#linuxcnc | Logs for 2012-12-23

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[00:31:50] <Jymmm> Does anyone have any 2-56 countersunk head screws by chance?
[00:32:44] <Jymmm> 2-56 x 0.25" long would work
[00:35:34] <andypugh> I suspect that very many people have.
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[00:44:55] <Tom_itx> Jymmm i may
[00:45:04] <Tom_itx> sure i have 4-40
[00:46:27] <Tom_itx> nope just 4-40
[00:46:36] <andypugh> <does not understand US screw naming> So, how does one work out how big a 2-56 is?
[00:46:50] <Tom_itx> #2
[00:47:02] <andypugh> Two pounds?
[00:47:13] <andypugh> That sounds like quite a big one.
[00:47:20] <Tom_itx> no
[00:47:35] <Tom_itx> starts at #0 and goes to #14 before fractions
[00:47:43] <andypugh> Because....
[00:48:10] <Tom_itx> actually fractional sizes intermesh with those
[00:48:18] <Tom_itx> starting at 1/16" i think
[00:48:36] <Tom_itx> 0-80
[00:48:42] <andypugh> So why not call them by their actual size?
[00:48:42] <Tom_itx> 80 tpi
[00:48:54] <Tom_itx> that is their size
[00:49:18] <andypugh> OK, so why not name them by their dimensions?
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[00:49:44] <Tom_itx> somebody felt the need to have screw sizes between fractional sizes i guess
[00:49:55] <andypugh> Use decimals?
[00:50:00] <Tom_itx> just like our number, letter and fractional size drills
[00:50:58] <andypugh> For example, the Whitworth Instrument thread sizes were the diameter in thousandths of an inch. And 10 WI is really rather teeny.
[00:51:30] <Tom_itx> playing with my new white/blue lcds. i kinda like that color
[00:55:04] <pcw_home> andypugh: yes you can reduce the output that way
[00:55:55] <andypugh> I will bear it in mind. Need to get the scope on it. Tamagawa data sheets say 0.5 ratio, but I am seeing 1:1
[00:56:00] <Tom_itx> i have a 1/4" whitworth wrench and it's no where near 1/4"
[00:57:10] <cradek> andypugh: you don't work it out, you have a feel for the size from experience, and if you need numbers, you have to look at a table.
[00:57:44] <cradek> 2-56 is maybe somewhere around pencil lead size
[00:58:41] <cradek> also, we all have a poster-sized chart on the wall at our shops
[00:58:56] <andypugh> Tom_itx: 1/4" Whitworth spanners are for 1/4" Whitworth bolts.
[00:59:53] <andypugh> I need to add some more to my thread table. It actually lacks the small metric sizes: http://www.bodgesoc.org/thread_dia_pitch.html
[01:00:41] <cradek> andypugh: starrett has had nice posters available free for the asking, I think since day 1
[01:02:03] <Tom_itx> andypugh, yep that's what i got it for :)
[01:02:12] <Tom_itx> some limey car from way back
[01:02:36] <Tom_itx> MG or Triumph probably
[01:03:28] <andypugh> The idea of my table is that they are all on the same list, so it's good for identifying things, and working out what will _nearly_ fit, and what can fit inside what to make an insert, that sort of thing. For example I made a self-centering vice by spotting two threads with the same pitch, but in which the smaller would slip through the larger for assembly.
[01:04:01] <cradek> this is the poster in my shop, and I don't know why you'd buy it on ebay since starrett gives them for free: http://www.ebay.com/itm/230896470827
[01:04:34] <Tom_itx> yeah i've got drill/ thread posters all over
[01:04:42] <andypugh> Tom_itx: I work on a 1916 vehicle. Some time during the War they swapped all the Whitworth head sizes to the BSF head sizes (next size down). Which rather complicates spanner selection.
[01:05:17] <Tom_itx> i honestly don't remember what it was for but i would bet one of those two
[01:05:44] <Tom_itx> and likely positive GND and 6v system maybe
[01:06:44] <Tom_itx> those pocket ones are nice too
[01:07:17] <andypugh> I have a Zeus table.
[01:07:53] <andypugh> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Zeus-Precision-Engineers-Metric-Data-Book-Charts-Reference-Tables-Drill-Tap-Size-/190580021532?pt=UK_BOI_Metalworking_Milling_Welding_Metalworking_Supplies_ET&hash=item2c5f74591c
[01:08:27] <andypugh> But it's largely irrelevant as only use metric unless I have a good reason not to.
[01:11:47] <cradek> andypugh: here, metric fasteners are MUCH more expensive. like 5-10x. metric tools are too, sometimes. there's plenty of reason to use inch stuff even if you're neutral otherwise.
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[01:12:30] <andypugh> I found that in SF shopping for stuff to fix the boat.
[01:14:44] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: Thanks for looking
[01:16:04] <andypugh> I am rather a fan of Whitworth. There is a reason that Joe Whitworth chose 55 degrees for the thread angle, and rounding it up to 60 degrees actually helps no-one as it doesn't actually make it any easier to make the thread because the angle is easy to draw with compases.
[01:16:05] <Jymmm> andypugh: Certain portion of my laser are pre-threaded for accesories. These just happen to be one of them.
[01:16:50] <Jymmm> I'm making my own air-assist nozzle, plumbing, etc
[01:17:17] <L84Supper> if i ever get the chance I'm going to go back in time and fix lots of this stuff
[01:18:39] <andypugh> I have dismantled Whitworth threads that have spent 50 years in a field and were so rusted that they were two spanner sizes down, and they came apart cleanly. I have tried to dismantle 10 year old UNF fasteners on a Mini and they have utterly siezed and had to be cut off.
[01:19:13] <andypugh> L84Supper: http://xkcd.com/927/
[01:19:55] <Jymmm> andypugh: what does that have to do with thread size?
[01:21:22] <andypugh> I think it is related to thread angle and pitch to diameter ratio. I am not sure _how_ it is related. But I don't think 55 degrees was a random number
[01:21:36] <Jymmm> ah, ok.
[01:21:39] <AR_> it is linearly proportional
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[01:39:12] <IAmWill> does anyone know of a better solution to pycam? I really enjoy it, however, there seems to be a HUGE memory leak or something, because after about 2 minutes of use, it starts to slow my computer and eventually freezes it.
[01:39:46] <IAmWill> doing 2D with it is simple, but when you start getting 3D models that have a little more detail and need 2 or 3 passes, it cant handle it
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[04:00:21] <RoyOnWheels> anyone in Oklahoma, Portland Or, Seattle?
[04:06:33] <jdh> not me, thankfully.
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[04:19:04] <cradek> why?
[04:20:39] <jdh> because I'd be a long way from home!
[04:40:44] <alpha1125> heh
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[05:23:34] <kwallace> Hello. My HNC lathe has home and index sensors so I usually use AXIS' home button to set the machine's home. For to moment I'm using a stepper UI which has no homing button. Is there another way to invoke homing? Also another way to get off the soft limits?
[05:25:07] <cradek> nope. you'd have to run a second ui.
[05:25:57] <cradek> also, stepper machines have homing and limits too, so the distinction you're making is weird to me.
[05:26:50] <cradek> halui is the most common "second" ui people run, but it's possible with any of them.
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[05:27:15] <kwallace> I was thinking of using Glade to add the buttons I needed to the UI I'm testing.
[05:28:36] <kwallace> I mentioned the stepper bit because that's the only thing that came to mind as to why there is no homing or limit override.
[05:29:01] <cradek> just sounds unfinished...
[05:29:15] <cradek> "test complete, can't home"
[05:30:13] <cradek> hehe "expected behavior: I can home. actual behavior: ..."
[05:30:37] <kwallace> But the real lathe is being used. I must be missing something.
[05:31:45] <cradek> maybe they don't have switches on it yet.
[05:32:45] <cradek> you need a really repeatable X homing on a serious lathe. I wonder how they will do that without index.
[05:35:54] <kwallace> I haven't tried it yet but I was thinking of mounting a flag on my stepper Shizuoka screws which steps a little under .5 degrees at a time.
[05:38:09] <cradek> worth a try... if you can detect one step that's the best you can hope for.
[05:42:12] <kwallace> I'm half stepping at the moment, giving me .0005" per half step. Playing with the G540 is making lust for a multi-step driver but if I change drivers I'll go with servos. (notice no 's)
[05:42:56] <kwallace> The Tormach uses three phase steppers which I'd like to play with too.
[05:43:17] <cradek> .0005 radius is kind of a lot, isn't it
[05:43:37] <cradek> geckos are nice, it's true
[05:43:57] <cradek> 3 phase! is that a common thing?
[05:44:36] <cradek> like bipolar but 6 wires for 3 windings?
[05:45:11] <kwallace> .0005" per half step of screw rotation. I would put the flag out as far as I can.
[05:45:28] <kwallace> Yes 6 wire.
[05:45:51] <AR_> 3 windings
[05:45:55] <AR_> wire on each end
[05:45:58] <AR_> 6 wires
[05:46:02] <AR_> pretty obvious
[05:46:06] <cradek> cool. I bet that works a lot better than traditional
[05:47:10] <cradek> AR_: many steppers have center tapped windings, sometimes separate, sometimes tied together.
[05:48:13] <cradek> common steppers can be found in 4, 5, 6, 8 wire.
[05:48:31] <AR_> yes
[05:49:06] <cradek> so, it's not "obvious" and was not a stupid question.
[05:50:11] <kwallace> It's this or something similar, http://www.leadshine.com/Product_Show.aspx?ID=133
[05:51:06] <cradek> thanks
[05:51:21] <kwallace> There is a white paper on Tormach's website covering there evaluation of different motor types. I can't seem to find it off hand.
[05:52:20] <cradek> I've seen a possibly earlier version
[05:52:59] <cradek> "why steppers!?" is a faq I'm sure they deal with.
[05:56:45] <kwallace> In the paper, they have graphs showing position errors and the three phase beat out the servo when also considering other issues such as smooth running. I seem to recall the servo had rougher motion.
[05:57:03] <kwallace> I'll have to find the link.
[05:57:59] <kwallace> I think it's here at the bottom: http://www.tormach.com/product_3_phase_axis_motors.html
[06:01:18] <kwallace> Oops I meant their up there.
[06:02:00] <tjb1> A 2011 version of beavis and butthead :)
[06:02:57] <kwallace> Thank's for the halui hint, I'll look into it. Then I won't need to fiddle with the test UI.
[06:05:12] <cradek> I scanned it and don't think they compared with velocity mode servos.
[06:05:39] <cradek> (although there were lots of drives by part number that I don't know)
[06:10:05] <kwallace> You got me there, I don't know. I think they where considering drives and motors from there normal vendor list.
[06:10:30] <kwallace> Oops. did it again "their"
[06:12:47] * tjb1 is a grammar nazi
[06:15:59] <kwallace> ^ Thank's is wrong too.
[06:16:11] <kwallace> I think.
[06:17:08] <tjb1> "Thank is" :P
[06:18:04] <tjb1> I'm not a grammar nazi, I am too lazy to use the ' most of the time so I usually just type "dont". You get the idea.
[06:18:58] <kwallace> http://howtosayit.blogspot.com/2007/06/thanks-vs-thanks.html
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[06:27:11] <cradek> kwallace: I can't decide whether that blog is funny intentionally.
[06:27:32] <cradek> good night!
[06:27:38] <tjb1> Bye cradek
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[06:29:12] <kwallace> I just read the first couple of paragraphs and moved on. G'night.
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[08:09:04] <DJ9DJ> moin
[08:09:11] <tjb1> evenin
[08:10:16] <DJ9DJ> good morning! ;)
[08:10:22] <DJ9DJ> 9am here
[08:10:34] <tjb1> 3am here
[08:10:35] <markvandenborre> morning :)
[08:11:03] <markvandenborre> any hints what kind of machine I would buy
[08:11:11] <markvandenborre> no self building at all
[08:11:21] <tjb1> For what?
[08:11:22] <markvandenborre> I'm not scared of software configuration
[08:11:49] <markvandenborre> I want to do 2.5d 18mm birch plywood routing
[08:11:53] <archivist> dont stick at one machine
[08:11:55] <markvandenborre> it's mostly cutting even
[08:12:13] <markvandenborre> but it crucially also needs some routing
[08:12:29] <tjb1> Im not familiar with machines in europe…or that side of the world which I am guessing you are form
[08:12:31] <tjb1> *from
[08:13:35] <markvandenborre> it should easily work with 2400x1.200 mm (8'x4' in pre-metric measures) panels
[08:14:04] <markvandenborre> and no proprietary software
[08:15:07] <markvandenborre> archivist: not sure what you mean by that
[08:16:13] <markvandenborre> I have fairly well defined work that needs doing
[08:16:16] <archivist> first four questions implied doing anything
[08:16:54] <markvandenborre> you mean you need more information?
[08:17:00] <archivist> sometimes building yourself to suit a job can be better/cheaper
[08:17:46] <archivist> how hard will you be using the machine
[08:18:23] <markvandenborre> cutting about 100 boards a year?
[08:18:44] <markvandenborre> (8'x4', 2.4x1.2m)
[08:19:00] <markvandenborre> sorry, routing
[08:19:49] <markvandenborre> is that a useful answer?
[08:20:29] <archivist> better idea of of what you are wanting
[08:24:19] <markvandenborre> what other questions would you need answered to suggest me where to get started?
[08:26:43] <archivist> also we dont know your price range
[08:27:12] <markvandenborre> is it realistic to get something like this in the sub-10000€ price range?
[08:27:59] <archivist> I see no problem self building at that price
[08:28:29] <archivist> I think there are some german sellers around that price ish
[08:28:55] <markvandenborre> and what kind of budget would one need for a package?
[08:29:29] <markvandenborre> again, I'm not scared of configuring software on a *nix box
[08:29:39] <archivist> have you looked on ebay for cnc router
[08:30:16] <tjb1> Goodnight all
[08:30:31] <archivist> http://www.routoutcnc.com/z90router.html
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[08:33:09] <archivist> google for cnc router too as it will find something near you
[08:34:19] <markvandenborre> archivist: I just feel a little lost
[08:34:42] <markvandenborre> without enough information to start my search
[08:35:19] <markvandenborre> it's clear to me that linuxcnc is about the only package that will allow me to do this work with free software
[08:35:23] <archivist> I dont have a router here and I dont remember two users in here having the same thing
[08:35:58] <markvandenborre> oh, I'm not complaining, quite to the contrary
[08:36:05] <markvandenborre> I'm really grateful for your hints!
[08:36:22] <archivist> so many of the users in here do get their hands dirty making/modifying the machines too
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[08:37:27] * markvandenborre is reading about ball bearing versus rack & pinion
[08:37:40] <markvandenborre> sorry, ball screw veruss rack & pinion
[08:38:35] <archivist> rack and pinion will have backlash usually although it can be cheaper
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[08:41:40] <archivist> how will you hold down the board, some use a vacuum bed
[08:42:32] <markvandenborre> archivist: backlash equals loss of accuracy I suppose?
[08:43:29] <archivist> yes and also worse is that allows the cutting force to move an axis which can cause a breakage
[08:44:29] <archivist> also a flimsy machine that can bend under load can have similar problems
[08:46:08] <archivist> machine flex can also be responsible for poor finish and noise
[08:47:25] <markvandenborre> on rack & pinion versus ball screw:
[08:47:58] <markvandenborre> everything seems to suggest rack & pinion for large size (2.4x1.2m) woodworking purposes
[08:49:32] <markvandenborre> are there any (small) manufacturers that offer a ready made kit that includes linuxcnc?
[08:49:40] <archivist> look for the drive gear being forced into mesh to remove backlash
[08:49:43] <markvandenborre> or ready made machine even?
[08:50:09] <markvandenborre> archivist: sorry, can you elaborate on that "drive gear being forced"?
[08:53:52] <archivist> the motor with pinion is on a hinged mount with a spring pulling the assembly into mesh
[08:54:33] <markvandenborre> I see
[08:55:16] <markvandenborre> so as I read, it seems ball screw based machines are more difficult to get calibrated in the beginning
[08:55:34] <markvandenborre> but they are superior in terms of accuracy and longevity
[08:55:40] <markvandenborre> & maintenance
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[08:55:57] <markvandenborre> and they are quite a bit more expensive too
[08:56:55] <archivist> if worth putting a ballscrew on then the machine itself should be more solid
[09:00:51] <markvandenborre> what should I budget for a ball screw based machine
[09:00:54] <markvandenborre> 8x4
[09:01:11] <markvandenborre> that I want to run with linuxcnc?
[09:06:03] <archivist> i would have to do all your research for you to answer that :)
[09:07:05] <Jymmm> ...and charge a modest research fee of 95%
[09:07:07] <markvandenborre> I'm really looking for a rough estimate
[09:07:10] <archivist> I dont know which country you are in
[09:07:25] <markvandenborre> Jymmm: :-)
[09:07:37] <archivist> hmmm feee
[09:08:47] <markvandenborre> Jymmm: maybe you can tell me if there is a finished product already available using linuxcnc somewhere?
[09:09:25] <Jymmm> Only sherline
[09:09:54] * markvandenborre googling
[09:10:23] <Jymmm> Well, there's one out of China or India around $40,000 USD, but it's not 4x8ft
[09:12:16] <archivist> some vendors will look at you funny when you spend x and want to save a tiny percentage to use linuxcnc instead of mach3
[09:13:31] <markvandenborre> archivist: it's not so much about saving a few cents
[09:14:02] <markvandenborre> I'm a free software person with a lot of my time invested in *nix knowledge
[09:15:51] <markvandenborre> maybe that doesn't make sense from a pragmatical point of view
[09:16:06] <markvandenborre> but I'm very very weary of artificial limitations set in software
[09:16:15] <markvandenborre> ("anti-features")
[09:16:31] <markvandenborre> and I'm a little scared of having to administer a machine that I have no realy control over
[09:16:45] <markvandenborre> (I'm talking the controlling desktop too)
[09:16:45] <awallin_> heh, get a haas and pay 2-5k for them to unlock rigid-tapping and high-speed machining from the control :)
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[09:17:57] <markvandenborre> awallin_: not sure what you mean there in practical terms, but I guess you just described an example of what I was scared of?
[09:18:44] <awallin_> yeah.. but OTOH the commercial controls ship on machines that cost 20k and up so a few k for software is small money then
[09:20:07] <markvandenborre> hm, HAAS really seems to be evil
[09:20:40] <markvandenborre> so let me try and summarise some things I think I have learned today
[09:20:51] <awallin_> it's like pricing at starbucks.. you want specials -> you pay :)
[09:21:15] <markvandenborre> they lock people out of their own machines after 800 hours of use, first hit on google
[09:21:55] <markvandenborre> r&p probably beats ball screw for light use on big machines
[09:22:26] <markvandenborre> they will wear more quickly, but if you only route wood, that should help a lot already
[09:22:29] <archivist> you want specials for a sensible cost...build
[09:22:46] <awallin_> rack and pinion might beat cost-wise, probably not performance wise
[09:23:11] <markvandenborre> there are no commercially available linuxcnc based machines
[09:23:45] <markvandenborre> and quite a few small EU based companies that provide r&p machines
[09:23:49] <archivist> actually any machine that has a controller driven from a parallel port can be used
[09:24:40] <markvandenborre> you consistently keep saying "build"
[09:24:41] <archivist> any of the machines where you supply the pc and mach will also be usable with little effort
[09:25:04] <archivist> because I built my first machine :)
[09:25:51] <markvandenborre> do you really think that is feasible for someone who has never ever done any physical machine yet?
[09:26:30] <archivist> if your required "feature set" is missing from commercial
[09:26:43] <archivist> depends on skills
[09:27:12] <markvandenborre> I did build a reprap in a workshop two years ago, but that was with very very capable guidance and extremely clear instructions
[09:27:18] <markvandenborre> and all parts perfectly laid out
[09:28:40] <archivist> I come from a design background and had experience of manual machines doing the job I wanted with cnc
[09:28:50] <markvandenborre> is there a high profile hardware build documentation project?
[09:29:07] <markvandenborre> because my background is ... teaching the classical guitar
[09:29:10] <markvandenborre> :)à
[09:29:14] <archivist> there are a number or router projects documented
[09:29:38] <archivist> or/of
[09:29:53] <archivist> some have plans
[09:30:09] <markvandenborre> is there one with a multiple member non-profit community project around it
[09:30:55] <markvandenborre> with parts documented in free cad files, preferably made using a free cad program?
[09:30:57] <archivist> I think there are one or two, I would have to google to though
[09:31:05] <awallin_> have you looked at cnczone, e.g. http://www.cnczone.com/forums/cnc_wood_router_project_log/127895-my_8020_router_build.html
[09:31:30] <awallin_> cnczone might not be that well organized, but if there are good individuals who have documented their project that might be enough
[09:33:31] <awallin_> that thread looks quite OK (haven't read all of it) , but there are many other similar ones
[09:33:51] <markvandenborre> awallin_: thank you for your hint
[09:33:59] <markvandenborre> I did set the bar quite high though
[09:36:07] <markvandenborre> documentation probably doesn't exist up to the level of detail I need
[09:36:42] <archivist> the set of pictures of djdelorie's machine (wooden) are educational in what can be done from scratch
[09:37:31] <archivist> if I could remember the url
[09:38:34] <archivist> http://www.delorie.com/search/search.cgi?search=cnc&db=main
[09:39:13] <archivist> he made his own electronics, but then he can :)
[09:39:28] <Jymmm> heh
[09:43:13] <archivist> it is also not a requirement to have exact plans and drawings as one can adapt and "fit", my first cnc was made from scrap and parts of other machines
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[09:46:06] <markvandenborre> archivist: I would rather not build a machine myself, but if I have to, I would rather not improvise on a first attempt
[09:46:32] <markvandenborre> hence the question about adapting
[09:47:07] <markvandenborre> oops, about well documented plans with broad community support
[09:48:14] <archivist> some are based on aluminium extrusions for machine building
[09:48:21] <awallin_> there are all MDF (wooden particle board) builds also, if you want to start cheap
[09:49:07] <cncbasher> markvandenborre:give me a few mins and i'll throw some in my dropbox for you to look at
[09:49:23] <markvandenborre> thanks a lot all for the helpful hints!
[09:50:25] <archivist> I still dont know which country
[09:50:38] <markvandenborre> archivist: I live in two countries actually
[09:50:44] <markvandenborre> Belgium and Latvia
[09:51:04] <markvandenborre> well, at least, I work in both
[09:51:11] <archivist> ah ok, you could ask Loetmichel to make you one
[09:51:36] * archivist ducks
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[09:52:34] <markvandenborre> :)à
[09:52:51] <markvandenborre> s/:)à/:-)/
[09:53:39] <archivist> he has made a few machines and uses the ply that is used for trailer flooring
[09:54:05] <cncbasher> markvandenborre: https://dropbox.com/sh/d1837bg4yg4ii16/AcFXA1t9mn
[09:56:31] <archivist> his are a similar design to http://www.joescnc.com/themachines-06.php
[09:57:07] <cncbasher> opps bad link
[09:57:10] <cncbasher> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/dl837bg4yg4ii16/AcFXAlt9mn
[09:58:57] <markvandenborre> thx cncbasher
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[09:59:44] <cncbasher> no problem is their is quite a lot their so may take some time , just shout if i can help
[10:01:41] <Jymmm> markvandenborre: How much are you guessing this endevor is going to cost/earmark for?
[10:01:57] <Jymmm> markvandenborre: give me a real number
[10:02:53] * archivist remembers 10k euro
[10:04:10] <Jymmm> seems a tad low, but could be
[10:04:48] <Jymmm> cncbasher: I snagged it too, thanks. I liked the in mentioned deflection.
[10:06:19] <Jymmm> cncbasher: If you got one for a 4x10ft laser, let me know =)
[10:06:49] <archivist> just scale the dimensions!
[10:06:54] <Jymmm> Man, that would be so nice.... FULL SHEET =)
[10:07:10] <cncbasher> yea got a few
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[10:07:35] <Jymmm> archivist: Only suck thing is the haight adjustable baed to focus the laser.
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[10:08:21] <archivist> you have z
[10:08:25] <cncbasher> so much easier to move the z than the bed
[10:08:42] <cncbasher> let alone cheaper
[10:09:01] <Jymmm> The bed IS Z on mine
[10:09:06] <cncbasher> Jymmm:lasersaur ?
[10:09:16] <Jymmm> ?
[10:10:07] <Jymmm> cncbasher: I have a CO2 Laser now, just want bigger and more power
[10:10:22] <Jymmm> ug ug ug
[10:10:36] <Jymmm> I'd love 250W
[10:10:44] <cncbasher> mines 600w
[10:11:01] <Jymmm> I mostly do acrylic
[10:11:07] <cncbasher> but the laser design was a pain to get right
[10:11:18] <Jymmm> why?
[10:12:00] <cncbasher> yea 250w should be fine for acrylic
[10:12:22] <cncbasher> the tube is 7 foot long
[10:12:30] <Jymmm> Well, up to about 1/2" or so at least. And most wood.
[10:12:36] <Jymmm> hahahaha
[10:13:01] <Jymmm> You got one of those china tubes, huh?
[10:13:02] <cncbasher> and made up in sections , so building a frame to keep alignment took some work
[10:14:00] <Jymmm> If I was todo 4x10ft, I think I'd look at a fiber laser instead.
[10:14:37] <Jymmm> cncbasher: WTF are you cutting with 600W?
[10:14:50] <cncbasher> 4-6mm steel
[10:15:03] <Jymmm> CO2 ?
[10:15:06] <cncbasher> yes
[10:15:24] <Jymmm> Something dont seem right with that
[10:15:59] <Jymmm> Why not a YaG ?
[10:16:37] <Jymmm> cncbasher: where are you?
[10:17:04] <archivist> in the frozen north
[10:17:16] <Jymmm> Canuck?
[10:17:28] <archivist> nah north of me
[10:17:34] <Jymmm> oh
[10:17:45] <cncbasher> haha not that far ... Hartlepool north east
[10:18:19] <Jymmm> cncbasher: Thik you can cut 10mil SS ?
[10:18:21] <Jymmm> think
[10:18:28] <cncbasher> iv'e never touched a YaG
[10:18:57] <cncbasher> nope you need at least 1.5kw or more for that ...
[10:19:04] <archivist> we use thou over here not mil
[10:19:20] <archivist> he is talking thin shit I think
[10:19:32] <cncbasher> arh yea
[10:19:53] <Jymmm> cncbasher: .254mm
[10:19:56] <archivist> bugger all self cooling
[10:20:32] <Jymmm> cncbasher: aka shim stock
[10:20:46] <cncbasher> shims no problem
[10:21:08] <Jymmm> cncbasher: how many could you stack and cut cleanly?
[10:21:16] <markvandenborre> 11:01:54 < Jymmm> markvandenborre: How much are you guessing this endevor is going to cost/earmark for?
[10:22:43] <cncbasher> dont like stacking , causes more problems than it solves
[10:23:20] <Jymmm> heh
[10:23:22] <cncbasher> you need to keep the sheets flat , and shim is horrible to keep flat
[10:23:52] <markvandenborre> 10000€ is manageable, but I have no idea if it is a sufficient kind of budget for that kind of application
[10:24:50] <Jymmm> markvandenborre: Ok, that's realistic at least. If you look around, you should be able to keep well within that range.
[10:25:19] <Jymmm> markvandenborre: Three words will cover your ass...
[10:25:27] <markvandenborre> Jymmm: realistic for building or for buying?
[10:25:34] <Jymmm> markvandenborre: PLANNING! PLANNING! PLANNING!
[10:25:52] <Jymmm> building
[10:26:16] <markvandenborre> maybe the more sensible option when building would be to build something small
[10:26:24] <Jymmm> markvandenborre: But, for the most part it's NOT going to be a paint-by-numbers thing.
[10:26:46] <markvandenborre> smaller builds seem to avoid all kinds of problems
[10:27:01] <Jymmm> markvandenborre: small or large, it's not going to make THAT much of a difference
[10:27:24] <markvandenborre> ah, k, thought issues with backlash, vibrations and imperfections...
[10:27:32] <Jymmm> you'll spend a LOT on a small machine too.
[10:28:01] <Jymmm> You'll learn a lot though, mostly what NOT to do =)
[10:28:03] <markvandenborre> it's not so much about the spending, but about eliminating at least some of the complexity
[10:28:15] <markvandenborre> and gaining experience indeed
[10:28:42] <Jymmm> You might consider buying something ready to go instead.
[10:29:06] <Jymmm> markvandenborre: you don't really sound like you want to get into the details too much.
[10:29:29] <Jymmm> markvandenborre: Do you have any shop tools?
[10:29:32] <markvandenborre> exavtly what I thought
[10:29:42] <markvandenborre> not really
[10:29:49] <Jymmm> drill press?
[10:29:52] <Jymmm> saws?
[10:30:42] <Jymmm> markvandenborre: Do you own a DMM/voltmeter?
[10:30:44] <markvandenborre> no drill press, a friend has very good miter saws and quite a decent (hand) router
[10:30:49] <markvandenborre> Jymmm: of course
[10:30:56] <Jymmm> No, not of course.
[10:31:04] <Jymmm> markvandenborre: dial calipers?
[10:31:06] <markvandenborre> I'm grateful you ask
[10:31:32] <Jymmm> welder?
[10:31:44] <Jymmm> well, if you dont have a drill press, I doubt you have a wleder
[10:31:57] <markvandenborre> no welder, I do have digital calipers
[10:32:55] <markvandenborre> (only used it when I was in this reprap workshop, same thing with the multimeter)
[10:33:12] <markvandenborre> I feel you are asking really pertinent questions here
[10:33:17] <Jymmm> Even with 80/20, you still need to mill slots in it for some things.
[10:33:41] <Jymmm> can use a good saw for cutting the extrusion.
[10:34:00] <archivist> some do precut and drilled extrusions
[10:34:23] <Jymmm> You'll need some way to turn the ballscrews if you don't order them that way
[10:35:27] <Jymmm> I'd either order a kit (ebay?) or buy something premade.
[10:37:39] <Jymmm> markvandenborre: what material do you plan on machining?
[10:40:31] <markvandenborre> 18mm baltic birch plywood
[10:41:02] <markvandenborre> either standard 4x8 or 4x4
[10:41:14] <Jymmm> for business or hobby?
[10:41:19] <markvandenborre> (half a plate) would also do
[10:41:28] <markvandenborre> I run a tiny open hardware business
[10:42:08] <markvandenborre> not high volume at all, but time spent on building this is not free
[10:42:45] <markvandenborre> interesting as I think it would be, I need to spend time on a lot of things
[10:43:17] <markvandenborre> I currently have my cnc work outsourced
[10:44:29] <cncbasher> 18mm birch == a lot of effort .. you need a large machine ..see http://www.mechmate.com
[10:45:39] <cncbasher> if you dont have access to basic tools then purchase a machine built , it's a large outlay to get things correct
[10:53:57] <markvandenborre> is it acceptable to mention a specific manufacturer here to review?
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[10:57:02] <awallin_> almost anything goes in here :)
[10:57:36] <markvandenborre> http://www.worldofcnc.com/8-x-4-rack-and-pinion-free-standing-cnc-router-package-p-1328.html
[10:57:38] <awallin_> mostly you get what you pay for... (e.g. chinese super cheap kits)
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[10:58:10] <markvandenborre> (I hate the fact that the package comes with a windows machine)
[10:59:33] <archivist> you could ask that maker to drop the windows box probably
[10:59:57] <markvandenborre> and it should be easy to use this one with linuxcnc?
[10:59:58] <awallin_> looks OKish. have you looked at the steppers vs. servos debate yet ? :)
[11:00:21] <archivist> ask them
[11:00:28] <markvandenborre> I'll try to summarise that as mostly: steppers = open loop, servos= closed loop
[11:00:45] <markvandenborre> awallin_: is there anything else to it?
[11:01:21] <archivist> servos faster and more powerful and less error prone
[11:01:47] <awallin_> markvandenborre: well when you start to get into the 10k range for the machine you should/could look at servos also. especially if you have electronics background and are not afraid to experiment. steppers might be easier and safer for a first machine.
[11:17:46] <Loetmichel> mornin'
[11:18:11] <Loetmichel> ... hu? what should i build?
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[11:20:45] <markvandenborre> Loetmichel: he was joking :)
[11:20:53] <archivist> or not
[11:21:26] <markvandenborre> I'm a newbie when it comes to cnc routing, and I am looking for a machine
[11:22:18] <markvandenborre> I would really really really love to use Debian to control it instead of anything proprietary
[11:28:46] <Loetmichel> hmmmm
[11:29:05] <markvandenborre> (more info about what I am looking for above)
[11:29:43] <markvandenborre> any suggestions welcome
[11:29:46] <Loetmichel> i would suggest to buy a chinese one, is cheaper than me buildig one... -> http://www.ebay.de/itm/290771237919 for example
[11:30:55] <Loetmichel> a fiend has bought this model: useable, but could be a bit more rigid. But if you mount it on a sturdy table it is OK.
[11:31:08] <Loetmichel> +r
[11:31:17] <archivist> bit light and small
[11:31:36] <archivist> he wants 8x4 ft
[11:31:57] <Loetmichel> archivist: right, but the best bang for the buck in the low price segment i've found so far
[11:32:28] <Loetmichel> foot= ~33cm, right?
[11:32:47] <archivist> yup
[11:33:01] <Loetmichel> ok, thats a big one ;-)
[11:33:06] <archivist> full sheets of 18mm ply
[11:33:49] <Loetmichel> my biggest was about 170cm by 120cm movement...
[11:34:03] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=11205
[11:35:07] <Loetmichel> and this one was 150cm by 102cm travel: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=4935 and had cost about 4,5kEur in materials alone.
[11:35:57] <Loetmichel> and somewhere in the range of 700 hrs to build
[11:39:49] <Loetmichel> so i doubt markvandenborre would want to pay me ;-)
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[12:09:52] <markvandenborre> actually, the widest part I have to cut out is about 657 mm wide
[12:10:28] <markvandenborre> so I might get started and learn a lot with a simpler machine like the one you suggested
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[12:13:49] <markvandenborre> maybe it would be a good starting point for learning
[12:14:20] <markvandenborre> the only question I have about it is maximum dimensions:
[12:14:22] <markvandenborre> Effective working travel:
[12:14:24] <markvandenborre> 400(X)mm*580(Y)mm*75(Z)mm
[12:14:35] <markvandenborre> Max.workpiece dimension:
[12:14:36] <markvandenborre> 750mm*450mm
[12:14:47] <markvandenborre> Work table dimension:
[12:14:47] <markvandenborre> 750mm*480mm*20mm
[12:15:41] <archivist> working travel limits work size
[12:15:55] <markvandenborre> exactly as I thought
[12:16:03] <markvandenborre> so it's _just_ too small for my purposes
[12:16:07] <archivist> unless you are just doing something in the middle
[12:16:17] <markvandenborre> no, I really need the edges
[12:16:25] <markvandenborre> pity, would have been a very good starting point
[12:17:29] <markvandenborre> especially since it comes with at least some linuxcnc support
[12:22:02] <markvandenborre> Loetmichel: you don't know about anything just a tiny bit bigger, do you?
[12:22:26] <markvandenborre> (it does 580, I need 660)
[12:23:30] <Loetmichel> how much do you want to spend?
[12:24:02] <Loetmichel> i have personally made good experiences with the AL series from www.team-haase.de
[12:24:15] <Loetmichel> but they are a bit more pricey.
[12:25:31] <Loetmichel> the AL1290 ( 1200mm by 900mm travel) will be around 6kEur in the "pro" variant
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[12:26:45] <Loetmichel> http://www.team-haase.de/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=4&Itemid=30
[12:28:07] <Loetmichel> and of course some serious amount for shipping a 200kg machine ;-)
[12:29:24] <markvandenborre> how easy are these to move?
[12:29:37] <markvandenborre> do they require a lot of disassembly?
[12:29:41] <Loetmichel> the whole machine?
[12:29:46] <markvandenborre> yup
[12:30:04] <Loetmichel> 4 mucular buddies and wide doors and everything is fine ;-)
[12:30:07] <Loetmichel> +s
[12:30:29] <markvandenborre> does it need a lot of calibration?
[12:30:35] <markvandenborre> (after moving)
[12:30:36] <Loetmichel> we had the AL1065 variant, which can be moved by 2 ppl
[12:30:42] <Loetmichel> no nothing
[12:30:59] <Loetmichel> just place it on a flat sturdy surface
[12:31:17] <Loetmichel> and i had build a vacuum table for it...
[12:31:58] <Loetmichel> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJmBF8HzWoc
[12:32:10] <Loetmichel> (thats me) ;-)
[12:32:58] <markvandenborre> heh, that's funny
[12:33:04] <markvandenborre> I had seen the video before
[12:34:31] <jthornton> what happens as you cut through the material does it get to a point where it will not hold the material?
[12:35:56] <awallin_> they had something like that for a new PRKF PCB-mill also
[12:36:35] <awallin_> how does that table work? you must drill/cut it when you make parts? and somehow it conducts air, but is stiff?
[12:37:44] <Loetmichel> jthornton: as long as the material doent get smaller than about 50mm by 50 mm it is no problem
[12:37:55] <Loetmichel> smaller parts tend to go flying
[12:38:35] <jthornton> so I guess it just depends on part design
[12:39:00] <markvandenborre> so without a vacuum pump, the piece needs to be clamped down somehow?
[12:40:13] <Loetmichel> the vaccum cleaner generates enough volume that the leakage air isnt a problem
[12:40:27] <Loetmichel> im my case
[12:40:35] <Loetmichel> markvandenborre: right
[12:40:46] <markvandenborre> sorry for asking the obvious questions
[12:41:22] <markvandenborre> when you usually cut a lot of pieces out of one sheet, this makes it extremely interesting to cut using a vacuum table then...
[12:41:27] <Loetmichel> i tend to use a "sacrificial plate" made of particle board and screw the workpiece into it on some edges. with spax(r) screws
[12:42:14] <Loetmichel> and make some "spurs" into the program, so the small pieces can be broken out afterwards
[12:42:49] <Loetmichel> let me see if i have a photo...
[12:44:19] <Loetmichel> ah, there: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=4921
[12:44:53] <Loetmichel> question answered?
[12:45:11] <Loetmichel> (click on the photo for big picture)
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[12:47:40] <jthornton> quad copter?
[12:47:45] <jthornton> nice work!
[12:48:36] <markvandenborre> are vacuum tables more or less universal or in some way tied to your machine?
[12:50:23] <markvandenborre> I mean, do they need to be made for a specific machine?
[12:50:31] <markvandenborre> sorry for all the newbie questions here
[12:50:56] <markvandenborre> I'm just trying to understand the big picture a bit before going off googling further
[12:51:14] <archivist> keep googling anyway
[12:51:24] <archivist> lots to see
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[12:53:35] <Loetmichel> jthornton: right, quadcopter
[12:53:49] <Loetmichel> oh... s/spurs/sprues
[12:54:28] <Loetmichel> markvandenborre: as long as the tables fit in the working area: non that i know of
[12:54:58] <Loetmichel> and can exert enough force to hold the workpiece in place against the milling forces
[12:55:47] <Loetmichel> so: a mill with a high speed small milling bit is easier to hold the work in place than a 200mm levelling head ;-)
[12:56:14] <markvandenborre> obviously
[12:56:19] <Loetmichel> s/200mm/one with a 200mm diameter
[12:56:25] <markvandenborre> but then again, you know my application
[12:56:32] <markvandenborre> -> 18mm ply
[12:56:36] <markvandenborre> birch ply
[12:56:52] <markvandenborre> so I guess that should be relatively straightforward
[12:57:17] <archivist> in some cases you cannot avoid clamping from above so pause the milling to reposition the clamps
[12:57:31] <Loetmichel> if you use a 20++krpm spinde and say a 3mm TC mill bit you will be ok with a vacuum table wit a normal vacuum cleaner for drive.
[12:58:21] <markvandenborre> I read about a lot of people using old milking vacuum pumps ; funny that
[12:58:24] <Loetmichel> 2 caveats: small pieces havent enough surface to stay in place and the vacuum should have an independend motor coooling or a valve for "surplus air"
[12:59:00] <Loetmichel> or it will overheat
[12:59:15] <archivist> cutter size also affects production speed
[13:02:13] <Loetmichel> markvandenborre: to give you a feeling: a 10cm by 10cm part will be pressed down with a force in excess of 30kgs with a normal vacuum cleaner (-0,3 bar below air pressure)... if you eceed that 30kg with the mill bit the part will shioft or go flying
[13:03:12] <archivist> stuff flying is fun
[13:05:02] <Loetmichel> archivist: more or less... i had to pry the tc mill bit shards out of my skin more than once... not so great...
[13:05:58] <archivist> the horizontal threw a 15mm aluminium plate that I thought was well clamped one day
[13:06:38] <markvandenborre> what about stuff like http://www.ebay.de/itm/Bausatz-CNC-Frasmaschine-3D-Frase-1100-x-720-x-300-mm-4-Achssteuerung-EMV-CE-/181047028510?pt=Industriemaschinen&hash=item2a273e6b1e
[13:06:43] <markvandenborre> are those things toys?
[13:07:09] <archivist> and I had an over arm saw throw some bench a hundred feet and spun the aluminium that have me a cut in my little finger
[13:07:19] <Loetmichel> markvandenborre: useable as a 3dprinter maybe, but not for milling
[13:07:25] <markvandenborre> k
[13:07:29] <markvandenborre> archivist: awww
[13:09:13] <archivist> that last cnc looks light weight, small cuts only
[13:09:39] <Loetmichel> archivist: thats very modest of you
[13:09:48] <Loetmichel> i would have used stronger words ;)
[13:09:54] <archivist> I hate round bar supports!
[13:10:21] <archivist> specially when unsupported in the middle
[13:10:49] <archivist> it can probably handle 3mm cutter
[13:13:46] <Loetmichel> archivist: in balsa maybe
[13:14:52] <Loetmichel> the unsupported rails on THIS lengh will bend down about 1mm in the middle only by the weight of the milling head
[13:15:24] <Loetmichel> so, at markvandenborre: that is a no-go for milling. use maschine with at LEAST supported rails
[13:28:38] <markvandenborre> I knew it wasn't sufficient, but I couldn't immediately see why, so thank you
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[13:58:09] <mrsun> hmm why use two motors for one axis ?
[13:58:21] <mrsun> as its steppers they will jerk to closest whole step each time you turn on the drivers ?
[13:58:36] <mrsun> so if its easier to move one way then the other one might jerk backwards and one forwards ?
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[13:58:44] <mrsun> putting one of the motors 1 full step off from the other
[14:01:03] <awallin_> I guess two motors can be better for a wide gantry - it would be difficult to drive it from the middle also
[14:01:11] <awallin_> the motors do need to be synced well
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[14:12:25] <r00t4rd3d> anyone got access to some curly maple?
[14:14:32] <r00t4rd3d> i need some damn curly wood
[14:15:02] <Loetmichel> awallin_: if you have 2 motors for more trque you still need a timing belt to synchonize them
[14:15:07] <Loetmichel> BTDT
[14:15:55] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=7086
[14:16:00] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=7080
[14:16:12] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=7068
[14:17:31] <awallin_> with good electronics I would guess you don't absolutely need a mechanical link between the joints
[14:18:38] <Loetmichel> other side: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=4403
[14:19:17] <Loetmichel> awallin_: the problem is what happens wehn the electronics are switched off?
[14:19:50] <Loetmichel> e.g. can someone turn one part of the y axis by hand/gravity?
[14:19:54] <archivist> special homing with two switches
[14:20:03] <Loetmichel> so that the gantry is angled
[14:20:28] <Loetmichel> tht would work, but wouldnt be good fir the gantry... (flexing)
[14:21:19] <andypugh> With two motors your gantry doesn't need to be as stiff. So it can be lighter.
[14:21:37] <Loetmichel> the machine on the photos is destroyed, because the buyer hat it runnung on one motor only (one driver had died) until the timing belt on the back had rippend and the moving side had ripped the gantry apart
[14:22:42] <andypugh> I think this one here has dual drive: http://www.deansmithandgrace.co.uk/icms_assets/files/Travelling_Gantry_Machine.pdf
[14:22:53] <Loetmichel> made me a bit angry because of the stupidity to run it for weeps without getting a new driver board
[14:23:05] <Loetmichel> or siomply call me to get it fixed
[14:23:14] <Loetmichel> weeks
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[14:24:18] <andypugh> The one I linked above is almost exactly the same design, with bolted-on linear guides. It is a little heavier, and bigger.
[14:30:40] <archivist> little!
[14:32:07] <Loetmichel> ... a little....
[14:32:12] <Loetmichel> :-)
[14:33:54] <archivist> just cataloguing some stuff here, Unimation VDU driver V2.8 april 1985 antique
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[14:39:00] <archivist> dont remember signing an nda when I got that listing
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[14:59:25] <mrsun> yeah but whats wrong with a single shaft going to the both ends for driving and having one motor driving that shaft? :)
[14:59:35] <mrsun> ofc, would be harder to do with screws
[14:59:49] <mrsun> then with chains, belts or whatever
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[15:23:10] <markvandenborre> a vacuum table looks like it's a cheap and easy addon for most any machine
[15:23:20] <markvandenborre> or is there a lot more that I need except stuff like
[15:23:42] <markvandenborre> http://www.m-powertools.com/products/big-mach/big-mach.htm
[15:23:43] <markvandenborre> ?
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[16:20:16] <IchGuckLive> hi all
[16:21:44] <jthornton> hmm, craigslist seems to be down
[16:23:35] <Tom_itx> signs of the end
[16:26:18] <pcw_home> maybe the Mayan calender was off a few days
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[16:30:33] <Loetmichel> markvandenborre: right
[16:31:14] <Loetmichel> my selfbuild vacuum tables use an other principle than the ones with holes and gaskets, though.
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[16:31:34] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=8211
[16:31:39] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=8214
[16:31:44] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=8217
[16:32:33] <Loetmichel> ... and on top a 5mm "MDF" (medium particle board) which will let air pass though it without the need of drilling holes.
[16:32:46] <Loetmichel> makes the building of a vacuum table much more simple
[16:33:48] <IchGuckLive> Loetmichel: where are the liniars of the ro uter from
[16:34:17] <Loetmichel> the what?
[16:34:29] <IchGuckLive> "die Führungen"
[16:34:49] <Loetmichel> thats a complete machine from www.team-haase.de
[16:34:55] <Loetmichel> AL1065
[16:35:01] <IchGuckLive> ok
[16:35:09] <Loetmichel> i think they make them theirself
[16:36:07] <Loetmichel> it 2 round steel bars in a support, and "wheels" with a v carve and 2 ball bearings in them running on the steel bars
[16:36:36] <Loetmichel> *it is
[16:36:50] <IchGuckLive> ok
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[16:59:53] <kwallace> cradek: I found "halcmd setp halui.joint.X.home 1" works without any UI fiddling. I need to find a method for limit override, but now I can move the machine without too much worry. Thanks.
[17:12:18] <markvandenborre> Loetmichel: the table on your photo looks like something fairly normal
[17:12:34] <markvandenborre> as in, could have been my living room table
[17:13:38] <markvandenborre> doesn't that create any problems?
[17:21:28] <Loetmichel> bit of wiggling, otherwise ok ;-)
[17:21:53] <Loetmichel> the AL1065 is more than enough rigid in itself so the table mustnt be
[17:23:40] <Loetmichel> on the opposite side: the chinese machine of my fist ebay link should be bolted down to a STURDY table because it is very "bendable" in itself
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[17:51:01] Cylly is now known as Loetmichel
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[18:09:46] <IchGuckLive> hi all B)
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[18:35:50] <markvandenborre> Loetmichel: https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-f-Rd-whwtFQ/T9hByQ9oURI/AAAAAAAAByw/4YqDYci4L-Q/s800/prototype.png -> widest component is top left: 657x500mm
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[18:37:34] <Loetmichel> hmm?
[18:37:46] <markvandenborre> would it make a lot of difference efficiency wise to produce these parts on a bigger size machine versus a smaller one?
[18:38:06] <Loetmichel> only in terms of wasted material
[18:38:21] <markvandenborre> but the process itself would be more or less equally fast or slow?
[18:38:26] <Loetmichel> because of the better nesting in big sheets
[18:39:08] <Loetmichel> right, not calculated for the change of material more often, but that should be fairly quick with a vacuum table
[18:39:23] <markvandenborre> that was my biggest worry as a newbie
[18:40:02] <markvandenborre> how much "waste" space should I leave around the biggest object?
[18:40:27] <markvandenborre> or is it feasible to use it up until the edge?
[18:40:53] * markvandenborre has been googling for answers to this, but it's a rather hard question to search for
[18:41:16] <IchGuckLive> markvandenborre: PCB
[18:41:29] <archivist> that depends on the quality of your sheet supplier and the delivery
[18:41:41] <Loetmichel> you can use tha material to the edge
[18:41:50] <markvandenborre> IchGuckLive: ?
[18:41:57] <markvandenborre> cool
[18:41:59] <IchGuckLive> agrees with loet
[18:42:15] <IchGuckLive> to the edge on vaacuun grabbing
[18:42:37] <Loetmichel> if the edges are saw cut and noth the original pressed stuff where the sheets are not overlapping and gthe glue is pressed out
[18:43:07] <markvandenborre> hah, that was even obvious to _me_
[18:43:30] <Loetmichel> hrhr
[18:44:15] <IchGuckLive> i mill most 1mm ground around the sheet europlate
[18:45:16] <Loetmichel> let me see, i have a "workday" in timelapse somewhere of my old company...
[18:45:29] <markvandenborre> oh, that would be cool!
[18:46:14] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/hajo/09_01_09.avi
[18:46:28] <Loetmichel> only cutting sheets for selling, though
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[18:54:42] <markvandenborre> hm, so it seems you are around the table most of the time when it is routing
[18:55:20] <Loetmichel> no, just had the cam dwon to my workplace for half of the time ;-)
[18:56:52] <markvandenborre> ;)
[18:57:03] <markvandenborre> how noisy is this machine?
[18:57:30] <markvandenborre> I don't see a lot of that mentioned in the specs
[18:57:44] <markvandenborre> I suppose it's somewhat tolerable since you are working in the same room
[18:58:01] <Loetmichel> this machine was quite noisy wht the kress. the Isel 3p spindle was MUCH more quiet because of the fan being powerd by 230V, not by the spindle shaft
[18:58:39] <Loetmichel> wiht the kres i had ear plugs in all day
[18:58:42] <Loetmichel> kress
[18:59:03] <Spida> krass.
[18:59:15] <Spida> :-)
[18:59:23] <Loetmichel> Spida: no, kress
[18:59:32] <IchGuckLive> markvandenborre: do you expect crashes
[18:59:42] <markvandenborre> IchGuckLive: ?
[18:59:44] <Spida> Loetmichel: I meant "krasse geraeuschentwicklung"
[19:00:02] <markvandenborre> why would I expect crashes?
[19:00:05] <Loetmichel> as in Kress 9660E http://www.schleppmesser.de/html/cnc_frasmaschine_zubehor_kress.html
[19:00:09] <IchGuckLive> markvandenborre: i woudt use one of the new VDF spindels for 250Euros
[19:00:27] <Loetmichel> IchGuckLive: me too
[19:00:45] <IchGuckLive> i got so good experiance of this
[19:01:07] <markvandenborre> I hadn't looked at spindles yet
[19:01:12] <IchGuckLive> Loetmichel: schleppmesser gehts da nicht um fräsen sondern schriftcuttr
[19:01:19] <Loetmichel> but as you look on the date: 2009 there wasnt chinese VFD spindles for small money on ebay
[19:01:37] <IchGuckLive> markvandenborre: http://www.ebay.de/itm/WATER-COOLED-SPINDLE-MOTOR-2-2KW-INVERTER-VFD-2-2KW-VARIABLE-FREQUENCY-DRIVE-q4-/390373906810?pt=UK_BOI_Industrial_Automation_Control_ET&hash=item5ae419197a
[19:01:42] <Loetmichel> IchGuckLive: look in the link
[19:02:12] <markvandenborre> in fact, I had guessed that the manufacturer would recommend one
[19:02:31] <markvandenborre> and since I'm looking at team haase right now, I guess they would recommend Kress...
[19:03:18] <Loetmichel> markvandenborre: the kress spindle is useable, cheap but nothing for continuous work. at first you have to wear ear plugs because of the whine, second the bnearings are dead after about a year of 5 days/8hrs use.
[19:03:31] <IchGuckLive> but the spindel you can control on M3 and S
[19:03:39] <Loetmichel> a chinese VFD spindle watercooled is not audible... the steppers are louder...
[19:03:39] <IchGuckLive> the Kresss is only on off
[19:03:48] <markvandenborre> I'm soaking up this knowledge!
[19:03:56] <Loetmichel> IchGuckLive: no, the kress has a RPM control
[19:04:07] <IchGuckLive> by hand
[19:04:11] <IchGuckLive> B)
[19:04:11] <Loetmichel> right
[19:04:21] <IchGuckLive> 8k-26k
[19:04:22] <Loetmichel> but real rpm, no power control
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[19:04:38] <markvandenborre> so if it's so quiet, does that mean I would be able to use this even in an office building?
[19:04:44] <Loetmichel> but as i said: its excruating LOUD
[19:04:58] <IchGuckLive> markvandenborre: shure
[19:05:13] <Loetmichel> markvandenborre: the chinese watercooled spindles: yes
[19:05:15] <Loetmichel> moment
[19:05:15] <markvandenborre> without generating too much noise complaints from neighbours?
[19:05:21] <markvandenborre> wow, that would be great!
[19:05:23] <IchGuckLive> with a good Driver for the steppers you are at 40DB
[19:05:36] <Spida> markvandenborre: depends on what other stuff you will be running. vaccum table? dust removal?
[19:05:47] <IchGuckLive> at 5000mm/min
[19:05:49] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/pce/HFspindel_fertig.avi
[19:06:21] <IchGuckLive> Loetmichel: can you make a side on howto build
[19:06:32] <Loetmichel> that was 300Hz a.k.a 20krpm
[19:07:03] <Loetmichel> and 2mm deep in plastics with a 6mm mill bit
[19:07:21] <markvandenborre> cool!
[19:07:44] <markvandenborre> Spida: I guess both of them would be somewhat necessary if I want clean cuts...
[19:07:50] <markvandenborre> that might make a lot more noise...
[19:07:53] <Loetmichel> the vaccum cleaner will be MUCH louder
[19:08:20] <markvandenborre> should I expect something like the volume of a ... vacuum cleaner?
[19:08:29] <Loetmichel> dust removal not necessarily
[19:08:50] <Loetmichel> you can do that FTER you have finsied the cutting
[19:08:54] <Loetmichel> +A
[19:08:57] <markvandenborre> k
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[19:09:23] <IchGuckLive> markvandenborre: what router you got
[19:09:40] <markvandenborre> IchGuckLive: I've been looking around all day
[19:09:45] <markvandenborre> and asking questions here off and on
[19:09:56] <IchGuckLive> ok ready made or homemade
[19:09:56] <markvandenborre> I'm working on a free hardware project
[19:10:40] <markvandenborre> ready made, currently looking more closely at team Haase AL1065, AL1290, CUT2500L
[19:10:53] <IchGuckLive> what country are you from
[19:10:59] <markvandenborre> Belgium/Latvia
[19:11:29] <IchGuckLive> http://www.ebay.de/itm/CNC-Wood-Engraving-Machine-Engraver-Cutter-Router-1312-50-x47-2-2KW-spindle-/120833940263?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c22439b27
[19:11:32] <markvandenborre> (I live in .be, have a tiny office in .lv)
[19:11:39] <IchGuckLive> this will be your best friend
[19:11:54] <IchGuckLive> all you need is there
[19:12:21] <IchGuckLive> plugin your pc and you are done
[19:12:33] <Loetmichel> the cut2500l has very few travel in z. so it is more or less only for sheet material
[19:12:40] <Loetmichel> wont recoomend that
[19:13:09] <archivist> and not usable with linuxcnc
[19:13:35] <Loetmichel> archivist: the team haase machines? they are
[19:13:38] <Loetmichel> BTDT
[19:13:57] <markvandenborre> BTDT?
[19:14:00] <archivist> that last thing usb
[19:14:05] <Loetmichel> been there, done thtat
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[19:14:35] <markvandenborre> I have only sheet material I need to process actually
[19:14:55] <markvandenborre> so maybe that is the most cost effective?
[19:16:15] <Loetmichel> markvandenborre: your decision, but i have noiced that IF a cnc mill is in the house the uses get up exponetially
[19:16:30] <markvandenborre> :-)
[19:16:30] <Loetmichel> and you NEVER have enough travel, especially in Z ;-)
[19:16:40] <markvandenborre> oh, you're probably right
[19:16:47] <markvandenborre> I can already see other uses
[19:16:59] <markvandenborre> but I really try to keep focused on the job at hand
[19:17:16] <markvandenborre> what's your opinion on the machine that IchGuckLive just showed?
[19:17:21] <Loetmichel> hmmm
[19:17:40] <markvandenborre> IchGuckLive: you have experience with that one?
[19:17:54] <Loetmichel> looks nice but i cant beliefe that it would be sold fot THAT price if tis really good
[19:17:57] <IchGuckLive> yes it is good for the stuff most of us use
[19:18:00] <Loetmichel> -f+v
[19:18:16] <IchGuckLive> there are leadshines in
[19:18:39] <IchGuckLive> i woudt recomend more power 48V
[19:19:20] <IchGuckLive> you can also go on 8Nm steppers with just replace the stepper
[19:19:43] <archivist> IchGuckLive, did you see that that thing has a usb connection, so he would need to rework the control
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[19:20:15] <markvandenborre> archivist: that's not something I would like to do
[19:20:22] <IchGuckLive> there is also a Parport version
[19:20:31] <markvandenborre> cool
[19:20:49] <IchGuckLive> just mail him for more info
[19:21:10] <IchGuckLive> ok im off by till tomorow
[19:21:11] <markvandenborre> I probably should
[19:21:16] <markvandenborre> thx for the hints
[19:21:22] <IchGuckLive> NP
[19:21:31] <IchGuckLive> latvia is also free shipment
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[19:28:10] <markvandenborre> I guess the thing is probably a bit light
[19:32:00] <markvandenborre> it does weigh >400kg...
[19:33:07] <Loetmichel> sounds more or less OK
[19:33:24] <Loetmichel> not a russian iron lump but heavy enough
[19:34:17] <markvandenborre> then again, my little office is on the 4th floor, without an elevator...
[19:34:45] <markvandenborre> getting the haase machine up there would be a bit of a challenge
[19:35:01] <markvandenborre> but getting this up there... sheer madness, if at all possible ;)
[19:35:04] <syyl> haas has an office mill ;)
[19:35:43] <markvandenborre> I understand that you are joking. I would not ever touch haas machines
[19:35:50] <markvandenborre> haase ok, but haas?
[19:36:36] <syyl> haas has a pretty good reputation
[19:36:52] <markvandenborre> except for when it comes to anti-features
[19:37:07] <markvandenborre> like locking a machine after x hours of use
[19:37:12] <archivist> my 5 axis mill climbed the stairs in bits
[19:37:44] <markvandenborre> might be possible with that one too... don't know
[19:37:56] <syyl> but they let you try out all software features for 200hours, even if you didnt buy them
[19:39:32] <markvandenborre> syyl: I am a free software person, so not particularly interested in that
[19:41:19] <markvandenborre> I want control over my machine, preferably using debian
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[19:42:28] <frysteev> can use multiple mesa card in the same system?
[19:43:00] <markvandenborre> I learned to deal with the limitations of openscad and freecad in order to avoid other (much more advanced) proprietary systems
[19:43:53] <markvandenborre> frysteev: I've never experimented with that, but a friend has set up a multiseat desktop system (8 3d accellerated screens on one machine)
[19:43:59] <markvandenborre> so I guess it should be possible
[19:45:42] <frysteev> hmm
[19:46:41] <tom3p> is that Kress a universal motor ( runs ac or dc )? then a brushed dc servo could control its speed
[19:47:33] <pcw_home> frysteev: yes
[19:52:20] <frysteev> pcw_home: curious about running a pair of 7143's, one on each prrellel port, wasnt sure if the hostmot3 stuff would allow that
[19:52:58] <frysteev> and anyone in here actually using modbus with emc for ancillery i/o?
[19:53:47] <Loetmichel> tom3p: the kress have already a rpm coltrol inside
[19:54:22] <Loetmichel> even with a magnet on the shaft and an idnuctor int he electrnocs for stabilisation
[19:54:27] <Loetmichel> electronics
[19:55:01] <frysteev> and since modbus is supported, f
[19:55:18] <frysteev> does that mean regular serial can be used in emc2?
[19:59:12] <pcw_home> Yes you can run 2 7I43's
[19:59:13] <pcw_home> regular serial (or any other I/O) is usable just not for real time
[19:59:58] <pcw_home> Ive seen a number of people on the forum using modbus/modbus-tcpip
[20:00:04] <frysteev> i want to use a 7143 for all real time, but i got like 96 misc i/o that i dont need real time like coolant temp and such
[20:00:31] <frysteev> my motor drives wil do modbus, but i cant imagine being able to drive them real time via that
[20:04:50] <pcw_home> No but its OK for Spindle speed
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[20:14:09] <frysteev> cool
[20:14:28] <frysteev> im happy now,
[20:14:46] <frysteev> dont need to drop a ton on discrete i/o
[20:20:28] <tom3p> ha, searching for the kress specs lead me to a nice lo profile vise design http://www.cnc-plus.de/Spanntechnik/Klemmtechnik/Mini-Maschinenschraubstock--zentrisch-spannend------1018.html
[20:22:20] <tom3p> even self centering
[20:24:55] <Loetmichel> hrhr
[20:25:23] <Loetmichel> yeah, tahts a nice design, but depends on a rigid table
[20:25:36] <Loetmichel> if the table is too thin the vise will bend it
[20:26:30] <tom3p> mine is only 1cm alum, but should be ok for small work in alum
[20:30:16] <tom3p> back to work http://imagebin.org/240464
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[20:34:08] <pcw_home> Looks nice! What about a different color dot for different HAL types?
[20:34:26] <pcw_home> bit/s32/u32/float
[20:36:34] <tom3p> haha no hal types really, only floats. Blender sez it has bit/int/float/string but its really only floats or sets of floats ( like RGBA or Vector)
[20:37:07] <tom3p> but it doesnt mater to me, its just a picture ( tho the underlying python looks like it would 'run' thru the connections )
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[20:37:58] <tom3p> its just meant to help explain , not to reproduce or simulate hal files
[20:38:02] <pcw_home> Oh ok this is visual output prograng, not for input
[20:38:09] <pcw_home> program
[20:38:22] <tom3p> just visual diagram not even programmimg
[20:39:16] <tom3p> to be more it requires extracting this code from the main body, THEN types and other stuff could occur
[20:40:14] <tom3p> in the beginning, these attempts always stumble into... 'well i need a boatload of widgets built before i can test more ' period
[20:41:11] <tom3p> right now fiddling with axis. stepgen. and halui.
[20:42:33] <pcw_home> Be nice if the comp build script would make the widget
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[20:44:07] <tom3p> hmm, maybe, they're pretty lame
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[20:46:59] <tom3p> yeah i suppose so, but the automation waits till i get 1 working hal diagram http://pastebin.com/dH9nPpmk
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[20:54:09] <pcw_home> Seems like it would be nice for the manuals as well
[20:55:53] <tom3p> yeh visual examples is what its about ( just learned man runs thru pager which is really 'less' BUT less is skipped if redirected , cool )
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[21:33:11] <tom3p> theres a nice paradigm in the pynodes, an unwired input is a parameter, it still has value but comes from an editable field instead of a net
[21:33:43] <tom3p> as soon as you wire it, the field disappears
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[21:49:47] <pcw_home> Thats nice, if the icon was made from the comp an perhaps an
[21:49:49] <pcw_home> unwired input could be set to the default value of the pin/parameter
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[22:07:13] <tom3p> yeh thats what happens, it has a default, and that appears is considered in output, wired it up and the field and value just disappear, output respects the wiring instead
[22:07:42] <tom3p> i think i have axis/motion factored into manageable sub-components
[22:08:23] <tom3p> oh an dthis is way offtopic but so cool i should share ww.kitchenbudapest.hu/hu/research/projects-2007-2010/
[22:08:40] <tom3p> this morning i got my kinect to animate one of the on screen puppets
[22:09:17] <tom3p> see page 164-165 of that 'magazine' at the url
[22:12:45] <tom3p> prepend 1 mo w to url :P
[22:15:29] <pcw_home> Thats interesting. Idea reminds me a little of animusic
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[22:21:58] <Jymmm> Are skeleton key type/style locks still predominate in the UK?
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[22:38:16] <tom3p> pcw_home, factoreded out part of axis/motion and show how unwired pins act like params http://imagebin.org/240478
[22:40:35] <mrsun> hmm using some kind of "cad" program to program hal ? :)
[22:41:37] <tom3p> just thoughts
[22:43:18] <pcw_home> Thats neat
[22:45:21] <pcw_home> If for no other reason than to show unconnected pin defaults
[22:50:55] <tom3p> well merry christmas to all, and many thx to all the devs and the supprt crew here on the irc ( library is closed!)
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[23:25:41] <r00t4rd3d> i fucking hate xmas
[23:26:08] <r00t4rd3d> religion shoved down my throat every corner i turn
[23:26:18] <r00t4rd3d> Merry Christmas!
[23:26:20] <r00t4rd3d> FUCK YOU!
[23:27:01] <pcw_home> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUKku3MhCPs
[23:28:26] -!- mk0 has quit [Quit: Leaving]
[23:30:59] <r00t4rd3d> http://www.tgdaily.com/hardware-features/68281-giada-debuts-arm-powered-desktop-pcs
[23:31:17] <r00t4rd3d> Android desktop
[23:32:33] * jthornton hands r00t4rd3d a number 5
[23:44:10] <jdh> r00t: feliz navidad
[23:44:41] <jdh> and really... there's no religion in xmas
[23:55:26] <Valen> r00t4rd3d: xmas is about santa
[23:55:42] <Valen> I'm officially agnostic, but I damn sure believe in santa ;->