#linuxcnc | Logs for 2013-08-23

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[00:02:50] <JT-Shop> hmmm I can get a 3600 rpm motor that will do 350 rpm min for $400
[00:03:24] <JT-Shop> with a max safe rpm of 7200
[00:03:50] <JT-Shop> max chp of 5235 rpm
[00:03:57] <JT-Shop> ohh that sounds good
[00:04:48] <JT-Shop> take the vari speed junk out and put a timing belt on it...
[00:05:03] -!- Nick001 [Nick001!~Nick001@] has joined #linuxcnc
[00:05:12] <JT-Shop> might make the Discovery 308 make more than two parts before it has a stroke
[00:05:52] <Tom_itx> what on your machine flakes out on you?
[00:05:57] <Tom_itx> i forget which one...
[00:06:18] <JT-Shop> the 308 trips out after a few minutes of running
[00:06:19] <Tom_itx> ahh nm the Discovery
[00:06:36] <Tom_itx> you haven't pinpointed the problem?
[00:06:37] <JT-Shop> I can get a couple parts done if I'm careful about the G code
[00:06:47] <JT-Shop> yea, the drives are junk
[00:06:51] <Tom_itx> oh
[00:07:12] <JT-Shop> just need a new spindle drive and 3 AC servos and drives and I'm good to go
[00:07:25] <JT-Shop> about $4k
[00:07:36] <JT-Shop> maybe less
[00:07:46] <Tom_itx> couple dozen spyder parts..
[00:08:54] <JT-Shop> takes all day to make a dozen parts
[00:09:16] <Tom_itx> it shouldn't
[00:09:31] <Aero-Tec> sorry on phone
[00:09:51] <JT-Shop> if I gear the 2hp motor at 1.25:1 I can get 280 - 5760 RPM on the BP knee mill
[00:10:03] <JT-Shop> I can tap at 280 no problem
[00:10:36] * JT-Shop hears the dinner bell ringing and I'm pretty sure it's not my ding a ling
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[00:11:31] <archivist> hmm 1 am, lorry clutches are heavy
[00:12:32] <Valen> lol
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[00:13:34] <archivist> I got roped in for a clutch change today
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[00:15:12] <Valen> sounds like a loveley clean job
[00:16:02] <archivist> my dainty fingers are a little black
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[01:01:19] <RyanS> Chelsea Manning..... I didn't see that coming
[01:02:04] <jdh> perhpas she will be happy in prison
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[01:02:21] <jdh> you understand this is just irc,right?
[01:02:28] <jdh> <wrong channel>
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[01:02:42] <RyanS> what?
[01:03:34] <RyanS> oh
[01:04:29] <RyanS> What you mean as a cell mates 'bitch'?
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[01:25:06] <jdh> that would imply subservience or the like.... could just make 'her' popular.
[01:29:19] <Aero-Tec> JT-Shop, Tom_itx thanks for the info
[01:34:04] <RyanS> .... I need some counterbore cutters is it okay to cheap out on those? ( I've heard things like reamers, you /really/ don't want to cheap out... The precision thing)
[01:45:19] <jdh> SHCS counterbores?
[01:46:35] <RyanS> yep with integral pilot
[01:47:09] <jdh> I have chinese ones. They cut the counterbores fine, but the pilots are larger than I would have made for a clearance hole
[01:47:41] <RyanS> Dormer is like a $65 for M8... Or a Chinese set for $120
[01:48:42] <jdh> I've only used the #10 and 1/4" though. If the hole is bigger than the end mill I'm using, I just make a pocket.
[01:49:05] <RyanS> I can't imagine using them enough to justify $65 for 1
[01:50:02] <jdh> not for my use. What precision would you want out of one though?
[01:50:14] <RyanS> I just got 1 good countersink because it will do all the smaller sizes too
[01:50:50] <RyanS> well I guess if it's for the clearance of the Screw head. You don't care that much about precision?
[01:51:18] <jdh> I don't. I'm no machinist though.
[01:52:37] <RyanS> I just want to screws to sit flush, doesn't matter if it' not super precise. Might just get a cheap set
[01:53:06] <jdh> depth is up to you
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[01:54:34] <RyanS> I tried to use an endmill to do the same thing on a drill press.. Too much vibration (I now understand why milling machines need to be rigid)
[01:56:26] <jdh> drilling holes is a pain on my mill anyway
[01:58:19] <RyanS> Reamers are confusing. So many different types , although it seems a little pointless to use hand reamers
[01:58:32] <jdh> I don't understand the adjustable ones
[01:59:11] <RyanS> yeah, I think you can't use those on anything hard?
[01:59:50] <jdh> no clue. I thought reamers were for precision. Do you precisely set them by trial and error?
[02:00:38] <RyanS> I think they have markings to indicate the size, otherwise you could probably use calipers or micrometrer
[02:00:53] <jdh> but, they are adjustable
[02:01:23] <RyanS> As far as I know you can't use them on anything other than aluminium, brass and so on
[02:01:51] <RyanS> Not sure, I think you jus adjust and measure
[02:04:18] <RyanS> The ones that have a morse taper shank seem to make sense because you bypass the chuck runout, and mount them directly in the spindle
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[02:11:15] <RyanS> Id love to build one of those stationary steam engines from castings... They all use BA or some other obsolete tap and drill standards which is a pain
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[02:17:39] <RyanS> Fractional measurements too......urghh
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[04:03:05] -!- nspiel [nspiel!126f36e9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.] has joined #linuxcnc
[04:03:19] <nspiel> So I am having a wiring problem with my robot arm. I can't figure it out I have tried many things
[04:03:38] <nspiel> it seems that the power and ground for the motor encoders is connected
[04:03:49] <nspiel> when i probe with a continuity test
[04:06:15] <nspiel> basically there is a female header coming out of the motor. I know all of the connections on it and then there is a 50 pin flat ribbon cable coming out of the robot
[04:06:21] <nspiel> i dont know the connections down there
[04:06:46] <nspiel> so i have probing where the female header goes in a breakout board to try to continuity check the connections coming out of the flat 50 pin connector wire
[04:07:50] <nspiel> and when i do this. I touch encoder power and find the pin on the 50 conductor cable and when i do this for ground on the encoder they are the same
[04:08:07] <nspiel> it doesnt make any sense. I have even tried reversing the multimeter leads
[04:15:11] <pcw_home> You need to have the multimeter on a low ohm range to check for power continuity
[04:18:41] <nspiel> i have in continuity mode right now? is that not good enough? Should I just check for resistance- is that what you are saying?
[04:20:16] <pcw_home> yes check for less than say .5 ohms
[04:20:51] <pcw_home> (Check zero by shorting leads)
[04:23:14] <nspiel> ok so they were both at .6 ohms
[04:23:33] <nspiel> all the wires that i though were connected that i found their pinouts on the ribbon connector were at .6 ohms
[04:26:25] <pcw_home> If they read 0.6 Ohms they are very likely connected
[04:26:26] <pcw_home> I would not expect to measure that low between 5V and ground
[04:26:59] <pcw_home> bbl sleepy...
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[04:28:31] <nspiel> does anyone else have any ideas? I thought it may be a diode for power reversal protection but I flipped the multimeter and it was still connecter
[04:28:33] <nspiel> connected
[04:32:13] <tjtr33> nspiel i havent followed your 'thread' closely but i am rebuilding an otc-daihen 6dof with sanyo-denki motors and AbsoluteA encoders. is data for that useful to you?
[04:39:09] <nspiel> possibly, i can clarify my exact build specs if you would like
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[04:41:22] <tjtr33> nspiel: google this for pinouts and block diagrams 1L5000A-E-10
[04:42:24] <tjtr33> that control was used by a lot of mfctrs ( re-branders)
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[04:45:54] <nspiel> hi sorry my internet just died
[04:45:58] <nspiel> what was the pinout?
[04:49:19] <nspiel> does anyone know how to access the webchat irc?
[04:49:26] <nspiel> i just want to see the past five or so messages
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[04:54:39] <nspiel> tjtr33 i am looking now
[04:55:22] <Meduza> nspiel: what messages do you want to look at?
[04:55:46] <nspiel> thanks meduza, I found it
[04:57:11] <Meduza> oki
[04:59:51] <nspiel> tjtr33 my robot is a seiko epson ssr h414
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[05:03:34] <nspiel> tjtr33 the motor power cable is definately the same
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[05:03:37] <nspiel> i have that one
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[05:20:02] <tjtr33> nspiel i cant find reason to think the controls are the same , sorry http://www.epson.jp/ms/1983_5.htm
[05:24:54] <nspiel> i dont think the controls are the same
[05:25:47] <nspiel> but i cant find any other documentation on it
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[06:48:44] <DJ9DJ> moin
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[08:10:27] <false> nspiel: Maybe contact the guys @ www.eg.bucknell.edu , they have one, maybe the also have the manual and/or some insights
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[08:12:20] <Loetmichel> mornin'
[08:12:37] <false> good morning
[08:12:57] <tjtr33> holy crap 3am again! bye bye
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[08:13:35] <Loetmichel> <- 10:12 over here... just have my first coffee... not really awake ;-)
[08:14:54] <false> Jep same time here, but I've been up a little longer
[08:15:37] <false> Loetmichel: you know anything about mesa hardware?
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[08:17:26] <Loetmichel> sorry. i am still using lpt port(s)
[08:18:00] <kengu> morgning
[08:18:06] <false> Morning!
[08:18:08] <kengu> or likes
[08:18:55] <false> I always liked what pete tong said about that: "Good morning, or good evening... depending on which way up you are" :P
[08:19:10] <Loetmichel> hrhr
[08:19:51] <false> kengu, you into mesa stuff?
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[08:22:27] <archivist> Its all gone a bit Pete Tong :)
[08:27:32] <Loetmichel> i HAVE to get these cup for work... -> http://de.webfail.com/4d3e0d65b87
[08:27:33] <Loetmichel> ;-)
[08:27:55] <Loetmichel> it describes my morning perfectly ;-)
[08:28:24] <kengu> false: not yet.. might end up getting a bunch of those for the plama
[08:29:19] <kengu> i just have not figured out yet what hardware to use. I was planinng on using lpt-port but it is a bit tight on the io and adding additional lpt is not that .. well.. i might as well go for something else
[08:32:25] <Loetmichel> false: as i understand it mesa is handy when it comes to counting/make a control loop ON the card instead of in the computer
[08:32:46] <Loetmichel> as there are mesa cards with DSPs on it.
[08:32:46] <kengu> for the laser i used lpt and some breakout board
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[08:33:16] <Loetmichel> for anything a pc CPU can shoulder a "normal" IO-card would be sufficient
[08:33:25] <Loetmichel> or some LPT cards
[08:33:53] <Loetmichel> so i didnt had the urge to buy nmesa cards
[08:34:17] <Loetmichel> because i am working with steppers most of the time, so no need to do work on the card
[08:34:54] <Loetmichel> and the little dc servos i am trying to get going will have a driver with step/dir inputs, so like steppers
[08:35:39] <xyzee> Can somebody please point me to a wiring diagram to set up home switches.
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[08:37:38] <kengu> i am sort of thinking of getting the "non critical" io on some usb-connected io board. as in emergency stop or likes. as it is not that much of clock related thing
[08:37:52] <kengu> and then put the rest on lpt
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[08:43:51] <false> Sounds like a plan
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[12:12:53] <Tom_itx> kengu, you consider Estop non critical?
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[13:05:44] <jthornton> dang copy and paste gave me funny stuff that drove me mad trying to find it
[13:07:13] <jthornton> ['M6 \xc3\x97 1'] should have been ['M6 x 1']
[13:10:22] <Jymmm> unicode
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[13:12:06] <Jymmm> jthornton: were you playing with python?
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[13:16:53] <jthornton> python sqlite
[13:17:28] <jthornton> lol, when I copied and pasted the metric taps from a web page to my spread sheet it used a funny x
[13:17:56] <jthornton> I finally noticed the x was floating above the rest of the text
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[15:16:19] <false> Hey guys, got the following error/tuning problem figured out. It was oscillation coming from the 7i37 output which I use for enabling the drives. Because my driver has a common ground for all inputs including the enable (yes I know, fanuc what were you thinking!?), the oscillation propagated to the analog in and the tacho in. Putting a relay on the 7i37 output to enable the drive solved it.
[15:16:19] <false> Got the x axis tuned, but I have kind of a strange problem, to me at least. When moving in the X+ direction the axis stops within 0.001mm of the commanded position, but when moving in the X- direction it consitently stops 0.01mm short of the commanded position. What could be causing this, is it the drive responding differently to the command voltage when it's negative vs positive? And shouldn't
[15:16:19] <false> the PID loop try to correct for the last 0.01mm? Encoders are mounted on the servo shaft.
[15:25:44] <cradek> did you try adjusting the balance knob?
[15:28:08] <false> You mean on the drive right>
[15:32:12] <false> The problem is that I don't have any documentation for these, they are very old fanuc velocity drives, I tried fanuc but they haven't responded yet. There are 3 pots with clear meaning: Offset, Dither and Gain (RV1-RV3). There is one other that's marked RV4 next to those three, which according to the scale is right in the middle off its range, could this be the balance potmeter?
[15:36:25] <false> RV4 is tacho offset
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[15:46:11] <false> But shouldn't the pid loop increase the voltage on the analog in to correct for this?
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[16:09:55] <skunkworks> false, very basic pid tuner here... If there is no I (wind up) and the tuning is such - if it stops short there is nothing to 'push' it the rest of the way.
[16:10:53] <cradek> the one marked offset is the one I'm talking about
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[16:15:49] <cradek> oh you have separate command and feedback offset, interesting
[16:16:16] <cradek> since those are summed I don't know why you need them both separately, so there must be something I don't know
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[16:22:41] <false> I think RV4 is to compensate for variations in the circuit, the scale is 6V/1000RPM for the tacho, so thats well into the millivolts range for lower rpms, the board is from the 70's.
[16:23:36] <false> I adjusted the offset pot for 0 drift with the drives and 7i33 enabled and the pid loop disabled.
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[16:25:51] <false> Watching the encoder count from halshow (8000ppr after 4x counting) I let it set for a couple of minutes to see if it would drift, it didn't
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[16:29:08] <false> If I look at halscope I can see the pid loop correcting at the end of the move but than it goes flat
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[16:29:38] <cradek> wonder if RV4 is tach scaling, not tach offset
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[16:32:05] <false> I read somewhere that I shouldn't touch the RV4 because it was factory set
[16:32:17] <false> I'll try to find that post
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[16:44:58] <pcw_home> were you able to increase the P gain?
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[16:47:33] <IchGuckLive> hi all B)
[16:49:58] <false> Yes it's at 4.0 now
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[16:51:46] <pcw_home> is that as high as it can go?
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[16:53:21] <Jymmm> pcw_home: Hey
[16:54:40] <pcw_home> what is the pwm scale?
[16:54:57] <false> Yes, adjust any higher generates oscillations, currently I still have oscillations of about 0.01mm in cruise @ 15mm/min this is centered around 0 ferror, adjusting P down does not make a difference for those
[16:55:14] <toxx> Hi, can I get the attachments from http://www.linuxcnc.org/index.php/english/forum/39-pncconf/21670-5i25-firmware-xml-files-for-pncconf from any other place? Registration doesn't work.
[16:55:41] <cradek> can you elaborate on how it doesn't work?
[16:56:21] <toxx> I don't get any email
[16:56:35] <false> -142.8571, I read a post from you where you stated I would be easier to scale it so that 10V output would equal full output in mm/s
[16:57:07] <cradek> ok maybe someone here can help with that. until we get our ducks in a row and update our packages, you can always get firmwares directly from mesa
[16:57:57] <jthornton> toxx, what fails with registration?
[16:57:59] <cradek> I'd say your rapid speed should happen at around 9v, you don't ever want to saturate
[16:58:31] <false> rapid speed is @ 6.7volts
[16:58:38] <toxx> ok, i just don't know what kind of files I need, i downloaded the mesa files
[16:58:56] <false> input scale for the drive is 7V/1000RPM
[16:59:15] <toxx> there are .bit .xml and .pin files
[16:59:36] <false> Original control output in rapids was 6.7Volt so I took that as max ouput
[16:59:54] <andypugh> Jymmm: man exports
[17:00:08] <false> Which brings it to about 95 as pwm scale
[17:00:24] <toxx> jthornton: i dont
[17:00:24] <Jymmm> andypugh: in ref to???
[17:00:30] <andypugh> toxx: You need the .bit file to download to the Mesa card
[17:00:33] <toxx> jthornton: i dont get any email
[17:00:44] <jthornton> toxx, you have been enabled
[17:00:47] <andypugh> Jymmm: Before I went off in a huff last night you asked where NFS was in OSX
[17:01:06] <Jymmm> andypugh: Ah, did you get my memo?
[17:01:10] <andypugh> toxx: Unless it is a 5i25, then you don't need to.
[17:01:13] <toxx> so the .bit files have to be at /lib/firmware/hostmot2?
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[17:01:28] <false> Correction 95.71429 max output, -142.8571 as pwm scale that is
[17:01:42] <andypugh> Yes, lib/firmware/<name of card> normally
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[17:02:03] <andypugh> Sorry, let me try that again. lib/firmware/hm2/<name of card>
[17:02:09] <toxx> ok, i will try that
[17:02:46] <andypugh> Though anywhere in lib/firmware will work as long as the "firmware= " part of the loadt line points at it.
[17:03:15] <toxx> jthornton: i just tried logging in again, but it doesn't work
[17:03:28] <andypugh> You _should_ be able to get the normal firmwares with sudo apt-get install hostmot2-firmware-<name of card> though.
[17:03:49] <jthornton> I just sent you another conformation email
[17:04:18] <toxx> andypugh: ok, I'll try that, i just need it for 5i25 with pncconf
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[17:04:36] <jthornton> you do have a funny name...
[17:04:55] <andypugh> Ah, in that case you don't need the bit-file at all....
[17:05:27] <andypugh> You only need the XML file for PNCConf (and PNCConf is the only thing that uses the XML file)
[17:06:29] <false> andypugh: got your nfs working the way you like?
[17:06:38] <toxx> jthornton: i do not get any mail from you, I looked in the spamfile - nothing
[17:07:14] <toxx> andypugh: where do I have to put the xml file?
[17:07:19] <andypugh> false: Ah, no, it turned out to be a complete fluke that it worked when it did, it never re-mounted or auto-mounted.
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[17:07:59] <andypugh> false: I gave up. I am now looking at nfs-sharing direct from Mac to Linux and ignoring the NAS.
[17:08:19] <toxx> I compiled the sources from git...
[17:08:29] <andypugh> (after two re-installs of different Linux versions from scratch)
[17:08:49] <false> andypugh: you could also setup cifs sharing on the linux box, the mybook does cifs right?
[17:09:06] <andypugh> I got SMB working. It was _horribly_ slow
[17:09:09] <pcw_home> 4 is a quite low P gain if PWM scale is mm/second
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[17:10:46] <toxx> btw, can I use the 5i25 rs422 serial port for anything different than controlling mesa-cards?
[17:11:03] <toxx> I would like to controll a VFD
[17:11:27] <jthornton> toxx, check your email again
[17:11:50] <jthornton> and we have built in support for the Automation Direct GS2 VFD via modbus
[17:12:18] <toxx> no mail at all
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[17:12:45] <false> pcw_home: I made the following calculations: ballscrew = 6mm/rev, so 10rpm = 1mm/s. 10V/7V = 1.4 > 1.4*1000/10 = 140
[17:12:56] <andypugh> toxx: Do you have spam filters?
[17:12:59] <jthornton> perhaps you entered it wrong as the last one I sent from my computer
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[17:13:34] <archivist> not all email is instant
[17:13:51] <false> pcw_home: or am I making a huge thinking error here?
[17:13:53] <toxx> hmm, i don't know modbus.
[17:14:23] <jthornton> you don't need to know anything about modbus to use the gs2 component
[17:14:57] <pcw_home> a P gain of 4 will request a velocity of .04 mm/second at a .01 mm error
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[17:15:17] <toxx> well, my provider should filter, but ther's nothing in the spamfile
[17:15:36] <toxx> gs2 component?
[17:16:12] <jthornton> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vC5B_l5HuQQ&feature=c4-overview&list=UUt3eCzdbsQeuCifjsTyvvTg
[17:16:38] <jthornton> it controls the GS2 VFD
[17:16:43] <false> pcw_home: so the axis should be moving, but it is not?
[17:16:49] <pcw_home> This is in the range of one LSB of the analog out so I think the P gain needs to be increased
[17:17:53] <false> pcw_home: if I increase the P to 4.5 the axis starts to oscillate
[17:18:26] <pcw_home> Probably not enough velocity feedback bandwidth
[17:18:40] <andypugh> I need to get brave enough to try rigid tapping, though I have a gearbox between the resolver and the chuck...
[17:19:42] <false> So the output of the 7i33 creating the tacho signal doesn't have enough bandwidth
[17:19:47] <jthornton> how much backlash in the gear box?
[17:20:04] <pcw_home> needs your scalable index logic
[17:20:29] <pcw_home> Not the 7I33, but the thread rate
[17:21:31] <false> The thread is at 200000ns
[17:21:37] <toxx> ok, there seems to be a way. this is whatwe use: http://www.hanning-hew.de/wEnglisch/produkte/antriebstechnik/322_hamotic_varicon_Asynchron-Kompaktantriebe.shtml
[17:21:39] <andypugh> jthornton: Not a huge amount. 5 degrees maybe?
[17:21:58] <jthornton> give it a try in some plastic
[17:22:09] <jthornton> that's what I did at first
[17:22:53] <pcw_home> should be OK at 5 KHz, maybe your velocity loop is not tuned as well as it can be
[17:25:28] <pcw_home> at 5 KHz the loop bandwidth should be around 1.5 KHz which should be fine (the machine bandwidth will be < 100 Hz)
[17:26:37] <false> Well, the following error @ 700mm/m is about 0.02mm while cruising, did you read my post a little further up about it being spot on after X+ and it being of after an X-?
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[17:27:13] <toxx> jthornton: ok, i got your testmail now :)
[17:27:43] <pcw_home> I would try tuning the velocity portion to see if you can increase the P gain
[17:28:01] <jthornton> try logging onto the forum again
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[17:28:54] <false> pcw_home: going up 0.01 at at time maybe?
[17:29:01] <pcw_home> (tuning consists of adjusting the gain in the tachometer simulation portion)
[17:29:09] <toxx> hmm, that's what I get "Your registration process is not yet complete!"
[17:30:18] <jthornton> one moment
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[17:31:59] <pcw_home> if all else fails (and you have FF1 dialed in so there's no large following error during cruise), I would add some I term)
[17:33:06] <false> I will go and try that, thanks again for you help!
[17:33:34] <IchGuckLive> thats why we are here false
[17:33:42] <jthornton> toxx, try now
[17:33:49] <toxx> jthornton: \o/ thanks, i'm logged in :)
[17:34:19] <false> I know, but still
[17:34:31] <jthornton> your internet provider must be blocking emails from linuxcnc.org
[17:35:07] <toxx> yes, seems so.
[17:35:58] -!- sumpfralle has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
[17:36:10] <jthornton> you might ask them about that
[17:37:00] <toxx> well, there won't be any support, I think. Just robots.
[17:38:59] <toxx> so, thank's a lot! bye
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[17:48:26] <andypugh> false: You don't want to know how easy it just was to nfs-mount a share on my Mac on the Linux machine :-/
[17:50:51] <andypugh> toxx: You don't, technically, need the confirmation email.
[17:51:47] <andypugh> An admin can set you up entirely manually with a password of his choice that you can then change
[17:52:40] -!- vladimirek [vladimirek!~vladimire@] has joined #linuxcnc
[17:54:39] <andypugh> Bah! I just made a coffee then found that someone has used up all the milk!
[17:55:25] <andypugh> And by a process of deduction I have figured out that it was me, as nobody else has a key to my house :-)
[17:55:27] <IchGuckLive> shops are open so go and det new one
[17:55:33] <IchGuckLive> get
[17:55:41] <andypugh> brb
[18:01:53] -!- AR_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
[18:05:06] <IchGuckLive> andypugh: its warm here but getting dark fast
[18:05:35] <IchGuckLive> so folks in the US Burningman reno Nevada starts tommarrow morning at 6pm
[18:05:52] <IchGuckLive> tickets are sold out
[18:06:22] <IchGuckLive> no milling mashine on the playa but in the factories of wood construction to the playa
[18:06:23] <cradek> with an unprecedented police presence, I hear
[18:06:35] <IchGuckLive> yes
[18:06:46] <IchGuckLive> roads to the event are in full control
[18:07:00] <IchGuckLive> no one alowed within 60 miles of parking
[18:07:26] <IchGuckLive> as they try to overrcom the traffic brekdown of the last years
[18:07:52] <IchGuckLive> rheno exit is also controled from Homeland security
[18:08:04] <IchGuckLive> as burners are not terrorists i will say
[18:08:18] <IchGuckLive> they are not business man as well
[18:08:26] <IchGuckLive> ok im off
[18:08:28] <IchGuckLive> BY
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[18:08:52] <cradek> haha homeland security
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[19:02:31] <false> pcw_home: I can get the Pgain up to about 14, the axis will oscillate while jogging but stops doing so right after the jog finishes. Increasing any further makes the axis oscillate after the jog. Does this give you any more clues? FF1 is at 0.25.
[19:02:54] <cradek> a little D might help that
[19:05:06] <false> cradek: pcw_home told me I shouldn't need D on velocity drives, I will add some D but there must be something else right?
[19:05:40] <cradek> I saw him say that, but I have used D in every velocity mode tuning I have ever done
[19:05:47] <false> :P
[19:06:11] <false> ok I'll go and add some, any tips on the amount?
[19:06:31] <cradek> P = 300
[19:06:31] <cradek> I = 0
[19:06:31] <cradek> D = 2
[19:06:31] <cradek> FF1 = 1
[19:06:50] <cradek> this is what I have on my vmc
[19:07:08] <false> so .0067% of P?
[19:07:52] <cradek> the fiddly final tuning is done with the knobs on the amp, gain and offset (set gain so FF1 is exactly 1)
[19:08:16] <cradek> and offset so it doesn't dither
[19:09:34] <cradek> that is with:
[19:09:34] <cradek> MAX_VELOCITY = 7.5
[19:09:34] <cradek> MAX_ACCELERATION = 30
[19:15:39] <skunkworks> cradek could go higher - but then the machine would walk across the floor...
[19:16:01] <false> MAX_ACCELERATION = 100.0, MAX_VELOCITY = 100.0, the original control was quicker but I'll settle for this :P
[19:17:35] <false> cradek: so I should turn the gain on the amp down until FF1 makes the ferror centered around 0? FF is at 0.25 right now
[19:18:33] <false> Well you suggestion for D worked like crazy :D
[19:19:14] <pcw_home> Well D shoul not be needded it the velocity loop is tuned, but that may be fixed or only tunable via potentiometer on the drive
[19:20:03] <cradek> I agree with you but/and I've noticed it always seems to help anyway
[19:21:28] <cradek> skunkworks: yes I had it at v=12.5 a=60 but I didn't like how I felt it in the floor (which is probably not nearly thick enough)
[19:22:48] <pcw_home> You can see the effect of FF1 better when the gain is lower
[19:23:57] <pcw_home> FF1 should be close to one if the PID input is mm and output is mm/S
[19:23:58] <cradek> you will want a lot more accel than 100mm/s2 if you possibly can. that's pretty glacial unless it's an extremely heavy machine
[19:25:17] <pcw_home> Yeah 10 times that should be ~possible
[19:26:02] <false> The machine is capable of 6000mm/m rapids, it reached this speed in about 0.5seconds so yes it could be a lot higher, but I set it lower because I thought it would be easier/safer to tune
[19:26:06] <cradek> you sure don't want to take a full second getting up to speed and a full second stopping again
[19:26:55] <cradek> aha
[19:27:16] <false> It's a Matsuura MC710V
[19:28:21] <CaptHindsight> false: I'm converting one of those myself
[19:28:35] <false> You're kidding me right ?
[19:28:59] <CaptHindsight> it came with a bad Mach3 conversion
[19:29:17] <false> I have no info on it, and matsuura is giving me a 'not home' response
[19:29:31] <CaptHindsight> what info are you looking for?
[19:29:35] <false> Getting the electrics figured out took me a while :P
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[19:31:45] <CaptHindsight> anyone need some NMTB-40 end and shell mill holders? I ended up with 7 in various sizes
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[19:32:10] <false> Well if you have the electrical schematics I would like a few scans if that's possible, I think I got the gearbox and gearbox figured out but if you have official schematics I would like to have those.
[19:32:21] <false> gearbox and atc that is
[19:33:19] <CaptHindsight> false: I don't. It was already rewired poorly
[19:33:44] <CaptHindsight> it's not too complicated
[19:35:11] <false> No I figured it out, but it's always nice to be able to check your work
[19:35:45] <CaptHindsight> I saw some forum posting about asking for what info you need and getting pdf's of scans
[19:36:25] <CaptHindsight> you'll find out soon enough what you have wired wrong :)
[19:36:35] <false> How come?
[19:38:14] <CaptHindsight> there no close enough when it come to wiring
[19:38:46] <CaptHindsight> except for things like noise and ground loops
[19:39:51] <false> That very true, but I used to be a mechanic at a metal working shop, so I know how to tackle this problem. Sure there will be some mistakes but check check and double check and then some more usually solves that
[19:40:12] <CaptHindsight> Mach3 just makes up position info, it's really terrible
[19:40:44] <false> Yep, seen one in action, if you push it to hard things get nasty without you knowing
[19:42:57] <CaptHindsight> how hot does your spindle get at top speed?
[19:43:53] <false> Depends, how long have you had it there, and do you mean the motor or the actual head near the outputshaft?
[19:44:46] <CaptHindsight> at or near the tool holder?
[19:45:18] <false> You mean where the bearing for the outputshaft would be located?
[19:45:25] <CaptHindsight> I still have to drop a sensor in the oil
[19:46:30] <false> I've had it at 4000 rpm for about 30minutes, I was only hand warm.
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[19:47:00] <CaptHindsight> tool holders come out too hot to touch on the pull stud side at 6K rpm
[19:48:01] <false> Mine only goes up to 4000rpm at the outputshaft, at least thats the max output of the old control. This does give 10V on the drives input so I probably have a differnt gearbox
[19:48:22] <CaptHindsight> it has the air/water cooling hookup, but I haven't used it yet, looks like it will be a must
[19:49:09] <false> Are the bearings ok?
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[19:49:29] <CaptHindsight> they make a bit of noise under load
[19:49:56] <false> Whining?
[19:49:56] <CaptHindsight> I'll pull it apart sometime this fall
[19:50:19] <CaptHindsight> more gear or grinding noise
[19:50:47] <CaptHindsight> the spindle oil came out clear
[19:51:32] <false> Better take it apart sooner than later, gearboxes/bearings have the nasty tendancy to fail at exactly the wrong moment i.e. at max speed
[19:51:33] <CaptHindsight> but only noisy under load when cutting
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[19:51:53] <false> If you mill downhill or uphill does the sound disappear?
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[19:52:20] <CaptHindsight> no, it's consistent in any direction
[19:54:06] <false> Well if there were absolutely no iron particles in the oil it kind of has to be a bearing right? Would also explain hot toolholders better.
[19:54:43] <CaptHindsight> what it looks like
[19:55:26] <archivist> I had the nuts on the spindle come loose ones, had noisy cuts
[19:55:33] <archivist> once
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[19:56:06] <false> Bdw, just checked, my gearbox does have a heat exchanger emersed in the oil at the back of the gearbox, it's just not connected
[19:57:14] <false> archivist: sounds painfull if your in the way :P
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[19:57:37] <false> anyway, have to get to tuning again, see you later
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[19:59:30] <archivist> the endfloat and therefore noise level increased, soon noticed and adjusted
[20:00:22] <CaptHindsight> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvd_0Hmt3fM&feature=youtu.be this is how I got it
[20:00:23] <Tecan> (rvd_0Hmt3fM) "Matsuura MC710V Retrofit" by "Andrew Scalzo" is "Tech" - Length: 0:07:14
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[20:06:34] <false> That doesn't look to bad, but that's the case most of the time, it's when you start redoing it you see how bad it really is.
[20:06:55] <false> The machine itself does look like it was never used, they repainted it right?
[20:07:06] <CaptHindsight> original paint
[20:07:10] <false> Damn
[20:07:13] <false> School?
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[20:07:41] <CaptHindsight> don't know, they guy I got it from started on the conversion and gave up
[20:08:11] <false> Are the grinding marks on the gangways still visible?
[20:08:31] <CaptHindsight> the price was low and he delivered to my door for only $200 more from 70 miles away
[20:08:42] <false> What!?
[20:08:56] <andypugh> Why did he give up?
[20:09:00] <false> Can I ask what you paid for it?
[20:10:27] <CaptHindsight> ~$3k, he already sank >$3k in new electronics and he was just over his head, he even added an Allen Bradly Panel View and PLC
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[20:11:19] <false> Man you got lucky there, we paid 3250 euros for a machine that doesnt even come close to what you have there.
[20:11:28] <CaptHindsight> nobody wanted it since it was a partial conversion and he just wanted out of the project
[20:11:42] <false> And we had to pay another 1000 euros in transport
[20:11:52] <false> For the same distance :(
[20:12:48] <false> But considering the prices over here we got lucky to, these machines normally sell for about 4000-5000 over here (netherlands)
[20:12:53] <CaptHindsight> I just had to unload it. Took about 10 minutes using a 40 ton crane
[20:13:43] <false> And I think the one like yours would cost upwards of 10000 considering the condition its in
[20:14:20] <CaptHindsight> I'll finish the Linuxcnc conversion and either rebuild the spindle or upgrade it to something 10K rpm
[20:14:51] <kengu> Tom_itx: i consider it not critical as in it has to happen on exact time..what are those on processors.. cycles what ever. it will still happen in the same split second but in computer time there might be something else going on
[20:15:33] <CaptHindsight> and I wish the X axis was 2 inches longer
[20:15:52] <false> Why?
[20:16:03] <false> You always want it to be just that little bit longers
[20:16:07] <false> -s
[20:16:22] <CaptHindsight> the current parts are 32"
[20:16:33] <false> If you got 1000mm travese you would want 1050mm :P
[20:16:47] <false> Ah, I see
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[20:16:58] <false> How far along are you?
[20:17:29] <CaptHindsight> I'm just running it with Mach right now until I have time
[20:17:51] <false> Are you going to reuse the orignal drives?
[20:18:07] <CaptHindsight> he rebuilt the drives and ungraded the encoders
[20:18:21] <CaptHindsight> upgraded heh
[20:18:22] <false> A nice
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[20:18:57] <CaptHindsight> he wired the ATC to the PLC but it's not currently functional
[20:19:02] <false> :P
[20:19:57] <CaptHindsight> the PLC programming is also nit well thought out, if you kill the PC during E-stop the spindle and coolant start up
[20:20:16] <CaptHindsight> so it's pretty dangerous right now
[20:20:28] <false> That's kind of not what you would want to happen
[20:20:42] <false> Took me a while to figure out the gearbox has only 2 valves and just closes/opens them according to the position switches
[20:21:48] <false> I was looking everywhere for the 3rd one, doesn't help that I am alone so shorting a relay while looking at it was kind of impossible
[20:22:26] <CaptHindsight> try a webcam on a goose neck
[20:22:55] <false> That's a good idea, I'll keep that in mind
[20:23:27] <CaptHindsight> I'm always on the lookout for CNC machines with dead/bad controls
[20:24:04] <false> I'm actually converting this for my own bussines
[20:24:26] <false> I have a prototyping company so a cnc is a big plus
[20:24:27] <CaptHindsight> you can find deals like these a few times a year, even more if you don't mind trucking >1K miles
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[20:24:54] <false> Trucking in europe is kind of expensive undertaking :P
[20:25:15] <CaptHindsight> most shops only want machines with familiar controls
[20:26:00] <CaptHindsight> so they either repair old Fanuc or similar or it sits dead until they need the floor space
[20:26:26] <CaptHindsight> then they just want it gone for ore than a scraper will offer them
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[20:26:29] <false> Yep I worked in a metal working shop for a while, sounds about right
[20:27:06] <false> I need to get back to my tuning, for real this time
[20:27:11] <false> see you later
[20:27:43] <CaptHindsight> heh, no more distractions from me :)
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[20:50:16] <false> CaptHindsight: What kind of following error would I be expecting at 1000mm/s
[20:52:10] <cradek> a dozen encoder counts or less
[20:53:15] <cradek> the only places you should have any significant untunable ferror is at velocity discontinuity (high jerk points)
[20:53:27] <false> Right now I'm at 0.001 when cruising :D
[20:53:41] <false> thats peak peak
[20:53:43] <cradek> at a steady 1000mm/s I'd expect only a few encoder counts of ferror, like 3-4
[20:53:55] <cradek> yep good
[20:56:44] <false> I only have a little undershoot at te beginning about 0.01mm for 0.1 seconds, that gets overcompensated en overshoots by 0.05mm < this line goes straight down, and then corrects to ferror=0.001 in 0.5 seconds. Does that sound about right?
[20:57:01] <cradek> can you share the plot?
[20:57:25] <false> I don't have internet on that pc right now, hold on
[21:02:07] <false> http://tinypic.com/r/ac8ozk/5
[21:02:44] <cradek> ooh I don't like that
[21:02:56] <false> I thought so :P
[21:03:01] <false> didn't look right
[21:03:12] <false> what do you suggest?
[21:03:19] <cradek> that's only 18mm/s? what's the accel?
[21:04:30] <cradek> is something saturating? max pwm output maybe?
[21:05:05] <false> accel is at 500.0, forgot to increase that one
[21:05:38] <false> 1000.0 should do no?
[21:05:54] <cradek> something's going wrong at 14mm/s velocity and it stops accelerating properly
[21:06:14] <cradek> I don't know what's wrong but something is :-/
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[21:07:08] <cradek> 500mm/s2 accel should be fine, maybe it can't even quite do that? I'm not sure what's going on.
[21:08:25] <cradek> what's it sound and feel like? seeing this plot I'd expect to hear some kind of banging or something
[21:08:25] <false> Could be, but the old control accelerated to 6000mm/m in a split second
[21:08:46] <cradek> well something is saturating here, or otherwise going wrong
[21:09:12] <cradek> maybe you should plot the pid output
[21:10:03] <cradek> it takes half a second to settle! that's totally wrong.
[21:10:19] <false> Yeah that's what I thought
[21:10:22] <false> I'll go and do that
[21:10:39] <cradek> check your pid output, pwm output, dac output for saturation
[21:11:06] <cradek> ooh weekend is starting. I'm off, hope you figure it out.
[21:11:56] <false> Me too, thanks!
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[21:19:53] <andypugh> Tomorrow I may start machining myself a new spine.
[21:20:02] <andypugh> This one hurts.
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[21:30:25] <andypugh> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-23802777
[21:31:01] <andypugh> That's on the road outside my parent's house. In fact my dad saw it in their garden but failed to catch it.
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[21:36:18] <false> Heheh, sounds like fun
[21:37:44] <andypugh> 70-year old man v Wallaby, my money would always be on the marsupial.
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[21:43:06] <DJ9DJ> gn8
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[22:29:50] <andypugh> I am not sure I can type any command without a reflexive "sudo" nowadays.
[22:29:56] <andypugh> halrun
[22:30:10] <andypugh> Doh! Well, that proves me wrong.
[22:30:58] <Tom_itx> i do a sudo su upon opening the terminal then don't worry with it
[22:33:36] <andypugh> I don't trust me
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[22:37:57] <Tom_itx> wallabys must be uncommon there
[22:37:59] <Tom_itx> ?
[22:38:19] <Tom_itx> we've got a couple in our zoo but that's about it
[22:38:32] <andypugh> They are not native, no.
[22:39:18] <andypugh> though: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1198642/Return-wallabies-Pictures-prove-Aussie-marsupials-hopped-oblivion--Peak-District.html
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