#linuxcnc | Logs for 2012-11-30

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[00:14:42] <JT-Shop> they are just gangsters in disquise
[00:15:08] <FinboySlick> JT-Shop: In my experience, they're not very good at the disguise part.
[00:15:17] <JT-Shop> LOL
[00:16:02] <FinboySlick> Now this is a real gangsta: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iygcpqKw0Yc#!
[00:16:11] <FinboySlick> (I quite enjoyed it)
[00:18:10] <JT-Shop> I don't watch youtube anymore since the ads started before the video
[00:18:39] <FinboySlick> JT-Shop: adblock gets rid of almost all of 'em if you're a firefox user.
[00:18:47] <PCW> addblock+
[00:18:48] <FinboySlick> I haven't seen a youtube ad in months.
[00:19:15] <FinboySlick> (I'm sure it works for other browsers too, I just use firefox)
[00:19:16] <JT-Shop> yea, I use firefox... forgot about adblock, does that work with the video ads?
[00:19:28] <FinboySlick> JT-Shop: Yes.
[00:21:01] * JT-Shop is installing it now
[00:21:16] * JT-Shop goes to check on the wood pile kitty
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[00:29:36] <JT-Shop> well crap I blocked the video
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[01:43:55] <RyanS> Are geckodrive stepper controllers good, or there is better available in that price range?
[01:44:41] <pfred1> geckos are competitive in their price range
[01:46:14] <Tom_itx> they're the best imo
[01:46:18] <Tom_itx> 203v
[01:46:21] <Tom_itx> is the shizzle
[01:46:41] <pfred1> they sure hold their value the best
[01:47:08] <RyanS> you certainly wouldn't call them 'cheapo' controllers?
[01:47:13] <pfred1> no way
[01:47:16] <Tom_itx> my only gripe is their connector but i think my wire was too big
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[01:47:26] <pfred1> but they are on the low side price wise for how they perform
[01:47:26] <Tom_itx> once i changed to 18Ga i've had no more problems
[01:47:36] <Tom_itx> 10 microstep
[01:47:45] <Tom_itx> idle shutdown
[01:47:49] <Tom_itx> steppers run cool
[01:47:54] <pfred1> you can pay more for a driver that doesn't spec quite as good
[01:47:58] <Tom_itx> 80v psu
[01:48:23] <Tom_itx> increased my ipm 4x fold over my old antiquated drivers
[01:48:49] <pfred1> 289s?
[01:49:01] <Tom_itx> steppers?
[01:49:04] <Tom_itx> something like that
[01:49:07] <pfred1> no drivers
[01:49:11] <Tom_itx> 203v
[01:49:24] <pfred1> oh i meant the driver IC
[01:49:30] <Tom_itx> i dunno
[01:49:45] <Tom_itx> whatever came with the original flashcutcnc kit
[01:49:48] <pfred1> mariss does some pretty sophisticated development to make his drivers
[01:49:58] <RyanS> is G540 microstepping? Doesn't appear to be
[01:50:06] <Tom_itx> it probably is
[01:50:09] <pfred1> all the gecokos microstep
[01:50:12] <Tom_itx> but it's 3 channel
[01:50:17] <PCW> 10 ustep
[01:50:18] <Tom_itx> check the pdf for sure
[01:50:33] <PCW> its just 4 g251s in a cage
[01:50:33] <RyanS> Native Resolution: 10 uStep (2000 PPR)?
[01:50:34] <Tom_itx> err 4 channel
[01:50:49] <pfred1> quite honestly I think you'd be hard pressed to find any stepper driver today that couldn't microstep
[01:51:29] <pfred1> single stepping is weird
[01:52:09] <pfred1> although don't some geckos change step modes on the fly depending on the speed you are going?
[01:52:25] <pfred1> like they have a built in translator
[01:52:33] <RyanS> does that even matter that much for woodwork/plastincs CNC router
[01:52:33] <Tom_itx> i think it's part of the builtin filtering
[01:52:46] <Tom_itx> i know it's smooth
[01:53:12] <pfred1> RyanS all steppers have a maximum speed they can go
[01:53:25] <pfred1> your driver can eek more out of a motor though
[01:53:28] <PCW> They don't change their ustep ratio but do change the drive waveform ...
[01:53:30] <PCW> ...
[01:53:57] <pfred1> yeah mariss works hard to get top performance
[01:54:26] <PCW> to more like a square wave (voltage) at high speeds
[01:54:35] <Tom_itx> mine in action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CEqokrtFI4&feature=youtu.be
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[01:55:33] <Tom_itx> another one with a simple test: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhU7S8kifJ4&feature=youtu.be
[01:55:43] <Tom_itx> just a box and a circle
[01:56:13] <RyanS> hmm thinking of getting a 2' x 4' CNC router kit.. but I'm in Australia, I don't know much is available
[01:56:30] <pfred1> RyanS you're closer to the far east than I am
[01:56:49] <pfred1> Tom_itx you have ball screws in that?
[01:58:15] <RyanS> does it make any difference if the machine itself is imperial measurements? can you just as easily run software in metric?
[01:58:21] <pfred1> RyanS the real secret is in the lead screws if you want good performance don't overlook them
[01:58:55] <pfred1> good lead screws can make junk motors and drivers perform well
[01:59:11] <RyanS> bbl
[01:59:12] <pfred1> but good motors and drivers are only going to be so so running junk lead screws
[02:00:03] <Tom_itx> pfred1 no
[02:00:20] <pfred1> Tom_itx wow impressive
[02:00:21] <Tom_itx> just cheap acme screws
[02:00:33] <Tom_itx> the original sherline junk
[02:00:38] <pfred1> dang it moves like ball screws
[02:00:48] <Tom_itx> 20tpi
[02:00:52] <pfred1> phew
[02:01:06] <pfred1> if it a milling machine or a micrometer?
[02:01:18] <pfred1> 20 TPI!
[02:01:23] <Tom_itx> :)
[02:01:35] <Tom_itx> 40000 steps per inch
[02:01:45] <pfred1> don't get ball screws the table will go flying right off it
[02:02:11] <pfred1> well that is great because you can still use the maching manually if you want to
[02:02:24] <pfred1> that is what sucks about ball screws on a mill
[02:02:48] <toastydeath> i always just added some gib lockdown and ballscrews worked fine
[02:03:08] <pfred1> toastydeath cutting steel?
[02:04:24] <pfred1> my mill laughs at most materials steel is another story though
[02:04:35] <pfred1> then things get real
[02:05:27] <toastydeath> never had a problem with any material
[02:05:30] <toastydeath> never cut any invar though
[02:06:16] <pfred1> I have a benchtop RF-32 so steel is its outer limit
[02:06:40] <pfred1> it can do it but I have to be pretty careful throughout the operation
[02:07:21] <toastydeath> i also suppose it depends on how good and what kind of gib lock you have
[02:07:29] <pfred1> speeds and feeds have to be spot on there is no margin
[02:07:54] <toastydeath> wat
[02:08:07] <toastydeath> if you're milling steel by hand go slow as balls and just crank hard
[02:08:41] <pfred1> if i don't run the right speed and feed cutting steel it just doesn't work right either a cutter will break or the work will be rough
[02:09:00] <pfred1> nah my machine i have to mill at 100 SFPM
[02:09:14] <pfred1> too slow bad too fast bad
[02:09:14] <toastydeath> that's bizarre
[02:09:35] <pfred1> well whitn some margin but as close as I can get to 100
[02:09:36] <toastydeath> I rough cut slow and hard, and then clean it up with light cuts at a quick rate
[02:09:47] <pfred1> yeah a light cut going faster is OK
[02:09:59] <toastydeath> I don't understand why you're shooting right for 100 sfm
[02:10:15] <pfred1> that is just where my machine operates best
[02:10:23] <pfred1> every machine has resonance
[02:10:35] <pfred1> mine just has more than its fair share
[02:10:39] <toastydeath> resonance is based on spindle speed, not relative linear speed
[02:10:54] <toastydeath> so it's weird that it works at 100 sfm no matter what cutter diameter, something else is going on.
[02:11:04] <pfred1> could be
[02:11:11] <pfred1> the columns on those machines are too weak
[02:11:26] <toastydeath> true
[02:11:53] <pfred1> I also lower the head as much as I can
[02:11:59] <pfred1> that helps a lot
[02:12:53] <pfred1> let's face it it is a sweet drill press and kind of a junky mill
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[02:25:27] <RyanS> so are ball screws more important on a mill than on a router
[02:26:09] <RyanS> if cutting wood & plastic
[02:26:29] <Tom_itx> either one if they're in the budget
[02:27:29] <pfred1> ball screws are 90% efficient
[02:27:44] <RyanS> can acme lead screws still be decent tho?
[02:27:45] <pfred1> acme is about 40%
[02:28:05] <pfred1> so you're doubling your performance
[02:28:28] <pfred1> that is a big bump
[02:29:26] <pfred1> plus ball screws usually have better TPI than other threads unless they're multistarts
[02:30:20] <RyanS> right so with ball screws, the actuators don't require as much torque because there is less friction ecause ?
[02:30:26] <pfred1> a lead screw running at 1,000 RPM is just kind of whacky no matter how you slice is
[02:31:10] <pfred1> and to get comparable speed out of a plain thread that is how fast you have to run it
[02:31:34] <pfred1> for a rounter don't overlook using timing belts
[02:31:47] <pfred1> router even
[02:32:14] <Tom_itx> seems most of the repraps use belts
[02:32:18] <pfred1> I have 10 TPI acme and one step on my maching is something like 0.00013 of an inch
[02:32:20] <RyanS> Timing belts are used with rack and pinion?
[02:32:46] <pfred1> heck I can breathe on it and it'd move more than that
[02:33:53] <pfred1> the thing is you can trade accuracy you can't use for speed that you can
[02:34:15] <RyanS> You can knock it down with a feather
[02:34:47] <pfred1> at some point in your build usuallally after you've invested too much work and money a lot of this becomes clear
[02:35:52] <pfred1> realistically it is tough to run a lead screw over 800 RPM
[02:35:59] <pfred1> it is tough on the screw
[02:36:03] <RyanS> why can't you use all the accuracy
[02:36:30] <pfred1> the spindle has more run out than that
[02:36:58] <pfred1> you can't see stuff that small!
[02:37:00] <RyanS> For a hobbyist does it matter if maching something takes 20 minutes instead of 10?
[02:37:33] <pfred1> it matters if everything takes twice as long
[02:38:43] <pfred1> right now I'm lucky if I can run 72 IPM
[02:39:03] <pfred1> would i like to be able to go twice that fast? you bet!
[02:39:51] <RyanS> so is it unrealistic for this to do 200 IPM http://www.cncrouterparts.com/crp2448-2-x-4-cnc-router-kit-p-164.html ?
[02:40:22] <RyanS> Considering you're not going to cuttig metal
[02:40:59] <pfred1> the way the motor is mounted there is somehting funky going on there
[02:41:07] <pfred1> could be rack and pinion
[02:41:42] <RyanS> acme on that one.... R&P for the larger models
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[02:42:23] <pfred1> then why is the X axis motor mounted under the gantry?
[02:42:43] <pfred1> or is that the Y axis motor?
[02:42:48] <RyanS> Maybe they use both?
[02:43:39] <pfred1> all I'm saying is be aware that some things can set you up for performance limitations and they're not always apparent
[02:43:55] <pfred1> good motors and drivers are nice but they're not always the whole story
[02:44:21] <RyanS> yeah.. true
[02:44:31] <pfred1> never really your linear slides and actuaters play a large role in machine performance
[02:45:09] <pfred1> but geckos are great drivers
[02:45:33] <pfred1> I've seen folks use them to overcome some other design deficiencies
[02:46:22] <pfred1> think about your power supply carefully too
[02:46:41] <pfred1> if you can dump 80V into a gecko when go for it
[02:46:47] <pfred1> then go for it even
[02:46:58] <Tom_itx> i doubled what i had but not 80v
[02:47:08] <Tom_itx> i found surplus stuff cheap and went for it
[02:47:16] <pfred1> well that has to do with inductive reluctance
[02:47:37] <pfred1> the coils in stepper motors are well they're coils
[02:47:54] <Tom_itx> you've probably seen my updated supply
[02:47:56] <pfred1> so it takes voltage to overcome their reluctance
[02:48:11] <RyanS> hmm do you think a CNC router would work fine to do dovetail joins etc as well as the releifs people seem to do with them?
[02:48:15] <pfred1> the more volts you got the more you can push them around
[02:48:39] <Tom_itx> i still wouldn't push 80v even though they say they will
[02:48:56] <pfred1> heh yeah probably not but higher volts is a big plus with steppers
[02:49:17] <Tom_itx> i knew that going into it
[02:49:18] <pfred1> the faster the motor runs the less time you have to dump current into them
[02:49:35] <pfred1> so the higher the volts you're running the more you can get in
[02:49:40] <Tom_itx> that was probably a big part of my performance gain
[02:49:46] <pfred1> oh it is huge
[02:50:01] <pfred1> you can't fight physics
[02:50:54] <pfred1> you ever put an ammeter on your stepper motor?
[02:51:05] <pfred1> the faster it runs the less current it draws
[02:51:13] <pfred1> it is totally asinine
[02:51:43] <RyanS> physics is culturally relative according to a joke article.. so physics is completely subjective :P
[02:51:56] <pfred1> not to a stepper motor it isn't
[02:53:31] <Tom_itx> so if you were gonna set the current drive on a stepper you would do it at idle?
[02:53:56] <Tom_itx> provided the driver doesn't have idle current shutdown
[02:54:07] <Tom_itx> which the geckos have btw
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[02:54:35] <RyanS> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokal_affair read this if you get a chance, was hilarious
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[02:58:44] <pfred1> Tom_itx yes a stepper draws the most current holding
[02:58:58] <pfred1> which is why they have idle circuits in drivers
[02:59:13] <r00t4rd3d> in a pinch I used some high temp bearing grease for thermal grease on my CPU :/
[02:59:46] <pfred1> r00t4rd3d some substances can break down IC cases
[02:59:57] <pfred1> I'd imagine grease might be one of those materials that can too
[03:00:15] <r00t4rd3d> its only on my heatsink top of cpu
[03:00:23] <r00t4rd3d> i used a pea sized drop
[03:00:40] <pfred1> reputable IC manufacturers always recommend what thermal compounds they warrant their products for use with
[03:00:53] <pfred1> lists are never long either
[03:01:13] <r00t4rd3d> ill get some artic silver tomorrow at radio shack
[03:01:15] <pfred1> I forget but there are like two that are industry standard
[03:01:40] <pfred1> artic silver isn't one of them either :)
[03:02:06] <r00t4rd3d> i cleaned my heat sinks and fans, used bearing grease and my temps are almost -10 lower
[03:03:25] <pfred1> I have heard of people scraping hardened compound off but really the stuff is only on there to take up pores
[03:03:39] <pfred1> so even solid it should still work
[03:04:35] <r00t4rd3d> i left the old hardened stuff on and i had to scrape it off, my fans spun way up when i powered up
[03:04:52] <pfred1> yeah no once you break the bond you have t oclean and replace
[03:05:14] <r00t4rd3d> i knew that but tried anyway cause i got no thermal grease on hand
[03:05:49] <pfred1> when I used to apply paste building boards commercially we'd spread the greast on cardboard then wipe the parts on the cardboard
[03:06:31] <pfred1> thing is you want a really thin film just to fill up any microscopic pores the heatsink and part may have
[03:07:19] <pfred1> we did power transistors TO-220 packages but the theory is the same
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[03:08:39] <pfred1> you can get tubes of thermal paste at radio shack
[03:08:47] <pfred1> it ain't the greatest but it beats axle grease
[03:09:09] <r00t4rd3d> yeah they sell artic silver
[03:09:14] <r00t4rd3d> thats good stuff
[03:09:47] <r00t4rd3d> for a cpu/heatsink
[03:10:00] <pfred1> my tube just says heatsink compound on it
[03:10:13] <r00t4rd3d> made in china?
[03:11:26] <pfred1> tandy corp fort worth texas
[03:11:34] <Tom_itx> the best
[03:11:50] <r00t4rd3d> so yeah china
[03:12:00] <pfred1> part number 276-1372
[03:12:17] <pfred1> it is rat shack house brand
[03:12:27] <jdh> they also package it differently and sell it as baby food and hemmohroid cream.
[03:12:53] <pfred1> no it is the white stuff lifeguards put on their noses I think
[03:14:36] <pfred1> we had the pro stuff at the board house I worked at it came in quart cans
[03:15:00] <pfred1> I'd dole it out with a putty scraper
[03:15:36] <pfred1> a little dab will do ya for hundreds of transistors!
[03:17:38] <pfred1> apparently robert plant was in the town next door to me today
[03:20:33] <pfred1> DJ's BLDC motor driver board is the background picture for the PCB page too
[03:20:54] <djdelorie> well, part of it at least :-)
[03:21:11] <pfred1> djdelorie am I the only person who ever noticed?
[03:21:31] <djdelorie> you're the only one who mentioned it out of the blue at least...
[03:21:44] <pfred1> good looking board
[03:21:51] <djdelorie> thanks! All hand routed, too
[03:22:43] <pfred1> I need to give PCB another shot
[03:23:21] <djdelorie> it definitely has a learning curve, but you can do great things with it after that...
[03:23:49] <pfred1> well last time I tried it it crashed on step 3 of some tutorial I was trying to work through
[03:24:43] <pfred1> which is frustrating if I really need to make a board
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[04:01:08] <RyanS> whats generally the most important property of the materials used to construct the frame and gantry of a CNC router, ie axial strength, shear strength etc? I'm thinking MDF versus aluminium.
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[04:04:43] <L84Supper> what's the delta on the properties for MDF, 100-200% depending on the maker and resin used?
[04:05:34] <RyanS> ahh I didn't think of that.. The variables of the manufacture
[04:08:23] <RyanS> Could you expect more rigidity out of the machine with a good design in aluminium than you would MDF? (Although I wouldn't be surprised if there is not much difference)
[04:12:20] <pfred1> biggest problem with MDF would be absorbing moisture
[04:12:41] <pfred1> aluminum is generally nicer for precision work
[04:13:01] <pfred1> people love their 8020
[04:13:31] <L84Supper> does anyone make MDF t-slot?
[04:13:37] <RyanS> yeah the machine would probably end up out of alignment if the MDF expands or contracts
[04:13:42] <L84Supper> or even bamboo?
[04:14:13] <RyanS> granite is the best material for CNC :)
[04:14:22] <L84Supper> lets say you sealed the MDF with a urethane
[04:14:36] <RyanS> those granite machines are crazy
[04:14:44] <pfred1> then you'd have HDF
[04:14:54] <pfred1> High Density Fiberboard
[04:15:14] <L84Supper> not saturated with urethane
[04:15:38] <pfred1> I use this stuff called wood hardener on dry rotted wood it is amazing
[04:15:40] <L84Supper> just a 100microns thick on the surface
[04:15:53] <pfred1> I think it is just thinned out finerblass resin
[04:15:59] <pfred1> fiberglass even
[04:16:23] <L84Supper> does it have any fiber in it? or is it just the liquid resin?
[04:16:32] <pfred1> it is like acetone
[04:16:39] <pfred1> really thin
[04:16:46] <pfred1> soaks right into the wood
[04:17:22] <pfred1> the worse off the wood is the better it works
[04:17:57] <pfred1> I bet MDF would soak it up like a sponge though
[04:18:03] <L84Supper> probably a low viscosity monomer and oligomer blend, self crosslinking or is it two part?
[04:18:13] <pfred1> one part no hardener
[04:18:23] <L84Supper> acrylated
[04:18:27] <pfred1> that is the strange part it does go bad really fast once you open the can
[04:18:38] <pfred1> like you have to use it right away
[04:18:53] <pfred1> don't try to save any just use it
[04:19:12] <L84Supper> might just be an acrylic in acetone
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[04:20:22] <L84Supper> if you let it sit out, what is left for residue after the vehicle evaporates?
[04:20:58] <pfred1> the can is small mouthed but I think it is like chunky clear crystals if memory serves
[04:21:17] <pfred1> been a while since i let any go bad on me
[04:21:37] <pfred1> stuff is fairly expensive
[04:21:51] <L84Supper> heh, nice profit margin
[04:22:03] <L84Supper> really cheap to make
[04:22:08] <RyanS> do you think this has any rigidity issues? :P http://www.dailycnc.eu/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/439.jpg
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[04:22:15] <pfred1> well if you got rotten wood some woodwork is expensive too
[04:22:53] <pfred1> last time i used it I used it to save the back of a garden bench it'd have been a pain for me to replace that wood
[04:22:58] <L84Supper> is that made of styrofoam with a faux granite finish?
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[04:24:16] <L84Supper> pfred1: you could try using a single part urethane wood finish but thin it with acetone and save $$
[04:24:19] <RyanS> I'm sure that's exactly what itis
[04:24:29] <pfred1> the bench in the back http://i.imgur.com/lt6hi.jpg
[04:24:56] <r00t4rd3d> http://i.imgur.com/8SsJ2.jpg
[04:25:01] <pfred1> L84Supper this stuff is more expensive than paint
[04:25:45] <L84Supper> pfred1: fancy label
[04:25:56] <RyanS> balsa wood cnc..... There is an idea :P
[04:26:12] <pfred1> can't get good balsa wood anymore
[04:26:33] <pfred1> I have some vintage balsa wood
[04:27:21] <RyanS> So you need to make a vintage model aircraft with a valve radio transmitter
[04:28:05] <pfred1> they chopped doen all the good balsa trees about 20 years ago
[04:28:21] <L84Supper> I didn't do it
[04:28:41] <pfred1> balsa wood I see in hobby stores is nothing like the old stuff
[04:29:54] <pfred1> that old balsa wood was like balsa wood :)
[04:30:05] <RyanS> Are you being sarcastic
[04:30:20] <pfred1> the new stuff is stiffer but a lot heavier
[04:31:15] <RyanS> So your old wood is not stiff
[04:31:24] <pfred1> people must have been freaks for building model planes years ago
[04:31:57] <RyanS> Although sometimes there isn't a place for a stiff wood
[04:32:02] <pfred1> RyanS my old balsa wood is very soft
[04:33:12] <RyanS> Are they going this fast because it's essentially just engraving? http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=o4fL-czA1sY&NR=1
[04:33:53] <pfred1> they're going that fast because they can
[04:34:08] <L84Supper> or just in a hurry
[04:35:06] <RyanS> I just thought the the depth of cut being very low....
[04:35:40] <pfred1> 1000IPM is a nice speed for rapid travel
[04:37:45] <pfred1> this guy is twice as fast http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zop1z9RNsyQ
[04:38:48] <RyanS> cool
[04:40:13] <RyanS> do you think an 80/20 extrusion based router is one of the better options for kits?
[04:40:44] <pfred1> it is popular
[04:41:22] <RyanS> the Spice Girls were popular too...
[04:42:16] <pfred1> a lot of people do great stuff with 8020 but I've seen it abused too
[04:42:38] <pfred1> seen people stack the stuff up like it is cordwood or something
[04:44:45] <RyanS> It's going to be pretty rigid if its designed well, compared to say L profile
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[04:48:11] <pfred1> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7FDMeA0iLw
[04:50:03] <pfred1> I am partial to joe's design out of a lot of the ones I've seen floating around
[04:50:37] <pfred1> if you're going to go the 8020 route you can do worse I think
[04:53:39] <RyanS> this thing looks like a beast.. Check out how much steel reinforcement and bolts: http://www.kronosrobotics.com/krmx02/index.shtml
[04:56:42] <tjb1> Did anyone see the "Burn Table" water jet?
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[05:16:21] <RyanS> Anyone tried this particular spindle? http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1-5KW-WATER-COOLED-SPINDLE-MOTOR-ER16-VFD-DRIVE-INVERTER-80mm-Diameter-/251002725012?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a70eda294
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[05:27:26] <L84Supper> http://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/cnc-spindle/1500-milling-spindle
[05:30:03] <RyanS> Are they better for the purpose than getting a retail hand-held router
[05:30:46] <L84Supper> water cooled vs air cooled
[05:31:20] <RyanS> apart from that not a huge difference?
[05:31:57] <L84Supper> power is power
[05:32:17] <L84Supper> it comes down to the durability and precision of the bearings
[05:32:47] <L84Supper> with water cooling you can keep the temp lower for longer MTBF
[05:33:49] <RyanS> It seems like a pretty good price and includes the VFD
[05:34:19] <L84Supper> consistency might be a problem with the water cooled spindle, QC is generally the issue, just hope you get a good one from the start
[05:35:40] <L84Supper> even the guy at automation technologies has had issues with getting consistent products
[05:38:03] <RyanS> hmm so is the variable frequency controller like an AC phase angle controller used for heating elements?
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[06:55:02] <Loetmichel> mornin'
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[07:23:37] <Jymmm> cradek: SWPadnos archivist pcw_home alex_joni You guys and your fancy motor drivers... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQcg4nBlVMk&feature=youtu.be
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[07:59:08] <DJ9DJ> moin
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[08:00:55] <Jymmm> Use coupon THX12 at checkout to get FREE ground shipping and SAVE 10% off all motor controls! http://www.geckodrive.com/
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[13:36:55] <jthornton> http://www.connecticuthackerspace.com/content/emc2-keyboard-shortcut-labels
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[15:41:46] <Theta9> i was going to get a g540, but now that i look at the price of mesa cards
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[15:42:07] <Theta9> i could get 5I25 and 7I78 for cheaper than the g540
[15:42:17] <Theta9> what do you guys think?
[15:42:24] <JT-Shop> g540's do have some issues
[15:42:53] <Theta9> the EPP stuff?
[15:45:27] <pcw_home> The 5I25 _will_ drive the G540 chargepump if thats an issue
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[15:46:31] <Theta9> ahh the 5I25 + 7I76/8 is not a complete system, still need heavy motor drivers in ther
[15:47:08] <pcw_home> The 7I76/7I78 are just (glorified) breakouts
[15:47:37] <pcw_home> you still need step motor drive
[15:48:06] <Theta9> can you recommend something?
[15:48:08] <pcw_home> but the 5I25 will drive the G540 directly
[15:48:26] <Theta9> so will a regular parallel port
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[15:48:38] <pcw_home> not at 100 KHz
[15:49:12] <Theta9> can the g540 even operate outside the realm of pc parallel ports?
[15:49:33] <pcw_home> absolutely
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[15:51:46] <pcw_home> It depends of course on what is limiting max speed but we have customers that
[15:51:48] <pcw_home> have seen 40% to 100% speed improvements when going to a hardware step generator
[15:54:45] <pcw_home> This is for 2 main reasons:
[15:54:47] <pcw_home> 1. There is no practical upper bound on step rate
[15:54:48] <pcw_home> 2. step rates have lower jitter
[15:54:50] <pcw_home> (if you are running the software stepgen at 1/2 full speed the jitter is 50%!)
[15:54:53] <Theta9> so the g540 is the recommended driver?
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[15:56:37] <pcw_home> Really depends on your motors and expectations (I think the G640 is 3.5A and 50V max)
[15:56:52] <pcw_home> g540 I mean
[15:57:34] <Theta9> currently my setup uses a cheap chinese controller and a 24v power supply
[15:57:39] <Theta9> ;D
[15:58:55] <pcw_home> So thats likely your bottle neck and a parallel port and decent MB may be more than it can handle anyway
[16:01:20] <Theta9> alright, i'll get the g540
[16:06:42] <pcw_home> That would be a good first step (though you will want a 48V PS)
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[16:09:32] <IchGuckLive> Hi all B)
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[17:43:29] <andypugh> I have done it again. Why do things always look smaller on eBay?
[17:43:49] <archivist> waht waht
[17:45:16] <andypugh> A job lot of tooling. I thought it was 30 and 40, but it is 40 and 50. A mix of BT and INT, with a few HSK thrown in.
[17:46:44] <archivist> 50 is not small :) I have a 50 sized probe here
[17:47:42] <andypugh> The big one at the end is a BT50. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SELECTION-OF-LATHE-TOOL-HOLDERS-33-IN-TOTAL-/140889925131?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&nma=true&si=PQpYFLIAvsBr4Fk6DPdQbZ4pUy4%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc
[17:48:45] <andypugh> They are probably worth £1 each just as high quality steel blanks.
[17:48:51] <archivist> he had a yard rule in the picture!
[17:49:13] <andypugh> Yes, I failed to scale it.
[17:49:31] <cradek> I don't remember noticing the yardstick either, haha
[17:49:44] <andypugh> There is a Lushinton boring head (though not in great shape) in there.
[17:51:22] <andypugh> I suspect that I could put them all back on eBay for a profit.
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[18:02:17] <andypugh> So, does anyone see anything they like the look of? It is all ex Landrover tooling, and somewhat specialised.
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[18:03:59] <IchGuckLive> Hi all B9
[18:04:04] <archivist> my horizontal is size 35 an in between sod
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[18:15:01] <IchGuckLive> archivist: and what is the problem with that
[18:15:42] <archivist> IchGuckLive, have you ever seen iso35 for sale
[18:16:22] <IchGuckLive> archivist: d you got a DIN number
[18:17:03] <archivist> they did not have din numbers in 1945
[18:17:06] <IchGuckLive> Natural Rubber is iso 35
[18:17:44] <IchGuckLive> dandelion is also iso 35
[18:17:47] <archivist> you come in the channel and jump in without working out what we are talking about
[18:18:09] <IchGuckLive> there is no talk so i waited 5min befor i asked
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[18:29:46] <tjb1> Calm down fellas
[18:30:24] * archivist throws a bukket over tjb1 :)
[18:30:41] <tjb1> Whats a bukket? :P
[18:30:44] <tjb1> We only have buckets
[18:35:41] <andypugh> So, you have an indeterminate tapir?
[18:36:32] <andypugh> (the Motor Club always use the phrase "morose tapir" to describe the ends of some drills :-)
[18:38:25] <archivist> the last tapir http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/Tables/Clarkson1.htm
[18:38:33] <L84Supper> what's everyone's favorite tool for cutting thick aluminum t-slot and bar up to 1/2" (12mm) ?
[18:39:12] <L84Supper> without having to clean up the ends with a mill or a mess of wax/lube before welding
[18:40:01] <L84Supper> 12" non-ferrous titanium circular saw?
[18:40:19] <andypugh> archivist: BT35 exists: http://www.tools-n-gizmos.com/specs/Tapers.html
[18:40:28] <tjb1> L84Supper: http://www.northerntool.com/images/product/images/39419_lg.jpg
[18:41:17] <andypugh> L84Supper: I use the only tool I have. And that is my cordless circular saw.
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[18:41:41] <L84Supper> tjb1: what blade?
[18:41:45] <andypugh> (with the original wood blade)
[18:41:53] <archivist> andypugh, I am making (slowly) an adapter so I can use 30 size
[18:42:12] <tjb1> L84Supper: Thats a saw made to cut metal, its a Dewalt 14" multicutter
[18:42:32] <tjb1> http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_48565_48565
[18:43:08] <tjb1> Blades for it are ~$100
[18:43:13] <andypugh> There are a few of them now. The only real difference is that the blades have nubs so you can't cut too much per tooth.
[18:44:14] <andypugh> Nothing like that expensive: http://www.screwfix.com/p/evolution-rage-multipurpose-blade-210mm/58779
[18:45:21] <andypugh> You can have the whole tool for £100: http://www.screwfix.com/p/evolution-rage3b2101-210mm-compound-mitre-saw-110v/30069
[18:46:04] <IchGuckLive> andypugh: this saw are going cheepper and chepper
[18:46:22] <andypugh> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4TbyNlsUWs
[18:46:23] <tjb1> Silly pounds and metric...
[18:46:54] <tjb1> andypugh: thats only a 8.25 blade
[18:47:06] <tjb1> The dewalt uses a 14"
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[18:47:17] <andypugh> And the requirement was to cut 1/2" / 12mm material?
[18:47:22] <L84Supper> I'm looking to buy or build something with a adjustable digital end stop
[18:47:35] <tjb1> andypugh: hush :)
[18:48:09] <tjb1> If you are going to spend that money for the saw, might as well get a bigger one
[18:48:37] <archivist> I believe my tinitus dates from the 1970's and DeWalt over arm saw and aluminium cutting
[18:48:49] <L84Supper> heh
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[18:49:02] <archivist> 20" blade iirc
[18:49:29] <andypugh> L84Supper: Digital micrometer heads exist: http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/displayProduct.jsp?sku=1667320&CMP=KNC-GUK-FUK-GEN-LISTINGS&gross_price=true&mckv=MGdGvzqH%7Cpcrid%7Cproductlistings
[18:50:06] <L84Supper> the Bosch t-slot disti uses a glorified 12" compound miter
[18:50:31] <L84Supper> andypugh: what will they think of next?
[18:50:32] <andypugh> But it would be significantly cheaper to buy a complete micrrometer and cut some off
[18:51:03] <L84Supper> I seem to be 7 pub hours behind you :)
[18:51:35] <andypugh> Not been anywhere near alcohol for night-on 14 hours!
[18:52:04] <L84Supper> nevermind then
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[19:00:02] <andypugh> Which is the taper with a semi-cylindrical slot in the side?
[19:01:35] <toastyde1th> are you talking about on a shank or for lathe tooling
[19:01:54] <andypugh> On the shank.
[19:02:00] <IchGuckLive> lathe its VDI or HSK
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[19:02:33] <toastyde1th> like, on an endmill?
[19:02:38] <andypugh> No, not those. Like a BT / CAT / NMTB / ISO but with a slot in the taper
[19:02:46] <toastyde1th> weird, i don't know sorry
[19:03:42] <archivist> cam lock, brown and sharpe iirc
[19:03:55] <toastyde1th> ohhhh
[19:04:03] <IchGuckLive> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgiS54jd6WA
[19:04:20] <archivist> I have an example upstairs
[19:04:39] <toastyde1th> can you take a pic
[19:04:52] <toastyde1th> several screw machines and second op lathes have that kind of tooling and they're all semi-proprietary
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[19:07:00] <archivist> this is a head with the fitting http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/cincinnati-milacron-kearney-trecker-vn-usa-heavy-iron/new-accessory-my-brown-sharpe-2-mill-222480/
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[19:07:58] <toastyde1th> wow, no idea
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[19:08:17] <andypugh> toastyde1th: The very bottom one here: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SELECTION-OF-LATHE-TOOL-HOLDERS-33-IN-TOTAL-/140889925131
[19:09:32] <toastyde1th> yeah, i've seen a lot of different types of tapers but never that one
[19:10:00] <andypugh> "Flash change" apparently
[19:13:44] <mrsun> archivist, oo scraped surfaces =)
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[19:14:58] <archivist> andypugh, that looks a little different to the taper I know (and have used)
[19:16:33] <archivist> that seems to have some tang, there is no space for that in the BS socket here
[19:17:22] <andypugh> From reading, it seems that Flash Change 30 had no tang, but the 40 size could also be used in 40INT machines.
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[19:19:10] <archivist> what I have here is a No 9 BS to 30 2" (as stamped)
[19:19:47] <andypugh> The good thing about standards is that there are so many of them....
[19:20:08] <toastyde1th> hahah xkcd
[19:20:18] <toastyde1th> "There are 15 standards! We need ONE STANDARD!"
[19:20:24] <toastyde1th> "New problem: there are 16 standards."
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[19:29:29] <archivist> the holder I have http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2012/2012_11_30_Buck_Hickman/
[19:33:57] <toastyde1th> that looks like a b&s toolholder for a single spindle screw machine
[19:34:21] <toastyde1th> but it's clearly not, given what it goes to
[19:35:25] <archivist> we had some of the endmills at the museum I used to volunteer at as we had a BS universal mill
[19:35:44] <archivist> buggers to get out sometimes
[19:39:01] <archivist> ew there is a thiel near me on ebay
[19:39:18] <archivist> 121029756238
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[19:47:23] <andypugh> archivist: Is Santa feeling generous?
[19:48:24] <archivist> I wish
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[19:50:22] <archivist> must nag a certain customer....
[19:58:01] <pcw_home> That looks like a pretty stout mill
[20:00:43] <andypugh> Thiel / Deckel / Aciera are all very lovely. They gain a fair bit of rigidity from using a sliding head for Y.
[20:01:23] <andypugh> And you will see that you are expected to stand to the side of the bed, not in front of it.
[20:01:33] <archivist> lazy seller 271110798037
[20:02:49] <andypugh> That's one like mine, but without the vertical head.
[20:04:05] <andypugh> I don't entirely understand the vertical slide (double-V)
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[20:09:09] <archivist> I thought it was normal square ways on the vertical
[20:10:22] <andypugh> No, two Vs. Guaranteed never to quite work.
[20:10:43] <toastyde1th> difficult to scrape in but common on older, accurate machines
[20:11:02] <toastyde1th> ground double v's dont often work, scaped isn't usually a problem
[20:14:15] <archivist> my southbend has double v and I know it needs lotso work
[20:14:22] <toastyde1th> oh, yeah
[20:14:42] <toastyde1th> deckel is known as a pretty accurate brand, they were for pretty much the same amount of work no matter what they did
[20:15:02] <toastyde1th> southebend? not so much.
[20:15:03] <archivist> I think its low by 10 thou or more in the worn section
[20:15:08] <toastyde1th> haha jesus
[20:15:26] <archivist> just works though :)
[20:16:43] <archivist> I think I would have to add metal to the saddle before I started on it
[20:17:12] <toastyde1th> ususally what people do is scrape the saddle down to flat, scrape the bed flat, and then take whatever amount the drop was off the head and tailstock
[20:17:22] <toastyde1th> rather than try to shim or add stock and muck the whole deal up
[20:18:08] <archivist> if I took too much off the saddle then I might not match up to the leadscrew
[20:18:45] <toastyde1th> apron isn't in two parts?
[20:19:05] <toastyde1th> if you can't break the saddle and apron apart, you're boned
[20:19:23] <andypugh> Eccentric leadscrew bearings.
[20:20:08] <archivist> but should I rework the Schaublin instead when I have the time
[20:20:17] <archivist> about as worn
[20:21:20] <archivist> or just live with the errors and fiddle as needed
[20:22:04] <andypugh> A lathe needs to be pretty far-gone for it to actually matter.
[20:23:37] <archivist> very true, the southbend produces nice taper work as is
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[20:27:33] <archivist> baby southbend in kent 121028903874
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[20:33:05] <andypugh> Sweet. But I like my left-hand unsinged. US-pattern lathes are silly.
[20:37:10] <archivist> hmm time I painted mine all over, http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2012/2012_06_15_Adcock_Shipley/IMG_1251.JPG
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[20:51:10] <JT-Shop> damn laptop battery died after only 6 months... cheap china crap
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[20:58:02] <L84Supper> JT-Shop: what brand laptop?
[20:58:10] <JT-Shop> hp
[20:58:27] <JT-Shop> dv2000
[20:59:12] <L84Supper> a few years ago they were the only batteries not recalled for spontaneous combustion
[21:00:41] <L84Supper> I had a HP notebook back then that worked great until I did a BIOS update, then the batteries started dying
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[21:18:19] <Loetmichel> coincidence?
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[22:20:24] <DJ9DJ> gn8
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[22:45:08] <r00t4rd3d> http://www.wired.com/autopia/2012/11/hirobo-hx-1/
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