#linuxcnc | Logs for 2013-10-03

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[00:01:18] <somenewguy> jog wheel and axis select?
[00:01:37] <somenewguy> so like a spinny encoder thing for traveling the axis? and dedicated buttons for selecting which one
[00:02:13] <andypugh> You can actually run a stepper as a brushless servo as long as you have more than 6x as many encoder counts as steps (at which point it looks like a very-high pole-count brushless + hall sensor motor)
[00:02:14] <somenewguy> aoh, google turned it up
[00:02:40] <kwallace2> Cheap MPG:
[00:02:43] <kwallace2> http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/Shizuoka/mpg_proto-1a.jpg
[00:02:46] <somenewguy> I acutally have encoders that probably fit the bill sitting unused in a box here, but they are too expensive and not mine to play with sadly
[00:02:59] <somenewguy> took me forever to figure out what MPG was all about in Mach3 lol
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[00:08:06] <andypugh> If you look at my video again, (the first few seconds) there is a big bronze knob. (I had the material). That actually sits on one of these: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/160392668169
[00:08:41] <andypugh> For the front panel MPG cheap is fine.
[00:10:30] <somenewguy> oh cool
[00:10:40] <andypugh> You may miss steps at high speed, but are you counting?
[00:10:55] <kwallace2> The bronze knob is on one of those ebay encoders?
[00:10:59] <somenewguy> I mesed up my last newark order and need to get some more resistors, maybe I will see if there is a cheap encoder to nab
[00:11:09] <andypugh> kwallace2: Yes
[00:11:50] <Tom_itx> how many clicks per rev are those?
[00:12:10] <Tom_itx> i got similar from dk or mouser a while back
[00:12:21] <andypugh> (And, despite having a nice Mesa card, it is on a software encoder counter connected via GPIO, as my specific firmware is Resolver + Smart Serial.
[00:12:41] <Tom_itx> alps
[00:12:47] <andypugh> That one is 16 counts per turn
[00:12:48] <somenewguy> so you think the track ball mouse is a bad idea? I need to replace my mouse is the real issue, a regular ball mouse is uselss on a dented steel table
[00:13:55] <Tom_itx> http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/ALPS/EC11E15244B2/?qs=%2fha2pyFadugMG2RDp45gzKy3E%252bJw2bg9wyx%252blVW1GEpKn%2fqxa66ihw%3d%3d
[00:14:13] <andypugh> There is a specific HAL component to make low-count MPGs less annoying: http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/ilowpass.9.html
[00:14:31] <Tom_itx> what's it do?
[00:15:01] <Tom_itx> i used some element on mine i think, i forget what it was
[00:15:06] <andypugh> It pretneds that every count is 1000 counts and low-passes the result
[00:15:07] <Tom_itx> to smooth out the stepping
[00:15:14] <kwallace2> I prefer my shop made 100 counts per rev. encoder.
[00:15:21] <Tom_itx> maybe that was it...
[00:15:28] <Tom_itx> kwallace2, me too
[00:16:12] <andypugh> <top trumps> I have a spare Resolver I may use.
[00:17:14] <andypugh> But, in practical terms, the 16 counts per rev is _entirely_ OK, and I haven't even bothered with the ilowpass thing yet,
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[00:18:00] <kwallace2> I have some resolvers left over from removing them from my HNC. They hold the self down pretty well :)
[00:18:20] <andypugh> A single click at low speed 0.1mm per click goes "tonk" but that's not a problem.
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[00:18:40] <somenewguy> oh I guess I have one more good question left here
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[00:19:06] <somenewguy> I was digging into linuxcnc on my computer hoooked up to the mill for the first time last night, and realized i was in way over my head on the configs. I read the manuals for HAL and kinda when "huh"
[00:19:14] <andypugh> kwallace2: Resovers really are the best of all encoders, you should put them back.
[00:19:20] <somenewguy> I need to learn all the terms and software pieces involved with linux cnc
[00:19:21] <Tom_itx> andypugh, the 100 count are handy when i'm setting tools. i know what each click will get me
[00:19:56] <somenewguy> is there a flow chart/block diagram somewhere that shows what are the key moduals in linux cnc, what they do? I don't fully grasp the level or number of discrete pieces of software at play
[00:19:59] <kwallace2> The 100 count MPG allows me to more easily dial in locations and distances.
[00:20:12] <Tom_itx> same here
[00:20:20] <andypugh> somenewguy: Don't fret it. You will absorb it.
[00:20:50] <somenewguy> I figure I will get it eventualy (or give up and move back to mach3 but on newer hardware)
[00:21:04] <somenewguy> is there a good overview of how linuxCNC works?
[00:21:48] <somenewguy> for example when trying to toggle pins, reading the manual it is unclear if HAL toggles for me, or if I ask HAL to do it, or if HAL is called by some other program to do it, or if HAL just maps stuff for everyone else to play with
[00:21:54] <somenewguy> TLDR, I have no idea how linuxCNC works
[00:21:55] <andypugh> Well, as a user: G-code->Magic->Hal->Hardware Magic.
[00:21:58] <somenewguy> and want to learn
[00:22:19] <somenewguy> but i am a mechanical engineer, so I need someone to hold my hand
[00:22:27] <somenewguy> is there a top down description on the web somewhere?
[00:22:45] <andypugh> That was not meant to be condescending.
[00:23:39] <andypugh> I write the Hardware Magic part, but the G-code->Hal magic is still a mystery to me
[00:25:20] <somenewguy> haha
[00:25:39] <somenewguy> then can you tell me how to do one simple task but in gory detail?
[00:26:38] <andypugh> As a system integrator you need to get HAL first. The Interpreter converts G-code into position commands in HAL. These update every 1mS. The velocity, accel, and kinematics cleverness is all done above this level. In HAL we have axis.N.motor-pos-cmd. Where N is from 0 (X) to 8(W)
[00:29:01] <andypugh> Then, in HAL, we decide if that value needs to go to a stepgen, or a PID (For a servo) or a modbus request, or perhaps the colour of an LED. G0 B255 could easily set your room lighting to white.
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[00:29:40] <somenewguy> So g-code gets read by the inerperter and turns into a "I want to be here" command
[00:30:02] <somenewguy> which is passed to some other program that decides "How we get there from here"
[00:30:57] <somenewguy> which goes to HAL which translates "toggle SETTING" into "toggle PHYSICAL_DEVICE"
[00:31:25] <andypugh> Yes, pretty much
[00:32:26] <andypugh> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/motion.9.html are the main things that the G-code sends to HAL
[00:33:04] <andypugh> Then there are also : http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man1/halui.1.html Which can be very useful,
[00:33:23] <andypugh> and also http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man1/iocontrol.1.html
[00:33:50] <andypugh> The latter of which I intend to delete :-)
[00:34:21] <PCW> Fanuc CRC calc: (slow bit at a time way)
[00:34:23] <PCW> for index := 0 to 75 do { CRC-5 ITU }
[00:34:25] <PCW> begin
[00:34:27] <PCW> crcreg[0] := bitarray[75-index] xor oldcrcreg[4]; { CRC calculated MSB first }
[00:34:29] <PCW> crcreg[1] := oldcrcreg[0];
[00:34:31] <PCW> crcreg[2] := oldcrcreg[1] xor bitarray[75-index] xor oldcrcreg[4];
[00:34:33] <PCW> crcreg[3] := oldcrcreg[2];
[00:34:35] <PCW> crcreg[4] := oldcrcreg[3] xor bitarray[75-index] xor oldcrcreg[4];
[00:34:37] <PCW> oldcrcreg := crcreg;
[00:34:39] <PCW> end;
[00:35:08] <andypugh> (Because there is a layer above called NML that is transparently in flux)
[00:35:33] <somenewguy> my braiiiiin
[00:36:37] <andypugh> somenewguy: It's not complicated if you start from "what does my machine need to know"
[00:37:27] <somenewguy> lets go with "its not impossible to undertand..."
[00:37:33] <somenewguy> I maintain it is complicated
[00:38:23] <andypugh> The simplest possible 3-axis machine just needs to link a stepgen to each of axis.0.motor-pos-cmd, axis.1.motor-pos-cmd and axis.2.motor-pos-cmd.
[00:39:44] <andypugh> (and there are wizards to do that, but who trusts wizards?)
[00:40:02] <Tom_itx> where's the fun in that?
[00:41:08] <andypugh> I have used stepgen and pncconf to create a skeleton, but I am a real fan of actually understanding HAL.
[00:42:34] <andypugh> It is curious to think that there was resistance to the addition of HAL. I think it has very much become the Jewel in thr Crown of LinuxCNC
[00:42:58] <somenewguy> the wizard settings did not make sense for my g540 driver
[00:43:12] <somenewguy> way wrong default setttings it seemed, but I hardly understood half of it, and wasn't looking to get it right at the time
[00:43:24] <andypugh> G540 really ought to "Just Work"
[00:43:25] <somenewguy> but it sucesffully joggged my axis (the wrong amounts tho...)
[00:43:37] <somenewguy> I would think , isn't it a super common controller
[00:43:52] <somenewguy> by wizard I mean stepgen
[00:43:57] <andypugh> Aye, that it be
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[00:44:38] <andypugh> Stepconf + G540 ought to be too simple. What went wrong?
[00:44:50] <somenewguy> it defaulted to 2 microstepping
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[00:44:57] <somenewguy> and I am like 70% sure it is 10
[00:45:33] <jdh> I'll give you an extra 30%
[00:45:43] <somenewguy> also (and don't quote me on this, I rushed thru and didn't really care at the time since I was just testing the machine) when I noticed jogging 2 inches was really jogging close to 1, I doubled teh steps per rev
[00:45:56] <somenewguy> and the distance travled did not seem to double
[00:46:00] <andypugh> OK, Stepconf has no real idea what you have connected. It really can't tell.
[00:46:01] <somenewguy> more like a 50% increase
[00:46:16] <somenewguy> I thought I selected stepconf from a dropdown list tho
[00:46:19] <somenewguy> err
[00:46:26] <somenewguy> selected G540 from a drop down list
[00:46:54] <andypugh> Can't help, I really dont
[00:47:00] <andypugh> 'use stepconf.
[00:47:10] <somenewguy> I will throw a new drive in the pc tomorrow and install linuxCNC and ACTUALLY try and set it up this time
[00:47:20] <somenewguy> I was running it off the live cd to try and toggle a dang pin and FAILLED
[00:47:27] <somenewguy> oh can you help me with that?
[00:47:36] <somenewguy> the ONLY thing I want to do
[00:47:44] <somenewguy> is toggle pin 17 on my paralel port
[00:47:47] <somenewguy> thats it
[00:47:49] <somenewguy> nothing more
[00:47:52] <andypugh> I guess that this time you will at least understand the questions.
[00:48:00] <somenewguy> I like to hope so
[00:48:36] <somenewguy> also bigjohn converted my mach3 config to stepconf, so that should streamline everything
[00:48:48] <andypugh> Do you know your parport base address?
[00:49:09] <somenewguy> 0?
[00:49:12] <somenewguy> or the hex address
[00:49:26] <somenewguy> the answer is yes, jsut not infront of me right now
[00:49:33] <andypugh> 0 may work, 0x378 is likely
[00:49:53] <somenewguy> linuxCNC was able to jog my axis around using the parallel prot based on what the stepgen spat out
[00:50:03] <somenewguy> so it was probably 0x378
[00:51:05] <andypugh> OK, so, if you only want to toggle a pin (and as a demonstration that you can use LinuxCNC in a modular way)
[00:51:43] <andypugh> Open a terminal and type halrun
[00:52:05] * somenewguy is actually booting a laptop into linuxCNC so he can follow along w/o a mill infront of him
[00:52:37] <andypugh> You are now in a HAL prompt, and all the commands you see in the HAL file are now valid
[00:53:04] <Tom_itx> andypugh is that similar to sim?
[00:53:31] <Tom_itx> i'm not sure i've ever used that
[00:54:28] <andypugh> Tom_itx: No, it works for real hardware. You can load a custom GUI and control a machine with no G-code, for example.
[00:54:43] <Tom_itx> ahh
[00:55:13] <andypugh> Or, just load the parport driver and toggle pins,
[00:55:33] <andypugh> somenewguy: Ye back yet?
[00:55:40] <somenewguy> yeap
[00:55:47] <somenewguy> surrounded by moniters and low ond desk space
[00:56:52] <andypugh> Can you open a second terminal and then tail -f /var/log/kern<tab>
[00:57:55] <andypugh> Because that will give a clue when my instructions are wrong, (I am sat at a Mac :-)
[00:58:09] <somenewguy> in the hal prompt?
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[00:58:50] <andypugh> No, a separate bash terminal in a separate window
[01:00:01] <andypugh> You can skip that if you trust me to get it right, but even I don't
[01:00:36] <somenewguy> ok, rememer this is on a laptop, not the real machine
[01:00:44] <andypugh> That's fine.
[01:00:47] <somenewguy> ok
[01:00:56] <somenewguy> so it spat out a handfull of things
[01:01:15] <andypugh> does the lapdog acually have a parport?
[01:01:19] <somenewguy> and has a blinking cursor at the end, is it waiting for somethign?
[01:01:30] <somenewguy> derp
[01:01:31] <somenewguy> no
[01:01:36] <somenewguy> I have one that does have a parport
[01:01:40] <andypugh> That may not matter.
[01:02:05] <somenewguy> ... I keep typing int othe wrong keyboards
[01:03:14] <andypugh> Yeah, i only have one keyboard, but normally have about 3 machines open (VMs, SS-X and VNC) so make the inverse mistake
[01:03:37] <somenewguy> I immediatly regret not SSHing in
[01:03:46] <somenewguy> but anyways, did you need need something from the output of that?
[01:04:11] <somenewguy> and why is it blinking waiting for a return?
[01:04:45] <andypugh> loadrt hal_parport cfg="0"
[01:05:26] <andypugh> Any output?
[01:05:43] <somenewguy> command not found
[01:05:50] <somenewguy> loadrt
[01:06:03] <andypugh> exit
[01:06:29] <andypugh> uname -r
[01:07:20] <somenewguy> 2.6.32-122-rtai
[01:07:28] <somenewguy> i didn't type exit
[01:07:37] <andypugh> Hmm, odd,
[01:08:28] <andypugh> So, what happened when you typed "halrun" ?
[01:08:39] <somenewguy> got a hal prompt
[01:08:49] <somenewguy> seperate window, did i need to enter any of those commands into halprompt?
[01:09:14] <andypugh> Ah, I was unclear.
[01:09:46] <andypugh> Yes, from now on the tail -f window is loggging-only
[01:10:05] <andypugh> You need to type in the halrun window
[01:10:37] <andypugh> So, at the halrun prompt, loadrt hal_parport cfg="0"
[01:10:47] <somenewguy> oh ok
[01:11:32] <somenewguy> can't find module 'hal_parptport....
[01:11:35] <somenewguy> how did that t get in there
[01:11:46] <somenewguy> no such device error
[01:12:14] <andypugh> Well, so, as you said, you have no parport :-)
[01:12:36] <somenewguy> luckily I booted up laptop #2, which has a prallel port
[01:12:45] <somenewguy> let me retry those steps over there
[01:12:57] <andypugh> loadrt hal_parport cfg="0x378"
[01:13:26] <somenewguy> clicked thru happily
[01:13:56] <somenewguy> saw config string 0x378 in the other window (back on the machien that does NOT have a parllel port)
[01:13:59] <somenewguy> sorry, ADD over here on this end
[01:14:21] <somenewguy> failed to tell you the machine with the parallel port said "operation not permitted"
[01:14:52] <andypugh> Can I just stress that just because Linux + LinuxCNC lets you access your hardware from the command line, you really don't need to do it this way normally. But you can.
[01:15:27] <somenewguy> linux doesn't scare me , but that is good to know
[01:15:40] <somenewguy> I suck at linux, and general hardcore computer usage, but I do enjoy struggling at it
[01:15:51] <somenewguy> when something finally works it feels good, even if tis a fleeting victory
[01:16:28] <andypugh> Operation Not permitted is a puzzle.
[01:16:54] <andypugh> Are you still in the halcmd prompt?
[01:17:43] <somenewguy> yeah, should I just stick with the laptop without the lptport?
[01:18:09] <andypugh> Either should work.
[01:18:11] <somenewguy> come to think of it, I just remembered the laptop WITH the lptport actually failed at loading the latency test, so it may have a deep down issue w/ linuxcnc
[01:18:35] <andypugh> 'Tis possible.
[01:18:46] <somenewguy> so, back ot the original laptop with no lptport (running off a live cd)
[01:19:05] <somenewguy> it loaded 0x378 no problem
[01:19:35] <andypugh> Either should work with 0x378 ( but the output may not go to anywhere phyisical)
[01:21:02] <andypugh> Right, to toggle the parport but you don't have: setp parport.0.pin-17-out 1
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[01:21:35] <andypugh> And then to reset it: setp parport.0.pin-17-out 0
[01:21:51] <somenewguy> man I got soooo (kinda) close trying to do that last night
[01:21:55] <somenewguy> but thats it?
[01:22:06] <somenewguy> no need to set pin 17 as output prior to that?
[01:22:07] <andypugh> (and, this is actually all that stepgen does, but faster)
[01:22:32] <somenewguy> thank you so much for the help
[01:22:50] <somenewguy> as I said, I tried to RTFM but it was a good bit of information overload
[01:22:58] <andypugh> No, parport pins are hard-wired input or output.
[01:23:31] <somenewguy> I saw some things about setting direction on pins, but had no real grasp of what it was trying to say, and if it applied at the hardware or abstraction level
[01:23:32] <andypugh> You _can_ switch the mode to alter the hard-wiring.
[01:24:05] <andypugh> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/hal/parallel_port.html
[01:24:40] <andypugh> The parport can be "in" or "out"
[01:26:52] <andypugh> And _some_ parports can be "x" where if you set the output high, you can read it as an input. Or, you can kill the port, so that is semi-undocumented
[01:27:26] <somenewguy> hahaha wheee grey areas
[01:27:31] <somenewguy> like the proper spelling of gray
[01:28:03] <somenewguy> so to understand what I just did
[01:28:21] <somenewguy> I started up an interface with HAL
[01:28:39] <andypugh> The Mesa and Pico cards allow pins to have their directions individually set
[01:28:50] <somenewguy> loaded the driver for my parallel port at the address 0x378
[01:29:16] <somenewguy> then used HAL to set a pin, specifically the one on parport 0, pin 17, and set it high to 1
[01:29:20] <andypugh> "halrun" actually starts the whole reatime system
[01:29:37] <somenewguy> so I turned on HAL?
[01:29:46] <somenewguy> or is hal part of the "reatime system"
[01:30:40] <andypugh> I don't actually know how to answer that question.
[01:30:45] <somenewguy> oh Ididn't load the driver for my port
[01:30:54] <somenewguy> i loaded the HAL controls for said port
[01:30:56] <somenewguy> methinks
[01:31:00] <andypugh> Oh, you loaded a driver
[01:31:05] <somenewguy> I don't konw how to ask it
[01:32:50] <somenewguy> but just knowing how to ACTUALLY type in these command, and where, makes reading the manual a good 10x more likely to yield usefull info for me
[01:33:36] <andypugh> Halrun starts the realtime environment. That could be RTAI (in your case it _will_ be RTAI) or it could be Xenomai or RT_PREEMPT or Posix. This depends on your kernel (if this is a LiveCD load it will be RTAI)
[01:34:42] <andypugh> I did actually forget a most crucial step in the commands
[01:35:16] <somenewguy> sacraficial chicken?
[01:36:07] <andypugh> A HAL driver is a realtime component. What this means is that it needs to be called at a fixed interval by a realtime thread.
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[01:36:36] <andypugh> And we didn't start any threads
[01:37:28] <andypugh> (A thread is just a list of functions that are called _very_ regularly.
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[01:38:15] <somenewguy> so if I issued those commands on the pc actually connected to my g540, the pin would not have toggled?
[01:39:17] <andypugh> When I say "regularly" this is not McDonalds "Regular", the meaning of which is "what we prefer not to sell", I mean at a very fixed frequency
[01:39:53] <somenewguy> I follow your meaning
[01:40:08] <somenewguy> what it means in application is a little fuzzier
[01:40:19] <andypugh> Indeed, the pin would not have toggled because I fotrgot stuff.
[01:41:31] <andypugh> In a typical HAL file you will see "loadrt motmod" which loads the motion planner and starts some thread.
[01:41:49] <andypugh> You don't need that.
[01:42:19] <andypugh> A complete hal session to toggle a pin is:
[01:42:22] <andypugh> halrun
[01:42:32] <andypugh> loadrt threads
[01:43:09] <andypugh> loadrt hal_parport cfg="0x378"
[01:44:29] <andypugh> addf parport.0.read thread1
[01:44:52] <andypugh> (actuallly, to toggle an output you can skip that)
[01:45:56] <andypugh> addf parport.0.write thread1
[01:46:08] <andypugh> But you do need that
[01:47:03] <andypugh> You have now linked your read and write "functions" to a thread each. (thread1, the defaut(
[01:47:24] <andypugh> But nothing will happen until:]
[01:47:29] <andypugh> start
[01:47:48] <andypugh> Which starts the realtime threads
[01:49:35] <andypugh> So, it is a lot like what we first did, with the extra complication fo saying exactly _when_ we wanted to do it.
[01:50:32] <somenewguy> when we say "toggle" do we mean flip the pin state continuosly, or just set it high?
[01:50:47] <somenewguy> I don't quite understand what command in there sets the pin state
[01:51:12] <somenewguy> addf parport.0.write thread1 makes parport0 whatever state it should be
[01:51:13] <andypugh> setp <pin name> 1 sets it high
[01:51:30] <andypugh> setp <pin name> 0 sets it low
[01:51:34] <somenewguy> ok
[01:51:41] <somenewguy> so the above commands
[01:53:05] <somenewguy> allow me to THEN LATER use the setp function to set pin states
[01:53:05] <somenewguy> at will
[01:53:05] <somenewguy> the other commands setup the magick in the background to listen to me send out those setp commands
[01:53:05] <andypugh> the "addf" tells the system how often you want to update the parport. By default thread1 runs every 1mS
[01:55:00] <somenewguy> ok
[01:55:05] <somenewguy> this is a huge step forwards in understanding
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[01:55:26] <somenewguy> so setp sets the desired state of the pin to what I want
[01:55:48] <somenewguy> and then the next time thread1 runs (which will be soon lol) it will take care of the nitty gritty of actually making that pin as desired
[01:55:53] <andypugh> In a typical software stepping system you don't have "thread1" you have "base-thread" which runs every 25uS to 100uS depending on how you set it up, and "servo-thread" which is every 1mS (but _will_ be interupted by the fast thread. Not that you will notice)
[01:56:49] <andypugh> And yes, you have it
[01:58:04] <somenewguy> hot dog
[01:58:15] <somenewguy> thank you for taking the time to explain it to the luddites here
[01:58:25] <andypugh> Except "setp" is only one way to set the value of a pin. You can (and often will) link it to a "signal" in HAL (think of that as a unique wire colour for the time being)
[01:58:51] <somenewguy> the signal thing I noticed a lot of trying to use the actual machien control in linuxCNC
[01:59:16] <somenewguy> the concept was clear by the end of all the reading, but again the implementation was completly lost on me, but I suspect taht will be obvious once I actually have a config file infront of me
[02:00:25] <Tom_itx> here's a set i use on my sherline: http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/cnc/configs/sherline/
[02:00:59] <andypugh> So, net blue => parport.0.pin-17-out will set the value of the pin to follow the "blue" signal. You can call it after your wife if you want. The first word after "net" is your choice
[02:01:53] <andypugh> But, the "pins" that follow have to exist.
[02:03:24] <andypugh> (you can add <= and => and <=> to show signal flow if you want, they make for a clearer HAL file but are _only_ for human consumption, they mean nothing to the machine)
[02:04:16] <somenewguy> so if parport0.pin-17-out got set low, blue would update?
[02:04:21] <somenewguy> or is it left to right heirachy
[02:04:39] <somenewguy> update meaning blue would also become low
[02:05:07] <andypugh> That is the right question :-)
[02:05:54] <andypugh> Any "net" with a signal name can have one "writer" and any number of readers.
[02:08:12] <andypugh> So, if pin 17 is an input pin in to HAL (ie a "writer) (and, to be honest, I have no idea about parports any more) then every other pin in that net has to be a HAL "in" pin (ie, a "reader")
[02:08:40] <andypugh> That wasn't very clear
[02:10:39] <andypugh> If pin 17 supplies a value then every other pin in that net has to be a "reader". If it takes a value it can be one of many readers, bit will no change value unless there is a "writer" in the net
[02:11:54] <andypugh> "Setp" is a one-time thing, either at system-start when the HAL file is read, or at the instant you type the commabd
[02:12:08] <somenewguy> so we have a bunch or only one of followers, and then a highlander of a writer
[02:12:27] <andypugh> Aye, that works
[02:12:43] <somenewguy> and the first one is the writer I assume
[02:12:49] <somenewguy> and then you could stack a list after it of readers
[02:13:06] <somenewguy> or do they need to be defined on seperate lines
[02:13:16] <somenewguy> also si reader and writer technical terms, or just what you call them?
[02:13:25] <andypugh> No, the "writer" is the "out" pin in the net. There can be only one :-
[02:14:25] <andypugh> If you look at the mpdules in the docs, the pins have specified directions.
[02:15:38] <andypugh> A typical manpage: http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/encoder.9.html
[02:16:21] <andypugh> You will see how the pins are "out" or "in"
[02:16:33] <somenewguy> ah ok, so by thier nature pins are readers or writers
[02:16:39] <andypugh> Yes.
[02:17:02] <somenewguy> so assigning them to a net has zero bearing on that
[02:17:04] <somenewguy> got it
[02:17:50] <somenewguy> ok now for a much simpler top level question, just need a name to google and not all the details
[02:18:07] <andypugh> Parport input pins are of course, outputs (they write to HAL) and output pins are inputs (they take a value from HAL and send it to the world)
[02:18:32] <somenewguy> and pins that have both directions?
[02:18:36] <somenewguy> they have seperate
[02:18:48] <somenewguy> they have seperate "pins" in hal by different names, which map to the same physical pin?
[02:18:48] <PCW> andypugh: I notice positive timer-us values are early and negative are late
[02:19:16] <andypugh> PCW: yes. I can switch if you prefer
[02:20:02] <andypugh> No, i/o pins are awkward creatures.
[02:20:13] <somenewguy> haha ok
[02:20:18] <somenewguy> maybe I should stop here for now
[02:20:21] <somenewguy> while I still have a sense of reality
[02:20:32] <somenewguy> play with the software a bit more and then I can pick your brain a bit more
[02:20:36] <andypugh> The best example of an io
[02:21:30] <PCW> Not sure I have a preference
[02:21:52] <andypugh> pin is "index-enable" to an encoder, where the system sets the pin high to say "I am waiting for index" and the encoder sets it low to say "there it was"
[02:23:32] <andypugh> But many other pins are i/o pins because the expectation is that you will set then with a "setp" but might, possibly, want to dislay them in a GUI.
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[02:25:41] <andypugh> PCW: To me minus means early and plus means late. That is how we time engines. Except the 50% of the time we do it the other way with a different wet-side supplier. So I have no preference either.
[02:26:24] <somenewguy> ok so here is a simple question
[02:26:41] <somenewguy> i was surprised at how bare the linuxCNC gui was when i opened it
[02:26:44] <andypugh> But - for early and + for late feels a little more logical. (ie, the reverse of the current scaling)
[02:26:49] <somenewguy> and hten i paused and thought for a second and it made sense
[02:27:12] <somenewguy> if I want to look online for a more pre-made or populated interface, does it exist? is there a project name I should google and find more info for?
[02:27:50] <andypugh> Which GUI were you using? We have a choice of many.
[02:28:20] <andypugh> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gui/axis.html
[02:28:35] <andypugh> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gui/touchy.html
[02:28:58] <andypugh> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gui/tklinuxcnc.html
[02:29:12] <andypugh> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gui/mini.html
[02:29:27] <andypugh> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gui/keystick.html
[02:29:55] <andypugh> (Keystick is arguably not a GUI, just a UI)
[02:30:39] <somenewguy> well then
[02:31:33] <Tom_itx> you can populate the GUI as you like
[02:31:45] <somenewguy> 4 axis mill, no touch screen, hopefully to have coolant soon
[02:31:58] <somenewguy> tom, yes that is the beauty of linux, and I can and will modify them in the future
[02:32:18] <somenewguy> but i find for me atleast it is better to start with something that works so I can 'take it apart' and understand it and then mod it
[02:32:23] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/cnc/screenshot.png
[02:32:25] <andypugh> I am guessing you were in Axis. You can add to Axis: This is how Axis looks on my lathe:
[02:32:26] <andypugh> http://www.linuxcnc.org/index.php/english/forum/41-guis/26550-lathe-macros#34357
[02:32:30] <somenewguy> this stuff doesn't exactly come natural to me so Ineed the help
[02:32:31] <Tom_itx> that's got a few things added to it
[02:32:49] <somenewguy> mine looked like whatever tom just posted
[02:32:59] <somenewguy> without the speedo on the right
[02:33:01] <Tom_itx> you can add those
[02:33:24] <Tom_itx> all that is in the config i posted earlier
[02:33:27] <somenewguy> ok so what you posted is axis
[02:33:33] <Tom_itx> yes
[02:33:37] <somenewguy> which I duitifully downloaded for later analysis
[02:33:58] <somenewguy> FWIW when you launch axis in linuxCNC it looks like you are launching "linuxCNC" so I was confused
[02:34:15] <andypugh> Then there are fully-editable GUIs like gscreen: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Gscreen
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[02:34:22] <somenewguy> I notice the axis.ngc in the top bar now
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[02:34:44] <andypugh> One variant of which is http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Gmoccapy
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[02:35:17] <somenewguy> any which are easiest to use, or most popular and thefore easier to find answers for?
[02:35:36] <somenewguy> man every answer you guys give me just leads to 4 more questions
[02:35:50] <somenewguy> here is a big one I keep forgetting about, and I am sure I will figureo ut soon enough
[02:36:04] <somenewguy> how many discrete config files are there to run a machine using linuxCNC?
[02:36:12] <andypugh> There is actually not a lot wrong with Axis.
[02:36:18] <somenewguy> in a typical setup I guess I should say
[02:36:28] <somenewguy> then I will stick with axis since I already have it
[02:37:28] <Tom_itx> it works for me
[02:37:37] <andypugh> It actually mainly does everything you want. it's not great in a touch-screen. Touchy is good on a touch-sceen but hurts during the machine dev stage
[02:37:56] <somenewguy> fine by me, no touch screen and unlikly to get one
[02:38:05] <somenewguy> I just need to be up and running as fast as possible
[02:38:25] <somenewguy> also it sounds like all the config files are lumped into one folder
[02:38:27] <andypugh> There are an infinite number of configs.
[02:38:29] <somenewguy> is that true?
[02:38:33] <somenewguy> or are there a few stragglers
[02:38:52] <somenewguy> seeing as how "linuxCNC" isn't really a program but a big ole pile of em
[02:39:44] <somenewguy> I guess I could sum up the question, I see a few key pieces of functionality to a CNC computer, maybe you can tell me how many config files are involved
[02:40:01] <somenewguy> I have to be able to controll my steppers, so I need to konw what pins are involved, and max min speeds etc
[02:40:26] <somenewguy> I need to know how fast I can pulse those drivers, I need to know the dimensions and soft limits for my mill
[02:40:33] <somenewguy> I need to konw waht all the buttons in the gui do
[02:40:40] <Tom_itx> you can get by with the .ini and .hal but if you want to add stuff you need a few more
[02:40:54] <somenewguy> phew
[02:41:03] <somenewguy> consolidated configurations is a godsend
[02:41:09] <andypugh> Both of my machines run three configs each, for example. The mill/lathe can be started as a lathe or a mill (the axes change names) Or it can be a gear hobber ( a different mapping between axes(
[02:41:36] <somenewguy> and all that good stuff comes out of the .ini and .hal files
[02:41:44] <somenewguy> that is music to my ears
[02:42:07] <Tom_itx> it's where you mate the software to the hardware
[02:42:20] <andypugh> The INI is the "config" you see in the config picker.
[02:42:54] <somenewguy> I think you guys just knocked 2 weeks off of me learning how to use my machine
[02:43:04] <somenewguy> winblows can go die in a fire after what it did to me thismorning
[02:43:06] <andypugh> The ini loads one or more HAL files, and (optionally) passes data to them.
[02:43:20] <somenewguy> makes sense
[02:44:42] <andypugh> So the HAL file can say stepgen.0.scale - 100 or it can say stepgen.0.scale = [AXIS_0]STEPGEN_SCALE
[02:46:10] <andypugh> (I actually prefer the first, and I edit my HAL files. But I think most folk edit the INI file. You just have to check that the HAL file is actually "looking")
[02:48:27] <somenewguy> so one hal file can be generic for a single computer and i/o, but work with multiple machines based on .ini selection
[02:48:33] <somenewguy> vs having an ini and hal for each machine
[02:49:47] <andypugh> Yes.
[02:50:10] <somenewguy> cool
[02:50:28] <somenewguy> also ur thread cutting stuff deffinatly has a pretty interface!
[02:51:45] <somenewguy> so assuming that tool you have shown on the page you linked to me is typical of a linuxcnc macro
[02:52:07] <somenewguy> do you put in values into those boxes and hit play and it does the turning operation you coded it to?
[02:52:13] <andypugh> The other lathe ops look the same, bit the underlying graphic is specific to the operation. It works for me and one-offs, but is embedded as a tab in Axis, so I have the conventional GUI if and when I want it.
[02:52:19] <somenewguy> or does it spit g-code into the window below to do the operation?
[02:53:38] <andypugh> Yes, that is exactly how it works. But if I load a G-code file in Axis and press the menu-bar play button it runs the Gcode just like any other machine
[02:54:49] <somenewguy> so it actually just does it
[02:55:01] <somenewguy> obviously tomorrow I just need to go out and actually try to use it for the first time
[02:55:19] <somenewguy> and I will sound like less of an idiot, but just trying to sort out how things work now
[02:55:21] <somenewguy> whee
[02:55:53] <somenewguy> I hate hate hate the way mach3 handles "wizards" and g-code, and how hard it is to concatonate things intelligently, but that is more me not understanding how to implemnt subroutines
[02:55:55] <somenewguy> stupid syntax
[02:56:05] <somenewguy> I look forward to trying this out tomoorow
[02:56:13] <andypugh> My system runs a subroutine. But, if you _want_ to spit G-code into the window, and optionally concatente and combine G-code routines, then we can do that too: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gui/ngcgui.html
[02:56:36] <somenewguy> I came across this, I think you linked me to it yesterday
[02:56:44] <somenewguy> which will be all manner of awesome
[02:57:13] <somenewguy> currently I keep makine a whole lot of "exactly" the same part with very minor tweaks, so being able to avoid duplicating effort every time will be a huge step forward
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[02:58:45] <somenewguy> it says there is a demo ngcgui available on the install
[02:58:47] <andypugh> This is Open Source software. Most of the things you think might be nice have been thought nice by someone else, and implemented, if not very well documented.
[02:59:46] <somenewguy> so the demo ngcui is a lie?
[02:59:51] <somenewguy> just not seeing it on 10.04
[03:00:16] <somenewguy> and yeah, I have that same love/hate/hate relationship w/ Os for a long time now
[03:00:26] <somenewguy> its why I keep coming back
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[03:00:33] <somenewguy> its like an abusive relationship w/ a beautiful woman
[03:00:49] <andypugh> 10,04 is a Ubuntu version. What is your LinuxCNC version?
[03:01:37] * Tom_itx heads to sleep
[03:02:30] <somenewguy> gnight and thanks!
[03:02:53] <andypugh> One example of the obscure stuff: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man1/linuxcncrsh.1.html
[03:02:56] <somenewguy> uh the released live cd w/ 10.04, just got it recently
[03:03:13] <somenewguy> OH found the demo of ngcgui, was hiding under sim
[03:03:22] <somenewguy> now I finally know what everyone talks about when they say "sim"
[03:03:49] <somenewguy> hahaha axis wont opeon on either laptop
[03:04:03] <somenewguy> "real time system did not load"
[03:05:26] <andypugh> 0400 here, and work in a few hours (yikes). I hope someone else helps you with that. :-)
[03:05:27] <somenewguy> sounds like I should go ahead and get back to doing work now
[03:05:38] <somenewguy> haha yeah
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[07:15:40] <DJ9DJ> moin
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[08:37:07] <mrsun_> hmm i think i figured out my drag problem on the cnc machine, if i get 4 pulleys, put one in each corner .. rigidly, then pull a wire from the driving side and around the machine and back, fasten the driven side to the wire, and as the machine moves the driving side it will pull the other side with it using the wire =)
[08:37:11] <mrsun_> think this could work ? :)
[08:37:18] <mrsun_> no
[08:37:19] <mrsun_> it wont
[08:37:20] <mrsun_> dammit
[08:37:27] <mrsun_> it will pull int he oposit direction :P
[08:37:33] <mrsun_> if i do not cross it under the machine
[08:37:35] <mrsun_> i could do that also
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[10:27:37] <jthornton> mrsun_, look at how a drafting table square is mounted using wire and pulleys
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[11:39:25] <gonzo___> has anyone here used the mesa cards with 422 inputs, can answer a question?
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[11:49:36] <archivist_herron> try asking the real question
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[11:53:07] <skunkworks> pcw_home, I have a 8168 rtpinging right now. Using this rt_r8169.c
[11:53:09] <skunkworks> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=31389885
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[11:53:48] <skunkworks> I had to remark out #include <asm/system.h>
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[13:12:25] <sirdancealot> so what do you guys think about the farmbot?
[13:12:50] <archivist> nothing because I never saw it
[13:13:55] <sirdancealot> http://wiki.farmbot.it/Welcome
[13:16:30] <sirdancealot> well thats how it 'could' look
[13:19:21] <jdh> that looks like a solution in search of a problem.
[13:19:31] <malcom2073> Heh, when you have a hammer
[13:19:32] <cradek> wow, no kidding
[13:19:43] <archivist> serious design error as a plow
[13:19:48] <cradek> plow, haha
[13:19:56] <jdh> someone got an arduino and was desperate to find a project for it.
[13:20:10] <cradek> and it's a sprinkler too
[13:20:26] <archivist> clue of forces involved at a farm needed
[13:20:27] <cradek> an arduino and a good heart
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[13:22:29] <malcom2073> But hey, if you wanted to plant sunflower seeds in a pattern to make words you could read from an airplane... this would do it :)
[13:22:33] <archivist> plants also do not grow to a cnc amenable shape
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[13:23:24] <cradek> the solution to people not having enough food is birth control, not cnc
[13:24:09] <cradek> I should start a kickstarter for "give everyone access to birth control"
[13:24:17] <cradek> all I'd need is a plan
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[13:25:27] <jdh> first, get the pope on board.
[13:25:46] <skunkworks> he seems more open minded then the last bunch
[13:25:48] <cradek> seems there's a bit better chance lately
[13:26:08] <cradek> step 1. I become pope ... somehow
[13:26:09] <jdh> popes rarely breed
[13:26:12] <cradek> haha
[13:26:16] <archivist> its like those laser controlled tractors to get one extra row of carrots in a field
[13:26:59] <malcom2073> All the "advantages" of that thing, seem to be covered by the automated equipment they have now, except the open-source of course.
[13:27:08] <cradek> > The user experience will be similar to some video games such as SimCIty and Farmville
[13:27:46] <malcom2073> haha
[13:27:58] <malcom2073> There's the target market. People who don't farm anyway?
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[13:30:29] <cradek> the idea of using some new kind of machinery to farm vertically is interesting
[13:30:43] <cradek> I bet there are some good ideas in here
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[13:31:10] <malcom2073> I think it's a novel idea, but as archivist mentioned, there are some significant forces involved in farming. You'd need some serious horsepower and machine structure to accomplish that
[13:31:17] <malcom2073> seeding and watering is easy of course
[13:31:21] <malcom2073> force-wise
[13:31:22] <archivist> there is already some vertical stuff in Singapore
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[13:38:48] <IchGuckLive> hi all B)
[13:38:54] <IchGuckLive> holiday in germany
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[13:43:31] <ReadError> farmbot lol
[13:43:38] <ReadError> they dont even have pics of a built one?
[13:44:55] <archivist> it would be a broken one
[13:45:45] <IchGuckLive> farmbot is a wear thing
[13:45:59] <IchGuckLive> italian always do alot of wear things like berlusconie
[13:46:55] <IchGuckLive> in our university they plant salat in a spiral that rotates for 30 days to get them grown outwards inside a dome
[13:47:15] <IchGuckLive> every day 50 salats to the mensa
[13:48:47] <IchGuckLive> farmbot is consept on a palt growhousee style better to go chain and as long as the growhouse is
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[13:51:30] <sirdancealot> all hail the hypnosalad
[13:52:09] <IchGuckLive> no sand no sun no ... just bio
[13:52:18] <archivist> I can see a use at a "weed" farm
[13:52:31] <archivist> wernt me guv it was the bot
[13:54:05] <jdh> hydroponics woudl be better for that in small areas
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[13:57:29] <gonzo___> OK, full question.... The mesa cards that have 422 i/o, I can see that it's possible to use the outputs single ended, but is it possible to drive the inputs with single ended signals??
[13:59:03] <jdh> you might need a bias voltage
[13:59:56] <gonzo___> jdh, do you mean hold one of the diff pair at half rail?
[14:00:02] <jdh> yes
[14:00:29] <archivist> or convert your signal to differential
[14:00:29] <gonzo___> interesting. do youb know the diff threshold for the cards?
[14:01:25] <jdh> not offhand. You might ask PCW when he is around.
[14:01:51] <gonzo___> thanks, will do.
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[14:06:36] <CaptHindsight> maybe if it could plant something that when eaten it would suppress the compulsion to control others
[14:08:05] <jdh> <pcw_home> then a 2.5 V threshold would be the best noise immunity wise
[14:11:01] <IchGuckLive> CaptHindsight: there is the fukushima field attempt http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_WuJ9P1u-k
[14:11:02] <pcw_home> Which daughter card is this for?
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[14:14:01] <CaptHindsight> IchGuckLive: that solution is only for growing food more efficiently, it doesn't do anything about the compulsive obsessive need to gain power problem
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[14:16:02] <IchGuckLive> itsa a guess on seald farming in a hazzardes envirement to get clean food to peoples
[14:16:59] <IchGuckLive> its just a goverment projekt so its not mention about it
[14:17:07] <IchGuckLive> waste of money always
[14:19:10] <IchGuckLive> CaptHindsight: only the goods is free and lots of salat in the menas al the time as it is not alowed to sell it to the outside world O.O
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[14:21:50] <IchGuckLive> im off till later By
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[14:22:04] <gonzo___> pcw_home, I'm looking at the 7i47-S
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[14:34:56] <jdh> is the -S newish?
[14:34:59] <pcw_home> its a bit awkward but possible: If you disable termination (a jumper option),
[14:35:01] <pcw_home> You can tie a set of inputs to 1.6V (for TTL levels) or 2.5V for 5V levels
[14:35:02] <pcw_home> and then use the other input of the pair as a single ended input
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[14:37:03] <gonzo___> jdh, not sure. I've only just started looking at the interfacing side of the project
[14:38:01] <gonzo___> pcw_home, That sounds doable. The card has a useful combination of outputs, but the differential inputs were my concern.
[14:38:39] <pcw_home> if you have a bunch of TTL level inputs, you may be better off with another daughtercard
[14:38:50] <jdh> get another daughterboad for inputs (7i37ta)
[14:40:07] <gonzo___> that was the plan if I could not get a robust way of feeding the 7i47S
[14:40:11] <CaptHindsight> can your application get by with TTL or do you need 422?
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[14:40:56] <gonzo___> I need a mix. and the 7i47S has an analogue out that is useful
[14:41:20] <jdh> I have a plain 7i47, the analog would be nice
[14:41:22] <CaptHindsight> I just got a 7i47s to play with
[14:43:38] <gonzo___> the analogue and 422 woudl give me options for spindle control (0-10V or RS485). the 422 outputs would be nice to allow me to drive differential if required.
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[14:44:12] <JT-Shop> freaking head keeps moving up on the BP :(
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[16:35:53] <ktchk> Hi any servo motor user arround?
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[16:36:44] <ktchk> 80volt servo motor which power board and controller?
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[16:37:21] <ktchk> encoder is 1000 per rev.
[16:38:45] <kwallace2> I use Pico's PWM amps. http://pico-systems.com/pwmservo.html
[16:39:04] <kwallace2> Mesa should have something similar.
[16:39:49] <kwallace2> http://www.wallacecompany.com/cnc_lathe/HNC/00013-1a.jpg
[16:39:56] <ktchk> Can it take encoder feed back?
[16:40:16] <ktchk> Or have to go back via controller
[16:40:23] <ktchk> to pc
[16:42:46] <cradek> all the setups that work well with linuxcnc have the encoder feedback go to the pc
[16:43:11] <archivist> via an fpga card
[16:43:19] <ktchk> Via what controller?
[16:43:25] <kwallace2> My encoders go to the Pico board then LinuxCNC does the feedback and PID.
[16:44:19] <ktchk> mesa?
[16:44:35] <kwallace2> The Pico FPGA board is the larger green board: http://www.wallacecompany.com/cnc_lathe/HNC/00012-1a.jpg
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[16:44:51] <IchGuckLive> hi all B)
[16:45:38] <kwallace2> A Mesa 5i25 could run Pico PWM amps well.
[16:45:49] <ktchk> Pico FPGA goes back printer board or a pci board?
[16:46:30] <ktchk> printer port
[16:47:10] <kwallace2> The Pico FPGA connects to an EPP parallel port. I would tend to use a 5i25 or 6i25 instead.
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[16:48:36] <ktchk> What if compare to a stepper motor + 5x gear box?
[16:49:15] <kwallace2> Why do you need a gearbox?
[16:49:34] <jp_mill> so i need to attach a timing pulley to a lead screw with a threaded end. I cant turn the threads down. but i could add an extension on if i wanted to. thoughts?
[16:49:48] <IchGuckLive> i work on 5i25 7i76 with 6:1 gear
[16:50:02] <IchGuckLive> at 12m/min speed 0,1mm per step
[16:50:14] <ktchk> I need 1000 step per turn because the ball screw is 50mm per turn
[16:50:47] <IchGuckLive> ktchk: what is the needed precision per step
[16:50:51] <IchGuckLive> 0.01
[16:51:05] <ktchk> .025
[16:51:51] <IchGuckLive> thats 20000
[16:52:22] <IchGuckLive> thats a half stepper at 50:1
[16:52:32] <ktchk> IchGuckLive : 200 step times 5 is 1000
[16:52:46] <IchGuckLive> go for 400
[16:52:53] <archivist> jp_mill, you need to get that right so the pulley is concentric
[16:52:53] <IchGuckLive> always half step
[16:53:01] <kwallace2> I have a bias against steppers, but generally they have better low end torque, so your gear ratio could be less. And generally stepper systems are cheaper.
[16:53:22] <IchGuckLive> ktchk: half stepping gives you max speed at max force at max stepepr performance
[16:54:18] <jp_mill> archivist: yeah this is a different mill. Im thinking of making an adapter that threads on and then lock it with a bolt thru the center
[16:54:21] <ktchk> IchGuckLive: Ok but can you stop at half step?
[16:54:31] <IchGuckLive> yes
[16:54:32] <kwallace2> Without knowing the application well, I would tend to get a ball screw with a better pitch.
[16:54:56] <IchGuckLive> ktchk: did you ever open up a stepper
[16:55:07] <IchGuckLive> look inside and you will see
[16:55:09] <ktchk> kwallace2: Or have to change the already installed screw
[16:56:02] <IchGuckLive> ktchk: there are cheep 50:1 Nema23 at your nairbourhood in hongkong
[16:56:07] <ktchk> IchGuckLive: I open up and it lost magnetism and lost power
[16:56:31] <IchGuckLive> ktchk: dont agree on that
[16:56:56] <IchGuckLive> i changed bearing of mine lots of time and they work well
[16:56:58] <ktchk> IchGuckLive: Yes it do
[16:57:40] <kwallace2> My unipolar half stepping set up has less torque than full stepping because there are steps with one coil active and some with two. A bipolar micro stepping drive may not have this problem.
[16:57:47] <archivist> jp_mill, or use a better reference diameter after the thread
[16:58:05] <ktchk> IchGuckLive: 50:1 harmonic gear from japan is cheap
[16:58:15] <IchGuckLive> yes
[16:58:32] <skunkworks> I have a setup that morphs from half stepping at low feeds to full stepping at high feeds... :)
[16:58:40] <IchGuckLive> ktchk: worldcrm is around you it sells to here
[16:58:55] <IchGuckLive> 15USD
[16:59:06] <jp_mill> archivist: http://imagebin.org/272617
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[16:59:14] <ktchk> IchGuckLive: I do have a A axis built like that
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[17:00:00] <IchGuckLive> i 2 but i use 90:1 for that
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[17:00:23] <archivist> jp_mill, I am a bit surprised at how short that is
[17:00:32] <IchGuckLive> ktchk: there is another typhoon towards shanghai
[17:01:01] <ktchk> IchGuckLive: yes
[17:02:12] <jp_mill> archivist: Yeah it's what i have to deal with. It's a stock import mini mill i'm converting. my constrains are that i can't modify any of the stock hardware.
[17:02:51] <kwallace2> My understanding of losing motor magnetism has to do with the magnetic material. Old magnetic materials are easier to magnetise but also demag. Modern materials should not demag unless they are subjected to high fields or heat.
[17:03:04] <IchGuckLive> ktchk: are you going for nema 34
[17:03:22] <IchGuckLive> i woudt use a 8Nm or 12Nm on it
[17:04:04] <ktchk> IchGuckLive: Chinese have some thing different to NEMA
[17:04:15] <archivist> jp_mill, usually the balls screws come with an end you can couple too (eg oldham connector)
[17:05:11] <jp_mill> archivist: yeah thats the stock z-axis lead screw. No such luck
[17:05:22] <ktchk> IchGuckLive: I have to servo motor in hand but controllers are more expansive then stepper motor
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[17:06:05] <archivist> jp_mill, even for handwheel ?
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[17:06:22] <IchGuckLive> there is a omron service in HK that has cheep servo aplications around 120USD for 400W system
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[17:06:40] <ktchk> IchGuckLive: http://www.hko.gov.hk/wxinfo/currwx/tc_gis_c.htm
[17:06:45] <jp_mill> archivist: the handwheel uses a spur gear lower on the screw.
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[17:07:07] <IchGuckLive> ktchk: http://www.nrlmry.navy.mil/TC.html i trust the USGS
[17:07:32] <archivist> jp_mill, that is where the belt should probably drive too
[17:07:41] <ktchk> IchGuckLive: 20nm 100v 5a stepper motor is 100us
[17:08:11] <jp_mill> archivist: wanted to stay away from that too much play
[17:08:13] <IchGuckLive> ktchk: http://stores.ebay.de/EasySupply?_trksid=p2047675.l2563 he got the MA860 in stock
[17:08:26] <jp_mill> archivist: http://www.busybeetools.com/products/MILLING-MACHINE-WITH-DIGITAL-READOUT.html
[17:11:08] <kwallace2> I think the Pico servo amp at $125 with an FPGA card could be considered inexpensive: http://pico-systems.com/osc2.5/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=26
[17:11:24] <ktchk> IchGuckLive: the 100v 5a stepper controller is also 100us
[17:12:18] <IchGuckLive> up to you to spend this money
[17:12:30] <IchGuckLive> on 50:1 you need only 8Nm
[17:13:00] <kwallace2> You get to use HALscope for tuning too.
[17:13:18] <ktchk> IchGuckLive: I have stepper motor but like to try servo
[17:13:19] <IchGuckLive> ktchk: leadshine Nema34 is 45USD in HK
[17:13:21] <archivist> jp_mill, as far as I can see and accidental unscrew is fatal and that nut is for endfloat adjustment, I would be avoiding that end
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[17:14:29] <ktchk> IchGuckLive: did you check http://www.taobao.com for chinese price?
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[17:17:11] <ktchk> IchGuckLive: http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r. is leadshin chinese Yen price
[17:17:12] <IchGuckLive> 320yuan
[17:17:24] <jp_mill> archivist: Yes my options suck
[17:17:29] <ktchk> IchGuckLive: 220 yen
[17:17:55] <IchGuckLive> your servo and 50:1 gear mounted is 580yen
[17:18:39] <ktchk> IchGuckLive: right but would like to test servo setup
[17:19:24] <IchGuckLive> servo step dir mode or real
[17:20:09] <ktchk> real the motor have an encoder 1000 pulse per rev
[17:21:04] <IchGuckLive> NP
[17:21:13] <IchGuckLive> this gives you a nice setup
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[17:21:24] <IchGuckLive> with good error handeling
[17:21:38] <ktchk> what is NP?
[17:23:22] <ktchk> IchGuckLive: ???NP
[17:23:22] <IchGuckLive> No problem
[17:23:30] <ktchk> ah
[17:23:44] <ktchk> but more money
[17:24:07] <IchGuckLive> more power
[17:24:13] <IchGuckLive> so good spend
[17:24:22] <IchGuckLive> moe speed about 3000/min
[17:24:30] <ktchk> yes
[17:24:39] <IchGuckLive> insted of maybe 250
[17:25:06] <IchGuckLive> also cable langth no factor
[17:25:10] <IchGuckLive> up to 6m
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[17:26:00] <ktchk> IchGuckLive: what about xenomai ubuntu 12.04lts?
[17:26:28] <IchGuckLive> http://s.taobao.com/search?initiative_id=staobaoz_20131004&jc=1&source=haiwaigou&q=omron+r7m&stats_click=search_radio_all%3A1
[17:26:51] <IchGuckLive> i use the A10030 r7m with xtrive 01E
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[17:27:35] <IchGuckLive> in special aplications for stand alone no extra needed it got 6 inputs for a G-code movement that is preprogrammed
[17:27:42] <ktchk> IchGuckLive: you read chinese ?
[17:27:59] <IchGuckLive> as good as i can
[17:28:22] <ktchk> IchGuckLive: pay chinese taobao
[17:29:39] <IchGuckLive> if you start start with those they are like hell for a small mashine
[17:29:39] <ktchk> IchGuckLive: want a hand?
[17:30:11] <IchGuckLive> no im only stuck at german coustom with all your goods
[17:30:58] <IchGuckLive> Chongqing market B.)
[17:31:04] <IchGuckLive> O.O
[17:31:28] <IchGuckLive> 2500 ladies below 25age in a shift
[17:31:37] <jdh> vs. stopping on the way home and picking it up?
[17:33:04] <ktchk> IchGuckLive: I ship repair part to germany for repair siemans
[17:33:49] <ktchk> I want to build this http://diydrones.com/profiles/blog/list?tag=CNC
[17:33:55] <IchGuckLive> im the SIEMENS man repair to Chongqing
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[17:34:05] <IchGuckLive> Haas Milling
[17:34:39] <ktchk> IchGuckLive: Hell scanner to china
[17:36:16] <IchGuckLive> nice work
[17:36:19] <ktchk> IchGuckLive: Hell K303 Helio-klishograph
[17:36:51] <ktchk> IchGuckLive: contact off line ok?
[17:36:59] <IchGuckLive> but not milling AL parts on this
[17:37:24] <ktchk> copper cylinder
[17:39:12] <ktchk> IchGuckLive: Siemens is going to cut a lot of job, is it?
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[17:51:19] <archivist> jp_mill, anyway, your threaded item needs a split so it can grip the thread
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[18:45:31] <JT-Shop> well I didn't know the nod bolts needed 50 lbs ft of torque on the BP
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[18:46:32] <mrsun_> jthornton, well i guess this will be almost the same or something, it will be crossed under the table so it will pull in the same direction on both sides :P
[18:46:44] <mrsun_> cant find any pictures on drafting table wire/pulley systems
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[18:48:31] <mrsun_> $10 in supplies compared to 300$+ for another ballscrew and stuff, and i get some time in the lathe (already made the pulleys just some studs left) and it should be almost as good if built correctly in the end =)
[18:49:40] <JT-Shop> like this http://cockrum.net/cnc_mechanical.html
[18:49:43] <JT-Shop> ?
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[19:49:09] <andypugh> mrsun_: A different one... http://corexy.com/theory.html
[19:49:49] <mrsun_> http://corexy.com/principles2.png like that one im building
[19:50:00] <mrsun_> to help drag the non drive side with the drive side =)
[19:53:10] <mrsun_> got a eureka feeling when i got home from the walk .. that i didnt need a second screw just something that will pull in the same speed and lenght as the side driving and voila the idea was born :P
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[19:53:28] <mrsun_> yeah people have thought of it before but im just reinventing the wheel :P
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[19:56:06] <mrsun_> heh that second link was nice .. .so i realy do not need to drive the cables? but if the cables slip then ?
[19:59:33] <mrsun_> but doing it like i will do it works better with my design of the table i think and it wont be able to slip ... ever =)
[19:59:46] <mrsun_> if the wires dont come lose that is :P
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[20:33:46] <asdfasd> I tried that a long time ago, with thin flexible steel rope
[20:34:26] <asdfasd> unfortunately the steel rope was very elastic
[20:35:50] <asdfasd> then I made it with chain, still a little bit elastic but it work
[20:36:32] <Einar> I question the stiffness of that method. Would it not be creating a CNC guitar?
[20:36:59] <asdfasd> it is
[20:39:01] <asdfasd> tried to stretch the wire with more than 100kg force, and still elastic
[20:40:44] <asdfasd> there is a pen plotter made this way, but not suitable for router
[20:53:24] <mrsun_> steel rope .. is that wire ? cause wire shouldnt flex ? :)
[20:58:00] <mrsun_> but i guess it will stretch to some extent ... oh well, will give it a try and hope for the best =)
[21:02:04] <DJ9DJ> gn8
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[21:08:26] <andypugh> No matter how much preload you apply, adding the same extra force will give the same extension. That's just Hooke's law.
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[21:15:02] <DaViruz> maybe you could use aramid wire or something
[21:16:18] <andypugh> That is even less stiff.
[21:16:32] <DaViruz> oh?
[21:17:04] <DaViruz> maybe it's only the stiffness to weight ratio that is impressive then
[21:17:53] <andypugh> 70-112GPA for Aramid against 200 for steel.
[21:18:55] <DaViruz> seems like it
[21:19:02] <andypugh> Osmium wire would be good.
[21:19:09] <DaViruz> carbon nanotubes!
[21:19:25] <DaViruz> i wonder how ordinary carbon tow would hold up
[21:21:40] <DaViruz> tungsten carbide!
[21:21:43] <andypugh> Right, the mill is now working, so I will bid you goodnight.
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[21:21:51] <DaViruz> i dare you to make a flexible wire
[21:22:36] <asdfasd> http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31eaX5M4UyL._SL500_AA300_.jpg
[21:22:49] <asdfasd> I use 6mm chain like this one
[21:23:16] <asdfasd> it is 10 times less elastic than steel rope
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[21:23:57] <asdfasd> the problem with rope is that the wires are twisted, more twisted, more flexible, and more spring effect
[21:25:45] <mrsun_> anyhow i think it will help my problem with the gantry flexing on movement in the end =)
[21:26:11] <mrsun_> else i guess it will be chain if that is alot more stiffer =)
[21:26:21] <mrsun_> i will try my first plan first :P
[21:27:19] <asdfasd> depends, on wooden machine (if I can call it machine) you may not notice any difference :)
[21:28:14] <mrsun_> this one is built of pure steel ... and some small alu details :P
[21:28:45] <mrsun_> but as it stands now on even movement without cutting the gantry flexes like crazy in the oposite end from the drive :P
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[21:50:53] <JT-Shop> sounds like a poor design
[21:54:56] <mrsun_> well its my first machine.. its bound to have some problems :P
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[21:55:11] <mrsun_> so yes, poor design but wont rebuild the whole machine for it if i can find a good solution to the problems =)
[21:55:15] <mrsun_> now its nighty time
[21:55:43] <JT-Shop> ahh a learning machine
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[22:22:24] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop, any updates for us? annodizing, new cannons, etc?
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[22:22:52] <Tom_itx> log splitter...
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[22:24:02] <Tom_itx> spyder parts...
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