#linuxcnc | Logs for 2013-06-03

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[00:13:26] <tjtr33> the abc arm closer again, needs scaling and armature http://videobin.org/+6n6/7w7.html
[00:13:33] <tjtr33> its half puma, half vmc :)
[00:13:34] <tjtr33> i hope to use param s in the python gui for sizes rather than all hardcoded
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[01:07:40] <tjtr33> archivist, in a vismach gui, can i make a 'class' ( eg a bearing block ) and then 'instance' it several times?
[01:07:52] <tjtr33> i tried this and nothing is rendered http://pastebin.com/RsUft2Ti lines 144-158
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[02:24:48] <skunkworks> tjtr33: very cool
[02:25:28] <skunkworks> I played with visimach for a little bit - then alex_joni made my puma arm so I didn't have to.
[02:25:37] <skunkworks> (another project...)
[02:27:22] <GammaX> got my shars fly cutters in... boy do they look shitty! hoping the cut better then they look!
[02:27:41] <Tom_itx> what's bad about it?
[02:27:57] <tjtr33> skunkworks, thx: i'm redoing it as 5 axis, like the dmg's i dont see how the 6th helps
[02:28:02] <GammaX> they just look realy rough! lol Almost like they have been used since the 80s
[02:28:28] <GammaX> Usually tooling is smooth, these are not.
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[02:39:30] <PetefromTn> evening folks
[02:40:39] <GammaX> hey pete
[02:41:48] <PetefromTn> Hey GammaX..
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[03:40:51] <Tom_itx> i forgot what dir you put the .bit files in...
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[03:53:20] <GammaX> Tom_itx, do a search for .bit
[03:56:31] <Tom_itx> i figured it out
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[04:06:03] <tjtr33> dang! skunk left
[04:07:26] <tjtr33> http://videobin.org/+6n8/7w9.html this is like the DMG EVO line, super hear duty single support AB ( single support but huge bearings )
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[04:52:26] <GammaX> I think I need a better encoder for spindle...
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[13:34:39] <Tecan> im thinking of lasering out some rack and pinion
[13:35:02] <Tecan> i need a bigger table so this might do the trick
[13:35:26] <Tecan> unless someone knows a good deal for belt and pully
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[13:42:38] <Tecan> need 6' belt with no stretchy
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[14:00:12] <DJ9DJ> re
[14:03:12] <Mjolinor> if I have hte Gcode "G1 X96 A200 F1000" does the feed rate refer to the A or the X axis, it seems to me to be neither but is some unknown combination
[14:04:38] <Tecan> aha dirtbike chain + wooden gear
[14:05:13] <Tecan> or bicycle chain
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[14:06:30] <Tecan> http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:8505
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[14:15:33] <cpresser> Mjolinor: if you have multiple axis-words in one line you get a combined move. the point A200 and X96 are reached at the same time. the feedrate is specified along this path
[14:15:57] <Mjolinor> crap
[14:16:03] <Mjolinor> that makes it hard then :)
[14:16:09] <cpresser> using "G1 F100 X100 Y100" gives you a different feed-rate on the x-axis as "G1 F100 X100 Y400"
[14:16:30] <cpresser> the resulting feedrate in direction of the move is 100 in both cases
[14:16:40] <cpresser> its just geometry :)
[14:16:46] <Mjolinor> what I really need is "G0 A200 F100 X95 F150
[14:16:54] <Mjolinor> but that is a no no
[14:17:01] <cpresser> actually i dont know how linuxcnc handels rotary axis.
[14:17:05] <cradek> Mjolinor: see http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gcode/machining_center.html#sub:feed-rate
[14:17:09] <cpresser> never had one
[14:17:23] <Mjolinor> I read that, it doesn't specify how it is done
[14:17:50] <cradek> well it does -- can you ask a more specific question then?
[14:18:13] <cpresser> "If any of XYZ are moving, F is in units per minute in the XYZ cartesian system, and all other axes (ABCUVW) move so as to start and stop in coordinated fashion. "
[14:18:21] <Mjolinor> no it doesn't
[14:18:29] <Mjolinor> it does not say what the speed rate refers to
[14:18:46] <Mjolinor> as in the hypotenuse of the triangle
[14:18:46] <cpresser> " F is in units per minute in the XYZ cartesian system"
[14:20:20] <cradek> yes in your example you have X moving, so the sentence cpresser quoted is the answer
[14:20:21] <Andy1978> the norm sqrt(v_x^2+v_y^2+v_z^2)
[14:20:36] <cradek> (if you're in G94)
[14:21:22] <cradek> often people use G93 mode when doing linear/rotary combined moves to avoid worrying about units
[14:22:17] <cradek> that advice is given here: http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gcode/overview.html#_linear_and_rotary_axis
[14:22:58] <cradek> 5-axis code is almost always written in G93 mode for this reason, especially if generated by cam
[14:23:05] <Mjolinor> doesnt help I dont think, it took me 2 days to make the machine form an old HP inkjet adn I am now around 4 days into trying to get Linuxcnc to control it. I know I could write asassembler form source to do the same job in about 2 hours
[14:23:24] <Mjolinor> to run in a PIC
[14:23:37] <cradek> heh, ok then
[14:23:50] <cradek> you realize everyone here is trying to help you, right?
[14:23:57] <Mjolinor> I know :)
[14:24:15] <Mjolinor> coffe time probably, that always helps
[14:24:17] <cradek> if you still don't understand this, ask another question, or ask a different way
[14:24:29] <cradek> agreed, that's sure to help
[14:24:39] <Mjolinor> I do understand it now, it won't do what I need.
[14:24:49] <cradek> what do you need?
[14:25:35] <Mjolinor> I have 2 stepper motors, one is rotating a core and hte other is controlling the carriage, it is for winding coils
[14:25:58] <Mjolinor> so I need to rotate the core and move the carriage at a rate of 1 wire diameter per core revolution
[14:26:20] <cradek> ok, that sounds like easy coordinated motion
[14:26:35] <Mjolinor> yup, I can do it with a while loop
[14:26:37] <archivist_herron> that is something you calculate before you call your subroutine
[14:26:38] <cpresser> Mjolinor: you could use G95 and have the rotating motor act as spindle
[14:26:40] <cradek> if your wire is 1mm you'd move like G1 X10 A3600
[14:26:59] <cradek> so you'd get 360 degrees for each mm the carriage moves
[14:27:00] <cpresser> or just do what craded said :)
[14:27:12] <cradek> that would put down 10 turns of wire
[14:27:48] <archivist_herron> and a sensible F number to do it as best as it can
[14:28:37] <cradek> if you want to go back and forth, you'd want to use a loop, one G1 move for each direction
[14:28:55] <Mjolinor> but the F numbers are way different so it will take a week to wind
[14:29:12] <cradek> ok stop there and explain what you mean - because that comment makes no sense to me
[14:29:25] <cradek> there is a misunderstanding going on and let's nail it down
[14:30:12] <cradek> with that G1 move, X and A move in a certain proportion, because otherwise they wouldn't be coordinated (starting and ending together)
[14:30:27] <cradek> to talk about the feeds being different makes no sense -- there is only one feed
[14:31:13] <Andy1978> Mjolinor: please explain "(16:29:24) Mjolinor: but the F numbers are way different so it will take a week to wind"
[14:31:34] <cpresser> with "distance/feedrate = time it takes for the move to complete" (for G94)
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[14:33:16] <Mjolinor> I need to go back and rethink
[14:33:30] <archivist_herron> here the apparent XYZ F number means little due to the max speed of the rotary so F100 will actually have the rotary going faster than you think it would, so the X slows down to the rotaries maximum step rate, try it and see
[14:33:36] <Mjolinor> at the moment mm has no meaning on my "A" axis as it is a rotational axis
[14:33:54] <cradek> yes, A is in degrees, so A360 should be a full turn
[14:34:11] <Mjolinor> what I think I need is for a thread cutting lathe configuration wiht a stepper for the spindle
[14:34:24] <cradek> your XA machine is exactly what you need
[14:34:58] <Mjolinor> it isnt an XA machine, it is a XUZA + spindle machine form stepconf
[14:35:06] <Mjolinor> it isnt an XA machine, it is a XYZA + spindle machine form stepconf
[14:35:21] <archivist_herron> just experiment with your F numbers, it will coordinated the moves correctly
[14:36:00] <cradek> for coil winding, you could probably use G0 and get the motion you want with everything moving in a coordinated way as fast as possible
[14:36:11] <Mjolinor> I did it OK with a while loop using o100 while [#1 LT 100]
[14:36:11] <Mjolinor> G1 A96 F1000
[14:36:11] <Mjolinor> G1 X.05 F500
[14:36:11] <Mjolinor> #1 = [#1+1]
[14:36:11] <Mjolinor> o100 endwhile
[14:36:37] <Mjolinor> but it stops the spindle to run the X move, takes a long time to wind but it does work OK
[14:36:52] <cradek> I don't understand what that's trying to do
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[14:37:03] <Mjolinor> wind a coil :)
[14:37:06] <cradek> I think you aren't understanding what coordinated motion means
[14:37:26] <Mjolinor> it is a flexible centre, like say a piece of coax from your TV aerial
[14:37:42] <archivist_herron> use one line g1 a96x.05 F500
[14:37:50] <Mjolinor> it needs about 4 layers of 1000 turns of fine wire, it is used to measure current flowing in a cable
[14:37:51] <cradek> why would you run X and A separately?
[14:38:13] <cradek> they should move together at a fixed ratio that makes X move one wire diameter per turn of A
[14:38:18] <Mjolinor> because it seemed to be the only way I could do it, if I tried to do it together then the steppers stalled
[14:38:22] <cradek> you do that with a coordinated move like I specified above
[14:38:44] <cradek> ok, then fix that problem: probably incorrect velocity or acceleration settings
[14:38:57] <cradek> now we're getting down to the real problem
[14:39:01] <Mjolinor> yes, that si what I figured but had hte problem deciding what feed rate to use and couldnt work it out, that si where I cam ein about 20 minutes ago
[14:39:01] <archivist_herron> you have your max step rates set too fast probably
[14:39:37] <Mjolinor> coffee, noodle baked
[14:39:54] <archivist_herron> under load acceleration rates need to be sensible too
[14:40:10] <cradek> if you have stalls, the place to fix them is your ini file, NOT your gcode
[14:43:04] <Mjolinor> yup, I htink I need to go back to stepconf adn find out why it will now stall
[14:43:31] <Mjolinor> I set it carefully at probably 2/3 of what it woudl run at so it shoudlnt ever get anywhere near stalling
[14:43:58] <Mjolinor> I have probably done somethign liek change dhte microstepping since I ran the config or soemthing else really stupid
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[14:46:15] <archivist_herron> did you do your testing without a load though
[14:48:08] <Mjolinor> no
[14:48:13] <Mjolinor> I foudn the problem
[14:48:59] <Mjolinor> when I set the speeds with stepconf the axis was jsut an axis, I then edited the HAL file to make it rotational, that has totally buggered up the speed settings
[14:49:27] <cradek> yes XYZ are in in/sec or mm/sec, but A is deg/sec
[14:49:57] <cradek> the numbers will be really different
[14:50:01] <Mjolinor> at the tiem I tested the speeds I wasn't considering the next steps, just making sure it all worked
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[14:50:35] <Mjolinor> so now it is in degrees in stepconf I will have to redo the steps per degree settings as I have lots of gears in there
[14:50:43] <archivist_herron> I had to experiment with my speeds
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[15:21:35] <Mjolinor> sorted :)
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[16:11:31] <skunkworks> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mach1mach2cnc/message/140483
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[16:14:06] <cradek> heh, we haven't tried mac yet, but we're sure it'll be lovely
[16:16:34] <skunkworks> :)
[16:18:54] <skunkworks> I don't know what he means by OEM pc's only...
[16:19:07] <cradek> no idea
[16:19:58] <archivist> I think they are slowly going up a blind alley :)
[16:20:24] <skunkworks> they still don'
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[16:21:01] <Jymmm> Mac now have thunderbolt, so that would be interesting to see mesa come out with an IO card at 10Gbps speeds =)
[16:22:06] <skunkworks> don't have a commercial product - and it is already half way into 2013
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[16:25:00] <archivist> and the rest of the world are racing by
[16:25:34] <archivist> bit like ubuntu is with ermmmmm
[16:26:24] <JT-Shop> how can I show some pins while Touchy is running?
[16:26:59] <skunkworks> ctl-alt-t
[16:27:11] <skunkworks> then run halcmd
[16:27:16] <skunkworks> maybe
[16:27:38] <JT-Shop> I was trying to use halrun not halcmd
[16:27:43] <JT-Shop> brain fart
[16:27:46] <skunkworks> heh
[16:27:47] <cradek> you can unmaximize touchy and use your computer like a computer :-)
[16:27:51] <cradek> aha
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[17:01:13] <IchGuckLive> hi all B)
[17:01:40] <IchGuckLive> mices in poland totaly water boarded
[17:01:58] <IchGuckLive> i hope his shop is ok
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[17:16:56] <ssi> I got my stabilator turnbuckles replaced and rerigged
[17:17:02] <ssi> my plasma cut rigging tool worked splendidly :D
[17:17:31] <IchGuckLive> yeah go for better and faster cut
[17:18:24] <IchGuckLive> ssi with THC ?
[17:18:33] <ssi> spending two hours in an 18"x18" access hole on my belly in the tailcone of the airplane sweating buckets wasn't so fun though
[17:18:36] <ssi> IchGuckLive: yea THC is working
[17:18:47] <ssi> I have to make sure to remember to set the voltage every time though
[17:18:54] <IchGuckLive> did you connect torch ok or only M23
[17:18:54] <ssi> I wish I had a way to control voltage from linuxcnc, but I don't yet
[17:18:58] <IchGuckLive> M3
[17:18:59] <ssi> I have arc-ok
[17:20:17] <IchGuckLive> i w need to test if it works if i start thc from pircing height
[17:20:35] <IchGuckLive> i have no pin left for arc ok now
[17:23:04] <ssi> so I have two of these boards:
[17:23:05] <ssi> http://ebrombaugh.studionebula.com/embedded/bcc/index.html
[17:23:10] <ssi> and parts for them coming today and tomorrow
[17:23:30] <ssi> I Want to see if I can hack up a 5i25 firmware and make it run on there, using the 28 pin header on the right as a superport
[17:23:33] <ssi> might be horrible wishful thinking
[17:24:31] <IchGuckLive> you gt it
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[17:30:03] <IchGuckLive> hi joe9 hi Daywalker198454
[17:30:30] <Daywalker198454> hi , alles klar
[17:30:30] <Daywalker198454> ???
[17:30:37] <IchGuckLive> solang das wetter so bleibt
[17:30:48] <Daywalker198454> astreines mopedwetter ;)
[17:32:18] <IchGuckLive> B)
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[18:16:33] * JT-Shop wished people would start their problem description with I modified the xx instructions to use the USB port and it won't work... instead me fishing for days for the real issue
[18:17:35] <archivist> getting the right question is always "interesting"
[18:19:30] <PCW> Always posting dmesg log on linuxcnc startup failures woulds ave a lot of time
[18:19:48] <cradek> posting?
[18:20:00] <PCW> on the forum
[18:20:08] <cradek> always?
[18:20:48] <PCW> well the linuxCNC error messages are rather scattered about
[18:21:09] <cradek> very true. it would be nice if they made more sense. there's a lot of noise.
[18:21:22] <cradek> usually there's one line that's important, and 200 other lines
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[18:27:11] <PCW> I'm mainly referring to the last thread I responded to on the forum. hostmot2 startup problems are often easily resolvable with the dmesg info
[18:27:41] <PCW> Its also a bug in hostmot2 that the firmware does not know it own name
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[18:32:49] <Mjolinor> Picture of my winder working, thanks for all the help. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/dknpower/winder.jpg
[18:33:23] <cradek> awesome
[18:33:33] <Mjolinor> best use of HP inkjets methinks :)
[18:36:52] <cradek> I don't really understand what I'm seeing
[18:37:24] <Mjolinor> the coil is the long white thing, it starts off life as the centre out of a length of coax about a foot long
[18:38:44] <cradek> oh I see now
[18:38:50] <cradek> does the moving head support it somehow?
[18:39:08] <Mjolinor> yes
[18:39:13] <cradek> gotcha
[18:39:14] <Mjolinor> ill do a video, hang on
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[18:39:27] <cradek> and you wind the whole length of it with one G1 code now?
[18:39:37] <Mjolinor> yes
[18:39:42] <cradek> perfect
[18:41:53] <Mjolinor> http://homepage.ntlworld.com/dknpower/winder.3gp
[18:42:26] <cradek> cool
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[18:43:00] <cradek> it would be hard to wind something so floppy using a less automated method
[18:43:23] <Mjolinor> with a drill and another hand :)
[18:43:46] <Mjolinor> can do one in less than a minute with a drill but getting them identical is very difficult particularly with thin wire
[18:43:48] <cradek> yeah I suppose it's only being driven on one end
[18:44:14] <Mjolinor> the wire in the vid is 0.7 mm, I need to use 0.2 and this machine does that fine, by hand I can't do it
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[18:58:41] <archivist> at the smaller wire sizes the back tension can be a bit fussy
[18:59:49] <cradek> I've always wanted to try rewinding accutron coils, but it seems you simply can't get the wire
[19:00:13] <archivist> never seen anyone put the supply coil offset like that before, usually its behind
[19:00:46] <archivist> I remember us discussing the wire for that some years ago
[19:02:08] <archivist> most of the wire got dispersed when the clockworks shut, just a little came home
[19:04:51] <archivist> cradek, there is the option of finding something else that uses similar sizes and dismember for the wire
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[19:06:13] <cradek> I think it would be hard enough to wind with perfect virgin wire
[19:07:13] <cradek> I understand that #50 and below are all too fragile to respool, so you have to just buy whatever comes on the spool from the manufacturer
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[19:09:21] <cradek> my best guess is they used AWG54 which is 0.0158 mm
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[19:20:59] <Nick001-Shop> <PCW> Can you look at my ini & hal file and markup what I need? Do I send them directly to you or pastbin?
[19:33:22] <PCW> Can you pastebin them?
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[19:46:37] <Nick001-Shop> OK
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[19:55:09] <Nick001-Shop> <PCW> http://pastebin.com/5U53bMTy has both files
[19:59:24] <archivist> cradek, got called away by neighbour , kid dropped his lap top and broke the screen :)
[19:59:37] <cradek> ooch
[20:00:45] <archivist> acer aspire, still works on an external monitor though so not that bad
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[20:02:57] <archivist> hmm £60 delivered by the look of it
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[20:03:40] <cradek> eh just bring up another laptop from the basement and restore his home directory from tape :-)
[20:06:07] <archivist> I do not have a stock of working laptops :(
[20:07:18] <skunkworks> I have replace many many screens.
[20:07:51] <skunkworks> replaced
[20:10:56] <JT-Shop> I have a stock of broken laptops
[20:11:11] <archivist> hmm just googling for thin wire and a source being recommended is quartz movements, I have a "few"
[20:13:28] <archivist> cradek, was that wire size with or without the insulation
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[20:14:02] <cradek> with
[20:14:23] <cradek> I think
[20:14:54] <cradek> measured visually (microscope) so it'd probably measure the coating too
[20:17:39] <archivist> I just dismembered a movement will go upstairs and measure
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[20:31:55] <archivist> .0028 a bit too thick
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[20:34:35] <cradek> that sounds like AWG41
[20:35:29] <cradek> more than 4x the diameter of what I'd need
[20:35:45] <archivist> I could just tease out enough to use a bench micrometer
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[21:08:45] <DJ9DJ> gn8
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[21:12:36] <Mjolinor> why do you want such thin wire?
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[21:20:45] <andypugh> Mjolinor: ah, I was hoping to catch you.
[21:20:52] <andypugh> You need a servo.
[21:20:57] <Mjolinor> hmm
[21:20:59] <andypugh> Not a stepper.
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[21:21:08] <andypugh> You coul dmake one.
[21:21:08] <Mjolinor> yes it woudl be better
[21:21:18] <Mjolinor> I took one off to stick the stepper on
[21:21:57] <Mjolinor> the printer had a dc motor and a scale thing for position on the carriage, I could have used that but thought it was too much work
[21:23:26] <andypugh> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281099904847 + http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/230962102508 = servo :-)
[21:24:15] <andypugh> (Actually, one of those brushless motors is probably a bad idea as I don't think that they are actually self-starting)
[21:24:35] <Mjolinor> I use one of those motors on my spindle on my PCB mill
[21:25:06] <Mjolinor> cost about £4 and has been running 2 years now, I expected it to self destruct being made in china and all :)
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[21:26:42] <Loetmichel> andypugh: they are, when fitted with three hall elements and a fitting ESC
[21:27:17] <Loetmichel> Mjolinor: depends... i buy my motors at hobbyking.
[21:27:18] <andypugh> Well, yes, but..
[21:27:24] <Loetmichel> never had one self destruct
[21:27:34] <Mjolinor> neither have I :)
[21:27:35] <Loetmichel> not even the VERY cheap ones
[21:28:10] <andypugh> I do know about hall sensors: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_P027KQ8ZHo
[21:28:25] <Mjolinor> its sits for hours at 30,000 rpm, quite amazed it hasn't thrown it's hand in
[21:28:28] <Loetmichel> but the 4 motors i have from Turborix sound like a tin can full of marbles shaken very well
[21:28:37] <Loetmichel> ... and did that since i bought them
[21:28:40] <Loetmichel> :-)
[21:28:45] <Loetmichel> s/did/do
[21:30:19] <Loetmichel> andypugh: that screams "LOTS OF TORQUE"
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[21:31:13] <andypugh> Step 1 of the conversion was finished today, I fitted a new encoder to my lathe spindle that wouldn't be in the way. And that counts the same number of steps every rev.
[21:31:32] <andypugh> Yes, I think that the washing machine motors are rated at 50Nm.
[21:31:35] <Mjolinor> always an advantage to do that :)
[21:31:35] <Loetmichel> andypugh: if you would speak a bit slower non-native english speakers could MABE understand more ;-)
[21:32:20] <andypugh> I am tempted to buy a bunch of those £10 encoders just because they are so cheap and must be good for something.
[21:32:46] <Loetmichel> +Y
[21:33:47] <andypugh> My own mother can rarely understand me, so it's unlikley.
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[21:34:07] <andypugh> You can turn on the auto-subtitles. That's generally good for a laugh.
[21:34:15] <Loetmichel> hrhr
[21:34:25] <Loetmichel> i CAn understand you
[21:34:34] <Loetmichel> its just a little fast for my ears ;-)
[21:34:39] <archivist> so can I ....just
[21:35:32] <Mjolinor> http://www.aliexpress.com/item/HOT-SALE-1pc-Incremental-optical-rotary-encoder-400-pulse/845959029.html
[21:35:37] <Mjolinor> bit cheaper :)
[21:35:46] <andypugh> The little square symbol to the left of the gear wheel one lets you turn on auto-captions.
[21:35:50] <archivist> we want some torque values from said motor next :)
[21:37:01] <andypugh> "drip footballs with little walter driver" is apparently one thing I say. :-)
[21:37:42] <andypugh> I would need to have it under PID control and stationary to measure torque, I think.
[21:38:13] <andypugh> Unless I make a brake dynamomenter, which sounds like a fair bit of trouble.
[21:39:35] <archivist> it looked easy to pull off the magnets, a local here has one he intends making a generator from and it sticks like sh*t to a blanket
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[21:48:40] <andypugh> It is a very cheap one. Aluminium windings, ferrite magnets. I suspect that the first generation ones (copper / rare-earth) might be rather better.
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[21:49:44] <archivist> the LG he has is copper, dunno about the magnets
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[22:37:48] <PCW> Nick001-Shop the next step is to add the stepgen setup stuff (steal from hm2-stepper.hal and ini)
[22:37:50] <PCW> and change the lines like
[22:37:51] <PCW> #net motor.00.command pid.0.output => hm2_[HOSTMOT2](BOARD).0.pwmgen.00.value
[22:37:53] <PCW> to
[22:37:54] <PCW> net motor.00.command pid.0.output => hm2_[HOSTMOT2](BOARD).0.stepgen.00.velocity-command
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[22:51:00] <JT-Shop> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JynwVKXzc9s
[22:51:01] <Tecan> (JynwVKXzc9s) "Supertramp Live 2011: Bloody Well Right [Full HD]" by "ComeFaceTheMusic" is "Music" - Length: 0:07:07
[22:51:14] <Tom_itx> like that one
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[22:53:05] * JT-Shop puts his water boy hat back on...
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[22:58:59] <Jymmm> I am retiring my IBM Model M keyboard *sigh*
[22:59:14] <jdh> I still have a bunch of them at work.
[22:59:39] <jdh> I love typing on them with the right height desk/chair, but they are annoying
[23:01:15] <Jymmm> Clearing off the desk of everything to make room for the new iMac
[23:01:38] <Jymmm> it feels weird doing it too, lol
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