#linuxcnc | Logs for 2013-04-06

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[00:20:01] <r00t4rd3d> man
[00:20:37] <r00t4rd3d> jdh, copy all the parts and make me one :D
[00:22:01] <jdh> I need some tiny steppers for it
[00:22:32] <r00t4rd3d> i got a 17
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[00:23:46] <andypugh> http://www.zappautomation.co.uk/en/nema-8-stepper-motors/352-sy20sth42-0804b-high-torque-hybrid-stepper-motors.html
[00:23:56] <andypugh> (NEMA 8, 20mm)
[00:24:04] <andypugh> Very cute :-)
[00:24:41] <jdh> that's a tiny motor
[00:25:25] <jdh> need to scrounge some junk printers
[00:25:38] <r00t4rd3d> see this?
[00:25:39] <r00t4rd3d> http://www.precisiontools.com.sg/CLISBYMINILATHES.htm
[00:26:32] <jdh> this one says made in .au and has an au URL
[00:27:08] <r00t4rd3d> you can get the motor at that site i linked too
[00:27:22] <r00t4rd3d> gear belt everything
[00:27:45] <jdh> spindle motor?
[00:29:15] <jdh> I"m going to try to turn some delrin
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[00:35:37] <mhaberler> great to hear it works for you
[00:36:00] <mhaberler> I hope the USB delays wont inject too much noise into actual position, that could be an issue
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[00:41:23] <tjtr33> gabewillen, this maybe of use, a user said he'd made a fast serial connection with a uart on a mesa board http://tinyurl.com/bofu5w2
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[00:43:18] <AR__> so i'm using a 60 deg V-cutter to mill some PCBs
[00:43:18] <AR__> and i'm getting burrs on the traces
[00:43:18] <AR__> no matter what i do
[00:45:59] <tjtr33> gabewillen, andypugh had done it, i'm still reading the thread
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[00:51:49] <pfred1> that is because milling PCBs is dumb
[00:52:06] <AR__> yeah i learned that
[00:52:06] <AR__> but it is a good exercise
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[00:56:26] <pfred1> try putting down resist with your CNC machine then etching the board
[00:56:53] <pfred1> if you know what you're doing an etch should only take 2 minutes
[00:57:51] <andypugh> I have had some success with a flatbed plotter and an OHP pen for resist.
[00:58:19] <pfred1> toner transfer is kind of dumb too BTW
[00:58:24] <andypugh> But I can generally wait 10 days for Hong Kong to send me much better PCBs than I could ever make
[00:58:39] <pfred1> trick to etching is have your tank fuming and pump air into it
[01:04:19] <Tom_itx> i've had good luck with it
[01:04:27] <AR__> eh, if i want something done i'd just have it sent out
[01:04:27] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/etching/etch_index.php
[01:04:28] <Tom_itx> my etch tank
[01:04:30] <Tom_itx> pfred1, why do you say it's dumb?
[01:04:36] <AR__> i broke a .023 endmill also
[01:04:36] <AR__> fff
[01:04:42] <pfred1> Tom_itx if it was decent industry would be all over it but they're not
[01:04:45] <Tom_itx> no but it's a simple thing for a hobbyist to do
[01:04:46] <AR__> well it is slower and not feasible for mass production
[01:04:49] <Tom_itx> i agree the industry uses photo etching
[01:04:52] <Tom_itx> i've been thru a board house
[01:04:52] <pfred1> copper doesn't cut very clean
[01:04:52] <Tom_itx> nope
[01:04:52] <Tom_itx> copper is crap to mill
[01:04:52] <Tom_itx> leaves stringy burrs
[01:04:52] <AR__> and it doesnt help that it is on top of fucking fiberglass
[01:05:02] <pfred1> etching kicks ass though
[01:05:03] <Tom_itx> yeah, photo resist costs more than toner transfer though
[01:05:04] <Tom_itx> not counting the printer of course :D
[01:05:04] <pfred1> well not if you're ruining toner cartridges on a regular basis
[01:05:05] <Tom_itx> if i have very many to do, i just use a board house
[01:05:05] <pfred1> I wasted two with PNP Blue
[01:05:07] <Tom_itx> if i have one off i need to test i'll make it myself
[01:05:07] <Tom_itx> the pnp blue sucks
[01:05:09] <pfred1> it sure does
[01:05:10] <Tom_itx> i have some too
[01:05:11] <Tom_itx> but i've managed to get good results with it also
[01:05:11] <pfred1> next time I see mine I have to remember to throw it out
[01:05:11] <Tom_itx> heh
[01:05:11] <pfred1> toner carts for my printer are $100 a pop
[01:05:12] <Tom_itx> i've had good luck with certain photo papers
[01:05:15] <Tom_itx> i was refilling mine for $5 a pop for a while
[01:05:17] <pfred1> well running PNP Blue through mine screwed up the bulb in it or something
[01:05:17] <Tom_itx> i'd collect discarded cartridges from offices
[01:05:22] <pfred1> after that everything printed was all speckly
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[01:05:22] <Tom_itx> but then my series ii died
[01:05:23] <pfred1> I tried cleaning it with alcohol and stuff no dice
[01:05:35] <pfred1> this is my etch tank http://www.instructables.com/files/orig/F53/FE12/GSUSNNHA/F53FE12GSUSNNHA.jpg
[01:05:38] <AR__> potatoes?
[01:05:40] <AR__> why are there potatoes in your etch tank
[01:05:45] <pfred1> there is only a test tube in my etch tank
[01:06:04] <pfred1> I don't even need to monitor the temp when it fumes it is hot enough
[01:06:07] <pfred1> that and bubble air through the tank and etches come out fast and sharp
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[01:06:18] <pfred1> the best thing for pumping air throug hthe tank I've found is a cheap 12 volt tire air compressor
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[01:06:19] <PCW> I think those potatoes are rocks
[01:06:19] <pfred1> it makes a nice pulsating air stream
[01:06:21] <pfred1> I used to use my big air compressor but fell back on to a tire compressor after I'd moved my big compressor it works better
[01:06:25] <pfred1> PCW oh yes the rocks in my water bath that is so the plastic tray doesn't sit right down onto the glass pan
[01:06:26] <pfred1> might melt or something if it did
[01:06:29] <pfred1> river pebbles
[01:06:54] <PCW> potatoes would get funky after a while
[01:06:55] <pfred1> they could get tender and tasty too though
[01:06:57] <PCW> etchant might not help
[01:07:01] <PCW> bbl
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[01:07:01] <pfred1> a little seasoning never killed anyone
[01:07:47] <Tom_itx> i use a fishtank bubbler
[01:07:47] <pfred1> I don't have one
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[01:07:52] <pfred1> I have caps off old spray cans and rubber hose though
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[01:08:12] <pfred1> and enough air compressors too
[01:08:14] <pfred1> it makes a big difference to pump air into the tank
[01:08:14] <pfred1> rocking the tank is for the birds
[01:08:16] <Tom_itx> yeah i agree
[01:08:50] <pfred1> I used to do that and my etches would take like a half of an hour and be all undercut too
[01:08:50] <Tom_itx> i preheated the etchant in hot water in the sink though
[01:08:51] <Tom_itx> don't use a heater
[01:09:25] <Tom_itx> mine come out pretty clean
[01:09:25] <pfred1> yeah I'd turn my heater off and it would stay warm through the etch
[01:09:25] <pfred1> like I said if everything is right a board should only take 2 minutes
[01:09:25] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/temp/tiny/tinyboard1.jpg
[01:09:26] <Tom_itx> there's an attiny10 board
[01:09:26] <Tom_itx> 3 traces under a sot23-6
[01:09:39] <pfred1> you did that with an iron on?
[01:09:41] <Tom_itx> yessir
[01:09:41] <pfred1> I see some raggies
[01:10:03] <Tom_itx> well it ain't perfect but it did work
[01:10:03] <pfred1> in a high frequency circuit they could matter too
[01:10:04] <Tom_itx> like i said, i generally only make them for one off tests nowdays
[01:10:05] <Tom_itx> if i were making a high frequency circuit i'd have them made for me
[01:10:20] <pfred1> be nice to have the capability
[01:10:30] <Tom_itx> i suppose. but my volume isn't worth the effort
[01:10:38] <pfred1> I do electronics to do it not have it done for me
[01:10:39] <pfred1> I do it because i enjoy it
[01:10:46] <Tom_itx> i enjoy it as well
[01:10:59] <pfred1> if I can't do it then I'm not interested
[01:11:11] <Tom_itx> but i'm not gonna hand etch 1k boards to pass on to the public
[01:12:17] <pfred1> me either
[01:12:17] <Tom_itx> i developed the first off myself
[01:12:17] <pfred1> people can go etch their own boards
[01:12:20] <Tom_itx> i got my own toaster oven as well
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[01:12:59] <Tom_itx> works great
[01:13:03] <pfred1> me too I have a cuisinart
[01:13:03] <pfred1> I got it at a garage sale for $10
[01:13:04] <pfred1> brand new
[01:13:04] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/toaster_oven/toaster_oven_index.php
[01:14:32] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/toaster_oven/triac_top2.jpg
[01:14:32] <Tom_itx> i tried 'iron on' silkscreen there
[01:15:04] <pfred1> you are ambitious
[01:15:21] <pfred1> I never label projects enough
[01:15:21] <Tom_itx> just toner transfer
[01:15:21] <Tom_itx> with no copper
[01:15:39] <pfred1> I just did a neat mini project
[01:15:39] <pfred1> a real breadboard
[01:15:58] <Tom_itx> anyway.. i'm out for a bit
[01:15:59] <pfred1> I hammered brass escutcheon pins into a scrap piece of pine wood and soldered stuff to it
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[01:38:14] <jdh> eyeballing a 4 jaw chuck doesn't lead to goodness
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[01:39:46] <pfred1> 4 jaw chuck huh?
[01:39:49] <ProxDem> nice lathe jdh
[01:39:50] <ProxDem> that's pretty kewl wish I had a small one like that
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[01:40:23] <andypugh> Put a tool very close to the work to judge the high side. You can get pretty close that way.
[01:40:42] <andypugh> exit
[01:40:54] <jdh> yeah, it's just a lot of back and forth
[01:41:03] <pfred1> I got piles of motors
[01:41:11] <pfred1> a sewing machine motor would run that lathe
[01:41:18] <pfred1> what are you going to try to turn it into?
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[01:41:23] <AR__> his ass
[01:41:27] <jdh> a cnc toy
[01:41:35] <jdh> it has a spindle motor that works fine
[01:41:36] <pfred1> that would be an expensive sex toy
[01:41:42] <pfred1> I knew a guy who was a total nut for making paraphanelia and he got a Unimat first thing he made on it was a pot pipe
[01:41:45] <pfred1> he was all like there's this design i always wanted to try and see if it'd work
[01:41:47] <AR__> rofl
[01:41:50] <pfred1> oh it was funnier because he was stoned on time release speed and he was at it for like 12 hours straight
[01:42:00] <pfred1> there is a lot of setup time involved with those all in one machines
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[01:42:38] <R2E4_> pcw: you here?
[01:42:46] <pfred1> R2E4_ 20:23 < PCW> bbl
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[01:43:42] <pfred1> i used to love that cartoon
[01:43:44] <pfred1> maybe just the theme song
[01:43:48] <pfred1> Honk Kong Phooie #1 super guy!
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[01:43:52] <pfred1> it was a very catchy tune
[01:44:00] <pfred1> I don't think they could get away with making cartoons like that today
[01:44:01] <ProxDem> lol
[01:44:08] <pfred1> jdh just keep telling yourself that theoretically 4 jaw chucks are more accurate than scroll chucks
[01:44:10] <pfred1> it seems to help somewhat while fiddling around with them
[01:44:50] <jdh> they have a little higher capacity too, which helps with this
[01:46:25] <jdh> I need an MT0 live center. or dead
[01:53:03] <Tom_itx> andypugh, how do you go about centering work in your rotary axis?
[01:53:13] <Tom_itx> you can't spin it like a regular lathe head to find the high spots
[01:53:25] <andypugh> Jog it.
[01:53:31] <Tom_itx> or does yours have collets...
[01:53:32] <Tom_itx> i'm thinking of a 4 jaw rotary head
[01:53:40] <Tom_itx> or even a workpiece you may purposely want off center.. what's the best way to find the reference point
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[01:53:53] <andypugh> The the trick is actually not to "spin" a 4-jaw anyway.
[01:55:03] <Tom_itx> yeah i move it in 90 deg increments when i'm centering one
[01:55:10] <andypugh> You find which adjuster is lowest, loosen it, find the highest, and then tighten it to half-way between the two readings, then back to the first one, and tighten it up, then do the same thing for the other two adjusters.
[01:55:12] <Tom_itx> or 180
[01:55:39] <andypugh> The trick is to look at the actual numbers on the gauge.
[01:55:43] <Tom_itx> with a last word indicator if needed
[01:55:58] <Tom_itx> generally i'm turning the piece anyway
[01:56:35] <Tom_itx> yeah
[01:56:38] <Tom_itx> my lathe has a bit of slop in it though
[01:56:39] <pfred1> Tom_itx last word? but, but but ...
[01:56:51] <Tom_itx> never heard of that?
[01:57:18] <pfred1> I've used them
[01:57:33] <pfred1> I rebuilt a wheel dresser once and the needle didn't move when I indicated it so I thought I broke something
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[02:40:58] <r00t4rd3d> http://i.imgur.com/6NYeL9b.jpg
[02:41:31] <r00t4rd3d> that does stuff to my brains
[02:45:21] <jdh> so does that shit you've been smoking.
[02:47:47] <pfred1> you're going to lose your mind eventually
[02:47:53] <pfred1> so you might as well have fun doing it
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[03:11:08] <R2E4_> my R2E4 is up and running on the existing control.
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[04:10:48] <noob123> can anyone suggest the best value (effiency/cost) CNC that works with linuxcnc ?? Could be on ebay or other site ??
[04:11:33] <noob123> 3 axis, mostly for PCB
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[04:14:25] <pfred1> you need a very accurate machine to cut PCB and a high speec spindle helps too
[04:14:31] <pfred1> high speed even
[04:14:56] <pfred1> you're going to either have to go pneumatic or water cooled
[04:15:39] <pfred1> forget the dremel nonsense
[04:17:14] <pfred1> a turn key machine capable of cutting PCB I'm going to guess is going to start at $4,500 ?
[04:17:39] <pfred1> another option is to retrofit a milling machine like an X3
[04:17:49] <pfred1> but you're still going to have to upgrade the spindle somehow
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[04:18:36] <noob123> by cut you mean doing the traces or really cuting the board ??
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[04:18:59] <pfred1> noob123 if you see pipes for linear guides and partleboard as a cutting table be very wary
[04:19:31] <pfred1> those machines likely cannot hold tolerances to cut PCB
[04:20:33] <pfred1> I know what you want to do and in order to do it successfully it isn't that easy with the wrong machine
[04:20:43] <pfred1> it isn't that easy with the right machine
[04:21:34] <pfred1> copper cladding is what 2 mils thick?
[04:22:15] <noob123> about this
[04:22:19] <pfred1> you're just not going to be that accurate with pieces of pipe and particleboard
[04:22:55] <pfred1> like a fireball 90
[04:23:20] <noob123> checking..
[04:23:41] <pfred1> well a fireball can't cut PCBs
[04:23:46] <pfred1> although they claim that it can
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[04:24:35] <noob123> they don look much precise with those pipes....
[04:25:43] <pfred1> noob123 if you really want to mill PCBs the minimum you might get away with is retrofitting one of these and upgrading the spindle on it too http://www.mini-lathe.com/X3_mill/X3rvw/X3.htm
[04:25:51] <Connor> The pipes are just the frame work.. I think they use hardened rods do they not?
[04:26:10] <pfred1> Connor it doesn't matter the table is particleboard
[04:26:36] <Connor> pfred1: No it's not. It's MDF.
[04:26:40] <Connor> Not the same.
[04:26:43] <pfred1> same difference
[04:26:56] <pfred1> it is hardly ground steel
[04:27:29] <pfred1> someone was in here about a year ago trying to do it on a fireball
[04:27:31] <noob123> in this video it seems precise http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W9rVt730q8
[04:27:37] <Connor> I just made a fixture for my PCB's.. and milled it out flagt.
[04:27:53] <Connor> flat.
[04:28:03] <pfred1> Connor so you're milling PCBs on a fireball?
[04:28:26] <Connor> No. On my DIY Router.. which, is made of MDF, Supported rails and ball screws..
[04:29:36] <pfred1> THK rails?
[04:29:37] <Connor> http://www.ivdc.com/cnc/cnc13.JPG
[04:29:42] <Connor> No.
[04:29:54] <pfred1> oh those ground rods?
[04:29:55] <Connor> Thats my setup.. with the PCB jig.
[04:30:03] <Connor> Yes. Ground, supported..
[04:30:07] <Connor> as is the fireball.
[04:30:24] <Connor> It uses ACME screws vs ball screws..
[04:30:49] <Connor> the Firball that is.. Mine using 1610's for the X & Y, and a 1605 for the Z
[04:31:03] <pfred1> well I know people do it but then again people bungee jump naked too and yo uwon't catch me doing that either
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[04:31:52] <pfred1> to really make an X3 work you do have to retro ball screws into it too
[04:32:06] <Connor> The KEY is making sure the gantry and the Z axis is square..
[04:32:11] <pfred1> I mean you can run the leads it comes with but I don't know with the backlash
[04:33:21] <pfred1> is that a Bosch Pony?
[04:34:08] <Connor> Colt
[04:34:28] <pfred1> I wouldn't think the bearings in it would be accurate enough or the RPM high enough to cut copper cladding too cleanly
[04:34:45] <Connor> 30K RPM ?
[04:35:02] <pfred1> yeah that is pretty slow in the world of high speed spindles
[04:35:25] <pfred1> 80-100K is more in the ballpark
[04:36:25] <noob123> Connor, did you make it by the scratch, or you followed some already done project ?
[04:36:31] <Connor> .0004" Run out
[04:36:37] <Connor> scratch.
[04:38:01] <Connor> http://www.precisebits.com/products/equipment/bosch_colt_kits.asp?tsPT=!!!Bosch-Colt!!!Kit!!!PG!!!#Tabs
[04:38:06] <Connor> Collects for my router..
[04:38:37] <noob123> have you made it available ?? or do you guys recommend some projects that I could Study ??
[04:38:43] <pfred1> all moving gantry machines seem pretty shaky to me
[04:39:10] <Connor> noob123: what you see is what you get.
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[04:39:41] <Connor> pfred1: I didn't design it for pcb's only.. but for a PCB specific only one.. yea.. moving table design would probably be better.
[04:39:51] <Connor> one with a much smaller cutting area.
[04:39:51] <pfred1> this looks like it might be able to do it http://www.aliexpress.com/item/mini-CNC-3040CH80-4-axis-Engraving-milling-and-drilling-machine-with-800W-water-cooling-spindle-motor/598487931.html
[04:40:28] <Connor> I am planning on converting the Z axis and table to aluminum at some point..
[04:40:32] <pfred1> catch as catch can with that imported stuff
[04:40:48] <pfred1> Connor get a sink cut out
[04:40:57] <pfred1> granite!
[04:41:42] <Connor> I wanted to put granite under the whole machine because the desk is a bit warped.. caused issues till I shimmed it some.
[04:43:11] <pfred1> noob123 turn key vs. build it yourself the economics can vary widely
[04:43:50] <Connor> I probably have over $1200 in the machine... not count CPU.. but, was spent over time.. and $290 bobo on the balls crews.. had to re-order them machined.
[04:43:54] <pfred1> I've heard of people shelling out serious cash and not getting what they expected
[04:44:37] <pfred1> then again if you build it yourself there is no guarantee it'll be everything you want it to be right off the bat either
[04:44:43] <Connor> I will say, it was a learning experiance. I had fun building it.. I would change a few things.. but, I like my design. 18" x 12" cutting area in a 36" x 25" foot print.
[04:47:12] <pfred1> the concept of putting together a CNC machine is simple enough but getting all of the details to come together can be tricky
[04:48:59] <pfred1> you have to be good at electronics and mechanics to make your own machine
[04:49:20] <Connor> I build robots as a hobby.. so... :)
[04:50:06] <pfred1> so why'd you pick MDF?
[04:50:15] <pfred1> that stuff can't even support its own weight
[04:50:57] <Connor> Because I had no way to build it at the time with anything else.. Alum was too expensive.. and no metal work tools.. no lathe, no mill.. just a drill press..
[04:51:19] <Connor> That machine was built with a table saw, hand drill and the colt router itself.
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[04:51:26] <pfred1> believe it or not you can cut aluminum pretty good with woodworking tools
[04:51:32] <Connor> most of it was assembled in my living room.
[04:51:39] <pfred1> like you can rip heavy aluminum plate on a tablesaw
[04:52:02] <pfred1> wear long sleeves thoug hthe chips come off pretty hot
[04:52:14] <pfred1> don't ask me how i know this ...
[04:52:52] <Connor> I know. I use my miter saw with carbide blade to cut 8020 and plate now..
[04:53:08] <pfred1> yup
[04:53:14] <pfred1> rips right through it
[04:53:18] <pfred1> just hang onto it
[04:53:42] <Connor> yea. and stop the saw after your through.. don't bring it back up still going.. or you'll rip off some of the teeth.
[04:54:46] <Connor> The Plexiglas lid came off of a old Dot matrix printer sound proofing box..
[04:55:25] <Connor> It was doubled hinged with that strip on the bottom.. I re did that way so I could open up the bottom and let longer parts tick out if needed.
[04:56:44] <pfred1> Connor did you ever see how I did my Z axis guides?
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[04:57:14] <Connor> don't recall if I did or not.
[04:57:38] <r00t4rd3d> i put a old table saw blade on backwards and cut metal/aluminum.
[04:58:29] <pfred1> Connor it cost me $2 http://i.imgur.com/PHZCW.jpg
[04:58:30] <Connor> r00t4rd3d: WHAT? Backwards WTF ?
[04:58:56] <pfred1> I've heard about running the blades backwards I just run them normal
[04:59:21] <pfred1> instead of running backwards just go with a lower tooth rake angle
[04:59:24] <r00t4rd3d> forward sometimes they will bind
[04:59:35] <pfred1> yes that means yo uhave too agressive of a rake
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[04:59:57] <r00t4rd3d> ive done that in a skill saw a qazillion times to cut metal roofing
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[05:00:18] <Connor> pfred1: Now, That is partial board with laminate on it...
[05:00:42] <pfred1> Connor yes but it is tubed
[05:00:42] <Connor> Larger particls than MDF..
[05:00:53] <Connor> Yea.. interesting setup.
[05:01:07] <pfred1> I think i can even cut it down
[05:01:17] <pfred1> because I was paranoid extended it would wobble
[05:01:31] <pfred1> it doesn't wobble
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[05:01:56] <pfred1> I saw a commercial machine with nested steel swuare tubes and I was like hey I could do something like that
[05:02:05] <Connor> My Z has rails on it.. The blocks are mounted and the section with the rails moves..
[05:02:21] <Connor> I have 6" clearance with the gantry and 4.25" Z movement..
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[05:02:35] <pfred1> then this is inside it to move the inside tube up and down http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHPKaHLzXes
[05:02:37] <Tecan> (fHPKaHLzXes) "Z_Bearings.avi" by "Paul Frederick" is "Tech" - Length: 0:01:00
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[05:03:27] <Connor> pfred1: Good way to keep the screw from getting stuff on it..
[05:03:30] <pfred1> with my crap TB6560 motor drivers i can get it to go 1.2 IP/S
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[05:03:44] <pfred1> 72 IPM?
[05:03:50] <pfred1> something like that
[05:04:29] <pfred1> I'm almost done with my Y axis now but I haven't taken any pictures of it yet
[05:04:41] <pfred1> it is ah different too
[05:05:09] <pfred1> I'm thinking by next week I should be done with it
[05:05:53] <pfred1> it is a skate bearing design
[05:06:39] <pfred1> sort of looks like engineered trusses
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[05:07:52] <pfred1> LinuxCNC running on Debian http://i.imgur.com/OjNG078.png
[05:08:42] <pfred1> Connor the fit for my motor clamp and the tube is accurate to 0.002 of an inch
[05:09:11] <r00t4rd3d> ReadError, http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:65706
[05:09:13] <pfred1> but I'm crediting dumb luck for that
[05:09:21] <r00t4rd3d> print me those so i can fuck with people
[05:10:09] <pfred1> Connor I got my Bosch router at a flea market for $15
[05:10:31] <pfred1> when i saw it I was like oh i know what I can do with that
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[05:19:23] <SadieD> Hi
[05:20:18] <SadieD> Would anyone be willing to indulge a few stupid questions?
[05:20:30] <pfred1> that's one
[05:20:46] <pfred1> no one seemed to mind either
[05:20:51] <SadieD> how many do I get?
[05:21:01] <pfred1> as many as you like
[05:21:20] <SadieD> Awesome
[05:22:11] <SadieD> I have a 1992 Haas VF-2 that needs a retrofit, I was thinking of going with Mach Motion but I've heard some good things about Linux CNC
[05:22:54] <pfred1> such as?
[05:23:46] <SadieD> It allows more control over the configuration of your machine
[05:23:48] <Connor> SadieD: You want full closed loop to the controller ?
[05:24:19] <pfred1> I wouldn't say more
[05:24:26] <pfred1> I would use the term total
[05:24:44] <SadieD> Connor: I'm not knowledgeable enough to know if that's necessary
[05:24:56] <SadieD> Connor: But I'm willing to learn
[05:25:30] <Connor> SadieD: Mach doesn't really support Servo's. You have to use a Motion Controller... which handles closed loop control. Mach just issues a Step/Dir command... and hopes the Motion controller can do it.
[05:25:38] <SadieD> pfred1: I'd prefer to use a GNU/Linux solution
[05:26:06] <Connor> Atom baed PC with Mesa 5i25 + 7i77 if your using servo's.
[05:26:08] <pfred1> SadieD you are futureproofed with open source
[05:26:28] <pfred1> with Mach who knows?
[05:26:42] <pfred1> the original guy just dissappeared one day
[05:27:17] <Connor> That's a big machine.
[05:27:38] <Connor> Are you planning on using existing servos ?
[05:27:42] <Connor> and drivers ?
[05:27:44] <SadieD> Would in be less expensive to go with a custom solution?
[05:28:14] <SadieD> Mach Motion is quoting ~$8000 for the control, interpreter, MPG, and PLCs
[05:28:24] <Connor> WOW
[05:28:42] <SadieD> Seems high to me
[05:29:12] <Connor> PC with Mesa cards.. $700.00
[05:29:23] <SadieD> Connor: Yes, my servos and drivers/amps are fine
[05:29:42] <Connor> What kind of input can the drivers/amps take?
[05:29:49] <Connor> and do they output encoder info ?
[05:30:26] <SadieD> I'm still gathering data, I'm waiting on the manufactured for documentation
[05:30:41] <SadieD> I'm kind of diving into all of this
[05:31:03] <Connor> I'm helping a guy who gutted a Cincinati Arrow 500 and replaced the servers / drviers and control system for less.
[05:31:27] <SadieD> Do you do contract work?
[05:31:51] <Connor> No. I do this as a hobby. and he's just a local guy whom I'm helping.
[05:32:26] <SadieD> Quite a hobby
[05:32:41] <pfred1> got to do something for fun
[05:32:41] <Connor> He had a Rf45 that he used for a long time running Mach3.. and then wanted a full VMC.. and sold it.. to fund the Arrow 500
[05:32:48] <SadieD> I haven't found a CNC serivce company that can do this sort of thing
[05:33:07] <Connor> I like doing stuff myself..
[05:33:13] <pfred1> me too
[05:33:35] <pfred1> my motto is screw it up myself and spend
[05:33:41] <Connor> Once you have details on the servos and driver/amps.. we can give you more direction on the control hardware needed.
[05:33:58] <SadieD> I'd like to do this retrofit myself, but there is quite a bit to learn. I haven't even built a RepRap yet
[05:34:18] <Connor> Don't rule out removing the existing servo's and amps and selling them for spare parts and buying new stuff..
[05:34:21] <pfred1> nothing from rep rap would be transferrible
[05:34:47] <Connor> It have a tool changer ?
[05:34:49] <pfred1> servos and steppers are different ballgames
[05:35:28] <Connor> My guy ordered TECO motors and Drivers from Mach Motion.. but they were setup for step/dir for use with Mach3. :(
[05:35:34] <SadieD> The Haas has an umbrella syle tool changer
[05:35:35] <pfred1> SadieD have you signed up at the website?
[05:35:54] <Connor> Tool changers are always the challenge..
[05:35:55] <pfred1> SadieD http://linuxcnc.org/
[05:35:55] <SadieD> pfred1: Not yet
[05:36:06] <SadieD> Connor: PLC, ladder programming?
[05:36:16] <pfred1> SadieD the forum is the best ah forum for the more involved issues
[05:36:41] <Connor> LinuxCNC does support Ladder.. and I think we now have internal support for doing tool changers without having to use ladder.
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[05:39:51] <Connor> SadieD: Question is what's your budget and what's your time frame...
[05:40:31] <SadieD> I'd like to go under $9k
[05:40:32] <pfred1> the thinner the shoestring the further you have to stretch it
[05:40:43] <SadieD> and ~2 months
[05:41:30] <Connor> You should be able to do WELL under that with LinuxCNC if you can use existing servo's and drivers/amps
[05:41:56] <Connor> and maybe a little over half if you have to gut everything and replace the servos and drivers/amps
[05:42:06] <pfred1> SadieD this might be some good bedtime reading http://linuxcnc.org/docs/EMC2_Integrator_Manual.pdf
[05:42:44] <pfred1> give you an overview of what you are up against
[05:43:21] <Connor> Between the IRC, Forum and Mailing list.. you have allot of support options.
[05:43:31] <SadieD> Well thanks for the info, I'm registering for the forum. I'll get all my information together.
[05:43:53] <pfred1> the manual will be good to start with as soon as possible
[05:44:10] <Connor> almost 2am.. Time for bed.. need to get up tomorrow so I can help him finish up his conversion.
[05:44:34] <SadieD> g'night, thanks
[05:47:15] <Connor> SadieD: One other thing. You can install LinuxCNC Simulator on a existing ubuntu install and play around with it.
[05:48:21] <SadieD> Connor: I'll do that
[05:49:02] <pfred1> yes familiarity is a good thing gives context
[05:49:50] <pfred1> be bold and use a flash crive save a plastic tree
[05:49:55] <pfred1> flash drive even
[05:50:05] <pfred1> plus it'll run better off flash
[05:54:41] <SadieD> Can I just run it from my Kubuntu partition??
[05:58:27] <pfred1> it will run live
[05:58:35] <pfred1> you don't have to install anything
[05:59:55] <pfred1> until you gain some basic familiarity you probably should check out a few live sessions
[06:00:16] <SadieD> pfred1: Coolio
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[06:00:40] <pfred1> I mean why just dive in?
[06:01:20] <SadieD> pfred1: Makes sense
[06:01:45] <SadieD> Thanks again for the info, I'm off
[06:01:47] <pfred1> then you can be like me and try to get LinuxCNC to run on Gentoo
[06:02:28] <pfred1> for that extra erg of speed
[06:02:47] <SadieD> pfred1: My brain is overloaded as it is
[06:03:04] <pfred1> yeah now I wouldn't reccommend yo utry to do that right off
[06:03:52] <pfred1> it is good to become immersed though
[06:04:17] <SadieD> pfred1: True
[06:04:37] <pfred1> I can't say a little knowledge never hurt anyone, because it has, but more knowledge usually straightens them out
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[06:04:47] <SadieD> pfred1: It's just a bit overwhelming
[06:05:25] <pfred1> the thing is to get exposed to all of the concepts then tackle the details
[06:05:32] <SadieD> pfred1: I'm a machinist/prgogrammer, this is all new to me
[06:05:56] <pfred1> well don't expect it all to click as you go hope that it clicks eventually
[06:06:24] <pfred1> it is like looking at a picture from an inch away you have to scan it a lot for it to become clear
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[06:06:49] <SadieD> pfred1: Sound advice. All the information is out there, I just have to absorb it.
[06:07:01] <pfred1> and absorb it over and over
[06:07:50] <pfred1> I guess in a way the process is kind of like building up a hologram
[06:08:02] <SadieD> Well I'll be back on for sure, I'm off to absorb some Rum.
[06:08:05] <pfred1> it starts out fuzzy but the details build up
[06:08:36] <SadieD> Night Fred
[06:09:02] <pfred1> yeah the best advise I can give is just keep on trudging through everything people can clear you up on what really baffles you
[06:09:52] <pfred1> read that manual
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[06:24:27] <r00t4rd3d> dog brought to the vet after eating a dozen pot brownies:
[06:24:28] <r00t4rd3d> http://i.imgur.com/vWevas9.jpg
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[06:33:37] <Valen> r00t4rd3d: :-,
[06:33:40] <Valen> :-<
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[06:46:09] <r00t4rd3d> damn, Austin might be getting Google Fiber.
[06:46:13] <r00t4rd3d> fuck texas
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[07:06:00] <DJ9DJ> moin
[07:10:00] <Valen> r00t4rd3d: in theory I'll be getting fiber within a year or so
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[07:16:35] <r00t4rd3d> you order some ceral from the US?
[07:18:39] <Loetmichel> mornin#
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[10:04:25] <andypugh> Last night my machine stopped. As it was exactly at the end of a toolpath I simply assumed that I had hit the wrong button in PyCAM, and only exported the roughing path.
[10:05:02] <Valen> never a good start andypugh
[10:05:11] <andypugh> Looking more closely the G-code has stopped at an M5, and the machine is dead. I have no idea why this would be.
[10:07:39] <andypugh> It just seems too much like a coincidence. But I have no idea why G-code execution stopped, or why the machine is now dead. It may be that the 24V supply has died, and that there is some tie-in to the machine enable that I have forgotten putting in.
[10:08:39] <andypugh> When I say "dead" the VFD is dead and the steppers don't move, but the 7i43 is fine, and encoder counters are working.
[10:09:12] <andypugh> I guess I need to pull it apart and check stuff.
[10:09:54] <Valen> start with a multimeter
[10:10:19] <Valen> rebooted the machine?
[10:10:35] <Valen> turned the power off to *everything* and started over?
[10:10:43] <andypugh> Yes, though I was _really_ hoping not to lose position as I am in the middle of a job :-(
[10:10:56] <Valen> it should save position
[10:10:58] <Valen> or at least it can
[10:11:05] <andypugh> Steppers....
[10:11:21] <Valen> it won't save position with steppers?
[10:11:29] <andypugh> And I proved that the steppers were dead by jogging.
[10:12:05] <andypugh> Ah well, best get to it.
[10:12:14] <Valen> fingers crossed
[10:12:42] <archivist> what is in common between vfd and steppers
[10:13:52] <Valen> got an I/O card or something?
[10:14:07] <archivist> power supply
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[10:46:54] <andypugh> PSUs are good. It is looking like an e-stop thing.
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[11:54:05] <jthornton> how do you get updates if you don't have an internet connection?
[11:55:52] <archivist> carrier pigeon
[11:56:27] <jthornton> what does the pigeon carry?
[11:56:32] <archivist> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1149
[11:58:03] <archivist> later updated http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2549.txt
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[11:59:29] <andypugh> Broken wire in the e-stop loop to the button on the milling head...
[11:59:51] <andypugh> Strange failure. It is in a cable chain and everything.
[12:00:09] <archivist> wire type?
[12:00:49] <archivist> single/stranded
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[12:02:09] <archivist> we used some stranded for print head ribbon solenoid, it failed rapidly due to the tight bend we had
[12:02:23] <andypugh> For no good reason, 4 x individually-screened 7x0.2
[12:02:39] <andypugh> 100mA current though. Maybe too much?
[12:03:15] <archivist> we replaced with gore flexible, no failures then at all
[12:03:36] <archivist> the way you bend cable really matters
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[12:07:59] <archivist> is the cable bundle causing a small radius bend?, there must be no small radius bending
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[12:43:38] <andypugh> No idea. It's been replaced and the machine is working again.
[12:44:00] <andypugh> I wonder if I put in some sort of program-stop linked to the e-stop circuit?
[12:46:24] <gabewillen> andy did you ever successfully get you high speed serial hal component working?
[12:47:33] <andypugh> For a while, yes. Then I lost it.
[12:48:06] <gabewillen> maybe you should clean up after your self and you won't loose things so easily... :) kidding
[12:48:20] <andypugh> I lost it when cleaning up files, actually.
[12:48:29] <gabewillen> lol
[12:48:37] <gabewillen> i hate that
[12:48:42] <andypugh> But as it was no longer being used at the time, I didnt worry about it too mush.
[12:49:22] <gabewillen> i had a borrowed copy of windows 7 i use from time to time. I seem to have deleted it and it wasn't backed up on my server. My favorite borrowing website was shut down and now i don't have it
[12:50:30] <andypugh> gabewillen: Here is a sample .comp for using the Mesa UART. http://git.linuxcnc.org/gitweb?p=linuxcnc.git;a=blob;f=src/hal/drivers/mesa_uart.comp;h=be8bf84d4d649f7eb756df6641457ba00fa52631;hb=refs/heads/master
[12:51:36] <gabewillen> im not using the mesa though, i have a alpha rtusb driver working on my 3.6.27 kernel. I can stream 1.5mbs from usb serial on my arm processor. was looking for some more examples
[12:52:05] <andypugh> Ah, well, I don't think my stuff is any help at all.
[12:52:48] <andypugh> The actual serial stuff is all done in the FPGA.
[12:53:03] <gabewillen> ahh, this is strictly from arm to pc
[12:53:24] <gabewillen> its working pretty good for now. Though i don't know if it will work on the 2.6xx kernel
[12:54:30] <gabewillen> i might write a cross platform(microprocessor/arm) C library for interfacing with hal directly similar to that of hostmot2 and mesa
[12:54:37] <gabewillen> over usb
[12:54:56] <gabewillen> i know the all about the redflags when it comes to usb and realtime
[12:55:14] <andypugh> hal_input does a lot of what might be needed.
[12:55:44] <gabewillen> Im using it for reading 7200 cpr encoder.... just got it working at 12:00 AM last night
[12:55:57] <gabewillen> little 90mhz cortex 2
[12:56:02] <gabewillen> i had laying around
[12:57:55] <gabewillen> i did finally succesfully write an fpga program.... last night wow, what a steep learning curve that is.
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[12:59:14] <gabewillen> i will admit thought fpga's are pretty bad ass.... the abilitly to whip up an digital circuitry you want on the spot is awesome.
[13:00:11] <gabewillen> i have never been so excited to see an led flash before
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[13:18:31] <AR__> lol
[13:19:20] <AR__> gabewillen, verilog or vhdl
[13:26:05] <L84Supper> http://linuxgizmos.com/mantis-hexapod-robot-embedded-linux-computer/
[13:27:34] <L84Supper> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1h9Mw-s9mzI&feature=youtu.be 2:30 video with > :30 of credits
[13:27:37] <Tecan> (1h9Mw-s9mzI) "Mantis - Two Tonne Turbo Diesel Hexapod Walking Machine" by "winchymatt" is "Tech" - Length: 0:02:32
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[13:29:49] <L84Supper> nice use of CAN bus outside of an auto
[13:33:09] <jdh> CAN on dive computers and marine electronics
[13:34:20] <L84Supper> not sure why they chose this: iCOP PC/104 SBC, based on a DMP Vortex86DX CPU
[13:34:44] <L84Supper> it's powered by a 2.2 liter turbo diesel
[13:35:27] <L84Supper> maybe the RPi was out of stock? :)
[13:35:59] <andypugh> He probably wanted the PC104 format CAN interface.
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[13:37:32] <andypugh> I guess it isn't "for" anything?
[13:37:39] <L84Supper> pcw_home: http://linuxgizmos.com/99-sbc-runs-embedded-linux-on-1ghz-dual-core-arm-soc/
[13:38:09] <Felix29> hi there
[13:38:16] <andypugh> Hi
[13:38:55] <Tom_itx> andypugh you didn't fatigue your estop wire fixing the PSU the other day did you?
[13:39:06] <andypugh> Different machine.
[13:39:11] <Tom_itx> oh
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[13:39:57] <andypugh> It's actually quite annoying. There are several jobs I could be doing, all of which need the lathe, which is doing a long CNC milling job...
[13:42:41] <Felix29> L84Supper: I am the coors you met a few days ago
[13:43:00] <Felix29> I guess people think it's a stupid nickname, so I changed it :)
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[13:45:02] <IchGuckLive> hi all B)
[13:45:21] <Tom_itx> Felix29, i just figured you lived in colorado
[13:46:14] <L84Supper> Felix29: I thought coors was fine, unfortunately IRC is the playground of many petty tyrants and the self absorbed
[13:46:18] <IchGuckLive> colorado is a nice state
[13:46:52] <IchGuckLive> felix is a european name
[13:46:56] <Felix29> Well, I'm in indiana
[13:47:10] <Felix29> and from germany, so that explains the name i suppose :P
[13:47:12] <Tom_itx> i noticed that the other day
[13:47:26] <IchGuckLive> Felix29: im in germany B)
[13:48:48] <Felix29> you don't see it in writing, but people always notice when i speak
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[15:03:08] <IchGuckLive> im off by
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[15:16:51] <skunkworks> JT-Shop: how are you physically interfacing your vfd using serial?
[15:27:10] <DJ9DJ> i assume with wires ;)
[15:28:20] <pfred1> maybe they went with an optical interface?
[15:28:29] <pfred1> then it would be with fibers
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[15:28:53] <pfred1> would be nice isolation that's for sure
[15:29:19] <DJ9DJ> yeah, or by radio ;)
[15:29:35] <pfred1> that might be difficult to accomplish in a noisy environment
[15:30:00] <pfred1> it'd be impressive if you could manage to do it though
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[15:38:48] <JT-Shop> skunkworks: yes via modbus
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[16:32:41] <mhaberler> anybody using hardy on an amd64 platform ? please get in touch with me
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[16:38:57] <pfred1> mhaberler hardy heron?
[16:39:03] <archivist> mhaberler, I have that one this pc I am using
[16:39:49] <mhaberler> yes, ubuntu 8.04 with an RTAI kernel on an amd64 platform, I am trying to find the people who actually use that
[16:40:11] <pfred1> I can never keep Ubuntu's names straight with their versions
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[16:40:30] <pfred1> I just setup LinuxCNC on Debian Squeeze
[16:40:43] <pfred1> it was a pain but I finally managed to do it
[16:41:06] <pfred1> I need to try Gentoo again
[16:41:54] <pfred1> so I'm pretty up on the kernel config for an AMD64 now because that is the system I did it on
[16:42:10] <pfred1> although I set it up for 32 bits
[16:42:36] <pfred1> still being multicore that does make it a little different than a single core
[16:43:12] <pfred1> you have to pick choose sparse IRQs for it to work
[16:43:16] <mhaberler> thats fine - I am specifically looking for people who run hardy and want something newer than v2.5_branch
[16:43:35] <pfred1> I used kernel 2.6.38.8
[16:43:51] <pfred1> it is the latest the tarball of RTAI will patch against
[16:43:58] <pfred1> I couldn't get their cvs to build at all
[16:44:24] <pfred1> well I didn't try too hard either it failed and I was like back to the tarball
[16:44:25] <mhaberler> well that's what we get for using university fallout. Anyway:
[16:44:33] <archivist> this is not running rtai though
[16:44:40] <mhaberler> the issue is as follows:
[16:44:44] <pfred1> xenomai?
[16:45:26] <carper64_lb> gong to setup on 12.04.2 in the next cpl of days using the xenomai kernel
[16:45:33] <mhaberler> the new RTOS branch will not build on RTAI in sim mode, and it needs some absurd workarounds for rt mode
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[16:45:56] <mhaberler> this is why I suggest dropping support for hardy/amd64 after v2.5_branch
[16:46:18] <pfred1> ah I think i see what you mean
[16:46:23] <mhaberler> which mean that master (into which the RTOS work likely will be merged) will not work on hardy
[16:46:40] <mhaberler> but then I still have to find a scenario why one would ever want to do that
[16:46:42] <pfred1> hardy is pretty old now
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[16:48:10] <mhaberler> the issue on the table therefore is: I propose to declare hardy end-of-life after v2.5_branch, and want to hear from folks which are a) affected b) cannot upgrade for good reasons to a postwar base platform) c) need to run master for some reason
[16:48:30] <pfred1> isn't hardy EOL as far as Ubuntu is concerned?
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[16:48:44] <mhaberler> "Ubuntu 8.04's support ended on 12 May 2011 for desktops" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ubuntu_releases#Ubuntu_8.04_LTS_.28Hardy_Heron.29
[16:48:55] <pfred1> like are there even any repos that host it now?
[16:48:56] <mhaberler> but this project has a fad with collector item releases
[16:49:03] <archivist> I still have hardy on the machines too but 32 bit
[16:49:41] <pfred1> archivist yes but if you wanted to install any software you couldn't just apt-get it today well not without some fooling around
[16:49:47] <mhaberler> it is installable on vintage amd64 machines - it fails for instance on my ASUS E45 - the kernel doesnt come up properly any more (hardware built 2011)
[16:50:11] <pfred1> mhaberler you can put almost any kernel you like into almost any Linux distro
[16:50:52] <mhaberler> sure, but this is a management of expectations question, not really a technical one
[16:50:57] <pfred1> there are some compatibility issues with other system utilities that limit how far you can advance
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[16:51:44] <pfred1> like Debian Squeeze ships with 2.6.32 I think but I bumped it to 2.6.38
[16:52:11] <archivist> LTS should mean LTS as once a machine is working you dont want to be futsing with it too much
[16:52:17] <mhaberler> this question is really directed at the folks who arent that familiar with upgrading themselves
[16:52:36] <pfred1> archivist some knuckleheads worry about security updates more than I think they should
[16:52:42] <mhaberler> amen - that includes installing master and expecting it to work 2 years after platform EOL
[16:53:12] <pfred1> I mean I ran SUSE 8.0 for about 8.0 years before that system self immolated in the dead of the night on me
[16:53:23] <mhaberler> well if one thinks an RT kernel is a viable firewall she might be in for surprises
[16:53:31] <pfred1> had nothing to do with Linux was a total hardware meltdown
[16:54:15] <pfred1> usually after a year or so I stop installing new software on systems
[16:54:23] <pfred1> by then I have about all I want
[16:55:07] <archivist> boost seems to break anything it is involved with, that normally stops me upgrading software
[16:55:28] <pfred1> really?
[16:56:06] <mhaberler> where do you get that from? I still have to see a problem with it
[16:56:23] <pfred1> yeah my CNC PC I am not interested in anything other than LinuxCNC running on it
[16:56:37] <pfred1> heck I want to kill cron and the loggers
[16:57:12] <mhaberler> archivist: next time you find 'boost breaks anything' I do expect you to file a bug report
[16:57:30] <mhaberler> that's the way to do it, sorry
[16:57:40] <archivist> has been in other projects, I hate it
[16:57:47] <pfred1> bah who wants to bug folks with bug reports?
[16:58:16] <mhaberler> if such statements are the alternative, I do prefer a bug report
[16:58:24] <archivist> I dont run the latest like others do
[16:58:40] <pfred1> yeah when stuff breaks I figure I'm doing something wrong
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[16:58:53] <mhaberler> did you ever have a unsresolved problem with boost _and_ linuxcnc master?
[16:59:08] <archivist> I am fed up with the "must upgrade a pile" that use of libraries like that cause
[16:59:47] <pfred1> archivist my opinion varies on upgrades once a system runs how I like it I am usually less inclined to change anything on it
[17:00:20] <pfred1> I mean when I'm good I'm good
[17:00:28] <archivist> pfred1, I agre if not broken dont change
[17:00:33] <pfred1> why tempt the fates?
[17:01:08] <pfred1> some folks like the gentoo crowd they're upgrade fanatics
[17:01:21] <pfred1> new stuff came out 5 minutes ago I have to install it!
[17:03:30] <pfred1> in order to get RTAI to build i had to downgrade a bunch of stuff and they thought I was nuts
[17:04:35] <pfred1> well the biggest problem was python for LinuxCNC I guess
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[17:06:15] <L84Supper> sounds more like Arch linux than Gentoo
[17:06:20] <IchGuckLive> will there be a new liveCD including 2.5.2
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[17:07:44] <pfred1> heh I built and ran 2.6.0~pre
[17:07:44] <IchGuckLive> hi chopper79
[17:07:50] <pfred1> http://i.imgur.com/FUL7PwG.png
[17:07:55] <IchGuckLive> and did the hack of thc work
[17:08:14] <IchGuckLive> pfred1: how does not
[17:08:34] <IchGuckLive> pfred1: whar r are yoiu on
[17:09:02] <pfred1> IchGuckLive I did it in Debian Squeeze but I may give Gentoo another crack now that I've worked out all of the bugs
[17:09:23] <IchGuckLive> why gentoo
[17:09:37] <IchGuckLive> all the big CAD CAM are on ubuntu
[17:09:38] <pfred1> because i can custom build the whole system for the arch
[17:09:52] <pfred1> actually the kernel that ships with LinuxCNC is a mess
[17:10:03] <pfred1> how it is configured
[17:10:12] <IchGuckLive> ah so this is the goal for the manufactures to go linuxcnc on there mashines
[17:10:12] <pfred1> not too optimal for anyone really
[17:10:33] <pfred1> strange i couldn't even get the kernel source for LinuxCNC either
[17:11:24] <pfred1> there must be some trick to it that I don't know
[17:11:26] <IchGuckLive> there are lots of manufactures reliing on linuxcnc and get CProggers on his to tranfer the code to there system
[17:12:05] <pfred1> because i can usually manage to get kernel sources for systems that are dpkg maintained
[17:12:25] <pfred1> well always up til when i tried for LinuxCNC
[17:12:30] <IchGuckLive> pfred1: im not on your thinking stay clear and go open as mutch as needed
[17:12:57] <pfred1> but I did have the config file
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[17:14:27] <pfred1> diffing that against one of my custom configs was somewhat illuminating
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[17:27:54] <IchGuckLive> Felix29: ?
[17:37:21] <andypugh> mhaberler: I am running a machine made in 2003 with Dual Xeons (the original, first, Xeon) and even I am not running Hardy any more.
[17:38:43] <mhaberler> well I didnt have you in mind for that question ;)
[17:39:37] <mhaberler> the whole point of the new RTOS work is to support _newer_ platforms, and that gets at odds with supporting stuff which is EOL for years now
[17:40:11] <archivist> the poor in society have to use what they can get their hands on
[17:40:42] <mhaberler> are you saying one cannot upgrade from hardy to say lucid for monetary reasons?
[17:42:14] <archivist> I use older hardware for monetary reasons, I did try lucid for a a few minutes for a job(server) but went back to hardy for that
[17:43:13] <archivist> investing time in learning an os and its foibles is a cost too
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[17:44:12] <bedah> <-- is using linux mint now, it's debian as i am used to it, now blinky and effects like in original debian/ubuntu
[17:44:24] <bedah> -now+no
[17:45:34] <bedah> hm.. maybe it would be worth to make linux mint the basis for linuxcnc
[17:45:51] <IchGuckLive> im on 10.04 its amazing all telescop printer mashines router plasmas robots even the refrituater on EIB takes it
[17:46:27] <IchGuckLive> the hole house system managment
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[17:52:47] <andypugh> archivist: Though there is the other question of whether your old machines need any features that are not in 2.5.2
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[17:54:03] <archivist> not at the moment no
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[17:55:36] <jdh> http://raleigh.craigslist.org/tls/3725596266.html
[17:55:52] <jdh> any good?
[17:57:19] <archivist> looks usable, has screw cutting gearbox
[17:58:00] <archivist> possibly has self acting facing
[17:59:38] <jdh> never heard that term
[18:00:23] <IchGuckLive> jdh: lots of work on this
[18:00:32] <IchGuckLive> does not look to be that stable
[18:00:39] <archivist> look at the middle lever on the apron looks like it has 3 positions
[18:01:12] <jdh> like a power feed for teh cross slide?
[18:01:24] <archivist> yes exactly that
[18:01:46] <archivist> my southbend has it
[18:03:16] <jdh> In 1967 a minor change was made to the apron-mounted mechanism that engaged the (standard-fit) power cross feed with the provision of a simple, ball-ended toggle arm to slide the selector button in and out.
[18:03:30] <archivist> http://www.lathes.co.uk/atlas/
[18:04:10] <jdh> has no belt, so no way to tell if it really works.
[18:04:49] <IchGuckLive> jdh: 1967 way older then the most here
[18:05:24] <IchGuckLive> im off by for today ! B)
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[18:06:38] <andypugh> That's about the perfect age for a machine tool.
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[18:08:24] <jdh> I could put it next to my Jet 9x20 that has been sitting in the corner under a tarp since I bought it.
[18:08:35] <pfred1> sweet
[18:08:51] <pfred1> does metal get harder as it ages?
[18:09:10] <pfred1> or is that just a delusion I suffer from?
[18:10:01] <archivist> cast iron should be aged before machining for best results
[18:10:06] <pfred1> I can even swear I've noticed it in some metal I've owned for a very long time in my life
[18:10:32] <pfred1> like i have these really crappy punches I bought whe n Iwas a little kid
[18:10:39] <pfred1> they're not nearly as crappy today
[18:11:19] <pfred1> I swear they are harder than they used to be
[18:12:58] <pfred1> I have some really old woodworking tools too and the steel of them can be pretty hard I can imagine it might not have been as hard a long time ago
[18:13:49] <pfred1> I know concrete never stops getting harder as it ages
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[18:14:23] <pcw_home> I know glass get harder to the point that its almost impossible to cut after a number of years
[18:14:31] <pfred1> well glass flows
[18:14:40] <SWPadnos> pfred1, if you actually use the punches, they may be getting hardened by the pounding
[18:14:46] <SWPadnos> a little like railroad steel
[18:14:48] <pfred1> and it gets more brittle
[18:15:13] <pfred1> SWPadnos I thought about that and they were so bad for so many years I didn't really use them
[18:15:22] <SWPadnos> heh
[18:15:38] <SWPadnos> well, they could be air-hardening steel or something funny
[18:15:55] <pfred1> I thought that meant after being heated up?
[18:16:03] <pfred1> not just sitting in the air
[18:16:06] <archivist> glass flowing is supposed to be an old wives tail, think about toughened glass
[18:16:25] <pfred1> yes I've heard old windows were just made badly
[18:16:42] <SWPadnos> no, some machine steels (like for tools or jigs or whatever) are air-hardening or oil-hardening
[18:16:46] <pfred1> but i have seen old windows that were all kinds of distorted and i can't imagine anyone put them in like that
[18:16:50] <SWPadnos> never used any, but I've seen them at McMaster
[18:17:11] <archivist> there are other effect in cutting too, make sure you clean the glass and score it properly
[18:17:29] <pfred1> nah old glass doesn't cut right
[18:17:39] <pfred1> I've heard it from glaziers that knew their trade
[18:18:03] <archivist> pfred1, old glass was flattened from a blown tube
[18:18:12] <pfred1> might be due to some strange pitting and getting dirt in it though
[18:18:38] <archivist> I have cut curves in old glass, was fun
[18:18:46] <pfred1> another trick to cutting glass is using kerosene to lubricate the cutting wheel
[18:19:00] <pfred1> pros don't cut glass dry
[18:19:18] <archivist> seen that and its true
[18:19:26] <pfred1> if yo uwatch them they have a little tin of crap they dip the cutter into
[18:19:31] <andypugh> <puts on materials scientist hat>. Oil-hardening or Air-hardneing in steels only decribes how they need to be quenched from red-hot.
[18:19:50] <pfred1> that crap is kerosene
[18:20:10] <archivist> kerosene/paraffin
[18:20:27] <andypugh> Old glass really is very dificult to gut. This is due to tiny amounts of water being absorbed, just enough to put the outer skin into a slight compression, which toughens it.
[18:20:48] <pfred1> yeah the you can't cut old glass thing isn't a myth
[18:20:58] <pfred1> I mean yo ucan cut it but it isn't nearly as good as fresh glass
[18:21:04] <pcw_home> Thats been my experience
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[18:21:23] <pfred1> I'm like 50::50 on oldglass and 100% on fresh
[18:21:53] <sadara> Is a M40x1.5 thread threaded onto a 40mm od rod?
[18:22:59] <pfred1> I never understood metric threading
[18:23:20] <andypugh> So, I was stood there looking at my work on the mill, wondering how I could drill holes in the right places to flip it and get the right alignment. Then I remembered it is sat on a CNC milling machine :-)
[18:23:35] <andypugh> sadara: Yes.
[18:23:42] <pfred1> I mean I've read about it and right after I've read about it I can suss out what is going on but whatever is going on never sticks with me
[18:23:55] <andypugh> Mecause 40mm pitch on a 1.5mm diameter would be very difficult to cut :-)
[18:24:02] <archivist> sadara, cut or rolled
[18:24:31] <pfred1> I made some not half bad acme taps out of acme threaded rod
[18:24:49] <archivist> either way it fits in a 40mm hole
[18:24:55] <pfred1> only trouble is the threat they cut is too tight because the tap isn't clearance sized
[18:25:17] <pfred1> but I've cut shallow threads into mild steel with them
[18:25:46] <pfred1> I did that for a really snug fit on my lead screw stop collars
[18:26:01] <pfred1> I still have grub screws in them though
[18:26:13] <andypugh> Actually, I do keep intending to make a table of threading depths. 40mm is the nominal diameter that it would be if the threads came to a sharp point, but they have a flat so are a bit smaller. Then there is the fact that a nut has clearance (never try to wind a tap into a die-nut!)
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[18:27:25] <sadara> Thanks!
[18:27:26] <pfred1> I've seen people making some pretty gnarly homemade taps on the net
[18:27:46] <andypugh> The only really easy thing to calculate with metric threads is the tapping drill size. Just subtract the pitch from the diameter.
[18:27:49] <pfred1> so when I made mine I wrote an article about how I did it http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-an-Acme-Tap/
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[18:28:56] <andypugh> So, turning to 40mm with a formed insert then threading to the expected depth with that insert will give you a very much oversize thread. Though this is true of any thread, not just metric.
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[18:29:40] <pfred1> I still need to find the right hole to drill for tapping my lead nuts
[18:29:49] <pfred1> so far I'm on the tight side
[18:30:39] <pfred1> plastic is pretty stretchy though
[18:31:05] <pfred1> I'm making my lead nuts out of HDPE
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[19:35:31] <Nick001-Shop> I have a compound slide that has steppers which I have running. The other end of the ball screws have a brake to hold it in position. Is there a way of operating them automatically when I call a move command or do I have to go the M function route to clamp and unclamp them?
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[19:50:08] <Connor_Arrow500> Heya
[19:51:34] <Connor_Arrow500> Working on Pete's Arrow 500... We're getting some realtime delay mesgs..
[19:52:12] <cradek> usually a stepper has plenty of holding power. I've never heard of a stepper being powerful enough to move an axis but not hold it in place.
[19:52:20] <pcw_home> what servo thread rate?
[19:52:31] <Connor_Arrow500> 500,000
[19:52:47] <pcw_home> that will be marginal on a Atom MB
[19:53:00] <Connor_Arrow500> okay.. back it down to 1Millon ?
[19:53:12] <pcw_home> I would
[19:53:56] <pcw_home> you wont gain much with a 2 KHz thread rate unless you are running torque mode drives
[19:54:09] <Connor_Arrow500> okay. nope. just Speed mode.
[19:54:29] <Connor_Arrow500> Pete's standing by me.. He says Hi!
[19:55:12] <pcw_home> yeah the velocity loop on the drive should 'keep on the road' for 1 ms
[19:55:56] <pcw_home> Hi pete from pete
[19:56:04] <Connor_Arrow500> ROFL
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[20:01:32] <andypugh> Nick001-Shop: Sorry to take so long to reply, but someone did once come up with a scheme to lock-out his Z axis when not moving.
[20:02:38] <Nick001-Shop> Any write-ups somewhere?
[20:02:59] <JT-Shop> my vmc has a lock on the Z axis but it is off when the drive is in control and goes on when the drive goes to off IIRC
[20:03:01] <andypugh> I am trying to find it.
[20:03:18] <andypugh> But as Cradek said, it is probably unnecessary
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[20:04:12] <JT-Shop> unless your trying to hold the axis when power is off...
[20:04:19] <pcw_home> it does seem odd with step motors unless it there to keep it from moving when powered down
[20:04:25] <pcw_home> Ha
[20:04:38] <JT-Shop> ^^^ what Peter said :)
[20:04:43] <Nick001-Shop> need to keep the 1 axis from vibrating when the other axis is drilling a hole
[20:04:44] <archivist> how coarse is the leadscrew
[20:05:28] <archivist> and steppers on odd microsteps will not hold that well
[20:05:39] <Nick001-Shop> about 0.125 lead - 8 turns to the inch
[20:06:44] <Nick001-Shop> not using microstepping
[20:08:19] <Nick001-Shop> slide assembly came with them installed and seems like a good ides for what I'm doing
[20:08:51] <andypugh> Nick001-Shop: This is the thread I was thinking of: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.distributions.emc.user/26042/focus=26053
[20:09:32] <andypugh> But you can probably do it with just HAL, a timedelay that resets on the output of a ddt.
[20:11:45] <pcw_home> I think peak stepmotor torque would be 90 electrical degrees from null or 1/1600"
[20:11:47] <pcw_home> so unless that's too much, I don't imagine you will gain much by locking
[20:12:36] <pcw_home> unless the stepmotors cant hold against the forces
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[20:15:48] <Nick001-Shop> Don't know if they'll hold or not. Still have to build a 3 spindle block to mount on top of the slides and then try it out. guess I'll just leave then energized to test it out. Then see if I have to ask again.
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[20:28:49] <archivist> you should always keep steppers energised for the holding torque
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[20:31:34] <sadara> Is there currently a method of connecting a "single ended/unbalanced" 5v quadrature encoder directly to a parport/breakout? ( this is for a gantry stepper, however lets not get into that for the moment)
[20:31:42] <Nick001-Shop> the stepper will stay energized - the brake is on the opposite end of the ballscrew and is used to make sure the slide stays in position while holes are being drilled and tapped
[20:32:26] <pcw_home> sadara: yes this is supported by linuxcnc
[20:32:52] <pcw_home> (by the encoder component)
[20:33:07] <sadara> What sort of speed will it be able to accept? (parport hardware wise, not rpm)
[20:33:32] <sadara> 100hz?
[20:33:36] <pcw_home> perhaps 1/2 the base thread rate (if you include margin)
[20:33:42] <sadara> ok
[20:33:52] <sadara> great, thanks
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[20:36:08] <sadara> the next question, and I would bet that this has been covered a lot, is is there any benifit to including the encoders in the loop? I only included the encoders to generate a fault if the steppers miss a step
[20:36:55] <sadara> From my research a cpl of years ago, there was no advantage, and several disadvantages
[20:37:30] <sadara> There now seem to be step/dir drivers with encoder input, so I was wondering if anything has changed?
[20:38:11] <pcw_home> There are use cases where its is a advantage (say good linear scale and high ustep ratio step drive)
[20:39:05] <pcw_home> this is not the same as commercial close loop stepdrives (which use the stepmotors as servos)
[20:39:24] <pcw_home> closed loop I should say
[20:40:18] <sadara> I'm trying to avoid ustepping for the moment... however adding linear encoders is feasible
[20:41:08] <sadara> also, I read of a system that, when detecting a missed ustep, would subtract a ustep from the path of the other axis, and pulse a couple more volts into the step drivers. I can see how this could work with emc2, but would it be worth it?
[20:41:11] <pcw_home> if you use feedback you want a high ustep ration
[20:41:53] <pcw_home> ratio
[20:42:05] <sadara> ^^^^ could you expand on that? I'm not following
[20:42:31] <pcw_home> if you have a feedback system you want small steps in the corrections
[20:43:57] <sadara> I have 200 step motors, connected to a 5mm lead screw, so this system will be limited by my step rate as it is. The encoder is only 400pulse
[20:44:32] <sadara> should I be using 1/4 stepping to match my step size to the encoder ?
[20:44:45] <pcw_home> in that case I would just use the encoder as a check
[20:45:06] <sadara> yeah, thats what I thought
[20:45:31] <sadara> because this is a double stepper gantry, I don't want it to rack
[20:46:00] <sadara> is there a cheap step generator compatible with EMC yet?
[20:46:15] <pcw_home> if you had a 100 nm linear scale and 256 ustep drives you would be better with a closed loop system
[20:46:38] <pcw_home> hardware stepgen?
[20:47:01] <sadara> yeah
[20:47:07] <sadara> MESA?
[20:47:25] <pcw_home> if you are no ustepping theres not much point
[20:48:35] <sadara> this is a well designed (engineered) gantry, 3m x, 2m y, 600mm z. The gantry is limited by step rate already
[20:49:08] <pcw_home> really depends on your drives. if you have high performance drives then a hardware stepgen will make a big difference
[20:49:41] <sadara> Not sure about "high performance" but they were cheap -> wantai motor
[20:50:04] <pcw_home> what voltage?
[20:50:21] <sadara> one sec...
[20:50:25] * sadara getting drives
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[20:51:39] <sadara> the drives are 80v max ( i'm not sure I would be comfortable running them at that though
[20:51:42] <pcw_home> (you can sort of draw a dividing line between the 24V-35V drives that use a single chip and better 50 to 80V drives)
[20:51:55] <sadara> ahhh
[20:52:15] <pcw_home> so a hardware stepgen would probably help
[20:52:19] <sadara> no, proper drives, not TDA ones
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[20:53:25] <sadara> I'm running 1700 oz nema 34 steppers, with 6 amp drives and 48v 8 amp supplies each
[20:54:20] <sadara> the drives support 10'000 step pulses per rev (that seems ... a lot)
[20:54:52] <sadara> I'm not sure on the max frequency
[20:55:17] <pcw_home> in my experience there is not much to gain above about 32 usteps (6400)
[20:56:15] <pcw_home> (6400/rev)
[20:56:20] <sadara> yeah, unless your AC driving ( i think it's called wave driving?) but I don't think these drives have a +/- 10v input
[20:56:29] * sadara googles for max useful torque and rpm
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[20:57:12] <sadara> I havn't worked through this with anyone else, so could you let me know if this all sounds reasonable?
[20:58:26] <pcw_home> I may have odd standards for "reasonable"
[20:58:52] <sadara> don't we all
[20:59:13] <sadara> there is no torque curve / RPM on the website
[20:59:57] <pcw_home> thats rather important for a stepmotor/drive combo
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[21:00:21] <sadara> yeah, there are torque curves, just not for this exacp motor
[21:00:29] <sadara> s/exacp/exact
[21:00:47] <sadara> what would you guess the max RPM would be for the steppers? 1200? 1600?
[21:01:02] <sadara> (at 0 torque)
[21:01:51] <pcw_home> Hard to guess
[21:03:02] <sadara> I was reading the wrong drive btw, this one has 51200 Pulses per rev, and is 8amp peak, 5.6 amps continious
[21:03:30] <pcw_home> thats common = 256 ustep max
[21:03:53] <sadara> ok
[21:04:34] <pcw_home> note that a single 1/256 step may not even make the rotor move
[21:05:18] <sadara> lol, the windings arn't that accurate anyway, the motor could move backwards
[21:05:31] <sadara> for serveral 1/256 steps
[21:06:08] <sadara> ok, assuming 1500 rpm 0 torque, that is a step rate of 5000 (this may be a little high, but would be a good worst case)
[21:06:08] <pcw_home> yes and the torque vs displacement is very flat at small dispacements
[21:06:19] <R2E4> hi all
[21:06:37] <sadara> hi
[21:06:50] <sadara> the quadrature encoder would be outputing 10Khz
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[21:07:00] <R2E4> pcw: the R2E4 is working 100%
[21:07:08] <pcw_home> so thats easily doable with software stepping (and counting)
[21:07:24] <R2E4> Got the iron squared away and it powered right up.
[21:07:33] <sadara> ok, thats where I am now
[21:07:38] <andypugh> sadara: 1500rpm is very optimistic for steppers
[21:07:41] <pcw_home> R2E4: Great!
[21:08:08] <andypugh> You are running high voltage, which helps, but NEMA34, which doesn't.
[21:08:32] <pcw_home> maybe not so optimistic at 0 torque
[21:09:10] <andypugh> No, there is that, but who cares about zero torque? That means you can't stop from your 1500rpm cruise.
[21:09:39] <pcw_home> you can stop , you just dont know where :-)
[21:09:44] <sadara> I'm rying to work to worst case
[21:10:09] <sadara> lol, never concidered that... (should have got steppers with a break :) )
[21:10:25] <pcw_home> but hardly anyone would do full steps
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[21:10:31] <sadara> if I go to 64 usteps (again, worst case) and I want to still be able to get to max rpm, is it just 64 * 5000 as my step rate?
[21:10:41] <andypugh> Yes.
[21:10:48] <pcw_home> yes 320 KHz
[21:10:53] <DJ9DJ> gn8
[21:10:56] <sadara> 0.3Mhz
[21:11:22] <sadara> a standard drives even capable of accepting that?
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[21:11:33] <pcw_home> sure
[21:11:36] <andypugh> A secondary issue is step granularity. A 10kHz base-thread can do 10kHz steps. Or 5kHz steps, Or 3.33kHz steps. Those are big speed jumps for a motor.
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[21:13:13] <andypugh> That was why I went for a Mesa card on my machine, but as my steppers are topping out at about 300rpm I didn't actually see any speed improvement. I did see a "suddenly I have plenty of IO" improvement.
[21:13:32] <sadara> aside from mesa, are there any other step gens out there?
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[21:14:20] <andypugh> sadara: http://pico-systems.com/osc2.5/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=30
[21:14:21] <sadara> emc compatible?
[21:14:42] <sadara> anything ... cheaper?
[21:14:49] <pcw_home> Picosystems, the RT-8P8C
[21:15:12] <andypugh> Cheaper than the $79 that a Mesa 5i25 costs?
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[21:15:37] <sadara> I'm not going to buy a Mesa 5i25
[21:16:20] <andypugh> 7i43? About the same price.
[21:16:34] <sadara> no, I'm getting a lot more mesa stuff
[21:16:45] <sadara> I'm the guy with the weird servos...
[21:16:51] <sadara> 320v resolvers?
[21:17:07] <andypugh> Are the resolvers 320V, or just the motors?
[21:17:29] <sadara> if they don't co-operate, I will see
[21:18:05] <sadara> I wanted to try something else
[21:18:21] <andypugh> This is my machine. 320V and resolvers on the servos: http://youtu.be/haO5ZJq-Y3c
[21:18:44] <sadara> I figure if I'm going to spend lot's of $$$ on a mesa system, I should try something else for the steppers
[21:18:48] <pcw_home> 320V sounds like a motor not a resolver (unless you like expensive smoke)
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[21:19:25] <gene77> Hi all
[21:19:58] <sadara> yes, the moters are 320v, but I don't have the drives, I was asking you about the mesa 8i20, but it wond do that little current
[21:20:35] <gene77> I need a math lesson, see figure 15.4 in the gcode reference
[21:20:35] <sadara> ~100 watt, 320v brushless dc motors
[21:21:11] <sadara> pcw_home: have you concidered knock out a low current HV servo drive?
[21:21:22] <pcw_home> thats tough unless you find the original drives...
[21:21:47] <sadara> driving them isn't that hard
[21:21:54] <andypugh> 100W 300V is a _tiny_ current.
[21:22:05] <sadara> yeah
[21:22:16] <gene77> I am doing the ends of an = sign, but the top bar is at a plus value, the bottom bar is at a much less negative value. How do I calc a working g2 J value
[21:22:23] <pcw_home> yes maybe 1.5 A peak
[21:22:40] <sadara> there are a lot of servos out there that are 320v and a lot are <400w
[21:22:42] <andypugh> Hmm, put 500w resistors in parallel with each motor winding and use a 1500W drive?
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[21:23:08] <sadara> I can make my own FOC drives for them
[21:23:25] <sadara> but then I can't communicate with the MESA system for the resolvers
[21:23:50] <sadara> and the mesa -> hostmot -> emc
[21:24:44] <andypugh> If you make your drives accept the Mesa three-phase PWM then you can hook up a resolver card to the other connectors. The problem here is current feedback.
[21:25:31] <r00t4rd3d> scored a small slab of 100+ year old Cherry today :D
[21:26:24] <gene77> I hope its been inside ALL that 100 years, cherry, on the ground and in the weather, does not do well
[21:26:45] <r00t4rd3d> It was inside. The interior of a gold club house bar.
[21:26:49] <r00t4rd3d> golf*
[21:27:00] <gene77> Ahh, nice
[21:27:08] <sadara> there are single chip drives for servo this size
[21:27:20] <r00t4rd3d> they had tables made from most of it for the dining room
[21:27:22] <sadara> I think ST make single chip drives up to 1200v 40A
[21:28:09] <sadara> (just the drive part, not the controller)
[21:28:14] <pcw_home> well there are Hybrid Hbridges (none of the HVICS are single chip)
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[21:28:42] <sadara> http://www.st.com/web/catalog/sense_power/FM148/SC1276/PF253316
[21:29:07] <gene77> Outside on the ground, you have maybe 6 monhs to salvage it, theres about 20 grand worth on the hill across the street, rotten all the way thru in 3 years.
[21:29:34] <andypugh> sadara: http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/mosfet-power-drivers/6880811/
[21:30:45] <andypugh> Ah, sorry, I miss-read the boundary, that needs external mosfets.
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[21:31:39] <sadara> yeah, 200mz might be a little low, even for tine servos
[21:31:48] <sadara> 200ma rather
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[21:33:37] <sadara> these seem ideal : http://www.st.com/web/catalog/sense_power/FM148/SC1276/PF251661
[21:33:44] <gene77> G2 y# i# j# where J is an offset, but from the starty or the endy?
[21:34:34] <andypugh> sadara: 500V 2A (there is a 1A version too) http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/motor-driver-ics/0415213/
[21:36:47] <sadara> andypugh: so your recomendation is to cut up the 8i40 ?
[21:36:51] <andypugh> But that's still a 1kW drive, for a 100W motor.
[21:37:05] <andypugh> 8i40?
[21:37:19] <sadara> the mesa 3 phase BLDC drive
[21:37:31] <andypugh> No, not really.
[21:37:47] <andypugh> I would start from scratch, I think.
[21:38:03] <sadara> but then how do you communicate with the mesa?
[21:38:18] <andypugh> I wonder if the motors would be fast enough at 50V
[21:39:18] <sadara> I can re-organise there phases, and run them at 80v (not a rewinds, cjust go from wye to delta)
[21:39:46] <andypugh> Hmm, PyCAM still reckons it is going to takr 3 hours to finish, so I think I will turn the machine off.
[21:39:51] <sadara> 50v is a little low
[21:40:08] <andypugh> All it will cost you is speed, not torque.
[21:40:36] <sadara> it defeates the purpose of having servos
[21:40:47] <sadara> I might as well keep the steppers
[21:41:25] <andypugh> Yes. I would suggest selling these servos and finding some that are either lower voltage, or higher power.
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[21:41:53] <sadara> they are the right size thoungh, and they were the right price
[21:41:56] <r00t4rd3d> wow you really use pycam?
[21:42:12] <andypugh> Or, keep an eye out on eBay for a suitable analogue-controlled drive.
[21:42:31] <andypugh> r00t4rd3d: I am trying it, it seems to work.
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[21:43:04] <sadara> It's unlikely I will find a 320v drive with resolver input
[21:43:27] <sadara> I am kinda in hacking the mesa 8i40 though
[21:44:30] <pcw_home> The 8I20 could be built with a 5A Hall sensors (though it would not save any money)
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[21:44:58] <sadara> I'm not really concerned with the price
[21:45:17] <sadara> I wouldn't mind if it cost a bit extra
[21:45:43] <sadara> all the mesa stuff is really well priced
[21:46:00] <sadara> I also have 8 of these, so it's not like a 1 off
[21:46:07] <andypugh> pcw_home: Can the 7i39 be up-voltaged?
[21:46:26] <pcw_home> Nah, its all overpriced
[21:47:21] <pcw_home> Its not isolated so I would not suggest it (I think it could go to 200V though)
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[21:48:52] <sadara> I only _need_ 80v
[21:49:12] <emc> hi and hello from germany, hurray, my first access with unbuntu-linuxcnc
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[21:53:28] <sadara> pcw_home: would the 7i39 go to 80v?
[21:54:05] <andypugh> sadara: Hang on, I have just realised that you can use _any_ Hall-input brushless drive.
[21:54:38] <andypugh> the HAL bldc component can convert resolver angles into umulated Hall signals.
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[21:54:47] <andypugh> (hi emc)
[21:56:57] <andypugh> sadara: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/121084418877 (though that is another 15A device)
[21:59:28] <sadara> are you sure?
[21:59:58] <andypugh> Sure about what? About that drive, no. About the idea, yes.
[22:00:41] <pcw_home> the 7I39 could go to 80V but if you started with 320V drives and they were wye connected delta would only get you down to 184V
[22:01:06] <sadara> yes, but I can live with 80v
[22:01:33] <andypugh> You would end up commutating trapezoidally, but that isn't a disaster.
[22:01:34] <sadara> below that and I would be better off with hobby rc motors
[22:02:27] <sadara> andypugh: I'm not sure I'm following
[22:02:42] <sadara> how is the drive tracking shaft angle?
[22:02:48] <andypugh> http://youtu.be/47y6RgAK--8 this movie compares sinusoidal and trapezoidal commutation: http://youtu.be/47y6RgAK--8
[22:02:49] <Tecan> (47y6RgAK--8) "BLDC.mov" by "andy pugh" is "Tech" - Length: 0:00:38
[22:03:09] <andypugh> Sinusoidal is quieter, but other than that there isn't much in it.
[22:04:46] <sadara> Are you talking about sensorless feedback?
[22:06:32] <andypugh> No. I am talking about using the Resolver feedback then computing an equivalent hall-sensor signal for the measured angle.
[22:07:55] <andypugh> The HAL bldc component can convert pretty much any motor feedback signal into any other.
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[22:11:57] <pcw_home> if you search for AMC drives on ebay they may be a solution as well (though low current one are less common)
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[22:13:19] <andypugh> That one I linked was an AMC. Hall-sensor and encoder input. But if we have Resolver feedback it's easy to emulate such a lower-quality signal. :-)
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[22:16:52] <pcw_home> this one is 25A peak but settable down to 3.75A peak
[22:16:53] <pcw_home> http://www.ebay.com/itm/ADVANCED-MOTION-CONTROL-BRUSHLESS-SERVO-AMPLIFIER-BD25A20C-/181106394878?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a2ac846fe
[22:17:29] <Tom_itx> what's the _new_ atom board of choice nowdays?
[22:18:46] <sadara> pcw_home: is that a better option than a modded 8i20? (regardless of price, and assuming a MESA resolver input + other mesa equiptment)
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[22:26:18] <andypugh> If the only problem with the 8i20 is the lack of current sensitivity, and fitting different sensors fixes that, then it sounds like a good, if expensive, solution.
[22:28:08] <sadara> that is something I would be willing to do myself, as long as the firmware doesn't need to change as well
[22:30:55] <pcw_home> Tom_itx: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128561
[22:31:47] <Tom_itx> does that take the same ram as the 525?
[22:31:57] <pcw_home> No idea
[22:33:13] <pcw_home> Only problem if the firmware was not changed is that the current scaling would be off (1/6 setpoint)
[22:33:45] <sadara> I figured as much
[22:35:02] <pcw_home> (assuming 5A Hall effect devices)
[22:37:27] <pcw_home> I think the Atom uses DDR3 SODIMMs but the Brazos CPU uses standard 240 pin DDR dimms
[22:37:29] <pcw_home> You can still get non Intel D525 based MBs:
[22:37:31] <pcw_home> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813153242
[22:37:49] <andypugh> I have a dead 8i20 you could practice on, but it is on the wrong side of the world.
[22:38:06] <sadara> what part died?
[22:40:59] <andypugh> The capacitors burst into flames, but only after I jumpered a burned-out internal track: This is _before_ the capacitors burst into flames. (it turns out that the damaged ones (which checked out OC) weren't OC at 320V. https://plus.google.com/photos/108164504656404380542/albums/5747722155741347649/5857937110515956322?banner=pwa
[22:41:44] <andypugh> U1 and U2 are, I think, the sensors you would need to change.
[22:43:11] <andypugh> It just seems _wrong_ to use something at 1/10 it's rated capacity. There ought to be something 1/10 the price for the jo.
[22:43:16] <andypugh> (b)
[22:43:30] <sadara> Look at it this way
[22:43:38] <andypugh> Tomorrow I might try SMT in the oven.
[22:43:39] <sadara> I got the servoes for $10 each
[22:43:59] <sadara> The list price is about $800
[22:44:24] <sadara> so if I pay $250 for the drives I'm well ahead
[22:46:16] <andypugh> Ah, yes. I got three servos (750W) for £50. They cost me £600 for a machine to use them on, £120 for a PC, £120 for a monitor, about a year of spare time, £200 for castings (and counting) probably £100 in parts, connectors (the connectors for each motor cost more than the full set of motos cost) and sundries.
[22:46:56] <andypugh> Odd how bargains can be so expensive :-)
[22:47:16] <pcw_home> You are ahead the final system is useful, what system has such small servos?
[22:47:37] <pcw_home> ahead if
[22:47:48] <sadara> Foam cutter
[22:48:06] <sadara> foam grinder to be more precise
[22:48:16] <andypugh> 100W servos are quite possibly no better than steppers.
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[22:48:39] <sadara> and an smt pick and place
[22:49:03] <pcw_home> Yeah it may be cheaper to just use step motors as decent (leadshine 542 or so)
[22:49:12] <pcw_home> step drive
[22:49:28] <sadara> that is what I am going with atm
[22:49:40] <sadara> but the gantry is limited by stepper RPM
[22:50:25] <andypugh> It is likely to be limited by servo rpm too, as the servos will have less torque at 0 rpm, so will need to be geared down.
[22:50:53] <sadara> these servos go to 14000RPM
[22:51:25] <andypugh> The video I linked earlier was a 100W servo on my milling machine Z axis. It had no real performance advantage over the steppers.
[22:52:05] <sadara> most of the time the long axis (3m) will be doing constant acceleration or deceleration, as the machine goes back and forth machining
[22:52:09] <andypugh> And I don't think you will get 14,000 rpm with an 8i20 and software commutation. (I am glad you mentioned that)
[22:52:27] <sadara> but that was a short heavy axis
[22:53:54] <sadara> the steppers can accelerate to max speed very quickly
[22:54:11] <sadara> (ie more torque = faster acceleration)
[22:54:39] <sadara> the steppers should reach max speed in 5cm or so
[22:55:16] <L84Supper> http://www.soliforum.com/topic/1954/fullfledged-lcd-touchscreen/ this approach would be nice if tablets had a real time interface or usable SDIO
[22:55:39] <sadara> the servos can't reach max V, as they are not powerful enough, and have to start decelerating at the half way point
[22:55:58] <andypugh> The 8i20 can only commutate at servo-thread rate. If that is 1kHz, with a 4-pole motor and wanting to commutate 6x per electrical cycle, that is about 2500rpm.
[22:56:08] <sadara> but they reach a much faster speed after a about 200-250 mm
[22:56:38] <andypugh> Which is faster than a stepper, by a fair margin.
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[22:57:58] <sadara> yeah, I can just under acceleration and deceleration, and still get optimal results, unlike metal and woodwork
[22:58:41] <pcw_home> a 8I20 will work with a 14000 RPM motor but you would need a 4-5 KHz servo thread
[22:59:07] <sadara> on PC?
[22:59:20] <pcw_home> Yes
[22:59:28] <sadara> I'm not hopeing to reach 14000 rpm btw
[23:00:01] <sadara> that would be terrifing
[23:00:22] <pcw_home> but the fact that its 100W at 14000 RPM means you have a lot of gearing down to do to get that 100W
[23:00:49] <andypugh> These are nice little 7i39-compatible motors, I have a couple, but I did most emphatically not pay that price: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/250799732438
[23:02:18] <sadara> I can do the math, and even with-out gearing down, the 100w servos still outperform the steppers
[23:04:12] <sadara> (on the long axis, one shorter axis y and z, the steppers are a better choise, actually, it would be marginal on y for bigger jobs, but y travel isn't as smooth , ie, more accel/decel)
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[23:07:05] <andypugh> http://granitedevices.com/index.php?q=servo-drive-vsd-e#.UWCqF6XgKH8 might be worth a look. They claim to work down to 5W, and LinuxCNC can definitely synthesise Hall signals (and quite possibly encoder signals too).
[23:07:56] <sadara> and LinuxCNC can definitely synthesise Hall signals <- ahhhh.... that make WAY more sense now
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[23:09:04] <andypugh> Hmm, the Granites are not any cheaper than the 8i20, though.
[23:09:32] <andypugh> Ah, had I failed to clearly explain what I was saying?
[23:10:15] <sadara> yes, which was why I was asking how the drives tracked shaft angle
[23:11:29] <sadara> if EMC can generate hall sensor information, can it generate 3 phase PWM ?
[23:11:52] <sadara> then I just need a three phase power stage in a chip
[23:12:12] <andypugh> Yes. I thought I already explined that too.
[23:12:51] <sadara> If you did, I didn't get it then
[23:13:31] <sadara> I wonder if there is a hostmot module
[23:14:28] <pcw_home> Yep
[23:15:07] <andypugh> With the right firmware a Mesa 5i20 + 7i49 can read the resolvers and output the correct 3-phase drive signals for the Inverter bridge. _However_ you would need to do current-control on your external board.
[23:15:26] <sadara> that is easy
[23:15:42] <pcw_home> so for a simple voltage mode drive its very easy (+ - blowing up the bridge with wrong drive signals)
[23:15:48] <andypugh> That is basically all that a 7i39 is. It's a dumb drive that responds to a 3-phase PWM signal from the PCI card.
[23:18:36] <sadara> I assume it's the same for a 7I40?
[23:18:53] <andypugh> pcw_home: Ah, but, a Mesa card would surely never give wrong drive signals?
[23:19:24] <andypugh> 7i40 is for brushed motors, I think.
[23:19:54] <sadara> sorry, I meant the 7i29
[23:19:59] <andypugh> (and, by the way, a set of brushed motors would almost certainly work brilliantly for you)
[23:20:15] <sadara> I know
[23:20:36] <sadara> but after spending this much time talking about them, I have to use them now
[23:20:44] <andypugh> 7i29 is for brushed motors too.
[23:21:05] <sadara> 7i39?
[23:21:07] <sadara> googles
[23:21:16] <andypugh> That is basically all that a 7i39 is. It's a dumb drive that responds to a 3-phase PWM signal from the PCI card.
[23:21:20] <sadara> yes, the 7i39
[23:21:29] <pcw_home> At startup all high/low side signals are high
[23:21:36] <andypugh> The one I mentioned earlier?
[23:21:41] <pcw_home> so you need to be careful
[23:21:58] <sadara> is there a serperate "enable" ?
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[23:23:12] <andypugh> Some of the bridge-on-a-chip devices have built-in shoot-through disable.
[23:25:04] <sadara> 3ppwmgen
[23:25:12] <sadara> found it
[23:25:14] <andypugh> yes
[23:25:19] <andypugh> man hostmot2
[23:25:40] <sadara> google, I don't have an emc computer nearby
[23:26:24] <Connor> pcw_home: Got Pete's MPG working on the Field I/O without issue.
[23:26:41] <andypugh> sadara: http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/hostmot2.9.html
[23:26:42] <Connor> looks to work just fine.. even at the distance..
[23:29:53] <andypugh> Ok chaps, (and chapesses, if there are any). It is time for me to log off.
[23:30:17] <sadara> same, It 7 am
[23:30:23] <sadara> need sleep
[23:30:38] <sadara> may also explain why I'm a little slow
[23:30:53] <andypugh> Ah, I normally assume that when I see an Aussie here they are up early, not down late.
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[23:54:14] <pcw_home> Connor Good. its a better match for a MPG since it does 1x mode
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