you chest
[01:22:29] <renesis> across your hand itll just tickle funny
[01:22:32] <zeeshan> renesis: these values are based on
[01:22:33] <zeeshan> wet hands
[01:22:38] <zeeshan> and the voltage penetrating through the skin
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[01:22:49] <zeeshan> @ hands
[01:22:50] <renesis> well dont be stabbing yourself with HV
[01:23:02] <zeeshan> no its not about stabbing
[01:23:06] <zeeshan> the article i read says
[01:23:11] <zeeshan> the voltage breaks down through your skin
[01:23:21] <zeeshan> kinda like why you have a insulator thats rated to 300V
[01:23:22] <renesis> wtf does that mean
[01:23:22] <zeeshan> vs 600V
[01:23:28] <renesis> the voltage drops across your skin?
[01:23:31] <zeeshan> no
[01:23:42] <zeeshan> your "insulation resistance"
[01:23:44] <renesis> well define break down like it neans something
[01:23:49] <zeeshan> the higher the voltage
[01:23:52] <zeeshan> the lower your insulation.
[01:23:53] <zeeshan> resistance
[01:24:00] <Tom_L> ohm's law
[01:24:08] <renesis> well, maybe until you heat up and dry out a bit
[01:24:12] <renesis> anyway, dont be an idiot
[01:24:25] <zeeshan> when you see victims of electricution
[01:24:27] <Tom_L> go cook a hotdog in your wall outlet
[01:24:28] <zeeshan> whats the typical sign?
[01:24:32] <renesis> i got 350VDC across my hands constantly when working on SMPS
[01:24:35] <zeeshan> you see a black mark on them of burn
[01:24:46] <zeeshan> their insulation broke down :)
[01:25:19] <renesis> i dunno man i wouldnt really consider skin insulating very well
[01:25:24] <Tom_itx> gonna go kick back a while...
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[01:25:29] <renesis> were not that capacitive
[01:25:38] <zeeshan> jfigie: i didnt understand your comment
[01:25:47] <renesis> human body model is like 300pf or something tiny like that
[01:25:49] <zeeshan> for a floating output "he stray capacitance and nearby ac voltages will determene the potential to earth'
[01:25:51] <renesis> for ESD strikes
[01:26:00] <zeeshan> what is stray capacistance and ac voltages?
[01:26:05] <zeeshan> <- confused
[01:26:24] <renesis> capacitance between any non conducting barriers
[01:26:28] <zeeshan> youre basically saying air gap
[01:26:33] <renesis> anything gap
[01:26:35] <zeeshan> or insulation resistance
[01:26:37] <renesis> that doesnt conduct well
[01:26:40] <zeeshan> ah
[01:26:53] <zeeshan> why is that a bad thing?
[01:27:01] <renesis> capacitance is surface area and distance
[01:27:07] <zeeshan> that just means you'll get shocked by 24vdc
[01:27:10] <zeeshan> which isnt too bad
[01:27:12] <zeeshan> it tingles
[01:27:26] <Jymm> so does 220VAC
[01:27:29] <renesis> i dont really feel anything under 30v
[01:27:42] <zeeshan> honestly the only time i've gotten shocked
[01:27:44] <zeeshan> is by my tig welder
[01:27:47] <Jymm> renesis: Yeah? put a fresh 0v battery on your toung
[01:27:50] <Jymm> 9v
[01:27:53] <zeeshan> i think it was outputting 35vdc.
[01:27:54] <renesis> tongue doesnt count
[01:28:03] <renesis> and i used to keep 9v batteries on my tongue indefinitely
[01:28:04] <Jymm> renesis: Yes it does. you said <30V
[01:28:14] <zeeshan> 9v tastes delecious
[01:28:15] <renesis> skin while working
[01:28:16] <zeeshan> delicious
[01:28:24] <renesis> i dont suck on voltage while working
[01:28:27] <renesis> its not professional
[01:28:37] <zeeshan> hahaha
[01:28:40] <zeeshan> you suck on something else!
[01:28:44] * zeeshan hides
[01:28:48] <Jymm> renesis: so you're saying you just suck at all other times?
[01:28:51] <renesis> nope, id still have jobs if i did that
[01:29:07] <renesis> dunno man, pretty good at my job
[01:29:25] <zeeshan> renesis: y ou just got fucked
[01:29:30] <zeeshan> or people didnt like you
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[01:29:35] <renesis> ?
[01:29:43] <zeeshan> about your ex job
[01:29:47] <renesis> which
[01:29:52] <zeeshan> audio place
[01:29:57] <renesis> last ex job im going back to in a week
[01:30:02] <renesis> theyre all audio places
[01:30:03] <zeeshan> you clearly know what the hell youre doing
[01:30:04] <zeeshan> :P
[01:30:20] <renesis> the one youre talking about, getting fired when i did instead of leaving was worth about $15k
[01:30:29] <renesis> and i still have lunch with the guys i worked with an for
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[01:31:14] <renesis> but it was cute seeing you repeat YOU GOT FIRED YOU GOT FIRED over and over after i banned you, like getting fired from a place you wanted to leave for like a year previous is a bad thing
[01:31:40] <renesis> also technically, according to HR, i was laid off
[01:32:29] <renesis> so yeah, me in school full time right now is possible because got fired, so dont regret shit
[01:32:43] <zeeshan> upgrading never is bad :D
[01:32:45] <renesis> engineers making 50% more than me had no chance of buying a house in that city, anyway
[01:33:18] <renesis> and it was too close to home, so ridiculous amounts spent on gasoline
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[01:34:11] <renesis> and i dont kiss ass like you do, do yeah typically there will be a couple people dont like me much places i work
[01:34:28] <zeeshan> it's not about kissing ass
[01:34:33] <zeeshan> it's about communicating properly with people
[01:34:36] <zeeshan> even if they're wrong
[01:34:40] <zeeshan> you don't tell someone they're wrong
[01:34:53] <renesis> you do if it gets shit done
[01:34:56] <zeeshan> you show em how to do it differently.
[01:35:07] <zeeshan> no one likes being told theyre wrong
[01:35:12] <renesis> project managers love me because i say the things they wont =)
[01:35:30] <zeeshan> i'm not saying you let it go.
[01:35:32] <zeeshan> you never let it go!
[01:35:41] <renesis> 05:38:19 < zeeshan> you show em how to do it differently.
[01:35:41] <renesis> 05:38:30 < zeeshan> no one likes being told theyre wrong
[01:35:50] <renesis> thats some lala land ideal situations
[01:36:00] <zeeshan> even if someone is wrong
[01:36:05] <zeeshan> you don't go YOURE WRONG.
[01:36:07] <renesis> and if you cant deal with being wrong, you prob shouldnt be in engineering
[01:36:08] <zeeshan> you say
[01:36:13] <zeeshan> "i don't think that will work for this reason"
[01:36:21] <renesis> thats the same thing dude
[01:36:24] <zeeshan> not really
[01:36:25] <renesis> and thats how i would say it
[01:36:28] <zeeshan> ones constructive
[01:36:32] <zeeshan> ones destructive
[01:36:34] <renesis> dude, its semantics
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[01:36:37] <zeeshan> i hate engineering fkrs at school
[01:36:41] <zeeshan> kids always go "thats WRONG"
[01:36:49] <zeeshan> and they end up looking like morons cause they're wrong
[01:36:54] <zeeshan> so its a win win situation being nice :)
[01:37:01] <renesis> well so you call him wrong
[01:37:07] <renesis> and in the end, everyone knows more for it
[01:37:11] <zeeshan> anyone who says "this won't work"
[01:37:15] <zeeshan> i take very lightly
[01:37:19] <zeeshan> cause they dont know what the hell theyre talking about
[01:37:26] <zeeshan> cause they can't even compose a sentence or come up with why
[01:37:27] <renesis> eh?
[01:37:34] <renesis> ive said that, and shits not worked
[01:37:48] <renesis> thats why you have experienced people around
[01:37:54] <renesis> they know a lot of shit that doesnt work
[01:37:55] <zeeshan> experience is great and dandy
[01:38:03] <zeeshan> but it's important to tell someone why i't wont work
[01:38:07] <renesis> sure
[01:38:10] <zeeshan> just saying it wont work is as good as nothing
[01:38:30] <renesis> well, it kind of depends on how much time and who is involved
[01:38:30] <zeeshan> and doing something because it works
[01:38:38] <zeeshan> isn't a great answer either
[01:39:11] <renesis> anyway, mostly what youre talking about applies to office politics
[01:39:23] <renesis> ive been thanked many times for going against that grain
[01:39:52] <renesis> i dont have a family and money isnt a huge deal, i can afford to be honest to push projects forward
[01:40:18] <renesis> its basically how i got last job (same as upcoming job) without an interview
[01:41:05] <zeeshan> i wonder if i power my machine
[01:41:11] <renesis> you pick your battles
[01:41:13] <zeeshan> with 15 amp receptacle
[01:41:16] <zeeshan> if itll blow shit up
[01:41:22] <zeeshan> even though all the power supplies are unloaded
[01:41:26] <zeeshan> and servo drives are unloaded
[01:41:27] <zeeshan> same w/ vfd
[01:41:45] <zeeshan> under full load i calc 85-90A
[01:41:51] <zeeshan> its too cold in the garage to hook it up :()
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[01:43:32] <zeeshan> 15 +24vdc
[01:43:40] <jfigie> if the motors are unloaded it may not draw too much. I don't know about any inrush.
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[01:44:46] <jfigie> 85 - 90A seems like a lot for a small? machine
[01:44:49] <zeeshan> my 24VDC supply is powering limit switches, a hydraulic solenoid, z-brake, other control relays, contactor coil side
[01:45:02] <zeeshan> i wonder if thats a bad idea
[01:45:11] <zeeshan> cause of the inrush from the solenoids
[01:45:19] <zeeshan> jfigie: i dunno thats what i calculated
[01:45:27] <zeeshan> i calculated many many times
[01:45:42] <zeeshan> most of the circuits are 110V
[01:45:48] <zeeshan> except the spindle drive which is 240
[01:46:15] <jfigie> if you add the max currents from every thing you get a big number. But will that ever really be the case
[01:46:21] <zeeshan> thats true
[01:46:30] <zeeshan> i designed for worst case
[01:46:31] <zeeshan> :P
[01:46:34] <zeeshan> which is kinda silly
[01:46:36] <zeeshan> but its my machine!
[01:47:02] <zeeshan> https://pdf.yt/d/lypbjB1P3rsUGjaU
[01:47:04] <zeeshan> those are all the devices
[01:47:06] <jfigie> Thats OK it will be more reliable
[01:47:30] <zeeshan> 5 servo drives, 3 vfds, couple of psu, a PC , lamps, fans, lubricator
[01:48:52] <zeeshan> im really hoping when the solenoid triggers
[01:49:01] <zeeshan> or the z-brake 24vdc engages
[01:49:08] <zeeshan> it doesnt effect the voltage drop at the supply.
[01:49:17] <zeeshan> i haven't fully loaded a meanwell 24vdc supply before
[01:49:26] <jfigie> it will take /me a bit to look at that drawing
[01:49:40] <zeeshan> dont waste your time :)
[01:49:43] <zeeshan> just wanted to show the devices
[01:49:55] <zeeshan> though if you can comment on the 24vdc
[01:49:57] <zeeshan> that would be appreciated :D
[01:50:13] <zeeshan> i feel like the z-brake and hydraulic solenoid
[01:50:17] <zeeshan> need some sort of snubber circuit
[01:50:28] <zeeshan> for the inrush currents
[01:50:49] <zeeshan> otherwise ill blow up the 24vdc supply
[01:53:01] <zeeshan> another person has a similar machine
[01:53:05] <zeeshan> and their circuit diagram looks like this:
[01:53:06] <zeeshan> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ti3t81sxkky36in/AAAGffuUME_d8rCreVbBW2Jxa/SCHEMATICS?dl=0#lh:null-maho_400e_schematics_10.png
[01:53:14] <zeeshan> specifically for the motor brake.
[01:53:37] <zeeshan> theres 3 contacts that activate it
[01:53:56] <zeeshan> im assuming the resistor symbol with a line through it is the brake
[01:54:00] <zeeshan> not sure what the thing on the right is
[01:54:25] <jfigie> OK the motor brake is just a resistor
[01:54:42] <zeeshan> i believe its a 24W resistor.
[01:55:11] <zeeshan> https://www.flickr.com/photos/128539016@N05/14912262293/
[01:55:12] <zeeshan> i lied
[01:55:16] <zeeshan> 20W resistor
[01:55:45] <zeeshan> i actually don't know how a motor brake works.
[01:56:04] <zeeshan> the servo is hard to turn when the brake is engaged
[01:56:08] <zeeshan> er.
[01:56:16] <zeeshan> the servo is hard to turn when the brake is not energized
[01:56:20] <zeeshan> but easy to turn when energized
[01:56:48] <jfigie> when the motor is decelerating it generates. The resistor is a load
[01:57:14] <jfigie> when resistor is connected turning the motor forces current thought it
[01:57:42] <jfigie> that is why ii is hard to turn with the brake on
[01:57:48] <jfigie> it*
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[02:01:08] <zeeshan> ahh
[02:01:13] <zeeshan> kinda the same principal as a braking resistor
[02:01:14] <zeeshan> on a vfd.
[02:01:30] <zeeshan> but in this case, the power source is the servo itself
[02:01:43] <zeeshan> power source of the resistor tha tis
[02:01:59] <zeeshan> hm then how does puttiong 24vdc through it change that?
[02:03:34] <jfigie> I was assuming the 24V was for the relay coil that controls the brake
[02:03:50] <jfigie> where is it on the first schematic
[02:04:00] <zeeshan> yes
[02:04:09] <zeeshan> when that coil is energized
[02:04:23] <zeeshan> current flows through the brake, and it allows the servo motor to spin freely
[02:04:38] <zeeshan> but when there is no current flow through the brake, the servo motor is locked almost
[02:04:44] <zeeshan> which is why its a bit confusing to me.
[02:04:52] <zeeshan> usually you put DC current through an eddy brake
[02:04:55] <zeeshan> to make it function
[02:05:03] <zeeshan> (and cause braking action)
[02:05:06] <zeeshan> not the opposite
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[02:07:46] <jfigie> OK I don't know how you brake works.
[02:08:10] <jfigie> I see the resistor and it only is connected to 24V power
[02:08:20] <jfigie> not the drive
[02:08:38] <jdh> coil for EM brake insteadd
[02:10:00] <jfigie> anyway if you have any inductive loads like your lube motor running from 24V it is good practice to put a diode in the reverse direction across the load to absorb the energy in the inductance when you switch it off
[02:10:22] <jfigie> it will save your relay contacts
[02:10:27] <zeeshan> lube motor is 110VAC
[02:10:36] <jfigie> OK never mind
[02:10:38] <zeeshan> only inductive load i can think of is the hydraulic solenoid
[02:10:54] <zeeshan> the relays have builtin flyback diode
[02:11:03] <zeeshan> but i feel like the sudden rush of current will harm the power supply
[02:11:14] <zeeshan> i've seen people put RC snubber circuits in parallel with the solenoid
[02:11:20] <zeeshan> to lessen the demand on the power supply
[02:11:47] <jfigie> I think a diode would work but it will slow the turn off
[02:12:20] <jfigie> the diode would go across the solenoid
[02:12:43] <zeeshan> youre using the diode to stop back EMF?
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[02:13:16] <jfigie> absorb energy in the inductance
[02:13:21] <zeeshan> http://www.ceejay.com/img_aler/aler27_0.gif
[02:13:24] <zeeshan> theres the 3 types i see
[02:13:25] <jfigie> yes like back EMF
[02:13:28] <zeeshan> youre talking about bottom right
[02:13:33] <jfigie> yes
[02:13:53] <jfigie> the snubber will be faster but allow a higher voltage at turn off
[02:14:24] <jfigie> The varistor will also allow faster turn off
[02:14:46] <zeeshan> never used a varistor before
[02:14:49] <zeeshan> must read about it :)
[02:15:06] <jfigie> but I wouldn't use a varistor they have limited life dependent on how hard you make them work
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[02:15:42] <jfigie> Some kind of transient suppression diode would be better
[02:15:53] <zeeshan> the diode in the bottom right
[02:16:00] <zeeshan> what is its disadvantage?
[02:16:10] <jfigie> It all depends on how bit the inductance and how large the currents are
[02:16:34] <jfigie> the disadvantage with the diiode in the bottom right is when you try to turn off the coil
[02:16:51] <jfigie> it will take more time for the current to go to zero
[02:17:11] <jfigie> the current will circulate in the diode for a longer time that the other circuits
[02:17:43] <zeeshan> i like the resistor thing
[02:17:45] <zeeshan> cause its easier to wire
[02:17:46] <zeeshan> lol
[02:17:50] <zeeshan> i mean the diode method
[02:18:16] <jfigie> It turn off time is not a concern I think the diode is best
[02:18:38] <zeeshan> well that depends
[02:18:42] <zeeshan> if its a second its not a big deal
[02:18:51] <zeeshan> cause this is the solenoid that disengages the tool clamp
[02:18:57] <zeeshan> but if its 5-6 seconds
[02:18:59] <zeeshan> that can be annoying :)
[02:19:20] <jfigie> I can't imagine it being longer than a second
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[02:19:37] <zeeshan> im assuming the electrical characteristics of the diode
[02:19:42] <zeeshan> determine the time?
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[02:20:21] <jfigie> well somewhat. it is the forward voltage and nearly all diode are about the same 0.7V
[02:20:47] <zeeshan> i guess this isn't any different than the diodes that are built in parallel
[02:20:49] <zeeshan> in coils for relays
[02:20:49] <jfigie> the biggest factor is the inductance
[02:20:51] <zeeshan> or contactors
[02:21:29] <zeeshan> i unforonately dont have mcuh info on the specs of the hydraulic solenoid
[02:21:31] <jfigie> the diode needs to be able to handle the current that the coil has when energized
[02:21:33] <zeeshan> its an old bosch solenoid
[02:21:41] <zeeshan> it draws about 2.5A
[02:21:46] <zeeshan> _i think_
[02:21:52] <jfigie> So use a 5A diode
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[02:22:59] <jfigie> or even a smaller one. It only gets used for a few hundred milliseconds each time you turn off the solenoid
[02:23:30] <jfigie> Keep the diode close to the coil with short wires
[02:23:48] <zeeshan> hm that might not be possible
[02:23:53] <zeeshan> https://www.flickr.com/photos/128539016@N05/15433256520/
[02:23:58] <zeeshan> thats the connector for the solenoid
[02:24:24] <zeeshan> kinda hard to get a diode in there :)
[02:24:26] <jfigie> yep there are always compromises
[02:24:40] <zeeshan> maybe a RC snubber circuit might be better
[02:25:15] <jfigie> the leads to the solenoid are bundled together and that helps
[02:26:17] <jfigie> if the leads are twisted then even better
[02:27:02] <jfigie> I think a diode will be fine
[02:27:25] <zeeshan> what are the chances there is a diode already built in
[02:27:28] <zeeshan> i should look :)
[02:27:43] <zeeshan> impossible to find a manual for this
[02:28:38] <jfigie> if it is built in then you will have 2 diodes and that wont hurt either
[02:29:03] <jfigie> I doubt that there is one in there
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[02:31:03] <zeeshan> this is where i need an oscilliscope
[02:31:10] <zeeshan> i could measure the inrush current :/
[02:31:17] <zeeshan> and see if it has a diode
[02:34:03] <PCW> or a lab supply (set current limit to 1A and check the voltage across the coil both ways)
[02:34:22] <zeeshan> dont have a lab supply :/
[02:34:36] <zeeshan> ive been eyeing the rigol oscilloscope
[02:34:44] <zeeshan> maybe i should bite the bullet and purchase
[02:36:04] <zeeshan> when most cnc machines are turned off
[02:36:19] <zeeshan> cnc mills that is.. how do they prevent the table from falling down
[02:36:25] <zeeshan> when the machine is powered down
[02:37:02] <jfigie> I suspect that the motor that drives an axis that can fall will have a parking brake
[02:38:04] <jfigie> what is your machine
[02:38:06] <jfigie> ?
[02:38:13] <zeeshan> mikron wf21c
[02:38:16] <zeeshan> youre right
[02:38:19] <zeeshan> it doesnt have a diode built in.
[02:38:20] <zeeshan> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ti3t81sxkky36in/AAAGffuUME_d8rCreVbBW2Jxa/SCHEMATICS?dl=0#lh:null-maho_400e_schematics_11.png
[02:38:23] <zeeshan> using a similar machines schematics
[02:38:28] <zeeshan> they have an external diode. it looks like
[02:38:46] <zeeshan> but they had it in the machine.
[02:38:49] <zeeshan> machine controller
[02:38:51] <zeeshan> not at the solenoid
[02:40:15] <jfigie> that looks like a nice machine
[02:40:32] <zeeshan> :D
[02:40:38] <zeeshan> i hope to get it running in a couple weeks
[02:40:44] <zeeshan> just trying to finish up the controller wiring
[02:40:47] <jfigie> 3 motion axis?
[02:41:05] <zeeshan> yes
[02:41:16] <zeeshan> but im converting to 5 axis
[02:42:28] <jfigie> adding rotary axes on the table?
[02:42:32] <zeeshan> yes
[02:42:49] <zeeshan> id like to add a trunion table
[02:43:19] <ssi> this is astounding
[02:43:19] <zeeshan> but iu wanna make it so i can remove it too
[02:43:20] <ssi> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/509430931/faradair-new-eco-aircraft-called-beha
[02:43:27] <zeeshan> ssi
[02:43:28] <zeeshan> wtf mate
[02:43:31] <zeeshan> did you hurt yourself
[02:43:36] <ssi> a little
[02:43:40] <zeeshan> how
[02:43:48] <ssi> I stepped in a 4' deep hole in the dark
[02:43:53] <zeeshan> lol
[02:43:54] <zeeshan> wtf
[02:43:58] <zeeshan> random 4' hole?
[02:44:11] <ssi> I was in a ww2 antiaircraft bunker on an island
[02:44:21] <ssi> concrete hole
[02:44:21] <ssi> heh
[02:44:30] <zeeshan> ow
[02:46:48] <jfigie> what was the original controller Heidenhain?
[02:46:55] <zeeshan> jfigie: yes tnc150
[02:47:11] <zeeshan> ssi did you know the amc drives
[02:47:14] <jfigie> By BP had a TNC 151
[02:47:15] <zeeshan> have an internal brake resistor
[02:47:21] <zeeshan> jfigie: haha nice!
[02:47:25] <zeeshan> almsot the exact same controller.
[02:47:27] <ssi> no
[02:47:37] <jfigie> one day I went to turn in on and nothing happened
[02:47:41] <zeeshan> yea i was just looking at the manual
[02:47:43] <zeeshan> http://www.a-m-c.com/download/datasheet/be25a20ac.pdf
[02:47:48] <zeeshan> last comment in the red bullet point
[02:47:50] <zeeshan> on the right
[02:47:54] <zeeshan> "internal brake/shunt resistor"
[02:48:21] <zeeshan> jfigie: theyre stupid expensive to fix
[02:48:25] <ssi> nsice
[02:49:00] <jfigie> yes Hiedenhain said I could get if fixed for $4000.
[02:49:18] <zeeshan> haha
[02:49:27] <zeeshan> only thing worth keeping from that controller
[02:49:29] <zeeshan> is the glass scales
[02:49:31] <jfigie> but being about 20 years old at the time I didn't thing that was a good ides
[02:49:32] <zeeshan> and interpolator boards
[02:49:48] <jfigie> I used the analog boards
[02:49:55] <jfigie> with the original encoders
[02:50:03] <zeeshan> you had scales
[02:50:07] <zeeshan> ?
[02:50:16] <zeeshan> you must have had em
[02:50:17] <jfigie> encoders on the motos=rs
[02:50:20] <jfigie> motors
[02:50:21] <zeeshan> wow
[02:50:25] <zeeshan> i didnt know that controller worked like that
[02:50:55] <jfigie> http://www.machineability.com/Bridgeport_series_II.html
[02:51:17] <zeeshan> wow
[02:51:21] <zeeshan> thats a BIG ass bridgeport
[02:52:42] <zeeshan> http://www.machineability.com/BPseriesII_files/EncoderBd.jpg
[02:52:45] <zeeshan> i really like how you did that.
[02:52:58] <jfigie> thanks
[02:53:06] <zeeshan> howd you connect wires
[02:53:09] <zeeshan> to that red header thing
[02:53:11] <jfigie> I had to do some reverse engineering
[02:53:13] <zeeshan> on the bottom
[02:53:20] <zeeshan> thats a 800$ board
[02:53:21] <zeeshan> btw
[02:53:25] <zeeshan> :D
[02:53:38] <jfigie> I sold the other boards
[02:54:00] <zeeshan> see youre smart
[02:54:01] <zeeshan> you figured it out
[02:54:19] <zeeshan> https://www.flickr.com/photos/128539016@N05/15536189301/
[02:54:27] <zeeshan> i had the same board
[02:54:29] <zeeshan> couldnt figure it out
[02:54:32] <zeeshan> i wish i talked to you before
[02:54:32] <zeeshan> lol
[02:54:37] <jfigie> yes that is just like mine
[02:54:56] <zeeshan> pcw gave me a link to some othe rboards
[02:55:03] <zeeshan> i paid like 60 bux for them
[02:55:28] <zeeshan> https://www.flickr.com/photos/128539016@N05/15188551783/
[02:55:29] <zeeshan> bottom right
[02:55:34] <zeeshan> i like how theyre compact
[02:56:26] <zeeshan> i bought some molex connectors
[02:56:31] <jfigie> yes. I found out about those after mine was done
[02:56:39] <zeeshan> im gonna chop the wire off and plug em in
[02:56:42] <zeeshan> hopefully it works.
[02:56:54] <zeeshan> the board you have
[02:56:59] <zeeshan> did it get powrted by 5V?
[02:57:13] <jfigie> 5 and 15V
[02:57:37] <jfigie> above the board is a 15V and 5 V supply
[02:57:56] <zeeshan> very clean conversion :D
[02:59:40] <jfigie> thank you. the encoders have sine and cosine outputs. and the analog board has comparitors that resolve the sine and cos cycles into smaller increments.
[02:59:59] <ssi> resolvers then
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[03:00:05] <ssi> I actually rather like resolvers
[03:00:08] <jfigie> not resolbers
[03:00:12] <zeeshan> no theyre not resolvers
[03:00:14] <jfigie> resolvers
[03:00:16] <ssi> no?
[03:00:40] <ssi> oh I know what you mean
[03:00:49] <zeeshan> i forget why
[03:00:55] <zeeshan> but i went through this a while ago with pcw
[03:00:55] <ssi> resolvers are transformers
[03:00:55] <zeeshan> haha
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[03:00:59] <ssi> the analog encoders aren't
[03:00:59] <jfigie> no instead of square a quad b they are sine and cosine
[03:01:46] <zeeshan> jfigie: that work you did on the series 1
[03:01:48] <zeeshan> holy cow
[03:01:58] <ssi> yeah that's insanity
[03:02:05] <ssi> I can't imagine putting that much work into a machine like that
[03:02:07] <zeeshan> he scraped the whole table
[03:02:07] <zeeshan> lol
[03:02:13] <zeeshan> that is hardcore
[03:02:34] <jfigie> I mostly did it for the challenge
[03:02:49] <zeeshan> turned into the hulk after you were done?
[03:02:53] <XXCoder> heys
[03:03:00] <zeeshan> scraping looks labour intensive :)
[03:03:28] <jfigie> I scraped 1/4 of the table by hand then I borrowed a biax from a guy I know
[03:03:28] <ssi> I tried to scrape a piece of durabar flat once
[03:03:29] <ssi> gave up on it :P
[03:03:55] <jfigie> I will never scrap something that big by hand again
[03:04:00] <zeeshan> haha
[03:04:01] <zeeshan> :D
[03:04:03] <jfigie> Biax is the only way to go
[03:04:26] <zeeshan> looks like an expensive tool
[03:04:33] <XXCoder> nahh toothbrush is best ;)
[03:04:43] <zeeshan> lol
[03:04:51] <zeeshan> wow they range from 400+
[03:04:51] <jfigie> yes he bought his off from crags list
[03:04:56] <zeeshan> brand new for 1500
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[03:05:04] <jfigie> new they are $thousands
[03:05:11] <jfigie> i think
[03:06:15] <zeeshan> man
[03:06:18] <zeeshan> im looking at my old pics
[03:06:24] <zeeshan> i dont see a single diode in the controller.
[03:06:29] <zeeshan> i wonder where the hell it was
[03:08:54] <jfigie> The problem with standard BP series I is that the tables develop a crown over the years form clamping things to the t slots
[03:09:08] <jfigie> the pulling force eventually warps the table
[03:09:41] <jfigie> so a typical machine will be 2 or 3 thousandths high in the middle
[03:13:58] <zeeshan> "table compensation in emc"
[03:13:58] <zeeshan> :D
[03:14:09] <zeeshan> that would be kinda cool
[03:14:11] <zeeshan> probe your table
[03:14:16] <zeeshan> generate a compensation table
[03:14:36] <jfigie> I have seen discussion about that for PC board milling
[03:14:48] <zeeshan> https://www.flickr.com/photos/128539016@N05/15867896489/
[03:14:52] <zeeshan> i found board :D
[03:15:31] <zeeshan> https://www.flickr.com/photos/128539016@N05/15866490408/
[03:15:39] <zeeshan> tell me thats a diode.
[03:15:41] * zeeshan looks up
[03:15:54] <zeeshan> son of a.
[03:15:55] <zeeshan> its a rectifier
[03:15:57] <jfigie> those gold things are resistors
[03:16:27] <jfigie> the square things are bridge rectifiers
[03:16:41] <jfigie> which are 4 diodes
[03:16:46] <zeeshan> i know those resistors are the braking resistors
[03:16:53] <zeeshan> for the servos
[03:17:08] <zeeshan> but the cap and the bridge rectifier i think were used for 24vdc control supply
[03:17:25] <jfigie> probably
[03:17:33] <zeeshan> these mystery diodes that were in parallel with the solenoid are no where to be found
[03:17:49] <zeeshan> Tom_itx was right
[03:17:54] <zeeshan> ill need to do another digikey order :(
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[03:25:00] * Tom_itx snickers
[03:25:06] <zeeshan> haha
[03:25:40] <Tom_itx> get some fast ones
[03:25:51] <zeeshan> maybe i can find these diodes locally
[03:25:58] <zeeshan> 5A doesnt seem like a lotta current :P
[03:26:58] <jfigie> fast ones are good but they don't need to be fast
[03:27:18] <jfigie> reverse recovery is not important here
[03:27:38] <zeeshan> ah shit
[03:27:43] <zeeshan> i forgot they need to be 24vdc too
[03:27:49] <zeeshan> i was looking at my zener diode collection
[03:27:53] <zeeshan> theyre all low voltage stuff :/
[03:27:59] <Tom_itx> 24v isn't much
[03:28:18] <zeeshan> i have 1n750A
[03:28:20] <zeeshan> its no good
[03:28:31] <zeeshan> 4.7V, 75mA
[03:29:18] <zeeshan> if i want it to operate at 24vdc
[03:29:23] <zeeshan> i need to get 24vdc zener diode?
[03:29:26] <zeeshan> or slightly more?
[03:29:40] <jfigie> dont use a zener
[03:29:52] <zeeshan> what kind to use :)
[03:29:56] <Tom_itx> not for blocking
[03:30:02] <Tom_itx> standard diode
[03:30:09] <jfigie> general purpose
[03:30:12] <Tom_itx> 2x voltage
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[03:30:28] <Tom_itx> if it's 24v make sure it will take at least 48v
[03:30:57] <jfigie> even a In4007 would work
[03:31:07] <jfigie> 1 amp continuous 30 A peak
[03:31:16] <jfigie> easy to find
[03:31:41] <jfigie> actually 1n4004
[03:31:51] <zeeshan> http://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/SB540E-G/641-1419-2-ND/2075755
[03:32:42] <zeeshan> i thought we wanted 5A
[03:32:49] <zeeshan> i actually dont know whow much the solenoid consumes
[03:32:54] <zeeshan> i should measur eit.
[03:32:54] <jfigie> that one will never fail in this application
[03:33:07] <Tom_itx> find it in single quantities now
[03:33:09] <zeeshan> i wish the firgging solenoid had a marking on it.
[03:33:15] <zeeshan> about how much it consumes
[03:33:16] <zeeshan> so annoying
[03:33:19] <zeeshan> it says 24vDC thats it
[03:33:28] <jfigie> amp meter?
[03:33:35] <zeeshan> jfigie: so if i have the solenoid in parallel
[03:33:47] <jfigie> with the diode
[03:34:00] <zeeshan> but the parallel branch of the solenoid is about i would say..... 8 feet from where the enclosure it
[03:34:02] <zeeshan> *is
[03:34:06] <zeeshan> so you think that'll cause huge issues?
[03:34:37] <jfigie> the wires to and from are together so I think it will be OK
[03:35:00] <Tom_itx> the diode isn't directly across the coil?
[03:35:05] <zeeshan> Tom_itx: exactly
[03:35:16] <Tom_itx> you may want it as close to that as you can
[03:35:17] <jfigie> the currents will be in opposite directions so the fields will cancel
[03:35:26] <jfigie> in the long wires
[03:35:34] <zeeshan> https://www.flickr.com/photos/128539016@N05/15433256520/
[03:35:38] <zeeshan> there is no clean way to mount it there
[03:36:01] <zeeshan> ps that area is a lot cleaner now :)
[03:36:12] <zeeshan> it had years of crud back there
[03:36:48] <zeeshan> i noticed that this solenoid was demanding on the power supply when i was doing this:
[03:37:03] <zeeshan> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n39CqxrhkVg
[03:37:08] <Tom_itx> http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/SB5100E-G/641-1421-1-ND/2075785
[03:37:19] <zeeshan> i was shorting the +24vdc wire physically on the power supply rail
[03:37:22] <zeeshan> and saw big sparks :)
[03:37:26] <jfigie> It had long wires before so I don't see why ii shouldn't work now
[03:38:52] <jfigie> you probably saw sparks from the inductive kick back that is what he diode is for.
[03:38:59] <zeeshan> yes
[03:39:14] <zeeshan> i think this is the only loose end in the 24vdc circuits
[03:39:16] <zeeshan> and i can start wiring it
[03:39:29] <zeeshan> all the contactors, relay coils have flybacks
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[03:41:00] <zeeshan> ugh i cant decide
[03:41:05] <zeeshan> if i should try to power the system up right now
[03:41:09] <zeeshan> with no loads attached
[03:41:14] <zeeshan> to test my wiring
[03:41:20] <Tom_itx> oh go ahead
[03:41:25] <zeeshan> ive never turned on a vfd
[03:41:26] <Tom_itx> you gotta do it sometime
[03:41:28] <zeeshan> with no motor leads attached
[03:41:37] <jfigie> it should be ok
[03:41:37] <zeeshan> and i only have 15A avaiable in this room
[03:41:38] <Tom_itx> can't tell you about that
[03:41:49] <Tom_itx> it will either work or get very dark
[03:41:52] <zeeshan> hahaha
[03:42:00] <Tom_itx> get a flashlight
[03:42:03] <Tom_itx> first
[03:42:31] <zeeshan> i think the VFD will go in error mode
[03:42:36] <zeeshan> when it detects a phase error
[03:42:39] <zeeshan> on the load side
[03:42:44] <zeeshan> i forget, ive read about it
[03:42:46] <zeeshan> fak it time to try
[03:42:57] * Tom_itx puts up the blast shield
[03:43:02] <jfigie> Thats ok if it errors
[03:43:04] <zeeshan> only got 14awg wire
[03:43:09] <jfigie> it wont hurt anything
[03:43:10] <zeeshan> to connect to the mains
[03:43:11] <zeeshan> ahhaha
[03:44:01] <Tom_itx> i didn't have my transformers in phase the first try
[03:45:02] <zeeshan> ugh
[03:45:08] <zeeshan> i just realized, without the 24vdc hooked up
[03:45:14] <zeeshan> none of the contactors will work
[03:45:18] <zeeshan> and no power will get to the device
[03:45:18] <zeeshan> haha
[03:45:37] <zeeshan> ill hook up the 24vdc circuit then move this whole thing to the garage
[03:45:38] <zeeshan> and try it out
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[03:46:19] <jfigie> Is machine in garage?
[03:46:22] <zeeshan> yes
[03:46:26] <zeeshan> but the controller is in my bedroom
[03:46:27] <zeeshan> haha
[03:46:29] <jfigie> is it heated
[03:46:31] <zeeshan> yea
[03:46:36] <zeeshan> but its a pain to work in there
[03:46:51] <jfigie> are you in cold climate?
[03:47:03] <zeeshan> cause my damn welding table is occupied by a 200 lb chunk of steel that im welding up
[03:47:07] <zeeshan> yes
[03:47:11] <zeeshan> near toronto canada
[03:47:16] <jfigie> I am in Wisconsin
[03:47:29] <zeeshan> not far away
[03:47:39] <jfigie> Milwaukee
[03:48:13] <zeeshan> if lake michigan and lake huron werent in the way
[03:48:20] <zeeshan> i could drive straight across to milwaukee :)
[03:48:41] <jfigie> yes it can be bad getting around Chicago
[03:50:10] <roycroft> i grew up in chicago
[03:50:17] <roycroft> it's always been bad getting around chicago
[03:50:57] <jfigie> zeeshan good luck on your retrofit. I am a bit envious :) Anyway I am going to go now
[03:51:02] <roycroft> and worse getting through chicago
[03:51:13] <zeeshan> thanks for the help!
[03:51:20] <zeeshan> no need to be envious
[03:51:23] <zeeshan> your series 2 is a beast
[03:51:34] <jfigie> I like your machine
[03:51:41] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/kIICwO3.png
[03:51:43] <zeeshan> since im a nerd
[03:51:47] <zeeshan> 13 * 50
[03:51:54] <zeeshan> 650km
[03:52:01] <zeeshan> 406 miles
[03:52:02] <zeeshan> thats nothing
[03:52:02] <zeeshan> haha
[03:52:11] <jfigie> :)
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[05:01:19] <zeeshan> want to double check this
[05:01:25] <zeeshan> on the mesa7i77
[05:01:33] <zeeshan> when the input has no 24VDC going to it
[05:01:35] <zeeshan> it floats at 0V
[05:01:41] <zeeshan> to make it change state
[05:01:45] <zeeshan> i give it 24VDC right?
[05:01:50] <zeeshan> itll go from 0 to 1 then?
[05:07:41] <renesis> typically you dont really 'float' at a voltage
[05:08:21] <renesis> its 0v or its floating, if its floating, voltage is going to depend on parasitic capacitance and what youre referencing
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[07:50:18] <Jymm> Deejay: Morning
[07:50:27] <Deejay> moin
[07:50:46] <Deejay> Ug Jymm ;)
[07:50:56] <Jymm> Deejay: =)
[07:51:19] <unfy> o/
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[15:49:13] * Loetmichel just makes 3 red X in the calendar... the scanner we had to do this year just arrived in time.. and is already modified and packaged for delivery... $me is just cleaning his workshop and then: vacation 'til 06.jan.2015
[15:49:43] <skunkworks> Have fun!
[15:49:53] <Loetmichel> ... something was delivered in time... unbelieveable ;-)
[15:49:57] <skunkworks> the forklift incident wasn't as bad as first thought?
[15:50:27] <Loetmichel> it was, but customer agreed to accept the delivery, pay the invouice and then sort the repairs out next year
[15:50:52] <skunkworks> great!
[15:50:58] <Loetmichel> they just wnted to burn budget (end of year)+
[15:51:04] <skunkworks> things are looking up!
[15:52:03] <Loetmichel> so they are fine with paying the damaged goods and sorting this out next jey, main concern was to burn the budget ;-9
[15:52:14] <Loetmichel> government agencys...
[15:54:17] <ssi> dang
[15:54:25] <ssi> mcmaster sells target-size plug gages
[15:54:29] <ssi> but they're UNHOLY expensive :(
[15:54:39] <ssi> $203.18 for the size I need
[15:54:45] <ssi> for 25 pieces
[15:55:14] <ssi> this is why tenth-tolerances cost so damn much :(
[15:55:31] <ssi> http://www.mcmaster.com/#2149a15/=v3bw7h
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[15:59:37] <andypugh> ssi: Make 50 parts to nominal size on your lathe, slightly carelessly, then measure them to choose the ones that suit.
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[16:00:15] <ssi> heheh yeah I know
[16:00:24] <ssi> we were talking about that yesterday actually
[16:00:32] <ssi> dan and I order a lot of tooling from Pacific Tool and Gauge
[16:00:39] <ssi> they make rifle chamber reamers and associated tooling
[16:00:56] <ssi> and their system has a pilot bushing on everything, and they make bushings in .0002" steps so you can select the one that fits your bore tightest
[16:01:21] <ssi> we were talking about how they run their shop to hold those tolerances, and it occurred to me that they probably just make a billion of those bushings and sort them
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[16:04:58] <cradek> that's funny and I bet you're right
[16:04:59] <archivist> I like the make a billion, while(barrel polish measure) >right size
[16:05:25] <archivist> how ball bearing balls are made
[16:06:10] <ssi> yep
[16:06:13] <archivist> and parts like model motor shafts
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[16:06:46] <ssi> well I had the idea to get that tenth-step plug gage set based on a video I watched
[16:06:50] <ssi> I think it was oxtoolco
[16:07:02] <ssi> about holding a tight bore tolerance by lapping and checking with one of those sets
[16:07:11] <ssi> I got the laps and lapping compound he recommended
[16:07:34] <ssi> but I don't really need the tenth-step gage set, cause I just need to lap it until the thompson shaft that needs to fit the bar just fits hydraulically
[16:08:00] <ssi> I have a .374" reamer, I'm hoping .001 undersize will be enough for heat treating and lapping to size
[16:08:31] * JT-Shop needs to clean off the work table :(
[16:09:01] <ssi> it's amazing how fast they get cluttered up
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[18:02:42] <andypugh> I just burned my finger testing whether this Vreg needed a heat sink. So I guess that is question-answered then.
[18:03:10] <andypugh> It’s a live-tab device, which is slightly annoying.
[18:03:57] <zeeshan> rofl
[18:04:07] <zeeshan> those th ings get frigging hot
[18:04:11] <zeeshan> which vreg model
[18:04:30] <andypugh> TL783CKCSE3
[18:08:01] <archivist> someone should write up the finger state depending on temperature
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[18:10:27] <andypugh> I am fairly sure I have seen that, though in a more medical context.
[18:10:34] <andypugh> It wasn’t very nice.
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[18:14:39] <archivist> I can imagine
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[18:19:04] <zeeshan> yay
[18:19:06] <zeeshan> good news today
[18:19:09] <zeeshan> got a TA job for winter
[18:19:09] <zeeshan> :D
[18:19:15] <zeeshan> was getting worried
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[19:03:26] <jfigie> zeeshan I finally came to realize that your z axis brake is a solenoid operated parking brake. the brake is applied by a spring in the motor and released by applying 24 V to the solenoid.
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[19:03:58] <zeeshan> jfigie: hahah
[19:04:00] <zeeshan> that makes sense.
[19:04:06] <zeeshan> that would explain the weird symbol
[19:04:50] <zeeshan> im about to go to the electrical store
[19:04:54] <zeeshan> to buy some diodes :)
[19:05:12] <zeeshan> i guess i need two now
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[19:05:26] <jfigie> yep
[19:05:30] <zeeshan> because its a solenoid not a resistor in the brake
[19:05:42] <zeeshan> thank you
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[19:06:27] <jfigie> no problem I sorry it took so long for it to sink in.
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[19:07:23] <pcw_home> You can determine the brake current by measuring the resistance of the coil
[19:07:45] <zeeshan> pcw_home: its 20w
[19:07:49] <zeeshan> says on the motor
[19:07:56] <zeeshan> 24 / 20 i mean
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[19:08:01] <zeeshan> 1.2A
[19:08:12] <pcw_home> 20/24
[19:08:16] <zeeshan> whoops :)
[19:08:17] <zeeshan> P = V I
[19:08:21] <zeeshan> V = P / I :(
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[19:09:02] <pcw_home> so a IN4001 diode is fine
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[19:09:09] <zeeshan> you know me
[19:09:13] <zeeshan> oversize it
[19:09:19] <zeeshan> i found some 400V 6A diodes
[19:09:22] <zeeshan> 6a4
[19:09:27] <zeeshan> theyre cheap locally
[19:09:35] <zeeshan> 2$ for 2
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[19:09:55] <pcw_home> rectifier diodes are cheap in general
[19:10:08] <zeeshan> is there any reason not to oversize it?
[19:10:18] <zeeshan> other than cost
[19:10:24] <zeeshan> and physical size
[19:10:43] <pcw_home> no but no reason either (wiring ease may be an issue)
[19:11:12] <archivist> what use, some will get hot, faster ones run cooler
[19:11:42] <pcw_home> using a 1A diode for 0.866 A very low duty cycle is fine
[19:12:21] <pcw_home> this is flyback diode on a brake solenoid
[19:12:23] <jfigie> IN400X diodes can take much higher peak currents 30 A
[19:12:49] <pcw_home> peak will be~ 0.866 A
[19:12:54] <jfigie> but does anyone even use or sell in4001 @ only 50V?
[19:13:16] <pcw_home> I think we always get 1N4007s
[19:13:23] <jfigie> I would use a higher voltage since they are probalby just as cheap
[19:13:27] <pcw_home> same price
[19:13:52] <jfigie> they are probably all in4007 but just marked differently
[19:14:54] <archivist> if you are brave, make an avalanche tester and see
[19:15:20] <jfigie> not worth the time for diodes that cost a few cents
[19:16:04] <archivist> I used some in an application and had to swiftly replace with schottky
[19:16:31] <jfigie> 1N400X have slow recovery
[19:16:37] <pcw_home> fine for a low rep rate flyback
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[19:16:43] <archivist> I was told I would get a "transformer", it was a switcher !
[19:17:03] <jfigie> if you use them in a SMPS they will act kind of like a short
[19:17:23] <zeeshan> ive blown up a smps before :/
[19:17:29] <zeeshan> w/ a solenoid
[19:18:44] <zeeshan> https://www.flickr.com/photos/128539016@N05/16058356335/
[19:18:47] <zeeshan> something seems a bit off here :)
[19:19:10] <zeeshan> shouldnt the diode be rated for ALL the solenoids
[19:19:11] <archivist> we built one of these http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2003/2003_07_19_a_flasher/P1010002.JPG and the diode unsoldered themselves, those pics are with the fast diodes
[19:19:28] <zeeshan> when the circuits are parallel like that
[19:19:31] <pcw_home> Unlike a transformer /rectifier power supply a SMPS's main filter capacitor
[19:19:32] <pcw_home> can not absorb power dumped into the power supplies output
[19:19:58] <pcw_home> (so they are not suited to servo motor power supplies for example)
[19:20:08] <zeeshan> well you can put a big ass diode
[19:20:12] <zeeshan> in parallel with the stepper?
[19:20:23] <zeeshan> i mean parallel with the stepper drive
[19:20:52] <pcw_home> The diode is only for one inductor
[19:21:25] <zeeshan> how does the 6a4 know whether to stop the back emf for the brake
[19:21:28] <zeeshan> or the hyd solenoid?
[19:21:32] <zeeshan> since its parallel with both
[19:21:46] <zeeshan> so if both the z-brake and hyd solenoid were activated at the exact same time for example
[19:21:48] <pcw_home> because its across the brake coil
[19:21:53] <jfigie> You wont have the 2 solenoids in parallel
[19:22:11] <jfigie> they are separate circuits
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[19:22:53] <pcw_home> current only flows in the diode when the brake coil power is turned off
[19:23:16] <pcw_home> (and only for about 100 ms max)
[19:24:37] <zeeshan> i have to again say this..
[19:24:43] <zeeshan> im so glad i didnt do ee.
[19:24:45] <zeeshan> i'd be lost :P
[19:26:13] <pcw_home> on an inductor V=di/dt
[19:26:19] <zeeshan> yes
[19:26:44] <zeeshan> thats what im saying though
[19:26:48] <zeeshan> if both solenoids were activated at the same time
[19:27:11] <pcw_home> they are not on the same circuit
[19:27:31] <jfigie> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2fj8HWg0FnNUGpnVks1ZXZWSHc/view?usp=sharing
[19:27:50] <pcw_home> each inductor needs its own flyback/suppression circuit
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[19:28:26] <zeeshan> jfigie: if you close those two switches at the same time? :P
[19:28:39] <zeeshan> okay i get it
[19:28:42] * zeeshan is slow
[19:28:55] <jfigie> sure but they are controlled independently
[19:29:41] <zeeshan> is it better to put the switch at the +24vdc side or -24vdc
[19:29:44] <zeeshan> i thought it didnt matter?
[19:30:18] <zeeshan> the way you've got it in your schematic makes more sense
[19:30:32] <jfigie> doesn't matter. It is usually done they way I show if you use solid state switches like FETs
[19:32:14] <jfigie> for mechanical contacts it make no difference where you put the switch.
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[19:34:57] <pcw_home> High side switching is a little better in general as a wiring short to ground cause a fault rather than actuating the device
[19:35:34] <jfigie> agreed
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[19:35:54] <pcw_home> (low side switching is common for solid state devices because its easier= cheaper)
[19:36:15] <jfigie> my original point
[19:36:46] <pcw_home> but if you notice, your Maho used high side drivers
[19:37:47] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/bs5lfCA.png
[19:38:08] <zeeshan> blue is common :)
[19:38:39] <jfigie> looks good for hydraulic solenoid
[19:39:22] <zeeshan> btw
[19:39:26] <zeeshan> i found the mystery diode.
[19:39:28] <pcw_home> assuming red is +24V...
[19:39:37] <zeeshan> yes pcw_home
[19:39:49] <zeeshan> the diode was soldered inside a terminal block.
[19:39:54] <pcw_home> if its 120vac you will have fireworks
[19:40:14] <zeeshan> no 120vac near control stuff :)
[19:40:41] <zeeshan> even at eaton, i used to argue with my boss about 120vac control stuff
[19:40:49] <zeeshan> its putting people at unecessary risk
[19:40:54] <zeeshan> like your e-stop button is frigging 120vac
[19:41:03] <zeeshan> you go to press it and somehow manage to break it
[19:41:14] <zeeshan> and somehow become part of the circuit
[19:41:18] <zeeshan> that wouldnt be too good
[19:41:50] <pcw_home> 120VAC is common in industrial control panels (not so common on CNCs thank goodness)
[19:41:57] <zeeshan> yea!
[19:42:02] <zeeshan> its because theyre being cheap asses
[19:42:06] <zeeshan> and dont wanna use a 24vdc supply
[19:42:31] <zeeshan> there were certain customers that would request a control transformer
[19:42:36] <zeeshan> so it'd go from 120vac 24vac.
[19:42:44] <zeeshan> which i guess wouldn't hurt as bad
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[19:43:07] <jfigie> 24VDC is becoming more common practice now days for industrial controls
[19:43:31] <jfigie> but still a low of 120 VAC stuff
[19:43:36] <jfigie> lot*
[19:43:40] <pcw_home> DC also allows better timing
[19:43:41] <roycroft> i don't think there's a way i could break the estop button on my brewing control panel that would expose me to 120vac
[19:43:51] <zeeshan> roycroft: oh trust me!
[19:43:53] <zeeshan> it can be done :P
[19:44:02] <roycroft> unless i opened up the panel and broke it from the inside
[19:44:10] <zeeshan> if the nut backs off
[19:44:12] <roycroft> the plunger mechanism that breaks the circuit is plastic
[19:44:13] <zeeshan> and the switch pops out
[19:44:39] <roycroft> the switch is held onto the panel by collar on the outside and two screws on the inside that press into the panel
[19:45:00] <roycroft> i'm not saying that there it's not a hazard with some estop switches
[19:45:13] <zeeshan> im just exagerrating with the e-stop case
[19:45:17] <zeeshan> theres no way that switch will come out
[19:45:19] <zeeshan> of a 22mm hole
[19:45:21] <roycroft> but i don't think mine is a risk
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[19:46:37] <roycroft> my greater concern is keeping water out of the panel
[19:46:48] <roycroft> i run 250vac/50a through that panel
[19:47:01] <zeeshan> do you know why its in nec and csa code
[19:47:10] <zeeshan> that your main panel has to be at least i think 3 or 4 feet off the ground?
[19:47:34] <roycroft> and it is right next to a brewing system that has up to 150L of hot liquid sloshing around making messes and sometimes spilling on the floor
[19:48:01] <zeeshan> you sir need a nema 4 panel :P
[19:48:18] <roycroft> i think i did a good job building mine
[19:48:23] <zeeshan> i thought it was interesting .. the 3-4ft rule is cause
[19:48:27] <zeeshan> when your basement gets flooded for example
[19:48:28] <roycroft> all the indicators and activators and pids are water-resistant
[19:48:34] <zeeshan> you still have some time. to shut off the electrical stuff
[19:49:05] <roycroft> and i've put a seal around where the panel sits on the enclosure
[19:49:08] <jfigie> roycroft use IP65 or better
[19:49:21] <roycroft> i haven't hosed it down to see if any water gets inside
[19:49:34] <roycroft> but i think that incidental water on the panel would be ok
[19:49:44] <roycroft> and i do have the system on a gfci breaker
[19:50:01] <zeeshan> you know even some indoor places
[19:50:04] <roycroft> honestly, though, i've never gotten a single drop of water on the panel
[19:50:05] <zeeshan> a lot of commercial places..
[19:50:11] <zeeshan> they requre water protection for panels?
[19:50:14] <roycroft> but i still built it to be as safe as i could
[19:50:26] <zeeshan> its cause when the fire sprinklers go off
[19:50:30] <roycroft> sure
[19:50:32] <zeeshan> they dont want an electrical fire
[19:50:35] <zeeshan> i thought that was kinda cool
[19:50:39] <roycroft> i don't have those in my garage btw
[19:50:43] <roycroft> fire sprinklers
[19:50:44] <zeeshan> i know :)
[19:50:45] <zeeshan> me either
[19:50:57] <zeeshan> its rare to find just a standard nema 1
[19:51:02] <zeeshan> inside a commercial place
[19:51:17] <roycroft> http://www.zymurgasm.com/NewBrewSystem/ControlPanel/img_0827.jpeg
[19:51:21] <roycroft> that's the panel
[19:51:27] <zeeshan> thats sexy
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[19:52:04] <roycroft> http://www.zymurgasm.com/NewBrewSystem/ControlPanel/RearPanel.jpeg
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[19:52:08] <roycroft> the rear panel, before paint
[19:52:20] <roycroft> the rear panel is not as water-resistant as the front
[19:52:24] <roycroft> but it's also not as exposed
[19:52:54] <DaViruz> funky connectors, never seen anything quite like it
[19:52:59] <zeeshan> thats pretty
[19:53:00] <roycroft> btw, that's my sheldon horizontal mill in the background on the left, under cover
[19:53:09] <roycroft> which ones, daviruz?
[19:53:10] <zeeshan> http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p252/turbozee84/null_zps945bc7db.jpg
[19:53:18] <zeeshan> thats water rated
[19:53:24] <DaViruz> roycroft: the circular banjo locking
[19:53:26] <zeeshan> you can tell by the hood on the top
[19:53:31] <DaViruz> (rightmost)
[19:53:46] <roycroft> oh, those are pretty standard twist-locks
[19:53:57] <roycroft> the one on the lower right is the power inlet
[19:54:05] <DaViruz> probably a geographical thing
[19:54:16] <roycroft> the three on the top feed pumps, and the other two on the bottom are for heating elements
[19:54:20] <roycroft> yes, i'm in north america
[19:54:31] <roycroft> in the us and canada you'll find those quite commonly
[19:54:34] <DaViruz> sweden (north europe) :)
[19:54:59] <DaViruz> i guess we use various CEE-connectors for the same purpose
[19:55:03] <roycroft> i know there are european twist-lock ac connectors
[19:55:16] <roycroft> they don't seem to be as common there as they are in the us
[19:55:20] <roycroft> and they're a completely different design
[19:56:50] <roycroft> i use twist locks a lot in my shops
[19:57:13] <roycroft> having a plug come loose while i'm working is one of my biggest annoyances
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[20:16:20] <andypugh> Well, swapping the little switchmode for a linear reg running off the rectified 30V (50.5 V at the cap) worked a treat, it got radio synch inside a minute.
[20:17:10] <andypugh> PCW: Thanks for the warning on 6805, I ended up with a 125V-rated adjustable reg.
[20:20:45] <andypugh> Pictures of the new master-clock on a DIN rail here: https://plus.google.com/photos/108164504656404380542/albums/6084292312893766401?banner=pwa
[20:21:16] <pcw_home> VLF radio is probably right around the switching supplies frequency
[20:21:21] <cradek> I get a googl+ signin
[20:21:47] <andypugh> Ah
[20:21:56] <andypugh> Let me try the Picasa version.
[20:21:58] <DaViruz> I don't have permission to view this album
[20:22:11] <Tom_itx> andypugh glad you got it worked out
[20:22:47] * Loetmichel does a sacrilege: ice in the glass... -> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=15448
[20:22:51] <andypugh> https://picasaweb.google.com/108164504656404380542/UnionClock?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCLfkxP-0g7m8aw&feat=directlink
[20:23:20] <cradek> does the big ssr run the solenoid?
[20:23:50] <andypugh> Loetmichel: With the cask-strength stuff that’s OK as long as the ice cube is made from water from the distillery spring
[20:23:54] <andypugh> cradek: yes
[20:24:21] <cradek> did you have to rewind the solenoid?
[20:24:28] <andypugh> I did, yes.
[20:25:15] <cradek> what's the blue thing marked NA 1.6?
[20:25:38] <andypugh> 1.6A self-resetting fuse
[20:25:42] <cradek> aha
[20:25:47] <andypugh> On reflection, it should have been 1A
[20:25:54] <cradek> the label printer stuff will fall off in a month - I suggest sharpie instead
[20:26:04] <andypugh> Enough to protect the solenoids if the SSR sticks on.
[20:26:24] <cradek> 1.6 is too much?
[20:26:25] <andypugh> It’s special “permanent” label tape
[20:26:39] <cradek> oh maybe mine has just been crap
[20:26:44] <andypugh> The solenoid draws 1.2A. So the 1.6 won’t ever trip
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[20:27:01] <cradek> well to be precise, I know it was crap, I just assumed that meant it was all crap
[20:28:17] <andypugh> cradek: http://www.dymo.com/en-US/labelmanager-d1-labels/labelmanager-d1-labels/d1-permanent-labels-1-2-in
[20:29:04] <andypugh> (Why you would ever _want_ a label to fall off is a mystery)
[20:29:07] <cradek> andypugh: looks cool. may it keep time for many years.
[20:29:17] <Jymm> andypugh: Love the use of PC screws and the uncovered mains terminals ;)
[20:29:39] <Jymm> oh and the ferruls
[20:30:02] <Jymm> too expensive to get for small jobs.
[20:30:07] <andypugh> I will probably make a cover for the barrier terminal strip. But it will be in a metal wall box.
[20:30:37] <Jymm> andypugh: Cut up a soda bottle = terminal cover
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[20:31:31] <andypugh> The yellow pre-insulated crimps are a bit of a rerearity. The size below red. (0.2 to 0.5mm2). You would be forgiven for thinking that they don’t exist.
[20:31:55] <andypugh> (rarity)
[20:32:04] <Jymm> andypugh: yellow here is 10-12ga
[20:32:05] <cradek> andypugh: do you have a plan for trying to make sure the source stays with the hardware?
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[20:32:29] <cradek> consider in some years the signal format might need a tweak
[20:32:30] <andypugh> Jymm: We have “big” yellow and “small” yellow.
[20:32:36] <Jymm> andypugh: ah
[20:32:55] <andypugh> You probably do too. As I aid, the little ones are almost invisible in the market.
[20:32:56] <Jymm> MicroSD cards are waterproof
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[20:33:17] <andypugh> cradek: USB stick with 3 partitions, and a hard-copy I think.
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[20:34:50] <Jymm> andypugh: why three partitions?
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[20:35:35] <andypugh> FAT32 / NTFS / EXT3
[20:35:48] <andypugh> Who knows what will be supported in 20 years?
[20:37:20] <Jymm> andypugh: You could QR code the source too
[20:37:26] <andypugh> Which rather reminds me of this ongoing conversation: https://www.facebook.com/scal.meanie/posts/10152967067719052?comment_id=10152982234849052&offset=0&total_comments=28
[20:37:57] <andypugh> Jymm: I would imagine it would be easier to OCR the text by then.
[20:38:19] <Jymm> andypugh: http://ThisOldClock.co.uk/
[20:38:27] <Jymm> andypugh: Ha, I doubt it.
[20:38:48] <Jymm> andypugh: QR works now.
[20:38:54] <andypugh> (People discussing whether the PDP-11s that we retired 2 years ago could really be 11/40 if they had 2MB of RAM
[20:49:00] <jdh> I still have two 11/73s running
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[20:49:43] <andypugh> jdh: Commercially?
[20:49:49] <jdh> yes
[20:49:55] <andypugh> Great :-)
[20:50:22] <jdh> I find it amusing when IT says we have to get rid of our obsolete XP machines
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[20:50:50] <andypugh> It’s odd how people are happy for machiniry to keep on doing the job it was built for indefinitely, but feel the urge to change computers even when the job hasn’t changed.
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[20:51:46] <jdh> it has a qbus card that effectively sits on a CAMAC crate and does real time ultrasonic inspection
[20:51:54] <Jymm> andypugh: But ppl are not willing to PAY for machinery... Cheap china mentality.
[20:52:44] <jdh> today was day 1 of 17days off!
[20:53:22] <Jymm> jdh: And here you sit on irc ;)
[20:53:50] <PetefromTn_> well just got back from Knoxvegas ;)
[20:53:51] <jdh> just got back from 100km bike ride
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[20:54:18] <Jymm> jdh: Yeah... GO GET A LIFE for the next 16 days ya loser!
[20:55:36] <Jymm> jdh: Something fun, different, away from the norm.
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[20:56:02] <andypugh> I am going to a ski resort for christmas week
[20:56:10] <andypugh> It's a pity it hasn't snowed yet.
[20:56:37] <Jymm> andypugh: any prediction for snow?
[20:56:55] <andypugh> No
[20:57:00] <Jymm> Bummer
[20:57:07] <jdh> biking is fun. I'm going diving post-xmas in FLORIDA (for pete)
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[20:59:31] <Jymm> ah
[21:01:15] <andypugh> The bus picks me up at 03:15. I suppose I ought to pack.
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[21:22:57] <Jymm> Dont be a dumbass and throw shit at my owner.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1vz_5zAScs
[21:29:45] <renesis> yeah fuck dogs
[21:30:07] <renesis> same dog would prob get confused and tear a face off a kid
[21:30:11] <andypugh> I saw “ * graphic * “ and closed the window.
[21:30:32] <renesis> dogs are like kids with learning disabilities that never grow up, theyre literally just stupid
[21:30:40] <renesis> its not even that graphic
[21:31:58] <jfigie> currently my machine has encoders that produce 2500 counts per rev. This works out real nice because it translates to .001 mm of motion per encoder count. If I replace the encoder with one that is say 2048 counts per rev then I get .001220703125 mm per encoder count. Will this result in any kind of round off errors that accumulate after a lot of time or motion?
[21:34:39] <andypugh> jfigie: No. The encoder counts are kept as an integer, and divided as-required.
[21:35:25] <andypugh> The axis encoders will only count up and down by the table travels anyway.
[21:36:22] <andypugh> You can, in theory, accumulate encoder mis-counts over time with quadrature encoders. But you don’t need to worry about rounding errors.
[21:36:52] <andypugh> But do put in a lot of significant digits in the INI file.
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[21:40:33] <jfigie> next question if I have an absolute encoder that works as an quadrature encoder but also has a serial channel to get the abs position. how difficult is it to add something that will read the position, load the encoder count register and then call the axis homed at startup?
[21:41:19] <andypugh> There is some support for absolute encoders on the Mesa cards.
[21:41:52] <andypugh> But if you mean that you want to read serial data first, then switch to quadrature mode, then the answer would be “I don’t know” :-)
[21:42:50] <jfigie> I think I want to read the position first because the serial mode is not fast enough.
[21:43:28] <andypugh> In theory you could add a button that called a Python module that uses Pyserial to get the position, and then issued an MDI-G-code command (G10) to set the absolute axis position.
[21:44:30] <jfigie> Pyserial talks over the RS-232 port I assume?
[21:44:41] <andypugh> I assume so, I have never tried it.
[21:45:17] <t12_> pyserial speaks to rs232 ports yeah
[21:45:19] <t12_> or things like them
[21:45:23] <jfigie> I would need to convert the full duplex serial port to 1/2 duplex RS-485
[21:45:24] <t12_> do they really mean rs232
[21:45:27] <t12_> when they say serial
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[21:46:34] <andypugh> Good question, the servos that use the same wires for serial and quadrature tend to use their own format.
[21:46:47] <jfigie> I would need to multiplex all of the axis or else I need a serial port per axis
[21:47:04] <t12_> also consider that the transmission rate
[21:47:07] <t12_> may be totally nonstandard
[21:47:10] <t12_> like in the megabits/sec
[21:48:00] <andypugh> http://pico-systems.com/osc2.5/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=2&products_id=11
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[21:52:39] <jfigie> OK I want to use a Hiperface encoder, it is bidirectional asynchronous 38.4 K baud so I think that will work with a serial port. I just need to have a direction control for the transceiver
[21:53:47] <jfigie> The first step will be to see if I can talk to the encoder using something like Pyserial.
[21:54:46] <Deejay> gn8
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[21:57:12] <jfigie> If I want to use DC servomotors with no tachometers, are there any performance issues by bringing the velocity loop into HAL and let linuxcnc close the V loop based on the delta position from the encoder count register?
[21:58:37] <jfigie> so my motor drives will not be velocity mode but current mode instead.
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[22:01:15] <andypugh> You might want a faster-than-normal servo-thread rate.
[22:01:58] <jfigie> you mean faster than 1 msec rate?
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[22:02:41] <andypugh> But my machine seems to work fine in pure current-mode with even the motor commutation done in software. I do, however, have a resolver card that gives good-quality velocity feedback. (I don’t know if I am actually using it, though. I should check)
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[22:03:12] <andypugh> Yes. PCW seems to suggest that 4kHz is a lot better than 1kHz if the PC can handle it.
[22:03:39] <jfigie> The MB that I am planning on using has about 8uSec jitter for the 25used and 1 msec threads using latency-test
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[22:03:56] <andypugh> You should be able to go faster than 1kHz then.
[22:04:09] <jfigie> So I could run at 4 KHz
[22:04:31] <andypugh> Actually, ignore that statement. Latency has not a lot to do with how fast you can run the servo thread.
[22:04:39] <jfigie> right
[22:05:02] <andypugh> Are you counting encoder pulses in software?
[22:05:13] <jfigie> I was just going to ask how you determine the amount of processing time
[22:05:27] <jfigie> No I plan on using mesa cards to count encoder
[22:05:33] <andypugh> You might find that you are limited by base-thread rate to quite modest speeds at 2500 counts.
[22:06:05] <andypugh> I think that the Mesa cards have a high-quality velocity output, based on encoder-edge timestamps.
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[22:08:53] <jfigie> So if I have a machine set up and running how do measure how much processing time is left over in each servo cycle.
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[22:26:12] <andypugh> (Sorry, I was away)
[22:26:35] <andypugh> jfigie: I think that there is a HAL parameter that reports servo-thread time
[22:28:16] <jfigie> OK thanks I will look for it in the documentation.
[22:28:22] <andypugh> motion.servo.last-period maybe>
[22:28:24] <andypugh> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/motion.9.html
[22:28:50] <andypugh> That is probably the 1mS clock, in practice.
[22:29:05] <andypugh> there is motion-controller.time too
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[22:29:42] <andypugh> I think that if you open a halcmd window and “show all” you get the time taken for every function, and can add them up individually.
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