#linuxcnc | Logs for 2012-12-19

[00:00:05] <JT-Shop> I guess I should go ahead and finish cutting the pivot arms for the unjammers
[00:01:58] <tjb1> Pictures
[00:02:13] <tjb1> JT-Shop didn't understand something?
[00:02:15] * tjb1 writes this down
[00:04:52] <tjb1> I want to see the modifications
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[00:07:09] <JT-Shop> photos at 10...
[00:07:35] <JT-Shop> I replaced the X slide top plate with a pair of rollers
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[00:10:04] <tjb1> at 10?
[00:11:17] <archivist> past 12 here
[00:11:38] <tjb1> 7 here
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[01:16:34] <andypugh> I think I figured out a way to one-shot oil my ballnut.
[01:17:45] <andypugh> Oil up the casting to the centre of the split inner race of the bearing, then along the bearing through a removed oil-seal, then retained by a new shaft seal, and then through drillings in the rotating housing into the oil hole.
[01:17:54] <andypugh> What could possibly go wrong?
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[01:26:43] <tjb1> Fly presses are interesting
[01:30:27] <andypugh> Why would you want to press flies?
[01:30:48] <Tom_itx> write up an eco and submit it for approval andypugh
[01:32:20] <Tom_itx> what are you gonna use to shoot the oil?
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[01:38:15] <andypugh> Some undisclosed form of central one-shot oiler
[01:39:53] <Tom_itx> so the ballnut is stationary?
[01:42:00] <andypugh> No. Rotating nut.
[01:42:36] <andypugh> Henze the byzantine oil routing I despcribed above.
[01:42:47] <toastydeath> fly presses are super useful
[01:42:51] <toastydeath> i wish they were still common
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[02:13:13] <andypugh> toastydeath: One of the most useful tools I ever had access to was a lever press with losts of tooling.
[02:13:37] <andypugh> Cut-outs for all the common connectors, louvre cutter, corner notcher..
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[03:05:09] <tjb1> JT-Shop: You are late.
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[03:14:19] <s1dev> any thoughts on how expensive building a CNC plasma cutter for cutting aluminum (probably less than 1/2" thick) with a 4'x4' build area would be?
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[03:16:20] <tjb1> 3k or less.
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[03:16:50] <tjb1> My table is 4x8, around $3300
[03:16:54] <tjb1> not including the plasma cutter
[03:19:05] <s1dev> what was most of that cost?
[03:19:25] <tjb1> 1300 in steel, 1300 in electronics and carriages
[03:19:32] <tjb1> rest in other little stuff
[03:20:05] <s1dev> where can I find pictures of what the bed might look like
[03:22:24] <tjb1> http://linuxcnc.org/index.php/english/forum/30-cnc-machines/25901-diy-cnc-plasma-table-lots-of-pictures
[03:22:27] <tjb1> Thats my table
[03:22:34] <s1dev> thanks
[03:22:36] <tjb1> JT-Shop should be putting some pictures of his on soon
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[03:23:09] <tjb1> The bottom ones arent in order and there might be some newer ones on cnczone
[03:26:32] <s1dev> thanks for the help
[03:27:10] <tjb1> Yeppers
[03:28:29] <RyanS> This is hilarious.. For what is essentially a single axis with two actuators on a stand: http://www.kaiser-fototechnik.de/en/news/produkte/1_1_rsp2motion.asp have a guess how many $$ (without googling)?
[03:29:01] <tjb1> 675?
[03:29:28] <RyanS> motorized .. ^
[03:29:33] <tjb1> After further reading I would like to change that
[03:29:44] <tjb1> 3875?
[03:30:00] <RyanS> ^ $17,000
[03:30:16] <RyanS> They have to be joking
[03:30:19] <tjb1> What does it even do?
[03:30:26] <tjb1> Just for taking pictures?
[03:31:12] <RyanS> It just moves the camera up and down the column and also the table moves and is motorised
[03:32:21] <RyanS> You can get a professional to weld the frame, use servos & ballscrews for $1500 using quality components
[03:32:23] <tjb1> Can anyone estimate the cost for just the water cutting parts? http://www.cnczone.com/forums/burntables/168486-cnc_waterjet_tables_burntables.html
[03:32:32] <s1dev> people pay much more money than they should just because something is targeted specifically for that use
[03:32:58] <s1dev> some people just don't have the mentality that you can almost always build it cheaper than you can buy it
[03:33:57] <RyanS> A lot of things these days you can buy a cheaper than build.. but this is far beyond the cost of even having it professionally custom fabricated
[03:34:19] <s1dev> With water jets and plasma cutters, do you eventually end up cutting through the steel holding up the work piece?
[03:34:34] <tjb1> Oh wow, 1k just for the head...
[03:34:47] <tjb1> s1dev: thats what the slats are for, they are consumable
[03:35:15] <tjb1> s1dev: http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/550064_4571154312879_2086822260_n.jpg
[03:35:41] <s1dev> how much do each of those slats cost?
[03:37:00] <RyanS> hmm do those waterjet cutters need an external compressor installed at a facility to generate enough pressure? or it's usually part of the machine?
[03:37:11] <tjb1> RyanS: http://www.accustream.com/products/waterjet-machines/a-series/a-6015.html
[03:37:24] <tjb1> s1dev: Very cheap, I paid $96 for all of them
[03:37:39] <tjb1> I think that comes out to about $6 each?
[03:38:13] <RyanS> 15hp.. hmm I was expecting like a lot more
[03:38:22] <tjb1> they have 30
[03:38:29] <tjb1> and another one goes much higher, thats just the one I was looking at
[03:38:59] <tjb1> They have a 150hp model
[03:39:00] <tjb1> http://www.accustream.com/waterjet-cutting-machines.html
[03:39:05] <RyanS> Essentially it's just a really sophisticated high pressure washer :)
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[03:39:41] <s1dev> was it scrap? I can't find prices like that
[03:40:16] <s1dev> RyanS: you can even cut holes in your car while trying to clean it!
[03:40:16] <tjb1> s1dev: Its 1/8 x1.5" HRS
[03:40:46] <RyanS> Headline "Man attempts to wash car with water jet cutter, cuts car in half"
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[03:41:32] <s1dev> wow, that is cheap
[03:41:34] <s1dev> thanks
[03:41:40] <tjb1> s1dev: where do you buy your steel? I buy from a supplier that gets it direct from the mill
[03:41:53] <s1dev> Grainger or online metals
[03:41:57] <tjb1> dont play with the guys in the middle
[03:42:02] <tjb1> and those are horrible places
[03:42:12] <tjb1> You need to find a local supplier
[03:45:37] <s1dev> would the yellow pages be a start?
[03:46:23] <tjb1> Maybe
[03:46:48] <tjb1> Dont live in PA do you?
[03:47:57] <s1dev> Texas :D
[03:49:10] <s1dev> thanks for the help, I'll start looking for a local supplier
[03:49:47] <tjb1> Well with all the gas well down there, you should be exploding with steel suppliers
[03:50:22] <tjb1> What is grainger and onlinemetals price per inch for 1/8x1.5"?
[03:54:07] <s1dev> onlinemetals: $0.13/in, Grainger's website is generating 404s all over the place
[03:54:35] <s1dev> at first Grainger looks really expensive until you actually look at the dimensions
[03:55:21] <RyanS> so I want to design a camera stand, prob 600-800mm tall column (Z axis), with motorized travel. I was thinking 80/20 extrusion, 2 round steel linear bearings... (Probably needs to support no more than 5kg). What do you think for the transmission. acme leadscrews & NEMA 17 (?) steppers?
[03:55:46] <tjb1> My local is $.05 per inch
[03:56:12] <tjb1> RyanS: T-slots.com is probably cheaper
[03:59:24] <tjb1> RyanS: are you a student?
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[04:01:04] <RyanS> Not in the area you might guess :)
[04:01:45] <RyanS> but yes
[04:04:02] <tjb1> Well t-slots has free shipping for students
[04:04:19] <RyanS> International shipping? :)
[04:06:23] <RyanS> There are some ebay sellers, but I can't be bothered creating the CAD models
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[04:06:40] <tjb1> Maybe
[04:07:07] <tjb1> Mexico or Canada?
[04:08:10] <RyanS> Australia lol
[04:08:22] <tjb1> Doubt it
[04:09:12] <RyanS> hmm http://stores.ebay.com.au/CNC-AND-CUPCAKE-WORLD/CNC-Aluminium-T-slot-frame-/_i.html?_fsub=369405619&_sid=657086089&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322 I think this is probably overpriced but they have some cheap linear bearings
[04:10:15] <RyanS> hell I could probably get away with metric threaded rod for the leadscrews ..
[04:18:34] <tjb1> Is it hard to find left hand threads? :P
[04:19:28] <RyanS> Doesn't that only apply to toilet flush direction ?
[04:26:37] <tjb1> Dunno, you're the one in Australia
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[04:53:51] <RyanS> I've never checked a northern hemisphere toilet so I have no grounds for a comparison
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[05:01:43] <RyanS> Do I give a toss about backlash if I simply want to position something without much concern for repeatability or accuracy (1-2mm here or there I'm sure won't make a lot of difference for this application)?
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[05:06:13] <tjb1> http://imgur.com/gallery/4Mmr7
[05:06:28] <tjb1> Anti-backlash nuts arent expensive
[05:08:06] <RyanS> but do they add terribly much friction ? (ie is this going to require larger stepper motors)
[05:08:41] <RyanS> btw that looks disgusting
[05:08:44] <tjb1> mine is pretty tight but I dont know what it would feel like with just a nut
[05:08:48] <tjb1> its a brownie!
[05:16:11] <RyanS> In terms of a Z axis 5kg load is pretty small? (ie the 'spindle' is 5kg)
[05:17:38] <tjb1> My entire Z is something like 25-30lbs
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[05:20:12] <RyanS> ok 13kg.. How much torque has the stepper got?
[05:21:27] <tjb1> http://www.cncrouterparts.com/320-oz-in-28-mh-nema-23-stepper-motor-38-shaft-p-188.html?osCsid=1e61eb3dac758d1fefd20e0e5a4c3e3d
[05:21:32] <tjb1> 1/2-10 acme
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[05:28:50] <RyanS> am I pushing my luck with 70 oz-in for 5kg (11lbs) .. hmm local supplier has NEMA 23 1550z-in. That's probably in the ballpark?
[05:32:30] <tjb1> I have no idea, I did no math :)
[05:33:32] <RyanS> you got a kit?
[05:35:08] <tjb1> No I just copied about every design on cnczone
[05:36:21] <RyanS> yeah I did that with my still :)
[05:40:08] <tjb1> I got an email from crucial… - "Dear Tyler <(>,<)>" is that a face?
[05:44:18] <toastyde1th> yes
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[07:49:08] <Loetmichel> mornin#
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[07:52:16] <Loetmichel> hrhr, co-worker has got me a present yesterday... http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=13817 :-)
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[08:32:00] <DJ9DJ> moin
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[09:31:13] <r00t4rd3d> they gave you a cup of tea?
[09:58:42] <Loetmichel> the cup
[09:58:50] <Loetmichel> note the size
[09:59:16] <Loetmichel> and the writing... "i am [forbidden] good"
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[13:45:33] <archivist> retrofit cnc drill/mill fleabay 140898536372
[13:48:25] <TekniQue> I like the toolchanger
[13:50:25] <jdh> turret mill?
[13:51:26] <archivist> meddings was mainly a drilling machine company
[13:51:45] <archivist> never seen that thing till today
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[14:04:29] <skunkworks> that reminds me of the k&t eb - only in-side-out
[14:11:04] <archivist> emco did something too http://www.hellopro.co.uk/EMCO_Groupe_Emco_Maier-1620-noprofil-1001212-6328-0-1-1-fr-societe.html
[14:12:33] <skunkworks> ok - maybe a bit early to make connections like that.. http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-history/k-t-milwaukeematic-mill-113966/#post424670
[14:13:01] <skunkworks> but you kinda see it
[14:13:20] <skunkworks> be cool to have one of those in the corner of the garage..
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[14:14:31] <archivist> but that is a separate changer/caddy for the tools :)
[14:19:21] <skunkworks> I know I know
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[14:19:48] <jthornton> http://imagebin.org/239944
[14:19:53] <skunkworks> there where a couple for sale on ebay a few years ago - but they looked rough
[14:20:05] <skunkworks> Yay!
[14:20:10] <skunkworks> What was the issue?
[14:20:12] <jthornton> no errors
[14:21:18] <jthornton> I did not have the experience necessary to code it
[14:21:44] <jthornton> but I have it now :)
[14:21:47] <skunkworks> A little help from your friends>
[14:21:49] <skunkworks> ?
[14:22:13] <jthornton> a lot of help from a new friend
[14:22:33] <jthornton> I never would have figured it out by guessing
[14:23:47] <skunkworks> cool
[14:25:08] <jthornton> check the user photo http://linuxcnc.org/index.php/english/forum/30-cnc-machines/25963-noob-starting-out
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[14:30:48] <archivist> a lot of the mechanical work is done there, just add a couple of lead screws and some motors and drives
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[14:55:59] <skunkworks> everyone needs a car lift in the shop... right?
[14:56:00] <skunkworks> http://electronicsam.com/images/KandT/shop3.JPG
[14:57:25] <skunkworks> a few stitched together..
[14:57:46] <skunkworks> http://electronicsam.com/images/KandT/shop.JPG
[14:57:51] <archivist> how did you clear that much space!
[14:58:06] <skunkworks> Dad has been working very hard at that...
[14:58:35] <skunkworks> actually - that was where the 2nd k&t was going to go - so it was just a dirt pit. now it is a nice flat floor :)
[14:58:36] <archivist> what is outside in the rain
[14:59:16] <skunkworks> suprisingly nothing ;)
[15:00:11] <skunkworks> 4ish yards of concrete poured a couple of weeks ago
[15:01:46] <skunkworks> he actually has a trough to put the cables and hydraulics below floor level - to get rid of the speed bump. But he has to get cables and re-locate some pullys
[15:04:10] <skunkworks> if you look strait back between the car lift uprights - you can see the y axis assembly for the second k&t. We are slowly disassembling it.
[15:04:19] <skunkworks> on the stitched photo
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[15:05:08] <skunkworks> (that area back there is about 4ft lower than the main floor)
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[15:19:59] <alex_joni> skunkworks: looking good
[15:21:58] <jdh> how high is the ceiling?
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[15:27:58] <skunkworks> 12ft
[15:30:52] <jdh> I could have used that this w/e.
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[16:26:49] <L84Supper> is it really that hard to label active low signals with a line over the text or a / in front of it ?
[16:27:12] <L84Supper> or maybe a - in front
[16:29:52] <L84Supper> I've recently come across stepper where they don't seem to understand the difference between active HIGH or LOW in the data sheets, connection diagrams, connectors or on the silk screens
[16:30:12] <L84Supper> stepper/stepper driver
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[16:31:10] <archivist> or just too lazy
[16:31:15] <L84Supper> I'm now surprised that they get Power and GND right
[16:31:41] <pcw_home> whats your problem man? you give it a pulse and it steps...
[16:32:10] <L84Supper> sure, any pulse will do
[16:32:55] <archivist> specially those induced from the vfd on the spindle
[16:37:05] <L84Supper> those are just helper pulses
[16:38:05] <L84Supper> or a secondary psychic/phantom servo loop
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[17:23:30] <Loetmichel> re @ home
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[17:27:51] <r00t4rd3d> http://www.indiegogo.com/robotdragonfly
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[17:43:15] <L84Supper> look another terrorist tool!
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[17:48:54] <IchGuckLive> hi all B)
[17:50:36] <alex4nder> r00t4rd3d: that looks awesome
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[19:05:28] <IchGuckLive> by for today B)
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[19:10:55] <andypugh> Result! I just found about £200 of high-density modelboard in the skip at work.
[19:11:37] <archivist> anything useful from a skip is a result
[19:12:25] <andypugh> Well, I have been trying to work out where to buy some from, because I have a pattern to make. So it's a real result.
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[21:13:49] <Nick001-Shop> ssi - you around?
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[21:24:21] <tjb1> JT-Shop: !
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[21:40:23] <_ilias> hi all
[21:41:14] <andypugh> Hi
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[21:41:29] <_ilias> I have a XYZ milling machine, but on the z axis there are 4 spindles independently activated by electrovalves
[21:41:41] <andypugh> OK, sounds like fun
[21:42:02] <andypugh> Do they all cut at the same time?
[21:42:04] <_ilias> therefor you can either use one or all four of them for many copies of the same pattern
[21:42:52] <p0st4L> http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/3-axis-CNC-controller-kit-3pcs-NEMA23-425-oz-in-Dual-shaft-stepper-motor-256-microstep/704350_385804768.html
[21:42:53] <andypugh> OK, so it's for making several parts, not for using several tools?
[21:42:54] <p0st4L> any input?
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[21:43:09] <_ilias> yes
[21:43:38] <andypugh> p0st4L: Those very big steppers can be a bit slow.
[21:44:00] <p0st4L> it's for a V90 Fireball CNC
[21:44:14] <p0st4L> https://probotix.com/FireBall_v90_cnc_router_kit/
[21:44:32] <andypugh> Depending on gearing they might not out-perform smaller ones. You need to compare the speed/torque curves a bit carefully.
[21:44:52] <_ilias> but when I want to mill a single pattern longer than the workspace of one spindle head, then this spindle head must be lifted and another must descend, or something more complex than that
[21:44:54] <tjb1> p0st4L: Noo!
[21:44:56] <tjb1> Bad.
[21:45:07] <p0st4L> ohai
[21:45:09] <_ilias> any ideas on how can i do this?
[21:45:20] <p0st4L> sgt sarcasm, right?
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[21:45:24] <tjb1> Yes
[21:45:34] <p0st4L> well, help a nigga out.
[21:45:38] <p0st4L> wifey got me the cnc for xmas
[21:45:42] <p0st4L> i need a motor kit fori t
[21:45:48] <tjb1> Should of built your own :P
[21:45:51] <p0st4L> nah
[21:45:52] <_ilias> is this procedure called gang-milling?
[21:45:56] <p0st4L> i'm sure i will later in life
[21:46:04] <p0st4L> but i need a working intro frame to get used to everything
[21:46:14] <cradek> _ilias: you could use tool offsets for this purpose
[21:46:27] <andypugh> _ilias: In theory you could do it with a toolchange. The tool offsets are programmable in X and Y as well as Z. In theory you could machine with Tool1, then switch to Tool4 and it would pick up where it left off.
[21:46:29] <tjb1> p0st4L: You need 3 or 4 motors?
[21:46:32] <p0st4L> 3
[21:46:39] <p0st4L> nema23 sized
[21:46:41] <tjb1> I vote this http://www.cncrouterparts.com/3-axis-electronics-kit-p-74.html
[21:47:09] <p0st4L> $520, you're killin me dawg
[21:47:45] <p0st4L> that is a nice lil board setup they have though
[21:47:46] <tjb1> You won't regret it
[21:47:49] <_ilias> sorry for that
[21:47:53] <tjb1> Thats a Gecko G540
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[21:48:05] <andypugh> p0st4L: Same kit, easier: http://www.ebay.com/itm/3Axis-4-lead-Nema-23-Stepper-Motor-76MM-270oz-3A-driver-4-2A-128Mric-CNC-KIT-CE-/261143782954?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3ccd61e62a
[21:48:28] <andypugh> (Ah, well, smaller steppers now I look)
[21:48:49] <p0st4L> still nema23
[21:48:51] <_ilias> yes but when the code is produced by s/w like aspire or artcam, it could be difficult to edit this code for me
[21:48:54] <tjb1> p0st4L: The G540 is the cheapest of the gecko drives
[21:49:35] <andypugh> _ilias: You might have to cut the workpiece into 2 parts in the CAM program, then run that with different tools.
[21:49:44] <p0st4L> hmm
[21:49:47] <_ilias> ah yes
[21:49:58] <tjb1> Here are a bunch of different kits - http://www.kelinginc.net/CNCNEMA23Package3x.html
[21:50:33] <AR_> so
[21:50:50] <p0st4L> since the bed is only 12" x 18", i don't need very powerful motors, do i? (torque wise)
[21:50:53] <AR_> 2x4 aluminum extrusions or steel tubing (filled with something?) for CNC frame
[21:50:53] <AR_> ?
[21:51:27] <tjb1> AR_: what size
[21:51:32] <andypugh> p0st4L: I would buy _exactly_ the motors that Fireball sugest.
[21:51:37] <AR_> tjb1, small
[21:51:51] <tjb1> AR_: What kind of CNC and what do you want to do on it?
[21:51:55] <AR_> probably 10x10 work area max
[21:52:02] <_ilias> andypugh: that's correct... thx.. so there is no out of the box solution, is it?
[21:52:04] <tjb1> 10 inch?
[21:52:06] <AR_> yes
[21:52:12] <tjb1> This a router?
[21:52:17] <_ilias> is there
[21:52:18] <AR_> maybe mill circuit boards
[21:52:19] <andypugh> Machine it from solid?
[21:52:19] <_ilias> ?
[21:52:21] <AR_> other little things
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[21:52:38] <tjb1> You could do steel with no filling or 1530 inch extrusions
[21:52:39] <AR_> it would be nice to do light aluminum work but i dunno if that will happen
[21:52:47] <AR_> yeah
[21:52:49] <tjb1> even 1515 or 1010 would probably work
[21:52:54] <andypugh> I would look for a lump of aluminium tooling plate and bolt slides to that.
[21:53:02] <AR_> how stiff are the aluminum extrustions
[21:53:16] <andypugh> Not as stiff as steel.
[21:53:30] <tjb1> If you are willing to do math you can figure that out :)
[21:53:31] <AR_> but will they allow for decent accuracy in a small mill
[21:53:55] <tjb1> tslots.com gives the modulus of elasticity for all of their extrusions
[21:54:08] <tjb1> + and bunch of other information
[21:54:09] <AR_> is tslots cheaper than 8020
[21:54:31] <tjb1> In my case it was
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[21:54:58] <tjb1> They gave me free shipping because I am a student but that wouldn't matter as much in your case.
[21:55:04] <andypugh> _ilias: Not id nothing is built into the CAM.
[21:55:12] <AR_> well, i am a student :P
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[21:55:34] <tjb1> Well I was getting 10' long extrusions so shipping was almost $200 for me
[21:55:43] <andypugh> _ilias: There is certainly no G-code to automatically change tools as you get near the edge of the job.
[21:55:53] <AR_> lol oh
[21:56:29] <tjb1> Problem I had with 80/20 was them forcing me to deal with a distributor that kept no stock
[21:56:54] <tjb1> I wasn't ordering special extrusion either, I feel that 3030 and 1530 are probably the most common inch extrusions
[21:57:17] <AR_> ah
[21:57:24] <AR_> well, here is my issue
[21:57:32] <_ilias> ok thanks a lot
[21:57:39] <AR_> a few years back i was young and stupid and thought i could cheaply piece together a cnc mill
[21:57:51] <AR_> so i ordered a bunch of crap off ebay and put it together with wooden fram
[21:57:54] <AR_> frame*
[21:58:16] <_ilias> what cam s/w are you people using?
[21:58:16] <AR_> i have 2 small long linear rails with 1 carriage for each (pretty small)
[21:58:34] <tjb1> _ilias: I use sheetcam but I am plasma
[21:58:34] <AR_> i have a nice 16" hardened rod with 2 round bearings
[21:58:47] <AR_> 7/8 diameter
[21:58:52] <andypugh> I did much the same. Actually I bought an Indian knock-off of a cheap Chinese lathe, and CNC-ed that. You probably wasted less money than me.
[21:59:01] <AR_> and a small like 3/8 diameter rod with bearings
[21:59:15] <AR_> so i'm still hoping to piece together SOMETHING
[21:59:27] <AR_> but i really am tempted to just buy some nice things :P
[21:59:29] <andypugh> _ilias: I am too busy making machines to actually _use- them :-)
[21:59:40] <tjb1> _ilias: Many people on cnczone use vetric
[21:59:42] <_ilias> tjb1: happy with it?
[21:59:45] <_ilias> :)
[21:59:55] <tjb1> *Vectric
[22:00:04] <AR_> if i got a block of aluminum about 1.5" thick, with through holes for the bearings on the rods
[22:00:10] <AR_> that could make an X axis
[22:00:17] <andypugh> The only CAM I have is SheetCAM. It's OK for 2.5D stuff.
[22:00:17] <tjb1> It does its job, I haven't bought the full version yet
[22:00:26] <AR_> mount a Z on that (which i have a ballscrew and linear slide for)
[22:00:30] <_ilias> i use vectric two... but the drill bank in artcam is very tempting for my configuration
[22:00:50] <_ilias> *too
[22:01:36] <_ilias> although i haven't figured out out how to configure it yet
[22:02:02] <tjb1> AR_: Shouldn't be too hard to make one for routing PCBs
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[22:02:13] <AR_> yeah
[22:02:14] <tjb1> But if you want to do aluminum it will need to be quite a bit more rigid
[22:02:20] <AR_> thats what i keep telling myself, tjb1
[22:02:26] <AR_> but i keep trying to build around what i have
[22:02:33] <AR_> and then i get deeper into trouble
[22:06:06] <andypugh> AR_: There are only so many corners you can cut. Some parts of an adequate CNC machine do cost some money.
[22:06:20] <AR_> yeah
[22:06:35] <AR_> for precision, you need precision parts
[22:06:54] <AR_> i often wonder how lucky they had to get when building the first precise machines
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[22:08:26] <andypugh> Luckily a machine (especially a lathe) can male parts better than itself. What I don't understand is how you make machines _bigger_ than your machine.
[22:09:14] <AR_> haha
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[22:13:29] <mrsun> andypugh, http://i.ytimg.com/vi/2ivuCRavE8I/0.jpg heres one way to make bigger parts then the spindle of a lathe can handle =)
[22:13:35] <_ilias> my machine is similar to this https://www.exfactory.com/Detail.aspx?recnum=RL-010501
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[22:14:26] <andypugh> mrsun: I am not sure whether to be apalled or impressed.
[22:14:35] <mrsun> andypugh, =)
[22:14:38] <mrsun> spindle raiser =)
[22:15:13] <andypugh> _ilias: That's fairly hefty.
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[22:15:50] <_ilias> yes it is
[22:15:57] <mrsun> and ofc with some tricks you can machine alot bigger stuff in a small lathe then it can handle =)
[22:16:10] <andypugh> Did the original control automatically choose the optimum spindle?
[22:16:18] <mrsun> say you want to make a spindle for a bigger lathe .. just lay it on the side and bore it in the lathe using the lathes spindle as boring head
[22:16:24] <_ilias> but changing the controller was cheaper than buying a new one
[22:16:42] <DJ9DJ> gn8
[22:17:52] <_ilias> the machine was configured for only one task, that was using all spindles
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[22:18:29] <andypugh> I guess extending the Y slide is too difficult?
[22:18:49] <_ilias> after a while, the controller broke... changed it to linuxcnc and now want to make full use of it
[22:18:54] <andypugh> (considering that it is a problem that can be solved in software, after all)
[22:19:39] <_ilias> for movement on the Y axis the table is moving
[22:19:41] <andypugh> The spindles all move together, I assume, but you can optionally retract some?
[22:19:47] <_ilias> yes
[22:20:34] <andypugh> I think the only option is to persuade the CAM that it is two jobs, cut with two different tools.
[22:20:43] <_ilias> using electovalves the can be lowered and raised independently along the moving z-axis
[22:21:39] <toastyde1th> on fanuc that's done with either a g52 offset or defining as many work offsets as you have spindles
[22:21:50] <_ilias> I will try to solve my problem using your suggestion
[22:22:23] <toastyde1th> on the cam package you just say they're all at 0,0,0
[22:22:35] <toastyde1th> and that T1 works on offset 1, t2 on offset 2, etc
[22:22:39] <toastyde1th> that way the cam doesn't really care
[22:22:47] <toastyde1th> then on the machine you set your offsets up with a different y
[22:23:45] <toastyde1th> or just keep changing the local offset rather than work offset, but i don't know how emc does that
[22:23:53] <_ilias> so each job should have its own tool?
[22:24:08] <toastyde1th> maybe i misunderstood
[22:24:32] <toastyde1th> you have a number of spindles on y, right?
[22:24:36] <toastyde1th> and they all move together?
[22:24:43] <_ilias> yes
[22:24:49] <_ilias> along the X
[22:24:49] <toastyde1th> and you want to have them with different tools?
[22:25:06] <toastyde1th> can they move independently on y as well?
[22:25:12] <tjb1> I love it when pipes start leaking..
[22:25:12] <toastyde1th> or are they bolted onto the rail
[22:25:22] <_ilias> they are bolted
[22:25:26] <toastyde1th> cool
[22:25:36] <_ilias> they only move independently along z
[22:25:38] <toastyde1th> so each tool gets its own work offset
[22:25:42] <_ilias> yes
[22:25:44] <toastyde1th> done
[22:26:14] <_ilias> I see what you mean but my problem is
[22:26:59] <_ilias> that when the job extends beyond the workspace of one spindle... how can I automate the process of using a neighbouring spindle?
[22:27:39] <toastyde1th> you will have to do that.
[22:27:50] <toastyde1th> i.e. you will have to know that spindle 1 machines the right half
[22:27:55] <toastyde1th> and spindle 4 does the left half
[22:27:58] <_ilias> ok
[22:28:11] <toastyde1th> so you do all your cam work on t1, offset 1
[22:28:15] <toastyde1th> right side finished
[22:28:17] <_ilias> and split the job in 2 halves?
[22:28:21] <toastyde1th> switch to t4, offset 4
[22:28:24] <toastyde1th> and machine the left side
[22:28:26] <toastyde1th> yep
[22:29:08] <_ilias> yes I see your point ... than you guys a lot
[22:29:12] <toastyde1th> depending on the cam system, it should be that hard, just a wee bit time consuming
[22:29:17] <toastyde1th> *shouldn't
[22:29:33] <_ilias> in vectric aspire there is a job splitting option
[22:29:43] <toastyde1th> awesome
[22:30:09] <_ilias> I don't know though if in artcam the drill bank would be of any help
[22:31:13] <_ilias> anyway... this is beyond our scope
[22:34:03] <_ilias> is this procedure called gang milling?
[22:34:17] <toastyde1th> negative
[22:34:27] <toastyde1th> it doesn't have an explicit name that i'm aware of
[22:34:39] <_ilias> what is gang milling?
[22:34:42] <toastyde1th> gang milling would be using a bunch of cutters at once; it's usually reserved for horizontal milling machines
[22:34:53] <toastyde1th> where you have a long arbor, and the milling cutters look like big circular saws
[22:35:07] <toastyde1th> some people refer to multiple spindles, like on your router, as gang milling
[22:35:17] <toastyde1th> where you space out the milling heads and drive all of them at the same time
[22:35:36] <toastyde1th> that way for each machine cycle, each spindle makes a part
[22:35:57] <_ilias> I get it... this is the way the machine was operating
[22:36:21] <_ilias> all parts were identical though
[22:36:22] <toastyde1th> it's almost always how multispindle machines operate
[22:36:33] <toastyde1th> since most cnc machines are used to make many parts
[22:36:39] <toastyde1th> it makes sense to have many spindles make the same part
[22:38:39] <_ilias> that's clear to me now
[22:39:41] <_ilias> so we are talking about g55 g56 etc.?
[22:40:00] <toastyde1th> yes
[22:40:03] <_ilias> ok
[22:40:12] <andypugh> It might even make sense to remove some spindles, if you don't need that capability. However being able to do toolchanges really quickly is one nice feature you do have.
[22:40:12] <toastyde1th> alternatively
[22:40:21] <toastyde1th> emc lets you define specific cycles
[22:40:24] <toastyde1th> o-codes
[22:40:52] <toastyde1th> you might want to read up on that and define either custom m-codes or an o-code to modify where 0 is
[22:40:55] <toastyde1th> and not use up work offsets
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[22:41:00] <toastyde1th> if you NEVER move your spindles
[22:41:06] <andypugh> toastyde1th: I think in this case having _tool_ offsets for each spindle probably makes more sense than using different work offsets.
[22:41:08] <toastyde1th> if you do move them from time to time, the work offsets are a better way to go
[22:41:18] <_ilias> andypugh: I thought of that
[22:41:23] <skunkworks> andypugh: agreee
[22:41:26] <skunkworks> I agree
[22:41:36] <toastyde1th> andypugh, sorry, i'm not an emc guy, most controls don't have x-y modification as part of their tool offset
[22:41:47] <skunkworks> you can have xyzabcuvw offsets for each tool
[22:41:49] <toastyde1th> just length and radius
[22:41:53] <_ilias> i am not that confident on using tool -offsets
[22:42:24] <andypugh> You can have frontangle on your mill too. I am not sure what you would do with it :-)
[22:42:39] <toastyde1th> but if emc does have that, it makes a lot more sense and is more convenient than using work offsets
[22:42:53] <toastyde1th> easier to have multiple fixtures on the table
[22:43:30] <_ilias> i looking at tool offsets now
[22:43:35] <_ilias> i am
[22:43:42] <_ilias> just a minute
[22:47:08] <_ilias> so... if I correctly set the tool table it could be as easy as issuing a Tn M6 command?
[22:47:12] <marl_scot> hi guys, i curently have a reprap printer, and would like to build a basic cnc machine to run beside it, any pointers to designs/howtos for really basic and cheep to build units anyone would recomend, im not looking for anything too big, initally maybe 18" x 18", mostly would beusing it for cutting tempaltes/brackets from wood and plastic sheet
[22:48:01] <andypugh> _ilias: yes.
[22:48:23] <_ilias> ok... now I totally get it
[22:48:46] <skunkworks> marl_scot: make something out of mdf?
[22:49:11] <marl_scot> skunkworks, thats whay i was thinking of
[22:49:46] <marl_scot> with screw drive instead of belt
[22:50:28] <marl_scot> but for my first one, would be more confident if i had some kind of design that has allready been built to start from
[22:51:40] <andypugh> I don't know of any that fit your description. Which isn't to say they don't exist.
[22:52:31] <_ilias> if the tools are already mounted and i want to continue the job with the next spindle, will i need hal_manualtoolchange?
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[22:52:48] <skunkworks> there was a instructables iirc
[22:53:02] <marl_scot> what parts of the description would you say im failing on? i dont mind differant size/approch that was just my inital thoughts
[22:53:15] <_ilias> I guess i'll figure this out
[22:53:22] <skunkworks> marl_scot: like http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-Make-a-Three-Axis-CNC-Machine-Cheaply-and-/
[22:53:36] <_ilias> anyway, thank you people for your help
[22:54:24] <marl_scot> thanks skunkworks will study that one and see how i get on
[22:54:25] <_ilias> bye
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[22:54:45] <andypugh> _ilias: Not manual toolchange, no. You probably need to sey up an auto toolchange to send down the right spindle.
[22:55:28] <marl_scot> could i ask peoples advice on torque for steppers? would 40Ncm be enough for plastic, would it maybe even do wood?
[22:55:52] <marl_scot> (just i can get hold of a few cheep 40Ncm steppers at the moment!)
[22:56:14] <andypugh> It depends on leadscrew pitch too.
[22:56:34] <andypugh> 40Ncm = 0.4Nm?
[22:57:29] <marl_scot> yup
[22:57:52] <andypugh> Sounds a bit low, but then you are talking about plastic.
[22:58:28] <andypugh> Were you going to drive direct, or through belts?
[22:59:31] <marl_scot> direct i think, as it requires less components
[23:00:07] <Jymmm> **************************************
[23:00:07] <Jymmm> * 48 HOURS TILL THE END OF THE WORLD *
[23:00:07] <Jymmm> * Thank you and have a nice day *
[23:00:08] <Jymmm> **************************************
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[23:15:25] <Valen> sup peeps
[23:16:37] <Loetmichel> Jymmm: pessimist!
[23:17:10] <Loetmichel> just because the mayans handt more room on this calendar you think the world is coming to an end?
[23:17:12] <Jymmm> Loetmichel: Opposite actualy, thus the "have a nice day"
[23:17:18] <Loetmichel> hrhr
[23:19:49] <Valen> sucks for us
[23:20:00] <Valen> we are going to have the end of the world like 14 hours before you guys
[23:20:52] <p0st4L> lol
[23:21:01] <p0st4L> people sure are starting to act like it's the end of the world
[23:21:05] <p0st4L> http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/crime-law/highway-85-shut-down-after-gunfire-hits-government/nTbN5/
[23:21:10] <p0st4L> this is near me, in the bay area, ca
[23:21:16] <p0st4L> sniper shooting at a car on the fwy
[23:23:17] <Valen> i like the way that story is written, like the car has a mind of its own
[23:23:26] <andypugh> Valen: I think I figured out lube :-)
[23:23:31] <Valen> orly
[23:23:58] <andypugh> Let me find you a picture of my device.
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[23:34:30] <skunkworks> I like rube goldburg devices...
[23:34:59] <Valen> marl_scot: torque also depends on how much reduction you run
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[23:35:15] <Valen> more reduction = more torque, but less acceleration and top speed
[23:38:25] <marl_scot> yea, but speed isnt that big an issue for me, thinking is, if i'm not wanting a really fast machine, then i can use a samller drill motor and therefore build a lighter Z axis etc.
[23:39:07] <andypugh> Valen: http://imagebin.org/240011
[23:39:32] <andypugh> It relies on there being a gap in the inner ball races.
[23:40:00] <andypugh> (The bearing has seals not shown, I will remove the rightmost one)
[23:41:29] <tjb1> andypugh: what is that
[23:42:06] <andypugh> It's a rotating ballnut mount
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[23:46:48] <andypugh> tjb1: Later development of https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/EqgIdXH-kCH8I90oYKfm2dMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink
[23:47:44] <Valen> heh neat
[23:47:51] <toastyde1th> are you making a static screw machine
[23:47:57] <andypugh> Yes
[23:48:00] <toastyde1th> nice
[23:48:49] <andypugh> Unfortunately the bearings I need don't exist.
[23:49:11] -!- tjb1 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
[23:49:14] <andypugh> So I am using that one, that does exist, but which I can't fit the ballnut into.
[23:49:16] <toastyde1th> AIR BEARINGS!
[23:49:38] <toastyde1th> :D
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[23:50:17] <andypugh> It's an idea. But perhaps not a good one.
[23:51:30] <toastyde1th> hahah
[23:51:53] <Valen> http://scitechdaily.com/liquid-metal-used-in-ultra-stretchable-conducting-wires/
[23:51:55] toastyde1th is now known as toastydeath
[23:52:11] <Valen> i figure it should also knock wire fatigue on the head
[23:53:05] <toastydeath> the only reason i suggested air bearings is that they're relatively easy to build
[23:53:13] <toastydeath> if you really get shit out of luck on finding something to fit
[23:53:33] <Valen> air for the rotating nut bearings?
[23:54:18] <toastydeath> no no, i meant if you can't find bearings with the contact angle or ID/OD you want
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[23:56:45] <Valen> I've been thinking about air for the linear rail axies
[23:56:48] <Valen> those are expensive
[23:57:12] <Valen> but making them would probably be hard
[23:57:22] <Valen> Also air for the spindle would be nice
[23:57:58] <toastydeath> not as hard as you'd think
[23:58:03] <toastydeath> making the rail straight is the hardest part
[23:58:19] <Valen> that'd be the issue
[23:58:25] <andypugh> I have designed parts with integral air bearings. As you say, not difficult in principle.
[23:58:29] <Valen> it'd need to be very consistent in thickness
[23:58:38] <toastydeath> flat bearings can be lapped, then expoxied into place
[23:58:39] <andypugh> Just a gap, with an air supply, in fact.
[23:58:49] * toastydeath used to work at new way, which makes nothing but air bearings
[23:59:25] <toastydeath> the trick to aligning bearings for linear ways is vacuum
[23:59:48] <toastydeath> instead of hooking em up to a compressor