#linuxcnc | Logs for 2013-10-06

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[00:06:47] <archivist> andypugh, think of a screw cutting gearbox or other type of gear box that has high/low range and a reversal
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[00:08:35] <andypugh> archivist: Well, this is a spindle gearbox, and the gears are all unique in ratio. (and, if too gears have the same ratio close enough to be detected as the same, then they can surely share the multiplier?)
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[00:12:52] <archivist> I think classic ladder like skunkworks used on the K&T spindle, but he has automated it, I know what you are thinking but I expect some exceptions
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[00:13:39] <andypugh> it works pretty much perfectly on cars.
[00:14:50] <archivist> if one chose gears for a sensible range
[00:15:48] <andypugh> Spindle gears do tend to be deliberately distributed.
[00:16:24] <MacGalempsy> evening guys
[00:16:39] <archivist> except users look at a comp and use it for another job, I am thinking of my southbend screw cutting gearbox
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[00:20:22] <archivist> it has a two way large divider input, a 3 way range selector, and about 10 output gears, one has to select the reverse tumbler for infeed on the cross slide, and the fine feed clamp in the saddle box is different to the leadscrew feed nut
[00:21:52] <t12> anyone happen to know the name of this kind of connector block? https://www.dropbox.com/sc/d4q5hkjfhxu8m7t/gN84lRBwwk
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[00:22:57] <DaViruz> pluggable terminal block
[00:23:13] <archivist> one of my stepper drives has that
[00:23:14] <DaViruz> or you mean the model name of that specific model?
[00:23:31] <t12> something to point me in the right direction for finding the mating part
[00:23:53] <t12> i just got this hc-kfs43 + mr-j2s controller working
[00:24:01] <Jp11> Phoenix contact digikey
[00:24:10] <DaViruz> a head on photo and a measurement of the pin pitch would help
[00:24:12] <t12> i thought i has a busted controller until i realized that you need two seperate mains connections for the controller
[00:25:59] <andypugh> Can be a real pain. The come in 5mm and 5.08mm and 3mm 2.54mm
[00:27:06] <andypugh> Your current solution would be OK if you had used square sockets on the square pine.
[00:27:49] <DaViruz> funny how the block seems obscured by the case
[00:27:54] <t12> yeah
[00:28:00] <t12> the last pin isnt in the manual either
[00:28:10] <t12> nor is the connector type, but maybne i jsut havent found it
[00:28:27] <t12> pitch is 5mm or .2", since its a .jp part i assume 5mm
[00:28:52] <DaViruz> i can just barely see a logo and number on top of it
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[00:29:17] <DaViruz> id say you can't guess pin pitch by origin
[00:29:36] <t12> oh i didnt notice if there was writing on the block checking
[00:29:53] <andypugh> Yeah, Mesa use metric pitch, and I can't buy the metric versions in the UK..
[00:30:18] <DaViruz> surely farnell stocks them?
[00:30:35] <andypugh> You would have thought so, wouldn't you?
[00:30:44] <DaViruz> i would :-)
[00:31:35] <DaViruz> on a different note, i can get parts faster and with cheaper shipping from farnell in the uk then i can get them from my swedish suppliers
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[00:32:37] <andypugh> Have a look at rapidonline too
[00:33:00] <andypugh> Range isn't as good, but they are cheaper
[00:34:23] <t12> ah here we go
[00:34:31] <t12> yeah phoenix, mtsb 2.5, 5.08mm pitch
[00:35:57] <MacGalempsy> repeatibility of .001 seems pretty good. does that sounds right for a grizzly with ballscrews?
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[00:36:19] <andypugh> mm or inches?
[00:36:28] <DaViruz> 0.001 feet sounds about right
[00:36:40] <MacGalempsy> inches
[00:37:07] <andypugh> Actually, I would hope for better than that with ballscrews
[00:37:23] <MacGalempsy> hoe much better?
[00:38:47] <andypugh> Depends on how you are measuring. if the indicator is at 0, then G0 X50 / G0 X0 should be as good as the indicator can measure.
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[00:39:48] <andypugh> If you are measuring from different approach directions than 0.001 is OK, if not stellar.
[00:40:04] <archivist> depends if your screw has backlash and is the slides are well adjusted
[00:40:41] <archivist> you can get an axis to rotate a bit with some slide types
[00:40:55] <andypugh> Well, _repeatability_ to me means doing exactly the same thing every time, and all those variables should disappear.
[00:41:25] <archivist> not with loose gibs as fitted bo the overseas gents
[00:41:31] <archivist> by
[00:43:06] <MacGalempsy> I would prefer to buy made in USA, but how many machines really are?
[00:43:34] <andypugh> _I_ would prefer made in the UK...
[00:44:00] <MacGalempsy> of course, we love our motherlands
[00:44:54] <MacGalempsy> do are you guys pros or hobbyists?
[00:44:56] <archivist> an old bridgeport will hold better repeatability probably
[00:45:09] <MacGalempsy> i dont have room for an old bridgeport
[00:45:22] <andypugh> I am very much a hobbbyist.
[00:45:35] <MacGalempsy> I have a two car garage and its residential
[00:45:47] <t12> thats way plenty room for a bridgeport
[00:45:50] <MacGalempsy> I think an old bridgeport would be quite disturbing to the neighbors
[00:46:02] <archivist> mostly I fire up a machine to earn some money, but not often enough
[00:46:03] <t12> - the cars
[00:46:09] <MacGalempsy> not with two cars and washing/drying machines!
[00:46:16] <andypugh> But my mill was made in Heckmondwike. And is all the better for it.
[00:46:17] <Jp11> Gee I have a kitamura and a BP in a 2car
[00:46:40] <MacGalempsy> Jp11: how man cars in there at the same time?
[00:46:54] <MacGalempsy> I cannot part my porsche outside :P
[00:46:54] <archivist> we turfed the car and bikes out years ago from a single garage
[00:46:57] <Jp11> None never
[00:47:23] <Jp11> Only the kids bikes
[00:47:29] <andypugh> I have a one-car garage containing 2 motorcycles, a pushbike, a workbench, a Harrison miller, a 9x40 lathe/mill combo and a Rivett 608. It's a bit cramped.
[00:47:49] <MacGalempsy> andypugh: I would guess so!
[00:47:53] <archivist> andypugh, there is another rivett on fleabay...
[00:48:05] <andypugh> I saw it. Looks like a good one too.
[00:48:09] <MacGalempsy> trying to talk the old lady into stacking washer/dryer combo >)
[00:48:17] <Jp11> Yeah stepping over everything is getting old
[00:49:03] <archivist> I dont get nagged here, so little lathe in the kitchen, 5 axis upstairs in small bedroom, big stuff in the garage
[00:49:16] <t12> i've discovered that more space doesnt really work that well
[00:49:29] <archivist> too far to walk
[00:49:34] <t12> eventually you spend too much time walking around
[00:49:44] <t12> discipline with moving shit around and not leaving it around may work better
[00:49:47] <t12> not that i'm any good at taht
[00:49:53] <archivist> I hate the drill being in the garage when working upstairs
[00:50:16] <MacGalempsy> so the grizzly has a 14" z axis, I was thinking this little 5th axis may be fun http://www.ebay.com/itm/CNC-engraving-machine-Rotary-Axis-A-Axis-B-Axis-4th-5th-Axis-CNC-Rotary-Table-/181216504085?pt=BI_Tool_Work_Holding&hash=item2a31586915
[00:51:31] <archivist> seen that before, /me not going to get one
[00:52:02] <MacGalempsy> why not?
[00:52:07] <andypugh> MacGalempsy: With 6" height in the widget and the length that tools are you might find things a bit tighter than you expect.
[00:52:57] <archivist> the stepper under the table has no gearing therefore little to resist cutting forces
[00:53:15] <andypugh> If you can find one with the table nearer the pivot you might find it more useful.
[00:53:33] <archivist> I had serious height problems on my machine
[00:53:46] <Jp11> A mini 2 axis cradle would be cool
[00:54:29] <andypugh> I had to rescue my shortest (chipped) boring bar today to fit the boring head above the work.
[00:55:35] <andypugh> And my drill chuck is almost never usable, I have to put drills in collets.
[00:55:39] <archivist> I had to put a rectangular block under the column to get space to work on the two rotaries
[00:56:03] <andypugh> (There is no reason that the drill could not be an awful lot shorter, that I can see.
[00:56:13] <andypugh> (Drill chuck, that is)
[00:57:00] <Jp11> I use Collets to hold drills just to avoid that
[00:57:40] <Jp11> My drill chuck adds like 5"
[00:58:08] <andypugh> I think mine is one of these: http://www.ctctools.biz/servlet/the-325/13MM-BT40-KEYLESS-INDUSTRIAL/Detail
[00:58:27] <archivist> I find you need that length to get over the rotary to its centre http://www.archivist.info/cnc/stage8/IMG_0268.JPG
[00:58:29] <andypugh> I am sure a lot of the mechanism could hide up the shank.
[01:00:48] <andypugh> archivist: That would look so much better assembled from glued-together granite :-)
[01:01:12] <archivist> hehe, I know how to make fugly
[01:03:32] <archivist> contemplating a new structure for the rotaries at the moment to reduce vibration and make setting up easier
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[01:09:39] <MacGalempsy> it is pretty difficult to find a mill with enough z to run the 5th axis
[01:10:19] <MacGalempsy> I thought that with 14" z, a 6" z, that give about 8" with tool and material. a very small 5th axis project
[01:10:35] <MacGalempsy> so maybe 5-6" material?
[01:11:02] <MacGalempsy> archivist: what kind of 5th axis you have in that bedroom?
[01:11:46] <archivist> home brew from two standard rotaries and an angle plate
[01:12:06] <MacGalempsy> pics?
[01:12:24] <archivist> it is on that picture I just linked http://www.archivist.info/cnc/stage8/IMG_0268.JPG
[01:13:05] <MacGalempsy> that looks pretty mad scientist bro
[01:13:39] <archivist> I call it fugly, but it works
[01:13:57] <MacGalempsy> I am hoping to dig deeper into my mad science. working is all that counts.
[01:14:21] <MacGalempsy> and to use this machine to make my enclosed 3d printer :)
[01:14:28] <archivist> the large rotary is a 6inch and the smaller is 5 inch ish
[01:14:34] <MacGalempsy> well, not so much make, but finish and improve
[01:14:39] <andypugh> I am too driven by aesthetics, hence having castings made for my conversion.
[01:14:57] <archivist> arsethetics
[01:15:20] <archivist> I am driven by cost
[01:16:25] <MacGalempsy> it is kind of frustrating trying to figure out the right machine. my budget is about 10k
[01:16:29] <andypugh> I spent thursday evening on "Bother, this casting moved between the two clamp settings with the face mill. I wonder if I can scrape it into a flat?
[01:17:05] <andypugh> MacGalempsy: 10k will buy you a fully working Tormach
[01:17:23] <archivist> a good make
[01:17:29] <MacGalempsy> you mentioned the tormach before.
[01:17:46] <Jp11> What about a syil?
[01:17:48] <MacGalempsy> their site looks good
[01:17:53] <MacGalempsy> I am curious about the syil
[01:18:06] <MacGalempsy> it appears to be the same machine as that bolton tools
[01:18:12] <andypugh> Well, you said you liked the idea of US manufacture.
[01:18:17] <Jp11> They seem all the same to me
[01:18:29] <MacGalempsy> I do, but syil is just sold in US, not made here
[01:18:48] <archivist> yes, it gets badged by all, and is less good (cheap sh...)
[01:18:51] <Jp11> One might spend more on screws and such
[01:19:00] <MacGalempsy> yeah. so with the bolton being 7k, and basically the same thing, I was have really been thinking about going that way
[01:19:19] <andypugh> Tormach don't seem to be quite the same as the others. They seem to be the only one with turcite slides, for example.
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[01:19:38] <MacGalempsy> 7k gets machine, stand, oiler, cooling system and 4th axis
[01:19:41] <archivist> if you want accuracy and backup from the seller I would go elsewhere
[01:19:53] <Jp11> or buy a manual one for a grand and do the rest yoirself
[01:20:32] <MacGalempsy> since this is my first endevor into CNC machining, the goal is to get a turnkey model
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[01:20:58] <andypugh> Part of the reason I like Tormach is that they are contributing back into LinuxCNC: http://git.linuxcnc.org/gitweb?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commit;h=b6b2c6343a700eb997fc57b648cc7b675beb8d82
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[01:21:51] <andypugh> Of course Smithy are even more deeply involved, as far as I can see it was Matt @ Smithy who dragged EMC out of NIST and into the world.
[01:22:58] <andypugh> The new Tormach lathe is LinuxCNC only. The mills are LinuxCNC as an option.
[01:23:17] <archivist> here a seig as sold by a uk seller note the reassembly guide he provides up front http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Machines-Accessories/Milling-Machines/Model-Super-X3-Mill
[01:25:52] <andypugh> That's actually looking like quite a decent machine now.
[01:28:57] <MacGalempsy> how does that differ from all the other x3 derivtives out there?
[01:29:04] <andypugh> In the drilling video you can seen the that the drill is shaking the head, but that motor / drive is impressibely quiet.
[01:29:08] <archivist> I helped someone do the spindle rebuild
[01:30:25] <archivist> MacGalempsy, I am not sure it differs at all except for the honesty of the seller and the documentation he has had written to fix the supplied errors in manufacture
[01:30:28] <MacGalempsy> andypugh: remember that benchman xt I showed you the other day? I offered that dude 5k and he laughed. heh
[01:31:08] <MacGalempsy> but there is another guy with one who is checking with his partner about a price.
[01:32:31] <andypugh> Loooking at the Sieg facing video, my little Harrison would _laugh_ at both those jobs :-(
[01:32:42] <andypugh> Wrong bracket :-)
[01:33:17] <andypugh> But then with a 45 rpm bottom gear and a 2hp motor it is not short of grunt.
[01:34:31] <archivist> my horizontal has similar grunt
[01:35:14] <andypugh> Mine was originally designed as a horixontal. I guess that they were intended to turn big cutters rather slowly.
[01:35:18] <archivist> the chinese machines tend to have columns far too small for hard work
[01:36:03] <andypugh> Yes, you can slap the side of the head of my Chinese one and it goes "boing". You slap the side of the head of the Harrison and _you_ go "Oww"
[01:36:05] <archivist> should go back to bed, steam engine driving tomorrow
[01:36:18] <andypugh> Where and what?
[01:36:22] <archivist> http://www.middleton-leawood.org.uk/leawood/whatson2013.html
[01:36:39] <jp_mill> Didn't someone fill theirs up with epoxy and aggregate
[01:37:12] <andypugh> Well, I filled mine with the ballscrew, so that would be incompatible.
[01:37:46] <andypugh> To be fair, my super-neat ballscrew installation did terrible things to the rigidity.
[01:38:21] <jp_mill> ah aesthetics had a price :)
[01:38:33] <andypugh> And bolting a large lump of steel to the back of the column would probably be a huge improvement.
[01:39:20] <andypugh> But the machine is basically a lathe with a milling head, and lathe cross-slides are not good milling tables.
[01:42:14] <andypugh> Compare and contrast: (The working envelopes are very similar) : https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Dk3wsS9o7XJ-N2kfUnESDtMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink and https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/LcJ0c7JzGi1VAI-kJZaactMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink
[01:43:01] <andypugh> The 3 x 12
[01:43:34] <andypugh> The 3 x 1/2" T-slots v the 2 x 7mm T-slots is a huge improvement.
[01:43:53] <jp_mill> I like the lathe setup. How big are those buttons on the Harrison?
[01:45:29] <andypugh> The buttons are 50mm I think. Probably meant for fruit machines. But big and tough.
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[01:48:35] <jp_mill> well got the mill running now just have to see if the 7i76 and an off shore dc speed controller play nicely, but that's tomorrows fun. Night
[01:49:02] <andypugh> Time I was making Zs too.
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[01:55:11] <MacGalempsy> nighty nighty gents
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[02:46:09] <Nekosan> can linuxcnc use a usb connection to the pc from a breakout?
[02:46:43] <pcw_home> for power, yes
[02:47:13] <Nekosan> still have to use a par port for coms?
[02:47:44] <pcw_home> or non real time I/O (PLC like things)
[02:47:59] <pcw_home> for step and dir, yes
[02:48:44] <Nekosan> non realtime is not usefull
[02:48:58] <pcw_home> There is some USB motion code around (Arais Robo) but not merged
[02:49:35] <Nekosan> would be nice to see it work with a ramboboard
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[02:53:00] <pcw_home> Perhaps a better target would be some Ramps varient and a BeagleBone Black
[02:53:24] <pcw_home> (probably alreadty working with LinuxCNC)
[02:55:19] <Nekosan> how about a smoothieboard... that looks like a nice alternative
[02:55:31] <pcw_home> BBB is probably better in almost every way
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[02:56:55] <pcw_home> PRU (200 MHz 32 bit coprocessor)stepgen, real time Linux on the BBB etc etc
[02:58:54] <Nekosan> looking at building a cnc router, have a frame in mind... now the electronics to drive the steppers from linuxcnc
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[03:00:22] <pcw_home> Those little Ramps like boards are not going to drive the stepmotors of a router (unless its really tiny router)
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[03:14:42] <Jymmm> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONj4NpuJByY
[03:14:52] <Jymmm> pcw_home: ...in an altoids tin
[03:20:08] <Tom_itx> those drivers are only good for a couple amps
[03:20:13] <Tom_itx> at betst
[03:20:16] <Tom_itx> best*
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[03:35:23] <t12> pwc: think theres room on any of the mesa fpga's to handle the mitsu encoder serial?
[03:35:37] <t12> i almost have everything together to do the LA
[03:36:07] <t12> pcw even
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[06:48:52] <DJ9DJ> moin
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[07:27:39] <MacGalempsy> hey there guys
[07:28:04] <MacGalempsy> anyone familiar with the a2z sherline conversion?
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[10:10:34] <Loetmichel> mornin'
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[12:20:25] <JT-Kuttawa> Morning
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[12:46:03] <zorg> howdee
[12:46:33] <micges> ahoy
[12:47:24] <zorg> I am a emc newbee
[12:48:00] <zorg> I have done the cd install of the latest ubuntu/linuxcnc
[12:49:03] <zorg> I am following the instructions for hal_paraport
[12:49:43] <zorg> It can't find the module...do I have to compile this ?
[12:50:57] <micges> try using stepconf - configuration creator for parport machines
[12:51:00] <micges> should be in menu
[12:54:16] <zorg> so this load automatic from menu ? I don't need to worry about " loadrt " ?
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[12:55:21] <micges> for first there is typo -should be hal_parport
[12:56:37] <micges> you trying to make hal file by hand, stepconf will generate ini and hal file according to settings you choose in program
[12:57:35] <zorg> Is stepconf menu somewhere under HAL config ?
[12:58:25] <micges> Programs -> cnc->stepconf
[12:59:02] <zorg> ubuntu menu ...
[12:59:12] <zorg> thanks...
[12:59:47] <zorg> I started from beginning reading docs...it said I had to load the module
[13:01:13] <micges> it's ok, when you will have working config you can read about what's in
[13:01:21] <micges> it
[13:01:30] <micges> what machine do you have?
[13:02:21] <zorg> Im, building proto from scratch
[13:02:53] <zorg> 1st will be a mill for PCBs
[13:03:27] <zorg> small etcher
[13:04:32] <zorg> After that, a wood router I think
[13:04:38] <micges> cool
[13:05:57] <micges> for using lpt to control machine it's super easy in stepconf, just test and choose step frequency and assign lpt pins
[13:06:38] <micges> if you want some analog servo, you need to use some hardware from mesanet, pico systems ,etc
[13:07:10] <zorg> How hard is it to add 2nd and 3rd lpt using a pci pnp board ?
[13:07:49] <zorg> In old isa days we could use jumpers
[13:08:21] <micges> easy, you must simply find coorect i/o address and type it into stepconf
[13:08:43] <zorg> great
[13:08:59] <micges> addresses are showed in 'lspci -v'
[13:11:08] <micges> stepconf supports up to 3 lpt ports
[13:15:40] <Jymmm> zorg: Pssst... Your age is showing again ;)
[13:16:45] * Jymmm hides the 8 bit isa MONOCHROME/Paraport card
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[13:21:10] <micges> haha
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[13:42:02] <zorg> are you folks setting the parallel port up as ECP or EPP ?
[13:46:15] <micges> epp
[13:47:51] <zorg> why not ECP ? does the DMA mess with RT engine ?
[13:49:15] <mrsun_> EPP is for non-printer peripherals. ECP is for printers and scanners.
[13:49:19] <mrsun_> =)
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[14:03:27] <Loetmichel> zorg: why use dma when you need to get any bit to the port to a VERY specific time?
[14:03:48] <Loetmichel> dma is used for burst transfers, not for single bits/bytes
[14:04:41] <Loetmichel> you need as less buffers and stuff in the way between cpu and port as possible
[14:05:00] <Loetmichel> so the timing is the same on every write to that port
[14:05:14] <Loetmichel> else you get jitter at best
[14:07:43] <pcw_home> If the PP is being used for direct step/dir generation DMA has no advantage.
[14:07:44] <pcw_home> Mainly EPP or EPP mode are used in this case because all outputa are
[14:07:46] <pcw_home> push pull in EPP or ECP mode (instead of some being open drain in SPP mode)
[14:07:57] <pcw_home> EPP or ECP
[14:13:14] <pcw_home> For hardware interfaceed to the parallel port (like our low end FPGA cards And Pico System cards)
[14:13:15] <pcw_home> I chose EPP because it has a hardware handshake so is faster than a byte banged interface but its a lot simpler
[14:13:17] <pcw_home> then ECP
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[15:10:11] <jasen_> ok. what to use under win to test the 7i80 + sserial?
[15:10:21] <jasen_> oops , sory
[15:11:03] <skunkworks> jasen_: I have had success running the 7i80 with a different pro/100 nic
[15:11:42] <jasen_> i got a old laptop and also made it run
[15:12:06] <jasen_> but now i have to test the sserial under 7i80
[15:12:41] <pcw_home> for non-realtime the 7I80 will work with pretty much anything
[15:13:07] <mrsun_> anyone kow of any good vacuum table design for cnc routers? :)
[15:14:03] <jasen_> vacuum with t slots ot just vacuum
[15:15:56] <jp_mill> So is it possible to make a live CD from an image of my machine?
[15:17:17] <mrsun_> well vacuum and T slots should be nice i guess =)
[15:17:25] <mrsun_> as everyting cant be clamped by vacuum =)
[15:20:29] <jasen_> dimensions of the table?
[15:21:12] <mrsun_> 1200x1200mm work area but table should be a bit bigger i guess =)
[15:25:07] <jasen_> well , to give you an idea look that http://imagebin.org/272931
[15:25:21] <jasen_> it is made from standart extruded profiles
[15:26:09] <jasen_> each part is 150 mm in width
[15:26:16] <mrsun_> standard what? :P
[15:26:24] <mrsun_> never ever in my life ever seen a profile like that =)
[15:26:37] <mrsun_> and in sweden that would say it will cost me about as much as the whole machine :P
[15:28:00] <mrsun_> but looks quite neat =)
[15:28:22] <jasen_> 6 euro /kg
[15:29:06] <jasen_> 2.8kg/kilo
[15:29:29] <mrsun_> ehm ? 2.8kg/kilo ? :)
[15:29:35] <mrsun_> thats some strange kilos :p
[15:29:46] <mrsun_> where do you buy them ?
[15:30:19] <mrsun_> thing is that one would need a sacrificial sheet also on top of those things, as i would not like to cut down into them :P
[15:31:50] <jasen_> on the top we are glueing 10 mm foam pvc
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[15:36:28] <Loetmichel> i use PU resin (bi-resin G27) as sacrificial "sheet"
[15:36:48] <Loetmichel> poured "in situ"
[15:37:44] <Loetmichel> because its relative cheap, easy to mill and water resistant... and glues itseld to the plate, no need to handle wit glue
[15:37:56] <Loetmichel> but the machine ahs ti stand absolutely level ;-)
[15:38:01] <Loetmichel> has to
[15:40:44] <Loetmichel> ... my machine is a bit smaller, tough
[15:40:45] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=14028
[15:41:15] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=12614
[15:41:16] <Loetmichel> ;-)
[15:41:48] <jasen_> nice , but no vacuum
[15:47:20] <Loetmichel> ?
[15:47:30] <Loetmichel> ah
[15:47:39] <Loetmichel> no, that i have made differently
[15:47:56] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=8211
[15:48:01] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=8214
[15:48:15] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=8217
[15:48:54] <Loetmichel> ... but i have seen that MDF is the better material for a vacuum-sacrificial plate:
[15:49:12] <Loetmichel> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJmBF8HzWoc
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[15:49:29] <Loetmichel> not waterproof, though
[15:49:32] <jasen_> mdf only id you live in dry place
[15:50:23] <Loetmichel> jasen_: its only 5mm thick
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[15:50:49] <jasen_> mdf is never flat
[15:50:50] <Loetmichel> so even if it may be swelling through humidity: you have to level it anyways
[15:51:10] <Loetmichel> but the good part is that it doent have to be drilled
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[15:51:42] <Loetmichel> it lets enough air through that the parts are fixed like a vise
[15:51:53] <Loetmichel> +in
[15:52:28] <Loetmichel> seen tha video?
[15:52:35] <Tom_itx> the holes wouldn't need to be that big
[15:52:42] <Tom_itx> cross holes
[15:53:21] <Loetmichel> that is a industrial dust vacuum with about 0,3 bar below athmosphere
[15:53:59] <Loetmichel> and thats enought to press the material on the MDF without covering the open space
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[15:54:19] <Loetmichel> without the need to drill ANY holes
[15:54:21] <skunkworks> we use thin mfd also for vaccum beads
[15:54:28] <skunkworks> beds
[15:54:53] <Loetmichel> just lay a single sheet of 5mm mdf on top of the table, switch on the vacuum, level it with a big mill bit, work
[15:55:06] <Tom_itx> does the open space get plugged with cuttings?
[15:55:10] <jasen_> mdf is ok for big flat objects . try to hold aluminiun 20x20x20 cm on mdf vacuum :)
[15:55:19] <Tom_itx> do you filter the vaccuum inlet?
[15:55:26] <Tom_itx> at the pump
[15:55:40] <Loetmichel> if the surface gets to thin/to rought with cuts: just get a new sheet
[15:56:08] <Loetmichel> Tom_itx: the vacuum "pump" is a festool CTM44e
[15:56:28] <Loetmichel> ie. a industrial vacuum cleaner with external cooling
[15:57:13] <Loetmichel> jasen_: right, i woudln do that with objects that are higher than wide
[15:57:48] <Loetmichel> that has to fail with any vacuum because of the leverage the part has to be liftet by the mill bit
[15:57:52] <Loetmichel> -t+d
[15:59:05] <Loetmichel> vacuum tables are imho only for sheet material
[15:59:12] <Loetmichel> of any kind
[15:59:15] <Tom_itx> yup
[15:59:27] <Tom_itx> that's why vices were invented
[16:00:14] <Loetmichel> hmmm
[16:00:20] <Loetmichel> my german grammar shows a bit ;)
[16:00:24] <Loetmichel> sorry for that
[16:00:53] <Tom_itx> made sense to me
[16:01:23] <Loetmichel> but back to topic: i was REALLY surprised how well the mdf sacrificial sheet had gripped the workpieces
[16:01:34] <Loetmichel> even with only -0,3 bar
[16:02:08] <Loetmichel> must have something to do with the fibre the mdf is made of
[16:02:49] <Loetmichel> the seem to act as a micro sized "hedgehog" to grip the materials
[16:03:05] <Loetmichel> that
[16:03:30] <Loetmichel> and: no need to drill a fantastiillion of small holes...
[16:05:52] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/hajo/vakuumbohr.avi <- i started drilling with some "phenol paper" and gave u after calculating how long the drilling will be at 600mm*400mm and every 5mm a 0,8mm hole...
[16:06:16] <Loetmichel> up
[16:09:37] <CaptHindsight> http://www.sainsmart.com/16-channel-12v-relay-module-for-pic-arm-avr-dsp-arduino-msp430-ttl-logic.html the price is pretty low. Anyone know if they are made well enough to last more than a few months?
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[16:12:24] <jasen_> if you want to have a real god vacuum grip , in the op of the vacuum hole you must nake another 15-20 mm in diameter deep about 1mm
[16:13:16] <jasen_> sunhold relays
[16:13:25] <jasen_> will work 1-2 months
[16:14:09] <Loetmichel> jasen_: i thepn was to drill 0,8mm holes in 5mm spaced grid
[16:14:37] <Loetmichel> an then to drill 3mm holes on top of that, half the 5mm thinckenss of the plate deep
[16:14:49] <jasen_> 0,8 will have too much resistamce to the air
[16:15:07] <jasen_> nether drill 1,2 mm and 20 mm on the top
[16:15:10] <Loetmichel> so one hase about 50% of the surface for the vacuum to grip, buit only 0,8mm trhroughput on open holes
[16:16:03] <Loetmichel> s/i thepn/ the plan
[16:16:16] <Loetmichel> <- sorts his fingers (again)
[16:16:22] <jasen_> if you will make 20 mm flat 1 mm deep venduse , you will need raster of about 25 mm
[16:17:05] <Loetmichel> but as i said above: the 5mm MDF made that drilling obsolete
[16:17:22] <CaptHindsight> I'm trying to recall who used to make all those IO boards back in the 80's-90's that had ISA and serial for control. They were ~$100-200 ea
[16:17:41] <jasen_> this is in case you wont use mdf , but other plastic
[16:17:58] <Loetmichel> it lets enough air throug to fix the sheets very well, but not enough that the vacuum cleaner cant cope with the volume of the open surface
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[16:19:44] <Loetmichel> so its like three birds with one shell: no need for the drilling, just level the surface, no need to cover open areas, and it grips way better begause of the micro fibres (i think)
[16:20:00] <Loetmichel> -g+c
[16:20:32] <Loetmichel> AND its way cheaper than the phenolic paper boards
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[16:27:09] <mrsun_> does mdf let air thought it to clamp so no drilling and stuff needed ?
[16:31:41] <mrsun_> but idealy i want a table as a reference surface and not have to scim it every day :P
[16:31:52] <mrsun_> as the skimming would take time also =)
[16:38:44] <Loetmichel> mrsun_: seen the video?
[16:39:09] <mrsun_> http://www.cyrom.org/hajo/vakuumbohr.avi that oine ?
[16:39:18] <Loetmichel> no, the other one
[16:39:28] <Loetmichel> [17:48] <Loetmichel> ... but i have seen that MDF is the better material for a vacuum-sacrificial plate:
[16:39:29] <Loetmichel> [17:49] <Loetmichel> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJmBF8HzWoc
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[16:39:58] <Loetmichel> the inside of the table looks like this:
[16:40:09] <Loetmichel> [17:47] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=8211
[16:40:09] <Loetmichel> [17:47] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=8214
[16:40:09] <Loetmichel> [17:48] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=8217
[16:40:45] <Loetmichel> so you only need 5mm thick MDF to close it and have no "caving in"
[16:41:04] <mrsun_> i have to make a test for taht stuff i think =)
[16:41:13] <mrsun_> make a small vacuum table with a piece of mdf just to try it out =)
[16:41:43] <mrsun_> but what vacuum source to use ?
[16:41:58] <Loetmichel> i have used a Festool CTM 44 E vacuum cleaner
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[16:42:32] <Loetmichel> but you can use any vacuum cleaner that DOESENT cool its motor with the vaccum air
[16:43:05] <Loetmichel> or has a bypass valve for that pourpose so the motor gets cooling air even when the vacuum tume is closed entirely
[16:43:45] <mrsun_> mm gonna experiment with this some =) awesome if i can have a table with just sacrificial sheets on realy =)
[16:43:59] <Loetmichel> that was the idea ;-)
[16:44:17] <mrsun_> but i guess as you cut througth it and leave grooves the vacuum will not be so good after a while so then i need to skim it? :)
[16:44:34] <Loetmichel> ... after a while, yes
[16:45:37] <mrsun_> idealy i guess one shouldnt have to cut throught the workpiece tho, leaving like 0.1mm or so of material but in practice it will happend :P
[16:46:03] <Loetmichel> surprisingly, if you cut only a few tenths of a mm into the mdf it will not loose much vacuum
[16:46:19] <Loetmichel> it seems the "fiber" character of the mdf is helping there also
[16:47:41] <mrsun_> but so, i would have a table with holes, that i add the sacrificial sheet on top of.. and that sheet is skimmed on both sides to let vacuum pass throught it then? :)
[16:48:02] <Loetmichel> but its paramount to get a vacuum source that can operate idefinetly when plugged shut
[16:48:38] <Loetmichel> not a good thing to have the vacuum cleaner shutting down mit mid work due to overheat ;-)
[16:48:56] <Loetmichel> i have skimmed it on both sides
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[16:49:22] <Loetmichel> but i rahter one side is enough, the mdf seems to have enough pores to get the air through
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[16:51:21] <mrsun_> yeah the vacuum sorce, might be able to use the "venturi" effect on my dust collector for that? :)
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[16:53:30] <mrsun_> that reminds me, i have to try and glue the dust collector fan together again .. or that one is toast and a new one incomming but this time with a freakin seperator for the big particles, the name escapes me .. tornado ?
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[17:17:24] <IchGuckLive> hi all B)
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[18:32:32] <mrsun_> anyone has any sugestions on how to fill text etc of signs i make? if someone wants black fill on the text or something =)
[18:33:10] <Tom_itx> paint it and skin cut the surface
[18:35:27] <mrsun_> true =)
[18:36:12] <mrsun_> was thinking drum sander or something feels like a jointer would be prone to rip pieces out if its intricate work on the piece =)
[18:40:57] <Tom_itx> paint isn't that thick
[18:41:35] <Tom_itx> that or mask it
[18:42:00] <archivist> we used hard sealing wax on brass clock dials, then wet and dry (wet) till the brass is right then silver the brass
[18:43:14] <archivist> awkward process to melt into the engraving
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[18:56:54] <ReadError> mrsun_, i heard gel stain
[18:56:58] <ReadError> then sand the surface
[18:57:14] <ReadError> thats what r00tarded did
[19:01:11] <Tom_itx> same idea, just using rocks instead of cutters :)
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[19:14:36] <Loetmichel> mrsun_: i use simpe cheap wax crayons
[19:14:44] <Loetmichel> works like a charm
[19:15:03] <mrsun_> how do you use them ?
[19:15:45] <Loetmichel> searching...
[19:16:02] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/hajo/PowerKnoepfe.avi
[19:19:13] <Loetmichel> result: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=11570&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
[19:20:40] <mrsun_> oh thats quite neat but in my case its wooden signs i want to be able to just paint the text on in a simple way =)
[19:20:58] <mrsun_> https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/1376979_10151894105803648_1026019175_n.jpg
[19:21:01] <mrsun_> like those =)
[19:22:09] <Loetmichel> mrsun_: thats not so easy because the grain in the wood wil "suck up" any paint
[19:22:24] <mrsun_> mm
[19:22:34] <mrsun_> the birch i guess is easier then the pine
[19:23:18] <Loetmichel> it would have been better to paint the engraving surface with clear laquer and THEN lay out with any wax/paint
[19:23:50] <Loetmichel> spray paint the wood with clear paint
[19:24:03] <Loetmichel> wait 'til througly dry
[19:24:17] <Loetmichel> paint with desired colour
[19:24:18] <Loetmichel> wait 'til througly dry
[19:24:34] <Loetmichel> sand the top face until all paint is gone
[19:24:45] <Loetmichel> would be my way of doing that
[19:27:08] <mrsun_> the oposite is quite easy tho, stain it then route it :P
[19:27:19] <Loetmichel> mrsun_: had a problem with that on beechwood:
[19:27:21] <mrsun_> makes the text pop some but its the wood and coloured text i want =)
[19:27:40] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=11600
[19:27:54] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=11591
[19:27:59] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=11594
[19:28:26] <Loetmichel> especially in the last one sou can see the "bleeding" of the wax/paint
[19:28:46] <mrsun_> mm
[19:29:04] <mrsun_> i guess one could seal it with clearcoat first then paint it then sand it :P
[19:29:12] <mrsun_> to stop the bleeding into the fibres =)
[19:29:14] <mrsun_> fibers
[19:29:24] <mrsun_> ahh that might be what you said :P
[19:29:25] <mrsun_> hehe
[19:29:51] <Loetmichel> yes
[19:29:52] <Loetmichel> ;-)
[19:30:51] <Loetmichel> btw: my surname and that of my family is "buchholz" (beechwood).... hence the usbdrives in the same wood as a christmas present for my family ;-)
[19:31:33] <mrsun_> =)
[19:31:52] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=11582
[19:32:15] <Loetmichel> wasnt SO easy but worth the work i think ;-)
[19:33:43] <mrsun_> damn you cheap ... doing christmas presents by yourself and not buying them?! :P
[19:34:00] <mrsun_> some people seem to think like that when they get homemade presents =)
[19:34:46] <Loetmichel> not my family
[19:34:58] <mrsun_> =)
[19:35:05] <mrsun_> nah its a nice present =)
[19:35:08] <Loetmichel> we also have the rule that a single present for anyone cant exeed 50 eur
[19:35:47] <Loetmichel> so "cheap" isnt a possibility ;-)
[19:35:59] <Loetmichel> ahem "expensive" isnt.
[19:36:06] <Loetmichel> you know what i mean
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[20:15:12] <jp_mill> is it possible to short the step outputs on a 7i76?
[20:15:57] <andypugh> It's always possible. I guess your question is if it is a bad idea?
[20:16:25] <jp_mill> I think i found the answer unfortunately
[20:17:40] <jp_mill> now i have a single axis 7i76. Doh!
[20:17:56] <andypugh> I would actually be susprised if they weren't short-circuit proof.
[20:18:38] <jp_mill> the manual says the 5vp terminals have ptc protection
[20:20:25] <andypugh> pcw_home might know what has gone wrong.
[20:20:28] <jp_mill> but some how i managed to pooch stepgens 0-2
[20:20:46] <jp_mill> actually 0-3
[20:24:36] <andypugh> I found a use for G33 today. If you have a boring head like: https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Rwq66WXQfv3Ec7chknvoFNMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink then you can set it to auto-indeed and synch the Z to suit to get just the right taper: https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/ZcF1sqzrXp6yq9g3jGgBodMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink to make a tool tightening and measuring station:
[20:24:36] <andypugh> https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/GAxBYJhlBPaDnebMuVtoBtMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink
[20:27:19] <jp_mill> Pretty Trick!
[20:27:30] <jp_mill> Nice castings
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[20:37:51] <skunkworks> andypugh: very neat!~
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[20:50:38] * JT_Shop resists clicking on photos :(
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[21:13:22] <DJ9DJ> gn8
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[21:27:23] <Tom_itx> poor JT_Shop
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[21:31:17] <andypugh> When I turn off the motors on my mill, the knee drops on to the limit switch.
[21:31:26] <andypugh> This is vaguely annoying.
[21:32:21] <andypugh> I am wondering about putting a die-spring in the bottom of the knee so that the motor can pull the knee down to the switch, but it sits clear when it sinks.
[21:33:04] <andypugh> (adding a brake isn't easy, and a counterbalance is even harder)
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[21:33:18] <Tom_itx> does the weight just spin the motors reverse?
[21:33:29] <andypugh> Yes.
[21:33:45] <Tom_itx> not so practial to counterbalance that
[21:33:55] <Tom_itx> the spring may be the best bet
[21:34:46] <Tom_itx> shock mounts under it might work
[21:35:26] <andypugh> I have thought of all sorts of things, like a pneumatic cylinder pushing on the bottom of the leadscrew.
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[21:36:01] <andypugh> But there isn't enough room for anything that has the required force levels.
[21:36:12] <Tom_itx> no not on a knee mill
[21:36:17] <andypugh> (not over the whole range of motion, at least).
[21:36:35] <Jp11> Pneumatic cyl works but need large accumulator
[21:37:24] <andypugh> A regulated (relieving) cylinder is the perfect counterweight. But would eat a lot of air.
[21:41:13] <Jp11> If you had a large receiver to supply it you could just charge it to the required air pressure. No regulator needed
[21:41:17] <pcw_home> jp_mill: shorting one step/dir output or two probably wont hurt anything,
[21:41:57] <pcw_home> shorting many for a long time may destroy the driver chip
[21:42:04] <Jp11> Pcw_home: step gens 0-3 seem dead
[21:42:10] <andypugh> Are there individual enables?
[21:42:38] <andypugh> (I have a vague memory that the 7i77 PWMs are grouped)
[21:43:12] <pcw_home> There and no enables on the Step/Dir outputs
[21:43:13] <pcw_home> Did you tie one side of all to GND or VCC or something like that?
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[21:44:27] <jp_mill> I swapped the drives today for import leadshine type. I was using differential wiring
[21:45:05] <jp_mill> i thought the clone leadshines took differential in but they do not
[21:46:18] <pcw_home> so probably the side you _did not_ tie to power or ground is still OK
[21:46:39] <jp_mill> i thought that but i still get nothing
[21:47:55] <pcw_home> Thats odd: One octal buffer drives 0..3 + pins and an octal inverting buffer drives the 0..3 - pins
[21:48:19] <pcw_home> not likely to fry both
[21:48:39] <pcw_home> maybe the fried chip is pulling the 5V down
[21:49:01] <jp_mill> the last step gen on the other TB is ok
[21:49:52] <pcw_home> could be that the bad chip is shorting the FPGA pins
[21:50:01] <jp_mill> I thought i would of ended up taking out the PC supply as i am using cable power
[21:52:12] <Tom_itx> you would probably take out the cable before the supply
[21:52:17] <Tom_itx> due to a short
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[21:55:14] <jp_mill> whatever happened the whole card works less stepgens 0-3
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[22:02:02] <pcw_home> There are PTCs in the 5V power so its hard to hurt cables, but if you permanently
[22:02:03] <pcw_home> short all 8 outputs of an actal buffer, somethings got to give
[22:03:25] <andypugh> Is it worth trying the 7i72 on P2 rather than P3?
[22:03:45] <andypugh> (7i76 I mean)
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[22:05:47] <jp_mill> hmm thats a thought! would it be worth it pcw_home?
[22:06:12] <jp_mill> I still get 5V on the +step and +dir outputs
[22:07:04] <andypugh> On the DB25? In that case there is probably no point trying P2.
[22:09:39] <jp_mill> no at the 7i76
[22:09:46] <jp_mill> on tb 2
[22:10:24] <pcw_home> I would disconnect the 7I76 and verify that you have step/dir signals at the DB25
[22:10:50] <andypugh> Step/dir are sourced from the FPGA in the 5i25, so it may be worth checking the signals at the DB25 connector.
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[22:15:45] <jp_mill> if i change to the other db25 connector do i just change my hal references of 5i25.0 to 5i25.1?
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[22:22:29] <jp_mill> what dictates the use of p2 vs p3 on the 5i25?
[22:22:53] <pcw_home> no but the stepgen numbers / sserial port/encoder would change
[22:23:22] <jp_mill> what would they change to?
[22:23:49] <pcw_home> I dont recommend it though, if the 7I76 is shorting out the FPGA pins you risk damaging the 5I25 the more you play with it
[22:25:56] <jp_mill> So what would be best method to test.
[22:26:04] <jp_mill> via the db25
[22:36:35] <pcw_home> a LED/resistor or Voltmeter
[22:37:44] <pcw_home> I doubt if the 5I25 is affected you probably just fried one of the octal buffers
[22:37:45] <pcw_home> (were the outputs tied to GND or 5V?)
[22:45:56] <jp_mill> 5V
[22:52:53] <pcw_home> Yeah thats probably the worst case
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[22:53:07] <Jp11> Ah well guess I'll just get another one.
[22:54:02] <Jp11> Have to blow the dust off the 7i43 for now
[22:54:43] <andypugh> You could split out those wires and connect direct. Though with your record so far....
[22:55:54] <Jp11> Ha good one!! That's what happens when you take things for granted. I did know better.
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[22:58:10] <andypugh> So, you have perfectly good step signal out of the DB25 port, and everything else is working.
[22:59:12] <Jp11> Well I don't know if it's good at the db25 yet.
[22:59:51] <Jp11> Where can I find the pinout of the db25?
[23:00:56] <Jp11> firmware pin files?
[23:01:13] <andypugh> just look in dmesg
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[23:18:44] <MacGalempsy> evening guys
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[23:20:34] <andypugh> Hi
[23:20:43] <pcw_home> 7I76 manual
[23:21:28] <MacGalempsy> well good news. the guy with the benchman xt made a deal with me and it should be here in the next 2 weeks
[23:21:32] <pcw_home> (has DB 25 interface signals)
[23:22:10] <MacGalempsy> now time to start getting the other stuff lined up for the controller conversion...
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[23:30:22] <somenewguy> anything exciting in here today?
[23:36:19] <andypugh> I found a way to bore a tapered hole in a casting.
[23:36:52] <andypugh> A small sub-set of the world population would be excited by that.
[23:40:27] <archivist> I use the taper turning attachment on the lathe if I want that :)
[23:42:45] <cradek> andypugh: have you blued it and it matches a tool holder? that's a really cool boring head and a very clever trick.
[23:42:54] <archivist> I hate it when the attachment decides to operate when it is supposed to be sliding on the bed
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[23:45:19] <somenewguy> tell lme how to do that on a mill and I will get equally excited
[23:46:56] <archivist> what andypugh has done is on a mill
[23:47:02] <somenewguy> man, if only drivers were easier tofind
[23:47:12] <somenewguy> ok now im more interested
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[23:47:46] <somenewguy> I will probably need a bigger mill, but I had been looking at a projectthat needed such skill a while back a ndgot abandoned
[23:49:07] <somenewguy> I think I just finally ressurected the "permanent" CNC pc, and hopefully I can find a working video card driver for it and the latency will go to where it should be
[23:49:40] <somenewguy> otherwise it is back to trying to get Mr. "What is a BIOSagain?"up and running as he is the most powerfull but apparently that rainstorm really had its way with him
[23:50:40] <somenewguy> If a PC has 300,000 max jitter with onboard graphcis, what are theodds of adding a graphics card fixing that?
[23:50:55] <somenewguy> Ineed stepper quality latency, so it needs to go down a lot
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[23:58:03] <andypugh> cradek: Funny you should ask that question just as I was away bolting on the casting now that it has been painted, and testing the fit with blue. :-)
[23:58:31] <andypugh> The fit was OK for a holder, maybe not good enough for a height-setter.
[23:59:17] <andypugh> So I spent a few minutes (from the time stamps it can't have been more than 10 mins) with a scraper and now I reckon that the fit is good.