#linuxcnc | Logs for 2013-05-10

[00:00:01] <nathanstenzel> is there a list of machines that linuxcnc works on?
[00:00:27] <r00t4rd3d> house sign design i jacked from frallzor : http://i.imgur.com/BvWInSa.jpg
[00:00:59] <PCW> The wiki has a list of known working motherboards and their latencies
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[00:02:56] <r00t4rd3d> nathanstenzel, you want one of these:
[00:02:56] <r00t4rd3d> http://www.ebay.com/itm/200542103383?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649
[00:04:06] <r00t4rd3d> they work great with linuxcnc and windows 7
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[00:12:05] <nathanstenzel> blech. windows.
[00:12:08] <LokiScarlet> What r00t4rd3d is trying to say is it works on some of the simplest good stuff
[00:12:30] <LokiScarlet> Hey nathanstenzel, doing anything this weekend?
[00:12:32] <LokiScarlet> :3
[00:12:36] <L84Supper> nathanstenzel: repetier and slic3r are free and broken applications written mainly for glorified glue guns
[00:12:40] <nathanstenzel> I think I would rather use a rasberry pi if linuxcnc works ok on it
[00:13:05] <r00t4rd3d> more headache then its worth
[00:13:09] <LokiScarlet> .... Okay now I just have to reiterate. You doing anything this weekend?
[00:13:18] <L84Supper> you could use your delta robot for milling but it's not designed for much load
[00:13:48] <nathanstenzel> probably drinking and dancing as usual
[00:14:01] * LokiScarlet runs a whois
[00:14:46] <LokiScarlet> ... Well that didn't help much. Nathaaaaaaaaan where are you :3
[00:15:38] <nathanstenzel> Chicago, but why does that matter?
[00:16:57] <LokiScarlet> Crrrrud. Because it's lonely here in Tennessee if you're not into staring at boobs and drinking light beer til you vomit from gastric content overflow. :\
[00:18:26] <nathanstenzel> uhhh....I am more into drinking rum and coke or stronger liquor
[00:19:27] <LokiScarlet> Inorite? If you're gonna drink, you're gonna drink.
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[00:21:58] <nathanstenzel> later, all
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[00:23:29] <LokiScarlet> Welp, time to find a CD and start steamrolling my Linux install. NetBSD here I come
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[00:24:12] <r00t4rd3d> that sounds rather horrible.
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[01:00:24] <mercuryrising__> thanks for the tip PCW, looks like something bad is happening on the mobo (swapped RAM, video card, no help), and thanks for the tip r00t4rd3d, looks like I picked out my new machine!
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[01:28:17] <r00t4rd3d> the 525?
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[01:31:26] <tjtr33> hello, i got a 1T sata drive for the cubieboard & BBB.
[01:31:26] <tjtr33> never had such a huge device. any recommendations for partioning?
[01:31:49] <tjtr33> leave big or a bunch of partitions?
[01:32:06] <Valen> 1TB is ok
[01:32:19] <Valen> you only need fancyness if you go over 2
[01:32:28] <tjtr33> format ext3/4 ?
[01:32:46] <Valen> dunno about cubieboard but ext4 is quick
[01:32:59] <Valen> what are you using the drive for?
[01:33:10] <jdh> ton of space for a bbb
[01:33:55] <tjtr33> well smaller is more expensive & i hope to use it for general archives ( portable) and booting those 2 devices )
[01:34:28] <Valen> cubie has onboard flash no?
[01:34:37] <Gamma-x> how much you guys pay for 1018 and 1045 per pound?
[01:34:44] <tjtr33> well, for building images for those 2 devices
[01:35:05] <tjtr33> to avoid crapping up the sd card
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[01:59:27] <mercuryrising__> r00t4rd3d, yeah, maybe, i had an old celeron that might be working, but if I need to get a new machine that one looks pretty nice
[02:02:11] <Valen> if your putting small files (building images etc) then yeah I'd go ext4
[02:02:42] <Valen> I would suggest however that cross compiling on a decent X86 machine may be quicker ;->
[02:13:31] <tjtr33> Valen thx
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[02:16:43] <tjtr33> i had not thought of cross compiling (doh!) it was suggested to build on a hd and i connected the wrong ideas ( dbl doh! )
[02:18:33] <Valen> cross compile with discc SUPERSPEEEEEEED
[02:18:52] <Valen> though the cubie is pretty quick I hear
[02:18:59] <Valen> could be a wash for speed
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[02:34:12] <ssi> I built a kernel on BBB the other day
[02:34:21] <ssi> it took 180m for uImage and another 180m for modules
[02:34:25] <ssi> 6 hours is way too long :P
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[02:57:57] <generic_nick|2> ugh, i must be getting weak, moving my lathe is way harder than it used to be
[02:58:08] <generic_nick|2> i need to eat my weaties
[02:58:21] <generic_nick|2> wheaties even.
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[03:05:50] <ssi> yes
[03:06:40] <ssi> I feel like I'm going to end up writing sheetcam over
[03:06:41] <ssi> heh
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[03:25:51] <Gamma-x> is there a huge diff between 1018 and 1030?
[03:25:55] <ssi> 12
[03:26:14] <Gamma-x> ill be making gang tool style holders from it
[03:26:23] <ssi> about 1%
[03:26:29] <ssi> not huge :D
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[03:30:37] <ssi> sorry i'm a smartass, disregard me
[03:33:04] <ReadError> gangnam style
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[03:45:10] <Gamma-x> lol
[03:45:18] <Gamma-x> hahah I hsould clal them that
[03:45:25] <Gamma-x> gang - um style holders
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[03:59:19] <kbarry> Is there a pretty standard guide for setting up linuxCNC (i am currently a mach3 user)
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[04:08:18] <ssi> anyone know anything about fixing burned contacts in a contactor?
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[04:08:27] <ssi> specifically it's an airpressure contactor off my compressor
[04:08:36] <ssi> and I can't figure out how to disassemble it far enough to file the contacts
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[04:13:31] <ssi> well I got it apart enough to file the contacts
[04:13:41] <ssi> but I shot a spring across the room irretrievably
[04:13:53] <Valen> I want this http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/DELL-POWEREDGE-R815-SERVER-4-X-AMD-16C-6276-2-3GHZ-256GB-RAM-2-X-1TB-2-5-SAS-/271200603436?pt=AU_Servers&hash=item3f24d0cd2c&_uhb=1
[04:13:59] <tjtr33> there's special files for the contacts, which are 'german silver' called burnishing tools
[04:13:59] <Valen> for EMC of course
[04:15:05] <tjtr33> ssi, but if the damage isnt great, you can rub dollar biils on them ( old dollar bills, the rag contact will polish the surface )
[04:15:42] <ssi> they're pretty bad
[04:16:38] <tjtr33> ssi best to replace them, contactors usually have replaceable contacts ( maybe look up the mfctr and googling burnishing tools has lotsa hits )
[04:17:16] <tjtr33> i just replaced contacts on a TECO with Cutler Hammer contacts ( often interchangeable )
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[04:18:08] <tjtr33> beware when opening spring loaded contacts in poorly lit dirty factory :)
[04:18:44] <ssi> :P
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[04:19:15] <ssi> I may be better off just replacing the whole contactor if I can get one
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[04:22:19] <tjtr33> the coil, body, and screw terminals dont wear out, only the contacts and maybe the springs. usually a big money difference.
[04:22:41] <ssi> I'm mostly just concerned about sourcing the damn parts
[04:22:43] <tjtr33> but as you like. its just that i'm cheap
[04:23:56] <ssi> I'm a little cheap, but a lot impatient
[04:24:03] <tjtr33> maybe dont use mechanical contactor, go solid state & avoid contact erosion
[04:24:04] <ssi> and I don't like leaving my compressor tank dry and empty
[04:24:12] <ssi> it's a pressure switch
[04:24:15] <ssi> not a contactor like you're thinking
[04:24:41] <tjtr33> "about fixing burned contacts in a contactor?" heh
[04:24:49] <ssi> it's a contactor
[04:24:54] <ssi> but not a coil-driven one
[04:25:28] <tjtr33> ok
[04:26:26] <ssi> point is, replacing it with a solid state relay would mean coming up with an electronic pressure transducer and some kind of control system
[04:26:32] <ssi> kinda overkill to cycle an air compressor
[04:26:49] <tjtr33> festo pev air sensor
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[04:27:12] <tjtr33> 0-8bar in, with settable hysterisis
[04:27:25] <ssi> what's it cost
[04:27:53] <tjtr33> ~100USD ? (good stuff tho)
[04:28:14] <ReadError> lol Valen
[04:28:20] <ReadError> waste, it has AMD cpus
[04:28:30] <tjtr33> 25$ ebay
[04:29:13] <Valen> you could use the same pressure switch and rather than putting mains through it just put a signal to a SSR
[04:29:24] <Valen> SSR's blow up all the time though (at least in my experience)
[04:31:16] <ssi> if I had that other spring I think I could put this one back togethe
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[04:31:26] <ssi> holy shit I found it
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[04:31:46] <tjtr33> i use the festo pev to check air pressure for a tool changer ( no pressure no change ) and drive solenoids withssr's ( opto 22's and Kyotos ) manyinstallations running many years
[04:32:01] <tjtr33> magnetic mechanic trays
[04:35:02] <ssi> I'm gonna feel like such a boss if I get this thing reinstalled and it works
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[04:38:17] <Valen> lol
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[04:38:25] <Valen> who is taking bets
[04:38:34] <Valen> 1:2 works for 3 days then catches fire
[04:38:38] <ssi> thanks for the vote of confidence :)
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[04:38:44] <Valen> 1:6 he electrocutes himself
[04:38:44] <ssi> heh I'm not worried about the electrical
[04:38:49] <ssi> I'm more worried about the air part
[04:38:52] <ssi> leaks etc
[04:39:13] <Valen> 1:10 he electrocutes himself after firing the valve through his face
[04:39:15] <Valen> ;->
[04:39:46] <Valen> ssi: lots of plumbers tape?
[04:40:08] <ssi> naturally, but there's a crazy orifice and diaphragm in this thing
[04:40:14] <ssi> plus the unloader, wtfever that does
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[04:40:47] <Valen> in an engine it basically lets the pressure out until the engine gets up to speed
[04:41:17] <ssi> I think it puts a little bit of air pressure on a little spade to help release the contactor
[04:41:32] <Valen> no idea
[04:42:02] <ssi> anyway it's back together, so imma go reinstall
[04:42:06] <ssi> wish me luck...
[04:42:14] <ssi> bad luck I guess if you're betting against me ;)
[04:42:53] <tjtr33> yes , often theres an air-aided port on such
[04:43:17] <tjtr33> good luck!
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[04:47:51] * Valen puts on safety glasses,
[04:47:54] <Valen> good luck ;->
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[04:56:18] <ssi> <= boss
[04:56:30] <ssi> compressor ran, filled itself up, shut off, failed to leak
[04:56:32] <ssi> and I'm not even dead
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[05:05:15] <Valen> still got some money riding on catches fire in 3 days
[05:07:22] <ssi> well if it makes you feel any better, I had a pvc joint let loose explosively
[05:07:24] <ssi> close enough?
[05:07:37] <ssi> it's one of the ones my helper glued :P
[05:07:56] <ssi> just now... loud as shit
[05:08:00] <ssi> ears are still ringing
[05:08:59] <Connor> ssi: Didn't someone warn you just the other day about using PVC for compressed air and exploding ??
[05:09:12] <ssi> Connor: yea but he was talking about the pipe exploding due to impact
[05:09:15] <ssi> this was just a bad glue joint :)
[05:12:28] <Valen> aparently pvc can blow up just sitting there
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[05:24:36] <Valen> doing a new machine
[05:24:48] <Valen> worth getting the 1200oz-in steppers over the 600?
[05:24:58] <ssi> how long is a string
[05:25:25] <Valen> assume money isn't an issue
[05:25:39] <ssi> it's not a money issue
[05:25:45] <ssi> bigger servos are likely slower
[05:25:50] <Valen> steppers :-<
[05:25:52] <ssi> er
[05:25:55] <ssi> yea steppers
[05:26:08] <ssi> it's what my brain meant anyway
[05:26:15] <Valen> slower in what way?
[05:26:42] <archivist> lower max rpm
[05:26:53] <ssi> right
[05:27:01] <ssi> but you can gear the bigger one for more speed
[05:27:03] <ssi> because it has the torque
[05:27:08] <ssi> but then you have to gear
[05:27:16] <archivist> the inductance is higher main reason
[05:27:19] <ssi> also I'd be more concerned about matching steppers to your power supply
[05:27:20] <Valen> we were going to belt drive anyway
[05:27:21] <ssi> yea what he said
[05:27:27] <Valen> its a new machine
[05:27:41] <ssi> what kind of machine
[05:27:46] <Valen> I wanted 750W brushless servos but it winds up around $3000 delivered
[05:27:53] <Valen> wood router
[05:27:59] <Valen> but we would like decent acceleration
[05:28:03] <Valen> 1/3rd sheed
[05:28:07] <ssi> what kind of rapids do you want
[05:28:09] <Valen> so 1200x500 or so
[05:28:18] <Valen> rapids aren't that important
[05:28:31] <Valen> mostly after the acceleration, we seem to do lots of fiddly little stuff
[05:29:29] <ssi> I'd figure out how much mass you're likely to be moving, plus the cutting forces of the router
[05:29:52] <ssi> work out what you'd need in the way of gearing for each one to get the speed and resolution you need
[05:29:58] <Valen> cutting forces are going to be pretty much irrilivent mass is 100kg
[05:30:09] <ssi> I don't think getting 1200oz motors "just because" is necessarily a good idea with steppers
[05:30:10] <Valen> gantry style design, so a pair of X motors and a single Y
[05:30:58] <ssi> 100kg gantry?
[05:31:01] <ssi> it's either huge or steel
[05:31:05] <Valen> its both
[05:31:12] <Valen> that is a conservative estimate
[05:31:19] <ssi> well it's either 1500mm or 700mm axis length
[05:31:24] <ssi> + up to 50% for motion
[05:31:33] <ssi> so 2m long gantry
[05:31:35] <ssi> is kinda big I guess
[05:31:47] <ssi> my plasma table's gantry is 56" across, close to 2m
[05:31:54] <Valen> 1200mmx500mm is the work area
[05:31:57] <ssi> it's made of 2x4" 1/8"wall rect tube
[05:32:01] <Valen> it shouldn't be 2 meters long
[05:32:07] <Valen> 1.5 perhaps
[05:32:17] <ssi> end plates are 1/4" aluminum
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[05:32:26] <ssi> I'd say the whole thing with motors and all weighs 100lb
[05:32:27] <ssi> 40kg or so
[05:32:38] <Valen> what acceleration and motors are you using?
[05:32:40] <ssi> I should actually properly weigh it some day
[05:32:50] <ssi> I'm using 2x 381ozin on the Y, and 1x 280ozin on the X
[05:32:57] <ssi> X can do 3600ipm at 200i/s/s
[05:33:04] <ssi> Y can do 2400ipm at 120i/s/s
[05:33:15] <ssi> I have it set at 1800, 100
[05:33:33] <ssi> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNo5JsQFgco
[05:33:34] <Tecan> (wNo5JsQFgco) "Cnc plasma axis test" by "imcmahon" is "Tech" - Length: 0:00:14
[05:33:36] <ssi> that's 30000, 200
[05:33:58] <ssi> 3000 rather
[05:34:19] <ssi> so that's what, 1270 mm/sec
[05:34:38] <ssi> and 5k mm/s/s
[05:34:47] <Valen> yes
[05:35:06] <Valen> the head on that would weigh nothing at all though
[05:35:21] <Valen> be lucky if it was 6 pounds
[05:35:28] <ssi> it's more than that
[05:35:32] <ssi> with the two motors
[05:35:43] <Valen> the bit that is actually moving in that video
[05:35:46] <ssi> yes
[05:35:48] <ssi> has two motors on it
[05:35:52] <ssi> X and Z
[05:35:52] <Valen> ahh
[05:36:00] <Valen> so 10lbs? ;->
[05:36:10] <ssi> probably more like 20
[05:36:13] <ssi> but sure, it's not super heavy
[05:36:25] <ssi> I'm also running it with a 280oz motor
[05:36:26] <Valen> ours is probably going to be more like 50lbs
[05:36:33] <ssi> less than 25% the torque you're talking about
[05:36:41] <ssi> and probably five times the speed you need
[05:36:48] <Valen> sorry more like 100lbs
[05:36:55] <Valen> the speed we don't care about
[05:36:56] <ssi> wtf are you hauling around that's 100lb?
[05:37:19] <Valen> 24Krpm spindle mountings, 600mm of Z axis
[05:37:25] <ssi> I see
[05:37:42] <Valen> thats a wildass guess but its going to be in that sort of ballpark
[05:37:44] <ssi> eh get the big ones then
[05:37:49] <ssi> you'll definitely have accel over speed
[05:38:01] <ssi> but make sure to match your power supply voltage to the inductance
[05:38:12] <Valen> how does one "match" those
[05:38:18] <Valen> steppers suck so bad :-<
[05:38:27] <ssi> Maximum Voltage = 1000 * SQRT(inductance)
[05:38:43] <ssi> so these for instance: http://www.kelinginc.net/KL34H2160_62_8A.pdf
[05:39:02] <ssi> 5mH in parallel, 20mH in series
[05:39:26] <Valen> I see
[05:39:28] <ssi> (that's surprisingly low)
[05:39:40] <Valen> wow so much inertia
[05:39:51] <Valen> the servos we were looking at were like 200
[05:40:07] <ssi> yea that'll likely be another issue
[05:40:15] <ssi> servos free-spin unloaded, steppers cog
[05:40:19] <ssi> big steppers cog A LOT
[05:40:34] <ssi> and they have great big rotors with a lot of mass
[05:40:42] <Valen> hmm I might head off to the pool
[05:40:57] <Valen> I'll have to look at in detail :-<
[05:41:10] <ssi> why not find some cheaper servos?
[05:41:12] <Valen> I was hoping the answer would be, put the biggest motors in you can and she'll be right mate
[05:41:21] <Valen> those were the cheapest servos I could find
[05:41:24] <ssi> http://www.kelinginc.net/kl34H2120-42-8B.pdf
[05:41:25] <Valen> dmm-tech
[05:41:28] <ssi> those have lower inertia
[05:42:17] <ssi> and looks like they'd be happy at about 80v
[05:44:37] <ssi> http://www.kelinginc.net/KL34-180-90.pdf
[05:44:39] <ssi> what about those
[05:44:41] <ssi> $150 apiece
[05:44:43] <ssi> 700W
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[06:28:01] <Gamma-x> ssi, you still on as always?
[06:28:11] <ssi> duh
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[06:28:48] <Gamma-x> lol
[06:29:03] <Gamma-x> were you trying to tell valen before NOT to get the nema 34's?
[06:29:16] <ssi> no, I was trying to tell him that bigger isn't always better with steppers
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[06:30:42] <Gamma-x> ahhh ok
[06:30:54] <Gamma-x> well im thinin about switching to more 1200's...
[06:31:27] <ssi> have at it
[06:32:21] <archivist> the real answer as always is use the right tool for the job
[06:32:58] <ssi> archivist++
[06:33:01] <toastydeath> jig bore all holes
[06:34:33] <archivist> but its hard work affording all the right tools and the space to use them in
[06:35:43] <Gamma-x> agreed
[06:37:57] <archivist> insufficient space in garage error, I keep getting that whatever I do
[06:40:38] <ssi> yeah I'm there too
[06:40:47] <ssi> I want to find a VMC, but I'll need to get rid of my clausing
[06:42:54] <archivist> I did some fabrication a few weeks ago and was a problem to get the things out, had to invert to fit through the gangway
[06:43:54] <archivist> http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2013/2013_04_15_glass_trolley/IMG_1526.JPG
[06:47:40] <archivist> the right way up after painting http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2013/2013_04_18_glass_trolley/IMG_1531_600.JPG
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[06:51:16] <DJ9DJ> moin
[07:07:23] <Gamma-x> how much better is cobalt than hss?
[07:08:19] <Gamma-x> also if u guys were interested.. http://www.harborfreight.com/3-inch-high-speed-air-cutter-47077.html?ccdenc=eyJjb2RlIjoiOTE2MzU0MzgiLCJza3UiOiI0NzA3NyIsImlzIjoiNy45OSIsInByb2R1Y3RfaWQi%0D%0AOiIxNDU5In0%3D%0D%0A&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=1913b&utm_source=1002
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[07:11:23] <toastydeath> cobalt is more heat resistant but less shock resistant
[07:11:32] <t12> are the mesa 7i80 cards considered production or beta for use with linuxcnc?
[07:11:48] <toastydeath> HSS is pretty much king of the home shop because a lot of small mills don't really have the gumption to run fast or hard, but they have a lot of vibration
[07:13:10] <Gamma-x> well i got a harbor freight 115 piece drill bit set for 48 bucks.
[07:13:19] <toastydeath> oh, you'll be fine
[07:13:31] <toastydeath> drilling tends not to encounter interrupted cuts
[07:13:34] <Gamma-x> yeah was hoping that'd be a good deal
[07:13:40] <Gamma-x> was missing 6 bits.
[07:13:53] <Gamma-x> all small so not worried.
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[07:21:34] <Valen> back
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[07:22:29] <Loetmichel> mornin'
[07:23:14] <Valen> ssi the issue with those servos is you need to add encoders, drivers and power supplies
[07:23:33] <Valen> and nobody makes drives that will hit the peak torque
[07:24:17] <Gamma-x> ssi, did you show me the shars granite blocks this morning?
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[07:37:00] <Gamma-x> if it was you, i got that guy down to 60 bucks with the stand, still working on 40 out the door.
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[07:49:33] <RyanS> Went to an industrial trade show yesterday and saw some mazak multitasking machines (wow) and a massive cnc lathe which I think that about 3 m turning length.
[07:50:39] <Valen> what the hell do they program those with?
[07:52:43] <RyanS> I think most CAM software can program multitasking
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[07:54:16] <RyanS> do they actually use the console thingy to program CNC machines?
[07:54:57] <Gamma-x> any of you use solidworks with cam works?
[07:55:12] <RyanS> I couldn't imagine why if the parts are designed in cad
[07:56:09] <RyanS> I have used sw but I don't know anything about CAM
[07:56:14] <archivist> cad does not do cam, cam plugins in cad or separate cam
[07:56:27] <RyanS> i know
[07:56:36] <archivist> or good old human cam
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[07:57:18] <RyanS> What I meant was if you have parts that are complex enough to require a multitasking machine why bother fiddling with the console
[07:57:56] <archivist> because a lot of cam cannot handle complexity or costs too much
[07:59:11] <RyanS> But nobody is going to stand at the console and program a turbine impeller by hand?
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[08:01:04] <archivist> where the machines gcode can handle the maths it can be a lot faster and better with hand coding for some work
[08:02:28] <archivist> all depends on where the unit cost of an item needs optimising
[08:03:55] <RyanS> I find the classes of machines confusing lathes that can mill and vice versa, 'multi-tasking'
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[08:04:17] <RyanS> Five axis simultaneous milling
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[08:05:55] <archivist> sliding head lathes with back turning and milling, more than 5 axis :)
[08:07:31] <archivist> here the part to part time is important, one may use cam to get the first part but then fix the code by hand to get the part time lower
[08:09:47] <RyanS> mazak integrex j-300 is the one they had running
[08:10:42] <RyanS> Reminds me of a vending machine with the door closed
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[08:28:15] <RyanS> If a part needs to be milled and turned on two separate cnc machines is it a pain to transfer and get everything positioned?
[08:29:16] <archivist> depends
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[08:31:29] <toastydeath> in general, yes
[08:31:41] <toastydeath> if it really matters, it's not incredibly difficult *as long as the machine is accurate*
[08:32:17] <toastydeath> if you're trying to set up a machine with hard jaws on a vice or 3/4 jaw chuck, you're playing a losing game
[08:33:18] <toastydeath> also, if you don't touch any surfaces you've already milled or turned, you're usually good no matter what the machine
[08:33:37] <toastydeath> the issue is when you have to blend a cut on a surface that's half finished
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[08:44:22] <RyanS> so do multitasking machines do a good job turning & milling or it's a trade off?
[08:45:01] <toastydeath> what kind of multitasking machine
[08:45:15] <toastydeath> are you talking about a a 5+ axis lathe or like, a desktop unit
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[08:46:45] <toastydeath> it also depends on your reference
[08:46:52] <archivist> the samples, off a Citizen, I have seem exceptional quality
[08:47:44] <toastydeath> screw machines are VERY fast, but don't deal well with heavy loads
[08:48:31] <toastydeath> a mill/turn machining center from an actual brand will be damn good all around
[08:48:50] <toastydeath> it won't be AS accurate at as heavy loads as a dedicated mill, but the lathe portion is untouched
[08:49:38] <toastydeath> if your part will fit on a cnc single spindle screw machine, that's a great way to make a lot of something quickly
[08:50:06] <RyanS> http://english.mazak.jp/cgi-bin/itemreg/itemreg.cgi?session=&action=item_disp&key=94715495
[08:50:11] <RyanS> Like this
[08:50:41] <toastydeath> they're damn good, if you can afford it.
[08:51:05] <archivist> depends on the parts you are making too, use the right machine for the job
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[08:51:17] <toastydeath> even a used integrex (or similar quality tool) is going to be in quarter million to full million dollar range, sans tooling
[08:51:34] <toastydeath> depending on how many axes, turrets, etc
[08:52:26] <RyanS> It seems like some CNC lathes with an additional spindle for milling can make pretty much any part using bar stock
[08:52:34] <RyanS> Probably wastes a lot
[08:52:41] <toastydeath> it depends on what you're doing
[08:54:00] <toastydeath> also the dirty secret is that full automation doesn't work as well as people think it does
[08:54:07] <toastydeath> not all jobs can be automated
[08:54:31] <toastydeath> (for a reasonable price, anyway)
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[08:55:34] <RyanS> so they can't retrench all the workers and can get an army of tending robots
[08:57:03] <toastydeath> the issue is that robots fuck things up in interesting ways
[08:57:18] <toastydeath> and nobody catches it until an entire week's worth of parts goes in the shit bin
[08:57:36] <RyanS> I was reading that none of the top end manufacturers are making manual lathes, mills any more
[08:57:44] <toastydeath> why would they
[08:58:20] <RyanS> Maintenance workshops?
[08:58:50] <RyanS> not still a market for it?
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[08:59:17] <toastydeath> repair shops are staffed largely by old guys who can't afford 125,000 or more for a manual machine
[09:00:37] <toastydeath> also, the amount of amazing old iron at dirt cheap prices means nobody's going to buy an "okay" machine when they can buy a Pacemaker for 8k
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[09:01:03] <RyanS> How much are those Taiwanese Brideeport clones these days?
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[09:01:28] <RyanS> oh...That's what you're referring to?
[09:01:47] <toastydeath> no?
[09:02:07] <toastydeath> American Pacemaker, it's one of the old, great manual lathes from the ww2 era
[09:02:16] <RyanS> ok
[09:02:20] <toastydeath> same with Monarch, Leblond, DSG, etc
[09:02:32] <toastydeath> BP clones start at 4k and go to 10k
[09:02:46] <toastydeath> anything less than 4k looks like a BP but usually has some serious faults with it
[09:02:49] <toastydeath> (new)
[09:03:12] <toastydeath> there are some pretty fancy "improved bridgeport" machines that go up to 35-40k
[09:03:15] <RyanS> Does something that old go seriously out of alignment beyond all repair?
[09:03:28] <toastydeath> something like a pacemaker? not usually, no.
[09:03:48] <toastydeath> obviously any metalcutting tool CAN destroy itself but the best makes tend to be fairly bombproof.
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[09:04:36] <toastydeath> you have to be far more worried about a bridgeport being worn out
[09:04:51] <RyanS> oh ok I thought it might have something to do with how much abuse was thrown at
[09:05:05] <toastydeath> no, it's that nobody but repair shops use old lathes
[09:05:28] <toastydeath> any old iron that was big enough got converted to cnc in the mid 80s
[09:06:37] <toastydeath> the bearing surfaces on good lathes is so big that the wear is usually minimal
[09:08:39] <RyanS> So Bridgeport is overrated? I'm just a bit suspicious because it' is a brand that is bandied about lots
[09:08:50] <toastydeath> bridgeport is like a swiss army knife
[09:09:01] <toastydeath> you can do a TON with it, but it's a shitty tool for nearly any specific job.
[09:09:17] <toastydeath> but it means that if you have one, you can feasibly do MOST things.
[09:09:24] <RyanS> i see
[09:10:03] <toastydeath> you can do multiaxis work, the heat tilts and nods
[09:10:05] <toastydeath> *head
[09:10:10] <toastydeath> it's got a knee AND a quill, etc
[09:10:33] <toastydeath> 38" of travel on a 50" table or something
[09:10:37] <RyanS> It seems like it would be a nuisance to tram every time you adjust the head
[09:10:41] <toastydeath> yep
[09:10:47] <toastydeath> and when you fuck up, too
[09:10:51] <toastydeath> because that'll knock it out
[09:11:02] <toastydeath> you will get very fast a tramming a head, it's just part of machining.
[09:11:24] <RyanS> I saw one of those fancy Bridport plus at the trade show
[09:11:37] <toastydeath> I got to fuck around with one of the newer Fanuc controls
[09:11:40] <RyanS> Might make a good piece of furniture :P
[09:11:53] <toastydeath> i think the major appeal of the BP cncs is that they're.. familiar?
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[09:12:08] <toastydeath> and the conversational control meant you didn't have to REALLY think, you could get to cutting in short order
[09:12:44] <toastydeath> but now fanuc has essentially four different levels of programming and I don't see why on EARTH anyone would buy a retrofit-esque conversational control over a Fanuc 21i other than cost
[09:12:49] <toastydeath> or 18i
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[09:15:00] <RyanS> I was reading an article that is CNC machining centres become obsolete fairly quickly but it's surely cheaper to upgrade the firmware, control system, servos etc
[09:15:15] <toastydeath> the software isn't the limiting factor
[09:15:23] <toastydeath> in a modern shop you almost don't need a control per se
[09:15:40] <toastydeath> because all modern controls can be put into "stupid" mode where the CAM package handles all the path shit
[09:15:50] <Valen> G1 4 evar
[09:15:53] <toastydeath> accel/decel, etc
[09:16:14] <Valen> I reckon they become obsolete because fanuc decides not to support them any more
[09:16:33] <toastydeath> nope, parts and support are all fully available
[09:16:45] <toastydeath> we never had a problem supporting even the most ancient machine in the shop
[09:16:57] <Valen> for a price ;->
[09:17:11] <toastydeath> ANY control costs money in a job shop
[09:17:26] <Valen> true enough
[09:17:32] <RyanS> what the pc with CAM software actually controls the machine it doesn't simply relay the program?
[09:17:43] <toastydeath> the only control we replaced was a punched tape machine
[09:17:48] <Valen> heh
[09:17:49] <toastydeath> and even then, parts were still available for it
[09:17:53] <Valen> because the tape was worn?
[09:18:07] <toastydeath> it apparently sucked to have to load the program in and sometimes the tapes got damaged, etc
[09:18:29] <toastydeath> also we bought this RIDICULOUS lathe with an NC control from the 60s (not CNC, NC)
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[09:18:43] <toastydeath> three cabinets of vacuum tubes and state machine
[09:18:49] <RyanS> Surely not via LAN?
[09:19:07] <Valen> I hope it was running
[09:19:09] <toastydeath> you can do it via lan but the idea of the CAM package is to calculate the predited loads so the machine doesn't have to look ahead
[09:19:11] <Valen> that would have been epic
[09:19:33] <toastydeath> they didn't even try, they stripped the control off and put some shitty control on it
[09:19:39] <Valen> :-<
[09:19:52] <toastydeath> it was the most accurate lathe i've ever been around in person
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[09:20:47] <RyanS> So ideally the supplier'who sells the machine also supplies the CAM with all the necessary 'drivers' I guess
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[09:21:23] <RyanS> USB machining centre lol
[09:21:26] <toastydeath> not necessarily but you can get postprocessors for most machines for most major CAM packages
[09:21:41] <toastydeath> just keep in mind that if you buy a 5 axis mill or lathe you're going to be spending 15-30k on software
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[09:22:12] <toastydeath> (if you plan on actually using all 5 axes in contouring mode, that is)
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[09:23:06] <RyanS> Maybe if I win lotto I'd rather have one of those than a Ferrari (I don't even like cars)
[09:23:12] <toastydeath> haha
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[09:24:07] <toastydeath> also, if you have two mills, two lathes, a grinder, and some manual machines
[09:24:11] <toastydeath> that's most of a machine shop
[09:24:31] <toastydeath> like, used POS no name import VMCs
[09:25:30] <toastydeath> oh, and a cmm
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[09:27:49] <toastydeath> goodnight all
[09:28:05] <RyanS> I am the wrong person machine tools as I have a disability
[09:28:16] <RyanS> Night
[09:28:24] <RyanS> I love designing stuff however
[09:28:47] <RyanS> CAD
[09:29:17] <RyanS> so if I was filthy rich everything would be automated
[09:31:25] <RyanS> That's not a complete sentence...... "I am the wrong person to be interested in machining"
[09:35:59] <Valen> why? CnC machining takes most of the physical part out of running a machine
[09:40:03] <RyanS> that's what I'm saying if money was no object cnc would be perfect
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[09:41:06] <RyanS> 3-D printers don't really tickle my fancy.. only so much you can make with plastic
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[09:41:50] <Valen> they make crap plastic anyway
[09:42:21] <RyanS> indeed
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[09:43:20] <RyanS> I have to laugh when they say "it's going to change manufacturing, put them out of business "
[09:43:26] <Valen> people seem to like the acetone vapour thing to harden the outside of them
[09:43:37] <Valen> makes me cringe
[09:43:54] <Valen> I cant think of much I'd want to be further away from than a pot full of boiling acetone
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[09:49:15] <DJ9DJ> re
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[11:19:23] <DJ9DJ> re
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[11:55:32] <jthornton> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mA6c8xSHXIk
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[12:58:49] <PetefromTn> hello guys...gals.
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[13:12:32] <jthornton> After careful examination of the empirical evidence I have determined that going in a CW direction or a CCW direction does not make any difference in splatter to surrounding areas when eating a grapefruit
[13:13:11] <jthornton> however the CCW direction seems to be more natural for me, maybe because I'm right handed and right eye dominate
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[13:31:25] <PetefromTn> jthornton: Been out partying late last night have we?
[13:31:51] <archivist> do we take that evidence at "face value" :)
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[13:35:49] <LokiScarlet> Hi. Can't remember if I came here yesterday, but kiiiinda wanna make sure I'm not screwing anything up. Anyone know if a random dual rs232 card will work with LinuxCNC? The machine I'm hoping to control is an old WA Whitney punch run by FlexMate boards.
[13:42:43] <jdh> what woudl you do with a serial card?
[13:44:39] <jdh> jt: I am also right/right, I rotate the grapefruit CW
[13:46:17] <JT-Shop> JT doesn't party
[13:46:34] <JT-Shop> archivist: that and surrounding area
[13:46:59] <JT-Shop> jdh: must be a left brain right brain thing then
[13:47:31] <LokiScarlet> (sorry, went afk) Well, the machine seems to be controlled over a DB9 and DB25 serial connection, and supposedly the DB25 one is just bigger to make sure one doesn't plug a cable into a port it wasn't in before.
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[13:48:20] <jdh> I think there is a concept disconnect here. Might be just me.
[13:48:54] <JT-Shop> I must be left brained cause I'm never in my right mind
[13:49:19] <jdh> I had a beer 4 or 5 years ago, it was a pretty wild night.
[13:49:42] <JT-Shop> LokiScarlet: serial is not an option with LinuxCNC, you might have dig a bit deeper into the machine and connect directly to the drives
[13:50:01] <jdh> is it speaking to the drives, or drip feeding a control?
[13:50:57] <LokiScarlet> jdh: Two cables go to a board, that then controls other boards
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[13:51:21] <LokiScarlet> My boss seems to like leaving me in the dark about everything -_-
[13:52:22] <LokiScarlet> I don't even know if the ISA card in the old machine is really rs232 or just using db connectors to keep it simple ._. Nobody will tell me anything they know
[13:52:24] <cradek> LokiScarlet: linuxcnc is a machine control, intended to replace, not drive, that serial-input system you're talking about
[13:53:32] <cradek> haha, well maybe I don't understand what you have (surely I don't if you also don't)
[13:53:35] <ssi> I kinda wish I had a grapefruit right now
[13:53:45] <ssi> although I've been disappointed with every piece of fruit I've eaten this year
[13:53:48] <jdh> ssi: big texas ruby red
[13:55:15] <jdh> you could look at the isa card for a mfg/part#. Check the installed software. Check the pins in use on the db25. Search for documentatinon in that cabinet nobody looks in.
[13:56:10] <cradek> yes to answer any questions we need to know a lot more about 1) what you have, and 2) what you are trying to do
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[13:57:42] <jdh> but, to answer your question, even it if isn't relevant. A random rs232 card will probably work fine in Linux, but linuxcnc will have no use for it.
[13:59:46] <cradek> http://www.machinery-management.com/fabm/4729.htm
[13:59:51] <cradek> no picture of control though
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[14:00:27] <jdh> that's big.
[14:02:29] <cradek> from 1985, it might have a bit of ram, or it might run from paper tape (or equivalent)
[14:03:27] <jdh> I have a couple of PLCs that will load from paper tape.
[14:03:34] <LokiScarlet> So... Back to square one with the issue of "the software for this is obcure"?
[14:03:41] <LokiScarlet> *obscure
[14:03:46] <cradek> LokiScarlet: again, we don't know what you even have
[14:04:00] <cradek> LokiScarlet: don't ask people to guess things, you'll get bad information
[14:04:06] <LokiScarlet> I honestly wish I could tell you more.
[14:05:32] <cradek> if you can't do anything else, go take a bunch of photos and put them online for us to see. photograph the motors, electrical cabinets, circuit boards, control panels
[14:05:59] <jdh> and the ISA board. And the software.
[14:06:13] <cradek> a lot of us have enough experience to look at photos like that and figure out how it's likely to work
[14:07:05] <cradek> then maybe we can give you good advice, but only after we know what you are trying to do (are you trying to get the old control working? or replace it all?)
[14:07:46] <LokiScarlet> (Well, I thought I'd be getting the old control working but depending on what replacing it entails, I might look toward that :D )
[14:08:25] <LokiScarlet> I'll see if I can go back down to the machine and take pictures, maybe get permission to take a closer look at the boards
[14:08:40] <cradek> ok, good luck
[14:08:47] <archivist> is the machine dead at the moment
[14:09:10] <cradek> most of the information that will be useful to you is on your side of the screen, not in any of our heads :-)
[14:09:20] <jdh> then you don't have to worry about breaking it.
[14:13:05] <LokiScarlet> cradek: Sorry for my ignorance, first time touching CNC.
[14:13:15] <LokiScarlet> archivist: Pretty much. It was dead when they got it.
[14:14:01] <jdh> perhaps they should hire a mechatronics type person.
[14:14:06] <cradek> LokiScarlet: eh, don't apologize, we're all trying to help - sometimes learning what you don't know and need to find out is the best help at the early stages
[14:14:56] <LokiScarlet> So true.
[14:16:45] <JT-Shop> LokiScarlet: have you browsed the forum yet?
[14:17:13] <JT-Shop> sometimes you can get a lot of answers just lurking in the forum
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[14:21:03] <LokiScarlet> Does trying count? :3c
[14:21:40] <LokiScarlet> Oooh it's working
[14:23:30] <JT-Shop> yep, you can get some valuable information while trying
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[14:26:59] <jdh> and by looking.
[14:30:15] <LokiScarlet> Well now that I can get into the forum... Yeeeeeah I'll be lurking :3
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[14:40:02] <pcw_home> http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00090186/00001/30j
[14:44:20] <cradek> hm, "motion coprocessor" fed by a 286
[14:44:26] <cradek> good find
[14:44:38] <pcw_home> with 2 serial ports...
[14:44:55] <jdh> and analog out to the servos?
[14:45:14] <pcw_home> in that case yes
[14:45:23] <Aero-Tec> I need to cut threads on a lathe, single point
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[14:46:00] <cradek> yes it says the MCP has analog voltage (positional error) output
[14:46:22] <cradek> seems like that's not quite the same as velocity command, but close
[14:46:39] <Aero-Tec> the example uses G33 but G76 is for threading
[14:46:52] <Aero-Tec> is one better then the other?
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[14:47:11] <cradek> you can cut threads with either. one is the basic synchronized linear move, the other is an intricate canned cycle
[14:47:12] <Aero-Tec> why is the example done with G33 and not G76?
[14:47:25] <cradek> perhaps there is more than one example
[14:47:28] <archivist> there is an example g76
[14:48:46] <space45> lol
[14:48:51] <space45> did not see it
[14:49:42] <Aero-Tec> ok found it, G76, I was looking for threading
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[14:56:12] <L84Supper> interface between HAL and the Arduino http://axis.unpy.net/01198594294 and HAL2Arduino http://emc2arduino.wordpress.com/ https://github.com/dewy721/EMC-2-Arduino/tree/master/Downloads/HAL2Arduino
[14:57:13] <L84Supper> what would be a better long term ARM family of boards to support since Arduino is getting old?
[14:57:20] <skunkworks> looks like .01 second servo loop
[14:58:53] <pcw_home> on the Flexmate?
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[15:08:56] <Aero-Tec> BTW I switch over to mIRC from chatzilla, not sure that I like it as much
[15:09:40] * jdh hands Aero-Tec a shiny new copy of Linux.
[15:10:26] <Aero-Tec> yea I need to set up a linux box in the office as well
[15:12:09] <Aero-Tec> I just noticed, no spell check....ouch
[15:20:09] <LokiScarlet> Haven't been able to go back to the machine yet, but here's some info that might help.
[15:22:42] <LokiScarlet> The software is some FlexMate stuff preconfigured on DOS, that installs from 8 floppies. I have a list of files from all of them, albeit disk 5 is bad, and can pastebin that if it's useful at all
[15:22:52] <archivist> LokiScarlet, did you see that link PCW pointed at ? http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00090186/00001/30j
[15:23:58] <LokiScarlet> No, I didn't see that. Thanks.
[15:24:05] <archivist> gives us a clue to what is on those connectors, not serial
[15:25:56] <LokiScarlet> >DOS 3.3 WOuld it matter if this one is dos 6.22?
[15:26:36] <archivist> if replacing the control, no
[15:27:54] <Aero-Tec> can G76 do tapered threads?
[15:28:10] <Aero-Tec> like pipe threads
[15:28:20] <archivist> not at the moment
[15:29:03] <Aero-Tec> so setting E value would or could not give you a pipe thread
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[15:30:08] <Aero-Tec> thought maybe if E was set for a taper the full length of the thread it would make a pipe thread
[15:30:21] <L84Supper> LokiScarlet: if you replace the controller of that machine with supported boards along with other modifications, it most likely could be controller by Linuxcnc
[15:31:22] <L84Supper> LokiScarlet: you'll have to understand enough about what types of motors and encoders the machine currently uses to see how much you'll have to change
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[15:33:12] <L84Supper> LokiScarlet: if you're willing to learn enough about motors. encoders, limit and home switches etc etc, you most likely can convert that machine to Linuxcnc control
[15:33:13] <FredrikHson1> argh curse you dynamyte 2400 and your spindle post!
[15:33:42] <Aero-Tec> I do not get the E value for G76
[15:34:01] <LokiScarlet> L84Supper: Funny enough I always wanted to program robots.
[15:34:14] <archivist> Aero-Tec, the E is normally for pulling out at the end or start
[15:34:42] <L84Supper> PCW: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/435742530/udoo-android-linux-arduino-in-a-tiny-single-board for people that don't want to use a cable to connect two boards
[15:35:01] <jdh> someone posted code on the forum to do NPT threads relatively recently
[15:37:22] <Aero-Tec> they use G33 for the pipe thread?
[15:37:38] <jdh> didn't look at the code
[15:37:51] <Aero-Tec> would love to see the pipe thread code
[15:37:56] <LokiScarlet> Sooo.... Since it says the System CoProcessor runs DOS.. That would refer to the PC attached to the cabinet?
[15:38:04] <Aero-Tec> any idea how I can find it?
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[15:40:21] <L84Supper> LokiScarlet: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00090186/00001/31j just change this to a modern PC and some motion control boards and you should be good to go
[15:40:38] * jdh googles linuxcnc npt threading
[15:40:54] <jdh> http://www.linuxcnc.org/index.php/english/forum/40-subroutines-and-ngcgui/13006-ntp?start=10#29239
[15:40:58] <FredrikHson1> https://www.dropbox.com/s/8z9uaqp4nleo8zf/damndynamyte.JPG ... that yellow post for the spindle always in the way
[15:41:09] <jdh> shoudl be 29209
[15:41:58] <jdh> FredrikHson1: make smaller items
[15:42:48] <FredrikHson1> whats the fun in that :P
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[15:43:13] <FredrikHson1> going to have to make it half the size can't solve this in time now without going smaller
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[16:13:18] <Aero-Tec> having problems logging into forum
[16:13:54] <Aero-Tec> ask for use and pass and no emails yet
[16:16:47] <Aero-Tec> will not let me request the info a second time
[16:18:13] <generic_nick|2> mornin
[16:18:21] <Aero-Tec> need to log in to see the atachment so I can see the code
[16:18:57] <Aero-Tec> morning
[16:20:49] <Aero-Tec> anyone know how long it takes the server to send the emails to you?
[16:21:02] <jdh> after someone authorizes you.
[16:21:02] <Aero-Tec> should have been here long long ago
[16:21:17] <Aero-Tec> I have a account
[16:21:28] <Aero-Tec> but forgot my login
[16:21:43] <Aero-Tec> asked for user and pass
[16:21:54] <Aero-Tec> guessed at user for asking the pass
[16:22:04] <LokiScarlet> Just sayin, got some pictures. A bit of quality control and I'll upload them.
[16:22:19] <jdh> oh, no clue about that. I just use jdh/jdh for user/pass
[16:23:10] <Aero-Tec> would it be OK to log in as you and get the info?
[16:23:20] <jdh> no
[16:23:37] <jdh> email address?
[16:23:54] <Aero-Tec> stanmc@telus.net
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[16:26:24] <Aero-Tec> thanks
[16:26:44] <Aero-Tec> not sure why I am having problem with the forum site
[16:27:38] <Aero-Tec> the botton on the web site just works one time
[16:27:52] <Aero-Tec> after that is will not work at all
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[16:53:52] <IchGuckLive> hi all
[16:55:00] <ssi> hi
[16:55:29] <LokiScarlet> Hey, if anyone who was there earlier wants the pictures here they are. http://cranberrytrap.org/cncmachine/
[16:57:54] <cradek> that's no AT
[16:58:30] <IchGuckLive> thats a ultramade 25 from omron in a okuma
[16:58:55] <ssi> looks 486y
[16:59:09] <IchGuckLive> yes with 25Mhz
[16:59:30] <ssi> vesa local bus :DH
[16:59:33] <cradek> that opto22 stuff plugs right into mesa cards
[16:59:43] <ssi> yea the opto22 stuff is nice
[16:59:50] <ssi> makes life easy
[17:00:08] <ssi> if I re-wire my hnc, I may get some
[17:00:09] <cradek> that's not VLB
[17:00:28] <ssi> the brown connector?
[17:00:39] <ssi> it's hard to tell if it's maybe a PCIX slot
[17:00:49] <cradek> that's PCI64. VLB would have been on an ISA connector
[17:00:55] <ssi> yea I see it now
[17:01:01] <ssi> in the second pic the PCI is hidden
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[17:02:04] <Connor> Yes, PCI64.
[17:02:10] <Connor> Way old school.
[17:02:43] <ssi> pci64 isn't that old school
[17:02:50] <ssi> I still have pci64 hardware around, server stuff
[17:02:53] <ssi> VLB is old school :)
[17:02:53] <cradek> that might be just a serial card. hard to tell without being able to see the markings on the chips. STARTECH might be 16550 uarts.
[17:03:05] <cradek> yes I still have pci64 in use too
[17:03:24] <Connor> Year created1998
[17:03:41] <IchGuckLive> this old stuff is stable as a rock
[17:03:43] <LokiScarlet> Cradek, it's ST26C550CP. So you're probably right
[17:03:59] <ssi> Connor: that makes it five years newer than PCI, which is still WIDELY in use :)
[17:04:04] <LokiScarlet> *ST16C550CP
[17:04:06] <cradek> yeah this is just a not-too-old PC running dos and driving a serial port
[17:04:14] <Connor> PCI-X, Superseded by PCI-E I.E. PCI Express
[17:04:47] <jdh> it looks way too clean
[17:04:48] <cradek> so is your goal to update it to run by linuxcnc, or figure out what's wrong with this system?
[17:04:59] <cradek> jdh: yeah it sure does
[17:05:12] <cradek> jdh: hasn't worked for a LONG time maybe
[17:05:38] <LokiScarlet> The system probably needs a reinstall, the way things are. Problem? Disk 5 has an IO error after 1.1MB
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[17:05:56] <pcw_home> They upgraded the PC but it looks like the rest is similar whats described in the paper (even the dual serial port interface)
[17:06:34] <cradek> LokiScarlet: maybe try a different floppy drive or three before giving up
[17:06:40] <pcw_home> Flexmate still in business?
[17:07:06] <LokiScarlet> I found the IO error when DD'ing the disks. Tried on quite a few different drives
[17:08:09] <cradek> I think that hard disk is a late-90s "bigfoot". iirc they were bad luck.
[17:09:11] <LokiScarlet> Oh you think that's bad? We CLONED the hard disk onto that one just a few days ago trying to fix the thing.
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[17:09:14] <jdh> I had a few of those, huge, and dirt cheap
[17:09:38] <IchGuckLive> afk chicken BBQ ready B)
[17:09:44] <LokiScarlet> I have the original HDD on my desk
[17:10:08] <LokiScarlet> Little over a GB and has that "old hard drive" sound
[17:10:48] <cradek> so do you have evidence that the past-the-pc parts all work?
[17:10:54] <cradek> bbl
[17:11:20] <LokiScarlet> Only the most fallacious, AKA trusting word of those who leave me in the dark
[17:11:36] <jdh> perhaps it is a test.
[17:11:51] <L84Supper> the caps on the MB are all past their lifetimes
[17:12:47] <L84Supper> if the cpu was kept near room temp vs 80+ C then it might have a few years left
[17:13:42] <LokiScarlet> Yeeeeah, my idea was swap the PC out and run a better system with better software. Hence how I got here
[17:14:28] <L84Supper> is it 4 axis with servos and some GPIO?
[17:14:59] <LokiScarlet> And I really hope this is a test. You really would facepalm if you heard what my boss uses as logic
[17:15:16] <LokiScarlet> L84Supper: It's a punching machine. Punches holes, apparently
[17:15:17] <L84Supper> that drawing had a i286
[17:15:31] <LokiScarlet> So I guess 2 axis? I dunno
[17:15:37] <jdh> in columbia?
[17:15:53] <LokiScarlet> What in columbia?
[17:16:07] <jdh> the punch
[17:16:25] <LokiScarlet> No. My workplace is in Pulaski. I live in Columbia
[17:16:55] <LokiScarlet> And I'm chatting with you through a Linux box in Chicago and connecting to...
[17:17:17] <LokiScarlet> England apparently
[17:17:23] <generic_nick|2> well my lathe is moved. yay!
[17:18:14] <L84Supper> LokiScarlet: if you don't learn about how it's wired, what motors it uses and all the controls you won't be able to convert the machine to Linuxcnc
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[17:18:34] <L84Supper> nobody here will have the time to hold your hand though the entire process
[17:18:46] <generic_nick|2> i noticed now the lathe pc is vulnerable to coolant and chips from the mill, so i should use my spare atom mobo and put it in the cabinet. ill have to get a much smaller pc pwer supply though.
[17:18:56] <L84Supper> but if you have specific questions you might get the answers
[17:20:02] <pcw_home> Looks like an easy retrofit though (all the OPTO22 stuff and its field wiring is reusable)
[17:20:04] <pcw_home> basically replace the entire lower card rack with new I/O
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[17:24:16] <L84Supper> http://linuxgizmos.com/amd-embedded-g-series-system-on-chips/ maybe it's time for this with an FPGA on same board?
[17:33:37] <generic_nick|2> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817129006&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleAdwords&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-_-pla-_-Power+Supplies-_-N82E16817129006&gclid=CPjV2KCHjLcCFWbhQgodsXQA3Q
[17:34:01] <generic_nick|2> what do you guys think about that for a d525w atom mobo
[17:34:11] <generic_nick|2> and solid state hdd
[17:34:48] <generic_nick|2> i dont see anything in my mobo manual about power requirements
[17:35:09] <IchGuckLive> Back from good Nap
[17:35:54] <IchGuckLive> the d525 is good with a standard sata on a mill
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[17:36:02] <IchGuckLive> no need of SSD
[17:36:24] <IchGuckLive> on a plasma i woudt go SSD
[17:36:45] <ReadError> IchGuckLive: small SSD is so cheap now
[17:36:48] <ReadError> $60
[17:37:01] <generic_nick|2> tell that to my prematurely dead hdd's
[17:37:02] <IchGuckLive> agree with you
[17:37:20] <generic_nick|2> i already have the hdd anyways. just looking for a power supply
[17:37:37] <IchGuckLive> sup mini atx
[17:37:48] <IchGuckLive> or simply 12V to ATX
[17:37:54] <LokiScarlet> SSD will last longer than your system will anyway
[17:38:26] <LokiScarlet> HDD's last a certain amount of operating time minus wear and tear from reads and writes
[17:38:34] <generic_nick|2> i have space restrictions so i was looking at the one i linked above
[17:40:49] <IchGuckLive> http://www.amazon.com/Coolmax-M-ATX-Power-Supply-CM-300/dp/B000C1DXR4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1368207611&sr=8-1&keywords=mini+atx+power+supply
[17:41:00] <roh> ssd dont live longer on average than hdd
[17:41:09] <IchGuckLive> Product Dimensions: 7 x 6.5 x 3 inches ; 13.6 ounces
[17:41:32] <roh> https://www.usenix.org/system/files/conference/fast13/fast13-final80.pdf
[17:42:04] <generic_nick|2> roh: it's the vibes that killed mine i think.
[17:42:21] <IchGuckLive> http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=PicoPSU-150-XT
[17:42:23] <generic_nick|2> precision spinning parts, harmonic vibrations, etc
[17:42:48] <roh> http://www.heise.de/resale/artikel/SSDs-sind-nicht-sicherer-als-Festplatten-1747517.html
[17:42:56] <IchGuckLive> this is the PicoPSU-150-XT for 12V to ATX requirered for 525D
[17:43:26] <IchGuckLive> 40USD on amazon
[17:43:42] <roh> sorry for the german article, but its quite well about the mtbf of ssds in real world use. bottomline: do backups. use raid. disks fail. regardless of ssd or spinning metal
[17:43:55] <roh> s/well/good/g
[17:44:21] <IchGuckLive> generic_nick|2: http://www.amazon.com/PicoPSU-150-XT-12V-DC-DC-power-supply/dp/B0045WFZSQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1368207733&sr=8-1&keywords=PicoPSU-150-XT
[17:44:37] <generic_nick|2> i need it today so i cant order from amazon
[17:44:41] <IchGuckLive> this is what you want
[17:44:53] <generic_nick|2> newegg is local so i can pick it up
[17:44:54] <IchGuckLive> go to radiochewck
[17:44:55] <L84Supper> generic_nick|2: we use the AMD apu boards vs any of the intel Atom MB's
[17:45:19] <roh> L84Supper: know a good brand which is available for some time?
[17:45:37] <L84Supper> roh: how long?
[17:45:52] <roh> L84Supper: well.. atleast similar to intel cycles.. feq years.
[17:45:55] <roh> few
[17:46:07] <L84Supper> oh, chipsets and apu's sure
[17:46:22] <roh> i dont want to put in boards anymore i can't get replacements for
[17:46:24] <L84Supper> I was thinking 5-10 year industrial boards
[17:46:49] <roh> i havent found any which are affordable and have dvi output as well as space for our current 3 parports
[17:47:09] <IchGuckLive> generic_nick|2: newegg has the part also
[17:47:17] <L84Supper> still using EPP?
[17:47:27] <generic_nick|2> really? i didnt see it. thanks, ill look again
[17:47:48] <L84Supper> DVI and EPP are both considered legacy
[17:48:29] <roh> L84Supper: well.. classic parports... no mesa atm.. cost money we didnt have.. and its not likely i get anybody else to support me on working on the mill when i dont loose steps at the current 1000mm/min feedsrates
[17:49:17] <roh> L84Supper: i know. but hdmi and anything else are either non-realtime or nonstandard (mesa IS proproietary) or doesnt allow for plugs which dont fall out (have screws)
[17:49:24] <L84Supper> roh: http://wwwd.amd.com/catalog/salescat.nsf/shop?openform
[17:50:17] <roh> so yes. currently the mill machine is 8.04, old emc and amd socket A 1.3ghz or so with a radeon gpu in agp.
[17:50:50] <IchGuckLive> generic_nick|2: store got also a AP-MFATX22 220W Mini ITX THIS may fit better to your mill and is better in elecctrics
[17:51:12] <L84Supper> we are currently fixing RTAI and also working on coreboot support for AMD APU's for long term support, it would be nice if AMD doesn't go under
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[17:51:42] <roh> L84Supper: i sure hope so. without intel will start failing too when it comes to innovation and quality.
[17:53:01] <generic_nick|2> thanks IchGuckLive, that might work
[17:53:02] <roh> btw... are there any 'meetups' or groups about cnc etc in europe?
[17:53:14] <IchGuckLive> generic_nick|2: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817129006
[17:53:29] <IchGuckLive> this is the DC DC
[17:53:35] <roh> i'd love to meet anybody also hacking on such stuff... we are in berlin and could even host meetings in our space if neccessary
[17:53:48] <generic_nick|2> thats the one i linked earlier
[17:54:01] <IchGuckLive> O.O B)
[17:54:47] <IchGuckLive> good to got WWW in germany with US conection LOL
[17:57:13] <roh> to be fair.. i am a bit confused about the few people from europe ive spoken so far about milling.. seems the communities dont mix a lot.
[17:57:56] <jdh> additive and subtractive machining groups have a long and bloody history dating back to the crusades.
[17:57:59] <cradek> I agree with roh: I can only conclude that people who think SSDs are reliable don't have much actual experience with them. I trust spinning disks more than SSDs right now (and that's not much trust.)
[17:58:36] <jdh> my kids trust USB flash drives.
[17:58:37] <roh> jdh: hrr
[17:58:50] <IchGuckLive> <- changes hole system every 6 month
[17:59:09] <IchGuckLive> 70USD a new PC is worth it
[17:59:11] <cradek> I trust both USB sticks and CF cards more than SSDs (again that's not much trust)
[17:59:31] <roh> i trust backup and raid.. the latter just for speeding up recovery.
[17:59:34] <cradek> my desktop machine and my mill both boot from a CF
[17:59:37] <jdh> yanking out a usb stick and carrying it around in your pocket is not conducive to long term survival
[17:59:38] <IchGuckLive> CF are lots of fakes out
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[17:59:50] <roh> seen too many disks of any kind fail in my few years of computing (sinve about '94)
[18:00:02] <jdh> save early, save often
[18:00:09] <cradek> sure, it goes without saying that important data goes on tape
[18:00:09] <roh> gotta run.. bbl
[18:03:00] <jdh> I'm going to my first 'meetup' thing tonight.
[18:03:20] <IchGuckLive> take a stake with you Raw
[18:03:29] <IchGuckLive> steak
[18:04:13] <IchGuckLive> and keep the tie clean
[18:04:35] <jdh> ok
[18:04:40] <jdh> (I have no idea what you mean)
[18:04:52] <L84Supper> most people think that 3d printing and additive manufacturing is just a glue gun, it's like thinking that machining is just a drill press
[18:05:26] * Loetmichel had just repaired 2/3 of a torn LVDS laptop cable.. why do i get the /&$%/"ยง%$ jobs when a developer screws a screw through it?
[18:05:29] <IchGuckLive> basicly it is
[18:05:40] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=14229
[18:05:45] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=14232
[18:06:27] <IchGuckLive> cause you are the best !
[18:06:29] <Loetmichel> btw: who makes 0,3mm diameter COAXIAL cables?
[18:06:45] <Loetmichel> thats a PITA to solder!
[18:07:14] <Loetmichel> even the desiolation has to be done with a webcam so i can see what i am doing ;-)
[18:10:16] <Tom_itx> like soldering earbud wires
[18:10:54] <Loetmichel> Tom_itx: better
[18:11:09] <generic_nick|2> cradek: my experience is i lost 2 hdd's in about 2 years on the mill. the sshdd is still going strong.
[18:11:29] <Loetmichel> the "copper bar" in the middle of the screen is ONE strand of a 0,14mm^2 stranded wire ;)
[18:11:45] <generic_nick|2> it has lasted twice as long,
[18:12:05] <IchGuckLive> by im off !
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[18:12:22] <generic_nick|2> that's all the experience i need.
[18:12:23] <L84Supper> generic_nick|2: what killed them? heat, vibration, EMC?
[18:12:39] <generic_nick|2> no heat, nothing gets hot in there
[18:12:48] <generic_nick|2> unless it was ambient heat
[18:13:09] <generic_nick|2> one stopped spinning
[18:13:18] <generic_nick|2> dont remember what happened to the other one
[18:13:34] <generic_nick|2> one of them was clunking
[18:13:43] <pcw_home> vibration maybe
[18:14:07] <generic_nick|2> this was a couple years ago.
[18:14:28] <Loetmichel> thats the reason why we have THREE concentrick HDD cages with shock mounts in our rugged servers ;-)
[18:14:34] <Loetmichel> -k
[18:14:41] <L84Supper> generic_nick|2: did you get to read any of the SMART tests?
[18:15:07] <generic_nick|2> i dont know what a smart test is so probably not
[18:15:20] <Tom_itx> load leveling for hdd
[18:15:25] <Tom_itx> wear leveling
[18:15:36] <generic_nick|2> nope, never even knew about that
[18:15:48] <pcw_home> I have HDDs that have been running 24/7 10 years or more
[18:15:50] <pcw_home> and new ones that die in 6 months, you just never know
[18:16:22] <generic_nick|2> pcw_home: yea, same here. hell, my laptop gets dropped all the time and it still goes lol
[18:17:14] <generic_nick|2> i wish i moved my mill 6 more inches. then i could squeeze between the cnc mill and lathe to get at the breakers.
[18:17:32] <generic_nick|2> i dont think i can push it with the jeep anymore now that the lathe is in the way
[18:18:04] <generic_nick|2> however, i think i can put some wood between the mill and lathe and push the mill with the lathe.
[18:18:17] <generic_nick|2> then just pull the lathe back.
[18:19:05] <generic_nick|2> does that sound redneck?
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[18:19:47] <Loetmichel> generic_nick|2: perfectly normal for one with tolls that weight above 2 tons each ;-)
[18:19:50] <Loetmichel> tools
[18:20:15] <L84Supper> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S.M.A.R.T.
[18:20:32] <generic_nick|2> lol. mill is over 3 tons. lathe is a bit over 1 ton i think.
[18:21:12] <archivist> place on rollers, little force needed
[18:21:42] <generic_nick|2> cant get under the mill with rollers
[18:21:57] <generic_nick|2> not easily anyways
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[18:22:25] <generic_nick|2> it involves jacking under the knee, which i dont like to do
[18:22:33] <L84Supper> anybody hear from Danimal lately?
[18:22:33] <archivist> toe jack
[18:22:46] <generic_nick|2> dont have one
[18:22:55] <L84Supper> he crammed quite a bit into his tiny garage space
[18:23:22] <archivist> !seen danimal
[18:23:23] <the_wench> last seen in 2011-02-17 00:01:29, seems to have quit or joined and I dont have a message
[18:23:40] <archivist> long time ago
[18:23:54] <generic_nick|2> thats me, i just coudnt remember my password after i registed my nick
[18:24:16] <generic_nick|2> it's been a while lol
[18:24:21] <LokiScarlet> I know I probably annoyed you guys, but had I not come here, I probably wouldn't have learned anything about that machine
[18:24:25] <LokiScarlet> Thanks
[18:24:42] <L84Supper> no problem, it's all part of the service
[18:24:59] <archivist> where do we send invoices too :)
[18:25:06] <generic_nick|2> lol
[18:25:56] <LokiScarlet> >that sad feel when I get told "okay we know so and so thing exists now let's ignore it til we get the green light to do stuff"
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[18:26:19] <generic_nick|2> ok off to work. adios
[18:26:51] <archivist> L84Supper, not much spare floor in my garage either :)
[18:27:05] <L84Supper> archivist: have any pics?
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[18:28:01] <archivist> L84Supper, like inverting a fabrication to extricate http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2013/2013_04_15_glass_trolley/IMG_1526.JPG
[18:28:19] <L84Supper> I can still back a semi into my shop, funny how if you have 100 or 10K sq ft it always fills up
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[18:29:54] <L84Supper> is there room to walk?
[18:30:22] <archivist> shuffle and step over
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[18:30:54] <L84Supper> we get the fire brigade through here from time to time so we have to have a path from end to end
[18:31:41] <archivist> that only applies to public buildings in the UK as far as I know
[18:32:01] <Loetmichel> lokks exactly like my workshop... just that i have smaller machines but more materials ;-)
[18:33:17] <roh> Loetmichel: why do you not just replace the lvds cable?
[18:33:41] <Loetmichel> roh: need it fopr testing tomorrow
[18:33:49] <Loetmichel> new one is ordered already
[18:34:09] <roh> yikes... just wondered.. an hour of somebody able to solder that should be worth more than a few cables
[18:34:31] <Loetmichel> this cable costs about 100 eurs from dell
[18:34:54] <roh> evil. propably not worth 10E in reality.
[18:36:49] <Loetmichel> but the problem isnt the money
[18:37:00] <Loetmichel> these notebooks cost about 6000 eur each
[18:37:11] <roh> ?!
[18:37:16] _Fox_Muldr is now known as Fox_Muldr
[18:37:22] <Loetmichel> so the 100 eur fault isnt rteally a big problem
[18:37:24] <roh> you said dell, not panasonic
[18:37:45] <roh> ;) just toying with you. good riddance....
[18:38:13] <Loetmichel> dell precision M6700 with 3 times 256GB ssd, biggest I7 aviable, quatto4000 graphics board, 32GB ram....
[18:38:34] * roh knows how annoying soldeirng ucky stuff can be.. especially when one knows its only a temporary hack till spareparts arrive
[18:38:47] <L84Supper> http://imagebin.org/257238 lets see how filled this space gets in 6 months
[18:39:01] <roh> nice one.. new shop?
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[18:39:31] <L84Supper> yeah, completely empty right now
[18:39:46] <roh> where is it?
[18:39:50] <L84Supper> not even electrical, just the sprinkler lines
[18:40:09] <L84Supper> China
[18:40:24] <Loetmichel> roh: and when we're done with it the price will have at least tripled ;-)
[18:40:25] <roh> heh. lots of work to do?
[18:40:34] <Loetmichel> (shielding against eavesdropping)
[18:41:14] <L84Supper> roh: nah just walls, electrical, plumbing, HVAC, machines, etc etc
[18:42:02] <L84Supper> it's government funded so nothing secret
[18:43:32] <L84Supper> mostly open source
[18:44:37] <L84Supper> they are happy to just have 10-30 yeah old tech in production
[18:44:43] <L84Supper> yeah/year
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[18:49:15] <L84Supper> whats really odd about factory space there is the lack of loading docs
[18:49:34] <L84Supper> and small doorways for really high and wide spaces
[18:54:30] <L84Supper> http://imagebin.org/257244 30 ft+ ceilings with an 8 ft door, it also common for a 4 x 6 ft door and small 6 x 8 ft elevator for a 10Ksq ft space
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[19:03:12] <ssi> spontaneous SFO trip next weekend
[19:03:13] <ssi> weeee
[19:15:58] <ssi> going for maker faire
[19:16:02] <ssi> I'm gonna see if I can get press passes
[19:16:12] <ssi> hack the hacker show
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[19:26:07] <GammaX> maker faire aint a hacker show lol
[19:26:16] <GammaX> shmoocon and defcon are
[19:26:29] <GammaX> ssi which maker faire btw?
[19:27:40] <ssi> SFO
[19:27:52] <L84Supper> hacker conferences are interesting, maker faire, not so much
[19:27:52] <ssi> and "hacker" means lots of different things
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[19:29:12] <ssi> anyone interested in writing a 2d cam package in scala with me? :P
[19:29:37] <GammaX> not by the genral population lol
[19:30:50] <ssi> since when is the general population right about anything?
[19:33:40] <GammaX> never but they will always beleive it!
[19:34:41] <LokiScarlet> Hacker - One who enjoys their job for its own sake, usually referring to a programmer or hardware modifier
[19:34:59] <ssi> LokiScarlet: that's a pretty good definition :)
[19:35:08] <ssi> but it doesn't necessarily need to be a job
[19:35:20] <LokiScarlet> I wanted to keep it short as I could
[19:35:31] <LokiScarlet> So I cut "or hobby" out of there along with other stuff
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[19:35:47] <ssi> my boss says it's not worth trying to get the press passes
[19:36:03] <ssi> they tend to ask for writing samples, they want stories filed too quickly, and it's just not worth the hassle
[19:37:04] <LokiScarlet> Heh. Want a press pass, eh? Could get yourself ordained. Press/clergy pass. Easy as the hells if you're in the USA
[19:37:34] <ssi> I work for CNN, so I have a way to get a press pass
[19:41:02] <GammaX> I dont believe you
[19:41:14] <GammaX> If you work for CNN how in the hell are you ALWAYS on here! lol
[19:41:18] <LokiScarlet> XD
[19:41:27] <LokiScarlet> Cause they don't do s### there?
[19:41:41] <LokiScarlet> (Yes I know, I am an awful person)
[19:44:35] <GammaX> Im just kiddin ssi I love you!
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[19:54:25] <generic_nick|2> how fruity
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[20:02:40] <PetefromTn> ...
[20:04:04] <generic_nick|2> ....
[20:04:12] <generic_nick|2> agreed
[20:05:12] <PetefromTn> yup sums it up....
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[20:09:16] <generic_nick|2> machines are moved. horray! just need to put a plug on the lathe's power cable and clean/arrange the rest of the shop. it does look like i can get my jeep in there if need be now!
[20:10:11] <generic_nick|2> i'm thinking of hanging a rail and have some shower curtains that i can pull around the machines to hide them from view when i have my garage door open
[20:13:56] <PetefromTn> I thought about that but my machine is so damn heavy I doubt seriously anyone is gonna steal it when I am not looking LOL.... Besides I sleep less than ten feet from it. Armed.
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[20:21:54] <GammaX> just got off the phone with analiam...
[20:21:58] <GammaX> anilam*
[20:22:04] <PetefromTn> why?
[20:22:13] <GammaX> I have a crusader II on my hardinge!
[20:22:21] <PetefromTn> ah
[20:22:32] <GammaX> he sent me schematics for the entire controller.
[20:22:41] <GammaX> need to figure out how to set a speed in the controller.
[20:22:54] <GammaX> and see if it works based off not having a 150$ linear potentiometer...
[20:23:01] -!- micges [micges!~micges@ego80.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #linuxcnc
[20:24:12] <GammaX> diagrams from the 80's are not what they should be!
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[20:28:36] <PetefromTn> they never are...
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[20:29:33] <GammaX> but on a good note.... I might be able to have this anilam controller going during the day and with the schmatics, start converting it to linuxcnc at night!
[20:30:04] <GammaX> just need to find the same military style connectors...
[20:32:21] <PetefromTn> sounds good... what model hardinge?
[20:32:46] <GammaX> hardinge hc
[20:33:08] <PetefromTn> sweet...
[20:33:18] <GammaX> Just picked up pneumatic closer for it. 2 actually... one for 160 and one for 60... ones not working though apparently. gonna try to fix it.
[20:33:32] <ssi> GammaX: because I IRC from work
[20:33:37] <ssi> which I am now home
[20:33:41] <ssi> the interim during which I commuted :)
[20:34:12] <GammaX> ssi your addicted!
[20:34:33] <ssi> I just can't stand to be away from you
[20:35:00] <GammaX> dude... I feel the same way! Haha
[20:35:23] <GammaX> You ever get to work on your machines yet instead of talkin about them? ( Not a dig I promise )
[20:35:25] <LokiScarlet> ... I should change my name to Loki Takei or something. Cause this'll be the fifteenth time today I've had to say
[20:35:28] <LokiScarlet> Oh my~~~~~~~~~
[20:35:35] <ssi> I work on them all the time
[20:35:53] <ssi> I can IRC from my linuxcnc boxes too :)
[20:36:10] <GammaX> and also btw... got that 4" thick piece of granite with stand for 40 bucks!
[20:36:13] <LokiScarlet> Multiuser screen session?
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[20:36:21] <ssi> screen -dr
[20:36:44] <LokiScarlet> That reminds me, I should start screen'ing my irssi
[20:36:48] <ssi> yep
[20:37:02] <GammaX> ssi screen -dr?
[20:37:05] <GammaX> what is that
[20:37:10] <ssi> deep unix hax
[20:37:30] <LokiScarlet> Even obsidian cannot maintain that edge of yours, ssi
[20:37:40] <GammaX> lol
[20:38:04] <ssi> inorite
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[20:41:31] <ssi> I have so much to do, but I feel like I should nap
[20:42:52] <FredrikHson1> ....... i hate my machine right now all of the sudden it jumped like 5mm in x
[20:43:04] <ssi> oonoes
[20:45:00] <PetefromTn> that sucks....hate that kinda stuff.
[20:45:52] <FredrikHson1> its not the first time either
[20:46:03] <PetefromTn> steppers?
[20:46:36] <FredrikHson1> yeah...
[20:47:02] <FredrikHson1> it should handle those kinds of speeds just fine and i even ran the program once just before with no problems
[20:51:38] <FredrikHson1> https://www.dropbox.com/s/5minmals39kzamf/DSC01090.JPG all wasted time and nothing with that machine has gone right today
[20:52:53] <PetefromTn> bummer man. I guess that was the roughing pass then?
[20:53:36] <FredrikHson1> yeah
[20:54:09] <FredrikHson1> hmm might be able to salvage it by lowering it a few mm and redoing the roughing pass
[20:55:07] <FredrikHson1> but not today its way to late and i am 100% sure it would just go wrong since everything else has done that today from what it seems
[20:55:07] <DJ9DJ> gn8
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[20:55:59] <PetefromTn> I hear ya sometimes you need to just step away from it for awhile..
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[20:57:22] <PetefromTn> I am trying to wrap my head around the best way to setup my newly working Cincinatti Arrow 500 retrofit with my Sheetcam software so that at the end of the program it will center up my table and bring it towards the operator for parts change. Not sure if I want to change the post processor for that or not just yet.
[20:57:57] <JT-Shop> G28 G30
[20:58:01] <JT-Shop> or
[20:58:09] <PetefromTn> Is that a five axis or actually why is the part atop that round piece?
[20:59:25] <PetefromTn> On my last machine I NEVER used G54 etc fixture offsets and I want to be able to understand them on the VMC because I plan to have two vises on there most of the time. I also want to get it setup so that WHEN the toolchanger works I can transition smoothly into using it with my post and not have to redo everything..
[21:00:16] <JT-Shop> http://gnipsel.com/linuxcnc/g-code/index.html
[21:01:10] <PetefromTn> RTFB!!
[21:02:19] <JT-Shop> you can change say from G54 to G55 and run the same code with different fixture offsets (second vise etc)
[21:02:56] <PetefromTn> yeah I know that but don't understand HOW..
[21:02:59] <JT-Shop> I (almost) always set my G54 offset to left rear top for 0
[21:03:15] <PetefromTn> yeah me too the vise corner generally.
[21:03:57] <JT-Shop> I set it to the material so 0 is the same on every part
[21:04:22] <JT-Shop> did you read the link?
[21:04:37] <JT-Shop> a tutorial on fixture offsets
[21:05:39] <PetefromTn> I am starting to...
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[21:10:07] <FredrikHson1> hmm what would be the best way to rezero this just pick a line in the gcode and navigate to that spot + setting that there or some other idea?
[21:10:53] <GammaX> I think im going to mak my foot pegs that I broke... http://www.ebay.com/itm/Silver-Billet-Front-Adjustable-Foot-Pegs-Buell-Lightning-XB9S-XB12S-CityX-XB9SX-/400344063628?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&fits=Make%3ABuell&hash=item5d365d9e8c&vxp=mtr
[21:10:57] <GammaX> what you guys think?
[21:12:08] <PetefromTn> get it done man and post pics...
[21:12:24] <GammaX> shouldnt be hard...
[21:12:26] <GammaX> I hope lol
[21:12:39] <lomach> Hi Petefromtn its lee
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[21:12:57] <PetefromTn> HEY LEE!! Whazzup man?
[21:13:25] <JT-Shop> bbl
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[21:13:41] <PetefromTn> cya
[21:13:44] <lomach> All good. Probably shouldnt just chat on here but hows the cinci
[21:14:04] <PetefromTn> why shouldn't you just chat?
[21:14:46] <lomach> I thought this was just for questions and helping. Only been on here once before
[21:15:01] <cradek> nah, we'd have to get rid of Jymmm then
[21:15:24] <PetefromTn> well yeah generally but from what I have seen people talk about whatever and TRY to keep it CNC related.
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[21:15:40] <PetefromTn> The Cincinatti is actually doing quite well now.
[21:15:58] <lomach> I will be on here more often then. Are you making chips yet
[21:16:13] <PetefromTn> I managed to get the damn coolant troughs tig welded, epoxied, and then painted with Industrial Epoxy paint.
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[21:16:27] * Jymmm smack cradek with a BP!!!
[21:17:02] <PetefromTn> I managed to get the Z axis setup with a braking resistor to help with that huge uncounterweighted millhead and it works great. I can see 500 IPM+ if I want.
[21:17:11] <PetefromTn> Kinda scary really.
[21:17:26] <PetefromTn> I also got the coolant setup and working with the VFD and it is powerful.
[21:18:02] <PetefromTn> Then as of yesterday I managed to get Mike Kilroy to help me sort out the Hitachi VFD settings so that my spindle pulls to redline without issue.
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[21:18:38] <PetefromTn> Yesterday evening I machined my first Programmed chips. It was a very simple circular pocket interpolation that was 2" diameter
[21:19:04] <PetefromTn> It cut it perfectly and I used a .010 finish pass in SHeetcam and the finish was beautiful.
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[21:19:30] <PetefromTn> I measured the hole with my best telescoping gauges and my best micrometers and it was 2.0001!!
[21:19:43] <PetefromTn> It seems to be working great so far and I am very pleased.
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[21:20:11] <PetefromTn> RIght now I am trying to decide on the best way to mount the spindle encoder so I can use the rigid tap and start working on the toolchange option.
[21:20:19] <PetefromTn> Hows your sweet machine running?
[21:20:42] <GammaX> PetefromTn how hard you think it would be to make that peg?
[21:20:43] <PetefromTn> I would love to have one of those nice tool touch of gauges you showed me you made...
[21:21:12] <PetefromTn> Honestly not too bad really. Make the mount in your mill and then turn the peg on your lathe with a clamp gnurl..
[21:21:31] <lomach> Thats awesome pete. I have got a job for mine that i will be setting up that i will send you some pics of as its very complex. Its been running every day for the last month
[21:21:32] <GammaX> well i was thinking more of something like these... ALso I need a passenger peg aswell.
[21:21:41] <GammaX> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Knight-Design-Buell-S1-S2-S3-M2-X1-Foot-Peg-2-Drop-Footpeg-Black-QT-/200922542996?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2ec7eab394&vxp=mtr
[21:21:52] <PetefromTn> KNURL...sorry
[21:22:32] <skunkworks> PetefromTn: you also need to get a renishaw style probe also... I don't know how I lived without one...
[21:22:44] <PetefromTn> Lee it is so nice to hear you have work for that machine. That is a dream of mine to be able to make some good money using this monster I built.
[21:23:08] <GammaX> PetefromTn which machine?
[21:23:21] <PetefromTn> skunkworks: yeah man Lee actually has one on his Cincinatti. It is awesome and I have used them on the Haas machines where I used to work. They are PRICEY tho...
[21:23:46] <PetefromTn> GammaX: Those are mill items methinks...
[21:23:54] <skunkworks> PetefromTn: keep an eye on ebay... My dad got one for <$50
[21:24:03] <lomach> I second that skunkworks. Renishaw is awesome stuff. Im really busy at the minute so all good. So scared the machine will break down but its no different to anything else
[21:24:07] <skunkworks> (knock off but works great)
[21:24:21] <PetefromTn> Is that a offroad bike?
[21:24:40] <skunkworks> lomach: but you converted it - so you can fix it :)
[21:24:41] <PetefromTn> skunkworks: yeah would love a deal like that. Right now I am trying to find the coin for some cheap vises.
[21:25:21] <GammaX> PetefromTn can be
[21:25:48] <PetefromTn> skunkworks: That is really the best part of this whole thing. The other day I THOUGHT I might have blown my Z axis drive but even had I blown it I would only be out maybe $3-400.00. The original ones were well over a grand and I could not troubleshoot them very well without fear of blowing somehting else
[21:26:01] <lomach> Skunkworks: I know but when you take on serious work the pressure is on.
[21:26:38] <generic_nick|2> i replaced pretty much everything on my mill with stuff i can get next day if needed
[21:26:51] <PetefromTn> Hell when is it NOT on really. I always said that there are plenty of local shops that I could pass the work off to if it got real bad but I would just lose the cash...
[21:27:07] <generic_nick|2> my friend probably has 30-40 of the drives i use on the mill just sitting in a box.
[21:27:07] <PetefromTn> Yeah me too so far. With the exception of the spindle motor.
[21:27:40] <generic_nick|2> never had a spindle motor go bad unless it was wired wrong (i got a bridgeport that way for cheap)
[21:27:42] <lomach> I will have to post some of my work soon. Been lurking in the background too much
[21:27:47] <PetefromTn> It is comforting to know you can get replacements, even if they are not the exact ones you used originally there are plenty of options...
[21:28:00] <generic_nick|2> yep
[21:28:24] <PetefromTn> Yeah you do man... That is one sweet machine you built and after all that work it should be shown as well as what you make on it.
[21:28:29] <generic_nick|2> the drives i have are just for typical dc brushed motors with a tach
[21:28:43] <PetefromTn> My machine is all AC servo now..
[21:29:09] <PetefromTn> Gotta find some appropriate grease for the linear guideways...
[21:29:15] <generic_nick|2> nice. i had ac brushless, but swapped them out because the motors and drives were pretty odd. all digital with resolvers.
[21:29:44] <generic_nick|2> sweet, grease is the way to go. keeps the coolant from stinking like with way lubed machines
[21:30:10] <PetefromTn> Yeah mine were AC brushless with resolvers, yanked everything out and got newer stuff.
[21:30:19] <generic_nick|2> nice.
[21:30:42] <PetefromTn> Yup that is how this machine was designed. All linear with rather large trucks and guides greased with zerks.
[21:30:52] <generic_nick|2> resolvers are good, but my motors didnt have any hal sensors or anything so i couldnt use normal ac drives
[21:31:20] <PetefromTn> GammaX: I liked the first ones better I think...
[21:31:54] <generic_nick|2> PetefromTn: i ran a mitsubishi mill for a while which was all grease. it was the only mill i've ever run that didnt have stinky coolant.
[21:32:00] <generic_nick|2> the coolant lasted much longer
[21:32:02] <PetefromTn> Pretty happy with my TECO's so far...
[21:32:12] <PetefromTn> That is what I hope will be my results.
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[21:32:21] <generic_nick|2> it will.
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[21:32:31] <lomach> Pete just a thought but have you ever considered putting a larger pulley on the spindle to give a 1:1 drive
[21:32:50] <generic_nick|2> the wa oil floats on the coolant, keeping oxygen from getting in there, which lets bacteria grow
[21:32:55] <PetefromTn> So far I bought a dual outlet aquarium pump to feed both coolant troughs.
[21:33:28] <generic_nick|2> to use as a coolant pump?
[21:33:29] <PetefromTn> lomach: no not really. Not sure the bearings would agree with it and you would lose torque...
[21:33:47] <PetefromTn> generic_nick|2: no just to aerate the coolant.
[21:34:00] <generic_nick|2> you shouldnt have to with your setup
[21:34:03] <PetefromTn> You would gain some serious speed tho.....
[21:34:11] <Connor> PetefromTn: What are you using the aquarium pump for ?
[21:34:12] <PetefromTn> why do you say that
[21:34:31] <PetefromTn> to aerate the coolant when it is not being used...
[21:34:38] <generic_nick|2> without the way oil it can breathe
[21:34:43] <lomach> I wouldnt increase the top speed just to increase acceleration. I machine 95% aluminium and dont need the torque
[21:34:47] <Connor> Ahh.
[21:34:50] <generic_nick|2> unless you let it sit for a long period of time, you wont need it
[21:35:11] <PetefromTn> Well hopefully it won't sit much at all if I can find some paying customers LOL...
[21:35:16] <generic_nick|2> with 2:1, i bet he has awesome acceleration
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[21:35:41] <PetefromTn> lomach: what is wrong with your accelleration?
[21:35:52] <PetefromTn> What VFD did you end up with?
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[21:36:45] <PetefromTn> generic_nick|2: Yeah I know i had way oil on my RF45 and it did managed to float on top of the coolant and lock out air
[21:36:47] <lomach> I guess nothing really it was just an idea. That motor running at 12k is fairly noisy although there is nothing wrong with it.
[21:37:16] <lomach> I just cant hear the radio. lol
[21:38:00] <generic_nick|2> that is fast
[21:38:13] <generic_nick|2> i'd almost go with a slower rpm motor and go 1:1
[21:38:18] <generic_nick|2> thats what i did
[21:38:24] <lomach> its a 5.5kw motor at 12k
[21:38:29] <PetefromTn> lomach: Ya know my spindle is quite loud too... Altho I do have a belt problem tho one of them is looser than the other one....
[21:39:07] <PetefromTn> Honestly I would LOVE a 10k spindle LOL...
[21:39:18] <PetefromTn> Just not sure how long the bearings would last...
[21:39:20] <lomach> i replaced my belts a couple of months ago
[21:39:33] <generic_nick|2> i had a 50/50 shot at getting the phasing right on the plug i wired for my lathe to have my spindle running the right way. i got it right the first time, that almost never happens!
[21:39:38] <GammaX> might be getting a complete kennedy tool stack for about 350...
[21:39:42] <GammaX> sounds like agood deal?
[21:39:51] <generic_nick|2> decent if it's in good shape
[21:40:07] <generic_nick|2> ive gotten them for much cheaper, but they were older.
[21:40:14] <GammaX> looks like great shape. also top boxes come with misc. machinist tools, angle irons/vblocks/verniers, end mills etc
[21:40:26] <generic_nick|2> oh good deal then
[21:40:30] <lomach> I was not going to run the spndle faster than the standard 6k as would change the top speed. Just the motor would run at half speed than now
[21:41:16] <generic_nick|2> how big is the top box? how many drawers?
[21:41:22] <GammaX> generic_nick|2 this is a 3 stack, roller 6 shelf middle 2 drawer and upper 11 drawer
[21:41:42] <generic_nick|2> no drawers in the roller?
[21:41:55] <GammaX> rolloer has 6 shelf
[21:42:06] <generic_nick|2> never seen one with just shelves
[21:42:26] <generic_nick|2> definitely a kennedy?
[21:43:02] <GammaX> well there is the lower cabit area
[21:43:07] <GammaX> http://cosprings.craigslist.org/tld/3793108895.html
[21:43:27] <generic_nick|2> one of my rollers has 3 drawers and a big open bottom section, the other roller has 5 drawers and a big open bottom section
[21:43:56] <generic_nick|2> oh those are drawers
[21:44:25] <GammaX> said he can do 200 out the door, if I trade anything it would be for pennies....
[21:44:46] <generic_nick|2> decent deal
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[21:44:56] <generic_nick|2> looks nice
[21:44:57] <GammaX> anyone know the worth of a ar15 a2 style upperwith barrel>
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[21:55:03] <Jymmm> $2. $4 if you have the lower too
[22:00:12] <GammaX> Jymmm those are some bad figures lol
[22:00:52] <Jymmm> Ok fine, I'll pay you $10, final offer
[22:01:04] <Jymmm> must include loweer though =)
[22:01:31] <GammaX> lol
[22:01:34] <GammaX> neg
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[22:02:41] <GammaX> http://fortcollins.craigslist.org/tls/3731759370.html 40 bucks!
[22:03:51] <PetefromTn> lomach hey man ya still there?
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[22:05:11] <PetefromTn> Just had a visist from a customer who brought me some steel tubing he needs machined and I managed to sell him my old 4x6 bandsaw with a blown motor for $100.00 so maybe now I can buy a vise....
[22:06:06] <PetefromTn> He has some customers he said might be able to bring me some work hopefully too.... crosses fingers.
[22:09:17] <GammaX> pete what kinda vise u gonna get?
[22:10:31] <PetefromTn> honestly something cheap at first since I am kinda broke after this retrofit and the lack of work lately.
[22:10:46] <PetefromTn> Most likely a six inch CNC vise from Shars or similar...
[22:11:34] <rob_h> sometimes ithink the machine is the cheap part, its everything that goes with it :)
[22:12:03] <PetefromTn> yeah man it sure is.
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[22:12:57] <PetefromTn> I honestly had a REAL cheap kurt clone vise for my RF45 for years of use without issue. I ALWAYS use sacrificial jaws homebuilt so the accuracy of the vise is generally not an issue. The clamping force however is..
[22:17:05] <rob_h> Hydrolic vices are nice in 6" but always a pain to lift on and off the machines
[22:18:01] <ssi> need a shop crane :)
[22:18:42] <rob_h> or a pallet machine much easyer and quicker
[22:18:59] <ssi> yaaa
[22:19:18] <generic_nick|2> PetefromTn: you cant find any on cl?
[22:19:29] <generic_nick|2> i got a few on there
[22:19:59] <generic_nick|2> for dirt cheap. you'll want a real kurt or at least a decent knockoff
[22:20:15] <PetefromTn> whaddya mean D?
[22:20:36] <generic_nick|2> a vice
[22:20:50] <PetefromTn> yeah I know whaddya mean can't find any on d?
[22:21:11] <generic_nick|2> that's not a d
[22:21:12] <PetefromTn> whatya got?
[22:21:22] <generic_nick|2> it says cl as in craigslist
[22:21:33] <generic_nick|2> c l
[22:21:33] <PetefromTn> ROFL...sorry
[22:21:59] <generic_nick|2> ssi: i think your suggestion of cleaning the brushes on the tach on my lathe may have worked.
[22:22:03] <PetefromTn> yeah I am using searchtempest but most are either far away or overpriced
[22:22:13] <generic_nick|2> so far no roughness or ferrors
[22:22:25] <generic_nick|2> but it was intermittent so we will see
[22:22:43] <generic_nick|2> 50-100 is fair for a well used kurt IMO
[22:22:50] <PetefromTn> anybody want to buy this original spindle motor resolver I don't need anymore?
[22:23:10] <Connor> andypugh: probably would like to have it. :)
[22:23:10] <PetefromTn> YEAH MAN!! lemme know when you find used kurts for that....
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[22:23:38] <PetefromTn> Connor: sup dude....
[22:24:06] <Connor> Head to the couch to crash and watch the news.
[22:24:15] <r00t4rd3d> boring
[22:24:26] <PetefromTn> just rented a bunch of redbox's and doing the same...
[22:24:35] <PetefromTn> got tons of candy tho...
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[22:25:44] <generic_nick|2> im not allowed to buy candy since i own a van. it puts me on some sort of watch list
[22:26:21] <PetefromTn> ROFL I drive a white Astro...love it.
[22:27:07] <generic_nick|2> i have a white windowless chevy g20
[22:27:10] <PetefromTn> Okay dinners on....be back later...
[22:27:28] <generic_nick|2> adios
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[22:31:47] <gammax-Lzaptop> generic_nick|2, looks like the combo might wind up costing me 385. still good deal?
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[22:32:19] <generic_nick|2> if its all in similar condition and comes with some decent tools, yes
[22:32:27] <gammax-Laptop1> ye4ah it is
[22:32:38] <generic_nick|2> price out the box new, im sure it's more than double that
[22:33:02] <generic_nick|2> i think my little 7 drawer top section was about 140 new 16 years ago
[22:33:05] <generic_nick|2> on sale
[22:33:14] <gammax-Laptop1> http://cosprings.craigslist.org/tls/3787002799.html
[22:33:18] <gammax-Laptop1> thats the top sections
[22:37:10] <generic_nick|2> good deal it looks like
[22:38:35] <generic_nick|2> jump on it
[22:38:52] <generic_nick|2> nicer than my box, thats for sure
[22:39:09] <generic_nick|2> ok off to get food.
[22:39:11] <generic_nick|2> adios
[22:40:19] <gammax-Laptop1> later nick
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[23:00:20] <PetefromTn> kay back...
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[23:10:11] <PetefromTn> CNC taig for sale....http://huntsville.craigslist.org/app/3791839764.html
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[23:38:30] <r00t4rd3d> http://imgur.com/a/zbxiZ
[23:38:41] <r00t4rd3d> dude put a hot water shower on his jeep
[23:38:47] <Connor> $450.00 for a 9 x 20 a good price ?
[23:39:41] <r00t4rd3d> 9x20 what
[23:39:56] <Connor> lathe.
[23:39:57] <Connor> sorry.
[23:40:18] <Connor> 9x20 Central Machinery Lathe..
[23:40:19] <r00t4rd3d> is it brand named?
[23:40:54] <r00t4rd3d> http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/52399-is-450-for-a-CM-9x20-lathe-a-good-deal
[23:40:56] <r00t4rd3d> wtf
[23:41:28] <r00t4rd3d> CL scam sounds like :)
[23:41:56] <Connor> Pickup only.. those aren't normally scams..
[23:41:58] <r00t4rd3d> or you asked the same question a year ago
[23:42:22] <Connor> Or, they could have found that thread and decided that was a good price..
[23:42:45] <r00t4rd3d> in that same thread "That is a $100 machine if youre midwest-northeast IMHO."
[23:44:11] <Connor> Used it strictly on wood..
[23:44:21] <Connor> I have a 9 by 20 gear head lathe with stand and extra Brits and gears. I used it to make parts for cues not on metal . Had power feed and is a little work horse. I'm asking $450 for This item and that's a 1/3 of the coat new. Lathe is dead on accurate within .05 so should make for a great addition to any shop. MUST PICK UP YOURSELF...... I will not ship ! It's just too heavy
[23:47:07] <PetefromTn> hang on a sec while I look at it..
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[23:50:03] <PetefromTn> Looks well used but not terrible I guess. If he used it for wood there is probably gonna be a lot of gummy cleanup required but that is also an indication of generally light use too. Id offer him less and see what he says if you want it....I have also heard their compound is kinda weak but there are fixes for it online with instructions..
[23:50:40] <PetefromTn> Looks like it has a carriage stop and a decent live center, does it come with the tooling?
[23:51:14] <Connor> Doesn't say.. just the part about Extra Bits and gears.
[23:51:25] <Connor> It's a MT2 tails tock.. same as my 7x10
[23:51:41] <Connor> So, I have a live center 2 drill chucks.
[23:51:56] <PetefromTn> yeah...Do these have power crossfeed?
[23:52:01] <Connor> and I have a QCTP for my 7x10 too.. I think it might work on that one too.
[23:52:29] <jdh> never giving it back?
[23:52:39] <PetefromTn> probably would might need a lift block or something...
[23:52:42] <Connor> jdh: Giving what back ?
[23:52:53] <jdh> I thought you were borrowing the 7x?
[23:52:56] <PetefromTn> are you just gonna replace your mini?
[23:53:03] <Connor> It was "given" to me.
[23:53:12] <Connor> for as long as I wanted it..
[23:53:14] <PetefromTn> cool then GIVE it to me LOL
[23:53:46] <Connor> No, I'm thinking about changing the headstock on the mini to use a 5C, and turning that into a 4th axis.
[23:53:48] <PetefromTn> I sold my little 4x6 bandsaw today...
[23:54:10] <PetefromTn> I was just kidding, don't need it when I got the 12x36 LOL
[23:54:29] <jdh> I like my little 4x6
[23:54:44] <PetefromTn> Gonna miss that little bastard tho but i need a vise more and I have the 7x12 here now...with flood coolant
[23:55:21] <PetefromTn> I musta made a thousand cuts on that little saw...
[23:55:25] <Connor> Doesn't look like it has a powered cross feed..
[23:55:37] <PetefromTn> you plannin on CNC'ing it?
[23:55:47] <ds3> which QCTP do people use for the 7x10?
[23:56:01] <Connor> Not really... I mean.. I could.. but..
[23:56:09] <Connor> need to finish the damn mill first.
[23:56:09] <Connor> rofl
[23:56:16] <PetefromTn> then not having that power crossfeed is gonna be a bummer
[23:56:34] <PetefromTn> I know I use mine all the time...
[23:56:59] <Connor> http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=3112&category=-419988835
[23:57:09] <Connor> ds3: is the one I got for my 7x10
[23:57:42] <PetefromTn> that actually looks pretty well made...
[23:57:50] <jdh> I have a HF one on mine
[23:57:54] <Connor> It's steel vs the others that are alumn.
[23:58:32] <PetefromTn> cool...
[23:59:06] <ds3> Conner: does that feel too big on that lathe?
[23:59:22] <Connor> No, It's correct size for it.
[23:59:55] <Connor> It's designed for the "4th" axis Tormach lathe.. which is a 7x12
[23:59:57] <ds3> know if those tool holders will interchange with the aluminum ones by A-Z?