#linuxcnc | Logs for 2012-12-08

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[00:20:37] <gene77> Lo all
[00:20:48] <andypugh> Ho gene
[00:20:58] <gene77> Hi Andy
[00:21:32] <gene77> working around the comp module
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[00:22:05] <gene77> its part of my electronic fuse
[00:22:12] <andypugh> Which one?
[00:22:37] <andypugh> Ah, that one.
[00:22:52] <gene77> man 9 comp
[00:23:15] <andypugh> Ah, the comparator. Not the tool of the same name for making components.
[00:23:38] <gene77> I don't have anything wired to comp.0.in0, yes
[00:24:36] <gene77> i have pid.0.error wired to lowpass,1.in with a gain of about .1 for smoothing
[00:24:58] <andypugh> OK
[00:25:03] <gene77> and lowpass.1.out to comp.0.in1
[00:25:46] <gene77> co,p.0.out to motion.enable
[00:25:56] <gene77> comp.0.out to motion.enable
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[00:26:49] <andypugh> Sounds reasonable so far.
[00:27:07] <gene77> I took that 10 uf cap out of Arturo's C41 and put in a .2 mylar, for much speedier response
[00:27:49] <andypugh> Is the PWM frequency still enough?
[00:28:56] <gene77> I have pid.0.FF0 way high, and pid.0.Pgain way up to, and at the moment its runniung about 300 rpm & rattling the head stock gears clearance, wobbling about 50 rpm I guess.
[00:29:19] <gene77> Thats currently at 400
[00:29:22] <andypugh> 50 rpm, or Hz?
[00:29:39] <gene77> rpms I think
[00:29:53] <andypugh> So rattling less than once a second?
[00:30:16] <andypugh> Or are you talking about the speed delta?
[00:30:41] <gene77> at slightly more than 1 second intervals I'd guess. yes speed delta
[00:31:16] <andypugh> You might wany I not P
[00:31:38] <gene77> and it isn't all that cyclic and doesn't really improve all that much if I lay a good grip on the chuck and warm up my hand
[00:32:45] <gene77> I have hal.conf on screen, I can try that, Igain is about .04 IIRC brb
[00:33:21] <gene77> .oo4
[00:34:48] <gene77> I tried up to 1.0 but that made it worse
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[00:36:23] <gene77> Setp Pgain down to 100 sped it up, and sped up the wobble too
[00:36:57] <andypugh> What's the controller time-constant with the new cap?
[00:38:45] <gene77> Good Q , its feedback around an LF357 IITC
[00:39:36] <gene77> IIRC
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[00:41:44] <gene77> I don't have my magnifying glass out here, its an 8 pin cmos opamp in that family though
[00:42:37] <andypugh> So, op-amp filter? I don't know enough electronics to work out that time constant
[00:42:55] <andypugh> What happens at twice the spindle speed?
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[00:43:21] <gene77> I should, but Arturo isn't really sharing his schematics :)
[00:44:48] <andypugh> http://www.swarthmore.edu/NatSci/echeeve1/Ref/FilterBkgrnd/Filters.html
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[00:45:43] <gene77> Well, I took Pgain down to 15, and its stable nowm gained about 200 revs in that change, and the error is running negative
[00:46:16] <andypugh> So, just too much gain then?
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[00:47:00] <Jymmm> andypugh: gene77 http://sim.okawa-denshi.jp/en/RLClowkeisan.htm
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[00:47:36] <andypugh> Jymmm: Does that work for an active filter?
[00:47:41] <Jymmm> andypugh: gene77 left column has all kinds of filters, low, high, bandpass, etc
[00:48:04] <andypugh> Sallen Key, that's the one
[00:48:11] <Jymmm> andypugh: last entry in the left column http://sim.okawa-denshi.jp/en/opampkeisan.htm
[00:48:20] <gene77> Seems stable even running pretty close to wide open about 10 rps according to the index pulse in halscope
[00:49:13] <andypugh> (I used a Sallen-Key as the output stage of my Resolver board.
[00:49:45] <gene77> But I believe its spinning faster than that. How accurate in the halscope timebase?
[00:50:05] <andypugh> Should be good, it uses the PC clock
[00:51:25] <Jymmm> Now, if it only told you what you need to wind your own chokes =)
[00:51:42] <gene77> Ok, this is progress on the speed, I slowed it down to about 3 rps and its as stiff as it can be speedwise.
[00:52:22] <gene77> That takes data from Arnold that I've long since lost since I last used it.
[00:52:38] <gene77> 25 years ago I think...
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[00:53:24] <Tom_itx> andypugh, http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/cnc/ACPL-P480_opto_sch.png
[00:53:27] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/cnc/ACPL-P480_opto_brd.png
[00:54:08] <andypugh> Making the PCB?
[00:54:17] <Tom_itx> naw i just drew it up
[00:54:23] <Tom_itx> unless you want the files
[00:54:25] <gene77> At 1.66 rps, I can't stop it
[00:54:37] <andypugh> (Probably simple enough for marker-pen ant etching production)
[00:54:49] <Tom_itx> i may get one next time i order something from dk or mouser
[00:54:58] <Tom_itx> probably so
[00:55:09] <andypugh> (and, not ant. I don't think formic acid is a great etchant)
[00:55:50] <Tom_itx> i've done fairly fine homebrew etching but not lately
[00:55:51] <gene77> Now, next silly Q, should pid.0.FF0 then be adjusted to nreduce the pid.0.error?
[00:57:07] <gene77> That gets pretty high in the - direction when the speed is cranked up again.
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[00:58:00] <andypugh> Probably.
[00:58:17] <andypugh> But it will probably only be right at one speed.
[00:58:45] <Tom_itx> these attiny10 boards are probably the tightest traces i've done: http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/temp/tiny/tinyboard1.jpg
[01:00:08] <andypugh> They look good.
[01:00:09] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: you do those?
[01:00:15] <Tom_itx> yeah
[01:00:37] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: is that a programmer or AVR ?
[01:01:00] <Tom_itx> it's an attiny10 breakout board
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[01:01:18] * Jymmm googles attiny10
[01:01:22] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/temp/tiny/tinyTPI1.jpg
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[01:01:51] <Tom_itx> 4 io avr
[01:02:02] <Tom_itx> 16 bit timer, adc, pwm etc
[01:02:16] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: does it need an ext crystal?
[01:02:31] <gene77> That seems to be pretty good at 95. Is this the % of forward from command to output?
[01:03:18] <andypugh> gene77: Not directly. It is just a multiplier factor.
[01:05:11] <gene77> But I'm under the impression if its not 100, then its fighting with something else. I have so much low pass it takes a minute to stabilize at a new value
[01:06:22] <gene77> at 89 its negative, at 88 its positive but both are within .05 of zero
[01:07:09] <gene77> Now then, back to the comp that is my fuse.
[01:07:47] <andypugh> I think the answer to the question you haven't asked yet us "setp"
[01:08:26] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: how much you selling a stuffed pcb for?
[01:09:36] <gene77> Would it be better to comp pid.0.command to pid.0.error? That would seem to give an overload only trip, exactly what doctor gene wants
[01:09:53] <gene77> I don't have an input to comp.0.in0 atm
[01:09:59] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: And, can it be socketed (seriously)?
[01:10:45] <Tom_itx> Jymmm, i'm not selling those
[01:10:58] <andypugh> gene77: You don't necessarily need an input to the pin. You can just setp it in the HAL file.
[01:11:00] <Tom_itx> i made it to test a protocol for my programmer
[01:11:25] <Tom_itx> you're welcome to the files
[01:11:49] <Tom_itx> the chips are about $.50
[01:13:15] <Tom_itx> Jymmm, internal 12mhz osc
[01:17:20] <jdh> I got 10 SOT-23 breakout boards on ebay for like $6. Should work for them
[01:18:27] <gene77> I see I need to change my handle, I had a birthday 2 months back, so now I'm 78. :)
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[01:25:41] <andypugh> Doh! I thought you were 35 :-)
[01:26:41] <jdh> I'm only 31... 0x31 anyway
[01:27:07] <gene77> Thanks for the hand holding Andy. Except for the fuse bit, its working a lot better, but my diabetic feet are yelling for some heat. Yeah sure you did. :D
[01:27:15] <gene77> good night
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[01:49:55] <Jymmm> jdh: link?
[01:58:10] <adb> http://junkplusarduino.blogspot.ch/p/attiny10-resources.html >Jymmm
[01:59:35] <jdh> http://www.ebay.com/itm/270675844636
[01:59:55] <jdh> 10 for $4.50 shipped
[02:02:38] <jdh> or this one does sot23 & ssop8 http://www.ebay.com/itm/270676347982
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[02:11:05] <Tom_itx> Jymmm what you got in mind for the t10?
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[03:04:17] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: RGB LED controller/sequencer/dohickey
[03:09:45] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: Heh http://hackaday.com/2012/08/23/programming-the-attiny10-with-an-arduino/
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[03:12:18] <Tom_itx> yep
[03:12:32] <Tom_itx> although i don't need one
[03:14:00] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/avr/tiny10/
[03:14:03] <Tom_itx> there's a few programs
[03:14:09] <Tom_itx> just test stuff
[03:14:30] <Jymmm> programmed in what?
[03:14:36] <Tom_itx> asm
[03:14:47] <Tom_itx> it's the language of choice on the t10
[03:14:59] <Jymmm> Damn =(
[03:15:03] <jdh> is there something else?
[03:15:08] <Tom_itx> gcc doesn't support it unless they've just added it recently
[03:15:17] <Tom_itx> something to do with the stack
[03:15:28] <Tom_itx> asm isn't bad
[03:15:45] <Jymmm> other than I've never touched it
[03:15:57] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/avr/tiny10/goodies/pwm/
[03:16:04] <Tom_itx> me either until i did it
[03:16:14] <Tom_itx> that's a little blinking lights and siren
[03:16:20] <Tom_itx> i found
[03:16:42] <Tom_itx> i've done a couple other chips in asm since then
[03:18:24] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/avr/tiny10/t10blink.asm
[03:18:26] <Tom_itx> led blink
[03:18:58] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/avr/tiny10/test/tn10_pwm_test.asm
[03:19:15] <Tom_itx> that one has a good basic start. all the interrupts are defined etc
[03:19:53] <jdh> I signed up for the sample thing, no email to my work email yet though.
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[03:46:52] <Jymmm> sample thing?
[03:49:12] <Tom_itx> yeah
[03:49:19] <Tom_itx> it's when you get something for nothing
[03:49:45] <Jymmm> and your chicks for free
[03:50:17] <Jymmm> crap I haven't done my cw today
[03:50:21] <Tom_itx> you probably get more than chicks for free
[03:50:55] <Tom_itx> atmel's sample program is rather poor though
[03:51:13] <Jymmm> whats the next bigger?
[03:51:49] <jdh> poor how?
[03:52:02] <jdh> like, they don't give out samples?
[03:52:04] <Tom_itx> takes forever to get anything
[03:52:12] <jdh> oh. I can live with that
[03:52:23] <jdh> TI is great
[03:52:31] <Tom_itx> i managed to get some but they were sent to my local rep who then contacted me to deliver them
[03:53:03] <jdh> I had to pay $10 shipping for FreeScale, but they fedexed them from hongkong
[03:53:25] <Jymmm> I'd love to find an RGB version of this http://www.maximintegrated.com/datasheet/index.mvp/id/1339
[03:53:26] <Tom_itx> i've had samples come direct from digikey before
[03:54:01] <Jymmm> Heh, I can just drive over to freescale
[03:54:21] <Jymmm> or atmel, or maxim, or most of the others
[03:54:36] <jdh> does maxim do samples?
[03:54:38] <Tom_itx> check their trash bins
[03:54:51] <Tom_itx> i got 2-300 leds that way once
[03:54:55] <Jymmm> jdh: Yes, I've picked them up will call from them
[03:55:44] <Jymmm> oh an xilinx too
[03:56:10] <Jymmm> but i dnt know if they give samples, just where they are
[03:57:02] <Jymmm> But, these things are expensive http://www.maximintegrated.com/datasheet/index.mvp/id/1339
[04:00:05] <jdh> I've never watned to drive an LED
[04:00:45] <Jymmm> Heh, I want to drive about 400 of em
[04:01:21] <jdh> https://shop.maximintegrated.com/storefront/samplecart.do?event=SampleNow&partnumber=&rownum=1
[04:02:59] <jdh> Maxim.s sample program is one of the most generous in the industry. Free samples of most parts are available to registered members using commercial (e.g. @companyname.com) or educational institution (e.g. @edu.com) email accounts.
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[07:52:40] <DJ9DJ> moin
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[12:45:56] <awallin> in case there's anyone here from Finland (or maybe Sweden or someplace else nearby), I'm selling my Atom N330 ITX-machine with a Mesa 5i20: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/o8p9e38g4c3y13a/jMYY16KyHn?m#/
[12:46:40] <awallin> shipping somewhere far (germany or US etc) is probably going to be too expensive to be worth it
[12:47:29] <archivist> unless you pay the shipping :)
[12:48:00] <awallin> right..
[12:48:24] <andypugh> mrsun is in .se
[12:49:03] <andypugh> I will be working in FInland next month, but only briefly, and I don't need a 5i20 :-)
[12:49:53] <archivist> could be a crafty way to reduce postage to the uk ?
[12:49:56] <awallin> ok. we just had a spell of -15C but now it's a warm -5C again..
[12:50:22] <andypugh> That's no good. I want at least -20. -40 was too cold a couple of years ago.
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[13:05:49] <jthornton> high of 60F here today
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[13:10:52] <mrsun> awallin, how much? :)
[13:10:59] <mrsun> and why selling? :P
[13:12:28] <awallin> mrsun: I was thinking 200euros, with 15euros shipping within finland - not sure what it is to sweden. I got a new i3 machine and have a new mesa card on order for further experimenting so this one has just been in storage for a year now
[13:15:43] zz_satyag is now known as satyag
[13:19:40] <mrsun> would be neat but dont think i can afford it atm ... :/
[13:22:03] <awallin> just posted it to the finnish cnc-forum so we'll see if there is interest
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[13:48:20] <jthornton> http://linuxcnc.org/index.php/english/forum/41-guis/25923-touch-screen-gui#27412
[13:50:41] <awallin> should the top-row of button look like tabs? or are they status-indicators?
[13:51:05] <archivist> the question about size, any fixed size will annoy someone
[13:51:45] <archivist> axis does not fit on my box upstairs at the moment
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[13:58:44] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: The STATUS and OVERRIDES may look/feel/fit better if they where all on the same row instead of stacked
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[14:06:00] <jthornton> awallin, the top row is a button and status row
[14:06:06] <Jymmm> jthornton: un/Pause (resume) are usually the same button, just toggled.
[14:06:26] <jthornton> archivist, the size is not fixed but the minimum size
[14:08:04] <archivist> the os takes some screen estate so an 800x600 screen does not leave you 600
[14:08:19] <andypugh> It needs brigh colours and simulates transparebcy/shinyness and to look like a fruit machine to tempt the Mach boys over :-)
[14:08:31] <jthornton> LOL
[14:08:37] * archivist slaps andypugh
[14:09:02] <jthornton> Jymmm, yea it could be the same button
[14:09:05] <archivist> I wasted an hour fixing a setup on a mac yesterday
[14:09:21] <andypugh> On a "Mac" or on "Mach"?
[14:09:37] <archivist> user upgraded his os it trashed his apache php and mysql setup
[14:09:48] <andypugh> (For fun the Mac uses the Mach unix kernel)
[14:09:49] <archivist> Mac
[14:10:05] <archivist> what a heap
[14:10:06] * jthornton goes out to the BP to see how the GUI feels on a touch screen
[14:10:35] <Jymmm> +------+ +-------+
[14:10:35] <Jymmm> | HELP | | CLEAR |
[14:10:36] <Jymmm> | | | PLOT |
[14:10:36] <Jymmm> +- F1 -+ +- F2 --+
[14:10:50] <archivist> so many keys missing making it unusable
[14:11:19] <archivist> no effin delete key
[14:11:46] <Jymmm> There is
[14:11:54] * Loetmichel is still thinking about an app to convert a cheap 7" tablet to a MPG for linuxCNC
[14:12:05] <archivist> there is a backspace
[14:12:18] <Jymmm> archivist: SHIFT+BACKSPACE == DELETE =)
[14:12:22] <Loetmichel> ... but my programming abilitys are WAY below that kind of stuff :-(
[14:12:34] <archivist> ONE key as a sensible machine
[14:12:36] <andypugh> archivist: There are a lot of gear hobs on eBay at the moment, seemingly all from the same seller. They are also a really funny shape, in the main.
[14:13:19] <archivist> I have 0 funds though and a council tax bill of 700
[14:13:32] <andypugh> I have to say I rarely feel the urge to forward-delete
[14:14:01] <andypugh> I wasn't suggesting you buy the hobs, but you could tell me what the heck they are for :-)
[14:14:02] <Jymmm> andypugh: It's teh backspace key archivist is talking about,
[14:14:14] <Jymmm> or lack there of
[14:14:19] <andypugh> Jymmm: I know. I use a Mac. :-)
[14:14:24] <archivist> andypugh, which seller
[14:14:53] <andypugh> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/310370873395
[14:15:33] <archivist> I think he is over priced, not sure if he sells any
[14:17:10] <andypugh> I am mainly wondering what they are for. I don't think that will make a gear.
[14:17:53] <andypugh> Might make a ball-spline..
[14:18:16] <Jymmm> jthornton: You might consider laying out the functions keys much like a keypad (3x4 matrix), then they could double up as Function keys or numeric input.
[14:18:17] <archivist> I agree its not a normal gear perhaps a toothed belt
[14:18:28] <andypugh> Ah, yes. Hence the 8mm pitch.
[14:18:47] <andypugh> `And the others are for the othe belt types.
[14:19:14] <archivist> and they may be restricted to particular diameters too
[14:20:18] <andypugh> Shouldn't be. If the hob is the profile of a straight belt (as a hob is typically the profile of a rack) then they should generate correctly for any tooth count.
[14:20:42] <archivist> those are curved
[14:21:35] <andypugh> Yes, and so are some styles of belt.
[14:23:41] <andypugh> http://www.tunedtech.ca/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Timing-Belt.jpg
[14:24:45] <archivist> hobs for clock teeth have a limited range they can cover due to the curved sides
[14:25:10] <andypugh> There are all sorts of games to play with relative tooth length and pulley depth. They went through several iterations on the last engine I worked on trying to stop the engine sounding like a goose at certain revs...
[14:26:09] <archivist> but for a specialist design, one makes the hobs to suit, and then what he has becomes useless unless making the right pattern parts
[14:27:25] <andypugh> But clocks like to have 3 teeth or less, so things get a bit funny. With a toothed belt pulley you still need to fit a shaft down the middle, so it's a little easier.
[14:27:59] <archivist> I would love a selection of smaller sizes to play with but know the likely use for them needs more blue moons
[14:28:24] <andypugh> Did Mr Wierd pay for your crazy gears?
[14:28:29] <archivist> no
[14:28:48] <andypugh> Sorry for putting him on to you then.
[14:29:04] <archivist> you were not to know
[14:29:24] <archivist> I dont blame you just send better loons next time :)
[14:31:29] <andypugh> Did he take the parts and not pay, or just decide he didn't want them?
[14:31:48] <Loetmichel> andypugh: and after a few years it looks like this: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=8955
[14:32:06] <archivist> I seem to have found another on friday who wants me to sign an nda, except he failed to send a valid nda for me to sign(didnt fix the multiple choice on a sample)
[14:32:49] <Loetmichel> that was a timing belt out of a HP desingjet 750C... fault description from customer "head skips some from time to time"
[14:33:00] <andypugh> Loetmichel: My professsional opinion is that that belt is due for replacement.
[14:33:10] <Loetmichel> *o.really.jpg*
[14:33:23] <archivist> andypugh, I sent him a price and then waited, then sent a prompt, then he claimed to be out of the country and not understand, I dont post any thing without moneyz
[14:34:03] <archivist> Loetmichel, is the tension spring broken/misplaced
[14:34:25] <andypugh> Maybe you can find a small Ninja in need ot throwing-stars.
[14:34:33] <Loetmichel> archivist: just old age in combination with a place with much temperature change
[14:34:46] <archivist> seems the last ninjas are retiring
[14:35:08] <Loetmichel> the rubber could be broken to bits from the glass fibre like is was made from wet sand!
[14:35:38] <archivist> Loetmichel, the plastics on the tension and drive gears would be where I looked
[14:36:36] <Loetmichel> archivist: it had gotten a new belt and is running now for about 2 years like new... apart from the worn down service station which lets the head dry in about a month ;-)
[14:37:06] <Loetmichel> have to buy a new service staion or the rubber gaskets any time now ;-)
[14:38:38] <archivist> andypugh, at least those gears got me to make a cutter grinder, that has earned money sharpening a rotabroach
[14:39:32] <JT-Shop> Jymmm: I have a number pad that pops up when needed http://linuxcnc.org/index.php/english/forum/41-guis/25881-python-gtk-ngcgui?start=12
[14:39:59] satyag is now known as zz_satyag
[14:40:07] <andypugh> You could offer a sharpening service via a dodgy eBay ad. Just make sure you only display sharp tools, not the sharpening machine :-)
[14:41:12] <archivist> I found a price list to compete with http://www.cuttercare.co.uk/sharpening-pricelist.php
[14:43:01] <archivist> andypugh, do you think 358 was too expensive for those gears I made
[14:43:16] <Tom_itx> gears are expensive to make
[14:43:48] <andypugh> £358? Or £58?
[14:44:04] <archivist> £358 for 6
[14:44:33] <archivist> I think it was a reasonable/ too cheap
[14:44:51] <andypugh> I reckon that would be a lot more than he expected to have to pay. Did you quote prior to beginning work?
[14:45:24] <archivist> no, had no idea what it would really take to get done
[14:45:58] <Tom_itx> there is bidding software out ther
[14:45:59] <Tom_itx> e
[14:46:06] <andypugh> TBH I was fairly sure he wasn't prepared to pay enough to tempt me to do it. But then I am comfortable for money but seem to lack time.
[14:46:37] <andypugh> But £60 each for one-off protoypes seems perfectly reasonable.
[14:47:32] <archivist> I end up spending too much time trying to do things without me spending money, which costs time
[14:47:36] <Tom_itx> what's TCT? carbide?
[14:47:50] <archivist> yes
[14:48:12] <archivist> last being tip
[14:48:15] <archivist> T
[14:48:26] <Tom_itx> not sure how those numbers compare to the US dollar but seem rather cheap
[14:48:54] <andypugh> You seem to be charging about twice as much as HPC do for stock gears. Which seems emminently reasonable. http://www.hpcgears.com/newpdf/bevel_gears_0.8_2.5mod.pdf
[14:49:14] <Tom_itx> i think i'm paying around $25-30 for a 60 tooth carbide blade
[14:49:25] <archivist> HPC know how to charge for specials :)
[14:49:38] <Tom_itx> tri cut
[14:50:16] <andypugh> Tom_itx: £16 == $10.
[14:50:39] <archivist> other way round
[14:50:44] <andypugh> Yes, sorry.
[14:50:46] <andypugh> Doh!
[14:50:47] <Tom_itx> sounds about right then
[14:51:23] <Tom_itx> carbide tri cut 60 tooth iirc i paid around 25-30 us
[14:57:19] <JT-Shop> looks like the touch screen GUI fits nice in a 12" or larger monitor
[15:11:12] <JT-Shop> archivist: was this for me?
[15:11:13] <JT-Shop> <archivist> so many keys missing making it unusable
[15:11:13] <JT-Shop> <archivist> no effin delete key
[15:12:27] <archivist> no just me griping about Macs , over priced where less is more....shiny
[15:12:34] <JT-Shop> ah ok
[15:12:54] <JT-Shop> Jymmm:
[15:12:55] <JT-Shop> <Jymmm> | HELP | | CLEAR |???
[15:14:50] <andypugh> archivist: I like Macs. I like shiny. And they are arguably only over-priced in the way that $CAR is overpriced, offering no more transportation effectiveness than $OTHER_CAR.
[15:15:29] <andypugh> Differentiation on the basis of shinyness rather than function is just a sign of a mature market.
[15:16:18] <archivist> well I found it much harder to support a user as stuff gets moved/changed for $ ans shiny reasons not ease of use for a programmer
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[15:17:57] <archivist> but the killer is he had it working and just did an upgrade like a good boy and apple broke it for him
[15:19:01] <skunkworks> My wife finally got a ipad a few months back... They are really cool. She uses it every day. I am tempted...
[15:19:42] <Loetmichel> skunkworks: i am not
[15:19:51] <skunkworks> heh
[15:19:54] <Loetmichel> even my wife has one from hte company
[15:20:09] <Loetmichel> privately we are using relatively cheap android ones
[15:20:30] <Loetmichel> and my favouurite so far is a dirt cheap 7" 16:9
[15:20:49] <skunkworks> I bought a nook color that I rooted and have jelly bean installed. It is nice - but not as refined.
[15:20:53] <Loetmichel> because it fits in the inner pocket of the coat ;-)
[15:21:45] <skunkworks> Loetmichel: what brand is the 7"
[15:21:54] <Loetmichel> so i can use it for the intended puorpose: to be the "always everywhere internet browser"
[15:22:11] <Loetmichel> its a china gadget i bought from a german CNC company.
[15:22:13] <Loetmichel> ISEL
[15:22:31] <Loetmichel> it has no "brand" in that manner
[15:22:43] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=12913
[15:22:48] <Loetmichel> that one
[15:23:28] <Loetmichel> i have accumilated a FEW tablets over the years: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=13406
[15:24:40] <andypugh> I just bought a Kindle Fire as a christmas present. So far I feel no urge to get a tablet. (the iPhone fills the mobile internet role for me)
[15:24:58] <Loetmichel> and there is my new Samsung note... and 2 more tablets in 8" and 10" from archos: ab 80g9turbo for me and a 10.1g9 for my wife
[15:25:32] <skunkworks> The nook is a little underpowered - but it holds it's own.
[15:25:39] <Loetmichel> which are residing on the according nightstands beside the bed ;-)
[15:26:33] <Loetmichel> the samsung note has made the 7" isel more or less obsolete because it is not much smaller but has the better screen resolution and a faster CPU
[15:28:14] <skunkworks> I have been looking for something cheap that has a bit more power - but now that I have been running JB - it would have to run it...
[15:30:46] <Loetmichel> the arcos 80G9turbo has a dualcore 1,6GHZ IIRC
[15:30:51] <Loetmichel> and is fast enough
[15:31:04] <Loetmichel> for my pourposes
[15:31:18] <Loetmichel> and is relatively cheap
[15:31:45] <Loetmichel> bur has a BIT to much size to be always carried around
[15:31:48] <Loetmichel> but
[15:32:17] <skunkworks> I don't have a smart phone.... Probably wont..
[15:34:17] <Loetmichel> ... AND it has the option to integrate a GSM/hspa/wahtever stick in it
[15:34:17] <skunkworks> atleast not in the near future
[15:42:10] <jdh> why?
[15:44:16] <mrsun> awallin, that chassie tho, what kind is that? :)
[16:20:52] <skunkworks> jdh - I rarely use my cell phone. - just to call my wife and emergencies..
[16:21:19] <awallin> mrsun: the case for the old machine is a codegen mx31, see https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=codegen+mx31
[16:24:17] <jdh> skunk: that's because you have an old, clunky phone that doesn't do much else?
[16:24:48] <skunkworks> it actually has internet on it (trakphone) but it is painfull
[16:25:54] <skunkworks> but most places have wireless access around here. - and it is much easier on a tablet or laptop
[16:28:28] <jdh> I fondled a Note2 the other day, but didn't get it.
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[16:56:05] <andypugh> I have a job to do that would be a breeze with a shaper.
[16:56:19] <andypugh> But I only have a mill. Ah well.
[16:56:25] <archivist> use the mill as a shaper
[16:56:40] <andypugh> When I call it a mill....
[16:57:54] <andypugh> Actually, manual milling on the Harrison is probably the answer.
[16:57:55] <archivist> I have turned a tool 90 degrees on a lathe and cut grooves, shaping ish
[16:58:35] <archivist> was the knurling on a model adjustable spanner
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[16:59:10] <andypugh> I have done that with keyways, and the drive pinion on my pillar drill was one I made that way (with my dad's help) when I was about 10.
[17:02:43] <andypugh> away
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[17:10:38] <IchGuckLive> hi all B)
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[17:38:36] <schwinn434> hello
[17:38:45] <IchGuckLive> B)
[17:39:00] <IchGuckLive> new nick
[17:39:20] <IchGuckLive> never saw this what is your linuxccnc attent
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[18:16:55] <IchGuckLive> ok then have a nice Suturday where ever you are in the World
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[19:34:40] <L84Supper> http://heartygfx.free.fr/Printer3D/essais_20.png how do you tell people that they aren't going to get the resolution they expect if you use cheap drawer slides for linear bearings?
[19:35:45] <toastydeath> pretty much that
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[19:44:38] <L84Supper> http://store.solidoodle.com/image/cache/data/PRO-500x500.jpg I thought this was just a proof of concept made on someone kitchen table with leftover parts but it's an actual production printer
[19:45:45] <archivist> people are clueless about resolution and accuracy
[19:45:46] <L84Supper> hose clamps hold the rods in place
[19:48:52] <archivist> at least they say the precision is meaningless at the bottom of http://store.solidoodle.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=79
[19:49:15] <toastydeath> I PUT A 50 NANOMETER RESOLVER ON THIS!
[19:49:27] <toastydeath> I KNOW MY DESK DRAWER POSITION TO 100 NM
[19:49:33] <L84Supper> lol
[19:49:38] <archivist> but calling it world class is pushing it a bit
[19:49:52] <icee> it's not crazy to use drawer slides to make a plastic printer
[19:50:06] <icee> forces are negligible, resolution of fused deposition is crap no matter what
[19:50:49] <archivist> they have play and lost motion its crazy
[19:51:10] <icee> for $800 it's crazy
[19:51:29] <icee> if it lets you get things down to a $200-build-your-own-from-readily-available-parts footprint it's awesome/amazing
[19:51:52] <icee> you can do some pretty trivial preloading things to make the play a lot better too
[19:53:16] <icee> you know? I don't really need a plastic printer with present capabilities.. but if it was $300 i'd be making all kinds of little bushings and brackets and stuff that way
[19:54:16] <toastydeath> i want to build a plastic printer to make wax parts for casting
[19:54:29] <archivist> I have used machines with springs for 0 play and they DONT have draw slides, they have hand scraped slides and are made in Switzerland
[19:54:29] <toastydeath> or making forms for casting
[19:54:48] <L84Supper> the FDM are pretty crude, the DLP type SLA are easily down to 50um res
[19:55:00] <toastydeath> also I am irritated with the mentality of the plastic printer folks
[19:55:09] <L84Supper> toastydeath: what size parts? just roughly
[19:55:11] <toastydeath> and think something like EMC would be far better for the machine control
[19:55:28] <icee> hand scraped slides for an extrusion-based plastic printer seems crazy
[19:55:29] <toastydeath> L84Supper, large-ish parts
[19:55:38] <toastydeath> 3x3x3 foot envelope
[19:55:53] <L84Supper> what res do you need?
[19:56:06] <icee> drawer slides may be too low end, but anything above v bearings?
[19:56:11] <toastydeath> no idea, i haven't planned this out in detail
[19:56:45] <toastydeath> i just kind of thought to myself how much easier it would be to make core boxes and things using a 3d printer
[19:58:10] <toastydeath> the issue for me is the printing method is purely 2.5d, whereas emc handles 5 axis shit wonderfully
[19:58:26] <toastydeath> I'd want to be able to print truly support-free objects
[19:58:38] <toastydeath> by rotating the print table to reorient gravity and thus the material flow
[19:59:40] <L84Supper> inkjet printers deposit the build material and support material
[19:59:44] <Jymmm> We will reorient gravity to Right instead of Down, Thank you and have nice day.
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[20:01:12] <L84Supper> I'm working on multiphase materials for SLA, so there is support material without supports
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[20:02:03] <L84Supper> SLA typically has been limited by supports being printer with the same material so it ends up similar to injection molding with support you have to break off
[20:02:34] <toastydeath> i see this whole issue as being caused by an unnecessary fixation on 2.5d printing
[20:03:16] <archivist> and/or plastic
[20:03:41] <toastydeath> this may be an outsider's perspective but it seems to me that the printing side of things is engaged in a bit of Not Invented Here
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[20:04:04] <toastydeath> when they've already got the beginnings of is essentially a CAM system, coupled to a crappy machine control
[20:04:07] <L84Supper> it's a whole lot of that and patent battles
[20:04:44] <toastydeath> i think everyone would be better off if emc was used as the control, and the CAM system was bolted on to that - that would be a win for both printing, and for machining
[20:05:07] <L84Supper> that's what we use
[20:05:20] <toastydeath> which "we"
[20:05:54] <L84Supper> the reprap devs for some reason just don't like the idea of EMC
[20:06:20] <toastydeath> is there a specific reason?
[20:06:55] <L84Supper> they just made some smarter boards with 32b ARM soc's LPC1769 cortex m3
[20:07:21] <L84Supper> the argument seems to be keeping the printer low cost
[20:07:40] <L84Supper> but you need a PC host anyway
[20:08:14] <toastydeath> lol
[20:08:27] <L84Supper> so now they have new ARM boards that can run without a host but there is no display
[20:08:40] <Nick001-Shop> Kirk - are you around?
[20:09:19] <kwallace> Hello, this is Kirk
[20:09:49] <toastydeath> bbl
[20:09:55] <Nick001-Shop> got some questions about the hardinge and the vertical slide
[20:10:05] <L84Supper> http://smoothieware.org/smoothieboard for instance or https://0xfb.com/shop.html
[20:10:45] <kwallace> I can try to help.
[20:11:13] <Nick001-Shop> there's a switch that the slide hits at the bottom of travel - how did you wire it in?
[20:12:15] <kwallace> I haven't done anything with it. I just part with a tool in the turret.
[20:13:33] <kwallace> My guess is it should be wired like a limit switch?
[20:14:03] <Nick001-Shop> got it to extend and retract but having trouble inputting the switch to hold back the retract until the switch contacts
[20:14:27] <jthornton> the pneumatic slide?
[20:14:37] <Nick001-Shop> yes
[20:15:04] <jthornton> would that not tell you the cut is finished and time to retract the slide?
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[20:15:20] <jthornton> I don't have one on my CHNC
[20:15:25] <Nick001-Shop> I know I should be able to figure it out but I'm not seeing it
[20:16:09] <jthornton> activate solenoid till the switch input then turn off the solenoid
[20:16:27] <jthornton> seems like you need a switch at the top and bottom to know when the parting cycle is done
[20:16:33] <Nick001-Shop> I saw that on your site which is why I asked Kirk - his mach has the verticle slid - he just cuts off with the turret
[20:17:09] <jthornton> rob_h, might have one as well
[20:17:27] <Nick001-Shop> has a switch at the bottom of the slide stroke with a screw to adjust for dia
[20:17:41] <kwallace> I would tend to create a Parting G code with a matching hal component to handle the logic.
[20:17:52] <jthornton> yea
[20:18:54] <Nick001-Shop> I found do I do a halpin true and it will wait for it to become true before retracting?
[20:19:55] <kwallace> Slide out until a timeout or sees the switch, then dwell a tiny bit, then retract.
[20:21:19] <Nick001-Shop> can I do that all in a M-- call or do I have to do a component?
[20:23:29] <jthornton> in a M1xx you can turn the output on, wait for the input then turn the output off
[20:25:26] <Nick001-Shop> can I have a g04 p1.0 as a line in the M1-- call
[20:30:53] <Nick001-Shop> Would this work?
[20:30:55] <Nick001-Shop> parport.0.pin-08 out true (advances slide)
[20:30:56] <Nick001-Shop> parport.0.pin-04 in true ( waiting for the switch to close)
[20:30:56] <Nick001-Shop> g04 p1.0 (dwells 1 sec)
[20:30:59] <Nick001-Shop> parport.0.pin-08 out false (retracts slide)
[20:30:59] <Nick001-Shop> g04 p2.0 (gives enough time for the slide to retacr before continuing on)
[20:31:00] <Nick001-Shop>
[20:31:32] <kwallace> There should be a g-code that holds an output until it sees an input.
[20:32:44] <Nick001-Shop> can you direct me to the integrator manual on that one?
[20:33:29] <kwallace> M66? http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gcode/m-code.html#_m66_wait_on_input_a_id_sec_m66_input_control_a
[20:35:53] <Nick001-Shop> thanks for all the input - will keep me busy the rest of the weekend - will be back if I get lost -)
[20:37:37] <kwallace> Bonne chance
[20:39:36] <kwallace> Classic Ladder, Python or other script could be used too.
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[20:54:29] <Nick001-Shop> Not up to the fancy stuff yet
[20:55:57] <JT-Shop> anyone know of a touchscreen calibration program for ubuntu?
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[21:07:29] <Tecan> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlLU9_IGymg
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[22:03:52] <L84Supper> JT-Shop: never used it but http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/xinput_calibrator
[22:04:43] <JT-Shop> L84Supper: thanks
[22:06:51] <JT-Shop> hmm it is already installed in Ubuntu
[22:07:53] <L84Supper> http://www.thefanclub.co.za/how-to/how-ubuntu-1104-touchscreen-calibration
[22:08:31] <L84Supper> I haven't used ubuntu in a while so I've lost track of where they hide the settings
[22:13:39] <DJ9DJ> gn8
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[22:32:40] <Aero-Tec> what is the best way to watch the value of a variable?
[22:33:00] <Aero-Tec> I could do MSG, but that is a pain
[22:33:23] <Aero-Tec> and have to keep hitting the x to get rid of it
[22:33:48] <Aero-Tec> is there a way to watch the value live?
[22:38:57] <andypugh> Aero-Tec: Halmeter. Sort-of
[22:39:14] <Aero-Tec> looked at that
[22:39:23] <Aero-Tec> how would you set it up
[22:39:47] <andypugh> Replace the MSG line with a M62(?) Analog-out, then Halmeter the analogout pin
[22:39:49] <Aero-Tec> I did not see where you could look at one variable or a group of them
[22:40:10] <Aero-Tec> cool
[22:40:37] <andypugh> M67 is the one: http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gcode/m-code.html#sec:M67-Analog-Output
[22:40:51] <Aero-Tec> would that give a value of over 1K?
[22:41:08] <Aero-Tec> from 0 to 1100
[22:41:17] <Aero-Tec> that is what I need
[22:41:17] <andypugh> Yeah, it's floating point. It will struggle above 10^324
[22:41:34] <Aero-Tec> analog output sounds limited
[22:41:40] <Aero-Tec> ok
[22:41:42] <Aero-Tec> cool
[22:41:44] <Aero-Tec> thanks
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[22:43:59] <Aero-Tec> looks like one need to reprogram HAL for it to work
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[22:47:18] <andypugh> No. You can just let the pin dangle and look at it with Halmeter
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[23:03:04] <Aero-Tec> andypugh: THANKS
[23:03:11] <Aero-Tec> that worked
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[23:12:52] <rob_h> jthornton, i might a?
[23:28:57] * icee attempts to persuade his dust collector to not vibrate-walk across the shop floor
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[23:37:06] <kwallace> I have a small compressor with two wheels on one end and a foot on the other. It would walk too. Until I placed a plastic 5 gal. pail lid under the foot. The foot now floats on the center of the lid which absorbs the vibration so the rim doesn't loose traction with the floor. So let it vibrate on squishy feet.
[23:38:13] <icee> i'm thinking of bolting it to a couple of 2x4's which would hopefully provide damping and a greater contact area
[23:38:15] <andypugh> "Squishy feet, I got those squishy feet...."
[23:39:25] <andypugh> Perhaps these would help? http://www.amazon.com/Acousti-AcoustiFeet-Anti-vibration-Case-Feet/dp/B003VREHJ4/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1355009929&sr=8-3
[23:40:05] * icee nods
[23:40:05] <icee> maybe
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[23:45:39] <kwallace> I have my three phase converter on four old BMW valve springs. It can rock a bit, but is much more quiet because the vibration doesn't get transmitted to the floor. Springs with rubber feet would be ideal.
[23:49:00] <kwallace> http://www.vibrationmounts.com/RFQ/VM05008A.htm
[23:51:51] <kwallace> http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-vibration-damping-mounts/=kibsm4
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[23:53:40] <kwallace> I have some of the McMaster style dampers too, but I'm waiting to run out of valve springs before I use them.