#linuxcnc | Logs for 2013-01-15

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[00:21:49] <tandoori> hi Valen
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[00:22:16] <Valen> sup
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[00:43:53] <_tjtr33> is webgl possible on D510MO, 12.04? "It doesn't appear your computer can support WebGL." sez the demos at Kronos :(
[00:44:37] <_tjtr33> ^^ GMA 3150
[00:48:09] <_tjtr33> ^^ ffox 18
[00:53:22] <Valen> webgl may have some higher requirements
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[00:54:28] <kwallace> Is there a chance that a 7i76 Step/Dir daughter board could be modified to have quadrature A B outputs on the Step/Dir pins? My mill has A B input amps for the steppers. I could build a circuit to convert Step/Dir to A B but I'd rather not. Or, I could use general purpose digital outputs.
[00:54:33] <Valen> some of the GMA's have screwed up GL drivers
[00:56:28] <_tjtr33> Valen i think i found it in about:support "Adapter DescriptionVMware, Inc. -- Gallium 0.4 on llvmpipe (LLVM 0x300)" wtf!?!?
[00:56:41] <Jymmm> Shit.... I WISH this my problem, fixed in no time... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqIOv3DJ6wE
[00:56:43] <Valen> ?
[00:57:19] <_tjtr33> Valen the driver seems to be VMware's not the Intel driver ( no idea why )
[00:57:25] <Valen> thats kinda odd
[00:57:30] <_tjtr33> yup
[00:57:34] <Valen> and would probably not support GL
[00:57:41] <Valen> whats Dr Google say?
[00:58:22] <_tjtr33> ? i was just about to remove VMware (if possible )
[00:58:42] <Valen> I'm guessing you aren't running vmware on an atom
[00:59:09] <_tjtr33> no, this never had vmware iirc,, a fairly new 12.04 install
[01:01:12] <skunkworks> kwallace: I think you can - look at the step_type http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/2.5/html/man/man9/hostmot2.9.html#stepgen
[01:01:28] <skunkworks> would be 2?
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[01:02:35] <kwallace> Oops, I didn't think to look in the driver manual. Thanks. I'll go look.
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[01:03:34] <skunkworks> although the 'complete gray cycle' for 1 step seems a bit odd. might want to ask peter about that
[01:03:35] <Valen> Jymmm: whats up with what?
[01:03:55] <skunkworks> how fast does it output that cycle?
[01:04:01] <Valen> _tjtr33: I suggest putting the output of a lspci into google and seeing what it says about drivers
[01:04:06] <Jymmm> Valen: somebody trying to repair their car without knowing what the problem is.
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[01:04:55] <Valen> you may need to blacklist the vmware modules or something like that
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[01:05:11] <kwallace> I'm planning on ordering a 5i25/7i76 kit for my Shizuoka. I'd also like to set up Modbus to the VFD.
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[01:05:45] <JT-Shop> http://imagebin.org/242946
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[01:06:27] <JT-Shop> http://imagebin.org/242947
[01:06:27] <JT-Shop> http://imagebin.org/242948
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[01:07:23] <JT-Shop> someone give Candice some Zen http://linuxcnc.org/index.php/english/forum/49-basic-configuration/26044-zen-toolworks-spindle-motor-config
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[01:07:43] <Tom_itx> gonna make a vertical one?
[01:08:17] <Tom_itx> i borrowed one of those from a friend and pushed the end off it so if you go that route, make sure you beef it up
[01:08:46] <Tom_itx> and if you get it too beefy, it defeats the purpose of having it on the ground
[01:10:02] <skunkworks> kwallace: I know JT-Shop has done modbus to vfd..
[01:11:26] <kwallace> It looks like there is an RS422 port on the 7i76 but only mentions SmartSerial.
[01:11:27] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop, i would also double the large wedge size
[01:11:47] <Tom_itx> if you get stringy wood it helps separate it better
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[01:13:31] <_tjtr33> Valen thx, ffox does say webgl is blocked for my setup, will look at lspci ( was using lshw which just sez its Intel N10 video )
[01:14:03] <Valen> yeah some specific cards are blocked, though generally you can override that somewhere
[01:14:11] <Valen> at least in chrome, dont know about ff
[01:14:36] <_tjtr33> 00:02.0 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation N10 Family Integrated Graphics Controller (rev 02)
[01:15:18] <_tjtr33> urph! why cant there be 1 name for 1 thing? maybe thats the problem, diff apps see it diff
[01:18:15] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop, nice storage idea though
[01:18:52] <Tom_itx> will the inner strap retainer be threaded?
[01:19:18] <JT-Shop> a pin goes in the hole
[01:19:26] <Tom_itx> that kinda looks like a weak spot
[01:19:57] <Tom_itx> those clevices are typically backed by a triangle
[01:20:00] <JT-Shop> my calculations show 8x the force
[01:20:23] <JT-Shop> ah yea there are some small bracing missing yet
[01:20:26] <Tom_itx> what about bending force on the bracket
[01:21:24] <Tom_itx> i started out with a single wedge stack and ended up making it alot wider near the back
[01:22:03] <JT-Shop> I figured I could put some spreaders behind the triangle blocks
[01:22:55] <Tom_itx> you're always gonna have some knotty wood that doesn't wanna cooperate
[01:23:29] <Tom_itx> it splits a helluva lot easier when it's frozen too
[01:23:36] <JT-Shop> I might extend the outside part down some to double up
[01:23:58] <JT-Shop> the table will be about 24" off the ground with a log lift
[01:24:09] <JT-Shop> chow time
[01:24:11] <Tom_itx> i've seen some that had at + configuration on the wedge too
[01:24:23] <Tom_itx> had a + *
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[01:25:12] <Tom_itx> figure a bin to catch the split wood too
[01:25:18] <Tom_itx> make life alot easier
[01:25:38] <Tom_itx> with pneumatic tires
[01:26:42] <Valen> JT-Shop: are you using air or something else for that?
[01:26:51] <Valen> I'd be a little worried about air throwing splinters
[01:27:11] <Tom_itx> hydraulic
[01:27:19] <Valen> nifty
[01:27:34] <Tom_itx> at least mine was
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[01:39:06] <tjtr33> Valen, left ffox alone, installed chromium, ran 'chromium-browser --ignore-gpu-blacklist', then as able to view demos at Khronos ( seems risky, but a start ) thx!
[01:40:13] <Valen> heh
[01:40:20] <Valen> well thats a good start anyway lol
[01:40:37] <Valen> you may not be seeing them at their best tjtr33
[01:44:45] <tjtr33> i have no comparison tho
[01:55:00] <AR_> do you like my progress so far?
[01:55:01] <AR_> http://i.imgur.com/iJ2cB.jpg
[01:55:01] <AR_> LOL
[01:55:53] <r00t4rd3d> i dont like that
[01:56:12] <AR_> too bad
[01:56:16] <r00t4rd3d> CHANGE IT
[01:56:33] <r00t4rd3d> that isnt where the motor is really going to go is it?
[01:56:40] <AR_> yes it is
[01:56:51] <r00t4rd3d> you can crash into that
[01:57:02] <AR_> yup
[01:57:08] <r00t4rd3d> put it on the backside
[01:57:20] <AR_> you mean flip the whole thing around?
[01:57:28] <r00t4rd3d> that is a shit ton of travel also
[01:57:32] <AR_> i could just turn that around
[01:57:35] <AR_> the whole thing
[01:57:41] <AR_> yeah i was thinking
[01:57:47] <AR_> that is a 6x8 plate on there now
[01:58:04] <AR_> right now i'm just trying to get it laid out
[01:58:31] <r00t4rd3d> you really only need like 3-4 inches of travel on your zaxis
[01:58:42] <AR_> that is Y axis xD
[01:58:46] <r00t4rd3d> oh
[01:58:54] <AR_> X will go on top
[01:59:01] <AR_> in mill form
[01:59:14] <AR_> http://i.imgur.com/whppy.jpg
[01:59:26] <AR_> this pic shows more parts
[01:59:39] <AR_> it is coming together so well
[02:00:17] <AR_> i'm thinking of using those short rails with the pillow block bearings for Z axis
[02:00:23] <r00t4rd3d> im not a fan of the random assortment of bolts either
[02:00:32] <AR_> i like it
[02:00:39] <AR_> it makes it more eccentric
[02:01:30] <AR_> i'm just using what i have now to get it in a form where i can order things i need
[02:01:41] <AR_> like... the frame
[02:01:52] <AR_> i kindof need a frame to put this stuff on
[02:01:53] <AR_> i guess
[02:01:59] <r00t4rd3d> the bolt heads sticking out will probably lead to issues also
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[02:02:45] <AR_> well i was thinking of mounting the bearing blocks upside down to that plate in the center
[02:02:55] <AR_> have the rails 'facing up'
[02:03:14] <AR_> regardless, i will probably put a thicker plate there anyway
[02:03:22] <AR_> then i can countersink the bolt heads
[02:03:58] <pcw_home> skunkworks: stepgen quadrature mode just runs 4 times faster than step/dir
[02:03:59] <pcw_home> mode so you have to set your scale to 1/4 what it would normally be
[02:06:56] <kwallace> pcw_home: Does the 7i76 generate the step/dir signals on board or are they generic output pins?
[02:07:31] <pcw_home> generic so they can be PWM/step/dir or whatever
[02:08:35] <kwallace> I want A B signals for my h-bridge stepper amps and wondered if I should order the 7i76 kit.
[02:08:59] <pcw_home> just 5V buffers/inverters so you have differential 5V outputs
[02:09:51] <r00t4rd3d> Im making my new zaxis out of oak and purpleheart :D
[02:09:53] <pcw_home> Are these just 1/2 step bipolar drivers?
[02:10:44] <ReadError> r00t4rd3d loves the wood
[02:11:34] <r00t4rd3d> so does your mom
[02:11:58] <kwallace> I have them 1/2 stepping now and living with the reduced torque but getting .0005" half steps.
[02:12:12] <ReadError> r00t4rd3d: indeed, hence, me.
[02:12:36] <pcw_home> Hmm do Oak and Purpleheart have the same moisture coefficient of expansion?
[02:13:33] <pcw_home> kwallace: A Hardware stepgen may be overkill for a 1/2 step driver
[02:15:21] <Tom_itx> pcw_home, http://www.fs.fed.us/ccrc/topics/urban-forests/docs/physical%20properties%20and%20moisture%20relations%20of%20wood.pdf
[02:15:49] <pcw_home> And if you have enough I/O, a standard parallel port breakout
[02:15:50] <pcw_home> (instead of the 7I76) is an option if you need a hardware stepgen
[02:16:16] <r00t4rd3d> im only using PH on a small part of it
[02:16:29] <r00t4rd3d> the router clamp
[02:17:13] <Tom_itx> pcw_home, P. 9 & 10
[02:19:02] <r00t4rd3d> right now my zaxis is made from like 4 different kinds of wood
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[02:20:34] <Tom_itx> pcw_home, in short.. no
[02:21:31] <pcw_home> Ahh look li cocobolo is really good (though I think thats one of the toxic ones)
[02:21:37] <pcw_home> look like
[02:21:50] <kwallace> pcw_home: I'm using PCI parports for stepping now, but I am using a Pluto for fast PWM to the spindle VFD, although I'd like to go to Modbus for that. A fast encoder counter would be needed for a future spindle encoder, but I suppose I could get by with the Pluto. The 7i76 seems pretty convenient if I can use the step/dir terminals as AB.
[02:22:13] <r00t4rd3d> I guess purpleheart is pretty toxic also but I didnt get any ill effects from the dust.
[02:22:29] <pcw_home> sure its just a stepgen mode parameter
[02:23:18] <pcw_home> I think a lot of tropical hardwoods are toxic (full of bug killers)
[02:24:01] <elmo40> hey people. I am trying to get a computer and printer into my service truck. I want a database to keep track of everything (inventory, customers, scheduling service calls...) and a printer to make a receipt for the customer before I leave. Going uber high-tech with tablet and thermal printer would be sweet... but I could live with a stationary computer(touch screen is nice but kb is fine, too) and an inkjet printer. Any ideas how to go about doing this? wh
[02:24:51] <kwallace> pcw_home: I got the feeling that the 5i25 had some sort of communications link to the 7i76 to support the 7i76 specific functions.
[02:25:17] <pcw_home> just the 24V I/O
[02:25:44] <pcw_home> well and the Spindle analog
[02:26:26] <pcw_home> and the remote I/O can handle 2 MPGs as well
[02:29:00] <tjtr33> dm510 doesnt play well with webgl, ffox17 or 18, tried chromium: some webgl ok, tried chrome beta25, others ok, mostly not. conclusion: dm510 POS for webgl.
[02:29:38] <pcw_home> the step/dir outputs and encoder inputs and serial port I/O are buffered
[02:29:40] <pcw_home> but direct so can be re-purposed with different firmware on the 5I25
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[02:32:19] <kwallace> I guess the biggest difference between the 7i75 and 76 is that the 76 has differential terminals for each 5i25 signal?
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[02:34:31] <skunkworks> kwallace: so you're running h-bridge with quadrature?
[02:34:51] <skunkworks> and that gives you 1/2 steps?
[02:34:51] <kwallace> Yes.
[02:35:05] <skunkworks> Of .0005?
[02:35:42] <skunkworks> so would the mesa stepgen only give you a resolution of .002?
[02:36:11] <kwallace> http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/Shizuoka/Driver%20Schematic1.jpg
[02:37:13] <kwallace> No, but if my steppers could keep up, I could do those half steps faster.
[02:37:14] <skunkworks> yikes!
[02:38:13] <skunkworks> is that the drive that people are always replacing the ouput transistors in?
[02:39:26] <kwallace> I haven't had any trouble, but they do whine a bit.
[02:39:55] <pcw_home> skunkworks: the hostmot2 manual is not very clear, the steps are generated
[02:39:56] <pcw_home> evenly but at 4 times the normal rate (so you need to set the scale appropriately)
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[02:40:41] <pcw_home> (in quadrature mode)
[02:41:44] <pcw_home> 7I75 is just an I/O protector so universal but unbuffered/un-isolated
[02:41:56] <skunkworks> ok - as long as you guys understand it ;) ..
[02:42:31] <kwallace> The steps don't come in fours do they?
[02:42:40] <pcw_home> No
[02:43:04] <skunkworks> heh - good. (that is how I was understanding it...)
[02:44:30] <pcw_home> the normal stepgen steps when the accumulator over/underflows
[02:44:32] <pcw_home> the quadrature one uses the top 2 bits of the accumulator to generate
[02:44:33] <pcw_home> the gray code so the 'edge' rate is 4 times step/dir
[02:46:41] <pcw_home> You can generate normally scaled quadrature with the
[02:46:43] <pcw_home> table mode but that was never supported by the driver
[02:52:32] <kwallace> So, to add the quadrature output the existing counter code was tweaked. Kinda makes sense because quadrature isn't used that often and the only side effect is the scale value needed to flush the lower bits.
[02:57:33] <kwallace> Oops, my drivers are not h-bridge but unipolar.
[03:00:05] <AR_> what's a good rigid column for a CNC mill that can be made/bought for under $100
[03:01:01] <AR_> i know you can buy mini mill 'solid' columns from LMS for like $150
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[03:47:45] <jdh> relatively inexpensive 5/24vdc http://www.mpja.com/01-15-13.asp?r=245198&s=6
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[04:27:08] <s1dev> anyone know where to get relatively backlash free worm gears the gear preferrable has an OD less than 3"
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[05:02:19] <Jymmm> http://BacklashFreeWormGears.com/
[05:02:57] <Jymmm> just a guess ;)
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[05:46:27] <tjtr33> https://sdp-si.com/eStore/Direct.asp?GroupID=390
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[05:54:42] <tjtr33> and misumi
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[07:18:30] <archivist> s1dev, the better rotary tables have adjustment
[07:19:23] <Jymmm> Anchorage AK = 38F, Napa CA = 33F WTH?!
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[07:39:31] <Valen> damn http://www.challengecoinsrus.com/coin-pricing.htm/
[07:39:34] <Valen> thats pretty cheap
[07:39:40] <Valen> I really must look into casting
[07:39:46] <Valen> or do you think those are stamped?
[07:40:04] <toastydeath> no way those are stamped for those prices
[07:40:08] <toastydeath> die cast
[07:40:31] <Valen> filling in 7 colours though is pretty dang decent
[07:40:42] <Valen> that must be CnCed somehow
[07:42:28] <Valen> yeah, they have hollow bits too
[07:42:37] <Valen> how hard would die-casting be in the home shop?
[07:42:55] <toastydeath> i've never seen anyone attempt die casting
[07:45:06] * Valen knows little of it
[07:45:39] <toastydeath> you have an actively heated/cooled mold steel die
[07:45:45] <toastydeath> and you inject metal into it, like plastic injection
[07:46:02] <toastydeath> usually a low melting point thing that won't stick to your alloy
[07:47:34] <toastydeath> the gating and all that shit is convoluted because it's metal, you can't just be like "oh hey it's flexible"
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[07:52:08] <Valen> does look like rather a lot of screwing about
[07:55:18] <Valen> put that one into the too hard basket methinks
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[07:59:10] <DJ9DJ> moin
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[09:18:24] <Loetmichel> mornin'
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[10:50:41] <DearLeader> hello linux cnc
[10:50:54] <DearLeader> I just bought a CNC myself (a shapeoko), and i did the basic hello wold thing
[10:51:06] <DearLeader> but i have no idea what to do with it, do you guys know any tutorials/
[10:54:00] <DearLeader> anyone?
[10:54:36] <cpresser> DearLeader: tutorial for what task?
[10:55:07] <DearLeader> Cpresser
[10:55:25] <DearLeader> I want to do pcbmilling mostly, but i just found out i can use this CNC to do pretty much anything
[10:56:00] <DearLeader> I just began with a sharpie mrker and drew a hello world
[10:56:13] <cpresser> take a look at pcb2gcode
[10:56:44] <Valen> Also look at whats involved in holding the PCB perfectly flat
[10:56:47] <Valen> think vaccume
[10:56:50] <cpresser> and this one: http://phk.freebsd.dk/CncPcb/
[10:58:58] <DearLeader> what about other things
[11:00:35] <DearLeader> i was recommende the cadcam
[11:00:35] <DearLeader> cambam
[11:00:35] <DearLeader> something like that
[11:03:13] <jthornton> DearLeader, http://gnipsel.com/linuxcnc/index.html
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[14:32:13] <JesusAlos> hi
[14:32:25] <JesusAlos> wht's the last revison of linuxcnc?
[14:33:49] <JesusAlos> I installed 2.5.1
[14:34:27] <JesusAlos> Is the last version?
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[14:48:22] <cpresser> its the latest stable release. see here: http://www.linuxcnc.org/
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[15:57:07] <IchGuckLive> hi all B)
[15:57:33] <JT-Shop> hi
[15:58:07] <IchGuckLive> O.O ice snmow cold Brrr
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[16:02:17] <JT-Shop> pretty cold here too but no snow
[16:03:53] <IchGuckLive> someone lives in oregon how is the wether there
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[16:38:16] <JesusAlos> But where I can find the beta versions?
[16:38:30] <JesusAlos> or unnoficial
[16:38:38] <JT-Shop> beta of?
[16:42:59] <JesusAlos> higger version of 2.5.1
[16:43:05] <JesusAlos> beta of linuxcnc
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[16:49:16] <kwallace> Up to LinuxCNC 2.6 is available here: http://git.linuxcnc.org/gitweb?p=linuxcnc.git;a=summary . Hints on installing and using the source is here: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Installing_LinuxCNC .
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[16:52:19] <mrsun> hmm how the heck strong would antibacklash nuts on a mill be ?
[16:52:53] <mrsun> i cannot move the table by hand when i have it tightened to not rock ... but the motor does it without a problem ... an antibacklash nut is supposed to push the table towards one side of the threads right ?
[16:55:58] <kwallace> I would think of it as two equal nuts, one for each direction. On acme screws, any preload from adjusting the nuts will create a lot of friction. The only practical solution is to use ball screws.
[16:56:51] <mrsun> ye but do not want to throw alot more money on this little mill :/ so hoping on some cheaper homebrew solution =)
[16:57:01] <mrsun> using backlash comp in linuxcnc atm
[16:57:12] <mrsun> works quite nice but table can move due to cutting forces
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[17:04:34] <kwallace> That's the problem with having that feature available, it gives people the impression that it solves backlash problems. The only way to get rid of backlash is to get rid of the source. There are other low friction roller type screw systems, but they take up more room. When I get time, I'd like to try making ball screws for a no or low cost solution, then use screw error compensation to to fix position errors.
[17:06:22] <mrsun> kwallace, yeah but ballscrews are "expensive" etc .. specialy if there is limited room and you have to go for miniature =)
[17:08:08] <kwallace> Some people have made Delrin nuts or filled nuts with Turcite or Moglice to lower the acme friction.
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[17:27:44] <ReadError> nice
[17:27:50] <ReadError> ordered a locline vac setup ;)
[17:29:19] <jdh> I have some for holding my underwater video camera/light
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[17:41:01] <IchGuckLive> Hi all
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[18:00:33] <mrsun> now that gib seems to be an improvement .. from like 0.5mm contact to the gib. . on the dge of it to 5mm contact
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[18:02:17] <mrsun> but how to hold a thin gib for scraping :/
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[19:24:07] <IchGuckLive> by B)
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[19:36:59] <syyl> mrsun
[19:37:16] <syyl> mill a slot in a piece of wood
[19:37:21] <syyl> press fit for the gib
[19:37:25] <syyl> perfect :)
[19:37:42] <syyl> takes 5min to make
[19:37:52] <syyl> but makes live so much easier
[19:43:27] <mrsun> but how to get it out for respotting? :P
[19:43:37] <mrsun> or use the wood piece for respotting also ?
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[19:50:33] <syyl_ws> press fit was not the correct term
[19:50:35] <syyl_ws> just snug
[19:50:50] <syyl_ws> so you can put it in and take it out with the fingers
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[20:08:18] <mrsun> oki, finding it hard to getting it spotted also ... uneven preasure :/
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[20:25:47] <Mr_Wolfsl> Mr Cradek Thanks for your help I succeeded to loopback the axis W for the kinematics. Thanks again
[20:25:58] <cradek> yay
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[20:28:48] <Mr_Wolfsl> the column W in the tooltable is just for the gui
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[20:41:30] <Jymmm> http://elrellano.com/videos_online/4624/circo-roncalli.html
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[20:59:42] <ReadError> http://atlanta.craigslist.org/sat/tls/3542824292.html
[20:59:52] <ReadError> is that atlas a decent deal?
[20:59:56] <ReadError> looks like its in good shape
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[21:42:11] <Tom_itx> that's the bigger version of mine
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[22:03:20] <DJ9DJ> gn8
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[22:13:42] <ReadError> PCI 'training' is such a joke
[22:14:12] <ReadError> You receive an instant message from a person called Claudio Kabila informing you that he needs your help to retrieve money that is currently kept in a trust deposit vault in Dubai. He will give you $10,000 to help him. What should you do?
[22:14:12] <ReadError> Offer to help in any way you possibly can; $10,000 is too much money to pass up.
[22:14:13] <ReadError> Reply to Mr. Kabila via IM and ask him for more information before proceeding.
[22:14:22] <ReadError> Ignore the scam. You know if it sounds too good to be true, it usually is.
[22:14:22] <ReadError> Google the name Claudio Kabila to ensure he is not affiliated with a scam.
[22:15:00] <t12> haha yes
[22:15:06] <t12> i had to do through some pci online test
[22:15:09] <t12> for some merchant account
[22:15:18] <t12> it consisted of an infinite try multiple choice test
[22:15:24] <t12> until they said ok you're compliant!
[22:15:49] <ReadError> yea im doing this for work
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[22:20:04] <JT-Shop> Yea! the relay has arrived
[22:20:41] <Valen> ok, so pidgin-skype plugin is rather unstable
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[22:30:51] <tjb1> Hmm, life in the US is about to get interesting
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[22:32:20] <ReadError> guns?
[22:32:29] <tjb1> I hope the president does push that bill through using his power, I am curious to see what happens
[22:33:00] <ReadError> what bill?
[22:33:00] <tjb1> The whole senate, congress and government will get changed real fast ;)
[22:33:33] <tjb1> I just read that Biden was going to Obama with proposals that they say he will just enact himself
[22:33:52] <t12> gun control thing?
[22:33:56] <tjb1> Yeah
[22:34:24] <Valen> i figure its probably not going to make much of a difference
[22:34:31] <ReadError> whats the bill?
[22:34:36] <ReadError> ban high capacity mags?
[22:35:01] <tjb1> NY already pushed one through
[22:35:11] <t12> announcement about a future announcement of a measure
[22:35:27] <tjb1> congress is nothing but greedy scumbags
[22:35:34] <tjb1> they dont care what the people that elected them say
[22:35:44] <ReadError> so i just got paid for 43hrs overtime
[22:35:50] <ReadError> cnc router time?
[22:35:54] <Valen> ReadError: so what you buying me?
[22:35:56] <ReadError> ;)
[22:36:04] <ReadError> Valen: just good vibes
[22:36:16] * Valen already got a "good vibe"
[22:36:25] <Valen> best thing for a relationship let me tell you that ;->
[22:36:30] <ReadError> better vibes :)
[22:37:13] <t12> i wonder what they'll actually propose
[22:37:15] <Valen> sweet
[22:37:21] <Valen> i should really repair that
[22:37:43] <Valen> I don't know what they could do in the USA wrt guns, they just like killing each other too much
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[22:39:00] <tjb1> What I like is Pennsylvania at least has a State Game Commision
[22:39:06] <tjb1> They buy land for hunting
[22:39:18] <tjb1> I'm sure other states have something similar
[22:42:09] <t12> http://www.reuters.com/news/pictures/slideshow?articleId=USRTR3CGH2#a=1
[22:42:13] <t12> check out that weirdness
[22:42:31] <tjb1> That doesn't matter
[22:42:39] <tjb1> too many people in congress worrying about $$$$$$
[22:44:50] <t12> i remember reading an article a while ago
[22:44:53] <t12> i wish i could find it again
[22:45:02] <t12> which more or less said that the two political angles are
[22:45:16] <t12> last dish effort not to crashland the whole nation
[22:45:38] <t12> and the try as best a landing as possible
[22:45:41] <t12> i phrased that totally wrong
[22:45:56] <t12> it came down to a doubledown or accept that its over gracefully
[22:46:42] <Valen> I think america needs to realise it has finished its growth due to population growth and work out how to be stable
[22:46:55] <Valen> grow through productivity increases, not more people
[22:47:57] <Valen> australia is in the same boat (or at least should be, we are heading for a wall, stupid politicians)
[22:48:01] <t12> population control is pretty hard
[22:48:24] <Valen> in .au it'd be pretty simple, reduce inbound immigration from ~250k per year to 150k
[22:48:25] <t12> theres def not going to be productivity increases here
[22:48:34] <t12> current new workforce generation isnt that good
[22:48:38] <t12> and the next one likely wont be either
[22:49:02] <tjb1> I know how to fix congress, lower the salary to around $50k
[22:49:04] <t12> the main thing the US needs to do is accept that most people arent gonna be 'productive members of society'
[22:49:08] <t12> and adjust accordingly
[22:49:13] <Valen> I think there could be if rather than everybody working to scrape the minimum out and then dispose of it people worked on stuff that was going to last a lifetime
[22:49:26] <t12> and by arent going to be, i mean shouldnt even be expected to be
[22:49:50] <tjb1> the countries that have been on top for a while will never expand when places like china ignore all rules
[22:49:50] <Valen> I had an alternate system of government for my space station
[22:49:51] <t12> its really hard to beat replacement economics
[22:49:58] <t12> i think the problems are mainly political/cultural
[22:50:04] <t12> esp regarding economy and jobs
[22:50:17] <tjb1> The US cant compete with China because they don't follow the rules we do
[22:50:43] <tjb1> They dont care about emissions
[22:50:49] <tjb1> or wages
[22:50:52] <Valen> basically communism doesn't work and capitalism doesn't either the only answer is a mix of both. I suggest that "taxes" be paid in the form of community service
[22:51:05] <Valen> actually tjb1 china is doing more "green" work than the USA
[22:51:11] <Valen> roughly on par with .eu
[22:51:28] <Valen> they are throwing hundreds of billions into forrests/nature and green power
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[22:52:12] <tjb1> I bet the factories dont
[22:52:43] <tjb1> Foxconn and the others keep getting in trouble for child labor
[22:52:52] <Valen> back to my economics. Basically people should spend the equivalent of 1 day a week doing work on infrastructure and food generation, in return you are given a basic house/apartment, food and internet. If you want more stuff go do your really rather free market stuff
[22:53:14] <Valen> child labour is a different kettle of fish
[22:53:31] <tjb1> If they are breaking child labor, do you think they are following any of the other laws?
[22:53:41] <tjb1> They are whole campuses
[22:53:52] <Valen> oh probably
[22:54:01] <Valen> they are improving though
[22:54:07] <DaViruz> they can print nice brochures saying they do
[22:54:21] <tjb1> They are improving because places like Apple and Samsung are forcing them :P
[22:54:21] <DaViruz> maybe even invite a tv team to some model city
[22:54:25] <Valen> mainly because the govt doesn't like the workers getting poisoned by dumping crap into the rivers
[22:54:56] <Valen> they are also firing up more nuke plants than anybody else, germany the daft bastards are planning on shutting all theirs down
[22:55:00] <Valen> that will do wonders for Co2
[22:55:25] <DaViruz> that was a real setback :/
[22:55:34] <tjb1> Ive bought stuff on ebay with free shipping where they paid more to ship it than I paid for the item….explain that
[22:55:42] <DaViruz> we decided back in 1988 to shut down ours though so i can't really complaine
[22:55:46] <Valen> tjb1: called a loss leader
[22:55:52] <DaViruz> we haven't actually done so yet though..
[22:56:01] <Valen> I'm hoping thats what happens DaViruz
[22:56:02] <t12> yeah china ebay is amazing
[22:56:17] <tjb1> But this is ebay
[22:56:26] <t12> the counterargument regarding emissions though
[22:56:32] <tjb1> They sell nothing but garbage, I dont see how that can lead to a sale of better products from them
[22:56:43] <t12> is that really, most leading nations were just as shitty to the environment
[22:56:56] <t12> but now that they're on top, they want to cut competition out via env sanctions
[22:57:00] <Valen> perhaps you are over estimating the cost of the good and underestimating the cost of the postage
[22:57:12] <Valen> didn't some river in USA catch fire not that long ago?
[22:57:30] <t12> i think the reality is noone is going to control 7b peoples emissions
[22:57:43] <t12> we'll burn every drop of oil we can get our hands on, until we cant
[22:57:48] <Valen> I really need to pull my finger out and invent fusion power
[22:58:50] <tjb1> t12: thats not what I am saying though, not talking about the environment so much as the fact that companies in the US, Europe and other areas have to be compliant with the emission laws where I bet most of them in China aren't following so they are making product cheaper than anywhere else
[22:59:00] <tjb1> The US will never improve when it is like that
[22:59:02] <t12> oh
[22:59:03] <t12> yeah
[22:59:04] <t12> totally
[22:59:24] <t12> any nation that voulntarily follows those rules will be at least temporarily at a disadvantage
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[22:59:39] <Valen> there are moves to count foreign emissions on products for sale locally
[22:59:54] <t12> how?
[23:00:03] <t12> no way this toy totally zero emissions
[23:00:07] <t12> how do you validate that as an importer
[23:00:11] <Valen> the onus is on the supplier
[23:00:16] <Valen> prove it
[23:00:26] <t12> heres a peice of paper
[23:00:30] <t12> that says zero emissions
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[23:00:39] <t12> heres a vial of nice fresh air
[23:00:42] -!- RifRaf [RifRaf!~rifraf@203-219-75-65.tpgi.com.au] has joined #linuxcnc
[23:00:46] <Valen> no worries
[23:00:47] -!- Brian_ [Brian_!~Dear@] has joined #linuxcnc
[23:00:55] <t12> i'm just saying what keeps them from just lying
[23:00:58] <Valen> well we sent our inspectors back along your supply chain and you lied
[23:00:58] <t12> and how could anyway tell
[23:01:00] <t12> anyone
[23:01:05] <Valen> so heres a nice jail for you
[23:01:26] <t12> you think china is going to jail their people based on another nations import rules?
[23:01:36] <Valen> you don't jail the chinese
[23:01:42] <Valen> you jail the USA people
[23:01:49] <t12> _lol_
[23:01:54] <t12> we dont put people in jail
[23:02:02] <t12> unless its for drugs or minor crime
[23:02:06] <Valen> over 1% of your population is in jail
[23:02:07] <tjb1> The US doesnt even kill people with death sentences
[23:02:19] <t12> also if youre black or mexican
[23:02:22] <t12> you can totally go to jail
[23:02:22] <tjb1> because of dirty lawyers
[23:02:27] <t12> if you just stole money or broke rules thats ok
[23:02:46] <tjb1> There is guy whole killed 3 people locally 18 years ago
[23:02:58] <tjb1> Everytime he is sentenced for death, his lawyer gets him a stay
[23:03:04] <cevad> Depends who you stoke the money from
[23:03:08] <tjb1> He just got a stay 2 weeks ago
[23:03:10] <t12> true
[23:03:28] <t12> i'm down with just lifing people
[23:03:53] -!- DearLeader has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
[23:04:21] <t12> and theres always this:
[23:04:22] <t12> http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/The_Innocent_and_the_Death_Penalty.php
[23:04:58] <tjb1> Well take the one that have been proven and get rid of them
[23:05:00] <t12> the giant pile of situations like that is justification enough not to death penalty people
[23:05:11] <t12> the point is that the processes is error prone
[23:05:17] <t12> so just err towards not accidently executing people
[23:05:33] <Valen> I reckon the whole point of jail is wrong
[23:05:35] -!- emacsen has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
[23:05:38] <t12> also once their dead, you cant un-execute them
[23:05:44] <t12> you can let someone out of prison for life
[23:05:45] <Valen> putting somebody in a box full of criminals won't fix it
[23:06:00] <t12> jails are useful, they just run them weird
[23:06:07] <t12> there are some people you dont want in normal society
[23:06:07] <Valen> they need to basically join the army
[23:06:10] <tjb1> Many of them in jail are taken care of better than when they werent in jail
[23:06:10] <t12> they just need to be somewhere else
[23:06:12] <Valen> just without the guns
[23:06:24] <Valen> my "jail system" works thusly
[23:07:03] <Valen> step 1 you go into criminal town, drugs and anything goes, we will air drip rice and vitamin pills into criminal town
[23:07:03] <tjb1> Why do people in jail need cigarettes or tv or even have the ability to be at the gym all day?
[23:07:14] <t12> why not?
[23:07:23] <t12> its not like being in jail is some kind of reward
[23:07:24] <t12> it sucks
[23:07:24] <Valen> and any drug busts we make outside we will also deliver
[23:07:33] <Jymmm> It's punishment, not a day spa
[23:07:39] <t12> it shouldnt be punishment
[23:07:42] <Valen> step 2, if you decide you want to leave criminal town, you go to school
[23:07:50] <t12> what are you gonna do punish someone their whole life and then they die and the point of the punishment is?
[23:07:54] <tjb1> They shouldnt have cigarettes, tv or gym use
[23:07:58] <t12> the goal shold just be to keep them from causing trouble to everyone else
[23:08:06] <Valen> you live in a dorm, you get up, keep clean and learn a skill
[23:08:10] <tjb1> they knew the laws, shouldnt have broken them
[23:08:13] <t12> if that takes cigs tv and some weights
[23:08:14] <t12> thes fine
[23:08:17] <t12> thats
[23:08:25] <Valen> break the rules and you go back to criminal town for x months
[23:08:54] <Valen> you can only leave "jail" once you have learnt a useful skill and shown you have the ability to function in society
[23:09:30] <Jymmm> They cause more financial burden that most of the crimes they commited. They should be placed into servatude to those they did damage to
[23:09:31] <JT-Shop> lol, Escape from New York
[23:09:43] <t12> doing what?
[23:09:47] <Valen> JT-Shop: kinda, but with a defined outlet
[23:09:55] <t12> they're going to make up for a murder in sewing tshirts or shoes or something?
[23:10:09] <Valen> you need to actually solve the problem that caused them to commit the crime in the first place
[23:10:19] <Jymmm> slave in essense
[23:10:42] <t12> why not just pay the chinese, likely less
[23:10:45] <Valen> generally its because they have no useful skills or ability to see the long term as a viable thing to plan for
[23:10:45] <t12> to make the same product
[23:11:18] <Jymmm> If you get put in jail, you should have to earn your food, clothes, etc.
[23:11:36] <Jymmm> Valen: They can be taught if they are willing
[23:11:51] <Valen> thats what i said, you go to jail until you want to leave
[23:11:55] <tjb1> My cousin is younger than me and has been to jail 5-6 times
[23:12:15] <JT-Shop> that seems to be an upoplar view among those in charge of giving the country away
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[23:13:00] <ReadError> tjb1: most jails/prisons ban cigarettes now
[23:13:07] <tjb1> He gets out, tells his dad he will change, goes back to jail in a month
[23:13:15] <ReadError> plus
[23:13:22] <Jymmm> It cost $100K/year to house an inmate. Hell, you could have given him/her half that and they might be able to do something with their life
[23:13:23] <ReadError> if you keep them occupied with gym and tv
[23:13:27] <ReadError> they wont be fighting
[23:13:29] <ReadError> etc.
[23:13:35] <ReadError> Jymmm: nah
[23:13:39] <ReadError> federal is 32k per year
[23:13:49] <ReadError> more depending on the security of the facility
[23:14:01] <Jymmm> ReadError: Even at 16K
[23:14:08] <tjb1> Let them fight
[23:14:13] <Valen> my idea for criminal town was to put it in the middle of the outback (we have plenty of desert) the jail is defined by a line on the ground
[23:14:13] <tjb1> They want to kill each other, even better ;)
[23:14:26] <ReadError> tjb1: then you are stuck footing the bill for medical
[23:14:29] <tjb1> No
[23:14:31] <Valen> if you cross the line the helicopter comes after you
[23:14:34] <tjb1> You dont have to be
[23:14:40] <Jymmm> Just send em all to .AU
[23:14:46] <Valen> raffle tickets off for a chance to fly in the helicopter and shoot the criminals
[23:15:07] <ReadError> well
[23:15:20] <ReadError> a majority of this would be fixed by eliminating the war on drugs
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[23:15:29] <Valen> true enough
[23:15:43] <Jymmm> s/war/guberment profit/
[23:15:44] <ReadError> do you realize how many non violent offenders are locked up?
[23:16:37] <JT-Shop> The United States has the highest documented incarceration rate in the world (743 per 100,000 population)
[23:17:16] <JT-Shop> At year-end 2007 the United States had less than 5% of the world's population[29] and 23.4% of the world's prison and jail population (adult inmates).[9]
[23:17:41] <Jymmm> I say give em carrots and water... anything after that, they earn.
[23:17:56] <ReadError> Nearly One In Eight US Drug Prisoners Are Behind Bars For Pot -- Taxpayers Spending Over $1 Billion Annually To Incarcerate Pot Offenders
[23:18:05] <ReadError> for example..
[23:18:23] <ReadError> The BJS study, "Drug Use and Dependence, State and Federal Prisoners, 2004," reports that 12.7 percent of state inmates and 12.4 percent of federal inmates incarcerated for drug violations are serving time for marijuana offenses
[23:18:30] <JT-Shop> Jymmm: come on they should have the finest housing that our brave troops had in WW1
[23:18:54] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: moldy canvas tent?
[23:18:59] <JT-Shop> yep
[23:19:11] <JT-Shop> dirt floor on a good day
[23:19:18] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: They would have to earn that.
[23:19:24] <JT-Shop> right
[23:19:34] <Jymmm> Oh, not carrots.... Kale and water
[23:19:37] <JT-Shop> and most states are missing the tax boat for weed
[23:19:46] <JT-Shop> dumb asses
[23:19:52] <Valen> you keep saying earn this and earn that, but you neglect that their skill set and attitude preclude them from that which is why they are there in the first place
[23:20:05] <Valen> you need to give them the ability to earn stuff
[23:20:15] <Valen> once they have that they won't need to be in jail any more
[23:20:26] <ReadError> Valen: most places offer vocational training
[23:20:29] <ReadError> and jobs
[23:20:31] <Jymmm> Valen: There can be classes offered to them; other can teach them like an appreticship
[23:20:37] <JT-Shop> give is the wrong attitude
[23:20:53] <ReadError> Jymmm: they do that
[23:21:01] <ReadError> for example, barber training
[23:21:03] <ReadError> HVAC
[23:21:04] <Jymmm> Valen: How hard it it to plant a seed for food?
[23:21:26] <Jymmm> Valen: how hard is it for them to learn to grab a hose to water plants?
[23:21:37] <Valen> Jymmm: when your personal time line is a week and a half then it'd be pretty damn hard
[23:21:56] <Jymmm> Valen: They aren't going anywhere for years.
[23:21:57] <Valen> by all means have them grow their own food once they decide they want to re-enter society
[23:22:22] <Jymmm> Valen: fuck society, I'm talking survival in prison
[23:22:36] <Valen> urgh i'm arguing with Jymmm, thats pointless at the best of times, and this is a philosophical debate
[23:22:48] <Jymmm> Valen: They want theri cell warm, they chop firewood
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[23:23:21] <Jymmm> they could barter chopped firewood for clothing
[23:23:22] <Valen> ok so the people who manage to make it out of your prison by steeling food from anybody else who does grow it and killing for firewood are the kind of people you want to re-introduce to society
[23:23:51] <Jymmm> Valen: You're talking Mad Max stuff.
[23:24:34] <Jymmm> It's a mindset; you dont start it with hard core psycho killers here
[23:24:52] <Jymmm> Like someone said, the non-vilent offenders.
[23:25:17] <ReadError> Jymmm: there are different classifications to denote where you go
[23:25:22] <Jymmm> Maybe someone cousn wouldn't be in/out of jail 5-6 times if he has to wrok/earn/learn
[23:25:25] <ReadError> education plays a role as well
[23:25:37] <ReadError> if you dont have a GED for example, you get more points
[23:25:37] <Jymmm> ReadError: ppl can learn, if they are willing.
[23:25:43] <t12> and what if they're not willing
[23:25:45] <ReadError> and start off at a higher level facility
[23:25:54] <t12> or how about
[23:26:00] <ReadError> if you take the GED test and pass, your points get lowered
[23:26:00] <t12> what if they disagree with what you're teaching
[23:26:18] <Valen> he also might not be in jail if he had a useful skill and work experience in his trade
[23:26:33] <Jymmm> t12: When they are hungry becasue there in no chow hall to get food from, they may get a different perspetive on learning/willingness
[23:26:42] <t12> or just eat your neighbor
[23:26:50] <Valen> no, they will just kill each other over what food there is
[23:27:00] <t12> hungry people will do crazy shit
[23:27:03] <t12> not sane stuff
[23:27:23] <Jymmm> There's ALWAYS kale and water.... but anything past that they have to create
[23:27:27] <t12> you're essentially saying threaten people with death and starvation if they dont do what you want
[23:27:34] <t12> i've been locked up in situations like that before, and its fucked
[23:28:14] <ReadError> the prison system has an obligation to take care of the inmates
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[23:28:18] <Jymmm> Kale is one of those ubar veggies it' will keep you going.
[23:28:25] <ReadError> caloric intake, to health and dental
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[23:29:08] <cradek> health care for prisoners is a hard sell in a country where the working poor don't have it
[23:29:21] <Jymmm> I think they has have it far too easy. Everyone can be a resource, be it picking up a hose to teaching someone else.
[23:29:47] <t12> just because the working poor have it shitty
[23:29:49] <ReadError> cradek: there are always free clinics
[23:29:52] <t12> doesnt mean people in prison should have it WORSE
[23:29:55] <t12> just for 'fairness'
[23:30:01] <t12> how about this
[23:30:05] <t12> the working poor should have it better
[23:30:09] <t12> and leave people in prison alone?
[23:30:12] <Valen> oh btw that's another thing about my jail system, you also have voluntary entry. so you don't need to commit a crime to do it
[23:30:20] <Valen> commit a crime to get in rather
[23:30:31] <ReadError> Valen: there are plenty of cases where innocent people are locked up
[23:30:32] <Jymmm> t12: worse than the person living in the freezing cold while they commited a crime and get clean clothes, showert, and a warm bed?
[23:30:36] <ReadError> only for it to be overturned years later
[23:30:43] <ReadError> DNA evidence and what not..
[23:31:04] <Valen> ReadError: in my system those sort of people could be out in months
[23:31:11] <Valen> for almost any offence
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[23:31:52] <Valen> I think though that a seperate punishment system is needed for people who are functioning members of society who do stupid stuff
[23:31:54] <t12> you gotta try and tease the logic apart here
[23:32:08] <t12> 1: there are people who are working productive members of society who are poor and mistreated
[23:32:16] <t12> 2: there are prisoners who are not working productive members of society
[23:32:20] <Valen> habitual criminals go to criminal town
[23:32:21] <t12> punishing 2 doesnt fix 1
[23:32:26] <Jymmm> Valen: Nah, they should pass down their skills to those that aren't.
[23:32:42] <Valen> that would be a good part of their punishment
[23:33:02] <Valen> I'm talking about things like DUI and bar brawls
[23:33:08] <ReadError> Valen: what i have been saying
[23:33:10] <Valen> or fraud
[23:33:12] <ReadError> there are programs like this
[23:33:21] <Valen> yeah but generally they are crap
[23:33:25] <ReadError> many places also raise/train helper dogs
[23:33:34] <ReadError> to help the disabled
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[23:33:49] <Valen> and not recognised anywhere and the criminal isn't actually started into a new life they are given a bit of paper and kicked out
[23:34:02] <Valen> they are type 2 people to use t12s terminoligy
[23:34:30] <Jymmm> ReadError: Those could even move on to become vet techs even
[23:34:54] <Jymmm> and I guess even dog walkers make some good money too.
[23:34:54] <Valen> although if somebody rips off several million dollars from retired people, it seems appropriate that they get a university level degree in ethics
[23:35:04] <t12> lol
[23:35:10] <t12> if you're able to steal money like that
[23:35:16] <t12> an ethics course isnt gonna do much
[23:35:38] <Valen> t12 then the 4 hours a day you spend breaking rocks might change your mind ;->
[23:35:39] <Jymmm> Valen: Nah, should have to teach those ppl they ripped off on how NOT to get ripped off, all 1M of em =)
[23:35:47] <Valen> Jymmm: good call
[23:35:58] <Valen> I feel justice should be poetic as well as rapid
[23:36:09] <Jymmm> Justice should NOT be blind
[23:37:24] <ReadError> you have doctors in prision
[23:37:26] <ReadError> prison*
[23:37:30] <ReadError> the talent is there
[23:37:50] <ReadError> sure, they might have prescribed out 500k oxycotin when they where a doctor to folks who didnt need them
[23:37:53] <Jymmm> There ya go.... FREE MEDICAL!
[23:37:54] <ReadError> but they still know medicine
[23:38:25] <t12> however if you s/oxycontin/zyprexa
[23:38:29] <t12> totally chill
[23:38:47] <t12> or insert antipsychotic of your choice
[23:38:51] <ReadError> yea
[23:38:58] <ReadError> thats why kids are all messed up these days
[23:39:01] <t12> seroquel seems very popular
[23:39:17] <t12> seroquel withdrawl might be worse than opiate withdrawl
[23:39:18] <ReadError> their parents where all doped up on drugs that causes birth defects
[23:39:41] <Jymmm> ReadError: They can still be taught to grab a garden hose.
[23:40:00] <Jymmm> pull weeds, etc
[23:40:04] <ReadError> Jymmm: many places do that
[23:40:17] <ReadError> everything in most prisons is inmate maintained
[23:40:25] <ReadError> electrical, hvac, water, etc
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[23:40:36] <Jymmm> ReadError: I NEVER said inside a prison.
[23:40:37] <ReadError> food
[23:41:27] <Jymmm> Being in a prison costs money, they should be serving the public at large.
[23:41:46] <Jymmm> Toss an electronic collar on em.
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[23:42:09] <ReadError> that still cost money
[23:42:16] <ReadError> you have fees and cost associated with that
[23:42:28] <t12> you dont try and recoup costs of operating prisons
[23:42:32] <Jymmm> Nah, if they can make a $30 cellphone, I'm sure they cna make a $20 people collar
[23:42:34] <t12> otherwise you end up with whats going on in the US
[23:42:43] <t12> where the prison population is essentially a corp workforce
[23:42:48] <t12> with lobbyists trying to get more workers
[23:42:50] <t12> via laws
[23:42:50] <ReadError> UNICOR
[23:43:02] <ReadError> they make stuff for the miltary, gov
[23:44:21] <Jymmm> tracking collar... they don't report in x time, they get zaped
[23:44:33] <ReadError> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003XREJOK/ref=pe_175190_21431760_M3T1_SC_dp_1
[23:44:36] <ReadError> ordered that today
[23:44:44] <ReadError> only 5 gallon but should work nice on the mill
[23:45:24] <Jymmm> 1.25" hose?
[23:45:30] <ReadError> i ordered a 2.5"
[23:45:36] <Jymmm> ah
[23:45:39] <ReadError> its made for 2.5, but has a coupler
[23:45:50] <ReadError> the locline stuff is 2.5 so i needed to get that anyways
[23:45:50] <Jymmm> bastards
[23:46:09] <ReadError> well for most stuff like cleaning up workbenches the 1.25 works better imo
[23:46:19] <ReadError> but cleaning the floor 2.5" all the way
[23:46:26] <Jymmm> nah, but the crevis tool will help
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[23:46:58] <ReadError> i only got 2' of the locline
[23:47:06] <ReadError> but i figure that should work ok
[23:47:45] <jdh> do people use it for vacuum?
[23:48:11] <ReadError> jdh: I think thats what its made for
[23:48:29] <ReadError> http://www.amazon.com/Loc-Line-Component-Copolymer-Elements-Segment/dp/B006R9OV94/ref=pd_sim_indust_2
[23:50:20] <Jymmm> what are you going to suck with the locline?
[23:50:30] <jdh> cool. I've only seen it used for blowing and coolant
[23:50:34] <ReadError> g10/cf dust
[23:50:38] <ReadError> and aluminum
[23:50:44] <ReadError> g10 is some nasty stuff
[23:50:56] <ReadError> this i can suck it straight in to a HEPA