#linuxcnc | Logs for 2014-04-30

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[00:28:44] <ChuangTzu> Jymmm: nice
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[00:30:49] <tjtr33> Who was using Linuxcnc to make long tapered sections for Fly Rods?
[00:30:49] <tjtr33> http://www.tcdc.or.th/src/18073/herobike
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[00:35:36] <tjtr33> haha I found that project in KrungThep but its from Greensboro N.C. apparently using local bamboo (in NC!)
[00:35:51] <Jymmm> ChuangTzu: I just soaked a carboy for ~4 hours, smells *MUCH* better now, but still getting rid of the suds from the dishsoap I originally used =)
[00:36:29] <Jymmm> ChuangTzu: NEVER use dishsoap to clean a container... m'kay!!! lol
[00:36:44] <ChuangTzu> yeah
[00:36:45] <ChuangTzu> lol
[00:36:57] <ChuangTzu> that's why i recommended the no rinse stuff :)
[00:37:09] <Jymmm> oh NOW he tells me..
[00:38:02] <Jymmm> I'm going to ghetto together a washing machine to recirculate water into the carboy and drain into a tub
[00:38:33] <XXCoder> you ne whos refabishing a cnc mill with new pump system?
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[00:40:18] <Jymmm> ChuangTzu: Weird though, a lot of white "stuff" like broken up labels that got wet came out. not sure whats up with that.
[00:40:28] <ChuangTzu> hmm
[00:40:30] <ChuangTzu> dunno
[00:40:45] <Jymmm> aliens slim
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[00:50:37] <Jymmm> ChuangTzu: Solar water fountain pump + 32 gal trashcan PROFIT
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[00:54:40] <mutley_> mmm guten tag
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[00:55:15] <mutley_> ok so i might get shot for asking this in here, anyone use cnc usb here?
[00:55:19] <mutley_> :)
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[00:56:45] <mutley_> otherwise if not, it seems i have to "fine tune" some steps per unit on this cnc machine ive got here, now the thing is ive been "told" that the steps per unit for these ball screws is X and that value has been entered into the steps per unit in the software
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[00:57:17] <mutley_> however, upon making a 100mm move, im travelling 99.9mm so im losing 0.1mm over 100mm
[00:58:11] <mutley_> so my quesiton is, in fine tuning steps per unit, is it "normal" for there to be a very slight deviation from the book spec compared to the real world actuality
[00:59:53] <mutley_> the value for X that i have been given is 1280 steps per mm, but ive actually had to tune this to 1281 on one axis, and 1281.8 on the other, this includes taking measurements to check levels of backlash and so forth, all dont with a block and large digi calipers
[01:00:20] <mutley_> just wondering if anyone had any thoughts on this
[01:00:51] <MrHindsight> cnc usb?
[01:00:59] <mutley_> yes using cnc usb
[01:01:09] <mutley_> or is that a in in here
[01:01:14] <mutley_> *sinn
[01:01:16] <mutley_> duh
[01:01:18] <mutley_> sin
[01:01:27] <MrHindsight> Linuxcnc on a usb stick or try to control real time hardware over USB?
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[01:02:20] <mutley_> MrHindsight: huh?
[01:02:45] <mutley_> usb as good as any for realtime hardware control is it not? better than PPort
[01:02:47] <MrHindsight> can you define cnc usb? I'm not sure what you mean by that
[01:02:52] <mutley_> ahhh
[01:02:55] <mutley_> CNC-USB
[01:03:15] <mutley_> sorry my bad, the software and hardware is CNC-USB that is the name of it
[01:03:58] <MrHindsight> http://www.edingcnc.com/index.php?pagina=130_download_v4.01&taalid=1
[01:04:01] <mutley_> but in all honesty im more interested in the variance away from the book spec oof a ballscrew rather than anything to do with a particular type of software,
[01:04:18] <MrHindsight> it's all Linuxcnc in here
[01:04:42] <mozmck> probably http://www.planet-cnc.com/
[01:04:48] <MrHindsight> do you have lots of backlash?
[01:05:30] <mutley_> planet-cnc.com
[01:05:53] <mozmck> USB is one of the worst for any kind of realtime control. I would go with a hand crank before USB for that.
[01:06:12] <MrHindsight> mutley_: do you have lots of backlash in your system?
[01:06:51] <mutley_> very little backlash, iirc its around 0.2 in the ball nuts
[01:07:03] <mutley_> however i know what your thinking
[01:07:08] <MrHindsight> 0.2mm?
[01:07:30] <mutley_> but ive accounted for that, ie ive moved the axis in the right direction to take out the backlash and moved in the same direction for measuring
[01:07:58] <mutley_> sorry what am i saying, 0.02-0.03 ish
[01:08:12] <mutley_> or is it 0.2, i cant recall now, dog tired ;p
[01:08:25] <mutley_> its a direct drive ball screw setuo
[01:08:29] <mutley_> setup
[01:08:52] <mutley_> mozmck: so what do you use then?
[01:09:24] <mutley_> my issue was ovality when cutting circles,
[01:09:51] <mutley_> i didnt buold or setup this machine, i just ut it back together when i got it here after collecting from seller
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[01:10:53] <mutley_> a few bolt holes etc werent drilled straight, a few issues, got all sorted now accept this last niggle of ovality, on a 53mm diameter circle im getting about 0.3 ovality at 45 degress between the x and y directions
[01:11:02] <MrHindsight> where is all the play coming from the ballscrew nut or the bearings?
[01:11:02] <malcom2073> that planet-cnc stuff looks really cool
[01:11:26] <mutley_> the "init" speed which im assuming was the equivalent of jerk, was set to 10, so i turned down to 1
[01:11:51] <mutley_> and the accel was high too so thats been trned down
[01:12:03] <mutley_> hey malcom2073
[01:12:28] <mutley_> MrHindsight: its in the ballscrew nut i think,
[01:12:43] <mutley_> ive added the backlash figre into the software now though
[01:13:17] <malcom2073> Heya mutley_ :)
[01:13:53] <mutley_> ive got init speed set to 1 and accel set to 10, to me these seem safe numbers....would that be a correct assumption?
[01:13:54] <mozmck> I think the planet-cnc stuff is not doing anything realtime through usb. The realtime stuff (motion) is all done on board, and the USB link is for updating the GUI on a PC.
[01:14:29] <mutley_> aha that makes sense mozmck
[01:14:47] <mozmck> I use a file and hand crank drill :)
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[01:15:08] <mutley_> lol
[01:15:13] <mutley_> well heres my little beastie
[01:15:14] <mutley_> http://imgur.com/b01ijTV
[01:15:46] <mutley_> im very pleased with it, biut its been doing this oval thing since ive had it, and now ive just about had it with it so time to get it sorted
[01:15:49] <malcom2073> Yowch that planet-cnc is expensive. I think I'll stick with linuxcnc and beaglebone black heh
[01:15:52] <mozmck> There are some USB motion boards like the Smoothstepper, but the USB has caused plenty of problems. Ethernet is a lot better it seems.
[01:15:58] <MrHindsight> http://www.planet-cnc.com/index.php?page=diy PIC Micro based
[01:16:33] <mutley_> ive heard ethernet is good, the planetcnc stuff simply came with the machine,
[01:16:55] <MrHindsight> you can get real time over ethernet
[01:17:18] <MrHindsight> it's fast and deterministic
[01:17:25] <mutley_> id be prepared to change if it was worthwhile, but i dont think the software is the cause of ovality, it was the travel distances, and it was consistent too, 0.3mm lost over 300mm of travel
[01:17:29] <PetefromTn> Evening folks.
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[01:18:29] <XXCoder> mutley_: nice cnc!
[01:18:30] <mutley_> so going back to the original question (which might have got lost in the wood for trees) is it common for a ballscrew to need that kind of "fine"tuning
[01:18:34] <XXCoder> too bad about that oval thing
[01:18:37] <mutley_> XXCoder: thank you,
[01:18:42] <mutley_> yea its a pig
[01:19:03] <mutley_> hence my questions in here, i think ove got it sorted today, but wont tell until the morning when i run the machine again
[01:19:12] <MrHindsight> mutley_: not if it's in good shape, sounds like it's time to replace it
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[01:19:40] <mutley_> MrHindsight: mmmm it being??? the ballscrew?
[01:19:52] <MrHindsight> worn is worn
[01:19:52] <mutley_> and ball nut of course
[01:20:01] <mutley_> aha you think it might be worn,
[01:20:26] <XXCoder> from what I see ball screws isnt that expensive
[01:20:36] <MrHindsight> I'm just going by the amount of play you mentioned in the nut, but maybe you're just guessing
[01:20:41] <XXCoder> chinese ones anyway which means bit iffy quality
[01:20:44] <mutley_> o kwell thats something i havent considered only because its a fairly new build, less than 12 months old
[01:21:08] <MrHindsight> I get bad parts right out of the box
[01:21:26] <XXCoder> mrhind got replacement or refunds?
[01:21:35] <MrHindsight> crunchy linear bearings, radial bearings with detents
[01:21:46] <mutley_> so i didnt really think of wear being part of the cause, i was more inclined to think it was the fine tune setup if indeed such a thing was common place
[01:22:15] <mutley_> MrHindsight: nah i did measure with a large digi caliper
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[01:22:30] <MrHindsight> I don't know if your stepper controller is missing steps either
[01:22:33] <XXCoder> fine tuning and precision is almost symonous. wouldnt think there was anything precision would work fine without finetuning
[01:22:48] <mutley_> ie i moeved axis in one direction, set caliper to it and zeroed, then nudged back 0.1mm and read what the caliper was saying
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[01:23:28] <mutley_> MrHindsight: yea the guy at zapp (where most of this machine was bought) mentioned that too, so ive checked the couplings, they are tight, and then also turned down the accel and init speeds
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[01:23:41] <MrHindsight> does it come up short every time you move it? and at lower speeds?
[01:23:42] <mutley_> XXCoder: thats a fair comment
[01:24:24] <mutley_> MrHindsight: well, after i had turned down the speeds and accels, and changed the steps per unit from 1280 to 1281.8 i lost 0.01 over 300mm
[01:24:36] <XXCoder> missing steps?
[01:24:40] <XXCoder> if using steppers
[01:24:56] <mutley_> in the software also nothing had been entered into the backlash boxes, so i added that in too
[01:25:07] <MrHindsight> it's easy to miss with hand crank
[01:25:31] <mutley_> no hand crannk here
[01:25:56] <mutley_> or you mean when nudging in the software == hand crank
[01:26:01] <MrHindsight> mutley_: try the livecd with LPT
[01:26:06] <mutley_> nudging/jogging
[01:26:35] <mutley_> MrHindsight: never heard of that, dont even know what you mean
[01:26:44] <mutley_> LPT printer port ?
[01:26:50] <MrHindsight> I was referring back to mozmck's comment about the hand crank
[01:27:00] <MrHindsight> LPT = parallel port
[01:27:03] <mozmck> :)
[01:27:18] <mutley_> ok ok well i missed that if it was a joke,
[01:27:19] <MrHindsight> what are you using for stepper drivers?
[01:27:43] <mutley_> stepper drivers are Leadshine DM442
[01:28:03] <mutley_> this controller wont connect to a lpt port
[01:28:08] <mutley_> only usb
[01:28:24] <mozmck> good idea to hook it up with linuxcnc - might eliminate the software as a problem. Or on the other hand it might create a whole 'nuther set of problems...
[01:28:45] <mutley_> mozmck: ahh im with ya now
[01:28:50] <MrHindsight> http://www.leadshine.com/productdetail.aspx?type=products&category=stepper-products&producttype=stepper-drives&series=DM&model=DM442
[01:29:03] <mutley_> yea elimination is the way of diagnostics
[01:29:16] <mozmck> I think that's what MrHindsight was suggesting
[01:29:19] <MrHindsight> the PI connector has STEP and DIRECTION
[01:29:32] <zeeshan> http://imgur.com/s33bP02
[01:29:32] <MrHindsight> P1
[01:29:33] <mozmck> he would need a breakout board
[01:29:36] <zeeshan> 3d printed turbo
[01:30:27] <XXCoder> zeeshan: would it be strong enough
[01:30:35] <zeeshan> theyre using em on production cars
[01:30:39] <mutley_> mozmck: MrHindsight yea thats the one
[01:30:40] <zeeshan> so yea i'd say so :P
[01:30:45] <XXCoder> lol ok
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[01:31:59] <mutley_> mmm ok so in all honesty i think you guys have given me some things to think about which was the purpose of my questions
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[01:32:49] <mutley_> as i mentioned, i have made some tweaks and adjustment following my own initiative and will find out in the morning if they have worked for sure, i know i have got much more accurate travel now though so maybe i have fixed it
[01:33:24] <MrHindsight> direct drive 200 step per rev motor?
[01:34:00] <MrHindsight> and you're microstepping?
[01:34:12] <MrHindsight> with what ballscrew pitch?
[01:34:47] <MrHindsight> you might be microstepping so much that you have no torque left
[01:34:51] <mutley_> however...:)
[01:35:13] <mutley_> the pointers you guys have thrown up in response are very interesting
[01:35:16] <mutley_> the motor is
[01:36:04] <mutley_> SY608TH86 - 300 bbf
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[01:37:44] <mutley_> looks like a 5mm pitch ballscrew
[01:37:54] <mutley_> ie just measured 5.2 with digi calipers
[01:38:13] <mutley_> so im taking 0.2 as shaky hand error
[01:38:26] <mutley_> or bad eyes, or combination of both
[01:38:39] <XXCoder> or bad screw lol
[01:38:48] <mutley_> or bad screw lol
[01:38:54] <mutley_> heh
[01:39:11] <zeeshan> i wanna drill a 40mm hole on the milling machine
[01:39:19] <zeeshan> my drill bit has a mt3 or mt2 shank on it
[01:39:26] <zeeshan> is there some sort of r8 to mt adapter?
[01:39:58] <zeeshan> hm google shows a few
[01:39:59] <zeeshan> :P
[01:40:12] <XXCoder> google is good. google is god.
[01:40:13] <mutley_> i must confess i did think that 1280 steps pr unit was a heck of a lot
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[01:40:54] <mutley_> so the theory suggests im doing 5*1280steps per revolution...?
[01:41:41] <mutley_> 6040 steps per rev
[01:41:49] <mutley_> no 6400
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[01:47:01] <mutley_> ahh its a SY60STH stepper
[01:48:10] <mutley_> mm ok so yes it is a 200 step per rev motor,
[01:48:21] <XXCoder> so its 1.8 degree
[01:48:31] <mutley_> yes
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[01:49:35] <mutley_> so single stepping 200 steps == 5mm therefore 200/5 == single steps per mm
[01:50:00] <mutley_> 40
[01:50:40] <mutley_> so it must be running at 1/32 micro stepping
[01:51:10] <mutley_> do i really need such fine stepping on this
[01:51:26] <XXCoder> try cut finesteps
[01:51:28] <XXCoder> see what happens
[01:51:38] <XXCoder> *microsteps
[01:52:04] <mutley_> mmm yea might look at that too, 1/16 or 1/8
[01:52:22] <mutley_> so maybe possibly it is a missed step in the accel phase
[01:52:30] <XXCoder> it might make missed steps more olvious I guess
[01:54:09] <MrHindsight> I'd go with 4 steps max
[01:54:22] <MrHindsight> 1/4
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[01:54:32] <XXCoder> for debugging better set to zero microstep?
[01:54:48] <MrHindsight> 5mm / 200 / 4 = 6.35um
[01:54:59] <MrHindsight> per step
[01:55:29] <MrHindsight> 1/2 will have 775 of the torque
[01:56:02] <mutley_> well that all makes sense having it laid out like that
[01:56:15] <MrHindsight> sorry ~ 70% of the full torque http://www.micromo.com/microstepping-myths-and-realities.aspx
[01:56:37] <MrHindsight> 1/32 leaves with <5%
[01:56:53] <mutley_> it seems this machine has been setup in completely the wrong manner
[01:57:03] <MrHindsight> so you've mostly likely have been missing steps and have lash
[01:57:43] <mutley_> i think id tend to agree
[01:57:50] <MrHindsight> heh probably figured it was nice to have 781nm per step :) NOT
[01:57:51] <mutley_> MrHindsight: ^^
[01:58:31] <mutley_> mmm
[01:58:56] <MrHindsight> http://www.designnews.com/document.asp?doc_id=221386
[01:58:58] <mutley_> ok so thats more like barking up the right tree
[01:59:37] <mutley_> so given ive got a job to cut on the machine in the morning, do i look at these steps now at 02:59
[01:59:53] <MrHindsight> who needs sleep?
[02:00:06] <mutley_> lol tell me about it
[02:00:11] <mutley_> just meds
[02:00:14] <accuartisans> sleep is over rated:)
[02:00:31] <XXCoder> 1/64 microstepping??
[02:00:49] <mutley_> no its 1/32
[02:00:54] <XXCoder> 0.39um
[02:01:03] <XXCoder> I know. I was reading that article
[02:01:11] <mutley_> ahhh
[02:01:36] <XXCoder> I wonder whats smallest nema23 step angle
[02:01:43] <jdh> I run 25k steps on my parker drives
[02:01:46] <XXCoder> or largest # of steps per rotate
[02:02:05] <XXCoder> (full step only)
[02:02:28] <MrHindsight> I mostly use servos :)
[02:02:58] <XXCoder> http://www.omc-stepperonline.com/9deg-nema-23-bipolar-121v-038a-09nm1275ozin-23hm200384s-p-24.html?zenid=5f914c10d13e82941f0caaec3848b715 0.9 step angle. 400 steps
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[02:06:36] <XXCoder> quick, someone invent 0.1 degree angle, 3600 step motor
[02:06:39] <MrHindsight> 6.375 oz in of torque at 1/32
[02:07:28] <MrHindsight> 0.1 deg 3m diameter, no problem
[02:07:50] <XXCoder> lol I guess due to nesscary windings or something
[02:08:53] <MrHindsight> http://www.orientalmotor.com/products/stepper-motors/stepper-motor-only-0-36.html
[02:09:11] <MrHindsight> 1000 steps per revolution
[02:09:17] <XXCoder> danh
[02:09:40] <mutley_> right kettles on
[02:09:57] <XXCoder> with his setup 5mm / 1000 / 4
[02:10:18] <XXCoder> 0.125um
[02:10:23] <mutley_> generally ive only heard of 0.9 and 1.8 degree stepppers
[02:10:25] <XXCoder> er 1.25um I think
[02:11:30] <mutley_> going to go through the data sheet and see what the DIP switch settings are for 1/4 stepping
[02:13:09] <MrHindsight> http://catalog.orientalmotor.com/item/stepping-motors--1068/pk-series-5-phase-stepping-motors/pk566pmb?&plpver=11&origin=keyword&by=prod&filter=0
[02:13:26] <XXCoder> 90 bucks each ouch
[02:13:42] <XXCoder> worth it if needed I guess
[02:13:43] <MrHindsight> lower cost than servo
[02:13:45] <XXCoder> wha
[02:14:10] <XXCoder> oh 0.36 angle lol thought site said 0.036 anglke
[02:14:18] <XXCoder> it would be insanely accurate
[02:14:44] <MrHindsight> http://catalog.orientalmotor.com/browser?&plpver=11&prodid=3001062&itemid=18021&assetid=51626
[02:14:48] <malcom2073> If you need high accuracy and high torque, why not go harmonic drive, or gear it down?
[02:14:56] <malcom2073> You can getcheap used harmonic drives off ebay for $20-$50
[02:15:16] <XXCoder> I dont need such accuracy, was just curious how fine steppers went to.,
[02:15:22] <malcom2073> Ah ok
[02:15:22] <MrHindsight> torque drops off over 140rpm
[02:15:49] <mutley_> ok so if i go down to 1/4 stepping
[02:16:16] <mutley_> ill have 800 steps per mm
[02:16:22] <mutley_> no thats not right
[02:16:35] <MrHindsight> 800 steps per 5mm
[02:16:39] <XXCoder> 5mm / 200 / 4
[02:16:49] <XXCoder> 200 * 4 steps
[02:16:59] * skunkworks_ hugs his parker drives
[02:17:14] <mutley_> ahh 800 steps per rev 800 / 5 / 4
[02:17:17] <MrHindsight> or 4 * 200 steps, either way :)
[02:17:55] <MrHindsight> 5um per step
[02:18:23] <MrHindsight> sorry 6.25um per step
[02:18:25] <XXCoder> heh I hope for 0.05mm accuracy with my cnc
[02:18:45] <XXCoder> bit rough but enough to have fun and learn
[02:19:01] <mutley_> xxcoder your calc is wrong i think
[02:19:23] * mutley_ injects more coffee
[02:19:29] <XXCoder> which one?
[02:19:35] <mutley_> nescafe
[02:19:38] <mutley_> ;p
[02:19:43] <XXCoder> mrhind was last to say numbers heh
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[02:19:51] <mutley_> your 5mm/200/4
[02:20:13] <skunkworks_> has anyone mentioned the steppers really are only accurate to about 1/2 step if that...
[02:20:17] <MrHindsight> 5mm per rev / 200 full steps / 4 micro
[02:20:40] <mutley_> ok im doing 800 steps per rev / 5mm pitch / 1/4 stepping is that correct?
[02:20:44] <XXCoder> skunk I probably would try 1/4 steps see if any better lol
[02:20:52] <mutley_> ie 800/5/4
[02:20:57] <mutley_> == 40
[02:20:59] <MrHindsight> skunkworks_: they are just learning about them
[02:21:05] <skunkworks_> ok
[02:21:33] <MrHindsight> looks like somebody was losing steps at 1/32
[02:21:44] <mutley_> i dont want high steps i want a machine with integrity
[02:21:48] <mutley_> :)
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[02:22:22] <XXCoder> yeah no more ovals lol
[02:22:26] <mutley_> popped in here for some friendly experiential aadvice seeing as i had heard so many bad things about you lot
[02:22:29] <mutley_> ;p
[02:22:39] <MrHindsight> heh, yeah avoid reprap
[02:22:41] <XXCoder> unless its one you really want lol
[02:22:48] <mutley_> only god knows why i didnt come in here before
[02:23:07] <mutley_> lol reprap whats that ;p
[02:23:18] <XXCoder> junk.
[02:23:38] <mutley_> lol so your quite a militant bunch in here then
[02:23:40] <XXCoder> dont get me wrong it could be fun but really
[02:23:42] <MrHindsight> reprap is a right wing conspiracy to further subvert facts and science
[02:23:48] <mutley_> lol
[02:23:56] <XXCoder> dunno. I dont think I own "quite"
[02:24:08] <XXCoder> lol hind
[02:24:22] <mutley_> well in my spread of interests and activities the reprap thing has helped me out a lot
[02:24:43] <mutley_> and then i invent a few things so being able to make things without moulds its just breathtaking tbh
[02:25:36] <XXCoder> If I ever upgrade my cnc electric system from crappy controller I would make 3d printer with it and old framework
[02:26:15] <mutley_> i like py printers because i can run them all day and night without disturbing neighbours
[02:26:19] <mutley_> *my
[02:26:37] <mutley_> but i like the CNC more if im honest because it makes so much noise ;p
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[02:27:10] <mutley_> but also lots of good things on it aswell, im pretty good in Rhino so it lends well to both
[02:27:11] <MrHindsight> my neighbors never complain about the cnc machine tools, it's generally just the loud parties and drag racing
[02:27:18] <mutley_> lol
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[02:27:41] <mutley_> i live where the birdsong is loud
[02:27:47] <MrHindsight> if they weren't invited
[02:28:00] <XXCoder> build a silence room
[02:28:30] <mutley_> ad poout the neighbours in it
[02:29:14] <XXCoder> hmm would covering cnc while its running make it quieter? I'm far from expert with noises.,
[02:29:26] <mutley_> a silence room 6x2x2
[02:29:48] <mutley_> nah not really, its very heavy and it goes through the floor and walls
[02:30:17] <XXCoder> mut I read article of using hockey pucks as vibration seperator
[02:30:22] <mutley_> i have been thinking about sound though, it seems rubber feet and moving away from adjoining wall and blocking uo a fireplace would make a big difference
[02:30:26] <XXCoder> means floor dont get vibration from cnc and other way too
[02:30:39] <mutley_> ahh yea those are solid hard rubber
[02:30:58] <XXCoder> I probably will use it too
[02:30:59] <mutley_> in fact i used to be a defenceman for richmond piwis long long ago
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[02:31:26] <mutley_> ive actualy got some hard rubber covers from this www.turnsafe.com knocking about
[02:31:29] <XXCoder> be back in a bit
[02:31:42] <mutley_> xxcoder laters an thx for your help
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[02:54:00] <sabotender> hmm where is...whats his name
[02:54:18] <sabotender> I wanted to comment on the craptastic link he sent me the other day
[02:54:27] <jdh> could be anyone
[02:56:38] <sabotender> this: http://tinyurl.com/ldonrca
[02:56:38] <sabotender> <-- (craptastic cnc router) Doesn't compare to this: http://tinyurl.com/amde7y8 <-- (Which may be a clone, but is a superiour clone)
[02:56:48] * sabotender waves at jdh
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[02:57:21] <sabotender> not to mention that the spindle is a much higher quality
[02:57:53] <jdh> if you say so.
[02:58:33] <sabotender> but I do say so
[02:59:05] <jdh> ok!
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[02:59:58] <sabotender> you do not agree?
[03:00:14] <jdh> I really have no opinion.
[03:00:32] <jdh> I just pointed out that it looked like a sable clone. Lukechan has been selling those for years
[03:01:08] <sabotender> was it you who mentioned that?
[03:01:11] <jdh> from the pictures, I woudl say that his spindle is superior.
[03:01:20] <sabotender> I could have sworn it was a-something
[03:01:27] * sabotender has a poor memory
[03:01:39] <jdh> I posted the ebay link with the router only, andypugh posted the version with spindle/etc
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[03:02:43] <sabotender> ah I did not see your posting
[03:03:27] <sabotender> the panther seems to be built sturdier as well
[03:03:58] <sabotender> which cnc mill/router do you own?
[03:04:21] <jdh> I would wonder why you thought the kress clone dremel thing is superior to the other spindle though.
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[03:05:10] <sabotender> you are saying that the tiny spindle on the ebay link is better than the panther spindle?
[03:05:52] <jdh> no way to say from the pics, but I would assume the ebay one has at least two bearings that are replaceable.
[03:06:01] <jdh> no way to tell what is in teh plastic housing
[03:06:57] <sabotender> that 'dremel thing' appears to have more torque or whatever you call it, based on the videos that ive seen of it in action
[03:07:06] <jdh> I take that back... the panther one is junk.
[03:07:44] <sabotender> okay, what are your reasons?
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[03:08:11] <jdh> the chuck is junk.
[03:08:15] <jdh> or junk
[03:08:20] <jdh> or junk
[03:08:49] <sabotender> huh
[03:08:55] <sabotender> What is wrong with the chuck
[03:09:52] <jdh> it's a jacobs chuck on some unknown motor that might have bearings.
[03:10:42] <sabotender> and jacobs chucks are bad?
[03:11:01] <jdh> they are fine for holding a drill bit in your hand drill
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[03:14:07] <sabotender> oh I thought you were going to elabourate. Why are jacobs chucks bad for this particular application?
[03:14:50] <jdh> it's not really up for debate.
[03:15:23] <sabotender> fascinating
[03:15:31] <jdh> not really.
[03:16:10] <jdh> http://tinyurl.com/mjkaglm
[03:16:20] <sabotender> oh I am genuinely interested. I will ask other individuals for their opinion about the matter
[03:16:32] <jdh> excellent idea.
[03:18:06] <sabotender> hmm
[03:18:21] <jdh> I am far from an expert on things CNC and machining.
[03:18:38] <sabotender> ah I see
[03:18:54] <jdh> but, I'll stick with my junk call on that spindle.
[03:19:36] <sabotender> I just assumed that you had an informed reason on your stated opinion. Please forgive me if I was incorrect.
[03:19:49] <jdh> I do, but it's not worth going in to.
[03:21:42] <sabotender> interesting.
[03:21:46] <jdh> not really.
[03:22:24] <jdh> there is nothing interesting at all about discussing end mills in jacobs chucks.
[03:22:36] <sabotender> Oh I assure you it is, but I have better things to do than to attempt to get information from you, so....bbl
[03:22:54] <jdh> like, research it yourself?
[03:23:41] <jdh> but, I understand the attraction. Even though I know it is an incredibly bad idea, I've done it a time or two.
[03:24:03] <cradek> this is very dysfunctional
[03:24:11] <jdh> yeah, it's late.
[03:24:14] <jdh> for me.
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[03:24:44] <jdh> I could point you to 10 other places saying jacobs chucks suck for milling, but they are easy enough to find.
[03:25:13] <cradek> in addition to usually having poor runout, most jacobs chucks are mounted by a taper, which means it may not stay locked if there's side force. they really are just for drilling.
[03:25:36] <jdh> that one probably isn't a taper
[03:25:42] <cradek> it's true that you can easily find this out with a bit of googling, but it helps to know what to look for
[03:26:02] <cradek> (I didn't look at it)
[03:26:25] <jdh> http://tinyurl.com/lzrojky
[03:27:57] <cradek> hm yeah, probably not ideal for milling, but not dangerous because those tiny jacobses are mounted by a thread and I doubt the spindle reverses
[03:28:21] <jdh> just runout and slippage
[03:28:23] <cradek> that spindle is probably much better than a dremel
[03:28:36] <jdh> might even have a bearing housing in the metal part
[03:28:37] <cradek> (a very low bar)
[03:29:04] <cradek> yeah but I agree the jacobs is a fairly bad sign
[03:29:05] * cradek shrugs
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[03:29:48] <jdh> http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3754/9357480386_b4738d5752_c.jpg
[03:30:14] <jdh> that one might also suck, but for different reasons. It at least has an ER11 collet which gives it a better chance at less suckage
[03:30:19] <cradek> looks like ER
[03:30:58] <cradek> yep
[03:31:43] <cradek> the adjustable Z offset is a bit more clever than usual
[03:32:07] <cradek> using the stepper motor bearings for thrust is a bit less clever than usual
[03:32:23] <jdh> so, I was drilling some holes in 6061 last week with my mill. I needed to straighten some edges on the side and went ahead and stuck a cheap 1/2" endmill in the jacobs chuck.
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[03:32:34] <jdh> even though I knew better
[03:32:38] <cradek> eek
[03:32:45] <cradek> you should've known better :-)
[03:33:00] <jdh> I caught it before it hit the ground and didn't even hurt myself.
[03:37:50] <jdh> I made part of it out of crap Home Depot aluminum angle. That stuff doesn't cut so much as it just tears apart.
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[05:27:56] <witnit> Im putting a bid on a 3-1/2 " ACME-Gridley tomorrow :) wish me luck
[05:28:36] <witnit> going to have to load the bars in it with a fork truck
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[06:46:31] <Deejay> moin
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[07:33:38] <zeeshan> z axis done
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[07:46:22] <archivist> how do you define "done"
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[07:51:34] <zeeshan> mechanically done
[07:51:37] <zeeshan> milled a bracket
[07:51:39] <zeeshan> mounte dit
[07:51:47] <zeeshan> moved the screw by hand and i dont feel any binding
[07:51:55] <zeeshan> measured back lash
[07:52:00] <zeeshan> don't notice any
[07:52:17] <zeeshan> gotta figure out how to do the x-axis now
[07:52:24] <zeeshan> pretty sure i'm going to have to mill the cross slide. =/
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[09:41:07] <sabotender> oh archivist! just the man I wanted to chat with!
[09:41:14] <sabotender> I have a quick question for you, please
[09:41:58] <archivist> hoooo meeee
[09:42:41] <sabotender> archivist: please look at this spindle
[09:42:42] <sabotender> http://tinyurl.com/jvnb6go
[09:43:05] <sabotender> does that spindle use a jacobs chuck?
[09:43:22] <archivist> does not look like it
[09:43:29] <zeeshan> noppe
[09:43:48] <zeeshan> why im still up
[09:43:51] <sabotender> are you SURE about this? because jdh said that it did and that it was crap
[09:43:54] <zeeshan> why am i still up!!
[09:44:03] <archivist> go to bed!
[09:44:11] <zeeshan> its almost 6am =/
[09:44:16] <sabotender> I tried to ask him why jacobs chucks were so bad, but he was a bit rude and wouldn't elabourate
[09:44:22] <archivist> still playing thats why
[09:44:55] <sabotender> apparently it has something to do with moving from side to side
[09:45:15] <sabotender> and that the bit is prone to slipping and flying off (at your person) at high rpm
[09:45:52] <sabotender> I had my heart set on getting the panther, but i dont want to if it has something as flawed as that going on
[09:47:02] <archivist> the two machines are almost identical apart from spindles, choose the right spindle for your intended work
[09:47:44] <archivist> the sable has the better spindle for milling probably, the panther for wood routing
[09:48:23] <sabotender> right, and if you remember, I wanted to mostly use it for milling pcbs but I also had plans for some LIGHT aluminium work
[09:48:42] <sabotender> milling/routing
[09:49:18] <archivist> pcb requires a good spindle with little run out
[09:49:32] <sabotender> the panther has tighter...what is the word? tolerance? finer accuracy?
[09:50:10] <sabotender> high repeatability? I don't know what the proper word for it is
[09:50:53] <archivist> I wonder which of the two is telling the smallest lie
[09:51:08] * sabotender snickers
[09:52:30] <archivist> I do not trust low cost chinese specifications
[09:52:33] <sabotender> archivist: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYAfNTvgTak you may have already seen that, but that work is pretty impressive
[09:53:13] <sabotender> archivist, zeeshan: but thank you very much for setting my mind at ease about the chuck style
[09:53:36] <zeeshan> =D
[09:53:47] <zeeshan> archivist: have you ever drilled a 40 mm hole using a drill bit on a mill?
[09:53:48] <zeeshan> :p
[09:54:01] <zeeshan> or larger
[09:54:38] <archivist> I usually bore at that size
[09:54:45] <zeeshan> thats what i ended up doing
[09:54:49] <zeeshan> did a 1" hole
[09:54:51] <zeeshan> then bored to 40mm
[09:55:03] <zeeshan> i just have a random 40mm drill bit ive been wanting to use!
[09:55:13] <zeeshan> not sure if a r8 taper will slip :P
[09:56:37] <zeeshan> i guess at large sizes, it makes more sense to bore
[09:56:42] <zeeshan> or just use a hole saw
[09:56:44] <zeeshan> and finish bore
[09:56:48] <sabotender> yeah, slippage scares me
[09:59:08] <archivist> boring large holes in sheet is fun
[09:59:38] <sabotender> archivist: do you think the result of that routed pcb is okay?
[09:59:40] <zeeshan> for sheet i usually back it up with wood
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[10:00:18] <archivist> sabotender, ok for what it is but the visible errors are larger than the spec :)
[10:00:35] <sabotender> what do you mean about visibe errors?
[10:01:09] <archivist> right at the end note some of the holes are not in the middle of the pads
[10:01:31] <sabotender> ah let me check
[10:01:54] <archivist> that shows the repeatability/ accuracy spec is bollocks
[10:03:35] <sabotender> is it still within acceptable limits?
[10:04:29] <archivist> also that spindle only seems to take pcb sized tooling as it is a plain hole with grub screw clamping
[10:05:53] <sabotender> eh? some of those 'tooling' were huge
[10:08:01] <archivist> 3.5mm huge?
[10:08:56] <archivist> please do not confuse close-up with huge
[10:09:05] <sabotender> for a router? I would think so. that isn't a mill ya know
[10:09:18] <sabotender> :-P
[10:09:52] <sabotender> i honestly do not think I can get anything better for the price
[10:09:57] <archivist> routers are often huge that one is tiny
[10:10:09] <sabotender> i have truly searched and searched
[10:10:10] <archivist> you can build
[10:10:16] <sabotender> i dont want to build
[10:10:42] <sabotender> as i lack the experience and I am sure that anything I build will turn up to be a crappy waste investment
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[10:11:39] <sabotender> nor do i have the tools necessary to get the job done. I have to get something within my budget and ~760 is hitting my upper limit
[10:12:01] <sabotender> I am not looking for 'best'. I am looking for 'decent'
[10:12:10] <archivist> the spindle on the sable being ER11 can be a lot better in many ways
[10:13:03] <sabotender> hmm but the stats on the sable are crappier than the claims on the panther and the table on the panther is slightly larger
[10:13:39] <Loetmichel> sabotender: your video seems to be awfully slow
[10:13:54] <Loetmichel> i do that pcb milling often on a chinese CNC 6040
[10:14:06] <Loetmichel> ... MUCH faster and likks good, also
[10:14:07] <Loetmichel> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMXxjT4nNxg
[10:14:12] <Loetmichel> looks
[10:14:19] <sabotender> archivist: all I have here are electrical engineering tools, and an electric hand drill
[10:14:31] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=14507&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
[10:15:38] <sabotender> Loetmichel: but pcb routing isn't all I want the device to do. I want to do a bit of light aluminium work too
[10:16:07] <sabotender> ...machining small parts like gears and sprokets and whatnot
[10:16:28] <Loetmichel> sabotender: you mean like this? -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnjHd69saXs
[10:16:34] <Loetmichel> ... same machine ;-)
[10:16:48] <archivist> sable looks better for aluminium
[10:17:20] <archivist> you need 4 axis for gear making
[10:17:26] <sabotender> archivist: why do you say this?
[10:17:57] <Loetmichel> archivist: you dont
[10:18:17] <archivist> because I dont like the gears I have seen done the Loetmichel way
[10:18:26] <archivist> dont
[10:18:37] <sabotender> archivist: no no, why do you say that the sable looks better for gear making
[10:19:01] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=11702
[10:19:06] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=11711
[10:19:12] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=11714
[10:19:17] <archivist> nice quiet spindle and it has er11 so you can use more tooling
[10:19:22] <Loetmichel> granted. you are restricted to plain gears
[10:19:33] <Loetmichel> no hjerringobe or tilted teeth
[10:19:39] <Loetmichel> herringbone
[10:19:52] <sabotender> archivist: would you say the build quality is on par with the panther?
[10:20:16] <sabotender> Loetmichel: I wanted to make a simple geared clock
[10:20:24] <Loetmichel> if i see it right the panthzer has normal threaded tors as drive?
[10:20:24] <archivist> the same probably ish +- 1000 %
[10:20:49] <sabotender> you know, the ones that are driven by weights and stop-gears or whatever they are called
[10:20:50] <Loetmichel> no ballthreads?
[10:21:08] <archivist> sabotender, I make clock gears
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[10:21:14] <Loetmichel> that is possible with 3 axis
[10:21:21] <sabotender> archivist: +/- 1000% ?
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[10:21:24] <Loetmichel> very possible
[10:21:28] <mutley_> morning
[10:21:30] <sabotender> 1000% is a very large number
[10:21:32] <archivist> you cannot make proper clock gears with an endmill
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[10:21:42] <MattyMatt> sable has fine threads too iirc
[10:22:05] <archivist> sabotender, because from crappy pictures one cannot see
[10:22:08] <mutley_> ok so i just need to check my accel values
[10:22:25] <mutley_> ive reduced my microstepping from 1/32 down to 1/4
[10:22:37] <MattyMatt> sable 2015 looks easy to make if you have a mill already
[10:22:42] <mutley_> i had an init (jerk) speed of 10 and accel of 15
[10:22:54] <MattyMatt> it probably won't look as pretty
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[10:23:05] <mutley_> ive turned down to 1 and 5 respectively, would these be considered appropriate or too slow?
[10:23:10] <sabotender> you can't get an idea from the videos of it in action? :-P
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[10:23:28] <sabotender> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sable-2015-CNC-ROUTER-ENGRAVER-mill-PCBs-engraving-complete-kits-/191148893869?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c815ca6ad#shpCntId
[10:23:37] <mutley_> this follows on from my earlier question as of 3am ;p
[10:23:51] <mutley_> which you guys so kindly sorted for me
[10:24:45] <MattyMatt> the air cooled chinese spindles, do they need shop air?
[10:25:55] <archivist> sabotender, when you make a clock you have to consider that the pinions are usually steel
[10:27:05] <sabotender> what? why couldn't you use aluminum? surely that is strong enough
[10:27:17] <sabotender> *aluminium
[10:27:41] <sabotender> I have seen accurate clocks made completely out of wood
[10:27:48] <archivist> http://www.collection.archivist.info/searchv13.php?searchstr=webb+clock
[10:27:56] <MattyMatt> accurate and long lasting?
[10:28:56] <sabotender> I am shrugging at long lasting. I can only assume so as there really isn't much tension between those teeth
[10:29:31] <MattyMatt> on the drive one there is. there's the full force of the spring or weights
[10:29:36] <sabotender> archivist: that is beautiful inner clockwork
[10:29:39] <archivist> the gears low in the chain have a very high force
[10:29:56] <sabotender> brass?
[10:30:13] <archivist> brass yes, type CZ120 iirc
[10:30:35] <archivist> EN8DM steel
[10:30:40] <Loetmichel> MattyMatt: no, the air cooled chinese spindles need no air. they have an internal fan
[10:30:41] <MattyMatt> make a mini EDM, and carve them out of used carbide inserts :)
[10:30:51] <MattyMatt> Loetmichel, cheers
[10:30:54] <Loetmichel> and no blocking air fpr the bearings as far as i know
[10:31:38] <MattyMatt> I'm guessing water cooled is quieter and better, but I'm worried about leaks on momma's wooden floor
[10:31:47] <mutley_> i have an Kress which is air cooled, it just has its own internal fan, and im actuallly thinking of using that redirect with a cowl to keep the bit cool
[10:31:52] <Loetmichel> MattyMatt: i would go with the water colled ones because they are quieter, though
[10:32:02] <sabotender> archivist: I have ALWAYS wanted to make my own grandfather-type clock with the spinning sun and moon and constellations
[10:32:26] <archivist> the barrel on that clock has gears internally so it can be wound up while still driving the clock
[10:32:29] <mutley_> surely any noise benefit of a water cooled spindle is negated by the noise of cutting?
[10:32:37] <mutley_> i know mine is loud as fook when cutting plastics
[10:32:50] <Loetmichel> mutley_: not necessarily
[10:32:57] <Loetmichel> depends on the stuff milled
[10:33:02] <mutley_> true
[10:33:14] <mutley_> im milling ertalyte atm, its a PET material
[10:33:19] <MattyMatt> motor noise can be high pitched and annoy the neighbours
[10:33:22] <archivist> and how rigid the machine and work is
[10:33:35] <Loetmichel> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9Ov69t0uwo
[10:33:39] <sabotender> I am still going to try to make one with aluminium gears. It might not be the best clock, but I am sure I can at least get it to work
[10:33:40] <Loetmichel> there it is milling plastics
[10:33:48] <mutley_> and how not insulted it is from the floor
[10:33:51] <mutley_> ;p
[10:34:41] <Loetmichel> ... you can still hear the steppers singing
[10:34:44] <mutley_> well im definately noticing the difference with these new settings, microsteps changed and reduced accels and speeds
[10:34:59] <sabotender> archivist: is that a cheating electrical plug that I see there :-P
[10:35:02] <mutley_> hopefully a circle will be round and not oval
[10:35:27] <sabotender> must....use....weights.....
[10:35:42] <MattyMatt> before I buy a chinese VFD&spindle, I should try one of those ER collet shafts in a pair of 4 hole flange bearings
[10:36:01] <archivist> sabotender, it is electrically wound, weight driven clock
[10:36:24] <MattyMatt> http://i.imgur.com/bq9ok.jpg like in my lathe
[10:36:38] <sabotender> okay so the sable seems to be better than the panther, so I will prolly get that one now, unless I can find one that is better for less price
[10:36:45] <sabotender> (but I doubt it)
[10:37:06] <MattyMatt> pair of pully cones, random motor, bish bosh job done
[10:37:35] <archivist> MattyMatt, you can also get er collet in a morse taper to fit a spindle like that
[10:37:43] <Loetmichel> sabotender: i would still reccomend a 6040
[10:37:46] <sabotender> archivist: ah I see. I want to make one that doesn't use a DC/AC power source
[10:38:08] <Loetmichel> its a bit bigger nd slightly miore expensive but has ballsrews and a watercooled spindle
[10:38:21] <sabotender> Loetmichel: that frame style offends me
[10:38:27] <MattyMatt> archivist yeah but that'd mean 2MT in a 25mm shaft (I have the bearings already) which seems a bit thin walled
[10:38:29] <Loetmichel> why?
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[10:38:43] <sabotender> slightly more you say?
[10:39:08] <sabotender> that thing is almost 2k usd
[10:39:15] <MattyMatt> 1MT would mean I could share chucks with my tailstock, but that seems a bit small for milling
[10:39:29] <sabotender> far outside my price range. and the bed size isn't that much of a deal to me
[10:39:35] <archivist> MattyMatt, my system is mainly 3mt both in the rotaries and in the spindle
[10:39:39] <sabotender> as I won't be using it to make large pieces
[10:39:44] <archivist> 2MT
[10:40:01] <sabotender> I want quality and better workmanship over size
[10:40:09] <archivist> sabotender, some clock parts are large :)
[10:40:26] <Loetmichel> http://www.ebay.de/itm/CNC-ROUTER-GRAVIERMASCHNIE-TERRIFIC-VALUE-MILLING-FRASMASCHINE-6040-a1-/271372041885?pt=Goldschmiedewerkzeug&hash=item3f2f08be9d
[10:40:28] <Loetmichel> is it?
[10:40:34] <sabotender> archivist: larger than 12 inches diameter?
[10:40:50] <archivist> dial
[10:41:25] <sabotender> Loetmichel: that body type is offensive. The sable/panther body type looks MUCH more firm/sturdy..what is the word you lot like to use?
[10:41:36] <Loetmichel> sabotender: wait half a year after you got the smal machine and you will notice that even the 6040 is a bit smapp
[10:41:37] <archivist> you have to choose though
[10:42:13] <Loetmichel> small
[10:42:28] <Loetmichel> and its IS a bit wak
[10:42:37] <sabotender> archivist: i am sorry. I have to choose what now?
[10:42:53] <Loetmichel> but sufficient sturdy to mill aluminium wiht tools up to 6mm and takuing a 0,2mm cut in the full
[10:42:56] <archivist> your poison(mill size)
[10:43:05] <MattyMatt> (25−(25.4×.7))÷2 =
[10:43:25] <MattyMatt> 3.61 mm walls, if I have 2mt in 25mm
[10:43:27] <Loetmichel> but the caveat on the smaller ones is that i dont know ANY that comes with ballscrews
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[10:43:40] <sabotender> the ones I linked do.
[10:43:57] <Loetmichel> and ballscrewws are paramouint, especially if you want do do narrow toleranced tings like gears
[10:44:03] <archivist> it is your choice, not ours
[10:44:16] <sabotender> both the panther and the sable have ballscrews
[10:44:22] <Loetmichel> really?
[10:44:24] <sabotender> archivist: I am just trying to make an informed purchase
[10:44:32] <Loetmichel> doent look like it in the videos/ebay ad
[10:44:44] <sabotender> Loetmichel: I may have misread, but I believe so
[10:45:00] <Loetmichel> links again, please?
[10:46:07] <Loetmichel> sable: Screw and nut: Metric thread M10, pitch=1.5mm, anti-backlash nut.
[10:46:26] <Loetmichel> sabotender: the sable: Screw and nut: Metric thread M10, pitch=1.5mm, anti-backlash nut.
[10:46:30] <Loetmichel> no ballscrews
[10:46:55] <Loetmichel> not even acme thread
[10:47:04] <Loetmichel> that will not last very long
[10:47:05] <sabotender> http://www.ogowell.com/index.php?main_page=product_free_shipping_info&cPath=5&products_id=143
[10:47:16] <MattyMatt> with direct drive from a stepper, you probably need a fine pitch
[10:47:36] <Loetmichel> Lead screws �M10x1.5 pitch (mm)
[10:47:39] <Loetmichel> same thing
[10:47:43] <MattyMatt> I like my 10mm pitch on the woodwork machine tho
[10:47:59] <Loetmichel> that will wear down and get less than precise in no time
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[10:48:17] <sabotender> well, I can't have everything.
[10:48:20] <Loetmichel> (and being a metric thread it will be less than precise to start with)
[10:48:28] <Valen> allthread like they use is also going to be very inaccurate as a rule
[10:48:38] <Valen> I bet its just going to be run through a die
[10:48:44] <Valen> it'll be +- a whole bunch
[10:49:11] <Loetmichel> thats what i meant
[10:49:32] <Valen> just agreeing with you ;->
[10:49:35] <Loetmichel> i made my first cmc "mill" with M5 Stainless threaded rods
[10:49:44] <sabotender> I absolutely cant afford anyting more expesive
[10:50:05] <sabotender> one of those will have to do. I just have to decide which will be better for me
[10:50:07] <MattyMatt> make a plywood one, if you're skint
[10:50:22] <Valen> use MDF it'd be more stable than ply
[10:50:30] <Valen> and you can get it good and thick ;->
[10:50:46] <jdh> http://www.ebay.com/itm/251367336699
[10:50:50] <MattyMatt> after using some inch thick MDF, I disagree
[10:51:08] <Valen> I'd suggest perhaps asking around local hacker spaces or something sabotender, you are probably going to find people who want to get rid of theirs ;->
[10:51:08] <MattyMatt> it's flat when you buy it, but not once you start usu=ing it
[10:51:18] <Valen> well anything is going to do that
[10:51:44] <Valen> particularly if you let moisture into it
[10:51:58] <MattyMatt> plywood can always be persuaded, in ways that would make mdf crack & crumble
[10:52:05] <sabotender> Valen: those may not have the legendary ballscrews, but at least they will be new.
[10:52:23] <Valen> sabotender: new != better in any way shape or form ;->
[10:52:39] <Valen> I'd rather a used one, that way somebody else will have spent a bunch of money fixing it up lol
[10:52:55] * sabotender sighs. archivist is right. It is ultimately my decision
[10:53:02] <Valen> the only parts that wear are the screws and slides
[10:53:25] <Valen> are they using linear slides or just a hacked up bit of uhmw?
[10:53:38] <Loetmichel> took 8 hrs and the brass nuts hadworn out
[10:53:50] <sabotender> I like that particular body style, and I won't get a different style.
[10:54:08] <Valen> why do you like it?
[10:54:42] <Loetmichel> sabotender: that was my first try in CNCing about 20 years ago: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=2859
[10:54:57] <jdh> anything can be better than nothing. even with a crappy chuck.
[10:55:36] <sabotender> jdh: archivist has already said that the chuck is not a jacobs chuck
[10:55:45] <jdh> it is close enough
[10:55:46] <sabotender> actually two people said that it was not
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[10:56:06] <Valen> eh ER collets are good enough for the size of that thing
[10:56:15] <jdh> if you like it, buy it.
[10:56:19] <Valen> I think we have ER13 on ours
[10:56:24] <Loetmichel> MattyMatt: mdf for cnc machines is a no-go exepf as a sacrificial plate
[10:56:33] <sabotender> oh, I probably will. I was just making a point to say that you were wrong.
[10:56:37] <MattyMatt> Loetmichel, 100% agree
[10:56:45] <jdh> ^shrug^
[10:56:48] <Loetmichel> ise plywood or better waterproof plywood (gflued with melamine resin)
[10:56:50] <jdh> it is still junk :)
[10:57:00] <Valen> depends on your goal Loetmichel
[10:57:15] <jdh> doesn't mean it won't work for some things
[10:57:21] <Incognito675> jdh: those 3020 have junk electronics (as in un usable, random stepper skipping)
[10:57:23] <Loetmichel> Valen: no, it doesent
[10:57:40] <Valen> suggest a cheaper material?
[10:57:44] <Loetmichel> mdf is way to sensitive to humidity to do ANY good in the CNC department
[10:57:49] <MattyMatt> I dunno whether to blame my plywood or the drawer slides for my chatter :)
[10:57:56] <MattyMatt> or it could be the dremel
[10:58:08] <Valen> drawer slides and dremel for chatter ;-P
[10:58:08] <Loetmichel> id changes size in the 5% range wehn humidity changes
[10:58:30] <Valen> you still haven't suggested something cheaper ;->
[10:58:41] <Loetmichel> Incognito675: the electronics are useable
[10:58:47] <Loetmichel> the shielding ist
[10:58:49] <Loetmichel> isnt
[10:58:50] <Valen> for some things 5% is fine ;-P besides, thats what paint is for ;->
[10:58:59] <Loetmichel> i have the same electronics aon the 6040
[10:59:03] <MattyMatt> yeah drawer slides aren't the bargain they were, now real slides are getting cheaper
[10:59:16] <MattyMatt> cheap LMU etc
[10:59:23] <Loetmichel> had to shield the cable from VFD to spindle and the stepper /parallelport cabling
[10:59:27] <Valen> linear rails do look to be the stuff
[10:59:28] <Loetmichel> to get it reliable ,-)
[10:59:39] <Valen> wow nasty
[10:59:43] <sabotender> it may be junk, but that is all I can afford. I don't have money coming out of every orifice like some people seem to in here.
[10:59:46] <Incognito675> Loetmichel: Ive been told its bad spike protection on the board... and bad cables
[10:59:58] <Valen> sabotender: you seem to misunderstand
[11:00:01] <sabotender> I am perfectly content in working with what I can afford.
[11:00:14] <Valen> We (well generally) don't have squillions to spend on gear
[11:00:17] <Loetmichel> spikle protection on TB6560-bards are usualle inexistent
[11:00:25] <Loetmichel> s7are/is
[11:00:45] <Valen> but we have all bought cheap crap and raged against its crappyness.
[11:00:53] <Loetmichel> but you dont need spike protection if you remember to screw tight the plugs BEFORE switching the whole ting on
[11:00:54] <Valen> a crap lathe you can do things to sort out
[11:01:04] <Valen> its hard to fix up a CnC
[11:01:16] <Loetmichel> thats the only way to surely kill a 6040: unplug the stepper when running
[11:01:20] <Loetmichel> s/running/powered
[11:01:24] <MattyMatt> http://i.imgur.com/OeOmu.jpg I have to make my own cheap crap
[11:01:40] <Valen> on a lathe when you cut the toolpost bends, you can take a few passes to factor that out or take a heavier cut
[11:01:46] <sabotender> MattyMatt: is that a lathe?
[11:01:49] <Valen> on a CnC mill, done is done
[11:02:03] <MattyMatt> 4th axis on "mill"
[11:02:05] <Valen> its a 4th axis I'll wager ;->
[11:02:19] <Loetmichel> MattyMatt: taht looks familliar:
[11:02:25] <MattyMatt> belt and motor from dot matrix
[11:02:32] <Valen> If you are on a budget, rolling your own "cheap" thing, is going to cost you less and give you a similar product
[11:02:37] <Incognito675> Loetmichel: its one of these http://www.cnczone.com/forums/chinese-machines/190286-yoocnc-3020z-d52-losing-steps.html
[11:02:43] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=281
[11:02:50] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=278
[11:03:07] <sabotender> Valen: I do not have the skils nor the tools necessary to take on such a project. I prefer to buy something ready made
[11:03:13] <Valen> alternatively, trade time for money, sit on ebay or whatever, and wait for somebody to be clearing out their grandads shed
[11:03:24] <Loetmichel> ... i've upgraded since then: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=14820
[11:03:25] <Loetmichel> ;-)
[11:03:42] <malcom2073> sabotender: Or, if you're in the USA, auctions are great. If you're willing to bide your time, you can pick up some really awesome deals at auctions
[11:03:45] <Valen> heh, most of those kits are made by people lacking the skills and tools to do so ;->
[11:04:25] <Loetmichel> sabotender: the skills comes at the job.
[11:04:27] * sabotender shakes his head and wanders out of the channel.
[11:04:30] <Loetmichel> been there, done that ;-9
[11:04:38] <sabotender> time for more dbz.
[11:05:13] <Loetmichel> i've build a machnie for my ex-boss. with a battery drill and some other hand tolls
[11:05:32] <Loetmichel> ... -> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=4935
[11:05:51] <Loetmichel> ... and that beast had run 3 years in a company, 8 hrs a day
[11:06:09] <Valen> $30 for a circular saw = most of the tools for a MDF mill right?
[11:06:38] <Valen> btw, if you want it for making PCBs with, its cheaper to get them made ;->
[11:06:43] <Loetmichel> Valen: over here you can get precut wood at the hardware sore
[11:06:58] <Loetmichel> just tell them you need "these and these" parts to be precise
[11:07:12] <Loetmichel> so i didnt need a circular saw ;-9
[11:07:16] <Valen> I have done PCB milling on our not too crappy mill, and yeah, its cheaper to just get them made ;->
[11:07:23] <Valen> what rail you using on that
[11:07:28] <Valen> looks like profile?
[11:07:31] <MattyMatt> I used a plain crosscut saw to make mine. I can saw to line withing rasping distance
[11:07:55] <Valen> most of our next one is going to be gravel ;->
[11:08:02] <Valen> (epoxy granite ftw)
[11:08:07] <MattyMatt> mine too, with luck :)
[11:08:30] <Valen> I'm going to make a stainless skin for it, then back fill with several hundred KG of rock
[11:08:32] <Loetmichel> Valen: thk hsr 20
[11:08:38] <Valen> did you see our HM45 head?
[11:08:43] * Incognito675 likes the idea of epoxy granite, must play with it one day
[11:08:44] <Valen> Loetmichel: nice, spendy?
[11:08:58] <Loetmichel> about 4500 euros for all the parts
[11:09:11] <Valen> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/general-metal-working-machines/118358-phenolic-basalt-head-hm45.html
[11:09:13] <MattyMatt> I'll be casting in melamine moulds, maybe lined with thin PTFE sheet to aid reuse
[11:09:16] <Valen> so yes then lol
[11:09:32] <Valen> My issue has always been what to do for the bed
[11:09:37] <Loetmichel> i.e: rails, ballscrews spindle,. electronics, steppers, and 300kg of marine plywood
[11:09:52] <Valen> and worrying about what happens if you drop a chunk of steel onto it
[11:10:22] <Loetmichel> the bed of the big machine can cope with BIG steel chunks
[11:10:28] <Loetmichel> its nearly indestructibe
[11:10:34] <MattyMatt> you get a ding
[11:10:42] <Valen> you don't get a ding in epoxy
[11:10:45] <Valen> it'll fracture
[11:11:02] <Loetmichel> ... and hold together with about 1000 spax screws 5*50mm ;-)
[11:11:04] <Valen> 's part of the reason I'm going for a stainless skin on mine
[11:11:17] <Valen> that and *SHINY*
[11:11:40] <MattyMatt> bare granite epoxy has a certain tombstone chic
[11:12:02] <Loetmichel> Valen: thats inside of the big machiens bed: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=4053
[11:12:12] <Valen> heh, the PB we used looks more like frozen poop
[11:12:24] <Valen> I might add a drop of black pigment next time
[11:12:39] <Valen> that all ply?
[11:12:53] <Loetmichel> marine plywood, 22mm, yes
[11:13:00] <Valen> sizable
[11:13:26] <Loetmichel> the maschine had a travel of 1500mm by 1020mm by 160mm ;-)
[11:13:53] <Valen> I tell you what though, for the composite materials, cast lots of screw holes into it
[11:13:56] <Loetmichel> and had a weight in excess of 300kg ;-)
[11:13:59] <Valen> they are *so* handy
[11:14:04] <Valen> because you can't put them in after
[11:14:13] <Loetmichel> oh, xou CAN
[11:14:15] <Valen> any paticular reason for ply rather than Al or steel?
[11:14:24] <Loetmichel> you just have to have a diamond bit ;-)
[11:14:28] <Loetmichel> proce
[11:14:31] <Loetmichel> price
[11:14:35] <Valen> Loetmichel: no no you cant, what you are thinking isn't putting it in
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[11:14:54] <Valen> you would likley fracture the crap out of that section
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[11:17:03] <MattyMatt> I'm planning to take allthread connector nuts, face them off, and have them joined internally to the rebar
[11:17:18] <Loetmichel> Valen: i would think: you will have to grind that hole oversized with a diamond bit and then glue in a insert
[11:17:40] <Loetmichel> you cant cut a thread in concrete or epxy + sand
[11:17:55] <Valen> you would, the issue is the fractures could well propagate back up the rocks
[11:18:17] <MattyMatt> it'll never hold like an insert keyed into the main casting
[11:19:00] <Loetmichel> that may be so, granted
[11:19:02] <Valen> lets just agree that its not a great idea ;->
[11:19:08] <Loetmichel> agreed
[11:19:12] <MattyMatt> best avoided, anyway
[11:19:19] <Valen> put lots of mounts in first ;->
[11:19:28] <MattyMatt> random extra mounts is a good plan
[11:19:41] <Valen> I'd love to be able to get a "bare" T slot table
[11:19:47] <Valen> I'm not really having any luck
[11:19:51] <Loetmichel> i dont like epoxy concrete machiens
[11:19:55] <Loetmichel> to heavy
[11:20:07] <Valen> thats normally a good thing ;->
[11:20:25] <Loetmichel> we already had problems to put that 300kg monster out of the cellat to its new owner
[11:20:44] <Valen> heh, thats why I am desiging it with a lift point
[11:20:45] <Loetmichel> i nearly faited carriung it up the stais, alone on my end of iot ;-)
[11:20:48] <Loetmichel> it
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[11:21:00] <Valen> see theres your problem
[11:21:08] <Valen> machine tools + stairs = a bad time
[11:21:23] <Valen> (we had our lathe in the attic, that was a bad time)
[11:21:49] <Loetmichel> especially when the machine has a 1700mm by 1200mm by 200mm bed that has to be ccarried in one piece up a flight of bnarry cellar stairs ;-)
[11:22:19] <Loetmichel> s/bnarry/narrow
[11:22:20] <Valen> I am planning my new house/shed at the moment
[11:22:28] <Loetmichel> <- sots his fingers, BAD typing today
[11:22:32] <Loetmichel> sorts
[11:22:46] <Valen> it'll have a dedicated workshop area, double height, with provision for a gantry crane
[11:22:52] <Valen> pretensioned concrete floor
[11:22:57] <Valen> epoxy finish
[11:23:02] <MattyMatt> nice
[11:23:04] <Valen> mainly so i can wipe up the drool
[11:23:15] <Loetmichel> hrhr
[11:23:33] <Loetmichel> my wotkshop at home is the not used childs room
[11:23:33] <Valen> I'll stick a car hoist in there too
[11:23:44] <Loetmichel> not good for big maschinery
[11:23:50] <Loetmichel> because of the stairs ;-)
[11:23:50] <Valen> missus wants horses, so we need to get a large property
[11:23:53] <mutley_> ok so this is now missing even more steps and much more ovality on circles, im looking at the electrical power specs of the motor
[11:24:13] <Loetmichel> and because of the living room ceiling that can only hold half a metric ton per square meter
[11:24:27] <Valen> lol
[11:24:44] <Valen> I am hoping to again use prestessed concrete for the floors in the main house
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[11:24:56] <Valen> I'll be for sure having a 1 piece slab of the stuff as the flat roof
[11:25:26] <Valen> they can cast that without any cracks, so if I use hydraulic cement I shouldn't have any issues with water getting through
[11:25:42] <MattyMatt> you could have barrel vault moulds as the former
[11:25:46] <Loetmichel> valen: thats my (messy) workshop: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=9033&g2_imageViewsIndex=2
[11:26:01] <Valen> and I can use the roof of the house as an entertaining area (and wife has OKed the observatory up there)
[11:26:23] <Valen> I want to design the house to need practically no maintence for 100 years ;->
[11:26:25] <Loetmichel> ... 3 by 4 meters
[11:26:36] <Valen> you know if you had twice that amount of space
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[11:26:45] <Valen> you would just have 4x the stuff to put in it
[11:26:48] <Loetmichel> ... it will be filled the same
[11:26:52] <Valen> ;->
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[11:47:49] <mutley_> ok i think ive got it sorted
[11:48:16] * mutley_ rolls in the grass like a drunk grasshopper
[11:49:07] <mutley_> microsteps to 1/4 and turn current up to 4.2amps.....fingers crossed but first measurement of the early cuts measures very round indeed
[11:49:29] <mutley_> now i just need to sort my back out
[11:49:42] <MrHindsight> Valen: make some t-slot tables with the t-slot embedded in resin granite
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[11:56:19] <MrHindsight> I can't think of an easy way for DIYers to be able to cast a flat T-slot table in resin granite
[11:57:24] <MrHindsight> the best possible so far is to start with a ground steel t-slot table and cast it into a base
[12:00:45] <MrHindsight> mutley_: when you started you had not enough torque due to to small microstepping and not enough drive current?
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[12:02:32] <mutley_> MrHindsight: Correct, ive just gone to Gary at Zapp and spoken with him. after changing to 1/4 microsteps, the step skipping was visually very noticeable
[12:02:45] <mutley_> so i looked at current and power specs for motor and stepper driver
[12:03:15] <mutley_> looked at what i thought i should do, spoke with Gary at Zapp, he confirmed that i needed to up the current, the motors are connected in parallel
[12:03:29] <mutley_> (or was it series) anyway all 8 wires are connected
[12:03:40] <mutley_> so it meant i should up current to 4.2amps
[12:03:48] <MattyMatt> parallel needs double the amps
[12:04:12] <mutley_> ive now done that and restsrted a cutting operation, stopped it after a couple of plunges and remeasured, seems oddly spot on ;p
[12:04:26] <MattyMatt> serial has double impedance, so ideally needs double the volts to move as fast
[12:04:29] <mutley_> like it really shouldnt be "that" accurate should it?? lol
[12:05:06] <mutley_> MattyMatt: yea that all makes sense now, and it does seem to be holding together atm
[12:06:08] <mutley_> you know when something isnt right, and you lose confidence in it, then you see it right and your confidence starts to come back
[12:06:19] <mutley_> well im feeling more confident now :)
[12:06:42] <MattyMatt> kinda how I feel about my table saw. I've made a truce
[12:07:11] <mutley_> these gears have been siuch a pain to cut and drill holes centrally, so much so that ive been doing in pairs only and it has been tedious, not to mention the waste
[12:07:38] <mutley_> so now the only thing i have left to do is tell the guy "actually we need to renegotiate this deal" ;p
[12:07:59] <mutley_> fecking time and money wasted is unreal, im soo annoyed in one respect
[12:08:01] <MattyMatt> for the gears or the machine?
[12:08:53] <mutley_> the machine, it was wonky, all holes out of whack, very badly built, and then he also said dont change any settings or wiring he set it up and it took ages, so i took his word for it
[12:09:20] <MrHindsight> mutley_: just stick to facts and science and avoid anything with reprap or with maker in the name and you'll be fine
[12:10:20] <mutley_> MrHindsight: yea well that is relatively sound advice my background is automotive (20yrs on the tools) then did a degree at uni, kinda the wrong way round but there you go
[12:11:08] <mutley_> i do have an ability to fin my way, sometimes i just need a lead in the right direction, not a held hand if you get my drift, i always evaluate for myself, even after gauging others views and thoughts
[12:11:14] <mutley_> *find
[12:11:51] <mutley_> i goddam knew something somehwere wasnt right with this, sooo soo pleased to have nailed it (hoping he hasnt spoken too soon)
[12:12:05] <_methods> ahhh these guys are making cnc simple
[12:12:06] <_methods> how cute
[12:12:09] <_methods> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/178590870/the-nomad-cnc-mill
[12:12:35] <mutley_> MrHindsight: i also steer clear of kickstarter lol
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[12:14:28] <_methods> haha i love the line towards the end
[12:14:43] <_methods> "If you can use a 3d printer you can use the nomad"
[12:15:34] <MrHindsight> the Simple CNC Mill, "We tell you what to buy, so you don't have to think"
[12:15:41] <_methods> hahah
[12:16:01] <_methods> yes plz turn off your brain for all cnc operations
[12:16:06] <MrHindsight> because thinking can be hard
[12:16:34] <_methods> where do these people come from
[12:16:37] <_methods> if any of this was easy
[12:16:41] <_methods> everyone would be doing it
[12:16:50] <MrHindsight> We’ve been in product development for 16 years and have used all of the big digital fabrication technologies - 3D printers, CNC mills, and laser cutters (we own one of each).
[12:16:53] <_methods> it's all inherentley difficult
[12:17:27] <MrHindsight> Fred even owns a drill press!
[12:17:32] <_methods> hehe
[12:17:37] <_methods> is that on their line card
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[12:18:38] <MrHindsight> Rock-Solid Aluminum Frame, did you see the pic?
[12:18:50] <MrHindsight> https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/001/885/346/e427bbd54f7c83bb18a1c6bb31ad895d_large.jpg?1397618765
[12:18:50] <_methods> yeah
[12:19:20] <MrHindsight> https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/001/878/025/d48cd1dadb62b2b7b63c8436c45d25d6_large.jpg?1397497651
[12:19:48] <MrHindsight> oh I see now, the wooden frame adds to the stiffness
[12:19:52] <_methods> yeah looks a lot like a 3020, 6040, zen toolworks
[12:20:02] <_methods> and belt drive..........
[12:20:07] <_methods> love that
[12:20:46] <MrHindsight> ballscrews are just overbuilt and noisy
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[12:20:56] <_methods> they sure aren't "rock" solid
[12:21:03] <_methods> those balls just roll around
[12:21:23] <MrHindsight> how can a rolling ball be solid?
[12:21:30] <_methods> exactly
[12:21:52] <MrHindsight> belts keep you pants up every day, so you know that they work
[12:21:58] <_methods> hahah
[12:22:06] <_methods> damn you
[12:22:14] <_methods> i just got coffee all over my monitor
[12:22:39] <mutley_> noooooo
[12:23:02] <MrHindsight> and Magellan sailed around the world in wooden ships, again proven to work in the harshest of conditions
[12:24:01] <_methods> i love how it says speeds, feeds and depth of cut are handled by software
[12:24:08] <_methods> so you don't have to know anything lol
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[12:24:26] <MrHindsight> they even tell you what to make
[12:24:52] <MrHindsight> in case you didn't see a need to buy this
[12:25:19] <MrHindsight> can you control it with your smartphone?
[12:25:31] <_methods> that's an addon
[12:25:38] <_methods> it's an app
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[12:25:48] <_methods> you can buy in their 3dcnc app store
[12:26:27] <MrHindsight> After Kickstarter The Nomad 883 will be under $2500.
[12:26:49] <_methods> lol
[12:27:09] <_methods> BARGAIN
[12:27:11] <MrHindsight> I should sell a box to cover a 6040
[12:27:31] <_methods> and get kickstarter people to pay for the box
[12:27:48] <MrHindsight> it would be a very nice box
[12:27:57] <_methods> yeah they put veneer on their mdf
[12:28:05] <MrHindsight> real faux wood grain
[12:28:32] <_methods> they already had a pile of morons sign up for it
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[12:30:22] <_methods> oh they have a web page
[12:30:24] <_methods> more fun
[12:30:28] <_methods> http://carbide3d.com/
[12:31:00] <_methods> The Nomad 883 is capable of positioning accuracy better than .001. (that.s the thickness of a human hair). That means you can be sure that part number one will match part number 100 without any special work from you.
[12:31:14] <_methods> pretty sure human hair is thicker than that
[12:31:33] <XXCoder> ugggh bad kickstarter
[12:31:36] <MrHindsight> *tested on cheese
[12:31:41] <_methods> pubic hair?
[12:31:52] <XXCoder> is it just me or is router being operated by a stepper?
[12:31:55] <XXCoder> isnt that bad idea
[12:32:06] <_methods> the spindle you mean?
[12:32:22] <XXCoder> yes thanks, not quite up to lingo in 5:30 am lol
[12:32:49] <_methods> yeah i've never tried driving a spindle with a stepper
[12:32:57] <_methods> at high speeds it will have little torque
[12:33:13] <_methods> but when you're cutting turds or foam i guess that doesn't matter
[12:33:19] <XXCoder> whoo bamboo shell :P
[12:33:33] <MrHindsight> looks like 2:1 so maybe 3k rpm before torque falls off
[12:33:48] <XXCoder> it shows cutting alum
[12:33:56] <XXCoder> I guess rpm is low enough
[12:34:20] <XXCoder> maybe if final price was say $500
[12:34:53] <XXCoder> but $2500? I can almost build whole 8020 cnc with it. which is MUCH larger and stronger
[12:35:05] <_methods> yes
[12:35:11] <_methods> they are preying on 3d printer people
[12:35:12] <MrHindsight> well people have come in here and have argued that "see it works, you're just being negative"
[12:35:19] <_methods> they know that 3d printer people are not that bright
[12:35:20] <MrHindsight> watch the video, see
[12:35:26] <_methods> and will prbably buy anything put in front of them
[12:35:58] <_methods> haha
[12:35:59] <_methods> that faq
[12:36:04] <_methods> what gcodes are supported
[12:36:05] <_methods> lol
[12:37:09] <MrHindsight> wait, it says spindle speed 2000 - 12000 rpm
[12:37:11] <malcom2073> sigh. People like that making us good 3d printer people look bad.
[12:37:55] <MrHindsight> it's reprap in general
[12:38:18] <malcom2073> I know, they feed into it
[12:41:12] <MrHindsight> maybe the stepper motor has a flywheel inside
[12:41:51] <XXCoder> geared up spidle? or maybe it does run 3k rpm-ish on everything
[12:42:11] <_methods> looks like its just belt drive
[12:42:33] <mutley_> well at least if the belt breaks you can use a pair of tights
[12:43:08] <MrHindsight> as an FDM printer it's not too bad
[12:43:41] <XXCoder> its nice toy. too bad it dont come in toy prices
[12:43:49] <_methods> just small work envelope for fdm printer
[12:43:53] <_methods> at taht price
[12:44:43] <MrHindsight> https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/001/885/346/e427bbd54f7c83bb18a1c6bb31ad895d_large.jpg?1397618765 maybe HDPE plate as a stiffener in the rear?
[12:45:09] <_methods> or uhmw
[12:46:53] <jdh> I got a few hundred yards from my house today and my power steering went out. http://tinyurl.com/oy3arzf
[12:47:16] <XXCoder> for lunch? heh
[12:47:30] <MrHindsight> heh
[12:47:42] <malcom2073> Those unsupported rods..... heh
[12:48:15] <XXCoder> happened to me jd, broke a major belt at 60 mph lol. steerinh my csr was so fucking hard
[12:48:29] <XXCoder> I barely made it to exit
[12:49:49] <jdh> this one didn't break. I removed the rat and put teh belt back on.
[12:49:50] <MrHindsight> I do that to work on my upper body while traveling
[12:50:22] <malcom2073> They called old cars muscle cars for a reason....
[12:50:31] <MrHindsight> how did it slip off?
[12:50:41] <XXCoder> rat I guess
[12:51:37] <XXCoder> hind, yeah then there was my old car. It took my weight in order to slowly rotate
[12:52:02] <MrHindsight> parallel parking is fun
[12:53:57] <XXCoder> I bet. I got lucky with that car, as I turned wheel more, it got easier and easier. I barely could change lines in time to arrive at exit (I was driving too far left even then)
[12:54:36] <XXCoder> when I arrived end of ramp, it wasnt too bad, but I reached curb at wrong side of road before I could turn it enough to go back and enter company parking lot
[12:55:24] <XXCoder> loved that car. looked crappy but 3.8L v6, its a powerhouse of a sedan
[12:55:40] <_methods> CRAZY ASS RAT
[12:55:48] <_methods> oops
[12:55:59] <XXCoder> I could easily beat those stupid toyatas with big muffler exit
[12:57:21] <XXCoder> anyway worktime later
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[13:02:37] <skroon> hi
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[14:05:18] <MrHindsight> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-M37lnkkvSw Upgraded Harbor Freight Bead Roller
[14:07:28] <MrHindsight> the original tool is just used to hold the dies
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[14:17:27] <_methods> not bad
[14:20:21] <_methods> thought he was gonna bead the chain guard
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[14:23:32] <ReadError> an ATC would be super sweet
[14:24:58] <MrHindsight> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56YIwNz4QYM his name has come up a few times and it always ends up being poorly designed and built
[14:25:31] <MrHindsight> i guess he's some DIY pie eyed piper?
[14:26:02] <_methods> he does it for entertainment i do believe
[14:26:19] <_methods> his stuff is just silly
[14:27:06] <archivist> intro is enough to make me puke, so I stopped watching
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[14:27:19] <MrHindsight> people take him seriously
[14:27:26] <_methods> really?
[14:27:41] <_methods> he's like epic meal time
[14:27:56] <_methods> for nerds
[14:28:04] <MrHindsight> yes, that's why I think there are so many bad DIY projects
[14:28:08] <_methods> not that epic meal time isn't for nerds
[14:28:40] <`Nerobro> Heh.
[14:28:47] <`Nerobro> Ben Heck does do some "good" things.
[14:28:49] <malcom2073> "good enough for tv" comes to mind
[14:29:00] <`Nerobro> he got that "weird shit" job becasue he did good stuff before.
[14:29:00] <_methods> he's entertaining i think he's kinda funny
[14:29:01] <`Nerobro> still does.
[14:29:35] <`Nerobro> http://benheck.com/portfolio This.. is how he got that job.
[14:29:36] <MrHindsight> he could actually teach at the same time he entertains
[14:29:51] <`Nerobro> MrHindsight, he does, frequently.
[14:31:40] <MrHindsight> he mounts the spindle using hose clamps
[14:32:05] <_methods> yeah i'm pretty sure we're not his target market lol
[14:32:20] <`Nerobro> MrHindsight, so?
[14:33:10] <`Nerobro> You sound like you wouldn't do that. But, for the job he's doing, it works.
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[14:34:12] <MrHindsight> in the same amount of time he could have built a proper machine and explained why
[14:34:45] <malcom2073> I wonder if anyone has done a video like that? Making a solid one out of extruded aluminum etc
[14:34:48] <`Nerobro> I'll need to watch the video. I'm really only familliar with his console builds.
[14:34:55] <`Nerobro> malcom2073, I could.
[14:35:03] <`Nerobro> I have enough pictures that Icould do that for my brute.
[14:35:14] <malcom2073> It'd be a cool video to see, an actual decent DIY cnc build video
[14:36:08] <`Nerobro> so.. what are your problems with his build?
[14:36:27] <malcom2073> I don't know enough to say, I was going by what others said. Looks fine by me, but I'm not experienced :)
[14:36:46] <`Nerobro> I dont' see a damned thing wrong with it.
[14:37:12] <`Nerobro> Other than I dislike that style rig. But for the materials he's cutting, it's not bad.
[14:37:17] <MrHindsight> he has just as many parts in his rickety paper cutter as there is in a metal cutting router
[14:37:33] <malcom2073> So the flimsyness of the materials?
[14:37:38] <`Nerobro> MrHindsight, So?
[14:37:40] <malcom2073> What if someone used say, MDF?
[14:38:22] <MrHindsight> what I find disingenuous is that he doesn't explain that his example is rickety and good for paper art projects
[14:38:52] <`Nerobro> that machine would happily handle wood, and provided he's got the feeds slow enough, aluminum.
[14:39:27] <`Nerobro> And he's not swinging a 3/4" bit.
[14:39:54] <MrHindsight> sure art pieces where measurements are only relative and based on look and feel
[14:40:18] <malcom2073> If you're doing anything requiring precision, you probably won't be using a wood router to mill aluminum anyway :P
[14:40:20] <`Nerobro> MrHindsight, there are a lot of things where 10-20 thou is more precise than needed.
[14:40:54] <`Nerobro> And that will hold that.
[14:41:06] <MrHindsight> for the same amount of effort he (or someone else) could demonstrate sound designs
[14:41:44] <`Nerobro> you're not making an argument that makes any sense.
[14:41:57] <`Nerobro> everything there, translates to higher precision machines.
[14:42:31] <MrHindsight> lets have discussion again in a few years
[14:44:07] <MrHindsight> lots of people manage to built sound machines on very low budgets by being very resourceful
[14:44:21] <`Nerobro> MrHindsight, My Brute mill cost me about $200 in materials
[14:44:26] <`Nerobro> another $200 for the CNC hardware.
[14:44:31] <_methods> wtf is a brute
[14:44:49] <`Nerobro> http://www.crankorgan.com/brute.htm
[14:45:28] <_methods> interesting
[14:45:44] <`Nerobro> The precision limit on it is the spindle. At least for mine. :-)
[14:46:03] <`Nerobro> sometime in the next couple months i'll be building a honest to goodness spindle for it.
[14:46:07] <`Nerobro> For now it's a trim router.
[14:46:18] <MrHindsight> is the black pipe there since it runs on natural gas?
[14:46:27] <`Nerobro> hah
[14:46:55] <`Nerobro> http://www.practicalalchemy.org/~nerobro/public/Pictures/BruteMill/Small/BruteMill_70.JPG
[14:47:25] <malcom2073> Lol
[14:48:20] <`Nerobro> I didn't use pipe clamps. :-)
[14:48:37] <`Nerobro> And I used bigger galvinized pipe
[14:48:40] <_methods> what alum extrusion is that?
[14:48:49] <_methods> doesn't look like c channel
[14:48:49] <`Nerobro> Standard store front aluminum
[14:48:52] <`Nerobro> it's not.
[14:48:57] <`Nerobro> it's the stuff they make comercial windows from
[14:49:38] <MrHindsight> what torque value do you use on the galvanized fittings or do you tack weld them?
[14:50:07] <_methods> is that like sliding window hardware for the ways?
[14:50:14] <`Nerobro> no, not sliding.
[14:50:17] <_methods> can't tell from the pic
[14:50:34] <_methods> just uhmw blocks?
[14:50:56] <MrHindsight> discount Igus/polymer bearings
[14:51:06] <_methods> ugh igus
[14:51:54] <malcom2073> Pretty slick idea though for a cheap linear system
[14:52:35] <MrHindsight> with mozmck hand cranks :)
[14:52:48] <_methods> hehe
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[14:53:49] <MrHindsight> and here I am going on about t-slot epoxy granite DIY
[14:54:20] <archivist> pipe smokin crazy
[14:54:27] <`Nerobro> MrHindsight, as hard as I could, then I drilled and pinned them.
[14:54:29] <_methods> hehe he said pipe
[14:54:37] <`Nerobro> it's just uhmw blocks
[14:54:53] <mozmck> hey! hand cranks are neat! I need to make a steam powered cnc...
[14:55:11] <`Nerobro> Pictures from before it got it's motors :-)
[14:55:50] <`Nerobro> The UHMW gibs allow you to get rid of all slop. :-)
[14:55:54] <`Nerobro> it's quite nice.
[14:56:19] <MrHindsight> I've seen some pretty fancy etch-a-sketch drawings with circles and arcs
[14:56:46] <`Nerobro> the etch a sketch manages to have essentialy no backlash
[14:56:47] <`Nerobro> :-)
[14:56:55] <`Nerobro> it's good stuff
[14:57:01] <MrHindsight> no reason why after a some practice the motors could just be eliminated
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[14:59:26] <`Nerobro> If you wanna do really precise curves, you can't use steppers...
[14:59:42] <`Nerobro> Hell, even servos don't do as good of interperlation as a mechanical setup.
[14:59:43] <`Nerobro> :-)
[14:59:49] <MrHindsight> I just realized that it's also 5 axis
[15:00:01] <`Nerobro> hmm?
[15:00:35] <MrHindsight> the z can twist/rotate in the elbow
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[15:00:44] <`Nerobro> I don't ahve that set up.
[15:01:18] <MrHindsight> weld a handle on the pipe between the 90 Z positioner
[15:01:31] <MrHindsight> 90 and the Z, sorry
[15:01:33] <`Nerobro> then you lose precisoi non the tram
[15:02:04] <MrHindsight> not by more than 1/4 inch or so
[15:03:14] <MrHindsight> with a pi[e in that T you could also rotate the Z to cut arcs
[15:03:28] <MrHindsight> pi[e / pipe
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[15:12:22] <MrHindsight> http://cdn.mscdirect.com/global/images/ProductImages/6211185-11.jpg similar
[15:13:44] <`Nerobro> Hah, a jet radial drill press
[15:13:51] <MrHindsight> http://www.cpojettools.com/jet-320038-j-1600r--7-5-hp--radial-drill-press/jetn320038,default,pd.html $46k
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[15:15:01] <_methods> wow speaking of epic meal time
[15:15:06] <_methods> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2QXHMsjMPg
[15:15:18] <_methods> they got ahhhnold
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[15:23:18] <MrHindsight> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PSG2al1Sus DIY pipe Gantry CNC 4 x 8 servo
[15:25:12] <MrHindsight> how much cheese does this guy need to mill?
[15:26:55] <archivist> cheese would bend that
[15:27:24] <MrHindsight> I think it bends on its own
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[15:28:01] <MrHindsight> was it built on a dare or did he lose a bet?
[15:28:32] <_methods> omg
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[15:29:06] <archivist> back in about 2007/8 there was a pipe lunatic in here with a bit of fence he claimed was his router gantry, just as bendy
[15:30:04] <_methods> ah 2x4
[15:30:12] <_methods> where's the duct tape
[15:30:29] <_methods> wow is that in his house
[15:30:52] <MrHindsight> tape is just for protos, this is the final version
[15:31:24] <_methods> i think that one 2x4 is bolted to his wall
[15:31:56] <_methods> ah string
[15:32:03] <_methods> that works
[15:32:06] <MrHindsight> probably to meet the NEC, OSHA, CIO or similar
[15:32:30] <_methods> that is insane
[15:32:46] <_methods> i hope he made that for some steampunk cnc convention
[15:32:55] <_methods> for his furry friends
[15:32:59] <_methods> and brony buddies
[15:33:12] <MrHindsight> at his place, cause it's not going out through the door
[15:33:32] <MrSunshine> MrHindsight, omg .. that cnc
[15:34:00] <MrHindsight> amamzing, isn't it
[15:34:54] <_methods> yes...........amazing
[15:35:01] <_methods> probably not the right word
[15:35:31] <MrHindsight> it's like visiting a pre-school art show
[15:35:50] <MrHindsight> I can really see all the effort that you put into that
[15:35:57] <_methods> did he waste servos on that thing
[15:36:41] <MrSunshine> hell im finding my cnc not to be rigid enough ... and it uses 40x80mm steel tubing and im trying to have every stickout and stuff as low as possible
[15:36:46] <MrSunshine> but still it flexes like hell =)
[15:37:11] <MrSunshine> using those 1" or something round pipe would bend a buttload of just the weight of the Z axis :P
[15:37:29] <_methods> omg
[15:37:33] <_methods> you justmade my day
[15:37:38] <_methods> that shit is epic
[15:37:52] <_methods> how much time........
[15:37:54] <_methods> money
[15:38:15] <_methods> talkin about learning the hard way
[15:38:21] <MrSunshine> =)
[15:38:25] <MrSunshine> oh well, atleast he will learn :P
[15:38:30] <archivist> entertainment 9, usability -9 total score 0
[15:38:31] <MrSunshine> hopefuly
[15:38:55] <MrSunshine> but then there are some people that just keeps banging their heads into the wall over and over and expect it not to hurt the second time also :P
[15:39:10] <MrHindsight> that's why is always ok to ask questions
[15:39:10] <_methods> i can't stop watching it
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[15:39:48] <_methods> i'm assuming there is a 3d printer in there somewhere
[15:40:01] <MrSunshine> sure to build something not so rigid if you cant afford to buy more rigid stuff, but hel .. all those water pipes and bends and stuff adds up to alot more than some C beams or something would cost :P
[15:40:46] <MrHindsight> plywood and 2x4 would be more rigid
[15:41:22] <_methods> man that thing looks like some alien cnc anal probe contraption
[15:41:52] <MrHindsight> it's art
[15:42:08] <MrHindsight> not in machine building, but with use of pipes
[15:42:10] <_methods> oh he hhas a cnc mill
[15:42:14] <_methods> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nGL8S4CmZs
[15:42:23] <_methods> ah love the vies
[15:42:25] <_methods> vise
[15:42:47] <_methods> this guy is a one man show
[15:43:27] <_methods> the craftsmanship
[15:43:48] <_methods> i'd never considered using pegboard for a sub plate
[15:45:07] <_methods> oh wow at around 2:40 you can see some of it's handiwork
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[15:45:53] <archivist> best left unseen
[15:45:55] <skroon> I would like to create a V groove in plastic, but I was wonderign if I should also draw it in CAD, or just make a line where i want the V grove to be and then use a V cutter?
[15:46:15] <_methods> depends on depth
[15:46:17] <_methods> and width
[15:46:43] <_methods> is your v cutter wide enough?
[15:47:00] <archivist> and there are two axes of v cutters (horizontal/vertical)
[15:47:05] <_methods> omg is he using string on that one too
[15:47:22] <archivist> and elastic bands
[15:47:28] <skroon> right, good questions :-)
[15:47:29] <_methods> sweet baby jeebus
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[15:47:50] <_methods> he must have got his prints for that on thingiverse
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[15:48:09] <skroon> I want to make a plastic casing, where I just make a 45 degree v-groove in 3mm plastic and then be able to cold bend it
[15:48:10] <_methods> thank you MrHindsight
[15:48:52] <archivist> skroon, you have to get the right kind of plastic for that
[15:49:00] <_methods> omg kickstarter today
[15:49:03] <_methods> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/lix3d/lix-the-smallest-3d-printing-pen-in-the-world
[15:49:24] <_methods> kickstarter and 3d printer people
[15:49:28] <skroon> archivist: do you know which plastic perhaps?
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[15:50:43] <archivist> skroon, I dont, but there used to be a uk company making cases in that style, I think they used hot air for the bend and used the grove to keep it straight and nice
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[15:51:06] <skroon> archivist: right, I would like to do that my self, or at least learn about it :)
[15:51:11] <archivist> 20-30 years ago
[15:51:14] <_methods> i think lexan bends decent
[15:52:05] <_methods> i think i had to cold bend some in a break a few times
[15:52:08] <archivist> iirc the sample we got may be in my loft but it would take a year to find
[15:52:10] <_methods> made some machine guards
[15:52:18] <skroon> archivist: I was wondering if you 3D make those v-grooves in your CAD then, or you just let the CNC do it for you during CAM stage
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[15:52:51] <MrHindsight> _methods: I've never seen anything quite like it
[15:53:06] <archivist> depends whether your cad/cam can deal with the sheet bending allowances
[15:53:10] <_methods> yeah you made my day for sure
[15:53:18] <_methods> everyone at work here is getting some good gigglez
[15:53:32] <skroon> archivist: ah right, so during CAD, you would need something like "sheet metal" options?
[15:53:49] <_methods> or just calc your stretch out
[15:54:03] <_methods> bend a piece and see how much you need to add/subtract
[15:54:18] <archivist> skroon, yes because you need to add a bit for the bend
[15:54:36] <jdh> there are bend allowance calculators
[15:54:46] <_methods> hard to find for plastics
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[15:55:10] <skroon> archivist: ah right, Sketchup probably don't suppor that ;-)
[15:55:10] <archivist> most bend alowance calculators know nothing about a grooved bend though
[15:55:17] <_methods> and that too
[15:55:30] <_methods> grooved bend your stretch out should be minimal
[15:55:48] <_methods> you would just loose part of a mat thickness i'm guessing
[15:56:00] <_methods> i've never tried it with a grooved bend line
[15:56:10] <jdh> the bend thickness would jsut be the material that was left after your cut?
[15:56:15] <skroon> _methods: what kind of materials did you bend?
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[15:56:19] <_methods> lexan
[15:56:19] <archivist> probable best to experiment, make a wide bottom in the groove because it will close up
[15:56:47] <_methods> but i did cold bend with no groove
[15:56:53] <_methods> in a cnc press brake
[15:57:02] <_methods> and nothing critical
[15:57:03] <skroon> what is a CNC press brake?
[15:57:11] <skroon> Lexan looks like Acrylic right ?
[15:57:16] <archivist> bending machine
[15:57:17] <_methods> yes
[15:57:19] <R2E4> mornin!!
[15:57:26] <skroon> what's the difference?
[15:57:32] <_methods> about $200k
[15:57:34] <_methods> lol
[15:57:35] <skroon> damn! :)
[15:58:05] <_methods> ah lunch time
[15:58:19] <skroon> which CAD tools would have support of these type of bending ?
[15:58:33] <R2E4> iocontrol lube, in a nutshell, how do you control it so the lube pump runs every so often?
[15:58:57] <archivist> solidworks does normal bending without a rear groove
[15:59:15] <skroon> archivist: what is a 'rear groove' ?
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[16:01:09] <archivist> internal to the bend
[16:01:19] <archivist> not external
[16:01:59] <archivist> get a sheet metal book, most bending is discussed there
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[16:03:27] <archivist> then a biscuit tin and a pair of scissors, practice
[16:04:04] <archivist> result http://www.collection.archivist.info/searchv13.php?searchstr=tinware
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[16:06:25] <MrHindsight> Lexan is a brand name of acrylic
[16:06:41] <MrHindsight> like xerox vs copier
[16:08:57] <jdh> lexan is polycarbonate, plexiglas is acrylic
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[16:26:09] <MrHindsight> oh then laexan has carbonate groups (–O–(C=O)–O–) vs the acrylic, so it has higher tensile and flexural modulus
[16:32:40] <MrHindsight> skroon: http://www.hydrosight.com/acrylic-vs-polycarbonate-a-quantitative-and-qualitative-comparison/
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[16:42:45] <archivist> skroon, after a while the name came to me out of the dark corners http://www.camdenboss.com/enclosures/custom-size-enclosures/flush-fitting-end-cases
[16:43:23] <archivist> they mill the groove also the snap together edge groove
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[16:46:40] <jdh> it woudl be cool to make plexi cases with nice bends after using a 90-degree v-bit.
[16:47:39] <Loetmichel> jdh: i would cut the plexi all the way through
[16:47:51] <Loetmichel> just gut 90% of the thickness
[16:47:51] <jdh> then glue?
[16:47:55] <Loetmichel> with a v-bit
[16:48:02] <Loetmichel> fold, glue
[16:48:04] <Loetmichel> ;-)
[16:48:26] <jdh> I should order a 6040 and make some.
[16:48:27] <Loetmichel> like i do the aluminium cases at work
[16:48:38] <jdh> jsut can't bring myself to spend $2k on a chinese router
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[16:49:14] <jdh> I need to go get another bucket of shark teeth
[16:49:22] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=14688&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
[16:49:47] <Loetmichel> result: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=14778
[16:49:55] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=14595
[16:50:32] <jdh> and you still like yoru 6040? it's a normal chinese one?
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[16:50:40] <Loetmichel> it is
[16:50:48] <Loetmichel> works perfect for the job
[16:50:50] <jdh> their electronics?
[16:50:51] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=14160&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
[16:52:20] <Loetmichel> there you can see enclosures in varous states of "Done". i fold them by hand! (with the helb of a little vice for the small flaps where you dont have enough grip with the hands)
[16:52:40] <Loetmichel> original as bought
[16:53:10] <Loetmichel> just mounted it to the desk with 18 screws and made a vacuum table lately
[16:54:12] <jdh> carving-cnc.com or some other vendor?
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[16:54:22] <Loetmichel> i bought mine at ebay
[16:54:30] <Loetmichel> didnt remember the vendor, though
[16:54:41] <Loetmichel> s/didnt/dont
[16:55:08] <jdh> I'm fairly sure if I send them my money, some real iron will show up nearby for sale.
[16:55:12] <Loetmichel> ant they are cheaper than $2k
[16:55:23] <Loetmichel> you can get them for e little more than 1200 eur
[16:55:31] <Loetmichel> so about $1500 ?
[16:55:33] <jdh> with shipping/120vac/etc, it was $1896 I think.
[16:55:41] <jdh> or $1585 shipped from random ebay vendor
[16:56:11] <jdh> or $1800 total if I get teh bare frame, g540+PS, spindle
[16:56:32] <Connor> http://www.carving-cnc.com/cnc6040-series/cnc-6040z-s80-new-router-engraver-drilling-and-milling-machine.html
[16:57:13] <jdh> Connor: I've had that one in my shopping cart several times.
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[16:57:43] <Connor> I think you probably could get just the frame with electronics for half that from them..
[16:57:49] <jdh> you can
[16:58:07] <jdh> Grand Total $1,964.50
[16:58:09] <Loetmichel> why?
[16:58:17] <Connor> I would try to get it without the screws so you could do them right.
[16:58:41] <Loetmichel> which screws?
[16:58:42] <jdh> err... you can get the frame with steppers for $900 + shipping
[16:58:57] <MrHindsight> you mean the free floating ballscrews? :)
[16:58:59] <Connor> rotate the bottom rails 90degrees..
[16:59:17] <Loetmichel> the watercooled spindle is worth a few 100 bucks!
[16:59:21] <Connor> MrHindsight: Yup. no bearing block. :(
[16:59:50] <MrHindsight> Connor: did you see the before pics for the 4530 from Keiling?
[16:59:51] <Loetmichel> Connor: so i have a different one
[17:00:08] <Loetmichel> mine has 2 bearings on the drive side and one floating bearing on den "open" side
[17:00:09] <Connor> MrHindsight: I think so...
[17:00:17] <MrHindsight> 5mm of end play
[17:00:41] <Connor> Loetmichel: Where did you get it from? Because 99% of them have no bearing blocks for the screws.
[17:01:13] <Loetmichel> so how are the ballscrews mounted then?
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[17:01:24] <Loetmichel> just pressed on the motor shafts?
[17:01:44] <Connor> The use coupler and stepper motor.. and maybe... a single floating bearing on the end..
[17:02:02] <Connor> MrHindsight: show him your pics
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[17:03:02] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=14136&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
[17:03:08] <Loetmichel> hmm, mine looks identical
[17:03:11] <Connor> You know what.. that model isn't using using supported rails.. no need to rotate them..
[17:03:22] <Loetmichel> but in the black plastic bocks are 2 bearings and a slotted cpupler
[17:03:26] <Loetmichel> coupler
[17:04:04] <Loetmichel> ... which alreadya had broken on x any y ;-)
[17:04:09] <Loetmichel> chinese quality ;-)
[17:04:21] <Connor> maybe the ones from carving-cnc.com are better.. the ones on Ebay are done the way we're describing.
[17:04:27] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=14193
[17:04:31] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=14196
[17:05:23] <Connor> okay.. no, they're using supported for the Y axis.. and they're wrong way... need to be 90degrees..
[17:05:40] <Connor> so the gantry doesn't rock back and forth.
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[17:08:10] <PetefromTn_Andro> Connor hey man!$!!
[17:08:22] <Connor> PetefromTn_Andro: Heya
[17:08:38] <PetefromTn_Andro> Howsitgoin?
[17:09:03] <Connor> PetefromTn_Andro: Okay.. Was out of town most of last week... very hard week..
[17:10:47] <PetefromTn_Andro> Well that Sux sorry to hear that..
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[17:11:06] <JT-Shop> Hey Pete
[17:11:31] <Loetmichel> Connor: i bouhgt it from this ebay seller
[17:11:33] <Loetmichel> http://www.ebay.de/itm/New-4-AXIS-CNC-6040-ROUTER-ENGRAVER-DRILLING-AND-MILLING-MACHINE-aa-/330863074297?pt=UK_BOI_Metalworking_Milling_Welding_Metalworking_Supplies_ET&hash=item4d08f9dbf9
[17:11:38] <Loetmichel> ... but an older version
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[17:12:16] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=14115&g2_imageViewsIndex=1 <- thats mine (and a co-worker ;-)
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[17:12:47] <PetefromTn_Andro> Hey JT!!#
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[17:16:50] <IchGuckLive> hi all B)
[17:17:52] <malcom2073> Hi
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[17:18:28] <Connor> Loetmichel: That one looks the same.. some of the ebay ones just plain suck. and maybe it's more prevalent on the 3020's
[17:18:35] <IchGuckLive> one day off tomorrow here in germany yeh
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[17:19:07] <IchGuckLive> Connor: go for 604ß diy
[17:19:13] <IchGuckLive> 6040
[17:19:32] <ReadError> theres a DIY 6040 ?
[17:20:40] <IchGuckLive> in the usa dozens in the china reachens thousends
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[17:21:40] <IchGuckLive> mr hind shoudt demount one and send it to you by low level parts to get the postich low
[17:25:04] <Connor> http://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/cnc-router/kl4530-cnc-mold-makers-router
[17:25:12] <Connor> http://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/KL-4530-21-300x300.jpg
[17:25:15] <Connor> exable of bad design
[17:25:47] <xxoxx> anybody using sherline ?
[17:25:49] <Connor> He gets those from china.. after he sells out.. he's not going to carry that one anymore.
[17:25:58] <IchGuckLive> Loetmichel: is the may tree up at your hometown
[17:26:26] <IchGuckLive> xxoxx: lots of us using what is your main problem
[17:26:37] <xxoxx> My friend wants an opinion before buying
[17:26:50] <xxoxx> whether Sherline mill is any good
[17:27:13] <IchGuckLive> what is his main goal to be meet with the mashine
[17:27:27] <xxoxx> milling some aluminum parts
[17:27:43] <IchGuckLive> then sherline is not the best bed
[17:27:52] <xxoxx> um.. how so ?
[17:28:04] <xxoxx> they look awfully cute
[17:28:27] <IchGuckLive> cute is not strong
[17:28:32] <archivist> cute is not manly
[17:28:39] <xxoxx> oh...
[17:28:56] <IchGuckLive> how big are the parts expected
[17:29:14] <xxoxx> about an inch each side ?
[17:29:33] <IchGuckLive> then a RF45 is a better choice
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[17:29:38] <PetefromTn_Andro> I'm cute AND manly....
[17:29:49] <archivist> lies
[17:30:28] <IchGuckLive> xxoxx: where are you in the world
[17:30:31] <xxoxx> RF45 mill drill
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[17:30:47] <xxoxx> Midwest
[17:31:14] <xxoxx> I'd have to go to a dealer for the RF45
[17:31:34] <IchGuckLive> go to the next homedepo or Eqyal store and look for some like that size
[17:31:53] <xxoxx> yeah. Actually I am not that far from Southbend, the city
[17:31:55] <IchGuckLive> its around 150USD UP
[17:32:01] <xxoxx> k
[17:32:31] <IchGuckLive> and et a nema23 set pon it then you are in business
[17:33:17] <IchGuckLive> the RF series is holding a 0.5" bit so it is able to meet your neet
[17:33:36] <xxoxx> ok.
[17:33:41] <IchGuckLive> 0.5inch drill bit
[17:33:43] <xxoxx> thanks for info
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[17:36:49] <IchGuckLive> there is a tool shop in southbend c city indiana with 3D printers you shoudt take a walk in
[17:37:55] <IchGuckLive> they are selling 3D printers for 750USD ready to go
[17:38:19] <xxoxx> wow that's cool
[17:38:37] <IchGuckLive> there are shure freeks like us hanging around
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[17:40:09] <xxoxx> personally, I think the Sherline lathes are good; mills are bit weakly constructed
[17:40:13] <xxoxx> especially the 2000 series
[17:40:18] <xxoxx> 8-directional mill
[17:40:28] <_methods> 8 directions?
[17:40:34] <xxoxx> yeah
[17:41:00] <xxoxx> a bridge-port turret in miniature
[17:41:01] <_methods> south by southwest
[17:41:26] <jdh> you are making 1"x1" parts? seems like a sherline might be adequate for that?
[17:41:39] <xxoxx> my friend does, not me
[17:41:48] <xxoxx> he's into trains and what not
[17:41:51] <jdh> connor: I've read the 3020s are much worse than the 6040
[17:42:03] <Connor> jdh: Starting to see that.
[17:42:09] <Connor> 3020 and 3040's
[17:42:56] <jdh> http://www.carving-cnc.com/accessories/cnc-router-mainbody.html
[17:43:03] <jdh> I'd get taht, but shipping still sucks.
[17:43:09] <jdh> and I'm wary of random ebay sellers
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[17:43:30] <Connor> On stuff that expensive.. me too. :)
[17:44:01] <jdh> and if I buy it, a real lathe will show up within 5 miles of me for less $$
[17:44:10] <MattyMatt> those tslot router look easy enough to make, especially if you get the tslot cut to length
[17:44:57] <jdh> time or money
[17:45:19] <MattyMatt> and the ballscrews still have to come from china
[17:46:34] <MattyMatt> there is the convenience of building it in place of course. you don't have to move it in fully assembled
[17:47:08] <jdh> mine will go in the garage door and sit where my current router is sitting.
[17:47:44] <MattyMatt> fair enough, but it's a consideration for some. I'm upstairs @ momma's
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[17:48:21] <jdh> looks like it ships with teh gantry separate
[17:48:59] <MattyMatt> if you already have a router, making that gantry should be fairly trivial
[17:49:45] <jdh> time or money
[17:49:50] <MattyMatt> $899 isn't extortionate I guess
[17:50:42] <jdh> $1200 shipped. + spindle/vfd + drives
[17:52:02] <xxoxx> got url link ?
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[17:53:34] <JesusAlos> hi
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[17:53:55] <MattyMatt> buena sera
[17:54:08] <JesusAlos> buenas
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[17:54:28] <IchGuckLive> hi jesus
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[17:54:47] <JesusAlos> how about?
[17:55:02] <IchGuckLive> its a great day tomorrow of in germany
[17:55:26] <IchGuckLive> android programming today wend gread and so im happy
[17:57:43] <JesusAlos> I thought play Bayern
[17:58:19] <JesusAlos> ou publish in market?
[17:58:44] <IchGuckLive> no school internal
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[17:59:49] <JesusAlos> I meet a programmer he do application. said to have sweated
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[18:00:16] <malcom2073> Woah
[18:00:25] <malcom2073> the SBR rail+ballscrew sets on ebay have dropped in price since I last looked.
[18:00:37] <IchGuckLive> im in the finish line of worklive september is off for ever no more CNC and all stuff
[18:00:52] <malcom2073> Was looking at them to build my own router, they've gone from $900 to $300 for a 1150/850/300 set
[18:01:12] <IchGuckLive> thats a real price
[18:01:38] <IchGuckLive> malcom2073: there are mashines avalilable at 600USD including all and spindle
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[18:01:57] <malcom2073> IchGuckLive: Cheap chinese crap, or decently built stuff?
[18:02:00] <IchGuckLive> malcom2073: this set is more like plasma
[18:02:48] <IchGuckLive> china stuff is not that bad
[18:02:52] <MattyMatt> pre built routers, it's all down to the skill of the builder
[18:03:11] <malcom2073> Not all china stuff is bad, but there are some really poorly designed setups out there
[18:03:16] <IchGuckLive> they got allmost ballscrews and realy good running sbr
[18:03:34] <JesusAlos> IchGuckLive: What say? you will retire?
[18:03:44] <IchGuckLive> yes
[18:04:08] <IchGuckLive> never exer looking at one of the 160+ mashines
[18:04:11] <IchGuckLive> ;-)
[18:04:21] <IchGuckLive> v
[18:04:23] <jdh> my slush fund is mostly in cash at the moment instead of PayPal or I'd order one.
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[18:05:05] <IchGuckLive> jd look at the toolshops that grow all over the USA for 3D printing
[18:05:16] <jdh> I'm not a 3d printer fan
[18:05:23] <IchGuckLive> they got good and fast connectioons to best price parts
[18:05:24] <JesusAlos> a lot German come to Spanish sun when retire
[18:05:51] <IchGuckLive> i will once stand at your office i promiss
[18:05:58] <IchGuckLive> O.o
[18:06:13] <malcom2073> jdh: you're not a fan of 3d printers, or of reprap?
[18:06:24] <JesusAlos> I wait you
[18:06:34] <MattyMatt> yeah if you can afford to import a palette full of chinese stuff, you could resell it as cheap as they do
[18:07:08] <jmasseo> there are some interesting chinese machines
[18:07:13] <Gigs-> no one seems to sell a 16 gauge slip roll smaller than 4 feet :(
[18:07:17] <MattyMatt> if you inspected and certified it youself, you'd add value
[18:07:35] <jmasseo> http://www.ebay.com/itm/HY-3040-5-Axis-CNC-Router-Column-Engraving-Machine-Ball-Screw-800W-Spindle-Motor-/321280118293?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4acdc98e15
[18:07:43] <jmasseo> Something like this is really appealing for wax modelling
[18:07:53] <MattyMatt> Gigs, you see 8 and 6 inch ones from jewellery places
[18:07:59] <Gigs-> yeah the baby ones
[18:08:22] <IchGuckLive> http://xrcnc.com/
[18:08:35] <Gigs-> amazon has the 50 inch jet on prime shipping and still $200 less than other places are selling without shipping which is nice
[18:08:58] <IchGuckLive> Gigs-: go for freesculpterV1
[18:09:05] <jmasseo> http://xrcnc.com/showpro.asp?id=94
[18:09:06] <jmasseo> nice
[18:09:07] <jmasseo> that's hot
[18:09:19] <Gigs-> IchGuckLive: huh?
[18:09:22] <malcom2073> jmasseo: what is that?
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[18:09:41] <jmasseo> a funky cnc lathe
[18:09:48] <malcom2073> Huh
[18:09:48] <jmasseo> with 8 chucks and 8 tool heads
[18:09:54] <jdh> I am not a fan of 3d printers. Reprap is amusing at least.
[18:09:54] <jmasseo> that all move on one gantry
[18:10:02] <malcom2073> That is funky heh
[18:10:04] <jmasseo> or is it a mill?
[18:10:07] <jmasseo> it's kind of funky
[18:10:07] <malcom2073> jdh: Alright.
[18:10:14] <Gigs-> are the 3-in-1 shear brake rollers even worth messing with?
[18:10:18] <jmasseo> it's a 8 head 8 chuck 4th axis mill?
[18:10:19] <malcom2073> jmasseo: Would make sense if you need to make 8 of something at once
[18:10:31] <jmasseo> yeah.
[18:10:36] <jmasseo> any sort of mass production of small items.
[18:10:37] <IchGuckLive> Gigs-: google FreeSculpt EX-1
[18:10:58] <Gigs-> I think you got the wrong person
[18:11:06] <jdh> we have a sintered metal 3d printer here somewhere.
[18:11:21] <IchGuckLive> ok im off bye
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[18:11:27] <Gigs-> heh k
[18:11:39] <Gigs-> I was talking about slip rollers and he's sending me to a 3d printer
[18:11:57] <malcom2073> jdh: Someone posted a really awesome video of one which puts down metal with a laser, and then mills it all in one operation, pretty awesome
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[18:12:07] <MattyMatt> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9IdZ2pI5dA
[18:12:08] <archivist> he is always wrong about peoples questions
[18:12:17] <malcom2073> MattyMatt: has it bookmarked :)
[18:12:27] <Gigs-> he might have trouble with english
[18:12:46] <MattyMatt> it's the only 3d printer that is worth mentioning in this room :)
[18:12:55] <_methods> ^^
[18:13:18] <MattyMatt> that laser doesn't look giant
[18:13:41] <Gigs-> yeah to me 3d printing is seriously overhyped right now... it's one of those things that will probably become awesome one day, but right now the extruded plastic stuff is kind of useless
[18:13:50] <malcom2073> I want to know the process behind the laser carrying the metal down
[18:14:09] <Gigs-> did you all see the guy that was 3d printing sand with a fresnel lens?
[18:14:09] <MattyMatt> it's powder blown in with the cooling gas
[18:14:41] <malcom2073> MattyMatt: I've seen a metal printer that used powder melted with a laser, didn't look nearly as nice or as smooth as that though, they got it down good
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[18:14:59] <gene78> hey guys, I have an RGB external threading tool whose chip is tipped forward about 7 or 8 degrees. I think I am on center height, the chip is not damaged, but its chattering to beat hell. Ideas?
[18:15:15] <MattyMatt> normal SLS solidifies a shape in a tub of powder
[18:15:19] <Gigs-> chip=insert?
[18:15:33] <_methods> topper insert?
[18:15:35] <gene78> yes
[18:15:38] <_methods> or just straight 60deg?
[18:15:40] <malcom2073> MattyMatt: I mean powder blown onto the part and then melted in place
[18:15:46] <malcom2073> like that does, but uglier. lemme see if I can find a link
[18:15:50] <gene78> 60 degree
[18:16:07] <MattyMatt> I've seen one other, but that was still pretty neat
[18:16:14] <_methods> can you angle your tool just a bit off 60?
[18:16:25] <jdh> can you fit a 1/4" tool in a ER11?
[18:16:27] <_methods> so you're not taking a full cut on both sides
[18:16:32] <_methods> of the 60
[18:16:40] <gene78> not without turning the qc post
[18:16:42] <_methods> it's not a perfect thread form
[18:16:42] <Gigs-> heh I tried to grind a 60 degree tool freehand yesterday because the real threading tool broke. The threads looked a little funky but they worked :P
[18:16:43] <zeeshan> how dyou check a mill table for "nicks"
[18:16:50] <_methods> but it will relieve insert stress
[18:16:52] <zeeshan> run a surface gauge on it?
[18:16:55] <zeeshan> w/ a tdi?
[18:17:30] <_methods> can you put a small shim behind the tool in the holder?
[18:17:33] <_methods> to get it off 60
[18:17:36] <MattyMatt> jdh yes http://www.ebay.com/itm/ER11-2-PCS-Spring-Collet-Set-for-CNC-Workholding-milling-Lathe-tool-1-4-1-8-/111098946753
[18:17:37] <gene78> I'm useing g76, so the cut is on the left face
[18:17:39] <_methods> just a deg or so
[18:17:42] <_methods> ok
[18:17:47] <_methods> well nm that then
[18:17:55] <_methods> what material?
[18:17:58] <_methods> steel?
[18:18:00] <_methods> alum?
[18:18:16] <Gigs-> zeeshan: using blue indicator is the best way
[18:18:20] <Gigs-> if it's metal
[18:18:28] <zeeshan> blue indicator?
[18:18:33] <_methods> prussian blue
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[18:18:39] <gene78> steel, and I just noted the g76 was set for 29 degrees, now at 30, lets see what happens
[18:18:46] <zeeshan> you mean machinist dye?
[18:18:51] <Gigs-> yes
[18:19:00] <zeeshan> i see what you mean
[18:19:02] <zeeshan> spray it on the entire table
[18:19:07] <archivist> no the dye dries
[18:19:07] <Gigs-> dykem
[18:19:12] <zeeshan> then sand it down?
[18:19:14] <zeeshan> :P
[18:19:15] <Gigs-> no
[18:19:18] <zeeshan> haha
[18:19:19] <archivist> w mean the marking blue
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[18:19:38] <malcom2073> hmm no lnik
[18:19:40] <Gigs-> coat an area with dykem and then run something very flat across it like a gauge block or a quality parallel
[18:19:48] <Gigs-> that will indicate high and low areas
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[18:20:11] <Gigs-> it won't tell you if the table is square though
[18:20:21] <zeeshan> yes
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[18:20:23] <zeeshan> i need to do this
[18:20:34] <zeeshan> so i can adjust the knod and rotation of the head
[18:20:43] <zeeshan> i figure if i dont have a flat surface
[18:20:45] <jdh> they are selling 6040 frame only on ebay now
[18:20:47] <zeeshan> i'll adjust the knod wrong
[18:21:08] <Gigs-> well yeah your machine is only as good as your table is rigid square and flat
[18:21:10] <archivist> you need a surface table
[18:21:20] <zeeshan> archivist: for?
[18:21:30] <archivist> a flat reference
[18:21:32] <MattyMatt> I saw a neat trick to get a table flat, using string
[18:21:35] <gene78> not aq lot of improvement
[18:21:39] <zeeshan> archivist: what should i look for online
[18:21:44] <zeeshan> i wanna watch a video on the process
[18:21:55] <Gigs-> float glass is pretty damn flat if you are cheap
[18:22:05] <Gigs-> it's not going to be as good as the real tool
[18:22:08] <_methods> and you said your insert is chipped?
[18:22:47] <_methods> and what diameter of thread are you cutting?
[18:22:59] <_methods> and how far is it out of the chuck?
[18:23:16] <_methods> you tryin to thread a toothpick or something?
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[18:23:26] <archivist> gene78, chatter is machine and speed resonance slow down/speed up, thread when there is more metal for stiffness
[18:23:50] <_methods> and i skip the thread cycles if i need to do crazy threads
[18:23:54] <_methods> give you more control
[18:24:06] <_methods> it sucks manually programmin all the lines
[18:24:21] <_methods> but it can let you thread sometimes difficult parts
[18:25:23] <archivist> some times rough it and then clean with a die
[18:25:42] <Gigs-> I tried threading last night on the manual south bend, that was a mess. I think the slowest it goes is like 1000 rpm. 18TPI was exciting at least.
[18:25:55] <gene78> thats the impression i am getting the vibration can be felt in the spinning chuch about the same as the tool post.
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[18:26:06] <archivist> back gear on the southbend?
[18:26:18] <_methods> yeah you shouldn't be threading at 1000rpm lol
[18:26:24] <_methods> on a manual
[18:26:48] <Gigs-> I never missed the index but I did bump the compound accidentally with so much stuff going on so fast
[18:26:53] <_methods> good way to mess up some chuck jaws
[18:27:03] <Gigs-> the threads came out but they were a little asymmetrical :P
[18:27:54] <Gigs-> we have a big enco lathe that we normally thread on, I just never tried it on the south bend before
[18:28:17] <archivist> I have had some nice threads off the southbend
[18:28:20] <JesusAlos> gn8
[18:28:29] <Gigs-> if you can get yours slower then it would be fine for it
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[18:29:02] <Gigs-> I think someone put a 3600 rpm motor on this one or something, because the speeds range from fast to crazytown
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[18:29:23] <archivist> have you tried the back gear?
[18:29:36] <Gigs-> not familiar with that
[18:30:16] <Gigs-> oh looking at pictures, I don't think this one has that
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[18:30:42] <archivist> pull the dog clutch pin, pull the top left lever forward
[18:31:03] <archivist> show a pic of yours
[18:31:13] <Gigs-> don't have one here
[18:31:21] <Gigs-> I'll take one if I remember
[18:32:27] <archivist> http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/south-bend-lathes/south-bend-lathe-advice-148217/
[18:32:46] <archivist> that has an image with the location
[18:33:16] <Gigs-> I'll take a closer look when I get back to the shop
[18:33:46] <gene78> running it up to 450 r's from 300 seems to help and the thread didn't slide sideways enough to hurt it. I am reducing the diameter about 5 thou per run as I approach a good fit, 32 tpi, diameter about .935 atm, still too big.
[18:33:47] <Gigs-> I think it may have been removed because the belt is where it would have been
[18:33:51] <archivist> and look at this image http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2014/2014_03_19_Southbend/IMG_1738.JPG
[18:34:09] <archivist> to see the lower right pin
[18:34:30] <_methods> .005" can be heavy for final cuts
[18:34:37] <_methods> you may want to drop that to .002
[18:34:47] <_methods> depending on the part
[18:34:55] <archivist> g76 does that automagically
[18:34:59] <_methods> but at .935 that should be plenty rigid
[18:35:51] <_methods> not sure how far you are tryin to thread from the chuck though
[18:35:57] <_methods> or if you're using tailstock?
[18:35:59] <archivist> the metal might be but the lathe could be a spring :)
[18:36:00] <_methods> subspindle
[18:36:29] <_methods> kinda light on details to help troubleshoot chatter problems in threading
[18:37:06] <gene78> it has a 3/8 hole down the center, and has been precut with a cutoff tool to a hub about .650 in diameter, so there is a fex point of sorts there
[18:37:07] <_methods> are you using CSS?
[18:37:30] <gene78> this lathe IS a spring, iots an elderly 7x12!!!
[18:37:45] <Gigs-> archivist I'll take another look but the motor on this lathe is very non-standard, all that stuff isn't in the normal places. I'll bring pics tomorrow or sometime
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[18:40:54] <gene78> no, not for this
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[18:41:30] <_methods> i guess g76 takes over feed rate anyways
[18:42:15] <gene78> css and g76 are incompatible due to thread position offsets introduced by the variable speed spindl.
[18:42:20] <_methods> yeah
[18:44:08] <_methods> i would definitely take lighter passes when threading especially if this is not a "production" part
[18:46:03] <_methods> if you still have chatter takin .001-.004" you need to fix your setup or machine
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[18:50:33] <zeeshan> archivist: help me understand something
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[18:50:55] <archivist> wwwww what
[18:50:58] <zeeshan> i understand tramming the head (left right rotation, front and back nod)
[18:51:08] <zeeshan> if my head is trammed
[18:51:21] <zeeshan> shouldnt the table be square with the spindle axis?
[18:51:31] <_methods> yes
[18:52:00] <archivist> but there are many other possible errors too
[18:52:04] <zeeshan> like what
[18:52:16] <zeeshan> that's where im confused
[18:52:26] <zeeshan> i do have a cylindrical square i can use to check the nod and rotation
[18:52:40] <zeeshan> instead of the table
[18:52:46] <archivist> each and every machine angle
[18:53:22] <zeeshan> in the past, for my drill press
[18:53:29] <zeeshan> i've just used a ground piece of steel
[18:53:36] <zeeshan> and moved the quill up and down to check squareness
[18:54:02] <archivist> be careful that the spindle is parallel to the column axis and that the column is square with the table
[18:54:04] <zeeshan> but i can see if you follow standard tramming procedures, you're just doing it on one planar level
[18:55:01] <gene78> the thread looks like hell, but fits nice & snug, I wound up setting the advance at 30.1 degrees and no spring cycles since they made it worse
[18:55:20] <_methods> spring passes made it worse?
[18:55:40] <_methods> weird
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[18:56:17] <archivist> you need a copy of Schlesinger testing machine tools and also machine tool reconditioning be connelly
[18:56:17] <_methods> you must have something loose or your spindle bearings have slop in them or tool post
[18:57:28] <jp_mill> so what would cause a servo to slowly run away at idle but work fine when commanded?
[18:57:34] <PetefromTn_Andro> Make sure your tool bit is on center or slightly below.
[18:58:45] <zeeshan> http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww216/bjorn_toulouse/tram1.jpg
[18:58:46] <zeeshan> haha
[18:58:51] <zeeshan> what an awesome choice for tramming
[18:59:00] <zeeshan> i bet thats a bearing raceway
[18:59:05] <zeeshan> from a huge ass ship engine bearing
[18:59:16] <zeeshan> or some huge diesel truck
[18:59:18] <cradek> jp_mill: any offset in the velocity input - it's totally normal
[18:59:46] <cradek> jp_mill: you just need to not enable the amps when they're not under pid control. use the axis.0.amp-enable-out pin.
[19:01:02] <jp_mill> cradek: http://pastebin.com/J9rc6yBG
[19:01:16] <PetefromTn_Andro> I've got a big bearing race like that I used to use for tramming.
[19:01:29] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_Andro: send me one!
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[19:03:32] <PetefromTn_Andro> I could but I got it from the heavy equipment repair shop not far from me for free....surely there is one newrby you.
[19:04:22] <jp_mill> cradek: sorry the first one was clipped short here is the whole axis
[19:04:23] <jp_mill> http://pastebin.com/8XV5KNXA
[19:04:26] <cradek> jp_mill: if you're asking a question with that pastebin I don't know what it is
[19:05:29] <jp_mill> cradek: the axis is slowly runnig away under pid control
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[19:06:25] <cradek> yes I answered that above
[19:06:39] <cradek> wait when it IS under pid control?
[19:06:47] <cradek> are you sure?
[19:06:55] <jp_mill> yes
[19:07:16] <cradek> what's your tuning?
[19:07:53] <jp_mill> running torque control on a AB servo with a mesa 7i77 P = 500 I = 60 D = 10
[19:08:32] <jp_mill> i can run a program but when at idle the z axis starts to drift
[19:09:03] <cradek> explain exactly what you mean by drift?
[19:09:25] <witnit> index a is not reading correctly on encoder?
[19:09:31] <jp_mill> slowly turn in one direction only.
[19:09:47] <jp_mill> it looks like that but what would cause that?
[19:09:55] <cradek> is the encoder counting?
[19:10:33] <witnit> I would say try using the a/ b/ on the encoder if you have the option and see if it still drifts
[19:10:56] <cradek> troubleshoot first, don't guess
[19:10:59] <jp_mill> the encoder is diff A+B index
[19:11:14] <cradek> is the encoder counting while the axis is drifting slowly?
[19:11:31] <jp_mill> encoder counts viewed from hall count fine when running a prog or jogging
[19:11:36] <witnit> it couldnt be or the pid would correct it right?
[19:11:38] <cradek> is the encoder counting while the axis is drifting slowly?
[19:11:53] <jp_mill> but when left idle they dont seem to move much up or down
[19:12:23] <cradek> so the axis is moving, but the encoder isn't showing the corresponding counts?
[19:12:32] <jp_mill> not really +/- a couple of hundred counts
[19:12:41] <cradek> hundreds of counts is a huge number
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[19:12:48] <cradek> I'd like to see a plot of this happening
[19:13:01] <jp_mill> but my encoder scale is huge
[19:13:10] <witnit> if its moving at all the system should compensate regardless
[19:13:11] <jp_mill> motor is on a 30 :1
[19:13:18] <witnit> unless you have a huge deadband
[19:13:34] <cradek> 30:1 what?
[19:13:35] <witnit> or, f-error maybe
[19:14:20] <cradek> you should see +- 1 count of dither at rest
[19:15:15] <jp_mill> deadband is 3e-7
[19:16:11] <witnit> so your saying when the machine is at rest the encoder is counting and the controller is not compensating?
[19:16:51] <cradek> he has not said what the encoder is doing, except changing by hundreds of counts
[19:17:08] <witnit> because if the encoder is not counting in a rested state the encoder is misreading in one direction
[19:17:09] <cradek> that's why I asked for the plot...
[19:17:24] <witnit> if it is counting and the machine is not compensating it is in your ini file most likelt
[19:17:28] <witnit> IMO
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[19:18:12] <jp_mill> i would not say the encoder is really counting properly at rest. the count do not follow the rotation of the motor
[19:18:50] <cradek> then you have an encoder problem, or wiring problem, or noise problem, or input filter problem
[19:18:58] <cradek> first check that your input jumpers are set to differential mode
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[19:19:09] <jp_mill> checked
[19:19:26] <cradek> just one axis does this?
[19:19:37] <jp_mill> tied the drive encoder common to the 7i77 5V common as well
[19:19:43] <jp_mill> yes only one
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[19:19:53] <cradek> then it's most like a bad encoder or bad wiring
[19:20:10] <cradek> it's hard to say which from the symptoms
[19:20:22] <jp_mill> then why work fine under jogging or program?
[19:20:25] <cradek> if you have a real scope, scoping the signal at the card inputs would be enlightening
[19:20:35] <cradek> I bet you a dollar it's not working fine
[19:20:43] <witnit> if you move the axis .100 clockwise and do counts, then ccw and do counts does each phase read the same?
[19:21:26] <witnit> i think the scope would tell you all you need to know
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[19:22:13] <jp_mill> yeah wish i had one
[19:22:14] <cradek> yes scope each pair with the scope in differential mode, and if they look ok, check phasing
[19:22:18] <witnit> you have one
[19:22:26] <cradek> time to beg/borrow...
[19:22:26] <_methods> halscope baby
[19:22:44] <witnit> you can do all you need with halscope
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[19:22:47] <cradek> halscope isn't going to be too helpful looking for noise or phasing in a super high res setup
[19:22:48] <witnit> in this case
[19:23:49] <witnit> he should be able to rescale it and do testing no?
[19:24:01] <_methods> swap a one out that works good on the other axis
[19:24:02] <witnit> well fro phasing?
[19:24:06] <_methods> see if you get the same
[19:24:06] <witnit> for*
[19:24:44] <cradek> would still like to see a plot of the raw counts. a phasing error is sometimes evident by 4-count jumps in position
[19:25:00] <cradek> sometimes you can actually see the cause of the creep quite easily
[19:25:40] <witnit> you may even try using your voltmeter on all hardware touching your encoder casing, it could be easy as the machine grounding back through the mesa card
[19:27:01] <witnit> happening to me right now, 56 vac backfeeding into my servo amps from the machines on/off button makes all axis drive off in one direction
[19:27:19] <cradek> yikes
[19:27:22] <witnit> wreck my turret lathe last night ;(
[19:28:09] <_methods> plasma and tig machines will make a mess of that too
[19:28:25] <witnit> the ground vibrated off the 3 phase line and now the wiring which apparently was already bad became active
[19:28:37] <_methods> ouch
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[19:44:36] <sabotender> moo
[19:44:51] <jdh> shaun
[19:45:07] <sabotender> hey cradek
[19:46:13] <cradek> um hey
[19:46:54] <sabotender> O_o we have chatted before in the past lawl
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[19:51:52] <sabotender> i'm not sure which cnc router to get now
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[19:58:27] <PCW> jp_mill: measure across the A, /A pins and B,/B pins at the 7I77
[19:58:57] <PCW> (with drive off)
[20:00:48] <PCW> when static they should always read greater than +2V or less than -2V (never closer to 0 than +-2V)
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[20:07:49] <jp_mill> PCW: Seems to be interference with the other drives. If i shut the breakes off on the other two axis the problem goes away
[20:07:59] <jp_mill> Breakers
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[20:09:12] <PCW> are the encoder signals from the drives or directly from the encoders?
[20:09:23] <jp_mill> from the drives
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[20:44:04] <PCW> jp_mill: what version of linuxcnc are you running?
[20:44:25] <jp_mill> 2.5.3
[20:45:05] <PCW> Theres a way to increase the encoder filter time in master
[20:45:59] <jp_mill> I bonded everything seems better now but still does it
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[20:46:35] <jp_mill> and for some reason i can't run the ab drive encoder output to the 7i77 in diff mode
[20:46:54] <jp_mill> only works using single ended
[20:46:57] <PCW> Check with a DVM
[20:47:21] <PCW> sounds like you dont have differential outputs
[20:48:05] <jp_mill> the manual says it's differential and the schematics show diff
[20:49:02] <PCW> I trust a voltmeter m ore
[20:49:46] <jp_mill> i hear you just frustrating i had it working fine on a 7i33
[20:50:19] <PCW> not a whole lot different
[20:50:45] <jp_mill> no that's what i thought
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[20:52:35] <PCW> Something as simple as a pair of back-back LEDs with a common 300 Ohm resistor is a good tester for differential outputs
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[20:53:01] <PCW> one or the other LED should always be on
[20:53:45] <PCW> if they both go out you have a stuck pin or maybe A/B swap
[20:54:11] <jp_mill> well time to get out the breadboard i guess
[20:54:52] <PCW> just a voltmeter will do (and ability to jog the motor shaft around a bit)
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[20:59:42] <jp_mill> turns out i have a scope
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[21:13:11] <PCW> a voltmeter tends to be better as it is floating so you can measure differential voltages easliy
[21:13:52] <Deejay> gn8
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[21:29:49] <skunkworks_> I still don't believe the differential signals are such low level..
[21:30:10] <skunkworks_> when we setup ours - I thought there was something wrong.
[21:30:13] <skunkworks_> ;)
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[21:32:12] <PCW> 2V or > is typical when terminated
[21:33:53] <skunkworks_> pcw: how is the rt_preempt/ethernet on the gigabyte board?
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[21:34:56] <sabotender> moo
[21:34:59] <sabotender> hi all
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[21:37:31] <PCW> 2 weeks 24/7 at 2KHz OK
[21:37:49] <jp_mill> pcw: signals are fine but lots of noise on them when amps are powered up
[21:38:30] <PCW> how much common mode noise?
[21:38:31] <skunkworks_> pcw: nice.
[21:39:26] <PCW> maybe (fingers crossed) 4KHZ will be possible with packet mmap
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[21:39:51] <skunkworks_> sounds promising
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[21:40:08] <skunkworks_> pcw: 12.04?
[21:40:15] <PCW> yes
[21:40:49] <jp_mill> pcw seein spikes around 2V
[21:41:03] <PCW> (probably 14.04 also if the TK/TCL stuff is sorted)
[21:41:30] <skunkworks_> pcw: I think it is.
[21:41:31] <skunkworks_> works here
[21:41:54] <skunkworks_> (sim)
[21:42:04] <PCW> 2V should be fine in differential mode (and hopeless in single ended)
[21:42:23] <PCW> (2V common mode noise to GND)
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[21:44:07] <PCW> receiver common mode range is +12V and -7V max so 2V common mode noise is no problem _for differential_
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[22:27:49] <MrHindsight> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/diy-cnc-router-table-machines/48428-mikes-pipe-cnc.html
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[22:33:20] <PetefromTn_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mrx24jofi0w LOL
[22:33:48] <MrHindsight> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCPXeZz72vM PVCNC LOL
[22:34:28] <MrHindsight> PetefromTn_: did you see the giant cnc made entirely out of pipes earlier?
[22:34:28] <PetefromTn_> Ill bet someone will make one out of pipe cleaners soon.
[22:34:48] <PetefromTn_> nope
[22:35:04] <MrHindsight> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PSG2al1Sus the most absurd design I've ever seen
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[22:36:36] <PetefromTn_> Thats a beaut.
[22:37:31] <_methods> ah man you had to bring it back up
[22:38:41] <MrHindsight> it's hard to believe
[22:38:50] <_methods> the string...........
[22:39:28] <_methods> i had no idea there were so many pipe cnc's out there until today
[22:39:49] <_methods> i'm suprised haas hasn't come out with one yet
[22:40:55] <MrHindsight> http://lumberjocks.com/SPalm/blog/2248 all wood except for the linear bearings, they are pipe and skate bearings
[22:40:57] <_methods> the vf-3(p)
[22:41:36] <MrHindsight> now i get where all the inspiration for all the reprap stuff came from
[22:43:46] <MrHindsight> I was unaware of the root of this silliness
[22:46:13] <mozmck> Hey, that wood one beats the pipe monstrosity all to pieces!
[22:46:34] <_methods> his other cnc?
[22:46:46] <_methods> the plexi/pipe/wood one
[22:46:53] <_methods> and string
[22:46:57] <_methods> don't forget the string
[22:47:09] <mozmck> The lumberjocks link MrHindsight just sent.
[22:47:25] <_methods> oh shiznit how did i miss that
[22:48:15] <MrHindsight> the string is for finding level, like a plumb bob
[22:48:17] <_methods> ah that one is kinda spiffy
[22:48:27] <_methods> i like it
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[22:49:06] <mozmck> Wood is not bad for something like that, shoot, they built airplanes out of wood in the 30's and 40's that are still flying.
[22:49:23] <_methods> well and you can tell that guy actually has some skills
[22:49:25] <MrHindsight> that pipe one should be at side shows and play music while it moves
[22:49:40] <_methods> or at least gives a shit
[22:50:04] <_methods> that pipe lunatic though.......
[22:50:26] <_methods> that guys makin someone put the lotion in the basket
[22:50:49] <tjb1> uh oh, gushh the idiot is giving machine advice in reprap
[22:50:52] <MrHindsight> maybe I'll make one out of cherry for the gantry with mahogany bearings and bubinga for the table
[22:51:05] <_methods> that would be sexy
[22:51:10] <_methods> you could eat dinner on it too
[22:51:26] <MrHindsight> cnc cut
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[22:51:36] <_methods> blend shakes at will
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[22:52:00] <mozmck> Hmm, I have all those woods in my shop.
[22:52:01] <_methods> not everyone has a cnc dinner table
[22:52:11] <MrHindsight> the overflow from reprap has been leaking into here lately
[22:52:21] <_methods> +b
[22:52:30] <mozmck> I think I'd use bubinga bois d'ark for the bearings though.
[22:52:53] <MrHindsight> with purpleheart for accent
[22:53:17] <mozmck> have that too! only problem is it turns brown over time...
[22:53:23] <zeeshan> https://imgur.com/a/aRSsI
[22:53:28] <zeeshan> damn my z axis bracket is big
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[22:53:45] <MrHindsight> needs a UV and oxygen seal
[22:54:07] <_methods> did you weld that?
[22:54:11] <_methods> the weld looks good
[22:54:14] <zeeshan> yea
[22:54:15] <mozmck> wouldn't want to try machining on it either with coolant :)
[22:54:17] <_methods> nice
[22:54:21] <zeeshan> thats not a good weld !
[22:54:29] <zeeshan> =P
[22:54:41] <MrHindsight> very weld indeed
[22:54:49] <_methods> for a block that size
[22:54:55] <_methods> to a smaller thinner piece
[22:55:02] <_methods> i think it's pretty good
[22:55:19] <zeeshan> :] thanks
[22:55:32] <zeeshan> i tried flexing it with all my power
[22:55:35] <zeeshan> (prolly 150lb)
[22:55:41] <zeeshan> and it doesnt registerr on the dial indicator
[22:55:44] <_methods> you're not a welder by trade?
[22:55:47] <zeeshan> 5 tenths
[22:55:47] <zeeshan> no
[22:55:52] <_methods> then that's even better
[22:55:53] <_methods> lol
[22:55:59] <_methods> congrats
[22:56:09] <zeeshan> ive done a lot of car related welding for a long time
[22:56:13] <zeeshan> (side thing)
[22:56:22] <zeeshan> people that modify cars are anal about how the welds look
[22:56:44] <zeeshan> https://imgur.com/a/sYiDZ
[22:56:47] <zeeshan> those are my aluminum welds
[22:56:49] <_methods> yes well it shows
[22:57:26] <MrHindsight> why not a solid block vs just the smaller piece under the nut?
[22:57:28] <zeeshan> compare that wit hthis professional
[22:57:38] <tjb1> MrHindsight: just the idiots who get a printer and think they are now god and can do any type of fabrication
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[22:58:06] <zeeshan> http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/Db6BVMANvW0/maxresdefault.jpg
[22:58:09] <zeeshan> pro welder ^
[22:58:18] <zeeshan> MrHindsight: im not sure what you mean
[22:58:26] <zeeshan> oh
[22:58:33] <zeeshan> you mean why not make a solid block attached to the apron
[22:58:42] <_methods> he's sayin why weld it
[22:58:42] <zeeshan> cause i need to leave room for a U channel on top of the ball screw
[22:58:44] <zeeshan> which will protect it
[22:58:46] <_methods> just make it one piece
[22:58:51] <zeeshan> ohh
[22:58:57] <zeeshan> it's made out of scrap steel i had
[22:59:04] <zeeshan> i only had 3x3 square bar and 1/2 plate
[22:59:10] <zeeshan> nothing really larger than that
[22:59:19] <_methods> when you can weld like that you do whatever you want lol
[22:59:20] <zeeshan> i have lots of round, but no squares :/
[22:59:22] <MrHindsight> I can't see the whole machine, so I'm just wondering
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[23:00:16] <_methods> my welds look like the bottom of a highschool desk
[23:01:05] <zeeshan> https://imgur.com/a/aRSsI
[23:01:09] <zeeshan> check out very last pic i added MrHindsight
[23:01:19] <zeeshan> i tried a whole bunch of different combinations
[23:01:42] <zeeshan> i wanted to get less than 0.001" deflection under 200lb of feed force (Static)
[23:01:48] <zeeshan> which is a crap load of feed force
[23:01:59] <zeeshan> i bet my whole machine will twist at that much force :P
[23:06:59] <MrHindsight> http://imagebin.org/308419
[23:07:17] <zeeshan> ohh
[23:07:18] <zeeshan> gotcha
[23:07:19] <MrHindsight> you use what you have around, but this is what i was asking about
[23:07:22] <zeeshan> thats cause there is a U channel;
[23:07:28] <zeeshan> stationary that goes on top of the ball screw
[23:07:30] <zeeshan> to form a ball screw cover
[23:07:33] <MrHindsight> ah ok
[23:08:26] <_methods> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1939723822/fish-on-wheels
[23:08:40] <MrHindsight> do I want to see this?
[23:08:40] <PetefromTn_> Looks good. Personally I would have tucked it up underneath the apron covering to protect it AND made the sheetmetal cover for the rest of the screw.
[23:09:02] <_methods> hahah
[23:09:06] <_methods> probably not
[23:09:26] <_methods> it would be nice to have a fish that would get me a beer
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[23:09:40] <MrHindsight> well your hands do get tired carrying the tank when you take them for walks
[23:09:47] <_methods> hahahahah
[23:09:48] <_methods> right
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[23:10:09] <mozmck> some people need jobs I think.
[23:10:12] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: many ways to skin a cat!
[23:10:12] <zeeshan> :D
[23:10:27] <zeeshan> i was trying to make use of the already premachined parts on the machine already
[23:10:35] <zeeshan> like the quick change gear box support
[23:10:42] <zeeshan> so i was limited to where the ball screw could be placed
[23:10:48] <zeeshan> trying to do as little work as possible :P
[23:11:12] <PetefromTn_> Understand that sentiment
[23:11:12] <zeeshan> <- very lazy
[23:11:27] <zeeshan> you know what sucks?
[23:11:28] <mozmck> I'm referring to the fish tank on wheels :)
[23:11:30] <zeeshan> not having a dro.
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[23:11:44] <PetefromTn_> When CNC don't NEED a DRO.
[23:11:51] <zeeshan> i had some fun time doing bolt holes on a bolt circle
[23:11:55] <zeeshan> stupid backlash.
[23:11:55] <zeeshan> :P
[23:11:57] <_methods> dial indicator and magbase
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[23:12:11] <zeeshan> _methods: i wish man
[23:12:14] <PetefromTn_> If you approach from the same direction that is not a problem.
[23:12:20] <zeeshan> i WISH i had a 3" long reach indicator
[23:12:25] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: exactly!!
[23:12:28] <_methods> get a 3" indicator
[23:12:33] <_methods> or index
[23:12:37] <_methods> move 1
[23:12:42] <_methods> move your indicator
[23:12:43] <_methods> move 1
[23:12:49] <_methods> rinse wash repeat
[23:12:53] <zeeshan> thats as much work as counting the dial
[23:12:54] <zeeshan> :P
[23:13:01] <zeeshan> and then compensating for back lash
[23:13:39] <zeeshan> i havent used my mill much since i got it
[23:13:48] <zeeshan> so i've been messing with it in terms of feed rates and stuff
[23:13:58] <zeeshan> i was boring a 40mm hole, from 1" predrilled hole
[23:14:18] <PetefromTn_> I think the FSwizard program has a little bolt circle program inside it that will give you dimensions and you can use that to goto the points, if you setup to do each one in one direction it should be easy.
[23:14:18] <zeeshan> took 100 depth of cuts with the boring bar
[23:14:36] <zeeshan> at high speed feed rate (bridgeport clones have S M H for speed selectors, not sure what speeds they represent in ipm)
[23:14:41] <zeeshan> man it hogs steel like crazy
[23:15:08] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: ah cool
[23:15:16] <zeeshan> hopefully i wont be doing too many bolt circles
[23:15:34] <zeeshan> i should just convert the mill to ball screws sicne im going to have to do it at some point eventually
[23:15:49] <zeeshan> but i don't want two machines down together =[
[23:15:57] <zeeshan> i miss my lathe.
[23:16:22] <zeeshan> hey pete check this out
[23:17:02] <zeeshan> https://i.imgur.com/SGc4aVR.jpg
[23:17:03] <zeeshan> only pic i can find
[23:17:08] <zeeshan> but you see the carriage?
[23:17:17] <zeeshan> any idea how i should mount that on the mill
[23:17:26] <sabotender> hiya zeeshan
[23:17:31] <zeeshan> gotta mill out a pocket in it
[23:17:33] <zeeshan> hi!
[23:18:01] <PetefromTn_> Wow it looks Nekid.
[23:18:06] <zeeshan> haha
[23:18:17] <PetefromTn_> you mean the apron?
[23:18:58] <PetefromTn_> I would imagine you could just pop it atop some 123 blocks and clamp it down depending on how you need to mill it.
[23:19:15] <witnit> good welds zeesh :)
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[23:20:29] <sabotender> zeeshan: I spoke with a couple of experinced cnc peeps and the sable is still an option, even without the ballscrews
[23:20:58] <PetefromTn_> Zeesan I took a ride over there to that RX7 tuner shop and spent some time chatting with those guys.
[23:21:08] <zeeshan> sabotender: i see
[23:21:13] <PetefromTn_> They are building some SWEET cars.
[23:21:22] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: damn car people have too much money :P
[23:21:36] <zeeshan> thanks witnit
[23:21:36] <PetefromTn_> one of them is supposed to put down around 800 HP and it was BEAUTIFUL....
[23:22:08] <MrHindsight> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=271471024038 starting at $2k now
[23:22:09] <PetefromTn_> They also had two different Supra's one is heavily built supposed to have around 1k HP.
[23:22:37] <PetefromTn_> I was starting to really drool over that RX7 twin turbo tho it is a sick little car.
[23:22:39] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: are you going to possibly work there?
[23:22:50] <PetefromTn_> LOL funny you mention that.
[23:23:09] <PetefromTn_> I did happen to mention that I own a machining center and a commercial Tig unit.
[23:23:36] <PetefromTn_> They are supposed to call me sometime next week with a project they are working on they want me to machine for them.
[23:23:44] <zeeshan> very cool :D
[23:23:53] <PetefromTn_> Not holding my breath until the phone rings and I have money in hand but it is promising.
[23:23:59] <PetefromTn_> Those guys are REALLY cool over there.
[23:24:10] <zeeshan> car guys have more money
[23:24:15] <zeeshan> :D
[23:24:25] <zeeshan> so i hope they do call u
[23:24:30] <PetefromTn_> It sure would be more fun that the shit I was having to do today.
[23:24:35] <PetefromTn_> me too.
[23:25:44] <PetefromTn_> If we come up with a kickass item for the RX7 I will give you a good deal on one LOL
[23:26:30] <zeeshan> hehe
[23:26:37] <zeeshan> i wonder if they know me
[23:26:47] <zeeshan> i used to make oil filler housings
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[23:26:54] <zeeshan> i sold like 1000 of them on rx7club.com
[23:27:06] <zeeshan> rx7s like to piss oil out the filler tube
[23:27:12] <zeeshan> under high G cornering
[23:27:12] <PetefromTn_> Probably...
[23:27:25] <zeeshan> so you gotta baffle it
[23:27:37] <zeeshan> and its plastic stock
[23:27:39] <zeeshan> so it cracks
[23:27:40] <Tom_itx> we machined a blower intake once
[23:27:47] <PetefromTn_> I gotta admit after checking out those cars over there I was REALLY liking the RX7.
[23:27:55] <zeeshan> yea man, theyre light
[23:28:00] <zeeshan> indepdendnt suspension
[23:28:12] <PetefromTn_> I love the interior
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[23:28:14] <zeeshan> 50/50 left to right and 50/50 front to back weight distribution
[23:28:18] <PetefromTn_> it looks so comfy.
[23:28:38] <zeeshan> timeless car in my opinion
[23:28:50] <zeeshan> mines a 92 and non car people think its a 2010
[23:28:51] <zeeshan> lol
[23:29:00] <PetefromTn_> I am a big Fiero GT fan and have had two of those but after seeing all those RX7's up close and personal I could be swayed.
[23:29:43] <PetefromTn_> They had two of them that had this kinda widebody bolt on hips out back and a sick looking front fascia.
[23:29:46] <PetefromTn_> Carbon wings etc.
[23:29:54] <PetefromTn_> Some kickass looking cars.
[23:30:07] <PetefromTn_> It was like being in a Fast and Furious movie set.
[23:30:12] <PetefromTn_> HEHE
[23:30:13] <zeeshan> haha
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[23:33:21] <zeeshan> http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq201/Marcella_manifolds/IMG_0331.jpg?t=1319600737
[23:33:22] <zeeshan> holy cow
[23:33:30] <zeeshan> was surfing around at professional aluminum tig welders
[23:33:31] <zeeshan> look at that
[23:33:34] <zeeshan> ..
[23:33:37] <zeeshan> thats free handed
[23:33:52] <_methods> yeah there are some real wizards out there
[23:34:05] <_methods> you need to do a lot of crystal and crack before you get that good
[23:34:11] <zeeshan> haha
[23:34:17] <_methods> spend 10 years on the road
[23:34:20] <_methods> in strip bars
[23:34:24] <_methods> oil rigs
[23:34:25] <_methods> lol
[23:34:34] <zeeshan> wow
[23:34:36] <zeeshan> that guy charges
[23:34:40] <zeeshan> 2500$ for each intake manifold
[23:34:53] <XXCoder> heys
[23:34:53] <_methods> crack is expensive
[23:35:20] <XXCoder> magic touch welders
[23:35:52] <zeeshan> im way off on the price..
[23:36:01] <zeeshan> 4500$ for a c5r corvette intake manifold
[23:36:06] <zeeshan> 8 month wait
[23:36:40] <XXCoder> heh is it cheaper to build 5 axis cnc and mill one out?
[23:37:00] <zeeshan> prolly
[23:37:01] <zeeshan> haha
[23:37:06] <zeeshan> billet intake manifold would be cheaper i agree
[23:37:06] <zeeshan> :P
[23:40:06] <zeeshan> back to tramming the mill =/
[23:40:36] <XXCoder> fun
[23:40:46] <zeeshan> ive done the left and right rotation
[23:40:49] <zeeshan> doing the nod now
[23:41:56] <XXCoder> I wonder if theres procure how to configure and tram cncs
[23:42:04] <XXCoder> because I evenually will need to lol
[23:42:55] <zeeshan> use some fancy digital anglometer :P
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[23:54:55] <XXCoder> lol ok
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[23:55:24] <MrHindsight> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-D1gNYPi3A like a tram bam?
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