#linuxcnc | Logs for 2014-09-17

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[00:01:01] <Tom_itx> G41 (left) for climb cutting, G42(right) for conventional
[00:01:06] -!- swingley has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
[00:01:13] <Tom_itx> i don't use either, i let the cad cam work it out
[00:01:14] JT-Shop_ is now known as JT-Shop
[00:01:22] <zeeshan> Tom_itx: it matters also if its external or internal contour
[00:01:51] <Tom_itx> yeah
[00:02:01] <zeeshan> i like cutter compensation
[00:02:03] <Tom_itx> but if you climb you climb
[00:02:14] <zeeshan> because you can just change the tool offset
[00:02:21] <zeeshan> when your tool wears out
[00:02:27] <Tom_itx> i'm not saying we never used it but i don't use it on my mill
[00:02:30] <zeeshan> not like you really need it :P
[00:02:45] <PetefromTn_> This is conventional milling outside perimeter of a part.
[00:02:54] <Tom_itx> we sometimes would get undersize tools back from grind
[00:03:17] <zeeshan> can you please try g41!!
[00:03:33] <PetefromTn_> why?
[00:03:39] <Tom_itx> if he's conventional cutting he'd want G42 you think?
[00:03:56] <zeeshan> well the way i've always imagined it is
[00:03:57] <PetefromTn_> like I said exterior feature conventional cut.
[00:04:04] <Tom_itx> either way it's gonna move the cutter but the results may not be what was expected
[00:04:07] <zeeshan> left or right depends on the plane you're planning to cut
[00:04:22] <zeeshan> so if the plane you're cutting is on the right of the end mill
[00:04:27] <zeeshan> you want to shift the end mill left
[00:04:36] <Tom_itx> also i don't think comp takes effect until the first linear move
[00:04:42] <Tom_itx> so do it on a lead in move
[00:04:59] <PetefromTn_> how do you creep up on a dimension if you let the cam do the work in comensating for diameter?
[00:05:23] <Tom_itx> we would use it sometimes...
[00:05:25] <JT-Shop> I change the tool diameter in the CAM
[00:05:30] <Tom_itx> i just don't use it on my home mill
[00:05:43] <Tom_itx> you can do what JT said too
[00:05:51] <PetefromTn_> so if you need to tweak just a tenth or whatever you have to repost the code?
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[00:05:52] <JT-Shop> hole too small make it a 0.372 end mill
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[00:06:11] <Tom_itx> ^^
[00:06:17] <zeeshan> hackers!
[00:06:31] <JT-Shop> yea, that's what I do just because my VMC is a DX-32
[00:06:35] <PetefromTn_> yes of course you can do it that way but it defeats the purpose of the machine cutter comp.
[00:06:37] <zeeshan> guys convince me this mill is worth buying
[00:06:43] <zeeshan> http://media.exapro.com/product/2013/06/P30626055/c9916f42d051bbea1b0e1fd550e9b280/used-ex-cell-o-602-vertical-cnc-milling-machine-p30626055_2.jpg
[00:06:48] <zeeshan> it looks just like this one
[00:06:52] <Tom_itx> it doesn't do you much good if it isn't working
[00:07:14] <PetefromTn_> the comp?
[00:07:15] * Tom_itx places a bid on zeeshan's mill
[00:07:21] <zeeshan> haha Tom_itx
[00:07:22] <Tom_itx> convinced?
[00:07:24] * LeelooMinai places 2 cents
[00:07:33] <zeeshan> its got #40 taper
[00:07:36] <Tom_itx> that was without clicking too
[00:07:39] <zeeshan> ball screws and dc servo drives and servos
[00:07:45] <zeeshan> it's missing a spindle motor
[00:07:50] <zeeshan> and its got some rust one the Z ways
[00:07:56] <zeeshan> but it seems like surface rust
[00:08:00] <zeeshan> will clean up with wool
[00:08:32] <zeeshan> it also weighs 1500lb more than my bridgeport
[00:08:41] <Tom_itx> not a bad looking mill
[00:10:00] * LeelooMinai wonders how one even transports and places such mill in, say, a basement
[00:10:16] <LeelooMinai> You have to move the house first? :)
[00:10:17] <Tom_itx> a piece at a time
[00:10:40] <Tom_itx> after all, you'd wanna strip it down anyway wouldn't you?
[00:11:34] <LeelooMinai> No idea - it just doesn't look that easy to disassemble - the body seems one piece
[00:11:38] <zeeshan> i think the only thing i really like about it is its #40 taper
[00:11:44] <zeeshan> LeelooMinai: its very easy to take them apart
[00:11:49] <zeeshan> you will need an engine hoist though
[00:12:38] <LeelooMinai> Right, ok... I will stay with my small hobby cnc toy I think:)
[00:12:49] <zeeshan> okay so my current mill weighs 2,220 lb
[00:13:16] <zeeshan> this one weighs 3500~lb
[00:13:22] <PetefromTn_> so no ideas on this cutter comp problem?
[00:13:31] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: i told you
[00:13:35] <zeeshan> break it down into a smaller problem
[00:13:42] <LeelooMinai> zeeshan: Make sure it does not fall through the floor:)
[00:13:48] <zeeshan> haha LeelooMinai
[00:13:51] <zeeshan> LeelooMinai: buy my milling machine
[00:13:53] <zeeshan> !
[00:14:03] <zeeshan> you're right, you bought the mesa system!
[00:14:08] <zeeshan> right = rich
[00:14:14] <PetefromTn_> what do you mean smaller problem>
[00:14:43] <LeelooMinai> Not rich at all - had to save for it for 2 months (and then they added that $100 duty or whatever that is - bastards!) :)
[00:15:27] <LeelooMinai> Also, I don't think I could keep 2k lb mill in my room
[00:15:45] <zeeshan> start spindle, g40 cancel compensation, t1 m6 (load your tool), g41, g1 X0 Y0, X1, M2
[00:15:50] <zeeshan> when its going to X1
[00:15:57] <zeeshan> monitor your location in the dro
[00:16:44] <zeeshan> LeelooMinai: just remember to use usps
[00:16:48] <zeeshan> and its not tooo bad
[00:16:56] <PetefromTn_> Okay I'll set the tool diameter back to .3755 and add the G41 instead of the 42
[00:17:03] <zeeshan> you just end up paying tax + $5 custom brokerage fee no matter how much the value is
[00:17:25] <PCW> UPS is almost never what you want
[00:18:41] <Tom_itx> PetefromTn_, get to know your mill. cut a line, set G41 and add some comp to see what it does, set G42 and see what that does as well
[00:19:06] <Tom_itx> you've already got some scrap to work with.. a mouse told me that
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[00:27:28] <zeeshan> i wonder if i have 3.5" aluminum
[00:27:31] <zeeshan> diameter
[00:28:47] <CaptHindsight> I guess that whole NAFTA thing isn't working out to well for the average person
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[00:30:54] <maZer`-> is there any good tutorial or something how to setup the center hole probe on linuxcnc? :)
[00:31:56] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/U5f4s1s.png
[00:32:03] <zeeshan> i wonder how i should make this part
[00:32:45] <zeeshan> finish machine the long nose
[00:32:46] <zeeshan> flip it?
[00:32:51] <zeeshan> make it true
[00:33:16] <zeeshan> finish the external feature then bore?
[00:33:18] <zeeshan> drill and bore
[00:39:40] <PetefromTn_> Okay just ran the program after editing every G42 to G41 and set the cutter comp to .3755 and it ran the exact same path as before. Cutter Comp is not working
[00:40:20] <PetefromTn_> Tom_itx Yeah I know I already have a screwed up part thanks for reminding me....
[00:40:24] <zeeshan> do you call a g40 in the beiginning of the program?
[00:40:29] <PetefromTn_> yeah
[00:40:39] <zeeshan> then you do something like t1 m6?
[00:40:43] <zeeshan> for a tool change?
[00:40:46] <PetefromTn_> yeah
[00:41:01] <zeeshan> and then before the linear move that requires compensation you go
[00:41:06] <zeeshan> g41/g42
[00:41:10] <zeeshan> and then the lin move
[00:42:36] <PetefromTn_> http://pastebin.com/PD8HJ7Dn
[00:43:25] <PetefromTn_> Thats the first few lines of the program.
[00:43:39] <zeeshan> you dont need to do d3
[00:43:39] <PetefromTn_> I cannot see anything wrong with it but maybe I am missing something>
[00:43:43] <zeeshan> but i dont think thats the problem
[00:43:47] <zeeshan> when you just call g41 / g42
[00:43:55] <zeeshan> it'll use the compensation in the tool table for your current tool
[00:44:07] <PetefromTn_> how the hell does the control know which comp to use if there is no D?
[00:44:21] <zeeshan> i try not to do the d-word because if you accidently call the wrong one its not good
[00:44:36] <PetefromTn_> yeah well the cam does all that.
[00:44:38] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: it knows from the tool #
[00:45:14] <zeeshan> say you've got tool 3 loaded and you're doing g42 d4
[00:45:22] <zeeshan> it'll use the offset for tool 4!
[00:45:35] <zeeshan> thats not your problem though
[00:45:47] <zeeshan> you know what it might be?
[00:45:52] <zeeshan> the bastard tool table itself.
[00:46:01] <zeeshan> for some reason, even on the damn lathe
[00:46:10] <zeeshan> the tool table loses its values if you call certain commands
[00:46:35] <jdh> why CAM a g41/g42?
[00:46:49] <zeeshan> jdh because it has its benefits
[00:46:56] <zeeshan> especially when you wanna do on the fly offsets
[00:47:04] <zeeshan> thats how production g-code programs are written
[00:47:13] <zeeshan> so the operators can modify the tool offset to meet the tolerance
[00:47:22] <jdh> you have better operators
[00:47:23] <zeeshan> otherwise the cam programmer needs to re-write the problem
[00:47:32] <zeeshan> *program
[00:47:34] <zeeshan> which is a waste of $
[00:48:02] <PetefromTn_> you got that right.. this is a big deal to be able to change the offset at the machine on the fly to creep up without having to repost the code over and over..
[00:48:38] <zeeshan> im really baffled why your compensation isnt working
[00:48:46] <PetefromTn_> My CAM computer is in the house and I have to run back and forth with my sneakernet drive to repost anything, Its a PIA
[00:48:47] <zeeshan> i wonder if it's something to do with it not knowing what plane it's working in
[00:49:03] <jdh> can you (debug) the current tool diameter
[00:49:16] <zeeshan> i mean youre calling g17..
[00:49:22] <zeeshan> so it knows it's milling in the xy plane
[00:49:45] <zeeshan> i'm not sure why theres a G00 in the beginning of the code :D
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[00:51:26] <zeeshan> g-code looks good to me
[00:51:26] <zeeshan> =/
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[00:52:04] <PetefromTn_> I know I cannot understand why the G00 either but its there,.
[00:52:13] <PetefromTn_> Doesn't seem to affect anything really.
[00:52:15] <jdh> twice
[00:52:29] <zeeshan> i dont think the g-code is the problem
[00:52:39] <zeeshan> pete when you open tool table
[00:52:45] <zeeshan> do you actually see .3755 under tool 3?
[00:52:47] <zeeshan> under D?
[00:53:05] <PetefromTn_> yeah
[00:53:09] <zeeshan> so weird
[00:53:16] <PetefromTn_> and it says it underneatht he axis control panel at the bottom
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[00:59:15] <PetefromTn_> Like I said I changed the tool table cutter comp for tool three from .3755 to zero and back and it did not change the toolpath at all. Some reason LinuxCNC is not recognizing the cutter compensation commands.
[00:59:41] <jdh> you reloaded the tool table after edits?
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[00:59:51] <PetefromTn_> I noticed it said that the tool number and pocket number is mandatory in the table and I have been making the tool number and pocket number the same since I first started running the machine.
[00:59:55] <PetefromTn_> yeah.
[01:00:19] <PetefromTn_> Like I said when the tool is called it shows the current length and diameter offset under the axis panel window.
[01:00:26] <PetefromTn_> It has been correct each time I tried it.
[01:00:32] <PetefromTn_> No change in the toolpath.
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[01:00:39] <PetefromTn_> DAFUQ?
[01:01:21] <jdh> write some code by hand, see what happens.
[01:01:29] <PetefromTn_> whenever I make a change to the tooltable, I hit save, then reread, then make sure it stuck then hit quit and then go File, reload tool table and ensure the numbers match.
[01:01:37] <PetefromTn_> Why?
[01:01:56] <jdh> easier to see what one or two lines do.
[01:02:28] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: i dont understand why when you make a change from .3755 to 0
[01:02:30] <zeeshan> nothing happened
[01:02:37] <zeeshan> its like it's not recognizing the tool table value
[01:02:44] <PetefromTn_> The program already screwed up this particular cut going around the outside of the part edge. this is a good time to learn what does what.
[01:02:50] <PetefromTn_> yeah exactly...
[01:03:36] <PetefromTn_> I had issues with the tool table before we updated to the newest master awhile back but it has worked fine since then. Maybe it still has a bug that is not evident until you try to use comp?
[01:03:39] <PetefromTn_> BRB
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[01:10:27] <PetefromTn_> Well I can see why it did not screw up the small pockets run with the eigth inch endmill. The program did not have cutter comp in the pocket operation. Not sure why..
[01:13:02] <PetefromTn_> The machine is just not using the compensation for some reason. It is in the code and the tool table inputs are correct as far as I can tell.
[01:13:46] <zeeshan> its time to swap to mach 3!!!
[01:13:49] * zeeshan hides
[01:14:26] <PetefromTn_> Does cutter compensation have to be enabled somehow in linuxCNC?
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[01:14:51] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: if cutter compensation isnt working
[01:15:08] <zeeshan> then how come it gouged the outside of your profile you were trying to cut?
[01:15:40] <Valen> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Yvcizt83DA is interesting
[01:15:41] <zeeshan> is it cause it gouged in1/2 the diameter of the tool deep?
[01:15:43] <PetefromTn_> Can't answer that.
[01:15:46] <Valen> cryogenic machining of rubber
[01:16:12] <PetefromTn_> it appears to be about half I have not measured it yet.
[01:16:59] <zeeshan> i have a question for you guys
[01:17:06] <zeeshan> so when using a cnc lathe
[01:17:07] <PetefromTn_> besides even if it somehow did work initially changing the G42 to G41 and adjusting the tool diameter in the table changed nothing...
[01:17:14] <zeeshan> and you need to rotate the work piece in the chuck
[01:17:20] <zeeshan> do you guys write 2 seperate programs for this?
[01:19:40] <zeeshan> hey pete
[01:19:48] <PetefromTn_> yeah
[01:20:22] <zeeshan> i think i might know whats going on
[01:20:30] <PetefromTn_> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gcode/tool_compensation.html
[01:20:38] <zeeshan> im looking at your g-code
[01:20:43] <PetefromTn_> just reading this article down at the cutter compensation area
[01:20:44] <zeeshan> i notice you dont have any lead in move
[01:20:53] <zeeshan> thats probably whats throwing the controller off
[01:21:04] <PetefromTn_> there is a lead in and a lead out..
[01:21:09] <zeeshan> where
[01:21:18] <zeeshan> at line 6 you move in z direction
[01:21:21] <zeeshan> at line 7
[01:21:27] <zeeshan> you start cutting in x y plane
[01:21:29] <zeeshan> there is no lead in move
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[01:21:47] <zeeshan> you need to move in the X-Y plane without using compensation for 1 move
[01:21:56] <zeeshan> then you turn on compensation and move to where you want
[01:22:22] <zeeshan> i might be overthinking it :(
[01:23:01] <zeeshan> yea im pretty sure thats the problem
[01:23:10] <zeeshan> you're calling both X and Y right after G42
[01:23:20] <zeeshan> when you should only be moving in one direction
[01:23:25] <zeeshan> actually im wrong.
[01:23:27] <zeeshan> i dunno :/
[01:23:34] <PetefromTn_> I am looking at the view of the toolpath in the prograam and there is a radiused arc move into the side of the part before the cut begins.
[01:23:53] <PetefromTn_> After the Z move that is.
[01:24:01] <zeeshan> i believe you
[01:24:08] <zeeshan> but im saying the g42 placeement might be incorrect
[01:24:13] <zeeshan> instead of line 7 where you have it
[01:24:13] <PetefromTn_> Does the G42 Callout have to happen on that line?
[01:24:18] <zeeshan> maybe it should be at line 9?
[01:24:26] <PetefromTn_> Not sure how I would even begin to change that.
[01:24:33] <zeeshan> no it should be after the lead in move
[01:24:49] <zeeshan> i dont know how your cam post processor works
[01:25:06] <zeeshan> but in some post-processors, you can modify the routine for lead in and lead out moves
[01:25:33] <zeeshan> for now, can you figure out which line in your g-code is the true cutting line
[01:25:37] <zeeshan> and move g42 on that line
[01:25:41] <zeeshan> and see what happens?
[01:26:11] <PetefromTn_> looking at it now.
[01:29:04] <zeeshan> just move G42 D3 from line 7
[01:29:06] <zeeshan> to line 8
[01:29:11] <zeeshan> and see what happens :P
[01:29:26] <zeeshan> if linuxcnc spits out an error
[01:29:34] <zeeshan> we're on the right track
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[01:29:39] <zeeshan> if it doesnt spit out an error, it's even better :)
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[01:35:07] <zeeshan> i need an advanced mastercam tutorial
[01:35:20] <zeeshan> i cant figure out how the hell to continue machining the part
[01:35:24] <zeeshan> after rotating it in the chuck
[01:35:28] <zeeshan> how how to rotate it in the chuck..
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[01:40:06] <PetefromTn_> Okay just determined that the initial feed move is on line 9 so I edited the program to put the G42 D3 before line 9. Did it at each of the instances where it happens and ran the program. No change still cut the same pathway.
[01:40:28] <PetefromTn_> or rather in line 9...
[01:40:55] <PetefromTn_> so it now says. G42 D3 G03 X-7.5896 Y-3.2619 I.2546 J.3085
[01:41:01] <PetefromTn_> Got no errors program ran fine.
[01:41:13] <PetefromTn_> But still no change in cutter compensation.
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[01:41:21] <zeeshan> damn
[01:41:22] <zeeshan> :/
[01:41:36] <zeeshan> is it still set to 0?
[01:41:39] <zeeshan> for the compensation.,.
[01:41:44] <PetefromTn_> nope .3755
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[01:45:31] <PetefromTn_> Any move that is long enough to perform the compensation will work as the entry move. The minimum length is the cutter radius. This can be a rapid move above the work piece. If several rapid moves are issued after a G41/42 only the last one will move the tool to the compensated position.
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[01:55:22] <Tom_itx> zeeshan did he ever get it working?
[01:55:30] <zeeshan> no
[01:55:32] <zeeshan> lol
[01:56:43] <Tom_itx> i wonder if his leadin move is longer than the radius
[01:56:52] <zeeshan> probably not
[01:57:52] <Tom_itx> did he specify a G17 in the code?
[01:57:57] <zeeshan> yes
[01:58:02] <Tom_itx> it _is_ default but i don't rely on that
[01:58:09] <zeeshan> pretty sure his issue is the leadin move
[01:58:20] <Tom_itx> i've been thinking that all along
[01:58:40] <zeeshan> its been a while since ive used compensation w/ mill
[01:58:46] <zeeshan> but iremember when i was first learning about it in school
[01:58:52] <zeeshan> we needed to give it a hefty lead in
[01:58:59] <zeeshan> for it to work correctly
[01:59:05] <Tom_itx> we've used it but i make a habbit of not using it
[01:59:22] <Tom_itx> -b
[01:59:23] <zeeshan> you really need compensation for production environments
[01:59:29] <Tom_itx> i know that
[01:59:34] <zeeshan> but not many people are programming for that :P
[01:59:41] <Tom_itx> we were
[01:59:45] <Tom_itx> and we used it there
[01:59:59] <Tom_itx> you gotta be careful though
[02:00:14] <zeeshan> why
[02:00:21] <Tom_itx> like at tight corners where a little comp will put you over the radius
[02:00:33] <Tom_itx> it will screw you over good
[02:00:36] <zeeshan> hehe
[02:00:42] <zeeshan> but you wanted an undercut!
[02:00:46] <zeeshan> :-)
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[02:04:21] <jdh> lead in just has to be > radius
[02:05:53] <Tom_itx> can it be a radius move?
[02:05:56] <Tom_itx> arc
[02:06:16] <zeeshan> fuck
[02:06:21] <zeeshan> i really wish someone in here was a mastercam expert
[02:06:23] <zeeshan> i need some help
[02:06:28] <Tom_itx> like what?
[02:06:46] <Tom_itx> i don't know mcam but i do know scam
[02:06:51] <zeeshan> i can't figure out how i can continue turning the part
[02:06:54] <zeeshan> after i flip it in the lathe chuck
[02:07:08] <zeeshan> i keep on having to write 2 seperate programs
[02:07:12] <zeeshan> and having 2 seperate models..
[02:07:22] <zeeshan> :(
[02:07:28] <Tom_itx> you better make sure your cam supports that
[02:07:34] <zeeshan> it should!
[02:07:38] <zeeshan> ive seen videos if it
[02:07:41] <Tom_itx> mine doesn't like fixture changes midway
[02:07:42] <zeeshan> i jus thave no clue how to do it
[02:08:02] <zeeshan> maybe it doesnt supoprt it
[02:08:04] <Tom_itx> do they use a different fixture offset for it?
[02:08:05] <zeeshan> i dont see "mill -turn"
[02:08:18] <revo14> Hello. How can i have this option in linuxcnc please see this video on youtube. How to make a simple g code. http://youtu.be/CQRpKdKG46M
[02:08:18] <Tom_itx> i'm not sure how lathe handles that
[02:08:21] <zeeshan> i'm not sure
[02:08:27] <zeeshan> i wish i knew more about it
[02:08:56] <Tom_itx> i was messing with that on my mill for fun one night
[02:08:59] <zeeshan> revo14: there isa python script..
[02:09:44] <revo14> How can i install it ?
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[02:11:30] <Tom_itx> zeeshan, i did this with mine once: http://tom-itx.ddns01.com:81/~webpage/cnc/toolplane1.jpg
[02:11:31] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.ddns01.com:81/~webpage/cnc/toolplane2.jpg
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[02:11:37] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.ddns01.com:81/~webpage/cnc/toolplane3.jpg
[02:11:45] <Tom_itx> all in one model
[02:11:51] <zeeshan> Tom_itx: i dont understand your crazy cam
[02:11:52] <zeeshan> :)
[02:11:57] <Tom_itx> just to learn about it
[02:12:03] <zeeshan> youre milling in different planes
[02:12:06] <zeeshan> it looks like
[02:12:06] <Tom_itx> that's using G54 55 56
[02:12:13] <Tom_itx> yes
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[02:12:37] <Tom_itx> haha
[02:12:46] <Tom_itx> he came back to brag on success!
[02:12:48] <revo14> zeeshan, how can i install it?
[02:13:10] <Tom_itx> zeeshan, i'm not sure how you'd do that with a lathe
[02:13:26] <Tom_itx> in one file
[02:13:34] <zeeshan> im sure its doable
[02:13:37] <Tom_itx> i'm sure you can join them
[02:13:41] <Tom_itx> and yes i'm sure it is too
[02:13:47] <zeeshan> im just a ultra noob
[02:13:48] <zeeshan> :(
[02:14:04] <Tom_itx> i've only used my lathe package a couple times
[02:17:27] <zeeshan> i guess it sback to doing it using the 2 step method
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[02:18:59] <tjtr33> revo14, read this http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Simple_EMC_G-Code_Generators#Dxf2gcode_import_a_2D_DXF_file_and_produce_G_code
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[04:43:01] <CaptHindsight> http://www.3ders.org/articles/20140916-3d-printing-company-stratasys-buying-grabcad.html I would have gladly developed a better app for $99M, think of the savings :)
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[05:32:17] <PetefromTn_andro> Damn it has not been my best day in the shop....
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[05:33:26] <PetefromTn_andro> But I did manage to salvage one of the two parts and got it completely finished on the first side. Looking pretty sweet so far.
[05:34:54] <PetefromTn_andro> Good news is the code I made will work now so I just Need to make one more tomorrow morning. Then I can start working on the second part of which there are four in two runs.
[05:35:16] <zeeshan> did you fix the problem
[05:35:29] <PetefromTn_andro> No
[05:35:45] <PetefromTn_andro> Not sure why the Hell the comp doesn't work
[05:35:59] <zeeshan> ill test it on my cnc mill when i get it done in 2 months!
[05:36:00] <zeeshan> :P
[05:36:01] <PetefromTn_andro> Cost me a good part today tho.
[05:37:05] <PetefromTn_andro> I tell ya if I could get that worked out properly it would make my life a lot easier.
[05:37:45] <PetefromTn_andro> I must have reposted parts of that damn program twenty times today
[05:37:55] <zeeshan> heheh
[05:38:03] <zeeshan> that sounds like me running upstairs/downstairs to the garage
[05:38:12] <zeeshan> trying to get mastercam to spit out the correct code that linuxcnc could recognize
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[05:38:48] <PetefromTn_andro> Yeah well it's only about twenty steps from my cad computer to the vmc but it's just bullshit
[05:39:25] <zeeshan> 20 steps!
[05:39:26] <zeeshan> lucky.
[05:39:48] <PetefromTn_andro> The machine ran beautiful all damn day long today love how the spindle sounds now
[05:40:17] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_andro: whats the idea behind a load meter
[05:40:37] <zeeshan> when i was working at the production cnc mill/grinder/lathe place
[05:40:38] <PetefromTn_andro> What do you mean?
[05:40:38] <XXCoder> PetefromTn_andro: awesome
[05:40:48] <zeeshan> they had load meters on them too..
[05:40:59] <zeeshan> is the idea that you will notice a huge load spike when your tool wears out?
[05:41:33] <zeeshan> i just dont recall ever seeing them change much..... but we did replace inserts after 400 parts
[05:41:40] <PetefromTn_andro> Well not huge hopefully but you can see it and you can use it to track your wear.
[05:41:48] <zeeshan> (preventative measures), so maybe the insert never got worn
[05:41:55] <zeeshan> ah okay
[05:42:02] <zeeshan> any other benefits of a load meter?
[05:42:21] <PetefromTn_andro> When you cut harder steel it is noticeable on a production run
[05:42:26] <zeeshan> maybe it'll show if you're overloading the machine by taking too deep of a cut?
[05:43:04] <PetefromTn_andro> Yeah that too you can gauge how far you are pushing the tooling
[05:43:50] <PetefromTn_andro> I have one setup on my machine but it's not really setup right yet
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[05:45:45] <PetefromTn_andro> Well I better get to sleep I have to drop the kids off at school tomorrow morning. Gn8
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[06:56:57] <Deejay> moin
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[08:40:12] <Tom_itx> zeeshan, load meters are partially to tell if you are using your cnc to it's capability
[08:40:41] <Tom_itx> also _can_ show tool wear if you're watching it close enough
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[09:21:40] <Loetmichel> *grumpf* $me states: 4mm deep into AlMg3 with a 2mm twoflute and F1200 : not good. *trowing two Tungsten mill bit shafts into the scrapbox... next time checking the parametes in cam TWICE to sit at 0,2 "maximum milling dept"
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[09:44:53] <Swapper> a simple question, can i use any tool in the tooltable to ref z height on the workpice ? will tool length offset work or do i have to use the reference tool?
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[10:56:15] <jthornton> any tool that makes sense to use is ok
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[11:12:21] <Swapper> ok thank you for the info
[11:12:48] <Swapper> Then i dont have to load the reftool first to set z and can use the right tool directly
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[12:00:10] <jdh> for metric users... what value do you think of when you are being somewhat precise for cutting? For me, 0.001" is ok, anything less that that is great. (not that I personally cut things that well, just my feel for 'goodness')
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[12:03:05] <archivist> I do thou even in metric :)
[12:03:58] <archivist> and for best, tenths
[12:06:11] <archivist> jdh when I went to work for a clockmakers I got a blank look when I asked about tolerance, the answer was minimum clearance but a rattling fit
[12:08:49] <jdh> is that specified in drawings?
[12:09:51] <Tom_itx> drawings? what drawings?
[12:12:28] <archivist> I did talk to a toolmaker who worked for Timex, they worked to tenths in watches, parts were interchangeable
[12:12:44] <jdh> ten-thou inch?
[12:12:51] <jdh> tenth-thou inch?
[12:12:57] <Tom_itx> yessir
[12:13:03] <archivist> but the hand made stuff is "fitted"
[12:13:36] <jdh> I'm trying to discuss tolerances with a japanese colleague where the parts are in thou
[12:13:45] <archivist> the rattling fit is about friction minimising
[12:13:47] <Tom_itx> then they gotta come back to you when they need parts
[12:14:21] <jdh> and .1mm is not sufficient but 0.01mm is too much
[12:14:35] <Tom_itx> .05mm
[12:15:26] <jdh> my range is 0.0405-0.410
[12:32:18] <SpeedEvil> i guess you can't really say what's 'precise' meaningfully without a scale
[12:33:08] <SpeedEvil> 'Precision concrete forming' probably isn't to tenths.
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[12:56:02] <jdh> in this case, it is precise around 0.405-0.410. We aim for 0.407
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[13:26:33] <archivist> a sheetmetal place I used many years ago joked that they worked to a chalk mark, their bent chassis was very accurate, it just fitted
[13:26:54] <SpeedEvil> :)
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[13:31:03] <Loetmichel> archivist. if they did that to a chalk mark: even more impressive
[13:31:05] <Loetmichel> :-)
[13:31:32] <archivist> must have had some 1 thou chalk
[13:34:50] <archivist> still around I see http://www.meakinandsonderbyltd.co.uk/
[13:35:53] <archivist> naff website
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[14:12:52] <cradek> > Another issue I have found is that when running in reverse and stopping, LinuxCNC drops the direction line before the VFD has completed the decel ramp, causing the VFD to slam the lathe into forward for the duration of the decel
[14:13:19] <archivist> that is somewhat dangerous
[14:13:28] <cradek> yeah, very surprising vfd behavior
[14:13:45] <cradek> I think he misidentified it as a linuxcnc bug
[14:13:47] <archivist> is that a coarse encoder
[14:14:08] <cradek> ?
[14:15:08] <archivist> if the encoder is too coarse it can see stationary before it really is stopped
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[14:16:27] <cradek> he's describing vfd behavior
[14:16:39] <cradek> vfd has direction and speed inputs
[14:17:27] <cradek> if you command -, 1000 it runs at -1000; if you then command +, 0 it bogusly runs at +1000
[14:18:24] <cradek> even if you change directly from -, 1000 to +, 1000 it should politely accelerate positivedirectionward
[14:18:52] <archivist> mine does do that nicely
[14:19:25] <cradek> every one I've ever seen does it right
[14:19:43] <cradek> his apparently slams from -1000 to +1000 and skips the decel cycle
[14:22:15] <archivist> should one wait for the vfd stopped signal
[14:23:04] <cradek> commanding +500, -500, +500 is how tapping works
[14:23:44] <cradek> I think if you don't want to stop, you shouldn't command a stop
[14:24:04] <cradek> it's a rabbit-hole trying to guess what breakage hardware will have, and building those assumptions into linuxcnc
[14:24:11] <cradek> you can compensate for hardware breakage in hal
[14:24:32] <cradek> (or get rid of broken stuff and buy sane stuff)
[14:25:30] <archivist> I just went to the local engineering "stockists" no centre drills in stock !
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[14:30:42] <SpeedEvil> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/L9110S-DC-Stepper-Motor-Driver-H-Bridge-For-Arduino-800mA-2-5-12v-TTL-CMOS-UK-/181528590407
[14:30:45] <SpeedEvil> may amuse
[14:35:11] <varesa> I've managed to interface the terco stepper drivers to linuxcnc but can't figure out how to drive the spindle
[14:35:34] <varesa> And I managed to zap myself with 60VAC from a pin I assumed should be 5VDC :p
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[14:39:12] <jdh> good way to wake up
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[14:40:38] <SpeedEvil> 60VAC isn't bad.
[14:40:42] <SpeedEvil> Unless you lick it.
[14:40:45] <SpeedEvil> Don't lick it.
[14:41:05] <SpeedEvil> Been there, done that, got the vibrating tounge for an hour
[14:44:47] <varesa> SpeedEvil: just a bit surprising
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[14:49:33] <varesa> I wish I knew someone who is pro with older analog electronics and could make sense out of that drive card
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[14:52:40] <SpeedEvil> What drive card
[14:54:55] <varesa> Something in the Terco 45 that drives the spindle (I'm trying to see if I get the old electronics to work with linuxcnc)
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[14:56:27] <varesa> It has a 6-bit input going to a 8-bit D/A converter and some voltage/current controlling analog stuff. It drives another card which has (maybe) 2 triacs and 2 transistors that drive a DC motor from AC mains
[14:56:41] <varesa> But I can't figure out how to "turn it on" :(
[14:56:46] <jdh> what woudl possess you to lick a wire of any sort?
[14:57:39] <jdh> pics of the controller?
[14:57:53] <varesa> jdh: I can take in 30 minutes
[14:58:59] <SpeedEvil> jdh: I was stripping it. I knew it was decoupled and 'dead'
[14:59:03] <SpeedEvil> I forgot about ringing
[15:01:20] <archivist> varesa, my lathe has a thyristor speed controller, they were common at one time for spindles
[15:02:15] <archivist> varesa, you can filter pwm to get an analogue level for speed
[15:03:36] <varesa> archivist: with this card the issue is not really generating a signal but figuring what signal it needs
[15:03:46] <varesa> (yet) atleast
[15:04:46] <archivist> replace the d/a output with your filtered pwm (with any isolation needed)
[15:07:31] <archivist> or add a parallel card to drive the bits on the d/a input
[15:08:09] <jdh> it has switch selectable fixed speeds?
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[15:13:31] <varesa> jdh: the whole machine was controlled by a now-broken controller-box which handled all the logic stuff
[15:15:25] <varesa> archivist: what I meant I can put stuff on the 6-bit input but I can't get a output from it
[15:15:38] <varesa> either I am missing some input or something is broken
[15:16:01] <varesa> http://i.imgur.com/IIApjfY.jpg
[15:17:32] <varesa> 6 pins from the top connector went to the cpu module, right side is power supplies 5V, 2x 10V, 230V, 5 thin wires at the bottom go to the card with the switch elements
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[15:42:26] <archivist> varesa, I guess the 5 chips to the left are the opto isolators, if you can figure them out you should get most the way there
[15:44:00] <archivist> too out of focus to read chip part numbers
[15:44:06] <varesa> archivist: the top-left chip is an open-collector output buffer which drives the optos which go to the chip on their right that is the D/A
[15:44:27] <varesa> 4 small ones in the center are OP-amps
[15:45:02] <archivist> there may be an enable too
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[15:47:27] <varesa> IIRC the D/A is a MC1408 (https://www.physics.rutgers.edu/ugrad/327/MC1408-8_3.pdf)
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[15:51:33] <skunkworks> it seems gene is trying to get by his hardware limitations with a 'not quite right' hal setup/
[15:52:11] <skunkworks> and blaming linuxcnc. and I don't understand his limits issue.
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[15:55:43] <pcw_home_> Yeah gene has been complaining about the hm2 velocity estimation (says its too noisy) but I cant duplicate
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[16:01:13] <archivist> he does seem to do things the hard way
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[16:11:26] * skunkworks rigid tapped a bunch of 10-32's on the big machine recently...
[16:12:25] <skunkworks> and yes - you have to take into acount the de-accel of the spindle - ours has a ton of rotating mass and a not so powerfull vfd.
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[16:17:39] <pcw_home_> did you see (Dave A?s) HAL stuff to capturing the overtravel?
[16:18:10] <skunkworks> I didn't look at it close...
[16:19:52] <skunkworks> it started to make my head hurt...
[16:20:25] <cradek> you should tap slow enough that it doesn't overtravel very far
[16:20:45] * cradek has only simple obvious solutions
[16:22:12] <pcw_home_> I guess people are in a hurry
[16:23:44] <pcw_home_> also dont (non vector) VFDs get kind of funky at really low speeds?
[16:23:58] <skunkworks> turn and a half-sih at 60rpm... http://youtu.be/LLcztAbgEcU
[16:24:13] <cradek> wow, that's a lot
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[16:24:20] <cradek> I guess I'm spoiled
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[16:24:38] <cradek> I use 400 rpm? and I bet overtravel is no more than that
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[16:24:49] <cradek> I've never really thought or worried about the overtravel
[16:25:11] <cradek> your coarse pitch sure makes it worse
[16:25:18] <skunkworks> http://youtu.be/2E3PMooch1k
[16:25:30] <skunkworks> 400rpm is scarier..
[16:25:52] <cradek> is that 1-8?
[16:26:01] <skunkworks> I think so
[16:26:25] <cradek> I think (dim memory) it will abort after 10 turns of overtravel
[16:26:43] <skunkworks> yes - I found that out quite quickly.. :)
[16:26:49] <cradek> yikes
[16:26:59] <cradek> what does it do exactly?
[16:27:21] <skunkworks> I don't remember - we had talked about it a couple years ago.
[16:27:52] <cradek> I can have the same conversation every few years without being bothered much by remembering the previous ones
[16:28:10] <skunkworks> right
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[16:30:26] <skunkworks> probably testable in the lathe sim - increassing the spindle acceleration..
[16:30:46] <cradek> 2007! Can't believe it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNn-Yr7it5s
[16:31:28] <skunkworks> I was there!
[16:31:46] <skunkworks> love the comments..
[16:32:12] <Jymmm> Was that ohio?
[16:32:40] <cradek> I think it was illinois somewhere
[16:32:59] <Jymmm> Ok, then there's a photos of you all too iirc
[16:33:05] <Jymmm> =)
[16:33:37] <Loetmichel> *harhar* my wife just photographed me at coming home... her comment: "the late judge dredd coming home" -> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=15295 http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=15298 ;-)
[16:33:57] <cradek> sam's videos: machinery machinery machinery machinery machinery machinery machinery machinery stella stella
[16:34:52] <Jymmm> Loetmichel: Your reply should be: "Ewww, fluid transfer"
[16:35:15] <Jymmm> oh wait, wrong movie. nm
[16:35:57] <Loetmichel> hrhr
[16:36:17] <Jymmm> Loetmichel: (it's the only tagline I remembered)
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[16:42:57] <Jymmm> cradek: skunkworks http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/cncworkshop/cncworkshopemc.jpg 2006:05:19 13:42:04
[16:44:25] <skunkworks> wow - steve stallings looks young!
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[16:46:26] <Jymmm> "<cradek> I have new glasses so I look *even sexier* now than in those photos "
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[16:49:42] <archivist> 4 beard fails
[16:50:52] <Jymmm> "<cradek> oh look, we've promised rigid tapping "
[16:51:08] <Jymmm> heh
[16:51:53] <skunkworks> favorite picture.. http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/Fest2013/DSC_3937.JPG
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[16:52:32] <zeeshan> has anyone used a truck like this:
[16:52:45] <zeeshan> http://www.uhaul.com/reservations/images/Equipment/Trucks/17Large.png
[16:52:49] <zeeshan> to move a 4000lb machine
[16:52:54] <zeeshan> that was on skids
[16:53:10] <skunkworks> (I think dad was trying to take a picture without dropping his doughnut..)
[16:53:18] <Jymmm> lol
[16:53:31] <Jymmm> zeeshan: how far?
[16:53:37] <zeeshan> 100 miles
[16:54:19] <Jymmm> zeeshan: there usually is a GVW on the door. They are really just van chassis much of the time.
[16:54:40] <zeeshan> the gross vehicle weight is 14,050lb
[16:54:43] <zeeshan> max load is 5,930lb
[16:54:50] <zeeshan> im not worried about the maximum weight
[16:54:54] <zeeshan> im worried about the machine going through the floor
[16:54:55] <zeeshan> hehe
[16:55:10] <archivist> never mind gross, what is the net carrying weight
[16:55:10] <Jymmm> Ok, and height clearance? angled?
[16:55:14] <skunkworks> we almost did - but the machine was too tall...
[16:55:15] <zeeshan> cause from what i recall these uhaul trucks use a combination of wood and aluminuim
[16:55:41] <archivist> you want a flatbed designed for the weight
[16:55:47] <zeeshan> the head is angled
[16:55:59] <zeeshan> yea flatbed would be the best cause it's all steel
[16:56:08] <zeeshan> but i cant find a place that rents them
[16:56:09] <Jymmm> zeeshan: No, I mean if you have to tilt the skid to get it in/out
[16:56:23] <Jymmm> zeeshan: youhave a forklift at both sites?
[16:56:28] <zeeshan> yes forklift on both sites
[16:57:09] <Jymmm> zeeshan: Like skunkworks said, I might use a sacraficial 4x8 sheet of plywood for added support
[16:57:35] <zeeshan> hmm thats not a bad idea at all
[16:57:36] <zeeshan> :D
[16:57:38] * skunkworks doesn't remember saying that....
[16:58:20] <Jymmm> skunkworks: sorry, my bad
[16:58:38] <skunkworks> heh
[16:58:56] <skunkworks> I may have thought it - but that is creapy...
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[16:59:18] <Jymmm> whats creepy about it?
[16:59:44] <Jymmm> GMTA
[16:59:51] <skunkworks> no one needs Jymmm reading their mind...
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[17:00:24] <zeeshan> sweet http://bennetttruckrentals.com/flatbed.php
[17:00:24] <zeeshan> you can rent flat beds
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[17:01:06] <archivist> thats the right toy to move a lump
[17:01:10] <skunkworks> normally you find an acquaintance that has one...
[17:01:16] <Jymmm> Ok, now THAT is creepy.... I've always wanted that ability, to know the motives and intensions of others
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[17:02:10] <Jymmm> Doesn't home depot rent by the hour a HD truck?
[17:02:12] <archivist> skunkworks, that is the easy way, I sometimes help the over the road trucky
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[17:04:48] <zeeshan> okay i think im just gonna rent a flatbed
[17:05:03] <zeeshan> $149-> 100 free km, 15 cent/km additional, 40$ insurance.
[17:05:48] <FinboySlick> zeeshan: Sounds like a good investment to avoid yourself trouble.
[17:06:02] <zeeshan> its a lot cheaper than getting a machine rigger
[17:06:09] <zeeshan> i got quoted anywhere from 580 to 750
[17:06:29] <FinboySlick> zeeshan: What sort of beasty are you getting?
[17:06:34] <CaptHindsight> zeeshan: "25 years of age and older, with full G class license"
[17:06:42] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: yes im an old fart
[17:06:54] <archivist> the license though?
[17:07:07] <zeeshan> so ttotal cost will be $250 w/ taxes in
[17:07:14] <zeeshan> archivist: G license is a standar dlicense here
[17:07:16] <CaptHindsight> whats a class G in Canada? over 10K lbs or something?
[17:07:20] <Jymmm> zeeshan: Do you have a Class G license?
[17:07:21] <zeeshan> graduated license after 3 years or something
[17:07:24] <zeeshan> yea
[17:07:27] <zeeshan> anyone driving on the road has a G
[17:07:28] <Jymmm> cool
[17:07:53] <zeeshan> this works out great
[17:08:02] <zeeshan> ill drive my car there, pick up truck
[17:08:07] <zeeshan> do all the stuff, drop truck back off
[17:08:09] <zeeshan> pick up car
[17:08:14] <zeeshan> dont need to rely on anyone else! :P
[17:08:29] <archivist> over here the limit is 7.5 tons for old farts, youngsters now need to take a test to go over 3.5
[17:08:30] <Jymmm> In the states, everyone has a Class C. Calss A&B are commercial, and M is motorcycle
[17:08:45] <zeeshan> we have G1 G2 G
[17:09:07] <Jymmm> plus endorsements: airbrakes, hazmat, passanger, etc
[17:09:08] <zeeshan> g1 is written test, can't drive on highways, need a person with G with 5 years of experience to be with you at all times
[17:09:19] <zeeshan> G2 you can drive by yoruself on highway, but 0% alcohol consumption
[17:09:28] <zeeshan> G you can be drinking and driving.
[17:09:29] <zeeshan> :)
[17:09:42] <Jymmm> zeeshan: , wait, are you serious?!
[17:09:46] <zeeshan> no, but almost
[17:09:52] <zeeshan> you can have a .8% blood alcohol level
[17:09:53] <FinboySlick> zeeshan: What if you inject?
[17:10:05] <FinboySlick> Ah damn.
[17:10:16] <Jymmm> zeeshan: ah
[17:10:28] <Jymmm> cough syrup
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[17:10:57] <zeeshan> i wonder if i should just tilt the hydraulic bed
[17:11:06] <zeeshan> to slide the mill down
[17:11:17] <Jymmm> Has anyone used one fof those headlamp restore kits? Do they work?
[17:11:18] <zeeshan> instead of asking the local construction people to help me
[17:11:21] <zeeshan> w/ their forklift
[17:11:34] <Jymmm> zeeshan: Do you have a way to raise the mill if it tips over?
[17:11:34] <archivist> only if it has a winch
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[17:11:44] <FinboySlick> zeeshan: Unless you're used to doing that kind of stuff, I wouldn't recommend it.
[17:11:52] <zeeshan> we did that with my bridgeport
[17:11:55] <zeeshan> but thats only 2500lb
[17:11:59] <zeeshan> this thing looks a bit top heavy
[17:12:17] <archivist> take bits off to lighten
[17:12:21] <zeeshan> Jymmm: yes engine hoist
[17:12:21] <zeeshan> :)
[17:12:43] <Jymmm> zeeshan: Well, if you got a way to CYA, then why not =)
[17:12:53] <zeeshan> ill make sure i make a video
[17:12:56] <zeeshan> just incase there is a fail
[17:13:00] <zeeshan> then you guys can make fun of me
[17:13:27] <FinboySlick> zeeshan: So long as you don't mess up *because* of the video.
[17:13:43] <Jymmm> zeeshan: Just be sure to capture the expression on your face and the first tear that rolls down your cheek
[17:13:55] <zeeshan> FinboySlick: im replacing my bridgeport for a ex-cell-o cnc mill that needs work
[17:15:07] <FinboySlick> zeeshan: Something like this? http://www.walker-tech.com/projects/excello605/Excello605VMC.jpg
[17:15:14] <zeeshan> kind of
[17:15:30] <zeeshan> http://media.exapro.com/product/2013/06/P30626055/c9916f42d051bbea1b0e1fd550e9b280/used-ex-cell-o-602-vertical-cnc-milling-machine-p30626055_2.jpg
[17:15:32] <zeeshan> looks like this
[17:15:35] <zeeshan> but its blue
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[17:16:33] <Jymmm> does kinda look top (or at least side) heavish
[17:16:38] <FinboySlick> Can't see the foot too well but I don't think I'd tilt that more than 30°
[17:16:38] <CaptHindsight> Jymmm: the restore kits with just the polish?
[17:16:46] <zeeshan> main reason im going for it is cause it has #40 taper, ball screws, dc servos already
[17:16:50] <Jymmm> CaptHindsight: and sandpaper pads
[17:16:57] <zeeshan> and possibly servo drives that work
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[17:17:20] <zeeshan> FinboySlick: your units didnt come out right
[17:17:30] <zeeshan> i see 30 angstrom
[17:17:31] <zeeshan> lol
[17:17:47] <CaptHindsight> Jymmm: the plastic headlights are a urethane that polishes just like a car finish
[17:18:55] <FinboySlick> zeeshan: Well, 30 angstrom/m would likely be safe ;)
[17:19:24] <CaptHindsight> Jymmm: you can also clean them up and spray them with a clear urethane
[17:20:27] <Jymmm> CaptHindsight: Mine are pretty yellowed, I'll need to wet sand them at the very least.
[17:21:01] <CaptHindsight> Jymmm: see if the yellow is just on the surface
[17:21:24] <Jymmm> CaptHindsight: it is
[17:21:38] <CaptHindsight> then you should be good
[17:21:56] <Jymmm> Sadly, the sidemarker lens are perfectly clear (bastards)
[17:22:39] <Jymmm> CaptHindsight: Good with what though? $30 is a lot for just sandpaper and rubbing compounf imp
[17:22:48] <Jymmm> imo
[17:23:38] <CaptHindsight> just use rubbing compound and sandpaper #500, #1000, #1500 etc work your way up
[17:23:57] <CaptHindsight> heh, thats all the kits are
[17:24:18] <zeeshan> in my opinion
[17:24:24] <zeeshan> those kits work great for a couple of months
[17:24:27] <zeeshan> and the headlights yellow after
[17:24:45] <Jymmm> CaptHindsight: Also, I have some "Outdoor UV proof spray PU"m but guess what, it yellows and not withstand UV. so not sure on a protective coating
[17:24:50] <zeeshan> i think the oem headlights have some layer uv protecteant on them
[17:25:08] <CaptHindsight> I make those
[17:25:22] <zeeshan> you make what
[17:25:27] <Jymmm> zeeshan: yeah, but I haven't seen "UV Spray"
[17:25:37] <CaptHindsight> not the kits but UV blockers, coatings etc
[17:25:44] <zeeshan> so there is something!
[17:25:48] <CaptHindsight> I was just thinking about that
[17:25:50] <zeeshan> and i was smoking something
[17:25:53] <zeeshan> *wasnt
[17:28:02] <CaptHindsight> "Helmsman Spar Urethane coating that contained UV inhibitors diluted 50/50 with mineral spirits"
[17:28:28] <CaptHindsight> http://www.autopia.org/forum/topic/127989-headlight-restoration-and-uv-coating-for-the-average-diyer/
[17:28:44] <Jymmm> CaptHindsight: LOL, want to guess what brand of PU I had that didn't work?
[17:28:54] <CaptHindsight> do they sell mineral spirits in CA?
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[17:29:13] <Jymmm> CaptHindsight: I think so, not sure in the last year or so though
[17:30:19] <CaptHindsight> I don't know who makes a good UV absorbing spray urethane
[17:30:29] <CaptHindsight> it's not difficult to make
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[17:32:15] <CaptHindsight> there are some UV blockers that absorb and then breakdown (one time use only) and there are others that last for a long time
[17:32:45] <Jymmm> http://www.misterart.com/crafts/decorative-painting/sealers-finishers/krylon-spray-uv-resistant-clear.html
[17:33:19] <Jymmm> and NON YELLOWING =)
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[17:33:42] <CaptHindsight> the organic ones break down
[17:34:17] <Jymmm> define organic in this context?
[17:34:37] <CaptHindsight> if there are MSDS sheets looks for TiO2 nanoparticles and ZnO
[17:35:55] <Jymmm> http://www.misterart.com/crafts/decorative-painting/sealers-finishers/krylon-spray-uv-resistant-clear.html
[17:35:58] <Jymmm> doh
[17:36:21] <Jymmm> http://www.paintdocs.com/docs/webPDF.jsp?SITEID=DBS&UPC=724504013051
[17:36:29] <Jymmm> MSDS ^^^^^^
[17:36:55] <CaptHindsight> it only list the vehicle
[17:37:01] <CaptHindsight> all the solvents
[17:38:08] <CaptHindsight> http://www.tcichemicals.com/eshop/en/us/catalog/keyword_index/02093/ there are the types that don't last long
[17:40:00] <CaptHindsight> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium_dioxide#Sunscreen_and_UV_blocking_pigments_in_the_industry the down side is that it's also a Photocatalyst
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[17:44:49] <Jymmm> meaning what?
[17:45:01] <zeeshan> http://www.kijiji.ca/v-power-tool/hamilton/first-9x42-milling-machine-vfd-controlled-bridgeport-style/1019057627?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true
[17:45:04] <zeeshan> is my pricing fair? :)
[17:45:17] -!- pjm [pjm!~pjm@uhfsatcom.plus.com] has joined #linuxcnc
[17:45:41] <PetefromTn_> yes your price is reasonable.
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[17:50:59] <CaptHindsight> anyone have a source for a waterproof bellows ~12" wide?
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[17:54:01] <Jymmm> all I'm finding are round ones
[17:54:25] <CaptHindsight> http://www.buww.com/Roll%20up%20cover.html this might work as well
[17:54:40] <CaptHindsight> http://www.buww.com/4-buww-bellows-bellow.html
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[17:57:31] <Jymmm> CaptHindsight: you dont want to make your own, right?
[17:58:03] <CaptHindsight> Jymmm: trying not to since I have to build everything else
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[18:03:00] <Jymmm> CaptHindsight: gotcha
[18:03:31] <Jymmm> CaptHindsight: is this a retofit?
[18:04:10] <Jymmm> CaptHindsight: If so, think you could find something close here: http://buww.com/20findbrand.html
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[18:05:53] <Deejay> re
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[18:20:42] <PetefromTn_> Damn I love running this machine now that the spindle sounds awesome LOL
[18:23:12] <FinboySlick> PetefromTn_: But the question is? Are you done with the parts?
[18:23:15] <FinboySlick> We're all waiting here.
[18:23:30] <PetefromTn_> Working on it man LOL..
[18:23:43] <PetefromTn_> After yesterdays FIASCO with the cutter comp I was a little miffed hehe
[18:24:02] <FinboySlick> If you have time to listen to your spindle spin up, you aren't working hard enough!
[18:24:27] <PetefromTn_> but today I am running the same part pair and everything looked good after I fixed the cutter comp program to use computer comp
[18:25:10] <PetefromTn_> Oh I sit out here with my laptop while the machine is running doing the CAM work for the next parts. I am about halfway done with the CAM work on that set. Those will get run twice for two pairs which are the remaining parts.
[18:25:24] <PetefromTn_> Then I have to machine fixtures for the second side of all of them and do the second side.
[18:25:47] <PetefromTn_> Gonna take a little while. I told them give me 7-10 days to do it and they were happy with that apparently.
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[18:28:53] <FinboySlick> PetefromTn_: While we're on unreasonable demands and expectations... Have you read Dune yet? ;)
[18:29:36] <PetefromTn_> Problem with these parts is they do not have holes or features that make it easy to hold it down for milling. I am having to make fixture pockets to hold the shapes and since they are near the limit of my machines travels I am gonna have to drill and tap fixtures to position hold down clamps...
[18:29:57] <PetefromTn_> No not yet man. Meaning to... Like I am meaning to do a LOT of things LOL
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[18:30:30] <PetefromTn_> Been really busy lately with working on the machine and getting work in here and then making the parts. I was up until 2AM last night out in the shop running and working on this stuff.
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[18:32:55] <CaptHindsight> FinboySlick: if the move was 18 hours long how many pages is the book?
[18:33:03] <CaptHindsight> move/movie
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[18:33:40] <PetefromTn_> its actually several books apparently
[18:33:42] <FinboySlick> CaptHindsight: First three books are sort of normal length. The fourth lasts forever.
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[18:34:03] <FinboySlick> It's sort of painful to read but worth it for #5 and #6.
[18:34:43] <FinboySlick> CaptHindsight: The story spans about 5000 years from the first scene of the movie to the last page of book 6.
[18:35:30] <FinboySlick> 4000 of those years are book 4 ;)
[18:35:32] <CaptHindsight> I used to read science fiction short story years ago, never made it to anything over a few pages unless is was actual science
[18:36:04] <jdh> you can quit reading after the first 3
[18:36:06] <CaptHindsight> so it was written like a diary?
[18:36:30] <FinboySlick> jdh: I liked 5 and 6 and the focus on bene-geserit.
[18:36:50] <jdh> I didn't
[18:37:04] <jdh> but, they came many years after I read the real ones.
[18:37:40] <FinboySlick> jdh: Well, I consider all the ones by Frank himself to be the real ones. The ones by his kid aren't really worth it.
[18:42:16] <PetefromTn_> man I gotta figure out where to recycele this aluminum chips load LOL
[18:42:42] <PetefromTn_> or before long I am gonna be swimming in the schtuff...
[18:42:45] <jdh> build a furnace, recast
[18:42:55] <PetefromTn_> No thanks LOL
[18:43:00] <PetefromTn_> Just want it gone
[18:43:06] <PetefromTn_> I got enough projects over here..
[18:43:39] <FinboySlick> PetefromTn_: But then you could read Dune by the furnace instead of by the fireplace. It sounds like a great idea!
[18:43:44] <PetefromTn_> and if I can make a buck or two doing it that much the better.
[18:43:59] <Connor> http://3dprinter.dremel.com/
[18:44:02] <PetefromTn_> I need to hit the library and see if they got it.
[18:44:14] <Connor> OMG. Dremel making 3D printer! :)
[18:44:18] <jdh> you can get a paperback for $0.50
[18:44:23] <PetefromTn_> I think I owe like $10 in late fees from the last time.
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[18:44:35] <jdh> is edwin mckay used books still in knox?
[18:44:57] <PetefromTn_> no idea
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[18:45:18] <PetefromTn_> Jeez man before long every damn asshole in the world is gonna have their own 3d printer
[18:45:29] <PetefromTn_> except me
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[18:45:54] <FinboySlick> PetefromTn_: Well, build one when you're done the furnace, you lazy bastard.
[18:45:56] <Connor> $1k for it apparently.
[18:46:27] <PetefromTn_> Yeah If I am gonna build anything it is gonna be a CNC lathe retrofit or a plasma/router table with 4x8 capacity.
[18:46:54] <PetefromTn_> There is a SMOKIN' deal on a nice CNC lathe local to me but I am tapped out right now.
[18:47:02] <jdh> how smokin'?
[18:47:06] <jdh> and where?
[18:47:07] <PetefromTn_> damn thing would be perfect for my shop.
[18:47:10] <PetefromTn_> $2500.00?
[18:47:21] <PetefromTn_> slant bed toolchanger with tailstock
[18:47:34] <jdh> wonder if they would take a 9x20 trade-in
[18:47:42] <PetefromTn_> Good luck with that.
[18:47:52] <PetefromTn_> I gotta go pickup my daughter from school BRB...
[18:52:34] <archivist> picture or it didnt happen, linuxcnc on a hobbing machine http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2014/2014_09_17_Barber_Colman_cnc/
[18:52:58] <Connor> dang, slow feed.
[18:53:05] <archivist> needs vfd wiring and some form of X sorting out
[18:53:23] <archivist> connor adsl line uplink
[18:53:31] <Connor> I can tell.
[18:54:13] <FinboySlick> archivist: and we're all hopping on it too.
[18:54:50] <archivist> finally got a request for small involute gears so it was time to do it older pics http://www.archivist.info/cnc/hob2/
[18:55:03] <FinboySlick> archivist: what are those dual-needle dials in the top left?
[18:55:20] <archivist> temperature/humidity
[18:56:24] <FinboySlick> archivist: less arcane than I expected...
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[18:57:08] <Rab> archivist, the job on the screen doesn't look like a convincing toolpath for this application. ^_^
[18:57:24] <archivist> there is a 45 tooth plastic wheel in the machine so I could check division
[18:57:41] <archivist> hehe
[18:58:13] <archivist> it is very much in hal does not need much gcode at all
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[18:59:08] <FinboySlick> archivist: essentially electronic gearing?
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[18:59:29] <archivist> yes exactly that
[19:00:03] <archivist> need to deal with left/right hand hobs yet
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[19:24:49] <CaptHindsight> http://phys.org/news/2014-09-d-advance-make-it-yourself-lab-equipment.html 3-D printing lab equipment, not a bad application
[19:25:12] <PetefromTn_> Okay back again..;)
[19:27:21] <CaptHindsight> http://phys.org/news/2013-11-diy-scientist-lab-equipment.html
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[19:36:41] <PetefromTn_> anybody good at speed and feed for a woodruff cutter around here?
[19:37:07] <PetefromTn_> This thing is a quarter inch tall cut height and 1.015 diameter best I can measure it.
[19:37:43] <PetefromTn_> Right now I am running it at about 1700 RPM and feed of 12 IPM. Cut looks good but it does not sound that great.
[19:37:45] <archivist> I imagine you have to feel that to some extent, see what works feels right
[19:38:32] <PetefromTn_> yeah I know I programmed it at 10IPM and the cut engagement is .125 deep
[19:39:25] <PetefromTn_> Seems like the speed is too fast but I played with the override and going slower sounds kinda crummy too
[19:39:25] <archivist> number of teeth engaged can set up a resonance
[19:39:45] <PetefromTn_> This cutter does not have top or bottom relief so that may have something to do with it as well.
[19:40:33] <varesa> first ever milling done :)
[19:40:36] <PetefromTn_> same cutter with top relief was like another hundred bucks more...
[19:40:41] <PetefromTn_> Awesome man!!
[19:40:45] <PetefromTn_> What did you cut?
[19:40:56] <archivist> like when I am using a slitting saw, the start and end of cut sound terrible, but mid cut is ok
[19:41:10] <PetefromTn_> yeah that is pretty much what I am experiencing.
[19:41:25] <PetefromTn_> Coming out of the radius at the end sounds real shitty LOL
[19:41:26] <varesa> The LinuxCNC text that I found the comment afterwards that it was not intended for actual milling :p
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[19:41:38] <archivist> get some ear defenders /me ducks
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[19:42:52] <PetefromTn_> what kinda machine do you have there?
[19:43:13] <varesa> Terco CNC 45 that I converted to pc-controlled
[19:43:16] <PetefromTn_> archivist Yeah right I got some phones around here.
[19:43:21] <varesa> (or am in the progress)
[19:43:24] <PetefromTn_> Ooh a Terco nice
[19:43:36] <PetefromTn_> That is like a small commercial RF45 looking thing right..
[19:43:48] <PetefromTn_> does it have a toolchanger?
[19:44:59] <varesa> https://www.google.fi/search?q=terco+cnc+45&tbm=isch
[19:45:28] <varesa> It has a tool holder and a pneumatic release/attach
[19:46:30] <varesa> I figured how to use it's internal stepper drives and fixed the endstop wiring but could not figure out the spindle control board
[19:46:59] <varesa> so now it is fed from a external 230V-120V transformer, a rectifier and a switch
[19:49:27] <DaViruz> varesa: http://elektronikforumet.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=41953&start=15
[19:49:31] <DaViruz> in swedish however
[19:49:48] <DaViruz> but it appears he got his working
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[19:51:39] <zeeshan> yo guys
[19:51:49] <zeeshan> in your cnc controller enclosures, do you have multiple ground locations?
[19:51:55] <zeeshan> i'm hooking up all the safety stuff on the lathe
[19:52:13] <zeeshan> it'd be the easiest to have all the power supplies are 1 ground point
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[19:52:32] <zeeshan> and then have all the ground wires coming from the breaker panel at another ground point along with the vfd and motor ground
[19:53:49] <varesa> DaViruz: from a quick look at that it seems that the guy just replaced the original with something more modern?
[19:53:53] <PetefromTn_> varesa Looks like a nice machine man..
[19:53:56] <archivist> if you get it wrong you can have noise from say a vfd's ground current being seen by an input
[19:54:43] <zeeshan> archivist: what do you mean
[19:55:23] <varesa> PetefromTn_: wasn't too expensive either. The machine was less than what 3x gecko drivers cost
[19:55:31] <DaViruz> varesa: oh, you're correct.
[19:55:39] <PetefromTn_> well thats nice..
[19:55:48] <PetefromTn_> Sounds like you got a good deal like I did...
[19:56:12] <archivist> zeeshan, http://www.epanorama.net/documents/groundloop/basics.html
[19:56:16] <varesa> and it looks like I might even be able to use the original drivers and just build/get a spindle control board (though for my use variac + switch would be just enough)
[19:56:44] <PetefromTn_> Well it sure is nice to have spindle control and feedback on a mill I can tell you...
[19:56:51] <zeeshan> archivist: i won't have any ground loops
[19:57:02] <DaViruz> i had manual spindle control on my first mill for the longest time, it was fine really
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[19:57:30] <archivist> zeeshan, so you think, remember the separate points
[19:57:44] <PetefromTn_> sure it will work but not having to remember to turn on the spindle and being able to control the speed from program is awesome once you have it.
[19:58:16] <zeeshan> archivist: isn't the enclosure chassis acting like 1 big ground?
[19:58:20] <PetefromTn_> and its typically so simple to setup it is not worth not having it really usually.
[19:58:23] <jdh> I haven't hooked up the spindle on my new router and have almost broken things several times since I still forget to turn it on.
[19:58:30] <varesa> PetefromTn_: yeah I'll propably get it at some point but it's not the first on the list
[19:58:31] <DaViruz> i never forgot to start the spindle. and where i set the speed wasn't really a concern
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[19:58:45] <DaViruz> sure it's nicer to have it integrated though
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[20:00:12] <PetefromTn_> jdh I know how that feels... when I first got the RF45 working I was so concentrating on how the program was gonna run one time I forgot to turn on the spindle and that was not fun LOL... You would think the lack of noise would alert you to a problem LOL
[20:00:54] <jdh> my old router had control , as does my mill so I'm not used to thinking about it.
[20:01:04] <varesa> I think the next two tasks are finding out why the stepper sound really rough at lower speeds and making an actual cable between the pc and the mill instead of hooking stuff at random points on a pcb inside the case :)
[20:01:12] <jdh> my chinese water cooled spindle is amazingly quiet.
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[20:01:31] <DaViruz> i don't want to seem cocky but i don't get how that could happen really
[20:01:46] <DaViruz> to me it seems like trying to use a bandsw without turning it on.. :)
[20:02:10] <DaViruz> i guess if you're accustomed to having spindle control it might become a problem
[20:02:20] <PetefromTn_> I don't get how it happened either but it did.....:D
[20:02:42] <jdh> generally, I hit start and it does what it needs to do.
[20:02:43] <archivist> zeeshan, yes and random loop paths if the currents are high enough
[20:02:52] <zeeshan> archivist: sec. ill show you adiagram
[20:03:00] <varesa> on that topic, any ideas why the steppers sound "rough" at lower speeds?
[20:03:34] <archivist> because they do, you can microstep to make them less resonant
[20:03:49] <varesa> My rapids give a nice "whine" but if I move slower it sounds like it stepped in bursts and paused in between
[20:04:07] <DaViruz> do your drives have microstepping?
[20:04:12] <varesa> archivist: I have no idea if the Terco drives even know what "microstepping" is :P
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[20:09:13] <ssi> peeet
[20:09:18] <zeeshan> http://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/docs/mechanicals/KL7220.pdf
[20:09:20] <PetefromTn_> yeah man
[20:09:23] <zeeshan> anyone see where the ground for this power supply is?
[20:09:45] <zeeshan> archivist: http://i.imgur.com/l00amiN.png
[20:09:49] <jdh> mounting screw
[20:10:02] <zeeshan> jdh what mounting screw
[20:10:06] <zeeshan> theres 4 :P
[20:10:12] <jdh> any of them.
[20:10:14] <ssi> any mounting screw :P
[20:10:20] <zeeshan> but why do you need a ground
[20:10:28] <ssi> short-circuit safety
[20:10:33] <zeeshan> let me rephrase
[20:10:49] <zeeshan> when the power supply metal chassis is bonded to the enclosure chassis
[20:10:56] <zeeshan> and the enclosure chassis has a ground going to the service panel
[20:11:05] <zeeshan> technically the power supply is grounded?
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[20:11:08] <ssi> yes
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[20:11:22] <zeeshan> how come for some other power supply, they specifically give you a ground pin
[20:11:32] <zeeshan> and you can't just ground the chassis of the power supply?
[20:11:38] <ssi> if there's a dedicated frame ground pin, I'd use it
[20:11:38] <DaViruz> you're assuming a metal enclosure
[20:11:45] <zeeshan> DaViruz: no i'm not
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[20:12:05] <ssi> if not, verify continuity from the chassis of the power supply to your mains ground
[20:12:29] <zeeshan> okay
[20:12:58] <zeeshan> check out my grounds drawing please!
[20:13:05] <zeeshan> are there any ground loops? =)
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[20:13:15] <ssi> link it again
[20:13:24] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/l00amiN.png
[20:13:26] <zeeshan> from what i see
[20:13:32] <zeeshan> each equipment only has 1 pathway to ground
[20:13:36] <zeeshan> to the service panel ground
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[20:13:55] <ssi> best performance would be to have everything leading to the same point on the chassis
[20:13:56] <archivist> you have two gnd wires to the service?
[20:14:01] <zeeshan> archivist: yes
[20:14:07] <zeeshan> i think thats a mistake i'm making
[20:14:18] <zeeshan> one ground is from the 110V circuit..
[20:14:22] <zeeshan> and the other is from the 220V circuit
[20:14:44] <ssi> these are all AC grounds
[20:14:45] <zeeshan> the reason i wanted to wire both of them is because sometimes the 110V circuit is active which runs my computer and breakoutboard
[20:14:47] <ssi> which are safety grounds
[20:14:52] <ssi> there shouldn't be currents in them
[20:14:55] <ssi> so ground loops aren't an issue
[20:15:09] <archivist> vfd filter currents go to those gnds
[20:15:26] <zeeshan> yes
[20:15:37] <ssi> to frame ground, not neutral?
[20:15:44] <zeeshan> usually to frame ground
[20:15:55] <zeeshan> theres a specific attachment point on the vfd
[20:16:06] <zeeshan> it's all plastic and you see a ground blade sticking out
[20:16:12] <zeeshan> which seems to be going to some circuit
[20:16:17] <archivist> ssi that is why vfd makers tell you not to use an earth leakage breaker
[20:16:30] <zeeshan> anyway tell me friends
[20:16:31] <ssi> ah
[20:16:35] <zeeshan> do you see issues w/ my grounding
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[20:16:41] <zeeshan> even though i have 2 grounds going to the service panel
[20:16:50] <zeeshan> which will form a ground loop
[20:16:54] <ssi> 2 grounds from teh same point to the panel isn't really an issue
[20:16:57] <jdh> my vfd has 4 wires, 3-phases and ground. Connector has 4 wires. cable has 4 wires. ground wire is not connected
[20:17:08] <zeeshan> sweet!
[20:17:10] <ssi> even if they're different resistances, it's only one node
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[20:17:13] <ssi> there can't be a http://i.imgur.com/l00amiN.png
[20:17:16] <ssi> er
[20:17:32] <ssi> there can't be a ∆V between two nodes if there's only one node
[20:17:48] <zeeshan> that came as characters to me
[20:17:50] <zeeshan> e a ∆V be
[20:17:52] <zeeshan> that part
[20:17:54] <archivist> remember filters are often an accessory for vfds
[20:17:57] <ssi> delta V
[20:17:58] <zeeshan> i dunno wtf is wrong with my bullshit
[20:18:35] <zeeshan> so a ground loop would be something like
[20:18:44] <zeeshan> if i ran 2 wires from my stepper #1
[20:18:51] <zeeshan> and grounded them at 2 different points of the chassis
[20:19:14] <ssi> here's a good way to illustrate a ground loop
[20:19:24] <ssi> if you have two analog sensors that are grounded to two different points
[20:19:35] <ssi> and because of currents in your ground paths, those two points sit 2 volts apart from each other
[20:19:43] <ssi> then your sensors aren't referenced to the same "ground"
[20:20:07] <ssi> when currents flow in a ground, you get a variance in voltage at the point where everything's grounded, which causes noise, etc
[20:20:10] <archivist> hence star gnd
[20:20:13] <ssi> right
[20:20:19] <ssi> if you star everything, then everything is referenced to the same ground
[20:20:30] <ssi> even if currents flow from that point to the panel, the star is always the same
[20:20:34] <ssi> so everything has the same "zero"
[20:20:43] <archivist> a case is not star, close though
[20:20:44] <zeeshan> let me understand your cryptic message
[20:21:30] <zeeshan> that is where i am confused
[20:21:49] <zeeshan> why is your panel/case considered a 'star'
[20:22:03] <zeeshan> you should technically be able to mount grounds anywhere on a panel
[20:22:06] <ssi> consider the case as a wire
[20:22:06] <archivist> you have two star points in your drawing
[20:22:18] <zeeshan> archivist: yes
[20:22:21] <ssi> if your two star points in your drawing were connected with a piece of 28awg wire
[20:22:28] <zeeshan> but i'm assuming the case has little to no resistance
[20:22:29] <ssi> you could easily imagine those having very different voltages
[20:22:41] <zeeshan> ssi: yes because it has resistance
[20:22:44] <ssi> right
[20:22:45] <zeeshan> but in the case of a case
[20:22:47] <ssi> well the case has resistance too
[20:22:51] <zeeshan> (i wrote that on purpose)
[20:22:54] <archivist> never assume a case is low R especially at RF
[20:23:07] <zeeshan> i mean when i hook my multimeter
[20:23:11] <zeeshan> shit outputs 0 ohms :D
[20:23:27] <ssi> and what's the accuracy and precision of your multimeter?
[20:23:32] <archivist> noise is high frequency, the case is an inductor
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[20:23:33] <zeeshan> so in reality you guys are saying 0.001 ohms will cause issue?
[20:23:50] <zeeshan> okay
[20:23:51] <zeeshan> fine
[20:23:55] <zeeshan> you've convinced me.
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[20:24:01] <zeeshan> ill hook everything to 1 ground point.
[20:24:03] <zeeshan> bastards
[20:24:08] <archivist> heh
[20:24:09] <zeeshan> making me run 2 extra wires :(
[20:24:29] <zeeshan> thanks for the help :)
[20:24:31] <ssi> even if you just run a single piece of 10AWG between those two star points you'll be better off
[20:24:42] <PCW> the case is pretty close to a point relative to the resistance and inductance of the wires
[20:24:52] <Jymmm> zeeshan: the horror of it all... two extra wires?! OMG =)
[20:25:19] <PCW> so practically it may not matter much
[20:25:32] <ssi> at the end of the day, it's all relative to the ground currents likely to flow, and the impedance of your case at the frequency of those currents
[20:25:58] <ssi> I don't know what "power supply 1" and "power supply 2" are powering
[20:25:58] <zeeshan> well if it was such a big deal
[20:26:07] <zeeshan> why do cars use the entire chassis as a massive ground
[20:26:11] <zeeshan> and theres like 29032831 ground points
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[20:26:27] <zeeshan> ssi power supply 1 is powering the steppers
[20:26:34] <ssi> they use the engine block as a star ground for the most point
[20:26:38] <PCW> at the frequencies of interest (to say 1 MHZ max) the case is a pretty good point
[20:26:40] <zeeshan> power supply 2 is powering the breakoutboard/digital logic 5v etc
[20:26:41] <ssi> frequencies are low, and currents are low except in a few places
[20:26:57] <ssi> and for the places where the currents matter, there are HUGE bonding straps
[20:27:03] <ssi> like starter and alternator
[20:27:10] <zeeshan> well the carrier frequency of a typical vfd is like
[20:27:12] <zeeshan> 10-15khZ
[20:27:23] <PCW> it not the carrier...
[20:27:29] <zeeshan> then?
[20:27:30] <PCW> its the edge rate
[20:27:31] <archivist> its the edges
[20:27:56] <archivist> rate of change in volts per microsecond
[20:28:00] <zeeshan> google comes up with nothing for 'edge rate vfd'
[20:28:11] <rythmnbls> and the ringing at the top and bottom of those edges
[20:28:28] <zeeshan> so in reality if you're opertating a vfd at 200Hz
[20:28:36] <zeeshan> what kind of noise are you generating?
[20:28:41] <zeeshan> (estimate)
[20:28:42] <ssi> theoretically, all of it
[20:28:50] <archivist> in reality there is a lot of electrical noise
[20:28:53] <ssi> a square wave contains all odd harmonics, infinitely
[20:29:03] <PCW> with no filtering small IGBT output switching times are typically in the .5 to 2 usec region
[20:29:03] <zeeshan> yes but the higher haramonics die off
[20:29:10] <ssi> yeah, why do they die off?
[20:29:19] <ssi> because the system doesn't have infinite frequency response
[20:29:22] <zeeshan> well for acoustics/mechanics
[20:29:27] <PCW> not until they cause havoc
[20:29:38] <zeeshan> it'll be because of acoustic dampening or mechanical dampening
[20:29:49] <zeeshan> so i guess in the case of electronics, a dampener is like a resistor
[20:29:53] <ssi> in electrical systems, it's due to reactance
[20:29:55] <PCW> VFDs very ofter are the cause of severe noise issues
[20:30:16] <zeeshan> so the bottom line is
[20:30:17] <PCW> (and ground loops)
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[20:30:23] <zeeshan> if youre using a vfd in the same enclosure
[20:30:30] <zeeshan> ground it using a star pattern and call it a day
[20:30:33] <archivist> add screening
[20:30:41] <zeeshan> archivist: but i havent had any noise issues
[20:30:50] <zeeshan> everything seems to work? :P
[20:30:52] <archivist> yet, you will one day
[20:31:05] <PCW> 350V square wave into the motors winding capacitance to ground...
[20:31:05] <Jymmm> =)
[20:31:24] <zeeshan> i left enough room around the vfd
[20:31:27] <zeeshan> to make a faraday cage
[20:31:27] <archivist> my vfd on the 5 axis chucks out noise
[20:31:38] <zeeshan> archivist: i can audibly hear noise
[20:31:39] <varesa> what CAM software do you use?
[20:31:45] <zeeshan> but everything works fine.
[20:32:03] * Jymmm keys up his 100E HF radio near zeeshan's VFD =)
[20:32:12] <Jymmm> 100W*
[20:32:12] <zeeshan> from what i understand. the biggest problem is the wires going from the vfd to the motor
[20:32:15] <zeeshan> i have that shit in armor cable
[20:32:23] <zeeshan> and the armor cable is grounding on the chassis
[20:32:29] <Jymmm> zeeshan: twisted?
[20:32:38] <zeeshan> i dunno
[20:32:46] <zeeshan> not as severely has shielded cable
[20:32:53] <zeeshan> *as
[20:33:03] <zeeshan> i only have like 3" of wire exposed within the entire case
[20:33:05] <ssi> the armor will help shield radiated noise, but it does nothing about noise that's on the power lines themselves
[20:33:08] <zeeshan> where there is no casing
[20:33:25] <zeeshan> when you say power lines
[20:33:30] <zeeshan> you mean coming from the hydro service?
[20:33:32] <PCW> the biggest problem i have seen is the ground return current from motor capacitance
[20:33:51] <archivist> vfd can inject noise up the mains wires
[20:33:54] <ssi> your VFD can potentially put noise back on the mains
[20:33:55] <Jymmm> zeeshan: EMI can be introduced into the signal wires themselves. Twisted pair helps immune them to this. Thus why CAT5 cable is twisted pairs, and the twists on each pair is different too.
[20:34:02] <PCW> (best solution is common mode choke)
[20:34:59] <Jymmm> zeeshan: armored cable just helps prevent outside EMI/EFI interference.
[20:35:26] <zeeshan> well i was thinking that's what would be the most common method of emitting noise into my control signals
[20:35:30] <zeeshan> since theyre like 12" from the vfd
[20:36:18] <Jymmm> zeeshan: Sure, that's outside noise, but what about noise within the system?
[20:36:32] <zeeshan> all control wires are shielded
[20:37:05] <Jymmm> zeeshan: both ends?
[20:37:10] <zeeshan> 1
[20:37:15] <Jymmm> k
[20:37:17] <zeeshan> everything grounds to the chassis
[20:37:25] <zeeshan> on one end
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[20:37:41] <CaptHindsight> http://www.franksworkshop.com.au/CNC/Bellows/Bellows.htm DIY bellows
[20:37:43] <zeeshan> fak im late for class
[20:38:38] <Jymmm> CaptHindsight: Yeah, that's why I was asking yif you want to make one. LOTS of work
[20:39:58] <tjtr33> any favorites for small lot, small pcb production? (20pcs simple 2"x3") http://ibin.co/1agT4Jhx7Piw
[20:41:04] <CaptHindsight> tjtr33: ask jepler, he just made some small ones for that ARM board
[20:41:13] <tjtr33> thx!
[20:41:46] <CaptHindsight> but local there is a that outfit in Elk Grove, same or next day 1-2 layers
[20:42:40] <CaptHindsight> tjtr33: http://www.pcbontime.com/
[20:43:38] <tjtr33> CaptHindsight, Elk Grove isperfect for me, thx
[20:43:50] <CaptHindsight> http://www.pcbontime.com/special.html
[20:44:32] <tjtr33> they really have elk ya know, poor things fed from gumball machines , two bits gets you a handful of elk-chow
[20:48:43] <CaptHindsight> I'm surprised that they haven't turned it into a game lodge and charge people $1k per kill
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[21:00:07] <Deejay> gn8
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[21:23:45] <Tom_itx> tjtr33, use #hackvanna for board productino
[21:24:47] <Tom_itx> all your same day or US board houses will cost out the wazoo
[21:26:21] <Tom_itx> i've also used goldphoenix, laen's board service, itead and maybe a couple others
[21:26:32] <Tom_itx> laen's is US made
[21:26:38] <Tom_itx> but purple mask
[21:26:54] <kfoltman_> #hackvana
[21:26:55] <kfoltman_> single n
[21:27:03] <Tom_itx> typ ooo
[21:27:28] <kfoltman_> Tom_itx: dirtypcbs?
[21:27:29] <ssi> pcbonline.co is relatively cheap and quick
[21:27:33] <Tom_itx> he's been doing it a while and i've had good luck from the get go
[21:28:44] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.ddns01.com:81/~webpage/boards/USBTiny_Mkii/boards1.JPG
[21:28:52] <Tom_itx> those were goldphoenix i think
[21:29:28] <Tom_itx> after i did a few like that i decided it was easier to have them cut apart instead of panelized
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[21:32:23] <andypugh> I find that seeedstudio (3 e’s) are unfeasibly cheap and get me the boards in less than 2 weeks. Like $10 fo 10 boards.
[21:32:24] <PetefromTn_> Well the first pair is finished now I am almost ready to machine the first side of the other part. It has two mirrored pairs in a program. Should go much smoother since it is similar to the other program I just completed in most respects.
[21:32:45] <Tom_itx> seeed is ok, i've had a couple bad ones from them
[21:32:52] <Tom_itx> speed is about average
[21:33:01] <andypugh> At the price you can just toss the bad ones.
[21:33:33] <Tom_itx> yeah, hackvana is about the same and he usually gets me extras
[21:34:28] <Tom_itx> andypugh any new projects in the works?
[21:35:22] <andypugh> The clock that I was planning when I bought the first lathe, then thought “this would be better CNC” 7 years ago has found its way to the front of the queue.
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[21:57:25] <ssi> the only problem with seeed is the board size constraints
[21:57:52] <ssi> andypugh: I want to make a clock out of laser cut plywood; any thoughts on designs?
[21:58:56] <andypugh> Grasshopper escapement ought to suffer no wear.
[21:59:42] <andypugh> Harrison built his first longcase clock in 1713, at the age of 20. The mechanism was made entirely of wood, which was a natural choice of material for a joiner.
[21:59:48] <andypugh> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Harrison
[22:00:18] <andypugh> Impressively “Three of Harrison's early wooden clocks have survived: the first (1713) is at the Worshipful Company of Clockmakers' collection in the Guildhall; the second (1715) is in the Science Museum; and the third (1717) is at Nostell Priory in Yorkshire, the face bearing the inscription "John Harrison Barrow". The Nostell example, in the billiards room of this stately home, has a Victorian outer case, which has bee
[22:00:19] <andypugh> thoughtfully provided with small glass windows on each side of the movement so that the wooden workings may be inspected.”
[22:01:51] <SpeedEvil> ssi: I suppose by that you do not mean with a $5 plastic clock module on the back? :)
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[22:07:13] <ssi> SpeedEvil: correct :)
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[22:07:37] <ssi> andypugh: harrison invented the marine chronometer, didn't he?
[22:07:59] <ssi> ha it's literally in the first sentence of the wiki article
[22:08:01] <ssi> :P
[22:09:11] <andypugh> If wood was good enough for him (and his wooden clocks have run for 300 years) then it ought to work for you.
[22:09:17] <ssi> agreed :)
[22:10:41] <ssi> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjZxXegy4s8
[22:12:15] <andypugh> There you are then.
[22:12:43] <andypugh> I like the grasshopperinees
[22:12:46] <ssi> I may have to draw something myself, and I dunno if I know enough yet :)
[22:12:51] <ssi> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1I0QKdNOUDM
[22:12:53] <ssi> that one's cool too
[22:12:59] <ssi> he charges big money for his plans tho
[22:13:57] <andypugh> archivist: did you see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjZxXegy4s8 it’s the only example I know of horological humour.
[22:14:08] <SpeedEvil> andypugh: I question if they've been running all the time
[22:14:46] <andypugh> SpeedEvil: The Nostel Priory one famously has.
[22:14:53] <SpeedEvil> ah
[22:15:01] <andypugh> hat doesn’t make it true.
[22:17:13] <SpeedEvil> indeed
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[22:19:28] <Mark___> hello anyone here ???
[22:21:11] <andypugh> No, nobody here at all ;-)
[22:21:32] <Mark___> Damn
[22:21:38] <LeelooMinai> Mark___: Only you and the echo
[22:22:00] <Mark___> echo whe
[22:22:03] <Mark___> opps
[22:22:21] <Mark___> echo good to hear I thought I was atlking to my self again
[22:22:49] <Mark___> andy tried the latest fix and got another error
[22:22:58] <andypugh> Aha!
[22:23:08] <andypugh> You’re you!
[22:23:19] <andypugh> OK, so, what was the error?
[22:23:36] <Mark___> Debug file information: Brother_TC-211.hal:247: Pin 'pid.spindle.command' was already linked to signal 'spindle-orient-pos' 5190 PID TTY STAT TIME COMMAND Stopping realtime threads Unloading hal components
[22:23:50] <andypugh> I have done the “HAL from memory” thing a few times and rarely had _quite_ so many errors
[22:23:50] <Mark___> and really I'm not me
[22:24:31] <Mark___> Do i just delete line 247 because it is repetitive
[22:26:41] <andypugh> No, it looks like I changed my mind and lost my train of thought. You probably want to delete the earlier line that says net spindle orient-pos orient.0.command => pid.spindle.command
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[22:27:43] <andypugh> No, hang on, I seem to be tying myslelf in knots again.
[22:27:44] <Mark___> looking good
[22:27:55] <Mark___> linux started fine
[22:28:54] <Mark___> machine is homing now
[22:29:07] <varesa> talking about starting, has anyone else encountered xfce-panel not starting with automatically?
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[22:29:41] <varesa> -with
[22:30:13] <andypugh> Mark___: Actually, whilst you now have an error-free HAL you also have an incorrect one, I think
[22:30:42] <Mark___> YUP
[22:30:48] <andypugh> The problem was that the second pid.spindle.command should have been a pid.spindle.output
[22:31:05] <Mark___> M19 works as a spindle brake in what ever position it is in
[22:31:36] <andypugh> M19 is not used at all in the setup I gave you
[22:31:46] <Mark___> it isn't
[22:31:48] <andypugh> (it could be addd)
[22:32:11] <Mark___> ok that would be nice
[22:32:24] <andypugh> But that config was intended to just align the spindle on any toolchange requet
[22:32:32] <Mark___> I could write a small sub program then for tool changing by hand
[22:33:00] <andypugh> I think your HAL should read net spindle-vel-cmd => sum2.0.in0
[22:33:01] <andypugh> net spindle-orient-pos orient.0.command => pid.spindle.command
[22:33:02] <andypugh> net spindle-orient-fb hm2_5i25.0.7i77.0.1.encoder.03.position => orient.0.position
[22:33:04] <andypugh> net spindle-orient-cmd pid.spindle.command sum2.0.in1
[22:33:05] <andypugh> net spindle-all-cmd sum2.0.out hm2_5i25.0.7i77.0.1.analogout3
[22:33:05] <andypugh> net tool-change-request pid.spindle.enable orient.0.enable
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[22:34:38] <andypugh> I also don’t see anything feeding pid.spindle.feedback
[22:35:35] <andypugh> So we also need to change:net spindle-orient-fb hm2_5i25.0.7i77.0.1.encoder.03.position => orient.0.position
[22:35:53] <andypugh> to: net spindle-orient-fb hm2_5i25.0.7i77.0.1.encoder.03.position => orient.0.position pid.spindle.feedback
[22:37:43] <andypugh> I hope you are learning something from all these deliberate errors :-)
[22:38:05] <andypugh> (I really should have tested it before posting it)
[22:38:21] <Mark___> I am getting a little bit of the sense of it, but way over my head still
[22:39:19] <Mark___> Debug file information: Brother_TC-211.hal:246: Pin 'hm2_5i25.0.7i77.0.1.encoder.03.position' does not exist 5770 PID TTY STAT TIME COMMAND Stopping realtime threads Unloading hal components
[22:39:41] <andypugh> Ah, yes, I just reintroduced a previous error
[22:39:55] <andypugh> net spindle-orient-fb hm2_5i25.0.encoder.03.position => orient.0.position pid.spindle.feedback
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[22:41:44] <Mark___> Debug file information: Brother_TC-211.hal:247: Pin 'pid.spindle.command' was already linked to signal 'spindle-orient-pos' 5940 PID TTY STAT TIME COMMAND Stopping realtime threads Unloading hal components
[22:41:52] <Mark___> and back again
[22:42:33] <andypugh> Can you pastebin the current version of the HAL file? My version still has all the bugs
[22:43:23] <Mark___> # Generated by PNCconf at Sat Sep 13 15:53:19 2014 # If you make changes to this file, they will be # overwritten when you run PNCconf again loadrt trivkins loadrt [EMCMOT]EMCMOT servo_period_nsec=[EMCMOT]SERVO_PERIOD num_joints=[TRAJ]AXES loadrt probe_parport loadrt hostmot2 loadrt hm2_pci config=" num_encoders=6 num_pwmgens=0 num_3pwmgens=0 num_stepgens=0 sserial_port_0=000xxxxx " setp hm2_5i25.0.watchdog.timeout_ns 1000000
[22:43:40] <andypugh> Use pastebin.com
[22:43:54] <Mark___> how
[22:44:20] <andypugh> Go to www.pastebin.com and paste it into the entry window
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[22:45:06] <andypugh> Then give is the link it offers you
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[22:46:35] <Mark___> http://pastebin.com/Hw8DmBED
[22:47:34] <tjtr33> Tom_itx, kfoltman_ thx! off now to Broken Arrow OK :)
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[22:47:39] <Mark___> Is that it
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[22:48:00] <andypugh> Yes, that worked
[22:48:06] <Mark___> ok
[22:48:58] <andypugh> 247 needs to be changed to pid.spindle.output (I thought we already did that?)
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[22:52:19] <Mark___> Debug file information: Brother_TC-211.hal:247: 'net' requires at least one pin, none given 6125 PID TTY STAT TIME COMMAND Stopping realtime threads Unloading hal components
[22:52:59] <Mark___> I looked up some pics of the 1921 Ner-a-Car Model A. Neat looking bike
[22:53:03] <andypugh> Extra “n” on line 248 will bite next
[22:53:14] <Mark___> already got it
[22:53:47] <andypugh> 247 should be (probbaly) net spindle-orient-cmd pid.spindle.output sum2.0.in1
[22:54:38] <Mark___> ok working
[22:55:10] <Mark___> homing right now.... I have to speed these up :)
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[22:58:12] <andypugh> That’s annoying :-)
[22:58:15] <Mark___> Sorry for the caps
[22:58:57] <andypugh> is it different every time, or just the first time?
[22:59:51] <andypugh> One probable cause is the the orient.0.scale is wrong, I wasn’t clear if your encoder was 1024 slots or 1024 counts.
[23:00:04] <Mark___> every time it is different
[23:00:19] <Mark___> 1024 ppr
[23:00:41] <Mark___> thats what I got from the book
[23:00:42] <andypugh> Ah, in fact, orient doesn’t have a scale
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[23:02:00] <andypugh> But the encoder.03.scale needs to be set so that encoder.03.position increases by 1.00000 for each revolution. Can you check that? (power off the spindle and use halmeter)
[23:03:09] <Mark___> what am I looking for in the hal meter
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[23:05:31] <andypugh> hm2_5i25.0.encoder.03.position (in “pins”)
[23:05:49] <Mark___> spindle orient pos is at 1895.5
[23:06:08] <andypugh> If you manually turn the spindle through a full turn it should increase by exactly 1
[23:08:22] <Mark___> looks like it moves 1
[23:08:42] <Mark___> spindle doesn't go into a free mode
[23:08:53] <Mark___> it still has some tension
[23:08:57] <andypugh> That’s a good start, but means that isn’t the answer
[23:09:41] <andypugh> Just to be sure, can you turn it 10 times and check you get 10?
[23:09:51] <Mark___> also spindle speed looks off now
[23:10:19] <Mark___> speed wont change
[23:11:18] <Mark___> i HAVE 1 SPINDLE SPEED NOW
[23:11:34] <Mark___> Opps sorry I have 1 spindle speed now
[23:11:56] <andypugh> If tool-changed isn’t set then the orient pid will do crazy things
[23:12:12] <Mark___> and when I use an m5 to stop the spindle it is almost in a locked state.
[23:12:50] <andypugh> in halmeter, what is your current state of orient.0.enable?
[23:14:19] <Mark___> false
[23:14:36] <andypugh> Well that _is_ odd. :-)
[23:14:55] <Mark___> I use to have them all
[23:15:18] <Mark___> maybe they went on holiday and left 1 speed to watch the shop while we mucked around
[23:15:20] <andypugh> sum2.0.in1 ?
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[23:17:47] <Mark___> That is what I have in line 247
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[23:18:15] <andypugh> I mean, what does halmeter show as the value of that pin?
[23:18:56] <Mark___> 1 sec restarted linux
[23:19:28] <andypugh> When you say you only have one speed, what exactly do you mean?
[23:20:16] <Mark___> 0 for sum.2.0.in1
[23:20:53] <Mark___> when I put in different s commands it only goes to 1 speed. About 4k if I had to guess
[23:21:09] <andypugh> That is as it should be outside a tool change, so your normal spindle control should be unaffected
[23:21:33] <andypugh> if you look at sum2.0.out as yoiu change speed, does that vary?
[23:22:33] <andypugh> (halmeter is a great tool, but if you want to watch multiple pins there are other tools that I am still hoping we won’t need)
[23:22:59] <Mark___> no change
[23:23:12] <Mark___> it stays at 0
[23:24:13] <andypugh> Now that _is_ odd. Let me pore over the HAL
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[23:25:07] <andypugh> Does motion.spindle-speed-out change?
[23:25:30] <Mark___> in the hal.ini my computed encoder scale was 20480
[23:25:49] <andypugh> Ah
[23:26:19] <Mark___> yes it does. matches what I type
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[23:27:32] <andypugh> And sum2.0.in0 should be the same number?
[23:28:04] <Mark___> No it stays at 0
[23:30:40] <andypugh> <puzzled> we have net spindle-vel-cmd => sum2.0.in0 and then net spindle-vel-cmd <= motion.spindle-speed-out so those two pins and the signal should all have the same value
[23:31:10] <andypugh> Can you check? (two pins, one signal)
[23:32:19] <Mark___> net spindle-vel-cmd => sum2.0.in0
[23:32:59] <andypugh> I meant, can you check the values all match (with a non-zero spindle speed)
[23:33:00] <Mark___> no net-spindle-vel-cmd
[23:34:12] <Mark___> added the line and got an error
[23:34:19] <andypugh> (net is a command, though you could have it in a signal name to really confuse the future-you)
[23:35:09] <andypugh> No, I wasn’t suggesting any changes, I was quoting existing HAL lines.
[23:36:50] <andypugh> Time to reset, maybe. Can you re-pastebin your current HAL?
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[23:38:36] <Mark___> which 2 pins would you like checked
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[23:39:36] <andypugh> sum2.0.in0 and motion.spindle-speed-out
[23:40:14] <andypugh> They should both math the signal spindle-vel-cmd
[23:40:53] <Mark___> they match each other
[23:42:03] <andypugh> But you just said that sum2.0.in0 was zero and didn’t change with spindle speed?
[23:42:34] <Mark___> sum2.0.in1 was zero
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[23:43:39] <Mark___> sorry about that
[23:43:55] <andypugh> If sum2.0.in1 is zero (as it should be outside of a toolchange) then motion.spindle-speed-out, sum2.0.in0 and sum2.0.out should all have the same value, which should drive the spindle.
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[23:45:11] <Mark___> correct they all do
[23:45:28] <Mark___> not the right speed, just the same speed
[23:45:43] <andypugh> And you should see the same value on hm2_5i25.0.7i77.0.1.analogout03 ?
[23:46:11] <andypugh> And that _should_ be exactlay as it used to be
[23:47:57] <Mark___> correct
[23:48:06] <Mark___> all the same
[23:48:21] <andypugh> So, the analogout3 chnges, but the spindle speed doesn’t?
[23:48:30] <Mark___> correct
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[23:48:45] <andypugh> That’s nothing I touched…
[23:49:33] <Mark___> ok found something
[23:49:46] <Mark___> the spindle is scaled from 1 to 10
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[23:49:47] <andypugh> You should see motion.spindle-speed-out == hm2_5i25.0.7i77.0.1.analogout3
[23:51:13] <andypugh> Is 4000 rpm slow or fast for your spindle? I can only dream of 4000 rpm with my spindle, one of my gears is 45 rpm!)
[23:51:16] <Mark___> I have the speed control all messed up now
[23:51:30] <Mark___> top speed is 6k
[23:51:47] <Mark___> right now have about 20 rpm at s.1
[23:52:08] <Mark___> maybe 10 rpm
[23:52:23] <andypugh> That may be normal
[23:52:48] <andypugh> The spindle is unlikely to be linear that low down
[23:53:18] <Mark___> looks like s.01 is 10 rpm
[23:53:20] <andypugh> Is S2 twice as fast?
[23:54:01] <Mark___> s.02 is twenty rpm
[23:54:17] <Mark___> looks like it got scaled back
[23:54:48] <andypugh> I don’t _think_ any of that got changd
[23:55:04] <andypugh> Unless you have a mystery custom.hal file
[23:56:04] <Mark___> just some notes with # before them
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[23:57:44] <Mark___> any way to but a multiple of divide in the hal
[23:58:24] <Mark___> spindle speed=spindle speed*.001
[23:58:36] <Mark___> or something like that