#linuxcnc | Logs for 2013-06-14

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[00:00:11] <atom1> yes
[00:00:18] <pfred1> same 7i43 or a different one?
[00:00:45] <atom1> one is running 8.04 and the other is running 10.04 both with 2.5.2 and same mesa cards
[00:00:59] <pfred1> so the mesa card is the constant?
[00:01:21] <atom1> i'm not ready to blame anything just yet
[00:01:33] <pfred1> well you have to blame the one thing the problem follows around
[00:01:35] <atom1> but i have swapped out parport cables and pcs
[00:01:52] <PCW> Unless its shorts out your power, I dont see how the 7I43 can cause this kind of error
[00:02:33] <atom1> i haven't noticed any power issues but don't have a meter on the supply either
[00:02:38] <PCW> even if it scrambles the EPP bus the worst you will get is a EPP timeout
[00:03:02] <atom1> no errors to the log file when it quit this time
[00:03:09] <atom1> it just stopped
[00:03:56] <atom1> i replugged the mouse to get it back
[00:04:08] <pfred1> oh man don't hot swap PS/2
[00:04:58] <pfred1> usually modern hardware tolerates it but there is no guarantee it will
[00:05:43] <PCW> Try the sample 7I43 config (with step drives powered down)
[00:06:36] -!- Valen [Valen!~Valen@c211-30-129-65.blktn6.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #linuxcnc
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[00:07:15] <atom1> not sure i can do that easily without unplugging a bunch of wires
[00:07:46] <PCW> cant just turn off step motor power?
[00:07:56] <atom1> i'm running a 7i47b bit file
[00:08:08] <atom1> the 5v is wired into the main supply
[00:08:24] <atom1> well it's using a center tap
[00:08:35] <pfred1> a center tap you say?
[00:08:43] <atom1> 24v
[00:08:54] <atom1> 48 is too much for the smps
[00:09:21] * pfred1 is jealous
[00:09:28] <pfred1> I only run 24V
[00:09:35] <pfred1> crappy TB6560s
[00:09:57] <PCW> You could unplug the flat cables from the 7I43 (with power down)
[00:10:25] <atom1> the 50 pin?
[00:10:44] <atom1> part of the wiring is on the 7i43 though
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[00:10:55] <atom1> no 50 pin on the 2nd port
[00:11:22] <PCW> but I really doubt its I/O related, nothing low level I/O can do to interp sequence to make it skip ahead
[00:11:35] <atom1> i could unplug the geckos
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[00:12:22] <atom1> wanna have a look at it next week? :)
[00:12:44] <PCW> also if you had EPP errors you would expect timeouts and ferrors
[00:12:56] <atom1> i'm not logging any errors yet
[00:13:43] <PCW> yeah really looks like a memory/stack kind of problem
[00:14:11] <atom1> would swapping cards around make a difference?
[00:14:14] <atom1> or unplugging one
[00:14:31] <atom1> i think i can run 1 on this board but i'm not sure
[00:14:40] <atom1> it's got 8G iirc
[00:14:46] <atom1> 4 or 8
[00:15:19] <atom1> how would that explain errors on the other PC?
[00:15:49] <PCW> config file error?
[00:16:16] <PCW> did you change something in the HAL or INI?
[00:16:33] <atom1> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/cnc/configs/sherline/
[00:16:47] <atom1> there they are except i removed the halui stuff
[00:16:53] <atom1> postgui i mean
[00:17:14] <atom1> from the ini
[00:17:28] <pfred1> PCW initially RAM errors were my gut guess
[00:18:42] -!- maximilian_h [maximilian_h!~bonsai@g228002027.adsl.alicedsl.de] has parted #linuxcnc
[00:18:48] <pfred1> atom1 before I run LinuxCNC on a machine I really like to stress test it to make sure it is 100%
[00:19:22] <pfred1> LinuxCNC can be enough of a pain without other issues cropping up to make it even more interesting than it already is
[00:19:55] <atom1> i'm gonna shut it down for tonight
[00:20:03] <pfred1> no run memtest
[00:20:16] <pfred1> just let it run a bunch of passes
[00:20:34] <pfred1> even memtest doesn't catch all RAM errors though
[00:21:16] <pfred1> but if you can do 3 passes OK it is a good sign
[00:22:18] <atom1> where do i find that?
[00:22:25] <pfred1> it should be on the install CD
[00:22:36] <pfred1> should be an option on the boot menu
[00:22:55] <pfred1> says something like memory check or test or some such
[00:23:11] <pfred1> almost every LInux install has memtest
[00:23:53] <pfred1> or you can download like a flash image of it off the net
[00:24:13] <pfred1> but it should be right in the opening boot screen of the install CD
[00:24:42] <atom1> i'll go look for it
[00:24:42] <atom1> bbl
[00:24:47] <pfred1> it is basically a hacked Linux kernel and all it does is check your RAM
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[00:26:32] <pfred1> I had flakey RAM issues with the last PC I setup LinuxCNC on but I got them straightened out
[00:34:39] <Jymmm> pfred1: "Value Ram" ?
[00:35:11] <pfred1> Jymmm no it was pretty good stuff actually
[00:36:28] <Jymmm> pfred1: Ah. I just bought 16GB but paid a lil extra for the good stuff as it's "technically" not supported =)
[00:36:58] <pfred1> all RAM is pretty delicate stuff
[00:37:09] <pfred1> billions of parts and if one goes it is shot
[00:37:22] <Jymmm> pfred1: It can be, but this has better specs than most.
[00:37:28] <pfred1> doesn't matter
[00:37:45] <Jymmm> pfred1: Corsair Vengence
[00:37:49] <pfred1> not like any RAM manufacturer can rewrite the laws of physics to favor their hardware or anything
[00:38:05] -!- jfire has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
[00:38:43] <pfred1> far as i know there are only really 3 RAM manufacturers in the world anyways
[00:38:55] <pfred1> least people who actually make the chip dies
[00:44:04] <Tom_itx> this is kingston
[00:44:06] <Tom_itx> ram
[00:44:40] <pfred1> any ram can go bad
[00:44:57] <pfred1> the law of high numbers just works against the stuff
[00:44:59] <Tom_itx> i'm aware of that
[00:45:52] <pfred1> supposedly Linux can map around bad RAM
[00:46:40] <pfred1> I had one module go bad on me and I was in X Window and when I opened up firefox my machine like turned into molassass
[00:46:47] <pfred1> I was like what the heck?
[00:47:07] <pfred1> then I did free -m and the machine reported i only had 22Mb of RAM installed
[00:47:54] <pfred1> up until I tried to run the browser it seemed OK
[00:48:31] <pfred1> another place where bad RAM will show up is during big compiles
[00:48:52] <pfred1> where the machine will create huge data structures in RAM GCC will catch checksum errors
[00:49:12] <Tom_itx> i'll let this memtest run a while
[00:49:17] <pfred1> GCC is probably the best RAM test on the planet
[00:49:33] <pfred1> I've seen it catch RAM that memtest didn't
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[00:50:46] <pfred1> Tom_itx if memtest hasn't caught anything in 3 passes it probably won't catch anything at all
[00:50:59] <pfred1> but I've seen bad RAM pass memtest too
[00:51:18] <gene78> Back from dinner, now, what do i do to make linuxcnc-dev install?
[00:51:37] <pfred1> aptitude install linuxcnc-dev ?
[00:52:53] <pfred1> that is assuming the package name is really linuxcnc-dev and you have aptitude installed
[00:52:53] <gene78> I'm on the 2.6.0-pre branch, and becauseof dependencies nothiing in linuxcnc will update
[00:53:14] <gene78> yup, thats all here.
[00:53:35] <pfred1> well a lot of folks say not to update
[00:53:52] <pfred1> but i have without negative consequences
[00:54:04] <pfred1> but I usually build a custom kernel too
[00:54:17] <gene78> libmodbus is the depemdency its yelling about
[00:54:49] <pfred1> it doesn't exist on my Squeeze system
[00:55:18] <gene78> This is 10.04-4 LTS, stock kernel
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[00:55:25] <pfred1> you might have to rebuild your dpkg database
[00:55:53] <pfred1> yeah whatever package that is is obsolete now as far as Debian is concerned
[00:56:45] <gene78> Its also saying that the dev package is for a newer build than I have. Too bad I can't copy-paste between machne screens
[00:57:01] <pfred1> start an ssh session
[00:57:38] <gene78> Whats the routine to rebuild the dpkg database?
[00:58:05] <pfred1> that's a good question I've redone it but when I did it the command to do it was right on the screen for me
[00:58:38] <gene78> Let e see if I can do it on this machine. BRB
[00:59:49] <pfred1> http://people.adams.edu/~cdmiller/posts/Ubuntu-dpkg-recovery/
[01:00:14] <pfred1> I didn't have to do all of that it was like a single command as I can recall
[01:00:17] <gene78> linuxcnc-dev:
[01:00:19] <gene78> Depends: linuxcnc (=1:2.6.0~pre0.4496.gd2f30b2) but 1:2.6.0~pre0.4470.g3e81d30 is to be installed
[01:00:40] <pfred1> update your database aptitude update
[01:02:14] <pfred1> that is kind of kooky it looks like the cev package is a bit behind
[01:02:18] <pfred1> dev package even
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[01:04:27] <pfred1> man a lot of the ubuntu help seems less than helpful anymore
[01:05:05] <gene78> aptitude update wants to fix it by removing linuxcnc
[01:05:21] <pfred1> this is when I start to hate dependencies
[01:05:37] <Valen> anybody in .au looking for hardware http://www.graysonline.com/sale/5006729/manufacturing/insolvency-sale-unreserved-cnc-engineering-equipment?spr=true
[01:05:59] <gene78> makes 2 of us
[01:06:58] <gene78> does this problem exist if i go back to the 2.5.2 branch?
[01:07:16] <pfred1> I don't know I built LinuxCNC from git
[01:07:43] <gene78> which branch?
[01:08:15] <pfred1> I think 2.6
[01:08:25] <pfred1> it was like a month or so ago
[01:08:34] <gene78> humm, on which distro?
[01:08:56] <pfred1> well first i tried Gentoo and ran into a few problems so I went to Debian Squeeze and got it all to work there
[01:09:07] <pfred1> http://i.imgur.com/FUL7PwG.png
[01:09:21] <pfred1> now that i have some of the config wrinkles ironed out I may try gentoo again
[01:09:37] <gene78> a month ago it was fine, and being updated almost daily. but its been gghosted out for a week or more now.
[01:10:08] <pfred1> I had problems getting RTAI from cvs but there was a work around for that
[01:10:32] <pfred1> seems their cvs server is broken
[01:11:33] <gene78> ah, well, i expect it will get sorted, i was hoping before Wichita though.
[01:11:45] <pfred1> it does seem like you have to wait until the planets are aligned to get this stuff to work sometimes
[01:11:57] <gene78> :)
[01:12:22] <pfred1> building LinuxCNC from source and getting it to work isn't always a trivial feat
[01:12:54] <pfred1> I had to email some guy in italy who writes RTAI to figure out the final thing
[01:13:28] <pfred1> had to do with the fact I was using a multi core CPU
[01:14:20] <pfred1> but he told me one setting to do in the kenel and it all worked after that
[01:14:49] <gene78> which is why I let TPTB do it,I just report what I think is a bug. :) Learning a new language at my age (78) is probably not in the cards. Sigh.
[01:15:08] <pfred1> I'm 48 so I'm kind of pre PC myself
[01:15:17] <gene78> I can recall when that was fun, 40 years ago.,,
[01:15:17] <pfred1> but i try
[01:16:14] <gene78> so I think I'll head back to the house for the night, thanks.
[01:16:17] <pfred1> from what I've seen of the stock kernel config going through the trouble does seem worth it to me
[01:16:30] <pfred1> it is a kitchen sink of sorts
[01:17:33] <pfred1> my system was loading all kinds of modules and drivers it didn't really need
[01:18:10] <Tom_itx> you gotta be able to determine what you need and don't need before attempting that though
[01:18:20] <Tom_itx> i'm not close to that
[01:18:26] <pfred1> Tom_itx it's not that hard
[01:18:46] <Tom_itx> nothing is that hard once you've done it once or twice
[01:18:48] <pfred1> run this lspci -vv | grep driver
[01:18:54] <pfred1> that is half of the battle
[01:19:19] <pfred1> if it ain't there you probably don't really need it
[01:19:59] <pfred1> now do modprobe
[01:20:04] <pfred1> and see how long that list is
[01:20:37] <pfred1> well lsmod actually
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[01:21:35] <pfred1> on stock kernels a lot of modules load that are questionable if you really need them
[01:22:39] <pfred1> one thing Gentoo got me into again was getting away from an initramfs
[01:22:52] <pfred1> and building just what I needed monolithically into the kernel
[01:23:06] <pfred1> until I ran Gentoo I didn't even think it was possible to do that anymore
[01:24:32] <pfred1> configuring a kernel well is pretty challenging to do even if you've done it a dozen times
[01:24:47] <pfred1> there are an awful lot of options
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[01:25:06] <pfred1> somewhere north of 2,700 the last time I looked
[01:25:56] <pfred1> honestly it takes me a few tries on any machine I do it on sometimes as many as 6
[01:26:21] <pfred1> but by then I get close to dialed in
[01:27:07] <pfred1> I should build a new kernel for this system it has a cockeyed bug in it that annoys me
[01:30:04] <pfred1> if I don't issue a command similar to this my dmesg gets spammed with messages echo "1" > /sys/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1d.7/usb3/3-6/avoid_reset_quirk
[01:31:18] <pfred1> but my other fix is to just not look at dmesg :)
[01:32:17] <pfred1> because other than that this PC is all of that and a bag of chips as far as I'm concerned
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[01:45:49] <Willburrrr2003> wooohooo , after working on my system the last couple days i finally have modbus communicating with my external PLC !
[01:47:05] <Willburrrr2003> so far i only have clasic ladder turning on a relay output in my PLC, but i feel it is a big step forward!
[01:51:55] <skunkworks> yay!
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[01:57:37] <Willburrrr2003> i am not seeing a modbus setting to read internal bits from the PLC, they are the equivilant of the classicladder %B variables...anyone know which setting will let me read internal bits?
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[02:03:06] <Willburrrr2003> having communications to my external PLC leave lots of exciting possibilities, like setting up an automatic tool turret which i have been dreaming of for awile now
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[02:31:52] <Tom_itx> pfred1, first pass no errors
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[02:33:31] <pfred1> Tom_itx keep it up
[02:33:51] <pfred1> it takes a while huh?
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[02:46:10] <Tom_itx> i just let it run
[02:46:17] <Tom_itx> and went on to other stuff
[02:50:30] <Willburrrr2003> what are you making?
[02:51:04] <Tom_itx> just trying to get the mill to run without errors
[02:51:18] <Willburrrr2003> ahhhh ok
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[02:51:41] <Willburrrr2003> what errors have you been experiencing?
[02:52:07] <tjb1> postaL: ?
[02:52:12] <skunkworks> I had a hd go bad and cause all kinds of odd issues
[02:52:44] <Willburrrr2003> that sucks
[02:53:33] <skunkworks> long pauses - var file corruption.. and finally the mesa watchdog bit and sent the machine into estop. the smart data for the drive showed a high number of pending sector relocations.
[02:54:18] <skunkworks> it was a re-purposed hd... I wasn't suprised..
[02:54:31] <pfred1> skunkworks there is smart for Linux
[02:54:57] <skunkworks> yep. (well you can see it in the disk utillity...)
[02:55:06] <skunkworks> that is what I use...
[02:55:07] <Willburrrr2003> that reminds me, i should back up my config files after my recent upgrades
[02:55:09] <pfred1> I use gsmartcontrol
[02:56:05] <pfred1> I had one HDD go flakey on me and I ran fdisk on it and told it whatever as far as repairing errors go and that disk lasted for years after that
[02:56:13] <pfred1> well fsck
[02:56:31] <pfred1> but before i fixed it I couldn't even mount it
[02:57:12] <pfred1> as far as I know that HDD is still good in whatever system I have it in
[02:58:06] <pfred1> although I'm not sure I'd totally trust it myself for anything important
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[02:58:34] <pfred1> overall Linux does seem to go pretty easy on HDDs
[02:59:16] <pfred1> I have a system with a 14 year old HDD in it and when it cracked 10 years i started getting a little worried about the HDD dying in it
[02:59:26] <pfred1> but it just kept working and working
[03:00:16] <pfred1> again as far as i know if I hit the power button on that PC today it'd still work
[03:00:39] <pfred1> but for the first 14 years that PC ran 24/7/365
[03:01:00] <ssi> you've had better luck with hard drives than me then
[03:01:20] <pfred1> ssi you run Linux all of the time?
[03:01:23] <ssi> yep
[03:01:27] <pfred1> wow
[03:01:36] <ssi> I had an ipcop router here that had an eight year uptime
[03:01:40] <ssi> finally got reset
[03:01:41] <pfred1> well when I ran Windows I did go through some HDDs back then
[03:01:45] <ssi> and it wouldn't come back up
[03:01:50] <ssi> hdd wouldn't make it through fsck
[03:02:11] <ssi> linux is definitely easier on drives than windows is
[03:02:24] <ssi> cause windows swaps constantly and thrashes the disk heh
[03:02:28] <pfred1> yup
[03:02:44] <pfred1> Linux manages hardware way better
[03:02:44] <RyanS> This is hilarious I bought this item a couple of years ago http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Special-Magnetic-Base-0-40-0-Dial-test-indicator-Measure-Bool-/160789014681?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item256fc5a899
[03:03:20] <pfred1> RyanS what is so funny about it?
[03:03:29] <RyanS> it is literally identical to this http://www.uktools.com/mitutoyo-513-415e-dial-test-indicator-101mm-p-64736.html?osCsid=e992df032d9ea1a4e0fa71919d6faa35
[03:04:19] <pfred1> so they fell off of a boat
[03:04:28] <RyanS> even says made in Japan on the front, it's like the genuine Rolex of dial test indicators
[03:04:31] <Tom_itx> the errors i've been getting are all in this log
[03:04:33] <pfred1> their loss is your gain!
[03:05:11] <pfred1> until I dropped my dial calipers they worked great
[03:05:23] <pfred1> turned out they weren't too shockproof
[03:05:37] <pfred1> but they were some cheap Chinese off brand
[03:05:43] <RyanS> so it could be some grey market thing or it's literally a knockoff
[03:05:46] <ssi> even good ones don't survive mistreatment :/
[03:05:53] <ssi> I have a couple pairs of nice calipers that both need repair
[03:05:58] <ssi> or maybe are beyond repair, I dunno
[03:06:01] <pfred1> yeah it was a high drop onto a concrete floor
[03:06:01] <ssi> so I mostly just get cheap ones
[03:06:09] <ssi> i'm hard on stuff like calipers
[03:06:27] <ssi> sucks, cause I really like nice ones
[03:06:28] <pfred1> mine lasted quite some time 10 years?
[03:06:39] <ssi> but I'm hesitant to spend more money on new ones
[03:06:53] <RyanS> You think a phoney DTI is necessarily less accurate?
[03:07:06] <ssi> nah
[03:07:19] <ssi> it'll be less smooth, more stiction, which could impact fine repeatability
[03:07:25] <pfred1> well my work is never too close tolerance even cheap measuring equipment is better than I am likely going to do
[03:07:50] <pfred1> I have a micrometer set but they just sit on a shelf it simply doesn't come down to it
[03:08:04] <ssi> I'd rather have two cheap .001" DTIs and two cheap .0001" DTIs than just one nice .001"
[03:08:38] <jdh> I have 5 or 6 HF digi ones and one 0.0005 mituyo. Other than one flakey HF that won't old 0, they all read the same. Half a thou is better than I can do :(
[03:08:42] <pfred1> I don't know what brand my mikes are but they're Polish with standards etc
[03:08:55] <pfred1> supposedly better than chinese stuff
[03:09:06] <ssi> https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/303191_725209428042_2131740446_n.jpg
[03:09:15] <ssi> those are older but decent .001
[03:09:23] <ssi> I put chinese .0001" on it after it was dialed in there
[03:11:03] <RyanS> the thing with DTI I only ever see them being used to zero things so you sort of take a nominal value rather than literally taking a 'measurement'?
[03:11:11] <ssi> that's right
[03:11:17] <ssi> because they don't have a reference
[03:11:48] <ssi> they're for measuring runout, backlash, etc
[03:11:49] <pfred1> well they get used on surface plates with stands
[03:12:01] <ssi> yeah that too
[03:12:14] <ssi> although I mostly use a height gage for that
[03:12:16] <RyanS> So it's probably not as supercritical as something like a micrometer
[03:12:20] <jdh> it was 'it' with my right hand one key to the right
[03:12:24] <jdh> <urk>
[03:12:58] <pfred1> RyanS I worked in a tool and die shop and on one piece of equipment we built the final test we'd mount a carbide ball in the unit and indicate it
[03:13:16] <pfred1> it the needle moved more than a half a tick it was no good
[03:13:29] <pfred1> if even
[03:13:57] <pfred1> once i made one and the needle didn't even move I thought I broke the indicator
[03:14:14] <pfred1> turned out i just got lucky and the thing had no play in it at all
[03:14:35] <pfred1> I had 3 other people look at it
[03:14:42] <ssi> there's a vido of a guy making parts on an HNC and measuring them with I think a 50uinch passometer
[03:14:46] <ssi> it's pretty impressive
[03:16:19] <RyanS> So what's the big daddy of metrology equipment that if you can't trust its accuracy you can't trust any other piece of equipment (the master reference). Something you can't even look at the wrong way for fear of upsetting its accuracy?
[03:16:38] <pfred1> instead of the diamond we had carbide balls soldered to shafts we'd put in these things http://thumbs2.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mLlg-pSA33bGrxOnEplJHfQ.jpg
[03:16:54] <pfred1> then move it through it's range of motion
[03:17:19] <RyanS> Or hurting its feelings if you misstreat it
[03:17:26] * pfred1 knows how to make one of those
[03:17:28] <ssi> RyanS: neat thing is if you have enough time, you can make all your references :)
[03:17:58] <pfred1> that one there new you're talking about $5,000
[03:17:58] <RyanS> But how could you make your own reference if you don't have another reference that you know is accurate
[03:18:07] <ssi> RyanS: by making more than one
[03:18:16] <ssi> RyanS: you can make a flat surface by scraping two surfaces together
[03:18:23] <pfred1> 3 surfaces
[03:18:24] <ssi> you can make reference squares by scraping THREE together
[03:18:29] <ssi> you can do 2 surfaces
[03:18:33] <pfred1> 2 one could be convex one concave
[03:18:34] <ssi> you jsut have to rotate one 90 degrees
[03:18:40] <ssi> yeah that's true
[03:18:42] <ssi> 3 surfaces then
[03:18:47] <pfred1> the rule of 3
[03:19:01] <pfred1> 3 surfaces they all have to be flat to each other
[03:19:03] <ssi> I dunno how you'd get an accurate inch
[03:19:04] <RyanS> but how do you know if those two are accurate if you can't reference this to something else?
[03:19:24] <ssi> RyanS: like pfred is saying, if there are three that all spot together, they're definitely accurate
[03:19:39] <pfred1> there is no combination of convex and concave that'll work out touching on all 3
[03:20:05] <ssi> well yes there is, if you don't check in 90 degree orientations
[03:20:07] <ssi> a potato chip shape
[03:20:10] <ssi> like a pringle
[03:20:18] <ssi> it'd be possible to spot all three together in a specific orientation
[03:20:25] <pfred1> all I'm saying is 2 never works
[03:20:44] <pfred1> or you can't be sure
[03:20:46] <ssi> right
[03:21:05] <pfred1> I see 3 work that is good enough for me!
[03:21:45] <pfred1> I know with the metric system now the reference is a wavelength of light
[03:21:50] <ssi> yeah
[03:21:59] <ssi> but that's hard to meausre with caveman tools
[03:22:12] <pfred1> it used to be a platinum bar but if you picked it up the heat from your hand would distort it
[03:22:39] <ssi> a decent screw-type micrometer is a remarkably accurate and durable tool to have around
[03:22:48] <ssi> but that'll distort by microinches from hand heat too
[03:22:58] <pfred1> what blows my mind is how accuratly they could measure things 100 years ago
[03:23:02] <ssi> and I dunno how you cut a 40tpi screw without another 40tpi screw
[03:23:04] <ssi> yeah
[03:23:41] <pfred1> I mean 100 years ago somehow they knew about the platinum bar problem
[03:23:51] <pfred1> they didn't have a solution but they were aware of it
[03:23:58] <RyanS> some youtube video did "Chinese spotting" and blued a banana and squished it on a way. i dont get it
[03:24:45] <pfred1> RyanS if you ever saw the gib out of my milling machine you'd get it
[03:25:21] <pfred1> thing looks like it got surfaced by being tossed in the gravel driveway of the plant
[03:25:32] <pfred1> and letting truck run over it repeatedly
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[03:27:02] <RyanS> they just dont use an accurate reference so might as well be a banana ?]
[03:27:18] <pfred1> I think what the Chinese do is they have trade schools where they make the stuff they ship to us
[03:27:41] <pfred1> then once the students get good they get moved somewhere else where they keep the goods they make
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[03:29:29] <pfred1> I used to buy a lot of chinese stuff not so much anymore
[03:29:54] <pfred1> I've gotten burned too many times sometimes literally
[03:30:15] <pfred1> once i was running this jig saw it was a bosch knock off the thing blew up in my hand
[03:30:22] <ssi> lol
[03:30:25] <jdh> I did some cuts this evening with a brand new chinese 6mm 2flute end mill. The cut liked like someone had used a screwdriver on it
[03:30:35] <pfred1> I did a forensic of it afterwards it was quite devlish how it happened
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[03:30:45] <ssi> me and my friend once had the brilliant idea that we could make cheap brass tumblers by buying $7 oscillating sanders from harbor freigth and bolting them to tumbler bowls
[03:30:57] <ssi> it worked ok, but the things caught on fire after running continuously for an hour
[03:31:12] <pfred1> there was this ceramic piece in there kind of rough that the trigger wiped against
[03:31:25] <pfred1> well as the trigger wiped the copper built up on that roug hceramic
[03:31:36] <pfred1> once the copper built up enough kaboom!
[03:32:16] <pfred1> it was like a freaking time bomb
[03:32:31] <pfred1> every time you pulled the trigger yo ugot a little closer to it blowing up
[03:32:36] <ssi> awesome
[03:32:59] <pfred1> man when that thing blew up in my hand I threw it
[03:33:10] <pfred1> it was like an electrical explosion going on with it
[03:33:24] <pfred1> it was nothing you wanted to be holding let me tell you
[03:33:34] <RyanS> Imagined in 100 years however if meteorologists go "you know that master reference in the museum of 1 m", "well the super accurate instrument we measured it with and then sore the results in light waves - it was wrong"
[03:33:59] <RyanS> Every measurement we have taken since was wrong
[03:34:13] <ssi> well the beautiful thing is it can't be wrong
[03:34:17] <pfred1> the whole metric system was originally based on a flawed measurement of the Earth
[03:34:20] <ssi> because we DEFINED THE UNIT in terms of the wavelength
[03:34:21] <jdh> it's arbitrary anyway
[03:34:35] <pfred1> it was supposed to be 10,000 kilometers from the equator to the pole or something
[03:34:43] <pfred1> but it isn't even close
[03:34:59] <pfred1> they totally blew calculating the diameter of the planet
[03:35:02] <ssi> lol
[03:35:15] <ssi> well it'd be a quarter circumference
[03:35:38] <pfred1> well all I'm saying is they messed it up from the word go
[03:35:39] <ssi> and how the hell do you measure that accurately in 1800s tech anyway?
[03:35:47] <pfred1> apparently they didn't
[03:35:49] <ssi> :D
[03:36:00] <pfred1> but you can do it with trig
[03:36:02] <toastyde2th> didn't some egyptian get the circumfrence (hence the diameter) within 2%?
[03:36:06] <toastyde2th> like, waaay back in the day?
[03:36:07] <ssi> yeah I guess so
[03:36:07] <pfred1> some greek looked down a well and got close
[03:36:25] <ssi> shoot a star with an astrolabe, walk north, shoot it again
[03:36:28] <ssi> trig it out
[03:36:33] <pfred1> toastyde2th it was a greek
[03:36:34] <ssi> something like that
[03:36:46] <pfred1> in like 2,500 BC
[03:36:47] <ssi> I dunno, I never studied celnav
[03:36:55] <RyanS> I can tolerate decimal Imperial but I looked at a model steam engine plan, it was all in fractions and my brain melted
[03:37:06] <ssi> hahaha
[03:37:13] <pfred1> fractions are good for construction
[03:37:15] <ssi> I can deal with fractions
[03:37:24] <ssi> most of my airplane work is in fractions
[03:37:26] <ssi> to the 64th
[03:37:36] <ssi> it's easy
[03:37:40] <ssi> a 32nd is about 0.032
[03:37:43] <ssi> 0.03125
[03:37:48] <pfred1> 64s are tough for me to make out on a scale 16ths aren't bad though
[03:38:01] <ssi> 64ths aren't bad on a decent scale
[03:38:19] <pfred1> nah I'd rather use calipers
[03:38:22] <ssi> there's a couple of those key numbers you remember and everything's not too bad
[03:38:27] <ssi> 1/32 ~ 0.032
[03:38:31] <ssi> 1mm ~ 0.040
[03:38:42] <ssi> how big is 3mm? 3x40 = 120, so about an eight
[03:38:43] <ssi> not bad
[03:38:52] <toastyde2th> there's a secret to decimals
[03:39:09] <toastyde2th> what's good about them is they're sort of a quick engineering check
[03:39:13] <RyanS> I don't get the UK it appears to be a hodgepodge of metric and imperial.....
[03:39:15] <pfred1> nah you need the magic chart http://www.delorie.com/wood/DrillGuide.html
[03:39:25] <toastyde2th> an engineering print with fractions on it will likely have few errors
[03:39:35] <toastyde2th> if any
[03:39:39] <pfred1> I copied that off a steel supplier handout card
[03:40:04] <toastyde2th> a print with uniform tolerances is likely to be more erronious
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[03:40:38] <RyanS> Or is model engineering for old people who can't bring themselves to work in metric regardless of whether it's the UK or Australia?
[03:40:58] <toastyde2th> generally it doesn't matter to a machinist what unit you're working in
[03:41:06] <toastyde2th> it's an engineering concern
[03:41:21] <pfred1> toastyde2th like if you're trying to land a probe on Mars
[03:41:25] <toastyde2th> yep
[03:41:42] <pfred1> and you're using miles but the computer is programmed in kilometers
[03:41:45] <RyanS> i read that machinists don't care
[03:42:07] <pfred1> that is what happened to one of our probes
[03:42:07] <toastyde2th> yep, it's just a number, and nothing is ever dead nuts so you have to deal with error anyway
[03:42:20] <toastyde2th> that .500" endmill is really .501" or something
[03:42:33] <pfred1> well it is going to deflect
[03:42:36] <toastyde2th> so it doesn't matter whether it's mm or inches
[03:42:47] <pfred1> I used to run endmills until they snapped
[03:42:48] <toastyde2th> because it's all just numbers you have to correct and bump around, the unit is meaningless
[03:42:54] <RyanS> Is anyone here from the UK? They use imperial for roads but metric for other things?
[03:42:56] <pfred1> they'd change size before they snapped
[03:43:30] <pfred1> RyanS I live in the USA and we're technically metric but we use Imperial for almost everything
[03:43:54] <RyanS> I thought the US was officially imperial?
[03:43:58] <pfred1> nope
[03:44:03] <pfred1> we are officially metric
[03:44:09] <ssi> well the military is
[03:44:10] <jdh> we are?
[03:44:12] <pfred1> being the primary member of NATO
[03:44:12] <ssi> I wouldn't say the country is
[03:44:32] <pfred1> yes we are officially metric
[03:44:38] <pfred1> but you'd never tell it by being here
[03:44:44] <jdh> officially how so?
[03:44:54] <pfred1> the government uses all metric
[03:44:59] <toastyde2th> yep
[03:45:01] <pfred1> like our bullets
[03:45:21] <RyanS> It's funny when you deal with so-called metric pipe it's all just Imperial written down as metric
[03:45:27] <pfred1> all have metric designations
[03:45:31] <ssi> RyanS: yeah but there's a lot of that the other way 'round too
[03:45:38] <ssi> go to home depot and try to buy 3/4" plywood
[03:45:40] <pfred1> RyanS yeah or a 13mm drive
[03:45:44] <ssi> you get 25/32
[03:45:54] <pfred1> ssi that is because of surfacing
[03:46:06] <ssi> it gets bigger when you surface it?
[03:46:11] <pfred1> ssi if you buy hardwood plywood 3/4 is 3/4
[03:46:12] <ssi> I'm pretty sure they're selling us 20mm plywood
[03:46:31] <pfred1> nah it is a funny thing with plywood grading
[03:46:39] <RyanS> I think we have 20 mm tube fittings and it's not even close
[03:46:47] <pfred1> softwood plywood is sold like draming timber
[03:46:51] <pfred1> framing timber
[03:46:58] <pfred1> like a 2x4 isn't really 2x4
[03:47:14] <toastyde2th> "let's measure it before we put it through the planer"
[03:47:18] <pfred1> they use the presurfacing measurement
[03:47:22] <pfred1> right
[03:47:44] <ssi> same way they measure quarter pounders? ;)
[03:47:53] <pfred1> yeah precooked weight
[03:48:07] <pfred1> same principal
[03:48:31] <pfred1> they even make router bits that can dado for cockeyed plywood
[03:49:54] <RyanS> Why does everyone on youtube seem to go on about 0.0001" "I have a thou runout,that's pretty good"but is that good ?
[03:50:02] <ssi> that's a tenth
[03:50:07] <ssi> and a tenth runout is quite good
[03:50:21] <RyanS> What's a 10th
[03:50:29] <ssi> a ten-thousandth of an inch
[03:50:30] <ssi> 0.0001
[03:50:33] <pfred1> RyanS when I worked in a machine shop we never expected greater than 0.003" accuracy out of a lathe or a mill operation
[03:50:37] <ssi> or a tenth of a thousandth
[03:50:49] <pfred1> RyanS when we needed stuff closer than that we surface ground it
[03:51:24] <ssi> yea I spin all my ballscrew bearing journals in the grinder
[03:51:30] <ssi> journal is the wrong word
[03:51:35] <ssi> but you know what I mean :)
[03:51:40] <pfred1> but a lot of non professioals seem to get really hug up on machine cutting accuracy
[03:51:58] <pfred1> hung up even
[03:52:12] <toastyde2th> jesus christ "runout"
[03:52:15] <pfred1> I guess because they're not making a living out of it I don't know
[03:52:17] <toastyde2th> i love pissing matchies about that
[03:52:23] <toastyde2th> *matches
[03:52:31] <ssi> well it matters for some things
[03:52:35] <ssi> grinder spindles for instance :)
[03:52:41] <pfred1> man we ran machines that were beat to death
[03:52:51] <toastyde2th> yeah, but people don't seem to realize you can't measure runout with a dti
[03:53:00] <pfred1> but if you kept an eye on them you could manage good work
[03:53:07] <Tecan> yay z axis done now to hook it to duino http://i.imgur.com/Yd1Dzf5.jpg
[03:53:09] <toastyde2th> you can measure runout of a surface with a dti, but you can't measure the runout of the bearing itself with a dti
[03:53:23] <ssi> pfred1: I only have one machine that I really feel like is so worn out it's bordering on unusable
[03:53:36] <ssi> and the ways are just shot, and the carriage moves around a lot, unexpectedly
[03:53:54] <ssi> it's a lathe, and if you turn a diameter over 6", youll get a ridiculously uneven surface
[03:54:10] <toastyde2th> haha i love that on bridgeports - "And suddenly the table moved half an inch"
[03:54:33] <ssi> toastyde2th: that sounds more like cutter grabbing the work and pulling it into the backlash
[03:54:41] <toastyde2th> ssi, that's exactly what it is
[03:54:51] <pfred1> yeah climb milling
[03:55:06] <RyanS> what so can't measure the spindle runout or chuck runout with a dti??
[03:55:13] <toastyde2th> ryan, nope.
[03:55:15] <pfred1> when I pocketed clamps we'd climb mill them and it worked
[03:55:21] <ssi> on my lathe I can just feed a cutter toward the chuck on the powerfeed and it'll cut fifteen different diameters with steps :(
[03:55:47] <toastyde2th> ryan: the idea is that you can measure a part's runout no problem - just stick a dti on it, fine
[03:56:20] <toastyde2th> but the spindle's center of rotation is an imaginary line, and that line moves around. it doesn't have anything to do with parts you can see or put a simple measurement tool on
[03:56:38] <toastyde2th> people like to mesure the runout of a spindle taper, and that does matter in some cases (small endmills)
[03:56:39] <RyanS> don't you use a dti to clock in a 4jaw?
[03:56:46] <toastyde2th> yeah, but that's a part.
[03:56:54] <toastyde2th> that's not telling you anything about the spindle.
[03:57:58] <pfred1> toastyde2th I know what you mean I think
[03:58:01] <toastyde2th> old shop had two air bearing lathes from waaaay back in the day. If you measured any visible part of the spindle, you'd get crazy runout. Cut a test bar and look at it, and it was under a millionth of an inch. and that wasn't bearing accuracy, that was just the concentricity of the part after being cut
[03:59:16] <pfred1> if you need stuff so accurate you have to question the design to begin with often
[03:59:34] <pfred1> the Germans had great guns until they took them to Russia
[03:59:40] <pfred1> then they weren't so great
[03:59:45] <toastyde2th> it was neat because you could put a sharpie clocking mark on the part and set the measurement oscilloscope to trigger on the massive spike
[04:00:02] <RyanS> I guess there's nothing I can do to improve run out of lathe spindle, bu how do I tell if mythree draw a scroll chuck is shit?
[04:00:03] <toastyde2th> because a sharpie line is like 30-40 millionths of an inch high
[04:00:23] <RyanS> jaw
[04:00:27] <pfred1> I thought you could recut scroll chucks
[04:00:38] <toastyde2th> cut yourself a few diameters of pins
[04:00:43] <toastyde2th> 1", 2", etc
[04:00:48] <toastyde2th> close the 3 jaw on the pins
[04:00:50] <toastyde2th> measure the runout.
[04:01:19] <ssi> yea 3 jaws are mostly about how repeatable the concentricity is
[04:01:22] <toastyde2th> a good 3 jaw will usually be less than .005" runout, and a new chuck will do around .001" (in my experience)
[04:01:32] <toastyde2th> BUT.
[04:01:33] <ssi> you want to be able to cut something, remove it, put it back in, close it, and have it be pretty true
[04:01:39] <ssi> mine is the opposite of that
[04:01:42] <ssi> so I use mostly 4jaw :)
[04:01:47] <toastyde2th> you can use ANY beat-ass three jaw if you make yourself a set of soft jaws
[04:01:57] <toastyde2th> and then your beat up 3 jaw will be more accurate than a 4 jaw.
[04:02:15] <ssi> on my hardinge I use a lot of machinable step collets
[04:02:16] <toastyde2th> downside is that you have to cut the jaws every time you make a part
[04:02:20] <ssi> and they're VERY accurate
[04:02:27] <toastyde2th> ya, collets are baller
[04:02:36] <ssi> I have a part that I run that's 2" raw stock, and I finish it to 1.985"
[04:02:38] <toastyde2th> i always use collets if i can
[04:02:52] <RyanS> that's too much hassle for the home
[04:02:53] <ssi> and I have a step collet that's got a 1/4" deep 2" bore, and 1/2" deep 1.985" inside that
[04:02:55] <toastyde2th> most of our lathes had 16C collets rather than 6C
[04:03:00] <toastyde2th> and it was brilliant
[04:03:04] <pfred1> I need to get a set of 5C collets
[04:03:20] <ssi> so I can pop raw stock in, finish most of the part, flip it over in the deeper section, and finish the other end
[04:03:24] <ssi> it's pretty awesome
[04:03:28] <toastyde2th> i think 16C holds like 2.5" max
[04:03:28] <toastyde2th> thru spindle
[04:03:29] <ssi> especially with the turret and the air closer :D
[04:03:33] <pfred1> I picked up a collet holder but I have only one collet for it
[04:03:34] <ssi> 16C is 1.625"
[04:03:39] <ssi> 5C is 1.0625"
[04:03:42] <toastyde2th> hm
[04:03:55] <ssi> my HNC is the 5C one, but the CHNC is 16C
[04:03:59] <ssi> I wish I had the bigger spindle
[04:04:02] <ssi> but the collets cost more
[04:04:10] <toastyde2th> is there another size after that
[04:04:15] <toastyde2th> I swear I had bigger collets
[04:04:16] <ssi> not that I know of
[04:04:18] <pfred1> ssi lots say the ywish they had a bigger spindle
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[04:04:28] <ssi> yeah everyone wants more
[04:04:29] <Xfriend> how do fix a nena 23?
[04:04:29] <ssi> heheh
[04:04:42] <pfred1> Xfriend a stepper motor?
[04:04:42] <Xfriend> pfred1: Hi...!!
[04:04:43] <ReadErro-> lol wat
[04:04:49] <Xfriend> yes
[04:04:58] <pfred1> you can't fix stepper motors
[04:05:02] <ReadErro-> find trash
[04:05:04] <ReadErro-> insert motor
[04:05:08] <pfred1> as soon as you take one apart it is shot
[04:05:27] <pfred1> they use special factory magic to assemble stepepr motors
[04:05:40] <ssi> when you open it all the torque leaks out
[04:05:55] <pfred1> even if you can get it back together i hear they put out like a tenth the power they're supposed to
[04:06:01] <ssi> exactly
[04:06:04] <ssi> cause the torque leaked out
[04:06:34] <RyanS> Someone uses a mt3 er32 collet chuck through the lathe spindle with a drawbar for milling. is that going to screw up bearings?
[04:06:34] <Xfriend> I made a hole on the shaft
[04:06:39] <pfred1> yeah a messed up stepper motor is a paper weight
[04:07:01] <toastyde2th> RyanS, also, soft jaws really aren't that big a deal for the home shop, people just play it up like it's really hard
[04:07:23] <toastyde2th> what a lot of people do is mill a long bar with whatever pattern the lathe takes and just chop it up
[04:07:48] <toastyde2th> most small chucks don't take very wide jaws so you get a lot of jaws (and a lot of life per jaw) out of a small bar
[04:07:52] <Xfriend> pfred1: can you send me or tell me the BOM of the stepper motor you have in intru.!
[04:07:53] <toastyde2th> (aluminum, obv)
[04:08:30] <toastyde2th> others don't even do that and just drill a hole through aluminum and bolt it without any other mounting features
[04:08:41] <toastyde2th> so you'll get these weird chunks of alu bolted to a chuck
[04:08:48] <RyanS> How are you supposed to attach them to the hard jaws?
[04:08:58] <toastyde2th> are your jaws one-part or two part
[04:10:29] <RyanS> umm t looks like http://www.machineryhouse.com.au/C200 but crapper
[04:10:29] <ssi> I want to get a nice new 3 jaw with set-tru and 2 piece jaws
[04:10:52] <toastyde2th> k those are single piece/one part jaws
[04:10:58] <ssi> i have a beat up six jaw bison with set tru but I only have three jaws for it
[04:11:03] <toastyde2th> what you do with those is make a thing that slips over the jaw
[04:11:24] <pfred1> one scummy thing we did at the machine shop we worked at is we'd buy lathe chucks from harbor freight and rebuild them and sell them like we made them
[04:11:27] <toastyde2th> cut a blind slot in a chunk of metal that's an interference fit and slip them over
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[04:11:39] <ssi> lol
[04:11:48] <toastyde2th> tap them on with a hammer
[04:11:58] <pfred1> but only the smaller ones the bigger ones we'd actually make
[04:12:15] <toastyde2th> then, to cut them, clamp an aluminum pin in the uncut jaws, and machine your holding diameter
[04:12:22] <toastyde2th> open the jaw, throw your part in, and go
[04:13:09] <toastyde2th> no part distortion (you can use a ton of force with thin-wall parts), very accurate, and if you put a clocking mark on the jaws and part, you can usually get .0002-.0003" repeatability
[04:13:21] <pfred1> ssi that was a different department than I worked in that did that but I saw it going on
[04:13:44] <ssi> not good
[04:14:12] <pfred1> ssi well to be fair they would get all torn down the bearings would be replaced and they'd be machined if they were out and all tested and everything
[04:14:27] <ssi> well they were likely better than harbor freight chucks afterward i guess
[04:14:27] <pfred1> they did it with the little live spindles too
[04:14:49] <pfred1> but we made huge live spindles
[04:14:57] <pfred1> like for the paper industry
[04:15:03] <RyanS> hmm, ok. If I use a milling attachment on the lathe I wonder if it's any good just to clamp endmills in the 3jaw?
[04:15:13] <pfred1> things were rated to 300 tons or something stupid
[04:16:43] <pfred1> RyanS sometimes I juse end mills in my drill chuck on my mill depends on the work I'm doing if I bother to change out to the collets or not
[04:17:16] <pfred1> it is a pain to put my collet holder into the spindle
[04:17:21] <RyanS> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wESyli48YqA
[04:17:22] <Tecan> (wESyli48YqA) "Milling steel on a small metal lathe" by "xynudu ." is "Howto" - Length: 0:04:33
[04:17:35] <ssi> I don't like using endmills in a drill chuck
[04:17:37] <RyanS> He uses a drawbar
[04:17:48] <ssi> I'll do it occasionally for quick and dirty stuff, but it's not so good
[04:18:00] <pfred1> ssi I'm not wild about it either but if I'm just cutting a little piece of plastic or something
[04:18:16] <ssi> yeea
[04:18:17] <pfred1> good enough
[04:18:18] <toastyde2th> RyanS, it's dangerous to clamp a small endmill in a 3 jaw
[04:18:40] <RyanS> They can come out easily?
[04:18:47] <toastyde2th> hard jaws have shitty holding force on other hard things (endmills), and they have a lot of runout, which risks a break
[04:19:14] <pfred1> I will say this for those imported end mills they do shatter like glass
[04:19:16] <toastyde2th> if you use a .500" endmill, and have .005" of runout (which is pretty good for a used 3 jaw) that's 1% of the diameter
[04:19:57] <ssi> so do US made carbide ones :0
[04:20:05] <toastyde2th> haha heyoooo
[04:20:18] <pfred1> I suppose but better HSS end mills seem tougher to me
[04:20:26] <toastyde2th> so any time you do feed calculations, that .005 is going to ADD to one tooth, and subtract from the other side
[04:20:29] <ssi> yeah I prefer us made HSS endmills
[04:20:31] <ssi> they work great
[04:20:33] <toastyde2th> HSS is more shock resistant
[04:20:40] <ssi> biggest problem I ever have with them is gumming them up with 6061
[04:20:52] <ssi> and then I can knock it out of the teeth, but it's a hassle
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[04:21:54] <RyanS> what about clamping a custom straight shank endmill holder and c clamp in thre jaw
[04:22:04] <toastyde2th> endmill holders also suck, i'd use a collet.
[04:22:17] <toastyde2th> endmill holders are GREAT for bigass endmills and roughing endmills
[04:22:28] <toastyde2th> anything under 1" i would suggest not using them
[04:22:47] <toastyde2th> 3/4" roughing works pretty good on a holder if you're worried about pullout
[04:23:04] <ssi> pullout is obnoxious
[04:23:09] <ssi> I've ruined a lot of parts with pullout :(
[04:23:19] <toastyde2th> i'd get something like a ER32 or ER16 holder for your lathe
[04:23:25] <pfred1> pulling out? doesn't sound manly to me!
[04:23:39] <ssi> pfred1: you prefer having lots of unexpected children?!
[04:23:48] <RyanS> ok, I can just make a drawbar for my mt3 er32 chuck
[04:23:55] <pfred1> I say we leave it in there and get the job done!
[04:24:05] <ssi> that gets expensive
[04:24:08] <toastyde2th> yeah, ER32 is the right tool for the job, it's made to hold endmills.
[04:24:18] <RyanS> You prefer plunge milling?
[04:24:21] <ssi> what's the max size on er32?
[04:24:21] <pfred1> it was a Carlon skit about Vietnam
[04:24:23] <ssi> 20mm?
[04:24:33] <toastyde2th> plunge milling is a good roughing strategy on smaller machines
[04:24:33] <RyanS> or boring
[04:24:33] <ssi> I think ER16 is 10mm
[04:24:48] <RyanS> Sorry I was making innuendo
[04:24:51] <toastyde2th> oh
[04:24:57] <toastyde2th> haha, sorry
[04:25:23] <toastyde2th> ssi, not sure what the max is
[04:25:33] <pfred1> I had to make a drawbar for my mill
[04:25:51] <pfred1> I cut the threads off of a bolt and welded them to a rod and welded a nut on top
[04:26:13] <toastyde2th> a lot of er holders have a coolant hole
[04:26:18] <RyanS> I can't remember where I saw this, he makes a drawbar and a sleeve that centres the bar in the middle of the pulley
[04:26:20] <toastyde2th> so in theory a drawbar should be easy to make
[04:26:24] <RyanS> With a washer
[04:26:29] <toastyde2th> put a bolt through the coolant hole and attach a bar to it
[04:26:36] <pfred1> but I was real careful when I welded everything together you see so it was all lined up right
[04:27:15] <RyanS> Doesn't welding fuck up threads ?
[04:27:21] <RyanS> Stick welding anyway
[04:27:52] <pfred1> I only welded it on one end
[04:27:56] <pfred1> and i TIGed it anyways
[04:28:15] <toastyde2th> yeah, i was gonna say nearly everything in machining is tig
[04:28:32] <pfred1> I had my doubts when I made it but it's held up for close to 20 years now so I guess its OK
[04:28:32] <Xfriend> any who have a cnc machine assembly with v-slot ?
[04:29:34] <RyanS> There are so many people sticking endmills in a chuck .. Someone is going to end up with shrapnel in their face
[04:29:39] <pfred1> the drawbar that mill came with didn't even fit I had to put a brass sleeve on the top of it to take up the slack
[04:30:33] <toastyde2th> RyanS, lots of people run their shizz really slow?
[04:30:43] <pfred1> I mean it isn't even close it is almost an inch too long
[04:30:48] <toastyde2th> i have noticed the hobby trend is to run the endmill too quickly, but feed it too slowly
[04:31:01] <toastyde2th> that means they dull the shit out of their tools in short order, but nothing ever snaps
[04:31:26] <pfred1> toastyde2th yeah if you don't have your surface speed right you're not machining
[04:32:42] <RyanS> How on earth do you feed a mill at consistent rate with out power feed.
[04:32:54] <toastyde2th> you don't, you just overcompensate by running the machine slower
[04:33:09] <toastyde2th> you can run a tool SLOWER than it's recommended speed without much of an ill effect
[04:33:21] <toastyde2th> that way not much happens when the feed varies
[04:33:41] <toastyde2th> most endmills are quite tolerant of overfeeding by a bit, but dull rapidly with underfeeding.
[04:34:01] <toastyde2th> it's also hard to snap an endmill from overfeed if you're cranking it by hand
[04:35:07] <toastyde2th> small endmills, yeah, snap city
[04:35:19] <toastyde2th> anything over 3/8ths, probably not.
[04:36:13] <toastyde2th> a 3/4" endmill will take .015 of feed in most materials without a huge problem - even steel. it just becomes a power issue.
[04:36:44] <RyanS> toasy are you a professional machinist. but cnc too?
[04:36:48] <toastyde2th> i was
[04:36:54] <toastyde2th> now i'm back in school
[04:37:16] <toastyde2th> i'd call myself a junior machinist, not an old hand
[04:37:35] <RyanS> ok
[04:37:52] <toastyde2th> both cnc and manual, mills and lathes. a little grinding, no edm.
[04:37:59] <CaptHindsight> <--- more of a micro-machinist
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[04:39:29] <toastyde2th> one of our machines was a big manual horizontal mill, and I always had trouble getting my co-workers to run it properly
[04:40:08] <toastyde2th> it ran .5" and 1" wide, 10" and 12" diameter cutters
[04:40:17] <toastyde2th> 20 or 40 teeth per cutter
[04:40:56] <toastyde2th> and so the proper way to run it was some insane feed rate - you could send it nearly a half inch per rotation
[04:41:18] <RyanS> Not sure why I'm interested in this stuff.... I literally can't use machine tools due to disability but it just seems logical how to operate them, (i have a dude employed to help me out with building shit). I'm thinking of getting a small CNC Mill so I can 'drive' it, seems very expensive for what you get with a hobby sized machine
[04:42:10] <toastyde2th> ya, hobby sized machines are the same price as like, used cncs in working order from the 80s
[04:42:16] <toastyde2th> that are much, much larger
[04:42:27] <toastyde2th> but that's the rub - most people can't fit a bigass vmc in their garage
[04:42:40] <roycroft> not to mention not many have 3 phase power
[04:42:59] <roycroft> and decent 3 phase converters are expensive
[04:43:19] <toastyde2th> older machines aren't as touchy about power cleanliness
[04:44:10] <toastyde2th> if you were gonna run a newer machine, yeah, no dice, but something old shouldn't have a problem
[04:44:22] <roycroft> space is my bigger concern, personally
[04:44:25] <toastyde2th> we had an OKK from the 60s they retrofitted, and it survived brownouts
[04:44:32] <toastyde2th> "derp derp derp still cuttin'"
[04:45:45] <RyanS> I don't know how important 'feel' is in manual machining, but if I know the theory I can explain "turn that handwheel" but I don't know if I could hear or see if they are doing that wrong if I'm not turning the knob
[04:45:54] <toastyde2th> super important
[04:45:58] <roycroft> indeed
[04:46:05] <toastyde2th> even cnc is about feel
[04:46:19] <roycroft> but if you can't feel it yourself, at least you can smell it
[04:46:23] <roycroft> and that is somewhat telling
[04:46:26] <toastyde2th> (brb)
[04:46:50] <RyanS> I'm wondering if you get visual and sound cues tho?
[04:47:00] <toastyde2th> i always argue that cnc is very very close to manual machining - 70% of the same tasks exist
[04:47:08] <roycroft> yes, but really nothing like the feel of cutting
[04:47:47] <toastyde2th> putting a vice on the table, making sure it's clean, understanding how hard to hit it
[04:48:03] <RyanS> If you do it by CNC you have no idea about feel however? I'm talking about physically
[04:48:29] <RyanS> Because visually I can learn that myself and see if it looks like the cutting is going ok
[04:48:40] <roycroft> if you get a mill drill you'll be able to feel the vibration of the machine
[04:48:54] <toastyde2th> yeah, it's mostly sound + vibration
[04:49:00] <toastyde2th> a machine can sound like shit but the vibration is fine
[04:49:05] <toastyde2th> or it will sound FINE but you know the mill's about to break
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[04:49:21] <toastyde2th> most of the feel is in the setup
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[04:49:47] <toastyde2th> it takes a LOT of practice to know when a surface is clean
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[04:50:21] <toastyde2th> or when a part just isn't sitting quite right in the vice
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[04:50:36] <RyanS> so if I heard a vibration sound or whatever that the person could easily tell me whether they can feel vibration?
[04:50:49] <toastyde2th> they will feel vibration, it's what kind of vibration
[04:51:01] <toastyde2th> a good cut has a huge amount of vibration to it
[04:51:23] <toastyde2th> very smooth, bassy vibration
[04:51:48] <RyanS> Okay but if you do it in CNC you have nothing else except visual and audio cues?
[04:51:59] <toastyde2th> no?
[04:52:04] <toastyde2th> i always put my hand on the enclosure
[04:52:53] <toastyde2th> the only way to figure out if it will work for you, unfortuantely, is to try it
[04:53:09] <toastyde2th> because i use a huge amount of physical senses when i set a machine up and very little/almost no visual information
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[04:53:30] <toastyde2th> but that's just because it's how i do it - you might be completely successful and just rely on different cues
[04:54:27] <toastyde2th> for instance, whoever does your setup will have to become a legit setup person - a machinist in their own right
[04:54:42] <toastyde2th> you can become an excellent programmer and never touch the setup
[04:55:02] <RyanS> I guess I could prop myself against the machine stand (my wheelchair is not terribly rigid) I can tell what sort of vibration....
[04:55:23] <toastyde2th> it comes through the floor too
[04:56:34] <toastyde2th> but i'd say 45% of the job is setup, 45% is programming, and 10% is running the dumb thing
[04:56:52] <toastyde2th> and "running the dumb thing" becomes more involved the harder the part is to make
[04:57:36] <RyanS> yeh, I went to a industrial show and sat next to a Mazak (I think it was an i-300) and because the place had a car park underneath you could feel the whole vibrating
[04:57:56] <RyanS> Even the laser cutters were shaking all over the place
[04:58:19] <toastyde2th> haha yeah, i loved doing hard cuts when i was at votech
[04:58:26] <toastyde2th> because they had their cnc gear in this fancy glass room
[04:58:30] <toastyde2th> as showpieces
[04:58:37] <toastyde2th> and nobody ever really loaded them down
[04:58:59] <toastyde2th> you could make classes come out of their rooms with some of the facemills they had
[04:59:14] <toastyde2th> huge roar
[04:59:45] <RyanS> on a factory floor with a really thick slab I guess the vibration would be dampened a fair bit
[04:59:52] <toastyde2th> nah, cement sends it forever
[05:00:06] <RyanS> Rather than on top of a car park?
[05:00:22] <toastyde2th> oh, no, not saying it was as loud as a car park
[05:00:58] <toastyde2th> just that it carried the sound all over the building, so that in the front office when our biggest machines were doing roughing the walls and floor of the room would sing a little
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[05:01:50] <toastyde2th> (brb)
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[05:11:33] <RyanS> What sort of machine/lathe/mill do you have at home?
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[05:38:49] <CaptHindsight> http://www.pmdx.com/k9/K9-first-photo.JPG BBB with K9 breakout board
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[05:43:37] <ssi> saw that
[05:43:40] <ssi> I want one
[05:44:22] <CaptHindsight> trying to find any schematics, don't see any servo support yet
[05:44:32] <ssi> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BL-CmZjCAAAUfGu.jpg:large
[05:44:34] <ssi> that's what I'm working on
[05:45:35] <CaptHindsight> can't see the part number
[05:45:50] <ssi> http://ebrombaugh.studionebula.com/embedded/bcc/index.html
[05:46:29] <CaptHindsight> Spartan 3A FPGA with 200k gates
[05:47:09] <ssi> yep
[05:47:17] <CaptHindsight> what real time version are they using for the BBB?
[05:47:27] <CaptHindsight> rt-preempt, xenomai?
[05:47:30] <ssi> there's a newly released xenomai 3.8
[05:47:32] <ssi> but I haven't tried it yet
[05:48:17] <CaptHindsight> looks like ARM support is ahead of x86
[05:48:45] <CaptHindsight> support for RTAI is getting pushed to 3.8
[05:49:18] <CaptHindsight> and we're still battling with RT-Preempt for 3.8 for non debian kernels
[05:50:29] <CaptHindsight> ssi: are your IO pin-outs compatible with anything by Mesa?
[05:50:36] <ssi> not yet, but that's my goal
[05:50:38] <ssi> one of my goals anyway
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[05:51:13] <CaptHindsight> pcw was working on an FPGA board for the cubieboard
[05:52:03] <CaptHindsight> ssi: whats the ultimate plan for your FPGA board?
[05:52:24] <ssi> well right now I'm using it as a testbed for hardware bitcoin mining
[05:52:40] <ssi> but I also want to find a way to make hm2 drivers for it and put a cut down 5i25 firmware in it
[05:52:46] <ssi> and use the 28 pin header as a superport for a 7i77
[05:52:46] <CaptHindsight> ssi: talk to Finboy
[05:52:58] <ssi> I don't know finboy
[05:53:21] <CaptHindsight> he's usually in here ~12 hrs from now
[05:53:40] <ssi> I'm making progress: http://www.prototechnical.com/~imcmahon/goodhash.png
[05:54:12] <CaptHindsight> we looked at fitting an entire hash in one cycle in one fpga
[05:54:27] <ssi> it's doable
[05:54:32] <CaptHindsight> it fits but an ASIC is abetter solution
[05:54:35] <ssi> I'm discussing with my friend on it right now
[05:54:40] <ssi> he's actually ni the process of taping out an asic
[05:54:43] <ssi> which is why we're doing this
[05:54:50] <ssi> I'm doing this exercise to get the host-side protocols worked out
[05:54:54] <ssi> gonna use BBB as a controller
[05:55:02] <ssi> plus it's a fun learning exercise
[05:55:18] <ssi> but in the short term he's got an fpga design that'll put three fully unrolled pipes in an artix 200T
[05:55:18] <CaptHindsight> but it seems like 1-2 years ago was the time to get into it
[05:55:23] <ssi> yeah you're right about that
[05:55:25] <ssi> c'est la vie
[05:56:18] <CaptHindsight> I was considering the BBBish design with 1GB DDR3 and an FPGA on the same board
[05:56:47] <ssi> easier just to make an fpga cape
[05:56:53] <CaptHindsight> pass the files around China, hijinks ensue
[05:57:28] <CaptHindsight> just got my BBB's in
[05:57:45] <CaptHindsight> just concerned about the 512MB of ram
[05:57:49] <ssi> I've got two blacks and a white
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[05:58:17] <CaptHindsight> playing with the zedboards as well now
[06:01:49] <CaptHindsight> the ZYNQ isn't popular in China yet
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[06:02:27] <CaptHindsight> same for the AM335x
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[06:07:33] <CaptHindsight> XC3S200AVQ100 are ~$6
[06:08:30] <ssi> I paid more than that from digikey
[06:08:33] <ssi> like $11 or $12 I think
[06:08:38] <ssi> maybe $6 in qty
[06:08:47] <CaptHindsight> China pricing
[06:08:57] <ssi> right k
[06:09:12] <CaptHindsight> usually out the backdoor
[06:10:19] <CaptHindsight> so the BOM for that board could be $12 assembled
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[06:15:54] <Tecan> http://static.electro-tech-online.com/imgcache/9838-_penny_heatsink.jpg
[06:16:36] <CaptHindsight> Linuxcnc is only up to 3.5.7 kernels and SSE is broken as well
[06:17:05] <CaptHindsight> ssi: what kernel are you currently using with the BBB and Linuxcnc?
[06:17:24] <ssi> 3.8.13, but I'm not really actively doing linuxcnc stuff
[06:17:30] <ssi> I haven't tried michael's xenomai build yet
[06:18:10] <CaptHindsight> so you're not using any working kernel yet
[06:18:21] <ssi> define "working"?
[06:18:45] <CaptHindsight> a kernel that works with Linuxcnc
[06:18:57] <CaptHindsight> with real time support
[06:19:09] <ssi> no, I don't have that personally
[06:19:17] <ssi> but I think michael does
[06:19:34] <CaptHindsight> have a link to try?
[06:20:07] <ssi> not offhand
[06:20:10] <ssi> I know he posted it to the dev list
[06:20:47] <pfred1> LinuxCNC works with 2 realtime kernels now doesn't it?
[06:20:57] <pfred1> RTAI and what is the name of the other thing xenomai?
[06:21:02] <CaptHindsight> on x86 or ARM?
[06:21:20] <CaptHindsight> RT-PREEMPT, Xenomai and RTAI
[06:21:26] <pfred1> I was close
[06:21:33] <pfred1> I knew it started with an X
[06:21:41] * pfred1 uses RTAI
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[06:22:39] <pfred1> beyond the name I don't know anything about Xenomai
[06:23:51] <CaptHindsight> the most recent real time kernel that works with Linuxcnc is v2.6
[06:23:57] <pfred1> I have patches some kernels to run RTAI though
[06:24:08] <pfred1> nah RTAI works on 3.8 now
[06:24:13] <pfred1> kind of
[06:24:53] <pfred1> but I think I built it against 2.6.38?
[06:24:58] <pfred1> which was new enough for me
[06:25:06] <CaptHindsight> ah ok
[06:25:23] <pfred1> I have to be honest the 3.X linux kernels kind of scare me a little
[06:25:27] <pfred1> I've never run one
[06:25:46] <pfred1> although I hear they just changed the major number because of the 25th anniversary
[06:25:58] <pfred1> not because of any major code change
[06:26:46] <pfred1> still to me at least changing the major number seems like a big step so I just haven't taken it yet
[06:28:18] <pfred1> I've been running 2.X Linux kernels since forever
[06:29:03] <pfred1> I can't be sure today but I think the first Linux kernel I ever ran was like 2.0.11 or something
[06:29:38] <pfred1> I can remember by the time 2.0.28 came out I felt like an old hand at Linux
[06:29:54] <pfred1> even though back then i guess I really wasn't
[06:30:00] <CaptHindsight> we are trying to clean up the debianization of Linuxcnc and kernels
[06:30:16] <pfred1> what does that mean?
[06:30:31] <pfred1> one thing i hate about Debian is them stripping out the binary globs
[06:30:37] <pfred1> it is such a pain
[06:30:57] <CaptHindsight> so Linuxcnc can play with kernels from kernel.org git
[06:30:58] <pfred1> I just go get a generic kernel off of kernel.org build that run it and toss the stuff Debian ships
[06:31:27] <CaptHindsight> RTAI just posted a 3.8 patch
[06:31:36] <pfred1> yeah I know I'm on their mailing list
[06:32:07] <pfred1> Paulo helped me out on my last build
[06:32:29] <CaptHindsight> and were battling with page faults with Linuxcnc and RT-preempt kernel passed 3.0
[06:32:48] <pfred1> something about me running multicore i needed to select a kernel option in order for some symbols to be correct
[06:32:55] <CaptHindsight> seems debian has several kernel patches for the page fault problems
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[06:33:19] <pfred1> well Debian is far and away the best Linux distro going today
[06:33:29] <pfred1> nothing else even comes close
[06:33:34] <ReadErro-> mint is nice
[06:33:37] <pfred1> pfft
[06:33:40] <pfred1> mint is trash
[06:33:51] <pfred1> the QA there is no comparison
[06:34:10] <pfred1> I have a laptop running mint it sucks
[06:34:14] <ReadErro-> for out of the box and "just works", it just works
[06:34:20] <pfred1> but I'm too lazy to install Debian on it
[06:35:00] <pfred1> I've had Mint freeze up and need to be cold reset
[06:36:01] <pfred1> I ruined the uptime on this box because i just hooked another monitor to it the other day
[06:36:16] <pfred1> but my box upstairs last time I checked it was at 90 days
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[06:36:40] <CaptHindsight> http://bb-lcnc.blogspot.com/ fresh off the ML
[06:36:42] <pfred1> I lose power a lot so getting really good uptime is challenging
[06:36:58] <CaptHindsight> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AK_OYoNOBDQ&feature=youtu.be
[06:36:59] <Tecan> (AK_OYoNOBDQ) "BeagleBone Black + BeBoPr + LinuxCNC = machinekit" by "Charles Steinkuehler" is "Tech" - Length: 0:12:02
[06:37:19] <pfred1> what kind of latency can the BB do?
[06:37:23] <CaptHindsight> BeagleBone White and a 3.2 kernel
[06:38:22] <CaptHindsight> the AM335x has two embedded microcontrollers to hand real time interrupts
[06:39:22] <pfred1> I wish this box could maintain these numbers http://i.imgur.com/oPOsH0N.png
[06:39:48] <pfred1> not bad for a $5 PC though
[06:40:42] <pfred1> well $12 with a keyboard, mouse and monitor
[06:41:47] <pfred1> that is what I love about PCs they're dirt cheap
[06:43:23] <CaptHindsight> I've been asking about BBB and cubieboard latency tests but I haven't seen any yet
[06:45:05] <CaptHindsight> http://circuitco.com/support/index.php?title=BeBoPr_Cape
[06:46:34] <CaptHindsight> only stepper support :( good for glue gun printers
[06:46:56] <CaptHindsight> up to 62.5 kHz steprate
[06:47:39] <pfred1> CaptHindsight stepper motors are only good for 3D printers?
[06:48:15] <CaptHindsight> are you asking me or telling me :)
[06:48:37] <pfred1> CaptHindsight I'm asking you to clairfy your previous statement
[06:48:56] <CaptHindsight> are you serious?
[06:49:09] <pfred1> CaptHindsight I'm trying to determine if you're serious
[06:50:45] <CaptHindsight> ah only a stepper interface. no drivers on the board
[06:52:50] <CaptHindsight> interesting am3359's are ~$20
[06:54:51] <archivist> that cape only has a bianry and no source
[06:55:45] <CaptHindsight> http://circuitco.com/support/index.php?title=BeBoPr_Cape#Documentations
[06:56:01] <CaptHindsight> on an open systems reference manual
[06:56:39] <CaptHindsight> not a big problem to make a board like that anyway
[06:57:23] <CaptHindsight> LCC version of the am3359 is $13
[06:59:57] <CaptHindsight> am3359 + FPGA + 1GB DDR3 + flash + glue +passives ~$40
[07:03:21] <CaptHindsight> it could be a popular board for cheap in China if it could use the Allwinner A31 or Mediatek quad core
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[07:04:42] <CaptHindsight> $30 BOM
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[07:08:46] <DJ9DJ> moin
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[07:26:15] <BlackSonOfAfrica> Hello LinuxCNC, i want to buy a chinese laser cutter. any advice?
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[07:34:38] <Loetmichel> mornin'
[07:37:26] <CaptHindsight> BlackSonOfAfrica: that question must come up 10 times a day
[07:39:05] <archivist> since when
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[07:40:07] <archivist> proof that the question is not that common http://emclog.archivist.info/
[07:40:50] <archivist> there are a few laser related questions a month
[07:41:03] <CaptHindsight> define few!
[07:42:09] <archivist> your nick is new in here, I can trawl my logs
[07:42:33] <CaptHindsight> my other nick is busy right now
[07:43:15] <CaptHindsight> BlackSonOfAfrica: depends on your budget, working area and wattage
[07:44:15] <CaptHindsight> I haven't heard of any bad ones, just occasional problems with QC (broken tubes from shipment and pinched wires))
[07:45:32] <ssi> I know someone who bought a chinese machine and ended up putting a us made tube in it
[07:45:40] <ssi> because the chinese one was practically unusable
[07:45:44] <CaptHindsight> ask Jymmm, he's been happy with his
[07:47:36] <CaptHindsight> http://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/laser-engraving might be another option
[07:48:11] <archivist> there are 54 laser related lines in my log in the last month, some obviously relate to the same query so the real count is much lower
[07:48:43] <CaptHindsight> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vytec-Laser-Cutter-240-Watts-/190845851641?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c6f4c97f9
[07:49:06] <CaptHindsight> I was tempted to get this one ^^
[07:50:21] <CaptHindsight> 10 times a day, 54 times a month, it's a figure of speech in the US
[07:56:15] <CaptHindsight> every CNC machine vendor at Amerimold 2013 makes their machines in China, but the all qualified their response with "but it's to our specs"
[07:58:14] <CaptHindsight> even AgieCharmilles http://www.us.gfac.com/products/index.cfm
[08:02:55] <RyanS> Is there any reason to use a dead centre in a tail stock when live centres have less friction?
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[08:14:43] <archivist_herron> price and accuracy
[08:15:30] <archivist_herron> there is no play on a fixed as long as adjusted correctly
[08:16:24] <archivist_herron> yes it wears out and becomes loose so the user needs to know what he is doing
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[08:46:31] <pfred1> can't dead centers be shaped half cut out too?
[08:46:45] <pfred1> so you can face off the end of the piece
[08:55:51] <archivist_herron> yup and you can make specials like internal ones
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[10:44:16] <mrsun> isnt that called a half center? :)
[10:44:19] <mrsun> what he is talking about :P
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[11:30:39] <pimperle> ac ja on
[11:30:46] <pimperle> sry
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[15:08:55] <willburrrr2003> Good Morning Everyone :)
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[15:09:09] <IchGuckLive> hi all B)
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[15:10:13] <willburrrr2003> After finally getting my classicladder to communicate Modbus RTU to my external PLC lastnight, I had to come to work and print out all the addressing that I will need to access in the External PLC. IDEC was nice enough to give all the data in a wonderful spreadsheet
[15:11:09] <willburrrr2003> The plan this weekend is to get spindle indes pulse, and spindle encoder pulse working
[15:11:35] <willburrrr2003> that was supposed to read Index pulse :p
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[16:44:29] <andypugh> This is mad, I am haunting eBay looking for exactly the right oak sideboard to make a lathe stand...
[16:45:04] <cradek> andypugh: how about an old hideaway sewing machine? it'd have nice drawers and everything.
[16:45:16] <andypugh> It needs to be a fair size.
[16:45:25] <cradek> ah yeah those are tiny.
[16:45:51] <cradek> hmm, maybe I oughta get one of those for my watch lathe
[16:46:09] <andypugh> Mine is an overgrown watch-lathe
[16:46:31] <andypugh> I need something a bit like this: http://www.lathes.co.uk/rivett/img14.gif
[16:47:44] <cradek> wednesday night I dragged mine out and fixed a damaged balance pivot (was 16, ended up about 14.5)
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[16:47:56] <andypugh> I took the saddle feed clutch apart (for a look) yesterday. It's exquisite but contains some tiny little parts that are bound to wear out. Maybe in the next 200 years.
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[16:49:10] <cradek> would be nice, but evil, to retrofit my 1857 english fusee with incabloc settings... :-)
[16:50:04] <andypugh> This style of base would be easier: http://www.lathes.co.uk/rivett/img16.gif but not nearly so retro.
[16:50:10] <cradek> I don't know if they ever made them that big. I don't think I've ever seen them in a big pocket watch.
[16:50:41] <cradek> the shield around the back and sides is a nice idea
[16:50:48] <archivist> that is a naughty idea
[16:50:49] <andypugh> Just make our own. Start with a ruby mine.
[16:51:10] <cradek> archivist: I know I know. but still.
[16:51:31] <archivist> get george daniels book, shows how to make jewels
[16:51:38] <cradek> oh I have it
[16:51:51] <andypugh> archivist: Don't suppose you have any spare triple-belt pulleys lying about?
[16:51:58] <archivist> nope
[16:52:57] <archivist> fitting jewels is a delicate job :)
[16:53:14] <andypugh> My sister does it all the time.
[16:54:06] <andypugh> I like to caption this "cute welder" https://picasaweb.google.com/doltonsjewellers/Workshop?noredirect=1#5032587453469365410
[16:56:00] <archivist> I was talking watch pivot jewels :)
[16:58:46] <andypugh> Right, off to pick up the changewheels for the Rivett that I decided I didn't need (still don't) but then decided shouldn't be separated from their lathe.
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[16:59:20] <IchGuckLive> h all B)
[16:59:37] <cradek> archivist: I have trouble getting them set straight and at the right depth so the oil bubble stays where I want it
[17:00:02] <archivist> dont you have a jewel press?
[17:00:24] <Jymmm> sledge hammer
[17:01:16] <archivist> or a staking tool and accessories
[17:02:02] <ktchk> IchGuckLive: Hi I read your button set G54, nice. but is there a way to use video to look at a cross hair and set G54?
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[17:06:48] <IchGuckLive> ktchk: you can do what ever you want
[17:07:01] <IchGuckLive> just use PY PIL
[17:07:10] <IchGuckLive> to find your hair
[17:07:35] <IchGuckLive> and then set the coordinates
[17:08:20] <ktchk> anyone did it before?
[17:09:04] <IchGuckLive> i do this on my airfoil
[17:10:52] <ktchk> nice, the best is to have a tangent knife to go with
[17:12:32] <IchGuckLive> in the simple g-code programms is the airfoilgenerator
[17:18:24] <ssi> so I got my hdl design all finished last night, works perfectly in simulation, and it's a thing of beautiy
[17:18:28] <ssi> but it doesn't fit in the device :(
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[17:18:52] <CaptHindsight> you can never have too many gates
[17:19:16] <ssi> this is true
[17:19:25] <ssi> and the device I'm using is one of the smallest you can get
[17:19:27] <ssi> but still
[17:19:29] <ssi> how disappointing
[17:19:38] <IchGuckLive> ktchk: this "getpixel((x,y))[0] == 0" is what your looking for
[17:19:55] <CaptHindsight> how about hand packing/schematic entry?
[17:20:10] <IchGuckLive> ktchk: on a black and wite image you may found only 255 and 0 numbers
[17:20:29] <IchGuckLive> ktchk: line 241 in the script
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[17:20:35] <ssi> CaptHindsight: it's too big by over 100%
[17:20:43] <ssi> I don't think I'm gonna achieve it with hand packing :P
[17:20:48] <ssi> especialy since I'm not skilled there
[17:24:56] <ktchk> IchGuckLive: Thanks I am looking at it
[17:27:11] <ktchk> IchGuckLive: Is the inkscape tangent knife still working?
[17:27:33] <IchGuckLive> i dont know
[17:28:28] <ktchk> any tangent knife cam for linux?
[17:31:32] <IchGuckLive> the script reads in the Airfoil dat file with 0-1 coordinate points produces a EPS file for drawing on canvas
[17:31:33] <IchGuckLive> for XY UV airfoil it looks at the position of the line at given coordinate on the other plane to synchronize the G-code
[17:31:34] <IchGuckLive> at given point edges of etchother SO i always got the same linequantity in XY UV
[17:31:35] <IchGuckLive>
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[17:41:26] <ktchk> The ttt is more interesting
[17:42:08] <IchGuckLive> there is a ttf2cxf available to get more fonts
[17:42:52] <IchGuckLive> short script brings in all your fonts from OS to Qcad folder
[17:43:28] <ktchk> utf8 kanji
[17:44:19] <IchGuckLive> works
[17:45:26] <ktchk> librecad same?
[17:45:33] <IchGuckLive> yes
[17:46:19] <ktchk> I am using inkscape to inport kanji and then heekscnc to make g-code
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[17:47:17] <IchGuckLive> also nice i woudt scale at 400px so best resolt on dxf out at inkscape
[17:47:38] <IchGuckLive> doing that 100 times a day for the plasma g-code
[17:48:20] <ktchk> some time need bigbluesaw to make it faster
[17:48:49] <IchGuckLive> Gimppng -> incscape bitmap vectorising svg -> dxf out -> qcad,librecad dxf -> sheetcam -> g-code
[17:49:01] <ssi> ktchk: I know the guy that runs bigbluesaw
[17:49:14] <ssi> :P
[17:49:17] <ssi> but now, lunch!
[17:49:30] <ktchk> the plugin for inkscape is goof
[17:49:34] <ktchk> good
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[17:50:16] <IchGuckLive> http://www.schweden-feuer.de/images/Feuersaeulen/Feu_hell/chinese.jpg
[17:50:26] <ktchk> I have to go to bad now bye
[17:50:34] <IchGuckLive> BY
[17:51:05] <ktchk> japanese
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[17:58:52] <IchGuckLive> ssi: still here
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[18:01:04] <cradek> archivist: experimental waltham 16s with incabloc: http://www.watertownwatchandclock.com/prodimages/exp03mov.jpg
[18:01:30] <cradek> looks like unusual flat/free sprung too
[18:02:43] <archivist> hmm I have a couple of Waltham docs here
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[18:07:40] <IchGuckLive> Ah the big blue script gives me better and less lines on the svg
[18:07:44] <IchGuckLive> nice
[18:08:19] <IchGuckLive> but sheetcam reduces also by deg folowing
[18:12:42] <IchGuckLive> im off by
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[18:20:35] <Tom_itx> mouser has BBB now
[18:21:02] <archivist> cradek, just found my parts catalogue from 1948 with the 16 A in it in two forms
[18:21:37] <cradek> can you tell if they had incabloc?
[18:23:48] <cradek> (this is a bit OT isn't it)
[18:24:17] <cradek> huh the hamilton 992B I'm wearing is also 1948
[18:24:25] <cradek> american watches were pretty darn good by then
[18:25:56] <archivist> just amoment will scan 4 pages
[18:32:13] <CaptHindsight> I just got my BBB's from Newark, they had 20
[18:33:25] <CaptHindsight> http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?sku=65W6016&COM=superwidget-link_OpenSourceHardware
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[18:53:18] <archivist> cradek, box went into swap slowed me down http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/PC/PC24_Waltham_1948_watch_and_clock_material/
[18:55:41] <ssi> Tom_itx: they have them in stock?
[18:57:30] <cradek> p74/4691-M shows a solid setting
[18:57:53] <cradek> actually they all do
[18:58:04] <cradek> that must be an experimental model he has for sale - interesting
[18:58:54] <cradek> p75 shows an obvious regulator and overcoil too
[18:58:55] <archivist> the serial number is close to the start number so could well be
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[19:01:31] <archivist> mice got at this document so it ended up catalogued twice, I need to fix that
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[19:05:16] <Jymmm> Can anyone think of a cheap waterproof panel mount connector? (2 conductor, 120VAC@0.1A Max)
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[19:06:25] <Jymmm> panel or bulkhead
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[19:54:22] <skunkworks> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AK_OYoNOBDQ
[19:57:02] <skunkworks> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WHqX0HhXzc
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[20:59:30] <jdh> anyone know if a BBB should work with a micro-hdmi->vga adapter?
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[21:07:26] <Tom_itx> you asked that already
[21:07:53] <Tom_itx> <jdh> is it microhdmi? or mini?
[21:07:55] <Tom_itx> <andypugh> Micro
[21:09:23] <jdh> that's not the same question thouhg.
[21:09:52] <jdh> but, it appears the answer is: yes, with some externally powered adapters.
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[21:27:59] <andypugh> Que?
[21:28:50] <PCW> Que pasa
[21:30:39] <jdh> que sa dilla
[21:32:33] <PCW> que sera sera
[21:32:56] <DJ9DJ> gn8
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[21:36:18] <CaptHindsight> PCW: yes, not much IO on that BBB fpga shield/cape/expansion/IO board. I just got some BBB's haven't decided if I'm still going to try and work with the Allwinner quad core SOC's
[21:36:58] <CaptHindsight> PCW: how did your FPGA board for the cubieboard work out?
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[21:42:27] <Nick001-Shop> <PCW> After I get all the stepper lines moved for the 7i53S card, Am I still driving the steppers with the gecko stepper drives?
[21:54:28] <PCW> I wont have the cubieboard card for the fest but soon after
[21:55:35] <PCW> Nick001-Shop not sure I understand the question...
[21:56:57] <PCW> I guess Cubie has a A31 board in the works
[21:57:35] <PCW> and the pin compatible A20 cubie should be available "real Soon Now"
[21:59:02] <micges> PCW: are you going to the emc fest?
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[21:59:37] <PCW> Yes for the weekend
[22:00:29] <micges> cool
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[22:01:29] <PCW> 6-21,22,23
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[22:01:44] <Nick001-Shop> <PCW> Trying to run steppers in closed loop and the 7i52S card has outputs. from the 7i2S card - how an I connecting to the steppers? Right m=now In using gecko drivers connected to the parport
[22:02:31] <PCW> Now they need to connect to the step/dir outputs on the 7I52S
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[22:05:26] <andypugh> I gave up trying to buy 8-40 ASME thread screws when I discovered that just about the only mention on the whole internet is on a consolidated table of all threads on one web site. My web site.
[22:05:35] <andypugh> So tonight I have been making them.
[22:06:14] <Tom_itx> 8 is 36 threads per my chart
[22:06:18] <andypugh> I only need 2 of that size, and as they also need to be oversize head, fillister form, slotted.
[22:06:31] <Tom_itx> ah hah!
[22:06:48] <Tom_itx> the chart in my office _DOES_ show an 8-40 thread
[22:07:03] <Tom_itx> so somewhere out there is an 8-40 screw
[22:07:36] <Tom_itx> i bet you could find em next week
[22:08:09] <Tom_itx> although i bet it is an odd size
[22:08:59] <Tom_itx> 8 actually comes in 4 thread pitches
[22:09:17] <Tom_itx> 30 32 36 and 40
[22:11:20] <Jymmm> LinuxCNC on Pi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLIo7TA82xE
[22:11:21] <Tecan> (WLIo7TA82xE) "LinuxCNC on Raspberry Pi" by "Kinsa Manka" is "Tech" - Length: 0:04:35
[22:11:42] <Jymmm> with an android tablet as the iface
[22:11:49] <Jymmm> via wifi
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[22:21:12] <andypugh> Tom_itx: Yes, now get me one with a slot, fillister form and a 7/16 wide head :-)
[22:22:09] <Tom_itx> the surplus dude has alot of odd screws here
[22:22:31] <Tom_itx> but he's been tossing alot of stuff out lately
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[22:24:23] <andypugh> He should toss it onto eBay.
[22:26:00] <andypugh> The other thing is that perhaps 8-40 exists in places where it was historically used, but when it was a current standard (ie, when the lathe was made) we in the UK were using Whitworth.
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[22:29:00] <cradek> I wouldn't be too sure of finding 8-40 in the US without some kind of special order. even 5-40 is hard to find at the hardware store.
[22:31:44] <andypugh> Anyway, I don't need it now. I made the 2 off 8-40 screws, and tomorrow I may make the 10-24 and 8-32 screws that are used each about an inch away from the 8-40. Would you be offended if I suggested that the US had rather more screw sizes than strictly necessary>
[22:32:08] <ds3> in what way?
[22:32:32] <cradek> I would only cringe because I'd figure you were trolling the channel :-)
[22:35:12] <andypugh> I am actually serious. The Metric system for screws basically goes M1.6, M2, M2.2, M2.5, M3, M4, M5, M6, M8, M10, M12, M16, M20. How many US screw sizes exist in that interval? (ignoring pitch variants)
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[22:35:49] <ds3> well... I have only seen even screw sizes
[22:35:58] <ds3> so that means they are moving in steps of 0.026
[22:36:20] <ds3> up to about 0.25 then it is just fractional
[22:36:55] <ds3> so there are a few more steps
[22:37:15] <Nick001-Shop> <PCW> I see a P2 TX3A /TX3a TX3B /TX3B connection and mention of /TX3BENA which I cant find a connection for. No step/dir outputs on the 7I52S
[22:37:44] <Nick001-Shop> that are marked anyway
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[22:39:09] <gene78> yeah 10 & 12, in either thread, 24 or 32, are special order, and broadcast equipment racks use them in 5 lb boxes. Irritating
[22:40:18] <Tom_itx> andypugh, we have coarse and fine thread starting with numbered screws going up to fractional sizes
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[22:41:31] <Tom_itx> whitworth was just ... odd
[22:42:20] <andypugh> Eh? Whitworth is the best thread ever, designed on scientific principles to be ideal.
[22:42:33] <Tom_itx> so why did it go away?
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[22:42:43] <andypugh> I am not really sure.
[22:43:25] <andypugh> The only odd thing was the 55 degree thread angle, which was chosen to give the best balance between tension and self-locking.
[22:44:02] <andypugh> 60 degrees is easier to _draw_ but that really has no relevance to anything related to making the thread.
[22:45:28] <Tom_itx> so the engineers were just being lazy
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[22:47:55] <andypugh> Yes. Curiously BA is much steeper again, 47.5 degrees. Possibly to make the mathematical relations of the other thread proportions work out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Association_screw_threads
[22:49:06] <andypugh> BSP is a 55 degree pipe thread, and is the international standard now: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Standard_Pipe
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[22:50:32] <jdh> I ran into something that used a 5-40 a few months ago at work. Had to order a box since there were none to be found on the plant site.
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[22:54:34] <PCW> Nick001-Shop what the name of your firmware?
[22:55:18] <andypugh> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/171055508047 Looks quite a lot like a lathe underdrive cabinet, doesn't it?
[22:56:19] <Nick001-Shop> SVST6_6_7I52S.bit is the file you sent me and I put it into the ini file
[22:57:45] <Nick001-Shop> CONFIG="firmware=hm2/5i20/SVST6_6_7I52S.BIT num_encoders=3 num_stepgens=3"
[23:04:42] <CaptHindsight> anyone ever work with the Kaman SMU-9000-15N Position Sensors? http://www.ebay.com/itm/390445838383?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649
[23:06:25] <CaptHindsight> http://www.kamansensors.com/pdf_files/Kaman_SMU-9000_data_sheet_web.pdf resolution to 1 angstrom
[23:07:24] <andypugh> 0.1% of full scale sounds less impressive.
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[23:08:19] <andypugh> It's basically an analogue proximity sensor.
[23:08:25] <CaptHindsight> yeah
[23:09:02] <CaptHindsight> I see them on older wafer rotary stages
[23:09:51] <CaptHindsight> Danaher stopped making that stage and I can't find the old specs
[23:10:58] <CaptHindsight> http://www.dovermotion.com/SpecificProductFamily_Rotary_Tables the new ones are really nice
[23:12:40] <andypugh> http://www.polytec.com/us/products/vibration-sensors/single-point-vibrometers/ can measure distances if 1% of the wavelength of the beam, over several meters, and at kHz frequencies. Not cheap.
[23:17:02] <PCW> Nick001-Shop:
[23:17:04] <PCW> TX0A = DIR0
[23:17:05] <PCW> TX0B = STEP0
[23:17:07] <PCW> TX1A = DIR1
[23:17:09] <PCW> TX1B = STEP1
[23:17:10] <PCW> etc etc
[23:18:34] <andypugh> This looks great, I wish I knew what was going on :-) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6ZxQrjfAE0&feature=player_embedded#!
[23:20:43] <PCW> also for 7I52S GPIO bits 0 and 23 must be set as outputs and set to 0
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[23:34:44] <CaptHindsight> how come all the nice granite vibration isolation tables are all 2K miles away from me on ebay?
[23:34:46] <Nick001-Shop> What are the line commands to do GPIO bits 0 and 23 must be set as outputs and set to 0?
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[23:50:42] <Tom_itx> andypugh, is he setting up a part to probe for verification?
[23:50:46] <PCW> setp blah.blah.blah.gpio00.is_output true
[23:51:13] <Tom_itx> like a cmm
[23:53:11] <Nick001-Shop> Thanks for the info. Hopefully I'll get to it this weekend. Got buried in work so had to put this to the side
[23:55:27] <PCW> for 7I52S (or any daughtecard) pinouts you need to look at the .pin file that goes with the firmware and the daughtercard manual (thats what I did)
[23:58:58] <andypugh> Tom_itx: I think he is probing a tool for diameter. Note how it gets bigger on screen at the end.
[23:59:21] -!- servos4ever has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [SeaMonkey 2.0.11/20101206162726]]
[23:59:44] <andypugh> They have done a lot of work on the graphics. It makes Axis look antique.