#linuxcnc | Logs for 2013-04-14

[00:02:18] <just> what size hard drive will I need, I have some old 2GB needing use. Can this all be installed and live on a flash drive, or would i expect latency problems?
[00:03:22] <AR_> you should install on a hard disk
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[00:03:41] <AR_> 2gb might just be enough to start
[00:04:01] <andypugh> a 4GB ssd works, I think 2GB would be too small.
[00:04:25] <andypugh> But then the LiveCD is less than 2GB, by definition.
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[00:06:56] <just> drives are cheap and I've spent plenty on this machine. No need to cheap-out now, I'll find something bigger, but now I know it would barely fit, so I now have a guide line. Thanks. Be back later...
[00:07:42] <andypugh> just: You can try out Linux and LinuxCNC just from the LiveCD without making any changes to the PC at all.
[00:08:44] <just> will the above link discuss that as well??
[00:09:07] <andypugh> Yes
[00:09:27] <just> thank you.
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[00:17:49] <fomox> anyone here that are pro at configuring medium sized networks (90-150 clients)? :P
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[01:16:36] <PetefromTn> Good evening fellas...
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[01:17:15] <andypugh> Is your re-appearnce good or or bad?
[01:20:44] <FinboySlick> fomox: I have 3800 clients ;)
[01:21:04] <FinboySlick> fomox: What are you looking for?
[01:21:09] <Connor> PetefromTn: Home safe and sound.
[01:21:35] <PetefromTn> Hey connor!! Andy are you talking to me?
[01:22:16] <fomox> FinboySlick: ah nice :D
[01:22:19] <fomox> mind if I send you a pm?
[01:22:28] <FinboySlick> Sure.
[01:23:32] <Connor> PetefromTn: The Tool change motor.. If it's a AC motor... I think it's going only spin one way..
[01:24:08] <Connor> So, it might be a 24v motor...
[01:24:26] <PetefromTn> Why would it not spin both ways? It certainly did before...
[01:25:06] <Connor> AC motors (Single Phase) tend to only spin in one direction...
[01:25:50] <Connor> So, If it spins in both.. it might be DC.. or has some sort of direction gear change mechanism.
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[01:33:12] <PetefromTn> Doubt it but we will see. I will take the cover off it tomorrow and investigate it. I am so amazed that we are actually onto toolchanger goodies now. We have really been kicking ass....
[01:34:03] <andypugh> If it is a 3-phase motor it will happily spin either way.
[01:34:49] <andypugh> Given that it is a 3-phase machine, it would be very unlikel that a single-phase motor would be fitted.
[01:34:54] <Connor> Need to figure out the sserial error..
[01:35:04] <Connor> I hope it's not the length of the Db25 cable..
[01:35:25] <Jymmm> how long is it?
[01:35:44] <Connor> PetefromTn: How long is it? 10' ?
[01:37:10] <Connor> It's happening with the spindle start/stop mostly.
[01:39:11] <PetefromTn> Yup 10'
[01:39:22] <Connor> pcw_home: on thing is to make sure you are not returning the field I/O GND to 7I77 logic/Analog/5V gnd
[01:39:31] <Connor> I have questions about that..
[01:40:16] <Connor> I think ALL the GND's are tied together..
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[01:47:06] <PetefromTn> Yeah so far there is only one ground point for everything. Always thought that was the way to go...
[01:48:19] <Connor> Yea. I'm not sure. We need to talk to pcw_home a little more about that..
[01:49:46] <PetefromTn> Sure doo.
[01:50:37] <Connor> And of course, the encoder errors when we start linuxcnc up.
[01:52:39] <PetefromTn> Im sure they are all related to a grounding issue. Everything is working really well otherwise. I am so pleased with our progress so far. The machine is doing what it did when it actually worked under the original control with the obvious exception of what we have not gotten to yet. Really cool...
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[01:55:10] <andypugh> In an ideal world logic ground and power ground would be different. But it is generally the case that at least one device in the system makes that impossible.
[01:56:24] <Connor> I think the VFD has the analog gnd tied to the logic gnd.
[01:56:32] <Connor> for CW/CCW
[01:57:44] <pcw_home> Both of these errors indicate that either enough HF ground current is
[01:57:46] <pcw_home> flowing down the DB5 cable to generate a 1V or so drop along its length
[01:57:47] <pcw_home> Or perhaps there is power routed along the same path as the DB25 cable
[01:58:11] <pcw_home> (both meaning encoder error and sserial error)
[01:58:25] <pcw_home> DB25
[01:58:40] <Connor> We do have a 110v line running down the same channel as the DB25..
[01:58:43] <andypugh> Are there any problems with the spindle and coolant VFDs unpowered?
[01:58:56] <Connor> not with the sserial error.
[01:59:16] <Connor> we do see the encoder errors though.
[01:59:22] <pcw_home> they are the same basically
[01:59:23] <andypugh> Is the power wire shielded?
[01:59:36] <Connor> the 110v? no.
[01:59:50] <Connor> It's the power for the PC and monitor.
[02:00:28] <pcw_home> did you see any errors before you connected the spindle drive?
[02:00:30] <Connor> PetefromTn: You could try running the PC and monitor from that extension cord.. and see if you get errors I guess.
[02:00:39] <Connor> just the encoder errors
[02:00:52] <Connor> and that's always at start up.. or drive enable
[02:01:06] <andypugh> VFDs put nasty spikes in the power. So, I would suggest a filter for the VFDs (they may be able to share) and running the power in shielded cable. (I like the SY stuff: http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/MF1dot5slash3.html )
[02:01:09] <Connor> well.. not always.. but that's the ONLY time it happens
[02:01:28] <PetefromTn> yeah we had it that way for awhile today already...
[02:01:49] <Connor> PetefromTn: But, not with the machine itself running.. so no idea if it fixes the issue..
[02:02:11] <PetefromTn> I don't remember...
[02:02:14] <andypugh> Filters are pretty cheap: http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0&_nkw=rasmi&_sacat=0&_from=R40
[02:02:43] <Connor> Yea, I didn't have access to the mesa pins because the 24v supply was off..
[02:02:44] <PetefromTn> The power FROM the drive to the motor is the original cable and basically goes from the VFD right out to the motor pretty quick.
[02:03:09] <PetefromTn> The wires going to the drive are coming in from the disconnect and are not shielded....
[02:03:22] <andypugh> (Just realised that specifically searching for a UK manufacturer of filters on eBay US might not be the best idea)
[02:03:53] <PetefromTn> LOL....
[02:04:04] <PetefromTn> Connor: yeah you're right man
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[02:05:02] <Connor> So, that's one thing to try.. If that fixes it.. then we need to shield the power cable.. or router it some other way.
[02:05:17] <Connor> route it.. not router it.. grumble..
[02:05:33] <PetefromTn> yup tomorrow...
[02:05:52] <Connor> Yup. Doctor Who time.
[02:06:09] <PetefromTn> I thought it was at 8?
[02:06:16] <pcw_home> I would try the alternate PC power source routing first
[02:06:19] <Connor> It was. but, I have it DVR'd
[02:06:57] <PetefromTn> Isn't the cable shielded between the boards?
[02:07:17] <pcw_home> Yes
[02:07:23] <Connor> But, may not be enough.
[02:07:46] <Connor> that's 6' of travel running parallel to the cable.
[02:08:17] <PetefromTn> Honestly I dunno about the noise issues, but what about that parameter you set initially that helped with the Atom board >>>
[02:08:23] <pcw_home> Shielding does not help if there is a ground loop and also doesn't help much with inductive coupling
[02:08:30] <Connor> you may even want to disconnect it from the outlet and pull the wire out.. because even having it there not in use could cause issues.
[02:09:08] <andypugh> I have only watched one of the new Dr Who series (and by "new" I mean the ones made in the last 10 years). Oddly if you asked me if I was a fan I would probably say I was.
[02:09:10] <Connor> Oh, that was the Servo thready Hz. and made sure all the power save crap was off.
[02:09:24] <PetefromTn> Dunno how there could be a ground loop basically everything is going to the same ground buss...
[02:09:33] <pcw_home> I think you will have to experiment to find the cause
[02:10:14] <PetefromTn> Maybe we should up that number a bit more?
[02:10:31] <Connor> No. 1 Million is the highest you want.
[02:10:52] <pcw_home> That wont help with these errors (only real time errors)
[02:11:09] <PetefromTn> Definitely willing to experiment here and also willing to buy the line filter because the VFD manual actually recommends that. Not sure where to put it or how but I will find a way...
[02:11:15] <Connor> Yea, were not getting RT errors anymore.
[02:11:31] <PetefromTn> Well we actuall did get some real time errors but only occasionally no?
[02:11:40] <andypugh> All my problems went away when I added the VFD filter. As a bad scientist, though, I also put a common-mode choke on the VFD outputs, and made the signal pins which had problems into current loops (by moving the pull-ups to the 7i43 end, rather than the switch end). So I can't say which one worked.
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[02:11:54] <Connor> correct, but that's because I was doing other stuff like using a web browser.. or switching between windows etc.
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[02:12:44] <andypugh> You should be able to do those things without RT over-runs. Are you running a base thread? (don't)
[02:12:45] <PetefromTn> Oh alright. The filter is a cheap option and could work really well to stifle noise. How did you install yours Andy?
[02:12:57] <Connor> andypugh: No.
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[02:13:36] <andypugh> There is only one way to install them, they go next to the VFD, on the input power wires.
[02:13:59] <PetefromTn> Chokes on the outputs is also another easy option. With the size of this VFD and derating it who knows how much noise we are actually seeing.
[02:15:00] <PetefromTn> Okay I will order one but I need to figure out what the specs need to be for it. The WJ200 is spec'd for three phase so I guess basically double the numbers?
[02:16:48] <pcw_home> Also check if the low side analog inputs on the servo drives and VFD are grounded (its better if they are not and and have differential inputs)
[02:16:50] <pcw_home> if the low side analog inputs _are_ grounded a common mode choke or small value series resistors in th analog leads can also eliminate ground currents
[02:16:56] <andypugh> Possibly not. Maybe ask your supplier?
[02:17:49] <pcw_home> (only high frequency ground currents from drives/VFDs are troublesome)
[02:18:08] <andypugh> I like this style of V-block. (you can hold them in a vice) But it seems I am not the only one, hence the price.
[02:18:09] <andypugh> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bilton-V-Block-Vee-block-with-clamp-and-mount-fixture-for-HRT-160-Haas-/121092829809
[02:18:27] <PetefromTn> The Analog inputs as with all the inputs are only grounded with the shielding on the Mesa side as per the manual...
[02:19:36] <andypugh> The new-price is just frightening: http://www.rotagriponline.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&product_id=3753&flypage=shop.flypage&pop=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=29
[02:22:45] <pcw_home> What I was asking is basically this: if you disconnect the analog cable from the drive,
[02:22:47] <pcw_home> is the lead that connects to the 7i77 GND still grounded
[02:22:49] <pcw_home> That is, does the drive ground the low side of its analog input?
[02:26:48] <PetefromTn> Not sure really.... Basically if you look at the wj200 manual we have two wires from the shielded cable going to the VFD. One is the Analog input from the axis 5 enable block and it goes in on pin O of the drive. The other is the ground and shield which are both connected to the GND of the axis 5 enable and only the ground goes into the VFD on pin L...
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[02:29:52] <PetefromTn> The OUTPUTS that control the FWD and REV lines go from Field I/O of the mesa to inputs 1 and 2 and we have jumpered the L and PLC together on the VFD and we took the L to the ground point that the Field IO is taken to on the mesa...
[02:39:30] <pcw_home> With an ohmmeter you can can check
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[02:41:32] <pcw_home> if this is the case and re-routing the PC power or VFD filter does not
[02:41:34] <pcw_home> help it may require a common mode choke on the analog lines to the drives
[02:41:35] <pcw_home> (a large ferrite bead basically)
[02:42:53] <PetefromTn> With an Ohm Meter you can check what exactly?
[02:43:14] <pcw_home> (when I say this is the case I mean you find the the servo or VFD drives low side input is grounded)
[02:43:24] <PetefromTn> Honestly do not know how I will re-route the PC power as it has no where else to go...
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[02:46:37] <pcw_home> If you can re-route it temporarily that will check if its the problem
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[02:48:15] <andypugh> PetefromTn: OK, your wiring matches the VFD manual (I just checked)
[02:48:26] <PetefromTn> Yeah we can re-route it and hookup to an extension chord up front and try it. I honestly doubt that is the problem because they do run downt the same corridor but it is not tight at all, honestly there could be several inches between them and with it being a shielded cable it would be doubtful but we'll certainly test it out. I honestly think we probably do not have the grounding design for the 7i77 setup right somehow..
[02:50:17] <PetefromTn> andypugh: Thanks for checking us man, Dunno if we miss something. As I said so far EVERYTHING is working that we have hooked up and we got it all configured to work as designed but we have noise issues. The Filter will probably fix everything as you said it did your setup so since the owners manual recommends it anyways it is a no brainer really.
[02:50:24] <andypugh> pcw_home: http://www.driveswarehouse.com/documentation/Hitachi/WJ200R.pdf page 29, at the bottom, sourcing outputs. It is a rather funny diagram though, why three 24V sources?
[02:51:42] <andypugh> The VFD suppliers are so insistent on filters that I am not entirely sure why they don't just build them in.
[02:53:07] <PetefromTn> yup that's how we have it right now and again the ground and the shield from the cable are hooked to the TB5 pin 23 of 7i77....
[02:53:15] <PetefromTn> COST!!
[02:56:13] <PetefromTn> Thats for the Analog output of course...
[02:56:57] <PetefromTn> OOps sorry thats for the fwd and rev outputs.....to VFD inputs.
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[02:57:40] <andypugh> I was wondering...
[02:58:08] <andypugh> Anyway, time to log off.
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[02:58:25] <pcw_home> If you had the encoder error even without the VFD running
[02:58:27] <pcw_home> I suspect there will still be a problem with a VFD line filter
[02:58:29] <pcw_home> a line filter on the PC might be worth a try
[03:00:41] <PetefromTn> That is doable.... Cannot remember if we had an error without the VFD running. We DID have a couple errors pop up everytime we tried to slow the speed too quickly until we changed a setting in the VFD. Then we had control and it would not error out. We are investigating a braking resistor now since we knew we would need one even before we bought the drive.
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[03:02:16] <PetefromTn> We have honestly been getting these errors occasionally while we made all these configuration changes and it is hard to tell what is the cause at the time because we are concentrating on configuration and wiring issues so now that all of these things are mostly done we can surely pay more attention to when and why any errors pop up.
[03:03:03] <pcw_home> common mode chokes on servo and VFD inputs and outputs are
[03:03:05] <pcw_home> another common remediation
[03:03:07] <pcw_home> (the little gray ovals on page 11 of the Hitachi manual)
[03:04:45] <pcw_home> (giant ferrite beads with all power (but not ground) wire routed through)
[03:05:21] <PetefromTn> Yup familiar with chokes.... well exhaust these other things first and then try that.
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[03:09:13] <PetefromTn> I still cannot believe we have made so much progress on this in such a short time LOL....
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[03:26:02] <PetefromTn> Well thanks so much Pete and Andy I am gonna go to bed LOL....have a good night.
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[07:03:09] <DJ9DJ> moin
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[08:03:20] <Loetmichel> mornin'
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[09:33:04] * mr_new is searching for a solution, how to make a H-Bridge controllable with just PWM and dir
[09:33:36] <mr_new> could it work with a MUX for selecting which site of the bridge has the pwm signal?
[09:37:48] <Loetmichel> mr_new: you could use a 50% PWM signal alone
[09:38:18] <Loetmichel> works only with big motors with high induction but there it works great
[09:38:39] <Loetmichel> simply invert the PWM to one side of the bridge
[09:38:57] <Loetmichel> and rely on the inductance to canel out the torque for 50% PWM
[09:39:29] <Loetmichel> lower than 50% PWM: motor turns one direction, higher than 50% motor turns the other direction
[09:40:12] <Loetmichel> exactly 50% pwm: motor gets alternating + and - (exactly the same) power and stays whre it is.
[09:40:27] <Loetmichel> so you even omit the dir signal ;-)
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[13:20:45] <L84Supper> has anyone seen a far-IR (>2um) laser diode array/bar?
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[13:50:12] <L84Supper> sorry actually mid-IR, 2-6um
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[14:26:57] <sadara> L84Supper: how far?
[14:28:12] <sadara> L84Supper: the longest I've seen is about 3um
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[14:38:16] <L84Supper> 2940nm is the sweet spot but anything 2-6um works well
[14:39:12] <L84Supper> using it to heat water to make steam
[14:39:38] <L84Supper> only on the microscale
[14:44:18] <L84Supper> another option is to make water water absorb much more 600-1200nm
[14:45:22] <L84Supper> using black dye or similar
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[17:17:02] <IchGuckLive> hi all B)
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[18:39:04] <gammax> anyone attach encoders to steppers for exact resolution?
[18:45:00] <archivist> gammax, http://www.linuxcnc.org/index.php/english/forum/27-driver-boards/16030-encoder-support-in-stepper-systems
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[18:47:50] <gammax> thanks
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[18:50:28] <gammax> one last question i have is, If using steppers can I use one of the regular chinese type break out boards instead of a persay.. mesa?
[18:51:39] <Jymmm> http://11foot8.com/
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[18:54:45] <gammax> Jymmm, thats rediculous! lol
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[19:22:55] <pfred1> the ceiling in my garage is almost that high
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[19:38:49] <AR_> lol Jymmm
[19:40:32] <pfred1> they let the air out of truck tires to get them out from under bridges
[19:40:48] <pfred1> the couple of inches makes the difference
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[19:53:37] <Loetmichel> pfred1: hail to air suspension ;-) *press of a button* *PFFFFFFFFT* -> truck 15cm down ;-)
[19:54:37] <pfred1> they just need to build trucks strong enoug hthey can take down bridges
[19:54:59] <pfred1> there silly railad company I fixed ot for ya
[19:55:08] <pfred1> railroad even
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[20:31:36] <gammax> anyone know the proper way to get the exact measurements from a center hole to center hole?
[20:34:36] <ReadError> i think they make little cone shape things that go on calipers..
[20:34:46] <ReadError> but the only way i did it was take the inside, then outside
[20:34:50] <ReadError> and do math on it
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[20:40:33] <Loetmichel> thats the way it goes ;-)
[20:41:37] <Tom_itx> if they're the same size you can measure a hole and zero the calipers then measure between
[20:41:48] <Tom_itx> if they're different size that won't work
[20:41:52] <ReadError> wow thats a slick idea
[20:41:58] <ReadError> ;)
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[20:43:54] <Tom_itx> just don't forget to reset the calipers afterward or your part will be screwed up somewhere else
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[20:50:39] <mrsun> http://sphotos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/528252_10151537362143648_1115926893_n.jpg http://sphotos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/165475_10151537362278648_1840461716_n.jpg my machine is taking shape! =)
[20:50:47] <mrsun> first is a picture of my homemade machine feet :P
[20:51:11] <L84Supper> whatcha makin?
[20:51:19] <mrsun> router machine
[20:51:48] <L84Supper> every garage should have a purple motorcycle :)
[20:51:58] <mrsun> haha =)
[20:52:07] <L84Supper> what is that?
[20:52:22] <L84Supper> make, year?
[20:53:04] <mrsun> dont know
[20:53:05] * Loetmichel has only a brown one ;-)
[20:53:06] <mrsun> my fathers machine
[20:53:15] <mrsun> old thingie =)
[20:53:27] <Loetmichel> and its more of a "fake"
[20:53:28] <mrsun> been standing there for the better of like 30 years :P
[20:53:40] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=13465
[20:53:43] <L84Supper> I can't make out what make of bike it is, was guessing 50's or earlier
[20:53:50] <Loetmichel> ... 50ccm 50kmh ;-)
[20:56:36] <L84Supper> Italian Chopper
[20:56:47] <Loetmichel> hrhr, right
[20:57:27] <Loetmichel> but useful for the commute (at summertime) so i save some diesel
[20:57:45] <L84Supper> what do you have to do to get a motorcycle drivers license there?
[20:58:13] <Loetmichel> the car uses abput 9l/100km diesel, the bike more like 3l/100k unleaded
[20:58:48] <Loetmichel> nothing: the 50ccm bikes are in the car drivers license includes
[20:58:51] <Loetmichel> -s+d
[20:59:34] <DJ9DJ> gn8
[20:59:47] <Loetmichel> but if the bike gets bigger: about 20 hrs theory school, 20 hrs practical school (including night and autobahn) and all in all 2000 eur cost ;-)
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[21:01:49] <L84Supper> you just have to pass the test here, ride in a circle, figure 8, stop in a turn, follow a straight line
[21:02:40] <Loetmichel> i knw
[21:02:46] <Loetmichel> cars the same
[21:03:38] <L84Supper> I like that they require you to actually take some lessons and have to show competence
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[21:03:59] <andypugh> Bah! Missed gammax. But ReadError, this is how I measure hole or stud centres. With a digital caliper measure one hole or stud. Zero the caliper at that measurement, then measure over both. Let the caliper do the maths.
[21:03:59] <Loetmichel> thats the reason the sister of a friend of mine died in an accident few weeks after combin back from a "study abroad" in usa
[21:04:16] <L84Supper> I think the test for cars here is be able to reach the pedals and still be breathing
[21:04:23] <Loetmichel> hrhr
[21:04:26] <ReadError> andypugh, yea i just learned that ;)
[21:04:29] <ReadError> excellent trick
[21:04:32] <ReadError> much better than math
[21:04:52] <andypugh> Eek! http://www.instructables.com/id/ThinkSafe%3a-A-Magnetic-Power-Connector-for-Thinkpad/
[21:05:04] <Loetmichel> L84Supper: in germany the autobahns are not speed limited (some) ... so better know how to drive
[21:05:33] <Loetmichel> especially when driving "papas" audi :-(
[21:06:14] <L84Supper> Loetmichel: do cars have to pass safety inspections every few years?
[21:06:32] <Loetmichel> every 2 years
[21:07:29] <Loetmichel> and they want to change that to 3 years for new cars, then yearly
[21:07:37] <L84Supper> Loetmichel: you can drive cars here with *ventilation* holes from oxidation where you can see into the trunk or passenger compartment
[21:08:03] <Loetmichel> i know... and fear it ;-)
[21:08:25] <Loetmichel> <- had some moments whre i had to rely on the ABS
[21:08:37] <andypugh> I had a car when I was working in the US (cook on a girls' summer camp) and you could lose 3l coke bottles through the holes in the boot floor.
[21:08:48] <Loetmichel> ... when you drive 200++kph and some idiot pulls out wit 90kph...
[21:09:43] <Loetmichel> ... you make black "dotted" stripes on the tarmac...
[21:09:58] <andypugh> I think i prefer my homebrew magsafe (for the probe head): https://plus.google.com/photos/108164504656404380542/albums/5747722155741347649/5866812269989148114?banner=pwa and https://plus.google.com/photos/108164504656404380542/albums/5747722155741347649/5866812284499794850?banner=pwa
[21:10:04] <Loetmichel> ... and need fresh underwear ;-)
[21:11:06] <Loetmichel> andypugh: wont work with modern laptops: 3rd pin vor onewire-datachip in the PSU
[21:11:25] <andypugh> It's not for a laptop.
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[21:14:02] <andypugh> It's for a touch probe, designed to break away cleanly if the spindle is accidentally started.
[21:18:15] <Loetmichel> ah, nice
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[21:20:24] <gammax> anyone know any good online cnc training courses that will train cad and or cam
[21:21:17] <andypugh> Ah, gammax, did you see how to measure hole centres with a digital caliper?
[21:21:43] <gammax> I did not actually. I got kicked off...
[21:21:48] <andypugh> this is how I measure hole or stud centres. With a digital caliper measure one hole or stud. Zero the caliper at that measurement, then measure over both. Let the caliper do the maths.
[21:22:49] <Loetmichel> gammax: not kicked, just a bed internet connection: [22:36] * gammax (~Rob@unaffiliated/gammax) Quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
[21:22:49] <gammax> thats how you get the exact measurement? Seems like too much room for error...
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[21:23:08] <gammax> Loetmichel, thats what I meant :)
[21:23:20] <Loetmichel> s/bed/bad
[21:24:16] <andypugh> gammax: How exact do you want? It should be good to twice the uncertainly in the caliper reading. It does assume that both holes are the same size.
[21:26:51] <pfred1> is there anything Mothers wax can't trick out?
[21:27:09] <gammax> I guess that is good enough... just wanted to know if there was a more precise way...
[21:27:11] <gammax> thanks!
[21:27:31] <pfred1> I bought an old hole saw kit today and polished them with wax man they're sweet looking now
[21:28:18] <andypugh> gammax: Well, a coordinate measuring machine will tell you the answer more exactlty that you need.
[21:28:58] <andypugh> Or you could probe the machine on the bed of your milling machine with a touch-probe.
[21:29:21] <gammax> At this point the probe is too much trouble...
[21:29:34] <pfred1> that's what she said
[21:29:43] <gammax> ohhhh
[21:30:10] <andypugh> Once you measure the spacing you can probably make an educated guess at what the designer intended it to be.
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[21:31:04] <gammax> unfortuanetly Im currently measuring chinese things...
[21:31:51] <gammax> so any thoughts on the online training courses?
[21:31:55] <pfred1> well find whatever they copied and measure that
[21:32:02] <gammax> lol
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[21:32:55] <andypugh> Most CAD packages come bundled with tutorials specific to them. Which CAD package do you want to use
[21:32:57] <andypugh> ?
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[21:33:41] <gammax> solidworks... although Im opening a business right now and i can get extra free money from unemployment if im attending a course where I CAN get a 2 year certificate.
[21:34:00] <andypugh> I had to go back to a model I made in Alibre yesterday. I have been using Autodesk Inventor for the last year or so. The differences in appraoch were really frustrating, and those two packages work in almost exactly the same way..
[21:34:04] <pfred1> free money?
[21:34:27] <gammax> 50% extra just to attend a course...
[21:35:07] <andypugh> Going to an actual physical course, with instructors, is the best idea.
[21:35:37] <gammax> I agree... although the cheaper the better this way.
[21:36:27] <pfred1> who wants to see my flea market goodies I got this weekend?
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[21:41:43] <skunkworks> archivist: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=videos&search_query=emc2&search_sort=video_date_uploaded
[21:42:08] <Tom_itx> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2a/VacRect2E.png
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[21:42:24] <Tom_itx> dunno why that made me think of andy
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[22:26:24] <andypugh> skunkworks: I wonder why they do that?
[22:28:13] <skunkworks> no clue. are they utilizing ads>
[22:28:15] <skunkworks> ?
[22:28:20] <skunkworks> (I didn't click on them)
[22:28:57] <skunkworks> but it seems they would pick higher bandwidth videos like justin beber :)
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[22:44:50] <andypugh> If you run ads you get (I think) $1 per thousand views.
[22:45:16] <pfred1> on Youtube?
[22:45:18] <andypugh> Even my most popular one would only have netted me $88
[22:46:06] <pfred1> I heard they don't pay out til you reach $100 owed
[22:46:42] <UncleG> Good Day! Can someone forward me some information on how to properly control my axis (which controls a steel cam drum.) The drum controls a slide and I do not want the cam to go in reverse and after each full rotation reset the encoder to 0.000 for its next cycle. Basically I want to "home" the camafter each rotation. I cannot find documentation, any links?
[22:47:38] <andypugh> UncleG: Do you have an index pulse?
[22:47:52] <UncleG> z z/?
[22:47:57] <andypugh> Yes
[22:47:58] <UncleG> yes
[22:49:06] <UncleG> should I take my encoder away from the motor shaft reattache to cam shaft and then...." clever coding inserted here"
[22:49:09] <andypugh> There is an outmoded HAL component called "supply" http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/supply.9.html
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[22:50:02] <andypugh> I think you can use that to keep the encoder "index-enable" always true, so that the encoder will always reset every index.
[22:50:20] <UncleG> sounds great, im learning bit by bit!
[22:50:48] <UncleG> how fitting, Im using an "Index-Werke" screw machine.
[22:52:38] <andypugh> Now, there is a complication, as index-enable is a bidirectional pin, and the output of "supply" is not. That means that you will also probably need a "tristate_bit" ( http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/tristate_bit.9.html ) component to convert the output of "supply" into a bidirectional pin.
[22:53:05] <UncleG> if you want to see, here it shows me having to completely run all my cross-slide tooling all the way around and backwards through every cam, instead of justcontinuing on
[22:54:06] <andypugh> Not knowing yout situation, it may be that all you actually need to do is define that axis as a "wrapped rotary" http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?WrappedRotaryAxes
[22:54:27] <UncleG> one last question, maybe instead of using encoder, my home switch is already attached at bottom of cams maybe use that?
[22:55:00] <UncleG> yeah, I thought that was the correct route, but I didnt get it proper..
[22:55:03] <andypugh> Maybe. There are almost too many ways to approach this.
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[22:55:59] <andypugh> Maybe just linking index-enable through a "not" http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/not.9.html and then through the tristate to convert to bidirectional would work too.
[22:56:45] <UncleG> I will review this all and try to decide again which is best
[22:58:28] <UncleG> Im doing alright getting things together, my biggest issues are trying to make sense of the programming. Which is not my strong suit!
[22:59:16] <andypugh> HAL is not actually programming. Imagine it as a very odd sort of wiring, where signals can be combined and changed.
[23:00:53] <UncleG> well, if its a series of tubes and wires im gonna have a bad time.
[23:02:08] <andypugh> If you don't like programming or wiring or plumbing then you came to the wrong place :-)
[23:02:08] <pfred1> my debugging skills haven't been too swift lately judging by how long it has tanek me to repair a simple VOM
[23:02:43] <pfred1> andypugh you can not like an activity but enjoy an outcome
[23:03:02] <UncleG> my encoder was slipping for a week and I didnt realize it ;(
[23:03:28] <pfred1> I've been slipping for at least the last 10 years and I didn't realize it either
[23:03:42] <UncleG> *nods*
[23:03:58] <UncleG> I think pink floyd made a song about that
[23:05:26] <UncleG> So, why dont we all start an online community machine shop?
[23:05:52] <pfred1> because there are local hackerspaces?
[23:06:03] <UncleG> then we can quit our day jobs
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[23:08:14] <UncleG> I say, we make mesa based linux ready cnc retrofit kits for educational centers and hobbyists.
[23:08:26] <UncleG> =D
[23:08:47] <pfred1> doesn't someone already do that?
[23:09:01] <andypugh> Smithy
[23:09:11] <UncleG> oh
[23:09:14] <UncleG> good, I wanna see
[23:10:53] <andypugh> Hmm, but I lije the idea of moving back to Yorkshire, and making machine tools in Calderdale again. (look at Lathes.co.uk, for the first half of the 20th Centrury half the machine tools in the world came out of Calderdale.
[23:11:31] <pfred1> andypugh you want to start your own industrial revolution do you?
[23:12:00] <andypugh> (Town and Woodhouse, Ormerod, Denford, Boxford, Harrison, many many more). Of course the last three still exist.
[23:12:13] <UncleG> oh that is a great place!
[23:12:31] <UncleG> there are some really great historical bits on that site
[23:12:34] <andypugh> I need to look at a map to see if Dean Smith and Grace count.
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[23:13:56] <andypugh> I did want a Willson lathe, (made in Halifax) but perhaps I should go for a Brighouse-made one.
[23:14:38] <pfred1> andypugh I still can't believe you're giving up on your multimachine
[23:14:54] <UncleG> well you know pfred1 if we don't our children will be slaves
[23:15:22] <andypugh> (A geographical note, these are different towns, but they are contiguous, I doubt that there is 40 miles between DSG in Keighley and Boxford in Brighouse)
[23:15:38] <FinboySlick> UncleG: andypugh is going to save liberty with his new lathe?
[23:15:52] <UncleG> andy! you were designing a multimachine?
[23:16:01] <UncleG> I have plans for one as well! =D
[23:16:03] <pfred1> he has one
[23:16:10] <UncleG> pix please
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[23:16:17] <andypugh> pfred1: I still use the mult-thing. But it's a bit rubbish and changing between modes is a chore.
[23:16:44] <pfred1> UncleG ancy has videos
[23:16:48] <pfred1> andy even
[23:17:01] <pfred1> show UncleG your gear cutting one
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[23:17:17] <UncleG> *waits patiently*
[23:17:28] <pfred1> he narrates
[23:17:37] <UncleG> fantastic
[23:18:04] <andypugh> It is (I think) a cheap Indian knock-off of a cheap Chinese knock-off of an Emco: https://plus.google.com/photos/108164504656404380542/albums/5747722155741347649/5856099195071654466?banner=pwa
[23:18:19] <pfred1> aww come on where's the youtube videos?
[23:18:36] <pfred1> I might have you bookmarked I don't know
[23:19:07] <andypugh> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhICrb0Tbn4
[23:19:13] <Tecan> (ZhICrb0Tbn4) "Hobbing (Gear cutting) on a Mini-Mill with EMC2" by "andy pugh" is "Tech" - Length: 0:02:34
[23:19:44] <pfred1> ha this is it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhICrb0Tbn4&list=UUexvgsGz_QFvOublovDYoTQ&index=24
[23:20:30] * FinboySlick woahs at Andy's awesome british accent.
[23:20:48] <pfred1> yeah I could never go out drinking with Andy I'd fall off the bar stool
[23:22:20] <UncleG> really great :)
[23:22:27] <pfred1> yeah that is great
[23:22:27] <UncleG> I have a similar plan.
[23:22:37] <UncleG> for the hardinge dv-59
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[23:23:52] <UncleG> tooling goes in spindle, material would be located on a multiaxis compound slide. so it would be either an automatic lathe/cnc combination horozontal machining center
[23:23:58] <andypugh> For extra fun, turn on the automatic subtitles, they are abosultely and competley hopeless.
[23:25:12] <andypugh> A much more competent setup, with a machine made in Yorkshire: http://youtu.be/ltmZrDrt6pQ
[23:25:13] <Tecan> (ltmZrDrt6pQ) "Pulley" by "andy pugh" is "Tech" - Length: 0:02:44
[23:25:40] <UncleG> also tooling pickoff to automatically, feed a part, pull part out of collet and place endmill in spindle and rework back side of part before taking the tool out of spindle and then loading another.
[23:25:42] <L84Supper> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IePjYfVV8OQ so this isn't English English?
[23:25:43] <Tecan> (IePjYfVV8OQ) "Austin powers" by "ryan hoversholm" is "Film" - Length: 0:00:37
[23:25:50] <UncleG> ooh more
[23:27:45] <UncleG> that looks like a very solid mill
[23:28:04] <pfred1> andypugh so you're hand feeding it?
[23:28:26] <andypugh> Yes, it is going to be the X-drive pulley.
[23:28:31] <UncleG> bar loader
[23:28:37] <UncleG> oh
[23:28:39] <UncleG> pugh
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[23:34:30] <andypugh> L84Supper: No, that is London English. I ought to talk like this, but I have been in the South too long.
[23:34:33] <andypugh> http://youtu.be/ScELaXMCVis
[23:34:39] <Tecan> (ScELaXMCVis) "Yorkshire Dialect" by "Guitcad1" is "Education" - Length: 0:02:14
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[23:39:26] <UncleG> Ive got a couple barloaders with some free cutting time, if you guys or your friends need a range of 1000-10,000 of something turned, get my contact info Id like to give back to the community somehow. Cover shipping and material. Same thing if you guys need some material I have thousands of 3-4 inch long, 1 inch heagon bar ends, absolutely no use except scrap cost for the,
[23:39:29] <UncleG> them*
[23:39:45] <andypugh> In my second vidoe, the camera was mounted on a gorillapod grippping the original HoVo light fitting. Being long and wobbly and mounted to the machine, it wasn't a great choice. :-)
[23:40:55] <andypugh> UncleG: Which continent?
[23:41:01] <UncleG> Indiana, USa
[23:41:06] <UncleG> :P
[23:42:00] <andypugh> You could put the bar ends on eBay. $5 each, better than nothing.
[23:42:09] <UncleG> barends free to pick up! for anyone who needs em.
[23:42:20] <L84Supper> UncleG: what part of Indiana?
[23:42:22] <UncleG> yeah I have a guy right now planning on putting a package together
[23:42:26] <UncleG> fort wayne area
[23:42:57] <L84Supper> I'm ~2hrs away
[23:43:18] <UncleG> Well so long as you put them to good use and not just turn them in for scrap cash you are welcome to have some.
[23:43:41] <L84Supper> all hexagon steel?
[23:43:43] <UncleG> they are 1215 I think
[23:43:53] <UncleG> yeah I some other stuff but I have THOUSANDS of those
[23:44:43] <UncleG> some 1 1/4 round but I donate that to my local highschool vocational center
[23:45:08] <UncleG> I have alot of 5/8 12L14 also
[23:45:12] <L84Supper> yeah, sounds like good practice material
[23:45:16] <UncleG> its leaded so you shouldnt weld on it.
[23:45:27] <UncleG> toxic fumes when you do.
[23:46:20] <UncleG> l84 do you want a 5 gallon bucket or something of stuff hex and 5/8 rnd?
[23:46:39] <L84Supper> if i head out that way
[23:47:30] <UncleG> 260-359-9237 just ask for Garrett and mention EMC chat room.
[23:47:38] <L84Supper> heh, OK
[23:48:14] <UncleG> I usually make partf from them but I just been too busy and they are literally filling up my shop.
[23:49:09] <UncleG> What machines are you into?
[23:49:53] <L84Supper> mostly additive manufacturing, so we put material vs cut :)
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[23:50:04] <UncleG> nice
[23:50:25] <L84Supper> but we have to machine parts to make the machines, that will soon make the machines
[23:50:42] <UncleG> so plastic printing or what?
[23:50:49] <L84Supper> metal printing is probably the most complex
[23:51:03] <andypugh> eBay is where I buy all my material. Unless I really do have a use for a 3m length. I reckon you would find _grateful_ buyers on eBay. Make sure the postage makes it worth your while.
[23:51:47] <L84Supper> several different techs, SLA, SLA, GGG, etc
[23:51:57] <UncleG> I have a place in my hearts for the grateful!
[23:52:07] <andypugh> GGG? (I think I can guess two Gs)
[23:52:32] <L84Supper> yeah, if you need metal parts for some small project you end up having to pay extra for small cuts
[23:52:40] <L84Supper> glorified glue gun
[23:53:02] <andypugh> Yeah, I had "glue gun"
[23:53:59] <L84Supper> <$100 at metal supermarkets or similar charges you ~$30 extra
[23:54:05] <UncleG> insane
[23:54:32] <andypugh> UncleG: Not really, there is a cost involved in handling small orders.
[23:55:06] <L84Supper> whenever I scrap something or throw it away, I generally need it about 3 weeks later :)
[23:55:53] <L84Supper> http://www.metalsupermarkets.com/ see what that bar would cost
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[23:55:56] <andypugh> L84Supper: metal SLS, does any process make fully-dense parts, or do they still need to be flood-brazed?
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[23:56:28] <UncleG> I think im just going to buy a hundred prepay shipping boxes fill them up with barends and get rid of them as quickly as possible. I just hate to see myself taking them to a scrapyard knowing some poor fella is paying 30$ for 3 barends.
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[23:56:56] <andypugh> UncleG: Sounds good to me.
[23:57:03] <gammax> Can I please request what everyone on here is using for cad/cam?
[23:57:27] <UncleG> I talked my buddy into setting up an ebay account to sell them on, we would split anything we make on em.
[23:57:37] <UncleG> pencil/paper
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[23:58:33] <L84Supper> andypugh: some are fully dense, the trick is printing parts with a range of density
[23:58:38] <andypugh> I use Autodesk Inventor CAD (I get a free home license via work, and used to use it full time as my job, so nothing else makes sense) and I am using PyCAM for CAM, (and spotting ways to improve it)
[23:59:02] <L84Supper> andypugh: e-beam makes the most dense parts currently
[23:59:16] <Tom_itx> gammax, smartcam here
[23:59:32] <gammax> Tom_itx, what cad you using?
[23:59:41] <Tom_itx> it is cad cam
[23:59:47] <gammax> ahhh
[23:59:59] <gammax> theres so many i dont know which one to use...