#linuxcnc | Logs for 2014-03-21

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[02:56:13] <R2E4_> evening
[02:57:00] <R2E4_> pcw_home: you around?
[02:57:23] <pcw_home> sort of
[02:57:27] <R2E4_> lol
[02:57:38] <R2E4_> My Z axis dropped on my jack
[02:58:28] <R2E4_> I enabled it, released the jack it oscilated when I tried to move it. I dropped the P, and it moved. but when I hit E-stop, it dropped to my jack
[02:59:06] <R2E4_> I checked it and it still had 94vdc on it. I think the 100vac arced across contacts, I have no other explanation.
[02:59:37] <GuShH_> ...
[02:59:43] <pcw_home> The brake will store a lot of energy
[03:00:21] <pcw_home> you need acr suppression across the relay contact or you will weld them in a hurry
[03:00:26] <pcw_home> arc
[03:00:39] <R2E4_> IT has a snubber on it. The same one that was in the machine before.
[03:01:07] <R2E4_> but I waited like 5 minutes.
[03:01:11] <pcw_home> what releases the brake?
[03:01:45] <R2E4_> machine is on <= relay
[03:02:44] <pcw_home> Is it a RC snubber?
[03:03:04] <R2E4_> yes, .1uf 200ohms
[03:03:26] <pcw_home> I guess really it should go across the brake
[03:03:51] <R2E4_> It is.
[03:04:34] <R2E4_> Maybe I have polarity backwards, or does it matter?
[03:04:54] <pcw_home> Shouldn't
[03:06:27] <pcw_home> I guess I would disable the Z drive, prop up Z and try turning the brake on/off
[03:06:31] <R2E4_> I was thinking maybe it arced across the relay
[03:07:31] <pcw_home> seems unlikely unless the relay is shot
[03:10:04] <R2E4_> its my machine-is-on relay, everything is starting with it.
[03:10:53] <pcw_home> its not a separate relay?
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[03:22:00] <R2E4_> No.
[03:22:30] <pcw_home> so this is a multipole relay
[03:25:10] <R2E4_> yes, 24vdc 4 pole
[03:25:34] <R2E4_> The 1 inch by 1.5 inch standard relay
[03:26:20] <R2E4_> They were switching it with the same type of relay.
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[03:30:48] <R2E4_> The way it was before, DC was passing through AB relay which when power is on it is energized. Both sides of DC passes through it, then both sides passesthrough a relay contact controlled by the controller, then it passed through what they call pre relay, that has a few things passing through it.
[03:31:07] <R2E4_> I am having "machine-is-on" passing through the pre relay.
[03:31:40] <R2E4_> There is the snubber across the dc just before it leaves the control cabinet to the sol in the motor.
[03:32:10] <pcw_home> The snubber needs to be across the brake itself
[03:32:29] <R2E4_> In the moptor?
[03:32:40] <R2E4_> In the servo?
[03:33:10] <pcw_home> no but across an unbroken (by relay contact) path to the brake
[03:33:41] <pcw_home> otherwise you will destroy your relays
[03:33:43] <R2E4_> IT is where it was when the machine was running. I didnt change anything with it.
[03:34:25] <R2E4_> Should I use a solid state relay?
[03:36:39] <pcw_home> what is the brake wiring?
[03:36:41] <pcw_home> +DC --> relaycontact --> brake1 --> brake2 --> -DC
[03:37:00] <pcw_home> and where is the snubber
[03:39:49] <R2E4_> 100vac = bridge rect=> relay contact(one side of DC) => snubber (across DC)=> brake
[03:41:34] <pcw_home> snubber is across the DC power?
[03:41:43] <R2E4_> yes
[03:42:09] <R2E4_> thats how it was, so I left it.
[03:43:29] <pcw_home> that will not protect the relay (its has to be across the relay contacts or the brake)
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[03:45:08] <R2E4_> You mean physically at the sol forthe brake?
[03:45:43] <R2E4_> cause it is across the brake sol, right before it leaves the cabinet, 6 feet of wire before the mnotor.
[03:46:48] <pcw_home> OK it just needs to be electrically across the brake , not the DC power source)
[03:47:25] <R2E4_> ok iot is.
[03:48:59] <R2E4_> http://www.irmtl.com/cnct/VM40%20WITH%20SEICOS%20M2-MICON16-2.pdf on page 47 of pdf drawing# E2731-10-41-00
[03:49:08] <R2E4_> its a big pdf.
[03:51:09] <pcw_home> Thats going to take too long
[03:51:10] <pcw_home> Like I said I would verify brake operation with the Z drive disabled and axis propped up
[03:51:15] <tjtr33> when you say "I checked it and it still had 94vdc on it." , do you expect at that time for the brake to hold? i think at that time the brake is released.
[03:52:03] <pcw_home> Yes check the relay and wiring carefully
[03:52:32] <pcw_home> and its sleepy time for me...
[03:52:33] <pcw_home> 'Nite
[03:52:36] <R2E4_> no, with 90vdc on it, it should be released.
[03:52:38] <tjtr33> gnite
[03:52:39] <R2E4_> Thanks pcw
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[03:54:07] <tjtr33> ok :) we said the same thing, thats ok. with 90vdc on brake it is released.
[03:54:15] <R2E4_> tjtr33: when I hit e-stop, the relay dropped out but 94vdc was still there.
[03:54:47] <R2E4_> I am thinking it arced across the contacts, I have no other explanation.
[03:55:20] <tjtr33> i understand, and that is wrong, the 90vdc should go away with estop
[03:55:55] <R2E4_> The relay that was proving the 90vdc dropped out when I hit e-stop.
[03:56:15] <R2E4_> That relay is following "machine-is-on"
[03:56:21] <tjtr33> but pcw's idea still is good. see that it is true that with 90v= its free and without it is held ( just jumper clips. no servo power )
[03:56:57] <tjtr33> then move on to the problem of _when_ it should get 90v= and when it shouldnt ( separate the problems )
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[03:57:55] <R2E4_> There is no 90vdc on it now and it is held. I know for a fact when I apply 90vdc, the brake disengages.
[03:58:11] <tjtr33> if the relay opens, the power is off, right? so you can check the contacts with an ohmeter while all power is off and see if the contacts welded
[03:58:24] <R2E4_> I see what your saying.
[03:58:27] <tjtr33> else, there is another path for 90Vdc to get to the brake
[03:59:04] <R2E4_> ok, I'll dothat.
[03:59:09] <R2E4_> tomorrow.
[03:59:35] <R2E4_> They had three switches that all have to be mnet to release the brake.
[04:00:04] <tjtr33> i used to get bendix brand brake problems ( clutch plate style ) and would take out my car jumper cables and battery and force them open just to free up a jammed tool :)
[04:00:06] <R2E4_> AC power on the machine ( removes boith side of 100vac)
[04:00:21] <tjtr33> best o luck, you're close
[04:00:51] <R2E4_> a contact from the control (removes both sides of dc)\
[04:01:04] <tjtr33> i service equipment, i didnt jam the tool ;)
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[04:01:12] <R2E4_> and third is when they turned power on to the control(one side of dc)
[04:01:17] <R2E4_> haha
[04:01:48] <tjtr33> i had a hard time follwing the ladder diagram, kinda scattered over many pages
[04:02:09] <R2E4_> I only have the last relay connected( one side of dc)
[04:02:32] <R2E4_> yeah, it was a bitch to figure out. I am really close though.
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[04:02:53] <tjtr33> if only 1 relay is in circuit now, then the continuity test should tell you a lot
[04:02:58] <R2E4_> I had a jack under it and it dropped 2 ", scaredthe be-jesus out of me.
[04:03:19] <tjtr33> i use timbers,
[04:03:45] <R2E4_> I disconnected the dc power and tested continuity, on and off and the ciurcuit is ok.
[04:04:08] <R2E4_> I used a jack with timber on it in case it slammeddown, I could release the jam.
[04:04:53] <tjtr33> oh, and the snubber does have to be right at the brake itself, the winding of the brake is what stores the energy, just like an old car ignition coil, and when you de-energize the coil, you get a big spark, and that what can pit the contacts, so you need a snubber
[04:07:35] <R2E4_> it has one, the same one the machine had. I didnt change it nopr the location, it is in parralel with the brake electrically.
[04:07:50] <tjtr33> then its good
[04:08:04] <R2E4_> The sol for the brake is in the motor, dont think it will fit.
[04:08:08] <R2E4_> ok
[04:08:19] <R2E4_> I'm so close I can smell it.
[04:08:34] <tjtr33> you dont wanna smell it ;)
[04:08:50] <R2E4_> haha
[04:09:00] <tjtr33> well best o luck, you'll get it
[04:09:17] <R2E4_> I think I will duplicate it exactly as it was with the poldcontrol.
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[04:09:48] <R2E4_> I gotta run. nite. Thanks tjtr33
[04:10:00] <tjtr33> gnite
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[05:00:23] <XXCoder1> whats difference between "milled screw" and "rolled"
[05:01:05] <XXCoder1> milled and rolled thread screws
[05:05:31] <toastydeath> milled screw is done with a comb-shaped cutter
[05:05:53] <XXCoder1> \I mean how accurate they are and such
[05:06:01] <toastydeath> rolled is done with a non-cutting form
[05:06:11] <toastydeath> rolled screws are not super accurate
[05:06:23] <XXCoder1> hmm
[05:06:24] <toastydeath> milled screws can be a variety of accuricies
[05:06:28] <toastydeath> *accuracies
[05:06:38] <XXCoder1> would rolled be good enough for "first cnc"
[05:06:45] <toastydeath> sure
[05:06:58] <toastydeath> my recommendation is that unless you are already a machinist, you do not drool over accuracy
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[05:07:26] <Connor> Linermotionbearing2008 on Ebay sales pretty decent C7 Rolled Ball screws.
[05:07:46] <XXCoder1> yeah I do want good enough machine to make working cnc for fun. then evenually make better cnc by that cnc
[05:07:53] <XXCoder1> and buy upgrades
[05:08:19] <toastydeath> realistically you are not going to be limited by the accuracy of your screws
[05:08:38] <toastydeath> you are going to be limited by the geometric alignment of your guide surfaces and your measurement equipment
[05:09:02] <toastydeath> those errors are going to absolutely dwarf whatever error exists in your screw
[05:09:29] <XXCoder1> http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-ballscrews-ballscrew-3set-SBR-rails-3sets-BK-BF12-3-couplings-Promotions-/251449603748?pt=BI_Heavy_Equipment_Parts&hash=item3a8b9076a4 not bad
[05:09:40] <toastydeath> consider that if your machine is off by .005" every inch
[05:09:45] <toastydeath> and you make ALL your parts on this machine
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[05:10:00] <toastydeath> it's very likely that they'll fit together quite well
[05:10:19] <toastydeath> because all the holes you drill and shapes you cut will be off by the same amount
[05:11:21] <toastydeath> also, similarly, the linear guides don't matter much either, because the surface you mount them to is what give them the vast majority of their accuracy
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[05:11:24] <XXCoder1> guess so
[05:11:46] <toastydeath> this isn't a "guess so" type thing, this is an established principle of manufacturing
[05:12:19] <XXCoder1> lol yeah just not machinist so if it works it works fine for me
[05:12:31] <toastydeath> if you bolt a linear way that's capable of a few millionths of an inch to a surface that's wavy, the rail will take on that waviness
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[05:13:06] <XXCoder1> good to know.
[05:13:54] <XXCoder1> guess thats why people usually use mdf (think named it correctly) wood as framework, its quite flat
[05:13:58] <XXCoder1> and pretty strong
[05:14:22] <toastydeath> that's just the thing
[05:14:27] <toastydeath> it's not flat at all, from a machining perspective
[05:14:38] <toastydeath> it's just that people have really really poor understanding of measurement
[05:14:52] <toastydeath> and so they don't realize how bad their machine is, and it doesn't matter anyway
[05:15:17] <XXCoder1> I bet 8020 machines is pretty good, better than most wood machines anyway
[05:15:51] <XXCoder1> both probably pales in accuracy compared to true manfactoring cncs
[05:16:21] <toastydeath> yeah, even an old beat up cnc will outperform anything homemade by several orders of magnetude in both speed and accuracy
[05:17:08] <toastydeath> can take finish passes that are deeper than homebrew machines can take on roughing passes
[05:17:10] <XXCoder1> I don't think I am not that concerned, if it works well enough for me it works
[05:17:19] <toastydeath> yeah, that's the attitude to have
[05:17:28] <toastydeath> don't chase numbers, chase results
[05:17:43] <XXCoder1> I do want 8020 based design, its too high end atm till I get better work and experence
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[06:25:48] <WalterN> these guys are making laser optical things out of diamond... http://www.iiviinfrared.com/index.html
[06:28:59] <WalterN> http://www.iiviinfrared.com/pdfs/II-VI_diamond_2010-01.pdf
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[07:00:30] <Loetmichel> mornin'
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[07:56:24] <Deejay> moin
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[10:04:44] <Swapper_> anyone running gmoccapy ? i have a "bug" wher the tool area shows a long row of numbers.
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[10:44:28] <jthornton> best to report that on the forum
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[10:47:47] <Swapper_> ok will do
[10:48:05] <aer0s> hello
[10:49:25] <Swapper_> hi
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[11:00:58] <aer0s> what types of machines is linuxcnc used on?
[11:01:11] <Loetmichel> aer0s: any
[11:01:27] <Loetmichel> from little ones selfbuild to big industrial amchines
[11:02:21] <aer0s> I'm searching for a small metal mill, is that "works best"?
[11:03:29] <Loetmichel> if you ask me: yes
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[11:03:47] <Loetmichel> the other producs are less feature.-rich and less configurable ;-)
[11:03:57] <Loetmichel> (and have the occasional hiccup)
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[11:06:29] <aer0s> do you have a recommendation for a small metal mill that uses linuxcnc?
[11:06:54] <Loetmichel> aer0s: any one and convert it yourself
[11:07:06] <Loetmichel> off the shelve cnc mills are much to expensive
[11:08:27] <aer0s> you mean like, add the stepper motors myself?
[11:08:32] <aer0s> on a manual mill?
[11:09:07] <Loetmichel> i would buy something like this: http://www.dittmar-werkzeuge.de/Optimum-Bohr-Fraesmaschine-OPTI-BF20-Vario-850W-230V.html?32&gclid=CP68use-o70CFdHLtAodqQMAeQ
[11:10:33] <Loetmichel> and converti it using this: http://www.ebay.de/itm/Cnc-Set-3-Achsen-Tb6560-Steuerung-3-X-Motor-1-26Nm-2-8A-Netzteil-24V-10A-/360880985859?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_77&hash=item54062ed703
[11:10:44] <Loetmichel> and a PC /some small pats of course)
[11:11:09] <Loetmichel> aers: right
[11:17:57] <skunkworks> Loetmichel: finally got a change to look at the terco.. looks like a nice little machine http://electronicsam.com/images/emco/terco.JPG
[11:19:05] <skunkworks> the steppers are 8 wire - we re-wired one from unipolar to bipolar and hooked it up to one of the parker drives.
[11:19:25] <skunkworks> more than enough torque for the application
[11:19:45] <skunkworks> no ball screws - but it does have split nuts..
[11:21:06] <aer0s> what about this one? http://www.siegind.com/products_detail/&productId=4b842b88-4ae8-45aa-8fca-3e436a5e2cd7.html
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[11:23:14] <skunkworks> lots of people convert the x1-x3 style mills - take a look on cnczone.com
[11:23:44] <skunkworks> if you have the room - I would buy a cnc with a broken control... :)
[11:24:25] <skunkworks> then you already have the cnc stuff... (ball screws, wiring, coolant control)
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[11:31:12] <jthornton> skunkworks, your having too much fun
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[11:33:12] <skunkworks> jthornton: keeps me out of trouble..
[11:33:14] <skunkworks> ;)
[11:33:43] <jthornton> lol
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[12:11:37] <Loetmichel> s1dev: nice litte mill ;-)
[12:11:40] <Loetmichel> skunkworks
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[12:22:23] <skunkworks> it came out of a school - didn't get the electronics but it sounds like it was pretty huge
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[12:41:31] <R2E4> mornin!!
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[12:43:56] <R2E4> A singing servo means it needs to be tuned?
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[12:51:39] <R2E4> I put a jack and wood under my Z I enabled the drive, moved it a bit, it jumped, so i turned down the P to 50 and restarted and after I tried it again, I hit e-stop and the Z dropped 2" onto the wood.
[12:54:20] <eric_u_cnc1> do you have any I?
[12:55:02] <R2E4> no, I and D are at zero for the moment. its at
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[12:55:38] <R2E4> P = 100 I = 0 D = 0 ,
[12:55:50] <R2E4> HAvn't done any tuning yet
[12:56:08] <R2E4> I dropped the P to 50 when the axis was jumping.
[12:56:09] <eric_u_cnc1> I guess your only choice is too much P then
[12:56:38] <R2E4> I'm not worried about that yet, trying to get the brake working properly.
[12:57:16] <eric_u_cnc1> all I saw was the question about singing servos
[12:57:28] <skunkworks> energize the brake manually and see if it is engaging/disengauging?
[12:57:47] <eric_u_cnc1> was the brake designed for the load?
[12:58:10] <R2E4> http://www.irmtl.com/vm40/Z_brk_sch.pdf
[12:58:29] <R2E4> oh it is engaging, it dropped.
[12:58:35] <R2E4> I can hear the solenoid
[12:58:44] <R2E4> and it dropped
[12:58:54] <skunkworks> why is it taking so long to come back on?
[12:58:56] <eric_u_cnc1> shouldn't it be braking in estop?
[12:59:46] <R2E4> I hit e-stop, the relay dropped out but residual or contact arcing occurred. Held it engaged
[13:00:03] <R2E4> Will trouble shoot it when I get out of work.
[13:03:43] <R2E4> I only had the PRE contacts wired in as shown in the pdf.
[13:05:00] <R2E4> AB is when power is applied to machine, and the DR-3 is from the old control. The PRE contact is when you physically turn on the opld copntrol.
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[13:42:28] <MattyMatt> evil hack idea. lexus wheel bearings have encoders built in http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-NEW-Rear-03-09-Lexus-Toyota-Wheel-Hub-Bearing-Assemblies-w-ABS-Encoder-/150974045064
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[13:43:00] <MattyMatt> pair of them to make a spindle :)
[13:43:55] <rodfrey> Hello! Does anybody have an opinion on the best way to implement a rack-style toolchanger on a router? Info on the wiki seems obsolete, and my google-fu is failing me.
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[13:44:51] <MattyMatt> with the Z axis to lift the tools in and out of the rack?
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[13:45:48] <MattyMatt> what you're most in need of is an auto drawbar, usually pneumatic
[13:45:49] <rodfrey> Yes, I have a spindle with a pneumatic release (claw type, ISO20).
[13:45:57] <MattyMatt> cool
[13:46:38] <rodfrey> Before I Saw The Light I did this on Mach3 with an M6 macro that issued Gcode to move to position, then communicated with a PLC to run the pdb.
[13:46:58] <rodfrey> But I've just moved to linuxcnc and I'm not sure what the best way to approach this is.
[13:47:06] <skunkworks> rodfrey: look at remapping http://linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/remap/structure.html
[13:47:07] <rodfrey> I read that tool changes are in the iocontrol component
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[13:47:14] <rodfrey> but then I read that the iocomponent is obsolete.
[13:47:22] <rodfrey> Thanks, skunkworks, I'll look now!
[13:47:25] <skunkworks> you have to use the development version of linuxcnc
[13:47:31] <rodfrey> oh! that sounds fun.
[13:47:44] <skunkworks> but there are some config examples
[13:48:03] <tjtr33> MrSunshine, you posted that Heeks had new stock removal simulator. Do you know when that feature became available?
[13:48:33] <rodfrey> OK so I guess that I'm not crazy and there isn't really an out-of-the-box way to do it? that's fine, I just don't want to re-invent the wheel.
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[13:49:59] <skunkworks> well - there are some sample configs to get you close. there are a few (I think Connor) has been using it
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[13:50:20] <rodfrey> Cool! Thanks for the trailhead, I'll get reading.
[13:50:26] <tjtr33> look at a remap example, its not that difficult. it just is a scripted substitution for a G or M code ( its just a text file )
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[13:54:28] <rodfrey> Another newb question: is the rs274ngc component (is it a component?) in the current linuxcnc the same as can be found at http://code.google.com/p/rs274ngc, or it substantially different?
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[13:55:49] <rodfrey> urk. Chapter 20: Changes from RS274/NGC
[13:55:49] <rodfrey> . RTFM.
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[14:16:59] <archivist_herron> MattyMatt, why just toymota, all sorts available at the scrap yards
[14:20:29] <pcw_home> I though it was ToyAuto
[14:21:23] <archivist_herron> :)
[14:21:41] <R2E4> pcw_home: this is a small version pdf of the schematics. only the 4 relative pages. http://irmtl.com/vm40/Z_brk_sch.pdf
[14:22:35] <R2E4> Anyone have access to Fanuc manuals? B-53425E in particular?
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[14:31:33] <pcw_home> for $35, you can :-)
[14:31:35] <pcw_home> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fanuc-System-AC-Spindle-Servo-Unit-B-53425E-02-Maitnenance-Manual-Year-1981-/171156458539?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27d9b84c2b
[14:33:08] <MattyMatt> archivist_herron, cars with ABS don't end up in the scrapyard, allegedly :)
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[14:41:46] <nnnn> hey has anyone ever used lcnc with a scara robot arm
[14:44:25] <JT-Shop> yes, look on the wiki for examples
[14:46:04] <pcw_home> Hey I got a aiA16000 encoder from Ebay. that should be fun
[14:46:55] <CaptHindsight> 44 teeth is the most common for ABS rings, 88 counts per rev
[14:47:44] <MattyMatt> single bit? no quadrature
[14:47:49] <MattyMatt> boring
[14:48:16] <MattyMatt> I guess you generally know which way your spindle's going tho
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[14:49:38] <MattyMatt> but I was just wondering if they'd be any good for a leadscrew
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[14:51:08] <CaptHindsight> those rear hubs are just bolt on, bearing preload is set when the bearing is made
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[14:51:27] <archivist_herron> MattyMatt, must be plenty of mundanos there
[14:51:56] <MattyMatt> there's one parked outside :) the owner would squeal
[14:52:07] <archivist_herron> get the sensor from the left as well as the right
[14:52:35] <archivist_herron> to make up a quadrature pair off the one ring
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[14:52:46] <MattyMatt> ah right, with both bearings, they could be turned for quadrature
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[15:04:49] <CaptHindsight> auto ABS sensors are expensive new, but you can buy low cost hall sensors on ebay, digikey, mouser etc
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[15:14:05] <CaptHindsight> I found this great 12" wide belt sander, but I can't find 12" x 80" belts anywhere
[15:16:02] <MattyMatt> make up a canvas&velcro belt and use 3 pieces of 4"-on-a-roll
[15:16:44] <MattyMatt> you could have 3 grades on simultaneously for small stuff :)
[15:17:57] <CaptHindsight> why didn't anyone think of putting multiple nozzles on FDM just like inkjet?
[15:18:17] <MattyMatt> FDM are vector, not raster
[15:18:36] <CaptHindsight> doesn't have to be vector
[15:19:06] <MattyMatt> it does really. you can't turn the flow on and off quickly enough
[15:19:44] <MattyMatt> it's like squeezing toothpaste
[15:19:49] <CaptHindsight> not with those toy extruders
[15:21:07] <MattyMatt> mm 24 wire mig printer
[15:22:48] <CaptHindsight> I print with high viscosity fluids and pasts all the time
[15:23:12] <CaptHindsight> pastes even
[15:23:14] <MattyMatt> you need more axis for a mig printer, because you can't strike an arc in mid air
[15:23:36] <MattyMatt> so no 24 wire raster scanning there
[15:24:59] <MattyMatt> you could use metal powder as support and feed material, and just have 24 tungsten electrodes. SLS with arcs
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[15:27:32] <MattyMatt> you could use cold paste extruders in a row, but with a hot dribbling FDM nozzle, you are better off with a constant flow rate, for sure. I dunno if you could improve the reprap designs
[15:29:59] <CaptHindsight> MattyMatt: you could improve the design if you'd avoid that channel for a while :)
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[15:32:21] <jdh> http://wilmington.craigslist.org/mob/4384724744.html
[15:32:24] <jdh> any idea what that is?
[15:32:37] <rodfrey> Learning how to remap... the documentation refers to stdglue.py, but it's not included with the current master. I can find a copy, but is it obsolete?
[15:32:56] <_methods> boring mill?
[15:33:00] <_methods> hard to tell from those pics
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[15:35:15] <_methods> long bed whatever it wasa
[15:35:25] <_methods> maybe was a lathe bed
[15:36:45] <_methods> i've seen some of those 5-axis routers with gantry like that
[15:38:10] <CaptHindsight> I see the long rusty bearing rails but not the screw
[15:38:48] <CaptHindsight> maybe in the 3rd pic from the left
[15:38:59] <_methods> it's in the 3rd pic
[15:39:03] <CaptHindsight> http://images.craigslist.org/00d0d_kjGViMl0t3Z_600x450.jpg
[15:39:34] <jdh> too big for me whate4ver it is. Just curious
[15:39:48] <_methods> well it looks light duty
[15:39:51] <_methods> for it's size
[15:40:01] <_methods> i'm thinking router
[15:40:15] <_methods> welded tubing
[15:40:17] <_methods> cheap
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[15:42:00] <_methods> probably worth 300 in scrap
[15:42:04] <_methods> maybe a bit more
[15:42:17] <_methods> sell the ball on ebay
[15:42:25] <_methods> and clean up the rails
[15:42:30] <_methods> and sell them on ebay too
[15:42:35] <_methods> maybe break even at $800
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[15:49:18] <rodfrey> Is there a mechanism (or is it welcomed) for me to update documentation as I learn lcnc? I can't find source for http://linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/remap/structure.html in the git repo, so that's probably not the mechanism?
[15:50:49] <skunkworks> I don't know much about editing docs.. There might be something on the wiki. JT-Shop , jthornton_ does a lot of editing.. He could probably answer some questioisn
[15:51:02] <skunkworks> when he is available
[15:51:35] <archivist_herron> and goferit
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[15:53:14] <rodfrey> OK. I just know there is so many docs it must be hard to keep on top of stuff. And annoying if somebody just points out obsolete info instead of just fixing it. :)
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[15:54:49] <CaptHindsight> rodfrey: your input would be of benefit to those new to Linuxcnc, often docs written by those with years of experience skip over steps
[16:01:30] <JT-Shop_> rodfrey, the html docs are built from text files via asciidoc
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[16:02:19] <JT-Shop> so in the git repository you will only find structure.txt
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[16:04:10] <rodfrey> ah, I see that now that I'm looking at the README in docs
[16:04:11] <rodfrey> thanks
[16:04:15] <rodfrey> That makes sense.
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[16:07:19] <Zaaarin> Hi guys, I've been working hard to make an "adaptor plate" for my solar steampunk gearbox.
[16:07:19] <Zaaarin> This is the scrap plate I started out with: http://i.imgur.com/IH2lNyN.jpg ,
[16:07:20] <Zaaarin> This is what that same plate now looks like after a tonne of drilling, routing and grinding, in the end I discovered the best way to cut the middle bit out was to use "slanted" angle grinding with a zirconium cutter disc.
[16:07:20] <Zaaarin> This is it all assembled in rotory gearbox configuration: http://i.imgur.com/LsSY5si.jpg , and this is it top down to prove the core is totally hollow and I wasn't cheating http://i.imgur.com/mx8Jway.jpg
[16:07:20] <Zaaarin> My next question is this: how do I drill the 12mm holes into the "adaptor plate" so they are perfectly aligned with the big flywheel gear?
[16:09:58] <jdh> carefully?
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[16:11:01] <CaptHindsight> before you weld them together drill er eh.... never mind
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[16:12:46] <Zaaarin> what I mean is if I pilot hole any of those holes with my 3mm hss, won't by the time I go 5mm, 7mm, 8mm, 9mm, 10m, 11mm, 12mm the holes be offcentre?
[16:14:01] <CaptHindsight> how well aligned do you want them? How are you measuring?
[16:14:46] <CaptHindsight> you could work you way up and stop when they are close and finish with a file
[16:15:15] <Zaaarin> I tested the gear on the tables with my little mod 3 plastic gear the two cirlces are perfectlyish aligned went round and round it's not elliptical very much
[16:15:41] <CaptHindsight> off by <1mm?
[16:16:13] <Zaaarin> yeah, because I drilled a pilot hole, and used the router to "guide" where the circles should be to start off with
[16:16:19] <CaptHindsight> what are the 12mm holes for? bolts?
[16:17:12] <Zaaarin> Grinding by hand wasn't too hard once I had a few hundred tiny holes drilled trhough, it'd have been great if I could have just drilled it out but when two drilled holes overlapped the drillpress bent sideways and kept jamming up so I was like "sod it time for the angle grinder mweheheeh"
[16:17:26] <Zaaarin> Yeah bolts with irrevocable nuts
[16:17:37] <CaptHindsight> yeah, so you went that route
[16:17:38] <Zaaarin> so once its on there's no way of getting the bolts off without cutting them off
[16:18:41] <Zaaarin> I discovered the by using the angle grinder at a really shallow angle like like ......=========''''''' it was great for getting the hole nice and circular
[16:18:52] <Zaaarin> just covered the tip of the grinder over the drill holes
[16:19:07] <CaptHindsight> if you have some play with the bolts in the holes you could align it first with hex nuts, then replace each nut one by one after
[16:20:30] <Zaaarin> one problem with that CaptHindsight is that the bolt will be lower than the surface of the gear/adaptor plate and then when I drill press the next hole it'll be off centre like ':'''''''==========
[16:20:45] <Zaaarin> you see what I mean?
[16:21:25] <CaptHindsight> have a drawing?
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[16:24:58] <Zaaarin> Got better than that a 3d model
[16:25:31] <Zaaarin> wanted to cnc it but my puny dremel wouldn't handle it
[16:25:43] <Zaaarin> need a new machine me thinks
[16:25:53] <Zaaarin> I'd LOVE a CNC that mills steel
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[16:38:13] <Connor> skunkworks: I have a rack stile tool changer working in simulator using remap.. I think it still works... that was over a year ago.. I don't have it working on a live machine yet.
[16:45:45] <rodfrey> skunkworks: I'm not sure if the [PYTHON]APPEND in the .ini is working. When I start linuxcnc my toplevel.py is found but "import remap" fails with "no module named remap".
[16:46:10] <rodfrey> there's a remap.py in the same directory as toplevel.py that imports stdglue.py
[16:46:55] <rodfrey> Any advice on troubleshooting?
[16:47:27] <jdh> no clue on this specific, but do you have a PYTHONPATH?
[16:47:29] <rodfrey> when I do "python toplevel.py" it loads the modules fine (although it obviously can't find emccanon, etc)
[16:47:52] <CaptHindsight> http://www.3ders.org/articles/20140320-an-analysis-of-patenting-activity-around-3d-printing-from-1990-current.html
[16:48:09] <rodfrey> Yes, it's set to linuxcnc-dev/lib/python
[16:48:20] <jdh> is taht where remap.py is?
[16:48:28] <rodfrey> I understood that the .ini file APPEND line was to put my config's python path onto the end of that?
[16:48:50] <jdh> dunno. Seems likely.
[16:48:58] <rodfrey> I guess I can test that by manually changing PYTHONPATH. Thanks, good idea.
[16:49:20] <jdh> export PYTHONPATH=$PYTHONPATH;/your/config/dir perhaps
[16:51:23] <jdh> that should be a colon
[16:51:43] <rodfrey> yeah
[16:52:00] <rodfrey> Yeah, that worked, so I guess APPEND doesn't do what I think it does.
[16:53:11] <Connor> No.
[16:53:24] <Connor> that's to append the remap directories..
[16:53:36] <Connor> [PYTHON]
[16:53:36] <Connor> # where to find Python code
[16:53:37] <Connor> # code specific for this configuration
[16:53:37] <Connor> PATH_PREPEND=./python
[16:53:37] <Connor> # generic support code
[16:53:37] <Connor> PATH_APPEND=../python-stdglue
[16:53:58] <rodfrey> Connor: Thanks!
[16:54:22] <Connor> I would suggest gettnig the -sim version
[16:54:34] <Connor> and looking at the rack-toolchange sample config.
[16:55:00] <Connor> That's what I used to base mine off of..
[16:55:06] <rodfrey> That's a good idea. I was just working my way through the Extending Linuxcnc docs trying to follow along.
[16:55:14] <Connor> and it's a 6 tool changer.. only ever used in simulator though, never in production
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[16:55:57] <Connor> sometimes it's easier to start with a working example and backwards-engineer it than build from scratch.
[16:57:06] <Connor> to be honest, the rack version looks to only use O based ngc files.. no python..
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[17:17:56] <sabotender> hey Connor!
[17:19:03] <sabotender> okay so I was speaking to an experienced CNC gentleman and he assurred me that I do *NOT* need a router as large as the one I was going to get. And said that a smaller one would definitely suffice. Smaller than I even considered myself. Well, it would definitely save me a bit of money but, still
[17:19:56] <Connor> as big as which one?
[17:23:18] <sabotender> oh the 6040
[17:24:21] <sabotender> Connor: so I will probably be getting a 3020, and then upgrading the spindle and steppers in time
[17:25:23] <Connor> Well. I always go with the saying... get a little more than what you think you need, because, you'll want bigger in the end.
[17:25:42] <Connor> I was going to do a Mini-mill, but decided to go with the G0704.. I'm glade I did.
[17:26:04] <Connor> I wish I had made my Router 24 x 18 instead of 18 x 12
[17:26:33] <sabotender> right, but as I only have interest in milling small pcbs and the chasis for these and small mechanical parts, there's no reason for me to get a larger one
[17:26:36] <CaptHindsight> sabotender: which brand 3020?
[17:26:55] <sabotender> and he had me think about it; even the larger things I want to make are composed of SMALL parts
[17:27:00] <sabotender> so, well...there you have it
[17:28:06] <sabotender> CaptHindsight: that is a very good question. I am not sure, but that was the one he told me that would suit me just fine. And since he has routers and mills of various sizes in his workshop; I will take his recommendations to heart.
[17:28:24] <CaptHindsight> those Chinese router are made poorly, you need to spend a bit of time reworking them to get them accurate
[17:28:43] <Connor> they have 3020 and and 3040
[17:28:50] <sabotender> CaptHindsight: what do you mean by 'reworking'
[17:28:59] <CaptHindsight> they don't seem to care about mounting the ballscrews properly
[17:29:06] <sabotender> like disassembling and aligning?
[17:29:25] <CaptHindsight> and properly mounting the ballscrews
[17:29:54] <sabotender> ah, well I am sure I can manage that, with proper instruction
[17:29:58] <CaptHindsight> http://imagebin.org/300638
[17:30:25] <CaptHindsight> the mounting hold for the bearing is 20mm ID and the bearing is 19mm OD
[17:30:45] <CaptHindsight> the only preload on the bearings is the tension from the flex coupling
[17:31:33] <CaptHindsight> you can shove on any axis and measure the amount of play with a ruler
[17:32:04] <sabotender> ah I see
[17:32:21] <CaptHindsight> the accuracy specs are a blatant lie if it's based on actual cutting
[17:32:44] <sabotender> so what would one need to do to resolve this issue?
[17:32:45] <CaptHindsight> under no load you might get the published specs
[17:33:09] <Einar> In the picture it looks like there is no bearing at the motor end? There should be a double angular bearing.
[17:33:32] <Einar> At the other end the bearing should be floating.
[17:34:05] <CaptHindsight> Einar: there is a single sealed angular bearing on the ballscrew side of that mount
[17:34:42] <Einar> Single angular? So it will take force one way only.
[17:34:43] <CaptHindsight> the mount on the right is where the flex coupling is
[17:35:06] <CaptHindsight> it's sealed, I only have a vague spec
[17:35:35] <CaptHindsight> I haven't taken it apart yet, for all I know it's a sealed ball bearing, not even deep groove
[17:36:02] <CaptHindsight> NSK Z0089
[17:36:11] <sabotender> CaptHindsight: so to resolve that error and flex, does it need new ballscrews?
[17:36:49] <CaptHindsight> the ballscrews are ok, they just need a proper mounting bearing design
[17:37:24] <sabotender> blargh, so the entire design is flawed
[17:37:39] <CaptHindsight> yes, too many corners cut
[17:38:03] <CaptHindsight> but for the same material cost it could be a good design
[17:38:12] <sabotender> ok...which version of that model would you recommend?
[17:38:17] <CaptHindsight> they just don't care
[17:38:33] <CaptHindsight> I haven't found one yet that I didn't have to rework
[17:39:19] <sabotender> I am still not entirely sure what you mean by reworking. Is this something I can do with simple tools?
[17:39:48] <CaptHindsight> simple mill and lathe
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[17:39:58] <sabotender> that is not simple at all
[17:40:09] <sabotender> well, I guess I will just take what I can get, eh
[17:40:33] <CaptHindsight> http://imagebin.org/299770
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[17:40:48] <CaptHindsight> http://imagebin.org/299769
[17:41:03] <CaptHindsight> http://imagebin.org/299771
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[17:41:50] <CaptHindsight> out of the box, everything is dirty, scratched, any fastener that isn't SS is rusty...
[17:42:07] <CaptHindsight> it's like buying used
[17:42:09] <sabotender> what am I supposed to be looking at, besides the router? ahhh
[17:42:41] <sabotender> so it would need to be oiled and cleaned up
[17:42:46] <CaptHindsight> only the t-slot bed is anodized
[17:43:04] <pcw_home> they are aged outside for stress relief
[17:43:13] <sabotender> lol
[17:43:15] <CaptHindsight> and added flavor
[17:43:17] <sabotender> nice
[17:43:28] <archivist> do I spy random nuts used as spacers for the stepper motor mount
[17:43:36] <sabotender> so that is the quality that I can expct to get?
[17:43:41] <CaptHindsight> yes random
[17:44:09] <CaptHindsight> some parts were cut by a roughing end mill
[17:44:11] <sabotender> oh random quality
[17:44:28] <CaptHindsight> random size nuts and washers for motor spacers
[17:45:33] <CaptHindsight> 1/4 of the set screws holding the bearings are stripped
[17:45:54] <sabotender> CaptHindsight: you mustve received a bad batch
[17:45:56] <sabotender> lol
[17:46:00] <CaptHindsight> or the key used to tighten it is broken in the socket
[17:46:30] <CaptHindsight> they are all like this
[17:47:07] <CaptHindsight> the people that buy them don't know any better or don't care, they only value cheap
[17:47:34] <archivist> "don't know any better" is probably the main reason
[17:48:11] <CaptHindsight> I'm actually surprised by the SS fasteners
[17:48:31] <CaptHindsight> only a few are not coated or red oxide treated
[17:48:58] <archivist> good enough for working to a chalk mark
[17:50:00] <sabotender> CaptHindsight: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=na9-USi_hZQ
[17:50:04] <CaptHindsight> http://imagebin.org/299771 the opening below the table in the center is where the ballscew bearing sits, you can grab the screw and move 1mm
[17:50:09] <sabotender> seems pretty good to me
[17:50:29] <R2E4> IS solid state relays good for DC?
[17:52:04] <pcw_home> There are SSRs that are DC rated but you typically need a flyback diode on inductive loads
[17:52:41] <R2E4> I got some caps and resistors, going to try some differnet snubbers tonight.
[17:52:43] <pcw_home> Normal SSRs are AC only (done with SCRS or TRIACs so will never turn off with DC)
[17:53:20] <R2E4> Will cut both legs of the dc also.
[17:54:13] <pcw_home> I would make sure the suppressor across the brake itself is intact
[17:54:23] <R2E4> pcw_home: Did you see that schematic? It is really small, I extracted just the two or three pages.
[17:54:44] <R2E4> http://irmtl.com/vm40/Z_brk_sch.pdf
[17:55:10] <pcw_home> I found it pretty difficult to interpret
[17:55:16] <R2E4> ITs an rc snubber expoxied, dont have access to the components.
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[17:56:25] <nspielbe> hello
[17:56:28] <pcw_home> remember if you break the DC with multiple contacts you either
[17:56:29] <pcw_home> need a snubber across _every contact pair_ or across the brake
[17:56:48] <nspielbe> @pcw any ideas of how to find encoder ticks to angular or linear motion ratio
[17:57:20] <seltecc> suche den besten weg zur erstellung von cnc pfaden
[17:58:02] <seltecc> habe probleme mit der erstellung von ngc daten....
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[17:58:04] <IchGuckLive> hi all
[17:58:15] <seltecc> hi
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[17:58:56] <R2E4> Thats an easy schematic. just a bridge, contacts snubber and solenoid
[17:59:12] einar__ is now known as EinarLathe
[17:59:46] <R2E4> someone told me the sol could be old and drawing more current than it should causing these issues.
[17:59:46] <pcw_home> nspielbe: need encoder counts/turn and leadscrew pitch
[17:59:49] <IchGuckLive> hi seltecc are you new here to the CNC
[17:59:56] <seltecc> what is the best intreractiv way to generate ngc data...
[17:59:59] <seltecc> yepp
[18:00:15] <IchGuckLive> hi welcom seltecc im in germany
[18:00:19] <nspielbe> its on a robot arm, and idk what counts per turn there are or how to accurately measure or calibrate that?
[18:00:40] <seltecc> why? did I miss some formalities...
[18:00:47] <seltecc> hallo
[18:00:55] <IchGuckLive> seltecc: what ngc code for mill pcb lathe 3D slicer or ..
[18:01:16] <seltecc> sowohl als auch...
[18:01:32] <IchGuckLive> klick mal auf meinen namen bitte
[18:02:41] <nspielbe> pcw: its on a robot arm if that helps
[18:03:27] <s1dev> Loetmichel: what mill?
[18:03:58] -!- Till_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
[18:04:19] <Loetmichel> the one you showed me earlier
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[18:06:42] <pcw_home> nspielbe: is it a quadrature encoder? (robots often use absolute encoders instead)
[18:07:56] <pcw_home> (well big fancy robot arms do anyways)
[18:07:58] <nspielbe> yeah its quad
[18:08:31] <pcw_home> on the motor?
[18:08:43] <pcw_home> (or joint)
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[18:13:09] <nspielbe> one the motor
[18:13:51] <sabotender> why did he vanish when I tried to show him a decent 3020? I still don't believe they are ALL of shoddy workmanship. :-P
[18:14:09] <sabotender> Connor: did you see the video?
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[18:28:08] <nspielbe> the motors are really close the joint
[18:28:12] <nspielbe> except its a scara robot
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[18:39:14] <Einar> When cutting threads the start of the thread is a lot coarser than the rest. If I run with really slow RPM the fault is over a shorter distance. Is this just how the threading code works? And I have to run veeery slow?
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[18:43:12] <Einar> My thought was that it is the PID that is not enough damped. But then the too corse thread would be followed by too fine pitch as the PID corrects itself. I can't see that. Am I thinking wrong here?
[18:43:34] <pcw_home> nspielbe: If the robot specifications are not available sometimes you can guess encoder counts by the markings on the encoder
[18:43:36] <pcw_home> or googling the encoders PN That and counting gear teeth (if possible) will get the exact scaling. Otherwise you will have to
[18:43:37] <pcw_home> calibrate by trial end error
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[18:44:18] <pcw_home> You can easily check by plotting ferror
[18:46:05] <Einar> I'll try that.
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[18:51:32] <pcw_home> I dont think this is a common threading issue
[18:51:49] <pcw_home> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7V57_7H9zw
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[18:54:10] <sabotender> CaptHindsight: i will probably get a panther 210
[18:54:36] <EinarLathe> axis.2.f-error seems to be max 0.09186 but I have no clue what the unit is.
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[18:57:29] <EinarLathe> I'm threading 2.5mm pitch. But the first rev or so is >5mm pitch!
[18:58:31] <sabotender> CaptHindsight: it seems to be of far greater quality than the one that was suggested to me, and still a decent price
[18:59:36] <archivist> EinarLathe, start far enough away for the Z to accelerate to the speed the thread needs
[19:00:14] <sabotender> hiya archivist! what do you reckon about the panther 210?
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[19:01:38] <EinarLathe> If this is a problem inherent to threading I may have to install the threading tool on the other side of the workpiece so I can thread against the chuck (and shoulder)
[19:01:47] <archivist> sabotender, I heard the noise on that video!
[19:01:51] <pcw_home> Yeah maybe not enough I for you z accel limits
[19:01:56] <EinarLathe> It seems there is no problem at the end of the thread.
[19:02:18] <sabotender> archivist: meh that noise equals power! looks like that spindle is actually a drill
[19:02:24] <pcw_home> more x setback (with your slow z accel)
[19:02:41] <archivist> sabotender, no that noise was a vibration of something
[19:03:01] <sabotender> besides I don't care about the noise, I care about the body design. It seems more rigid
[19:03:12] <sabotender> wait which video were you looking at?
[19:03:52] <archivist> <sabotender> CaptHindsight: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=na9-USi_hZQ
[19:04:00] <sabotender> oh! lol
[19:04:14] <sabotender> that is not the panther
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[19:04:43] <sabotender> archivist: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYAfNTvgTak THAT is the panther
[19:05:03] <sabotender> I like the frame a lot-lot
[19:06:08] <XXCoder> woot, free qualty MDP boards!
[19:06:23] <XXCoder> its largish so large enough to be used on cnc build
[19:07:06] <XXCoder> if not, I can always use it for gantry. talking about gantry, I also found smallish 2x2 of very expensive and fairly thick quality lamated wood.
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[19:08:32] <IchGuckLive> XXCoder: how is you mill growing
[19:08:51] <XXCoder> just got first stock. could afford it since it was free lol
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[19:09:04] <XXCoder> *wood boards and such
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[19:09:29] <XXCoder> I hope neighbor warehouse dumps more, it was quality stuff~!
[19:11:02] <sabotender> XXCoder: so you are making your own?
[19:11:07] <XXCoder> evenually
[19:11:10] <sabotender> sweet
[19:11:19] <XXCoder> its very slow process
[19:11:22] <sabotender> I was going to make my own; but was talked out of it
[19:11:35] <XXCoder> from what I see you can buy em in parts
[19:11:39] <archivist> not by me
[19:11:44] <sabotender> so, I am getting an inexpensive quality mill
[19:11:47] <XXCoder> entire electric system for just $130 plus shipping
[19:11:48] <sabotender> ahem router
[19:12:09] <XXCoder> and yeah making cnc router not mill sorry
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[19:12:38] <sabotender> hehe as mills are usually made of cast iron and HEAVY :-p
[19:12:58] <XXCoder> rails is pretty tough, cheap but shipping ouch. or local cheap shipping but expensive parts.
[19:13:02] <archivist> that router vibrates a bit when cutting the outer border
[19:13:05] <XXCoder> so far china is cheaper overall
[19:13:24] <sabotender> archivist: the panther?
[19:13:29] <archivist> yes
[19:13:38] <sabotender> look at how thick that (bit) is
[19:13:47] <sabotender> but you are right
[19:14:03] <archivist> an 1/8" ish
[19:14:53] <sabotender> its just cutting the border though, but it did fine work of the traces
[19:14:59] <sabotender> and that makes me smile
[19:15:01] <XXCoder> I wonder how to find really local shops where I can drive to and buy sbr rails
[19:15:07] <sabotender> as I don't want to work with etching chemicals with my boards
[19:15:10] <archivist> and those side cutting carbides are strong enough for a deeper cut than he was taking
[19:15:46] <sabotender> the chemicals scare the bajeezus out of me. I didn't mind working with them in school, because there was a dedicated lab, but never at home
[19:16:22] <sabotender> there are safer etching chemicals, but they are all messy, corrosive, and just...NO
[19:16:27] <XXCoder> get a good fume hood
[19:16:34] <XXCoder> and bigass fans for it
[19:17:05] <archivist> the cat licked the dish of ferric chloride, was sick for a bit but lived to a ripe old age
[19:17:08] <IchGuckLive> XXCoder: you shoudr get part by part as i said
[19:17:15] <XXCoder> yeah
[19:17:16] <IchGuckLive> 200USd and you are in business
[19:17:37] <sabotender> archivist: oh lord. poor kitty
[19:17:40] <XXCoder> so far I see, no such way to get entire amount of parts for $200
[19:18:36] <sabotender> XXCoder: I want to see Pictures of the entire design process! so you better not skimp out!
[19:18:43] <XXCoder> lol ok
[19:18:49] <sabotender> or I'll be sayin' 'It didn't happen' :-P
[19:18:55] <XXCoder> it probably would make some cnc pros cry
[19:20:01] <XXCoder> I'm thinking about using some cheap metal L or U beams to build parts of frame
[19:20:01] <sabotender> heh
[19:20:19] <XXCoder> with thick MDP board as overall surface
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[19:21:18] <sabotender> XXCoder: you should weld the frame together ;-)
[19:21:25] <XXCoder> zero weld skill
[19:21:37] <sabotender> could rent a nice arc-welder from a supply-oh
[19:22:18] <sabotender> that is a very good skill to have
[19:22:43] <XXCoder> yeah
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[19:24:33] <sabotender> not too difficult. requires common sense, a little intuition, and a steady hand
[19:25:03] <XXCoder> yeah unfortunatelu and needs money
[19:25:46] <sabotender> what? they aren't that expensive
[19:25:57] <sabotender> can get a decent one for 100-150usd
[19:26:00] <XXCoder> it is to me lol
[19:26:15] <skunkworks> EinarLathe: are you using a single index on the spindle for threading?
[19:26:17] <sabotender> XXCoder: hah, trust me mate, I know the feeling
[19:26:19] <XXCoder> I need full time job to have funds
[19:26:35] <XXCoder> I'm building a cnc slowly because I need a hobby
[19:26:43] <sabotender> I have to save 2 months worth of funds just to be able to afford this panther 210
[19:26:46] <XXCoder> because fuk it, I only has one life
[19:26:51] <XXCoder> no 1 ups
[19:27:41] <sabotender> aye to that
[19:28:09] <XXCoder> let me know if you ever find a 1 up mushroom lol
[19:28:09] <sabotender> as a matter of fact, I need to get an arc welder myself for my projects
[19:28:18] <EinarLathe> No. 90 slots+Index
[19:28:22] <XXCoder> is arc one that dont need gas, just power
[19:28:28] <sabotender> right
[19:28:44] <XXCoder> okay, know basics from this book I draft read though once lol
[19:28:50] <sabotender> i learned by using scrap metal
[19:30:07] <XXCoder> cool
[19:30:17] <XXCoder> no good scrap metal source here drat
[19:30:33] <sabotender> eh? no junkyards?
[19:30:41] <XXCoder> so far I know, no
[19:30:56] <sabotender> no recycling plants?
[19:31:05] <XXCoder> that one hmm maybe
[19:31:14] <XXCoder> gonna evenually call em if I ever get welder
[19:31:23] <sabotender> sweet
[19:33:21] <sabotender> blah its time for nosh
[19:33:30] <XXCoder> nosh = eat a meal?
[19:34:08] <sabotender> yeppers, or it could just mean 'food'
[19:35:36] <XXCoder> lol ok
[19:35:43] <sabotender> like, if I told you, 'Excellent nosh', it means that it was a good meal. It all depends on context and dialect.
[19:36:29] <XXCoder> always
[19:36:36] <XXCoder> same thing appears in ASL
[19:38:23] <_methods> local machine shops might let you dig through their dumpster for drops to practice on
[19:41:30] <XXCoder> good idea, thanks./
[19:41:43] <XXCoder> I know metal shop near where I work
[19:44:55] <IchGuckLive> im off BYE have a nice mlling sutorday where ever you are in the world
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[19:53:02] <rodfrey> When mapping codes, can I access .ini file parameters from python? In particular I can't figure out how to read [EMCIO]TOOLCHANGE_QUILL_UP?
[19:53:15] <Einar> Did anyone here try threading from a shoulder? I'm thinking if I try to do the impossible, I'd rather find a possible way.
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[19:54:23] <Einar> Aahh! So I'll repeat that. Did anyone here try threading from a shoulder? I'm thinking if I try to do the impossible, I'd rather find a possible way.
[19:55:18] <andypugh> Why not thread towards the shoulder?
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[19:56:15] <Einar> My lathe have a back toolchanger. So I would have to make a front toolpost or an upside-down holder.
[19:56:21] <andypugh> However, depending on the machine, away from the shoulder might be OK, you will just have something of a pitch error at the very start of the thread, but you will need a relief groove anyway for the tool to land in.
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[19:57:15] <Einar> Threading 2.5mm pitch at 300RPM I get pitch error for the first rev=5mm.
[19:57:20] <andypugh> I thought that back-tools were normally upside down?
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[19:58:00] <andypugh> Do you know if your machine accel limit is anywhere near the physical limit?
[19:58:05] <Einar> Not on the Boxford. Then the cutting force will not be supported by the pawl in the toolchanger.
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[19:58:32] <andypugh> Ah, right.
[19:59:06] <Einar> Not sure. It's now 400, was 80 yesterday, and there is not much improvement if any.
[19:59:06] <andypugh> You could make a "round the corner" tool :-)
[19:59:51] <Einar> Thought of that too, but only useful for short threads. Another thought was to make the nut variable pitch too.
[20:00:05] <andypugh> :-)
[20:01:13] <Einar> An extra front toolpost may not be all bad. Then I would have 9 tools instead of 8.
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[20:01:25] <archivist> Einar, last time I did it I was cutting internal to a shoulder
[20:01:51] <Einar> It does not seem to be any problem at the thread exit.
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[20:03:53] <archivist> your tool has to accelerate from stationary, either work towards the shoulder of slow down to get your acceleration in less thread space
[20:03:59] <andypugh> The round-the-corner tool I was thinking of hooked under the worpiece to pop up the other side.
[20:04:44] <Einar> Ahh! A Viagra activated tool! That I did not consider.
[20:06:34] <Einar> My spindle drive reacts fairly snappy. Is there any way I could start at say 50RPM and speed it up while the Z accelerates?
[20:07:02] <andypugh> The manual suggests that is a bad idea, but it might be OK if you do it consistently.
[20:08:55] <Einar> Then I would have to use S50 - entry move - S300 - G33 ... ?
[20:09:19] <andypugh> I don't know, I do suspect that it might prove tricky.
[20:09:41] <archivist> I use G76, just works
[20:11:16] <andypugh> Can you play with the entry taper setting in G76?
[20:11:31] <Einar> I'll try to figure out if there is space for a front toolpost where I can put a threading tool.
[20:12:11] <Einar> If doing a shallow entry I could as well have a 5mm groove to let it FU in?
[20:12:28] <andypugh> How about a die nut in one of the boring tool holes?
[20:12:40] <archivist> andypugh, yes
[20:13:35] <archivist> I mostly use the taper out though http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2012/2012_05_06_Leawood/IMG_1240.JPG
[20:13:52] <Einar> Or better in a die nut holder. But then I would have to have the right die. And run high RPM, as my motor is direct drive and not very powerful at low RPM.
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[20:15:07] <PCW> Einar: did you set the z axis acceleration higher?
[20:15:19] <Einar> Archivist: Some of the things I need to make is like that. Each of my welders have different gas couplings. :-(
[20:15:55] <archivist> Einar, that was made on my little Denford starturn
[20:16:06] <Einar> I set accel to 400. Was 80 if I remember correctly. As far as I can see that is not overcooking it.
[20:16:28] <PCW> which accel?
[20:16:38] <Einar> archivist: Dimensions? (appx.)
[20:17:04] <Einar> Z accel. I also jacked up X accel, but not as much.
[20:17:19] <archivist> about 5/8" internal diameter
[20:18:04] <Einar> (Thinking hard) 15mm then.
[20:18:23] <archivist> iirc the nipple takes 1/2" od pipe
[20:19:36] <archivist> hmm two years ago and still not fitted to the boiler drain :)
[20:19:55] <Einar> I'll have to get some ale and have a round of tuning tomorrow. Not very fun, but it needs to be done. Is G0 Z50 - G1Z0F100 -- repeat, a good way of testing?
[20:20:47] <Einar> If loosing steps it should happen in only one direction?
[20:21:23] <archivist> any direction
[20:21:32] <archivist> depends
[20:22:11] <Einar> I was thinking if it looses on accel and doing G0 both ways the lost steps would even out?
[20:22:56] <archivist> no assumptions, measure :)
[20:23:44] <archivist> and dont forget any additional masses like tooling so leave some headroom
[20:24:16] <Einar> I could mount a glass DRO, but that would involve some work.
[20:24:25] <archivist> tooling, cutting load, friction because you forgot to oil
[20:24:54] <Einar> LinuxCNC forgot to oil. ;-)
[20:25:18] <archivist> for testing most just use a dti to work against to see is always to the same point
[20:26:21] <archivist> I had to reduce acceleration later as friction varied due to table imbalance
[20:26:56] <Einar> I don't like to see it rapid against my DTI. But I can find one that I am not too attached to.
[20:28:06] <archivist> you can get problems at low speeds due to oil film loss, not just g0 testing you need
[20:28:56] <Einar> The original controller started out at 500steps/sec and accelerated from there.
[20:29:12] <Einar> Maybe to overcome stick slip?
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[20:31:06] <archivist> steppers are strange beasts, there is a resonant range you need to get past
[20:31:18] <andypugh> An example here of a repeatability test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oWc6val6ME
[20:32:30] <andypugh> I think that is reading microns.
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[20:33:13] <archivist> why does it sound like dry bearings :)
[20:33:38] <andypugh> (When you look at the LinuxCNC screen you can see he has added two more digits than normal folk use in metric)
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[20:34:21] <andypugh> I don't know, I think it is the servo chopper noise. It isn't anything like that loud in real life (I have been to visit)
[20:36:47] <archivist> dont think one would see bits of microns on a certain non open source control :)
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[20:38:17] <Einar> That also requires good mechanics and servos! You can't get that in a DIY machine made from broomsticks, threaded stock and rollerskate bearings.
[20:40:00] <archivist> you can do pretty fine stuff with stepper if your mechanics are up to it
[20:40:15] <archivist> but slowly
[20:40:29] <Einar> We're getting the opportunity to sell premium brand servo drives and motors. My partner says no. Guess what my vote is! :-)
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[20:42:27] <archivist> do we get discount ?
[20:44:27] <Einar> You would be surprized how low the markup is on that stuff. But I would need test units, as I'm the support guy.
[20:46:34] <Einar> I do have some servos and drives from Ebay. But will rather upgrade my mill with them than the lathe.
[20:48:52] <Einar> Any of you program AVR microcontrollers in C?
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[21:05:12] <rodfrey> Does anybody know how I can access ini file parameters from python? I can find how to do it from g-code, but all I can find for python is "Permanent setup information is usually stored in the ini file. While ini variables can be easily accessed from the shell, Python and C code"...
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[21:05:50] <rodfrey> One example I've seen manually loads an inifile with inifile = linuxcnc.ini(sys.argv[1])
[21:06:02] <rodfrey> but with a running linuxcnc instance I shouldn't need to find the file?
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[21:12:19] <PetefromTn_> Afternoon folks!!
[21:13:22] <andypugh> rodfrey: import linuxcnc
[21:13:40] <rodfrey> yup, did that
[21:13:48] <rodfrey> I see it has an 'ini' member
[21:14:14] <rodfrey> oh! is it just linuxcnc.find('boo', 'yah')?
[21:16:14] <rodfrey> nope
[21:16:50] <andypugh> bear with me, I have done it
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[21:17:42] <andypugh> rodfrey: Line 46 onwards: http://git.linuxcnc.org/gitweb?p=linuxcnc.git;a=blob;f=lib/python/toolstore.py;h=166b28a384b4abed208308dbe5789f06e6d2974e;hb=96fcc9564d0ea3f57ea8f7ff4c3d8ee7aa18909c#l46
[21:18:13] <andypugh> (lines 46, 47 and 55 specifically)
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[21:20:52] <rodfrey> andypugh: Cheers, exactly what I need!
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[21:25:03] <EinarLathe> I was obviously way off! Now at 6000mm/min on Z and not loosing a step! I was at 1800.
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[22:13:18] <Deejay> gn8
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[22:44:02] <GuShH_> j
[22:46:22] <p0st4L> k
[22:46:51] <CaptHindsight> the Panther-210 uses the flex coupling as a spring to load the bearings on the right side of the Y axis and the bearings in the motor on the left (as viewed in that video)
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[22:48:52] <CaptHindsight> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYAfNTvgTak that's even worse than the Chinese routers
[22:50:43] <GuShH_> p0st4L: it was the cat, I think.
[22:50:57] <p0st4L> uh huh, that's what they all say :P
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[22:57:50] <CaptHindsight> sabotender: http://www.rockfordballscrew.com/rbs/assets/Image/BearingSupport3.jpg this is the way to properly support a ballscrew
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[22:58:31] <CaptHindsight> there is no axial play in the screw, no axial loads are placed on the motor
[23:00:37] <CaptHindsight> http://machinedesign.com/site-files/machinedesign.com/files/archive/motionsystemdesign.com/images/fixed-end894.jpg
[23:02:26] <CaptHindsight> http://www.nookindustries.com/LinearLibraryItem/Ballscrew_Col_Streng_Crit_Speed
[23:06:17] <CaptHindsight> http://www.nookindustries.com/LinearLibraryItem/_LinearScrewAlignment
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[23:08:12] <CaptHindsight> http://machinedesign.com/linear-motion/importance-ballscrew-end-fixity
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[23:21:42] <KreAture> hey guys!
[23:21:49] <KreAture> I finally got around to updating to 2.5
[23:22:04] <KreAture> now can I add calibration to gantry squareness in sw?
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[23:22:13] <KreAture> I'm 0.3 deg off
[23:22:18] <KreAture> (yes it sucks)
[23:25:51] <KreAture> I need around 0.005mm move on x for every mm move on y but I have no idea where to enter it
[23:27:19] <jdh> it is almost always better to fix things like that in hardware instead of software
[23:27:46] <KreAture> jdh I have
[23:27:52] <KreAture> that is why the 3 deg is now 0.3
[23:28:04] <KreAture> but the last part is very hard as the machine is wooden
[23:28:12] <KreAture> and it was cut on a crooked machine
[23:28:39] <KreAture> The x axis ride in grooves cut wrong
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[23:28:40] <KreAture> hehe
[23:28:56] <KreAture> I was told it was possible and I need to do it so I can cut new parts
[23:29:10] <jdh> you might be able to compensate by G10 L2 p0 R<somethign small>
[23:29:10] <XXCoder> bad acme screw or something?
[23:29:30] <KreAture> XXCoder nah the whole gantry rides sideways
[23:29:35] <KreAture> slight angle
[23:29:38] <jdh> how's redneck land?
[23:29:40] <jdh> <urk>
[23:29:51] <KreAture> single screw so no way to "torque" it in place either
[23:30:03] <KreAture> New machine will be alu/steel and have two screws
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[23:30:44] <KreAture> jdh doesn't that rotate the coordinates ?
[23:30:52] <jdh> yeah
[23:31:00] <jdh> which works in my mind, but perhaps not in reality.
[23:31:10] <KreAture> no
[23:31:22] <KreAture> my X and Y are not 90
[23:31:28] <KreAture> they are 89.7
[23:31:33] <jdh> oh yeah.
[23:31:46] <jdh> well... my disclaimer was accurate.
[23:31:47] <KreAture> I need linuxcnc to drive the x a tad when moving the y to square it off
[23:32:20] <KreAture> it also has to move y a tiny bit more than normal to compensate for the lack of squareness shortening the sistance
[23:32:40] <KreAture> that error is 0.5%
[23:32:43] <KreAture> approx
[23:32:49] <jdh> screw mapping?
[23:32:53] <KreAture> no
[23:32:55] <KreAture> angle
[23:33:03] <KreAture> it's basic trig
[23:33:18] <KreAture> it would be immediately clear if axis were 45 deg to eachother
[23:33:36] <KreAture> Then for every mm on y I'd have to move back 1 mm on x to keep it in line
[23:34:17] <XXCoder> made me wondee if your framework was trapezoid faintly
[23:34:17] <KreAture> but since 1mm move on y doesn't move it 1mm in 90 deg to x it needs to scale up by 1/sin(45)
[23:34:38] <XXCoder> wrong shape
[23:34:40] <KreAture> If I cnc a square it becomes a paralellogram
[23:34:45] <XXCoder> oh parraleogram
[23:34:51] <KreAture> both ends slanted same
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[23:35:31] <KreAture> the mopre slant, the more it eats of the motion in y and adds it as motion in x
[23:35:42] <KreAture> compensating the x away still leaves a too short y move
[23:35:49] <KreAture> thus the fcorections
[23:36:01] <KreAture> someone told me in here ages ago it was possible
[23:36:08] <KreAture> just like there is a deltakins
[23:37:42] <XXCoder> curious - moving table or gantry?
[23:38:14] <KreAture> this machine: http://kreature.org/projects/mini-cnc/rev3/rev3_on_the_desk.jpg
[23:39:15] <XXCoder> I see you decocated your desk ;) but is that solid alum rods?
[23:39:31] <KreAture> steel construction pipes
[23:39:33] <XXCoder> maybe time to upgrade to SBR
[23:39:40] <KreAture> please
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[23:39:53] <KreAture> I said my new machine has sbr's coming
[23:39:55] <KreAture> 20mm sbr
[23:40:00] <XXCoder> lol ok
[23:40:16] <KreAture> This thing is almost brand new though
[23:40:17] <CaptHindsight> that router is very flexible
[23:40:20] <XXCoder> I'm definitely going doe sbr16 on mine. maybe 20 on X
[23:40:24] <KreAture> I built it as a excersize in cheapness
[23:40:35] <KreAture> it's built for less than $200 total, including motors
[23:41:01] <XXCoder> capt would using bunch of L or U alum exrusions make bed rigid?
[23:41:08] <XXCoder> wow
[23:41:17] <XXCoder> what about controller and drivers?
[23:41:26] <XXCoder> is that nema 23?
[23:41:29] <KreAture> controllers I had, hoimemade ones
[23:41:34] <KreAture> and it attaches to pc
[23:41:38] <KreAture> yes
[23:41:45] <KreAture> nema23, high speed motors
[23:42:08] <KreAture> they keep 80% torque all the way out past 4000 steps/sec
[23:42:21] <KreAture> Not as long as many use, but much much less inductance
[23:42:25] <KreAture> 0.8 uH
[23:42:30] <CaptHindsight> 1/4-20 threaded rod for leadscrews?
[23:42:40] <XXCoder> decent. I found on ebay $130 or so for 3 motors, controller/drivers and power source
[23:42:45] <XXCoder> not bad
[23:42:47] <KreAture> CaptHindsight metric my man!
[23:42:54] <KreAture> M10
[23:43:03] <KreAture> but yes, hackjob and not great
[23:43:05] <KreAture> but works
[23:43:10] <KreAture> or was it m8
[23:43:13] <KreAture> can't remember now
[23:43:17] <KreAture> M8 I think
[23:43:23] <CaptHindsight> looks like M8 at most
[23:43:26] <KreAture> yes
[23:43:29] <KreAture> fits bearings
[23:43:30] <KreAture> m8
[23:43:56] <KreAture> I cut this on it the other day
[23:43:56] <KreAture> http://kreature.org/projects/3d_printer/rostock_plus/parts/kreatures_rostock_200_base_and_top-plate_s.jpg
[23:44:14] <KreAture> The z part I am very happy with. quite rigid for a mdf machine
[23:44:48] <XXCoder> what thickness mdf?
[23:45:26] <KreAture> mostly 18mm, some 25mm
[23:45:42] <KreAture> all sealed
[23:45:45] <KreAture> and painted
[23:45:50] <XXCoder> pretty thick. ok
[23:46:02] <KreAture> I tested deflection on it with a guage
[23:46:21] <KreAture> it flexes 0.1mm at around 10lbs so not superstiff
[23:46:24] <KreAture> but it's mdf
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[23:46:35] <XXCoder> if its accurate enough its fine
[23:46:44] <KreAture> for what i need now this is enough
[23:46:51] <KreAture> if I could just get it square
[23:46:51] <KreAture> hehe
[23:47:29] <KreAture> IN theory I should be able to just bend the x like skewing it (paralellowhatchamacallit) but it doesn't budge
[23:47:29] <XXCoder> yeah you recall how you can see if corner to cross corner is same as other pair of corners length?
[23:47:34] <XXCoder> if its not its not square
[23:47:47] <KreAture> I did a test on a small cut
[23:47:59] <KreAture> 590mm by 380mm I think it was
[23:48:11] <KreAture> the diagonals became 700.2 and 704mm
[23:49:52] <XXCoder> ow
[23:50:06] <andypugh> KreAture: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ContributedComponents#millkins_trivial_kinematics_extended_by_XY_skew_correction
[23:50:55] <KreAture> awsome!
[23:51:01] <KreAture> I knew I'd seen it once
[23:52:42] <KreAture> I will try corecting it once more though
[23:52:49] <KreAture> with a bigger mallet
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[23:58:20] <XXCoder> good luck man
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