#linuxcnc | Logs for 2013-07-20

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[01:48:11] <t12> i didnt realize quite how micro
[01:48:13] <t12> the taig lathes are
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[01:51:48] <jdh> how micro are they
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[01:53:14] <t12> the body of the whole thing not incl motor stuff is like 18" x 5"
[01:54:17] <jdh> http://tinyurl.com/mjhdsm7
[01:56:11] <t12> hah
[01:57:13] <PetefromTn> yep I have seen one in person and they are TINY!! Nicely made tho...
[01:57:45] <t12> works pretty well
[01:57:48] <t12> runs out of juice quickly
[01:57:55] <t12> carriage gib needs work
[01:58:18] <t12> then my persuit of absurdist modification begins
[02:07:55] <RyanS> Likewise I didn't realise how big RF-45s are in person. I had only ever seen pictures before
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[02:11:50] <PetefromTn> RF45's are not too small are they. I kinda find this stuff funny because a lot of these machines look similar but when you see them in person it is remarkable the difference between say a X2 and an RF45 or even an 0704. Then you see my Cincinatti arrrow 500 and that looks HUGE until you see a Mazak or a Matsuura or hell even a Fadal, the guy I bought my Cincinatti Arow 500 from has a Fadal 6030 and it is a MONSTER compared
[02:11:50] <PetefromTn> to my VMC. I could not even fit it in my shop...
[02:12:23] <t12> i unfortunately have no concrete floor or ability to move heavy stuff at home
[02:12:32] <t12> so i play with tiny things here and whats available at work
[02:14:17] <RyanS> I was really considering getting a secondhand BP that went for an okay price locally, but at the end of the day it's bigger than what I need and too much of a hassle to get it into the shed/workshop
[02:14:24] <PetefromTn> Understood, big machines are not for everyone that is for sure. My machine is consered small by Commercial Standards but it still scares the crap out of me running it LOL..
[02:14:38] <t12> i WISH i could have big machines
[02:14:55] <t12> i'm in SF though, which more or less means square feet are very expensive to come by
[02:16:05] <PetefromTn> LOL I live in Tennessee but I only have 25x25 foot shop but I got the VMC and quite a few other machines in there okay...
[02:17:07] <t12> at home i think i'm constricted to 30" width to actually get things in anywhere
[02:17:18] <t12> need to find a warehouse somewhere
[02:17:23] <t12> these stick buildings arent for me
[02:17:57] <RyanS> I just purchased a little 4x6 bandsaw. The motor blew after the second very small cut.. I have bad luck with computers and a lot of things I purchase
[02:18:11] <t12> which bandsaw is that?
[02:18:17] <roh> anybody from detroit?
[02:18:35] <t12> i bet sqft are NOT a problem in detroit
[02:18:39] <roycroft> you now have an opportunity to put a proper us or european motor on it
[02:19:06] <roh> t12: heh. i just wanted to congratulate. i live in berlin which is basically bankrupt since around 2001
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[02:19:30] <t12> really? i was unaware
[02:19:36] <t12> whats bankruptcy for a city like there?
[02:19:55] <RyanS> you know that small Chinese bandsaw heaps of places sell
[02:20:07] <roh> no money for nothing. hard limits on every budget, loads of bad management, bad maintainance
[02:20:19] <RyanS> Still under warranty so that they can fix it
[02:20:42] <roh> not good. but it makes space affordable for arts and 'different' businesscases. not neccessarily fully capitalistic ones...
[02:20:54] <t12> san francisco has become totally weird
[02:20:58] <roh> cheap space for theatres, musicians.. etc.
[02:21:09] <t12> property prices/rent are insane
[02:21:44] <t12> even with high minimum wage its pretty hard to do anything but rent a room out of some flat for 50-75% of your income if you're not working in tech or business
[02:21:46] <roh> but that comes to an end slowly... lots of spaces got bought, renovated and sold expensively/rented out expensively.. thus some parts of population get pushed out since rent goes up... etc.
[02:21:53] <roh> the usual cycles.
[02:22:21] <roh> still. compared to other german cities living is still much more affordable.
[02:23:24] <roh> well.. it comes down to hard choices for detroit in the future. elect the right people, follow a long term sustainable plan... get lucky.
[02:23:50] <spacka> or bulldoze the whole thing
[02:23:54] <spacka> forget it existed
[02:24:06] <t12> more likely it turns into a law-free zone
[02:24:12] <spacka> it alredy is
[02:24:14] <roh> i guess if they invest well enough into a few good initiatives, they can be a frontrunner again
[02:24:45] <roh> when all goes to shit, its a chance to rebuild
[02:24:53] <t12> the people from new york moving there to farm empty lots was pretty funny
[02:24:56] <spacka> i don't know if the few people who are left in the city have any ability to run it, and i don't think the hipsters who are moving there are any better
[02:25:12] <roh> every rebuild is a chance to make things better this time. thats much harder if you dont start from scratch
[02:25:33] <RyanS> We only seem to have a couple of major machinery dealers in Australia and it's all import stuff. or really high staff from some other dealers but not much in the middleground
[02:25:37] <roh> t12: eh. whut? farm? as in crops where people had their houses?
[02:25:56] <spacka> most of detroit is empty lots
[02:26:19] <roh> so the houses got bulldozed already?
[02:26:27] <spacka> you can buy a house for $1000 because it's a liability, the empty lots cost more than that
[02:26:34] <t12> crops
[02:26:45] <roh> i can imagine that only partially... we build from stones/concrete here. with cellars etc..
[02:27:02] <roh> thus house usually means 'something made for 50-150 years'
[02:27:14] <t12> i assuem the actual worst thing about detroit is weather
[02:27:31] <roh> still, the space it stands on usually is worth the money, not the building
[02:27:36] <RyanS> How does a city go bankrupt, as in the local government with all its public assets or private industry collectively as well...
[02:27:47] <roh> t12: nah.. can't be that bad. think about england ;)
[02:27:56] <spacka> https://heckeranddecker.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/detroit.jpg
[02:28:09] <roh> wow
[02:28:11] <t12> england weather is ideal imo
[02:28:37] <roh> we got a guy from there in our hackerspace. and he is glad not being on that island anymore.
[02:29:01] <RyanS> An English heatwave is 15C :P
[02:29:07] <spacka> i'm pretty sure we fought a war or two because we didn't like that island anymore
[02:29:10] <roh> we only got 6 month of siberian winter, and then 2-4 month of evil hot summer. lots of rain in between
[02:29:16] <roh> ;)
[02:29:55] <roh> is it time already again?
[02:30:04] <t12> i guess a standard mcmaster dowel pin works as a taig lathe test bar
[02:30:04] <spacka> time for...?
[02:30:21] <roh> to send a daily greetings to the guys in uk, us and where the f* tapping our chats? *greetings*
[02:30:37] <spacka> haha
[02:31:23] <roh> in gdr times people sometimes wished the stasi a nice day also when/after talking with their western relatives on the phone
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[02:31:43] <RyanS> haha
[02:32:27] <roh> we seriously had former stasi officers on tv recently saying 'we could only tap 44 calls at the same time. you said WE were evil.. WTF'
[02:33:15] <MattyMatt> yeah I WTF at that back when prism was called echelon
[02:33:20] <RyanS> Have you seen the 'lives of others'? I think that's what the movie was
[02:33:33] <roh> yup. one of many
[02:33:47] <spacka> i wtf at it back when it was carnivore :p
[02:34:07] <MattyMatt> derpanet
[02:34:15] <spacka> tia
[02:34:24] <roh> well.. i guess that was one too many. even the most conservative person now is pissed.
[02:34:27] <RyanS> Also Goodbye Lenin
[02:34:39] <spacka> roh: no they aren't
[02:34:46] <spacka> unfortunately
[02:34:49] <roh> spacka: here they are.
[02:34:53] <spacka> where is here?
[02:34:59] <spacka> sf?
[02:35:03] <roh> germany ;)
[02:35:09] <spacka> oh
[02:35:15] <spacka> who was just talking about sf..?
[02:35:36] <roh> my guess is that the us will not like the result of the prism scandal. things will change and trust is gone.
[02:35:48] <spacka> the media has already forgotten about it here
[02:35:59] <roh> the rest is like a cold war pokergame. but nice guy is only show now.
[02:36:12] <roh> spacka: its till top topic every day here.
[02:36:15] <spacka> they mentioned it as much as necessary to create a scandal so that they could launch into personal attacks on snowden
[02:36:22] <spacka> which they did for a few weeks
[02:36:28] <spacka> but have mostly stopped all talk about it now
[02:36:34] <MattyMatt> nice guys with robot armies
[02:36:38] <spacka> but it was almost all talk about snowden himself
[02:37:02] <spacka> roh, nobody ever trusted USA because the USA was trustworthy
[02:37:10] <spacka> :P
[02:37:20] <roh> spacka: i dont think one can expect journalism in the us. sadly. no proper funding for that. only infotainment
[02:37:43] <spacka> it's not just here
[02:37:46] <roh> spacka: nah.. its really like a paradigm shift. before there was atleast a fascade of 'law backed state'
[02:37:52] <spacka> the media in finland is garbage too
[02:37:55] <spacka> and if there, where isn't it?
[02:38:15] <roh> now its 'right of the strongest' .. and i dont think the us does want to play that game in the position it is
[02:38:17] <MattyMatt> there's garbage media everywhere, just gotta pick through for the nuggets
[02:38:25] <RyanS> Why is anybody surprised that allies spy on each other....
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[02:38:36] <spacka> RyanS: they're not
[02:38:49] <spacka> are they?
[02:39:27] <MattyMatt> the stink is they share it back, thus bypassing laws about spying on ownfolk
[02:39:27] <roh> nobody of the journalists or normal people does believe the 'we did not know' story of the german government. thus the interresting debates happen when there is no politicians in the room
[02:39:36] <t12> i dunno something like half of the us
[02:39:44] <t12> agrees with the party line re snowden
[02:40:02] <spacka> everybody knows we are spied on. the problem is most people don't care
[02:40:06] <roh> i think maybe warner or whoever has the rights on 1984 and brazil should sue nsa under the dmca for copyright violation ;)
[02:40:09] <t12> well more like
[02:40:10] <MattyMatt> fuckit I say, the world needs a secret undergovt
[02:40:10] <t12> even if you care
[02:40:12] <t12> what do you do about it
[02:40:21] <spacka> that's a second order problem
[02:40:25] <t12> in the end even when you have it pretty shit in the us
[02:40:28] <t12> you have it fairly good
[02:40:36] <t12> when people are hungry stuff will change
[02:40:42] <spacka> yeah, i still like it here
[02:40:53] <t12> people still have alot to lose
[02:40:58] <t12> and likely will for a few more generations at lease
[02:41:00] <t12> least
[02:41:16] <roh> t12: thats not good for me. then things will not change at all. remember.. we are that wellfare state that calculated how much money they can give you not to starve but not live properly
[02:41:31] <spacka> roh: better than nothing :p
[02:41:39] <t12> the US does that too
[02:41:40] <spacka> i mean for the recipient
[02:41:43] <roh> true. still breaks people.
[02:41:44] <t12> you give people enough cash not to riot
[02:41:47] <Tom_itx> spacka, is it really?
[02:41:55] <spacka> for the recipient
[02:42:01] <spacka> you can choose the nothing route if you want
[02:42:05] <spacka> lots of peopel do
[02:42:07] <RyanS> The media generally follows a similar pattern in most countries. It is profit primarily and information after that
[02:42:29] <roh> rips them out of regular society and keeps them down so they become addicted to some kind of support on the long run. capitalism just doesnt need them anymore.
[02:42:42] <t12> with 6-7billion people
[02:42:53] <t12> the idea that everyones gonna pull their own weight/be a productive memory of society
[02:42:58] <t12> is pretty much over
[02:43:05] <spacka> thanks to robots
[02:43:09] <t12> not because they cant, but because whats the point?
[02:43:13] <Tom_itx> no
[02:43:20] <Tom_itx> thanks to government greed
[02:43:32] <MattyMatt> we ain't got robots yet, that can do most jobs
[02:43:45] <t12> depends on how you look at it
[02:43:49] <t12> like in agriculture
[02:43:54] <t12> it's not like robots picking fruit
[02:43:58] <roh> from my pov, capitalism without limits is failing, fast. not only because of greedy banks generating massive inflation, also everything is made by machines. which just need one operator from time to time. so either you are a 'machine juggler', or you are out of a job.
[02:44:01] <t12> but theres no really that much field work anymore
[02:44:11] <t12> (vs history)
[02:44:13] <spacka> but what happens when we do have robots that do almost every job and almost no people are needed to run society
[02:44:34] <RyanS> The private sector isn't greedy too?
[02:44:54] <t12> i think mainly attitudes about society need to change
[02:44:58] <t12> to keep up with the population growth
[02:45:07] <MattyMatt> it's robots wiping old folks asses that we need most
[02:45:13] <roh> the only reason why some people not in development and design (thus production or any repetitative task) lost their jobs _YET_ is because for some reason the machine wasnt flexible or cheap enough. thats changing. fast.
[02:45:29] <MattyMatt> so the young can be allowed to be free to invent robots and shit
[02:45:38] <t12> most people cant do that
[02:45:44] <spacka> i'd argue that robots can even do development and design at some point in the near future... probably even better than we can
[02:45:48] <t12> as in dont and wont have the skill to be engineers
[02:46:01] <spacka> engineers aren't immune
[02:46:11] <t12> its a pretty high bar
[02:46:12] <MattyMatt> robolawyer will shake things up
[02:46:17] <t12> people like to wax about machine learning
[02:46:24] <t12> but it really doesnt seem to be going anywhere to me
[02:46:29] <PetefromTn> The idea that robots will ever take away jobs is a falsehood.
[02:46:37] <spacka> why
[02:46:38] <t12> yeah google can make a car self driving, how many engineer-years did that take?
[02:46:40] <RyanS> And then the robots will take over
[02:46:56] <MattyMatt> I prefer robots to lawyers
[02:46:59] <t12> robots def take away jobs, they wont eliminate them
[02:47:11] <PetefromTn> Because even if you get a robot to do a job you create several jobs just in doing so...
[02:47:22] <spacka> PetefromTn: those jobs can eventually be done by robots too
[02:47:31] <RyanS> Those really human like Japanese robots and creepy
[02:47:38] <t12> or just call unskilled workers robots
[02:47:45] <spacka> there is nothing a human can do that it's impossible for a robot to ever do
[02:47:47] <t12> and have them pick up parts and orient them or whatever on conveyer belts
[02:47:47] <roh> from what i've heard lots of companies around here bring back their production back to germany on the long run (outsourced to the eastern european or some asian country) due to quality and flexibility concerns. also transport is cheaper. and now (compared to 20 years ago) the robot is cheaper than the worker. combined with efficient machines even with our extreme expensive energy costs one can raise quality and produce for the same cost or less now. its crazy. b
[02:47:49] <PetefromTn> there is the engineers who design it, the folks who build it, and the folks who install it, the folks who maintian it, the folks who program it.'
[02:48:07] <spacka> robots will be able to design and build and install and maintain and program
[02:48:15] <PetefromTn> Never happen...
[02:48:15] <spacka> they can already do all those things to a limited extent
[02:48:19] <spacka> ok
[02:48:29] <t12> yeah i dont see that actually happening any time soon
[02:48:34] <roh> my point is: capitalism needs lots of consumers. which have jobs to have money to consume. stuff doesnt work anymore if these are laid off.
[02:48:38] <spacka> maybe not in 10-20 years
[02:48:39] <t12> we can barely pull off dark assembly lines etc
[02:48:43] <spacka> maybe not even in my life
[02:48:54] <MattyMatt> yeah the singularity happens when an AI can write code based on a beer induced bullsession spec
[02:49:03] <spacka> but either we will stagnate because of lack of resources, or that will happen
[02:49:08] <t12> loll MattyMatt
[02:49:33] <roh> t12: why?
[02:49:38] <spacka> i don't know which will happen first
[02:49:56] <t12> because simple stuff with robots is very hard
[02:49:58] <PetefromTn> Also just look at all that is involved in creating a simple three axis robot IE a milling machine. Look at all the suppliers, the creators, the businesses who make their living selling the parts, the programmers who design the software....it just goes on and on..
[02:50:17] <roh> t12: ah. yes... but done properly once...
[02:50:17] <RyanS> roh and robots don't require sick pay
[02:50:22] <spacka> t12 : or just call unskilled workers robots
[02:50:22] <t12> Pete: i agree in general, but i would say that take some product
[02:50:31] <MattyMatt> or pensions
[02:50:32] <t12> even with all that, the number of people-hours per unit output
[02:50:34] <t12> is lower
[02:50:37] <spacka> humans are just fancy robots that are cheap and subsidized by society :)
[02:50:59] <t12> maybe we'll just have some logans run stuff go on
[02:51:00] <roh> RyanS: etc etc ;) in the end.. i am buzzed how society will find a way to redistribute the 'automatisation-dividend'
[02:51:05] <t12> and then dont need pensions and health insurance
[02:51:09] <spacka> you can rent one of the most advanced general purpose machines ever for the price ofminimum wage...
[02:51:14] <RyanS> What happens when robots develop artificial intelligence and demand more maintenance and electricity!
[02:51:17] <spacka> someone else built it, someone else programmed it
[02:51:19] <PetefromTn> Robotics only changes the game a little it will never remove the human element completely.
[02:51:21] <spacka> it can do just about anything
[02:51:26] <spacka> and you pay $10/hour for it
[02:51:30] <roh> a friend of mine is writing a book about that topic. (automatisation and whats happening the last few years)
[02:51:31] <spacka> it's incredible
[02:51:34] <MattyMatt> sex robots will stop the rich wanting poor people to abuse
[02:51:35] <spacka> that's the barrier to entry for robots
[02:52:11] <roh> my guess is that we only have people sitting in trucks on the autobahn now because the insurance companies arent satisfied (yet). another ~50-100 thousand less jobs...
[02:52:22] <spacka> yep
[02:52:31] <spacka> how many in the US?
[02:52:36] <t12> think of how much more awesome
[02:52:38] <spacka> what is the point of a train conductor?
[02:52:41] <t12> hijacking tucks will be
[02:52:43] <t12> when they have no driver
[02:53:42] <roh> t12: well... no doors, locked from inside electronically, drives fast, gps logging? i'd rather recommend a normal one. muuuch easier. just pay the driver. he makes shit money
[02:53:55] <MattyMatt> NY subway had no conductors, so the guardian angels volunteered. are they still going?
[02:54:01] <t12> alternately
[02:54:04] <t12> reprogram truck
[02:54:08] <t12> take contents
[02:54:11] <RyanS> Do people actually drive fast on autobahns, or not insanely so?
[02:54:27] <roh> RyanS: there is a minimum speed of about 60-75kph
[02:54:44] <spacka> most people drive a reasonable speed. some people haul ass
[02:54:47] <spacka> is how i remember it
[02:55:21] <roh> trucks are allowd to do 80-100 (depending on load and type), caravans and stuff with trailer 80, cars no limit.. usually 130-160 is a nice driving speed.
[02:55:44] <roh> and yes there are some insane ones doing about 200.. but that eats gasoline like hell.
[02:56:14] <roh> anything above 120 costs more money than it really brings in time.. it gets nonlinear here because of wind-drag
[02:56:35] <RyanS> But surely 160 is difficult to slow down if something happens?
[02:57:05] <roh> not really.. when you keep proper distance ('halber tacho' -> half speedometer)
[02:57:30] <roh> so.. at 160, atleast 80 metres... but thats quite ... well.. rather give it 200 or more if possible.
[02:57:37] <spacka> 2 second rule
[02:58:06] <roh> also we have regular enforced checkups on the hardware. so ... brakes working, nothing corroded, proper profile etc.
[02:58:07] <spacka> if a deer jumps in front of your car, it's toast even at 30mph
[02:58:26] <roh> and you can only overtake on the _left_ on autobahn.
[02:58:46] <RyanS> German efficiency :P
[02:58:53] <spacka> that's technically the case here too, but it is never enforced
[02:58:57] <roh> also you need to move to the right most lane if empty. then traffic can flow properly at insane speeds.
[02:59:07] <spacka> sometimes people will be driving the speed limit in the left lane of a 10 lane road
[02:59:10] <spacka> and it almost makes me cry
[02:59:20] <spacka> i'm sad just thinking about it :(
[02:59:46] <roh> RyanS: rather a survival tactic.. combined with proper protection (which can only help a bit) we have less than 4000 dead i think per year on the road. russia has >33000
[02:59:52] <t12> here theres too much traffic to ever get going that fast
[03:00:12] <spacka> it's only outside cities where there is no speed limit
[03:00:23] <roh> no brakes, no lights, no safety-margin on distance, bad tires and too fast... then a lada is only as big as a trunk.
[03:00:30] <spacka> the autobahn has speed limits in a lot of its parts
[03:00:40] <spacka> but in the long stretches between cities, they are uncapped
[03:00:45] <MattyMatt> don't cry, build one of these http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtylFugOT_4
[03:00:47] <Tecan> (TtylFugOT_4) "Flying bike Jan tleskac" by "airborneCZ" is "Autos" - Length: 0:00:53
[03:01:08] <MattyMatt> Tecan is a bot now? cool
[03:01:28] <roh> spacka: to be fair, i would be ok with a generic speed limit at about 180 or 200. that gets all the crazies and leaves the one with the proper equipment have their fun when there is space.
[03:01:52] <roh> if you want to go faster. get a pilots licence. *veg*
[03:02:00] <roh> i know some. not that hard.
[03:02:08] <spacka> i dunno. i'm not in favor of laws... and stuff... :p
[03:02:16] <RyanS> When are we going to have flying cars and personal helicopters damnit
[03:02:52] <spacka> some us states used to have no speed limit on the highway. then the federal government threatened to withhold funding
[03:03:06] <roh> on the other side.. if you got the money for a fast car.. just go to a proper course like nuernburgring and race there. much more fun and safe for everybody but yourself :)
[03:03:08] <spacka> so they reduced the limits to the federal government's wishes
[03:03:18] <spacka> now they are slowly creeping back up
[03:03:39] <spacka> 130km/h is about the max still though
[03:03:45] <spacka> but it's getting more common
[03:03:56] <roh> spacka: i think without the rules we have for high speeds, its really dangerous
[03:04:21] <roh> on a autobahn, there are no turns or stopping ever.. if you do, you are nearly dead.
[03:04:37] <spacka> same on any highway i guess
[03:05:12] <RyanS> are German made cars still comparatively expensive to imported ones in Germany?
[03:05:37] <roh> maybe. but i think its quite unusual for highways to have the lanes seperated by direction?
[03:05:50] <roh> RyanS: sure.
[03:05:50] <spacka> what do you mean?
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[03:06:29] <roh> well.. we have a fat metal seperator between the counter-direction lanes.
[03:06:40] <spacka> yeah, we do too
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[03:06:46] <spacka> a metal spacer or a huge field
[03:06:52] <spacka> or trees
[03:06:53] <PetefromTn> Well I finally received the engraving cutters I ordered a full week ago today. Fortunately they look pretty good. Gonna be trying them out here soon on the VMC with router engraver setup I made.
[03:07:03] <roh> well.. usually both. about 10 meters of space and heavy duty metal
[03:07:12] <spacka> but that makes it safer than without
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[03:07:41] <MattyMatt> metal fences are breakaway, calibrated to absorb a truck weight
[03:07:43] <roh> doesnt help always, but it usually keeps stuff from doing the russian style 'swivel over' -> headon
[03:07:57] <spacka> when a car manages to flip over that barrier into oncoming traffic, shit starts to get really f'd up fast :)
[03:08:02] <t12> http://www.youtube.com/user/colinfurze?feature=watch
[03:08:05] <t12> man this guy
[03:08:10] <t12> put a pulse jet on everything guy
[03:08:19] <spacka> hehe
[03:09:02] <roh> t12: hrhr.... i stay electric on my bike
[03:10:03] <t12> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qRzC95YpSE
[03:10:05] <Tecan> (6qRzC95YpSE) "World's Longest Scooter / Motorbike - Direct Bikes - Colin Furze" by "directbikes" is "Autos" - Length: 0:01:41
[03:10:06] <t12> scooter.. limo?
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[03:10:39] <roh> hm. on the other hand.. maybe detroit should use the oppotunity to add some more parks ;)
[03:11:08] <roh> thats what i always liked about berlin. so nice and fresh, cool because of the loads of green. trees, grass...etc
[03:12:37] <t12> i liked washington state for that
[03:13:03] <t12> suburbs in washington seem to be little weird arcologies carved out of forest with roads connecting them
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[03:17:21] <CaptHindsight> http://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-high-resolution-3D-DLP-printer-3D-printer/ crude but works
[03:17:50] <roh> CaptHindsight: you built one?
[03:18:38] <CaptHindsight> roh: not that one, but others that are a bit more sophisticated
[03:19:07] <roh> ah. but same concept (dlp beamer, liquid stuff, uv hardening) ?
[03:19:25] <roh> i'd like to see what quality and resolutions is possible in reality
[03:19:44] <roh> so.. if its worth the trouble.. we got multiple fdm machines now
[03:20:17] <CaptHindsight> sub-micron res is possible
[03:20:56] <roh> do you know about the cost side of material (the plastic soup) and machineparts?
[03:21:00] <CaptHindsight> with a DLP the individual mirrors are ~10um square
[03:21:40] <CaptHindsight> you can reduce the image down to the 1 um or so per pixel
[03:22:25] <roh> i am sure it works.. i mean.. doesnt the stl stuff work like that for years? (well.. ok .. lasers, galvos...)
[03:22:40] <CaptHindsight> photopolymer costs depend on volume, they are down near the cost of injection molding pellets in high volume
[03:22:59] <roh> i am just trying to get a feeling if its worth the money and trouble to get/build one in our lab ;)
[03:23:10] <CaptHindsight> in small quan >$35 Kg
[03:23:35] <roh> still ok. i mean.. even fdm plastic nearly costs that much (i think 30-80E/2kg)
[03:23:38] <CaptHindsight> the DLP types can be 100X the speed of GGG/FDM
[03:24:04] <roh> i guess speed is realtive, same as on fdm, and depends on wanted resolution ;)
[03:24:15] <CaptHindsight> with res of 100um features over 19 x 11 cm
[03:24:31] <roh> so.. in reality.. are prints faster? i guess one wants more quality at the same time as speed compared to fdm
[03:24:51] <CaptHindsight> with DLP an entire layer is printed at one time 1-few seconds
[03:24:54] <roh> nice. thats with a full-hd beamer?
[03:24:59] <CaptHindsight> yes
[03:25:10] <roh> so the biggest cost is i guess that beamer
[03:25:19] <roh> and proper precice mechanics
[03:25:20] <CaptHindsight> so print rates over that area may be 6mm per minute
[03:26:17] <roh> we got a shapercube fdm, one ultimaker, some thing from MIT with a coreXY mechanics and a rostock reprap now. stl or dlp would be nice.
[03:27:05] <roh> hm. i really need to get a source for that soup in europe to convince my co-hackers i guess :)
[03:27:30] <roh> currently the hopes are on the form1 thing.
[03:27:53] <CaptHindsight> Form1 uses only a single laser
[03:28:32] <roh> i know. still interresting since its a 'done device' which one could even sell
[03:28:56] <CaptHindsight> 3D Systems has them tied up in the patent courts
[03:29:25] <roh> meeeh
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[03:32:24] <MattyMatt> sls is the one I want. metal powder is cheap
[03:32:50] <MattyMatt> especially if your shop makes a load of chips already :)
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[06:19:31] <buster142> hallo everybody. Can somebody help me? I've a question about hostmot2 firmware
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[06:40:09] <Jymmm> Most everyone is asleep. Try back around 1300 GMT.
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[07:05:23] <RyanS> Im reading this US army document about turning, which states that hss is good enough for most purposes. But I'm not seeing that reflected in industry which seems to be dominated by carbide to the point where hss is the exception.
[07:15:59] <Cylly> RyanS: that may be because TC is much more durable and easier to change vor uneducated workers
[07:16:16] <Cylly> so its more cost effective to use TC than to use HSS
[07:16:55] <Cylly> but for most lathe jobs HSS is perfectly useable
[07:18:04] <toastydeath> you can run carbide fast as fuck
[07:18:15] <toastydeath> it can be made sharper than hss by controlling the grain formation during sintering
[07:18:30] <Jymmm> toastydeath: how fast?
[07:18:40] <toastydeath> depends on the grade, some will handle only balls fast
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[07:19:32] <Jymmm> toastydeath: Is that fast fucking balls -or- balls fucking fast?
[07:19:49] <toastydeath> clearly fast fucking balls is a tier above balls fucking fast
[07:20:03] <toastydeath> by at least 500 m/min
[07:20:14] <Jymmm> Ok, gotcha.
[07:20:45] <Jymmm> and fast balls fucking?
[07:20:45] <toastydeath> but in all seriousness I've run carbide inserts in aluminum at ridiculous speeds - 6000 rpm on a 5" facemill
[07:21:04] <toastydeath> the determining factor on the rpm was how fast the machine could feed, not the inserts
[07:21:24] <toastydeath> don't open the door during that though, the chips come off molten
[07:21:33] <Jymmm> heh
[07:21:54] <toastydeath> i had a co-worker get hit by chips doing that once on a lathe job, and his ashed off immediately
[07:21:58] <toastydeath> black spots the next day
[07:22:05] <toastydeath> *his skin ashed off
[07:22:26] <Jymmm> ouch
[07:22:47] <toastydeath> on steel it's a bit more conservative, you can't be THAT absurd because the temperature still controls tool life
[07:23:07] <toastydeath> but a cherry red isn't unusual
[07:23:25] <toastydeath> with cbn or ceramic, white hot
[07:23:30] <toastydeath> (but that's not carbide)
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[07:31:45] <Jymmm> toastydeath: Hey, do you have a Dollar Tree in your area?
[07:31:53] <toastydeath> not sure?
[07:31:54] <Cylly> toastydeath: i doubt that "sharper than HSS" bit
[07:32:10] <Jymmm> toastydeath: you would know if you did.
[07:32:10] <toastydeath> i don't, because it can be.
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[07:32:17] <toastydeath> but yeah i've never been to one/seen one
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[07:32:49] <toastydeath> oh, apparently there's one right down the road from me
[07:32:51] <Cylly> tungsten carbide is sintered. you cant really get it sharper than the grain size. HSS can be sharbened to "razor" if needed to. TC holds the sharpness longer, tough
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[07:33:05] <Jymmm> toastydeath: Dollar Tree has car-to-usb adapters for $1
[07:33:28] <toastydeath> and the grain size can be controlled and is often honed or lapped on an ultrasonic form
[07:33:41] <toastydeath> HSS can be sharpened to the grain size as well
[07:34:03] <toastydeath> and grain size in blades is a key issue if the application is edge radius critical
[07:34:16] <toastydeath> whether it's ceramic, carbide, steel, whatever
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[07:35:26] <Jymmm> toastydeath: The adapters have a chip that can accept 40V input
[07:35:48] <toastydeath> what are you doing with 40v dc regulators?
[07:35:52] <Cylly> in short one could say (to RyanS) that a hss bit is cheaper and easier ground to special needs but TC is more durable and much faster.
[07:36:05] <Jymmm> toastydeath: 24VDC to 5V
[07:36:07] <Cylly> so its easy to see why the industry uses TC
[07:36:17] <toastydeath> he's also reading a document published in the 1950s
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[07:36:28] <toastydeath> which i think is the overriding factor here
[07:36:46] <Cylly> that may be so
[07:37:26] <Cylly> but for hobba applications where speed is not an issue one can use HSS for most applications perfectly well
[07:37:30] <Cylly> hobby
[07:37:35] <Jymmm> toastydeath: 24VDC , as in what most control panel voltages are.
[07:37:58] <toastydeath> Cylly, yep, i totally agree, but that wasn't his question
[07:38:19] <toastydeath> or at least i didn't read that to be his question
[07:38:32] <Cylly> Jymmm: the 1$ car-> usb adapters have a sign on it telling you to NOT use them with running engine, havent they?
[07:39:05] <Jymmm> toastydeath: But, in my immediate case.... I can connect directly to my solar blanket
[07:39:19] <Cylly> (i doubt that one can build a smps that can withstand "supply from hell" for 1$)
[07:39:41] Cylly is now known as Loetmichel
[07:39:42] <Jymmm> Cylly: It's rated at 5V@1A
[07:39:53] <Loetmichel> Jymmm: thats not the probnlem
[07:40:33] <Jymmm> Loetmichel: then quit beating around the bush
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[07:41:38] <Loetmichel> cars oboard power is cited "supply from hell" for a reason. voltage varying from 8V to 15V depending on starting/charging, spikes up to 100V +- from disengaging starter motors/ relais....
[07:42:31] <Loetmichel> to get that straight and not to damage the usb "client" or the smps you have to do excessive filtering and protecting circuits.
[07:42:56] <Loetmichel> or write " do not use with running engine" on the charger ;-)
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[07:43:42] <Jymmm> Eh, I underand over voltages it slighyl, it did ok.
[07:46:00] <Loetmichel> it will. most of the time. :-)
[07:46:46] <Jymmm> I know. EMI will be the biggest issue.
[07:47:37] <Loetmichel> what i wanted to say: dont expect a 1$ charger to protect your device from being destroyed when used while driving. can and will happen with a much greater probability than zero
[07:48:30] <Jymmm> Loetmichel: http://www.ti.com/product/mc34063a
[07:49:05] <Loetmichel> i know these chips.
[07:49:21] <toastydeath> i read that in the voice of darth vader
[07:49:35] <Jymmm> thats whats in the car2usb
[07:50:09] <Loetmichel> toastydeath: what?
[07:52:58] <toastydeath> i read your comment in the voice of darth vader
[07:52:59] <toastydeath> it just
[07:53:01] <toastydeath> seemed appropriate
[07:53:35] <Loetmichel> Jymmm: i have a car charger here with that "dont drive" label and one with an "E-number" so it is proofed to work with a running engine. inside: the same smps chip, but the approved charger has about 20 parts for filtering more in it (chokes, TVS diodes, some Caps and so on)
[07:54:07] <Loetmichel> toastydeath: i am not THAT ugly ;-)
[07:54:12] <toastydeath> haha
[07:55:16] <Loetmichel> ... and a bit more fat ;-) http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=14295
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[08:01:26] <toastydeath> so lately i've had a photography problem
[08:01:40] <toastydeath> in that I thought I'd do it for money, then decided to wait longer before making that jump because everyone was hemming and hawing
[08:01:59] <toastydeath> but like a week later, now people are coming to me with offers
[08:02:51] <toastydeath> and not paid but still interesting is friend of mine who used to do modeling and now wants to rebuild her portfolio with some alt/fetish work
[08:03:24] <Loetmichel> it seems i have to learn more english... didnt understand the last few sentences of you ;-)
[08:03:39] <toastydeath> ?
[08:04:10] <Loetmichel> " i dont know what you are taling about" ;-)
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