#linuxcnc | Logs for 2014-10-05

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[00:04:59] <zeeshan> rofl
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[00:33:57] <tjtr33> funny delta robot vid, near end they use vacuum end effector to pickup a smartphone, and use it to video the machine workspace http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdzefrrGBfw
[00:34:08] <tjtr33> may be an idea in that
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[01:10:39] <tjtr33> i was wondering about payloads on deltabots, found Fraunhoffer had this http://www.iws.fraunhofer.de/en/business_fields/joining/special_joining_technologies/equipment/pentapod_multifunctional_system.html it does cnc friction stir welding at up to 12kN, i suppose hard milling wont be a problem
[01:10:41] <tjtr33> it does cnc friction stir welding at up to 12kN, i suppose hard milling wont be a problem
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[01:35:34] <ssi> zeeshan: have you worked with the fanuc red cap motors with non-fanuc drives?
[01:36:10] <ssi> pcw_home_: to answer your earlier question, yes I have the fanuc drives
[01:36:15] <ssi> I'm not sure if I can run them on single phase tho
[01:36:55] <ssi> my plan is to replace them with parker gemini drives
[01:38:23] <jdh> I had one gemini that would destroy any com port you hooked it up to.
[01:39:04] <ssi> onoes!
[01:39:15] <ssi> i picked up a null modem cable today to see if I can program it
[01:39:28] <ssi> the software they keep talking about in the manual, I'm assuming it's windows software?
[01:39:43] <ssi> is it possible to program those drives with linux, just in a terminal emulator or something?
[01:39:45] <jdh> yeah, you can do everything through a plain terminal program
[01:40:03] <ssi> excellent
[01:40:14] <jdh> it does checksummed up/downloads though.
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[01:49:32] <zeeshan> ssi about 4 years ago
[01:49:38] <zeeshan> i can send you the manual
[01:49:41] <zeeshan> its like 500mb
[01:50:13] <zeeshan> one of the emag grinders
[01:50:18] <zeeshan> had one die
[01:50:21] <zeeshan> we had to replace it
[01:51:19] <ssi> I'd love to have the manual
[01:51:26] <ssi> I'm not sure which motor it is yet
[01:51:31] <ssi> I did get a part num for the encoder tho
[01:51:49] <ssi> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BzDBFDrIMAARcUP.jpg:large
[01:52:06] <ssi> thing is, I'm pretty sure it's a 4-bit greycode commutation encoder
[01:52:25] <ssi> which is a fanuc proprietary tihng, and using it with regular hall-effect commutation drives is going to require some special magic
[01:52:40] <zeeshan> do you know if its a series alpha i
[01:52:42] <zeeshan> or series alpha
[01:52:43] <zeeshan> or series beta
[01:52:48] <ssi> the motor?
[01:52:51] <zeeshan> yes
[01:52:54] <ssi> not sure
[01:53:02] <ssi> I have tried to find data on that in the books and been unsuccessful
[01:53:08] <ssi> need to keep digging, or pull a motor
[01:53:21] <ssi> that pic is from the Y motor, and I can get at the cap, but the motor itself is buried 14" deep in the column
[01:53:48] <zeeshan> does it use a fanuc servo driver
[01:53:52] <zeeshan> amplifier
[01:53:59] <ssi> it's a all in one servo drive
[01:54:01] <ssi> lemme find the pic
[01:56:01] <ssi> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BzJd_CmIAAIr9nA.jpg:large
[01:56:05] <ssi> not a great pic :/
[01:56:31] <zeeshan> itll have a part number on it
[01:56:32] <zeeshan> something like
[01:56:37] <ssi> AB something
[01:56:38] <ssi> yea
[01:56:42] <ssi> I'll have to walk over and look for it
[01:56:42] <zeeshan> a06b-6066-h003
[01:58:56] <zeeshan> try to get the servo motor number
[01:59:03] <zeeshan> should start with a06b
[01:59:54] <zeeshan> you cant miss the tag
[02:00:00] <zeeshan> its bright white or bright yellow
[02:00:44] <ssi> I just dunno if I can get to the tag on any motors without disassembling
[02:05:58] <ssi> climbed up on top to look at the Z servo, I can't find a tag on any side of it
[02:06:07] <ssi> don't see any on any visible face of the Y servo
[02:06:14] <ssi> and I'll hav eto remove bellows to get to the X
[02:06:20] <zeeshan> maybe you can decode it
[02:06:21] <ssi> got part nums off the spindle drive and servo drive tho
[02:06:25] <zeeshan> from what servo drive you have
[02:06:30] <zeeshan> based on the pinouts
[02:06:40] <zeeshan> servo drive #?
[02:07:04] <ssi> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BzJghsDIUAACuUI.jpg:large
[02:10:57] <zeeshan> looks like they use a different drive for servos for a lathe
[02:11:02] <zeeshan> it doesnt match up wit hthat part #
[02:11:08] <ssi> lul
[02:11:12] <ssi> they have a million diffrenet drives
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[02:32:21] <jdh> do the existing drivers work?
[02:32:38] <ssi> yes
[02:33:12] <jdh> wonder if you could part out the drives/servos
[02:38:31] <ssi> I can
[02:38:35] <ssi> but I want to keep the servos
[02:48:37] <pcw_home_> ebay the drives, the multichannel ones often to go for decent prices
[02:49:28] <pcw_home_> those look like PWM input vintage drives
[02:49:31] <ssi> yeah that's my plan
[02:49:39] <ssi> I'm just hoping I can use these motors
[02:49:51] <ssi> the motors ought to be pretty good once I get past the commutation issues
[02:49:59] <pcw_home_> so after 6057
[02:51:24] <pcw_home_> probably a 2500 line encoder
[02:51:34] <ssi> 3000
[02:51:57] <ssi> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BzDBFDrIMAARcUP.jpg:large
[02:54:08] <pcw_home_> standard quadrature + 4 bit gray code commutation track
[02:54:21] <ssi> yeah
[02:54:31] <ssi> do you have access to documentation on this fanuc stuff?
[02:55:51] <pcw_home_> I have some Ive gathered but I dont know if any specifies the commutation info
[02:56:41] <pcw_home_> The commutation info is TTL level (we have one of those encoders running on a 8I21)
[02:57:07] <ssi> and the encoder inputs on the 7i77 are ttl as well, correct?
[02:57:36] <ssi> so if I spin a board, I can use a cpld and whatever interface hardware is necessary for ttl, and the rest should be software
[02:57:46] <pcw_home_> we only had three inputs so got by with the three high order ones
[02:58:08] <ssi> my goal is to use parker gemini drives with these motors, and they want hall effect inputs
[02:58:15] <ssi> so I baskcally want to do exactly what jon elson did
[02:58:27] <pcw_home_> Linuxcnc master allows you so read the A/B/Index as hal pins
[02:58:44] <ssi> what would that do for me?
[02:59:21] <pcw_home_> you can use 7I77 encoder inputs to read the grey code
[03:00:02] <pcw_home_> (they are protected so a lot safer that using raw FPGA pins)
[03:00:23] <ssi> and then regular gpio outputs to feed hall back from the bldc component to the drives?
[03:01:48] <pcw_home_> maybe, dont know what your drives expect for hall signals
[03:02:20] <ssi> umm.... "regular"?
[03:02:21] <ssi> :)
[03:02:39] <pcw_home_> I mean signal level
[03:02:49] <ssi> the drives use hall for trapezoidal commutation until they get an encoder index, then they do sinusoidal commutation based on the encoder
[03:02:52] <ssi> umm
[03:02:55] <ssi> I can find out
[03:03:32] <pcw_home_> You will have to do a bit of experimentation
[03:04:01] <ssi> naturally
[03:04:04] <pcw_home_> Asah has his working I think, so maybe has a patch for BLDC
[03:05:18] <pcw_home_> but halscope on the pins and a little scratch paper should be enough
[03:06:13] <ssi> yeah
[03:06:20] <ssi> I'm trying to gather enough info to start wiring stuff up
[03:06:24] <ssi> maybe tonight :)
[03:08:42] <ssi> The Gemini GV6 drive is designed to be used with motors that have single-ended, open collector Hall outputs. Internally, the drive pulls these signals up to +5V. The Hall effect circuit is shown below.
[03:09:12] <skunkworks> Boom!
[03:09:20] <pcw_home_> hmm for me starting a tricky project late at night is a recipe for disaster....
[03:09:54] <ssi> well if I don't get something done tonight or tomorrow, it'll be a week before I can touch it again
[03:10:04] <pcw_home_> Yeah hall signals are very often open collector
[03:10:07] <ssi> The Gemini drive uses the Hall effect inputs to synchronize the encoder with the motor’s internal magnets at the start of motion. Initial commutation is trapezoidal; once the drive establishes synchronization it changes to sinusoidal commutation based on encoder position.
[03:10:27] <pcw_home_> (same as BLDC)
[03:10:51] <pcw_home_> first Hall edge is used for sync
[03:12:30] <ssi> hm remind me though, the 7i77 outputs are sourcing only, right?
[03:12:52] <ssi> meaning they can't masquerade as open-collector hall sensors?
[03:13:15] <pcw_home_> yes they are sourcing only
[03:13:29] <ssi> that's gonna be tricky
[03:13:30] <pcw_home_> you may not want 24V either
[03:13:37] <ssi> naturalyl :)
[03:13:55] <ssi> hm how can I do this
[03:14:10] <pcw_home_> voltage divider is one way
[03:14:47] <ssi> I probably just need to get on spinning a board to do the conversion
[03:16:23] <ssi> what about bare parport? would it be a reasonable way to run simulated hall effect outputs for testing purposes?
[03:16:54] <pcw_home_> Yeah R/C filter --> 74HC14 --> CPLD --> SOT 23 MOSFET with 47 Ohm series resistor --> pullup
[03:17:11] <pcw_home_> pretty bullet proof
[03:17:25] <ssi> that'll be easy
[03:17:51] <pcw_home_> a plug in parallel port would probably work (and not series if it dies)
[03:17:58] <pcw_home_> serious
[03:18:53] <ssi> so you said I can use the '77's encoder inputs for the greycode
[03:19:10] <ssi> would I use C1 -> A, C2 -> /A, C4 -> B, C8 -> /B ?
[03:19:15] <pcw_home_> Yes (though only readable in master)
[03:19:51] <pcw_home_> no you need to set the input to TTL mode so you can only use one input per pair
[03:19:58] <ssi> ok
[03:20:05] <skunkworks> you can read greycode with the mesa encoder counters?
[03:20:26] <ssi> so I'll need A, B, Z, and A of the next one to read one set
[03:20:34] <ssi> or maybe just read the high order three like you were saying?
[03:22:24] <pcw_home_> If you are going to make a converter you might as well map out the whole thing
[03:22:52] <pcw_home_> i think Fanuc motors are almost always 8 pole
[03:22:58] <ssi> yeah I'm pretty sure it's 8 pole
[03:23:26] <pcw_home_> so the whole pattern will repeat 4 times per turn
[03:25:33] <ssi> I found a pdf on cnczone that had info on the commutation
[03:25:35] <ssi> lemme find that
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[03:37:38] <ssi> http://www.prototechnical.com/~imcmahon/fanuc_commutation.png
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[03:41:01] <ssi> pete
[03:41:11] <PetefromTn_andro> Yeah
[03:41:20] <ssi> what's happening
[03:41:30] <PetefromTn_andro> Watching ufc
[03:41:59] <PetefromTn_andro> You?
[03:42:57] <ssi> sitting in the hangar
[03:43:01] <ssi> contemplating fanuc commutation
[03:43:11] <PetefromTn_andro> I'm sorry
[03:43:26] <ssi> why?
[03:43:59] <PetefromTn_andro> I'm sorry your machine is so dissimilar to mine
[03:44:06] <ssi> I'm happy that it is, honestly
[03:45:10] <PetefromTn_andro> I'm sure you will get it working regardless
[03:46:32] <ssi> yeah, it'll happen :)
[03:46:47] <ssi> what do you suppose this thing will do if i hook single phase up to it as is?
[03:46:55] <PetefromTn_andro> Did you order the spindle drive
[03:46:56] <ssi> I'm guessing the control is powered only by one phase
[03:47:00] <ssi> not sure about the servo drive
[03:47:02] <ssi> no, not yet
[03:47:22] <PetefromTn_andro> No idea man.
[03:47:23] <ssi> I got 6/3 pulled last night
[03:47:30] <ssi> put a subpanel out in the hangar by the machine
[03:47:52] <ssi> this control is hilarious
[03:47:55] <ssi> it has submodules
[03:48:01] <ssi> the DIMP board, the DAMP board, and the DUMP board
[03:48:45] <PetefromTn_andro> I'm kinda surprised you didn't have to pull a permit for the elecrical
[03:48:53] <ssi> lolololololol
[03:49:05] <ssi> you obviously don't know me well
[03:49:06] <ssi> :D
[03:50:15] <PetefromTn_andro> Are you going to try to use the original control
[03:50:23] <ssi> not really
[03:50:37] <ssi> but if I can run the original control on single phase, I will try to power it up
[03:50:46] <ssi> if nothing else so that I can unpark the Z
[03:50:50] <ssi> it's still sitting on a block on the table
[03:51:39] <PetefromTn_andro> I just unbolted the z motor and kinda screwed the head up using the motor body
[03:52:18] <PetefromTn_andro> The brake held it to the screw
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[03:54:50] <PetefromTn_andro> I got the second operations programmed for my prototype rail earlier while I watched the new transformer movie.
[03:55:32] <ssi> nice :)
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[04:03:30] <PetefromTn_andro> Have you gotten any cleaning done on that beast yet?
[04:08:13] <Connor> ssi Your servo encoders use grey code ? Ick
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[05:38:10] <ssi> Connor: in addition to quadrature
[05:38:16] <ssi> the grey code is the commutation signal
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[06:03:30] <Connor> ssi What' exactly is that used for ?
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[06:57:53] <Deejay> moin
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[12:16:38] <jdh> I think geminis use ecoder for comutation, after finding the halls
[12:24:23] <ReadError> http://www.cncrouterparts.com/images/2012-03-08%2006.47.52.jpg
[12:24:33] <ReadError> is there a standard as to how high these things are?
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[12:37:17] <ReadError> ahh seems to be 1/2" to the center
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[12:46:07] <elmo401> there is no standard...
[12:49:27] <Jymmm> how high?
[12:52:19] <ReadError> yea, cncrp doesnt publish dimensions
[12:52:46] <ReadError> but I have one its just hard to get too, was able to figure it out
[12:53:07] <ReadError> doing a 4 axis wire cutter and they come monday but im still making parts for it
[13:01:09] <Jymmm> so there are no drawings or specs?
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[13:05:33] <Jymmm> ReadError: I'd guess no more than double the leadscrew diameter
[13:07:09] <Jymmm> ReadError: 4 axis wire cutter?! What you cutting wire on a bevel? lol
[13:07:43] <Jymmm> ReadError: slicing it lengthwise?
[13:08:38] <Jymmm> ReadError: Making decrotive swans out of it?
[13:16:22] <SpeedEvil> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/culturepicturegalleries/7916457/Pencil-sculptures-miniature-masterpieces-carved-into-graphite-by-Dalton-Ghetti.html
[13:16:27] <SpeedEvil> but in wire
[13:17:43] <ReadError> Jymmm hot wire'ing some wings
[13:18:14] <Jymmm> ReadError: hot wire foam cutter?
[13:20:01] <ReadError> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7sJmPijP_0#t=54
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[13:25:22] <Jymmm> ReadError Like I said, HWFC. Now, THIS is a foam cutter... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=typOpfYqjdk
[13:26:08] <Jymmm> or this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JP2EzntCOgY
[13:26:19] <Jymmm> I cant find the one I was thinking of
[13:26:21] <malcom2073_> ReadError: That's nuts loud lol
[13:28:32] <ReadError> last of the parts will be here monday
[13:29:23] <Jymmm> ReadError: what are you using for heat control?
[13:29:41] <ReadError> variac
[13:29:49] <ReadError> and a transformer
[13:29:50] <Jymmm> AC?
[13:30:00] <ReadError> well ac->dc
[13:30:21] <ReadError> I have a lab PSU but I use it for a bunch of other stuff
[13:30:31] <Jymmm> you're gonna fry your xfmr using a variac (eventually)
[13:31:04] <ReadError> hmm im open to suggestions
[13:31:20] <Jymmm> Try it, just keep an eye on it.
[13:31:37] <Jymmm> Much better than a dimmer switch =)
[13:32:10] <Jymmm> Oh wait, nm I was thinking dimmer when you said variac
[13:32:46] <Jymmm> ReadError: The issue with AC, is that it vibrates the hot wire =)
[13:32:46] <ReadError> ahh yea, with the dimmer you need a load I think
[13:33:06] <ReadError> yea I heard it buzzed, so far ive only used DC
[13:33:36] <Jymmm> cool
[13:34:40] <ReadError> was thinking about using a SSR and driving it using pwm
[13:34:57] <Jymmm> ReadError: And I can't tell you why, but even though it's the same wattage, altering the voltage can make a difference.
[13:35:10] <Jymmm> PWM = pulsing the wire =)
[13:36:05] <ReadError> if I use the transformer to go to DC that should solve it right?
[13:36:54] <Jymmm> mains -> variac -> xmfr -> bridge -> caps -> hotwire
[13:37:41] <Jymmm> You could use a ceilign fan dimmer if you want to go cheap at least for a test.
[13:38:01] <Jymmm> err ceiling fan speed control
[13:38:43] <Jymmm> I did see one digital heat control, but I haven't looked in a while
[13:40:26] <Jymmm> ReadError: Not sure if you are aware of this, but wattage is not the amount of het produced, but the ability to recover from heat lose in the cutting process and bringthe wire back up to the desired cutting temp as quickly as possible.
[13:42:32] <Jymmm> ReadError: Then, alter the feed speed to accomidate the cutting accuracy
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[13:42:54] <Jymmm> ReadError: Hi/lo humidity can change settings too
[13:43:08] <Jymmm> ambiant temp, etc
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[13:45:39] <Jymmm> ReadError: Could use a variac + car charger =)
[13:45:44] <ReadError> I got the variac already
[13:45:47] <Jymmm> a dumb one that is
[13:45:54] <ReadError> need to figure out the part after that though
[13:46:10] <Jymmm> just use a cheap car charger
[13:46:24] <Jymmm> or two of them
[13:48:19] <Jymmm> is series/parallel as you see fit
[13:49:03] <Jymmm> 24@2A, 12V@4A, etc
[13:50:54] <ReadError> http://www.amazon.com/Meanwell-Approved-Waterproof-Transformer-Warranty/dp/B00GIF45DY/
[13:51:01] <ReadError> would something like this work okay?
[13:51:23] <ReadError> hmm thats constant though
[13:51:29] <ReadError> dont know much at all about AC
[13:51:40] <Jymmm> No, those are always overrated for what they are.
[13:52:07] <Jymmm> and 2.5A is a lil low
[13:52:13] <Jymmm> imo
[13:52:43] <Jymmm> You could use a PC PS, they have 12v, 5v, and 3.3v at high amperage
[13:56:09] <ReadError> I have a server PSU down there now
[13:56:23] <ReadError> was using a ESC + servo tester
[14:00:22] <Jymmm> ReadError: Honestly , it's just a hot wire, use what you got. Do use a xmfr for isolation, and could add a bridge easily enough
[14:00:48] <Jymmm> ReadError: Just keep an eye on the xfmr heat build up
[14:03:43] <Jymmm> ReadError: I made a 4ft bow w/o xmfr. it hummed and shocked the shit out of myself as I was barefoot and touching one end =)
[14:05:37] <Jymmm> ReadError: One thing I thought about is using those RC motor speed controls. they're high amperage
[14:06:33] <Jymmm> ReadError: Kinda like this http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__58264__Flycolor_30_Amp_Multi_rotor_ESC_2_4S_with_BEC.html
[14:07:32] <Jymmm> ReadError: I have NFC if it'll actually work, just a thought
[14:11:56] <ReadError> http://www.amazon.com/Honeywell-AT140A1000-40Va-120V-Transformer/dp/B000K2EC7K/
[14:11:59] <ReadError> grabbed that
[14:12:15] <ReadError> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CQLL3G6/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
[14:12:18] <Jymmm> 40Va is low
[14:12:43] <Jymmm> that might give you 34W
[14:12:48] <ReadError> hm
[14:12:55] <ReadError> trying to find something on amazon
[14:13:27] <Jymmm> Why? Just hit a flea market, yard sale, thrift store and scavanged something
[14:13:29] <Tom_itx> couple mosfets under pwm control
[14:14:55] <Tom_itx> Jymmm barefoot touching 110vac?
[14:14:56] <Tom_itx> :D
[14:15:33] <ReadError> not too much around here like that
[14:15:43] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: Eh, better than when I touched 400V due to not being isolated (not my fault, it was miswired)
[14:17:23] <Jymmm> ReadError: yu can find a cheap car charger?
[14:17:57] <ReadError> i have one here I can try
[14:18:16] <Jymmm> 12V @ 10A = 120W
[14:18:30] <ReadError> will lowering the AC voltage let me modulate the DC output?
[14:18:43] <Jymmm> if it's a linear charger, yes =)
[14:19:18] <Jymmm> if it's a smart charger, it might be a PITA
[14:20:04] <ReadError> it looks pretty dumb, theres a 3 pos switch and a voltage gauge
[14:20:19] <Jymmm> no reverse polarity protection?
[14:20:33] <ReadError> hm not that I know of
[14:20:39] <ReadError> would have to check though
[14:20:40] <Jymmm> Then try it
[14:21:08] <Jymmm> does it have a 10A setting?
[14:23:49] <ReadError> think it goes to 6A
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[17:10:11] <koss> anyone used one of these? seems like a good price http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000CRE7Q4/fpv-20/
[17:23:00] <skunkworks> something similar came on my craftsman chop saw. worked weel
[17:23:01] <skunkworks> well
[17:25:36] <MrL> hey, in this page http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?UpdatingTo2.6 it tells me to add linuxcnc archive key to apt key ring but when i try obtain it the key server timesout, what to do?
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[17:58:41] <ssi> jdh: the geminis do in fact use the encoders for commutation once they index
[17:58:48] <ssi> but it needs something for the first revolution
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[19:03:27] <CaptHindsight> ssi: does DHALL just disable the generation of a HALL error and doesn't disable the need for HALL signals to the drive?
[19:04:34] <CaptHindsight> aligning the HALL sensors to the motor shaft requires a scope on the Parker AC servos
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[19:41:33] <sivu> hmm i have some problem with pwmgen
[19:41:39] <sivu> it just doesn't output anything
[19:42:47] <sivu> loadrt pwmgen output_type=0
[19:42:47] <sivu> addf pwmgen.make-pulses base-thread
[19:42:47] <sivu> addf pwmgen.update servo-thread
[19:42:47] <sivu> net pwm-enable => pwmgen.0.enable
[19:42:47] <sivu> net blink-pwm <= pwmgen.0.pwm => classicladder.0.in-10
[19:42:49] <sivu> setp pwmgen.0.pwm-freq 2.0
[19:42:52] <sivu> sets pwm-enable true
[19:43:03] <sivu> output is always 0
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[19:59:14] <pcw_home_> 0 output is probably expected unless pwmgen.0.value is set to something
[20:01:26] <sivu> crap, that was left out when i copied the lines
[20:01:50] <sivu> in the meantime i got this done with siggen
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[21:23:33] <Deejay> gn8
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[21:43:03] <XXCoder> so. much. wtf. https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/5018498048/hAE2A06F3/
[21:47:39] <pcw_home_> track&field / non track&field ?
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[22:19:21] <tjtr33> XXCoder, http://thiswastv.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/basil_manuel_upstairs.png?w=300&h=229 stairs went from this floor to this floor in Fawlty Towers
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[23:59:48] <ssi> CaptHindsight: yeah I'm pretty sure there needs to be a hall signal in order to get them moving until it picks up the encoder index