#linuxcnc | Logs for 2012-11-28

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[00:04:05] <andypugh> I have never seen a non belt-driven washing machine.
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[01:22:43] <Tom_itx> andypugh, those were popular in Au. i'm not sure where else they were sold
[01:23:11] <andypugh> I see a number of direct-drive washing machines on eBay
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[01:24:11] <Tom_itx> i think the F&P were probably the originals
[01:25:36] <Tom_itx> i'm not entirely sure but i think someone posted a link to a mill conversion using those or something similar
[01:26:13] <andypugh> http://www.partmaster.co.uk/cgi-bin/product.pl?PID=2271604&query=LG%20F1256QD&model=F1256QD&path=66991,111341:79178
[01:26:14] <andypugh> and
[01:26:14] <andypugh> http://www.partmaster.co.uk/cgi-bin/product.pl?PID=2271508&query=LG%20F1256QD%20stator&model=F1256QD&path=66991,111341:79178
[01:26:49] <andypugh> So, £80 for a large, high-torque motor. Seems really rather reasonable.
[01:27:19] <Tom_itx> or pull em outta old washers
[01:27:23] <Tom_itx> if you have a source
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[01:30:02] <andypugh> I had a source in Sheffield, I am not sure about here.
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[01:37:25] <roh> too bad there is no consumer usecase for backlash free gearboxes ;)
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[01:48:56] <andypugh> Aye, it is rather.
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[01:54:25] <MercuryRising> I've been playing with my 305 oz-in steppers for a while, but I haven't been able to get microstepping working (the motors simply won't drive, even in microsteppings as low as 2). They just hiss at me. Without microstepping, I can get both motors to work (only testing two at the moment). I'm going to guess this is because my max jitter on both the base thread and the servo thread are ~500,000 ns, which is pretty bad
[01:54:50] <icee> there'd be plenty of consumer usecases for backlash free gearboxes if you could make them cheap enough
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[01:54:53] <icee> :P
[01:55:29] <icee> MercuryRising: have you tried moving them very slowly?
[01:55:33] <MercuryRising> looking at the list on linuxcnc's website, my machine (AMD Athlon 2800 XP+, 2 GHZ, 1 gig of ram, 40 gig hdd, dedicated video) it should be in about the 50k ns range, but for some reason it's getting destroyed. I got all the ubuntu updates, but that didn't change anything
[01:55:52] <icee> MercuryRising: because jitter isn't going to stop them from turning
[01:56:06] <MercuryRising> Yes, the only time i can get movement is when i set the leadscrew pitch low (1-10) and velocity < 1 in/s, and accel at ~1 in/s2
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[01:56:15] <MercuryRising> anything higher than that and they're locking up
[01:56:32] <icee> MercuryRising: if you don't change -anything- in the osftware from what works without microstepping
[01:56:38] <icee> then set the microstepping to 2 in your drive
[01:56:44] <icee> they should still turn, but half as fast
[01:56:54] <icee> that is, the same pulse generation will result in half the movement
[01:56:57] <icee> if that doesn't work
[01:57:02] <MercuryRising> alright, trying that now
[01:57:14] <icee> you have some kind of problem-- with motor wiring or your drive microstepping
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[01:57:19] <PCW> if they just hiss its more likely that you moved the wrong jumper...
[01:58:04] <MercuryRising> they hiss when i try to jog them
[01:58:27] <MercuryRising> icee - that didn't work, they sound like a harddrive seeking with no movement
[01:58:51] <icee> MercuryRising: you have the phases of the motors hooked up properly, right?
[01:58:57] <MercuryRising> yes, i believe so
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[01:59:15] <MercuryRising> they drive when i have 1/1 microstepping enabled, but not with anything more
[01:59:28] <icee> because sometimes if you wire things 1A 2A 1B 2B when it should be 1A 1B 2A 2B ... it will "work"
[01:59:33] <icee> without microstepping
[01:59:44] <icee> depending on details of how your drive is constructed
[02:00:30] <MercuryRising> it's a hobbycnc drive, and i bought the motor from them and used the wiring they suggested
[02:00:43] <icee> I dunno. You're moving the wrong jumper / your drive isn't working for microstepping / something is wired wrong
[02:01:23] <icee> MercuryRising: so.. the parallel port drives step and direction pins.. the direction says forward or back.. and the step pin toggles to move the rdive
[02:01:39] <icee> with microstepping on, each toggle tells the drive to move the motor half as far
[02:01:49] <icee> or 1/nth as far, depending on how many microsteps
[02:02:02] <icee> but you're not having it move at all so..
[02:02:02] <roh> sure the timings are correct?
[02:02:32] <MercuryRising> the timings on the setup page of the stepcnc configuration?
[02:02:39] <roh> steptime, step space, direction hold and direction setup
[02:02:40] <roh> yes
[02:02:52] <icee> he has a point
[02:03:02] <icee> they're most likely OK because.. the same configuration works without microstepping
[02:03:06] <icee> but if they were just slightly unacceptable..
[02:03:18] <roh> well.. no.. for microstepping your timings need to be smaller
[02:03:28] <roh> since more steps need to fit into the same time
[02:03:30] <MercuryRising> yeah that's why i'm confused, i figured it was from the poor performance on the latency test that would make microstepping not work
[02:03:31] <icee> roh: I told him to leave the same config and see if the thing turned half as fast
[02:03:38] <icee> with 2 step microstepping on the drive
[02:03:42] <icee> he said no
[02:04:00] <roh> icee: if the timings are so long that 2 steps look like one for the drive...
[02:04:09] <icee> roh: I told him to not change his EMC configuration
[02:04:13] <icee> roh: and change the jumper on the drive board.
[02:04:27] <icee> the signal that worked without microstepping to move at (say) 5 in/min doesn't move the thing at 2.5 in/min
[02:04:30] <icee> it moves it at 0 in/min
[02:04:51] <roh> i use those:
[02:04:52] <roh> setp stepgen.0.steplen 1
[02:04:52] <roh> setp stepgen.0.stepspace 0
[02:04:52] <roh> setp stepgen.0.dirhold 38000
[02:04:52] <roh> setp stepgen.0.dirsetup 38000
[02:04:55] * icee sighs
[02:05:02] <icee> do you not understand what i'm saying?
[02:06:30] <PCW> poor latency can cause intermittent stalls at high speeds but should make little difference when just poking around like this
[02:06:46] <roh> well... what does the latency test say?
[02:06:56] <MercuryRising> okay i messed up a little bit, i had the jumper set to 4 before. When microstepping is set to 1/4, it will not work, when set to 1/2, it will work
[02:06:56] <icee> latency test should not matter.
[02:07:13] <icee> if, a configuration moves thigns at full speed and the computer successfully generates a signal to that
[02:07:31] <icee> if you set microstepping to 1/2, it should move half as fast for the same jog rate
[02:07:43] <icee> and if you set the microstepping to 1/4, it should move one quarter as fast for the same jog rate
[02:08:08] <icee> e.g. no editing scale parameters, just changing the jumper on the drive board only
[02:08:16] <PCW> (as long as you leave the hal/ini files unchanged)
[02:08:20] <MercuryRising> let me do some timing quick
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[02:11:15] <MercuryRising> setting driver microstepping to two, setting microstepping on board to 1 and 2, 1 goes twice as fast as two
[02:11:34] <icee> MercuryRising: leave the software alone, just change the microstepping jumpers
[02:11:38] <icee> one variable at a time
[02:12:57] <PCW> no this is battleship! he gets to change anything and you get to contruct a mental map of whats happening
[02:13:11] <icee> :)
[02:13:28] <MercuryRising> sorry, i don't entirely know what i'm poking at yet
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[02:14:01] <MercuryRising> keeping software with driver microstepping at one, changing hardware microstepping from 1-2, 1 drives twice as fast as 2, 2 has some trouble moving, but when it does it is about half speed of 1
[02:14:30] <MercuryRising> sometimes it goes, sometimes it doesn't
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[02:15:55] <MercuryRising> nudging the velocity up a little bit makes it work more reliably with hardware 1/2 microstepping
[02:19:41] <PCW> did you try lowering the acceleration?
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[02:20:24] <MercuryRising> it's at 1...
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[02:20:50] <MercuryRising> and the GUI doesn't let it go any lower
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[02:22:52] <MercuryRising> gotta run for a bit, thanks for the help guys!
[02:22:56] <PCW> Hmm how is the static motor torque? (can you turn the shaft by hand)
[02:23:10] <MercuryRising> when they're on?
[02:23:16] <PCW> Yes
[02:23:25] <MercuryRising> cannot turn by hand
[02:23:34] <MercuryRising> .25" shaft
[02:23:44] <PCW> OK good
[02:23:45] <PCW> bbl
[02:23:54] <MercuryRising> and the plot thickens.......
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[02:44:38] <icee> anyone running a stepper spindle?
[02:45:58] <Tom_itx> i doubt it
[02:46:15] * icee is considering it for his minimill
[02:46:48] <icee> right now the spindle is operator controlled.. with a stepper i'd get cnc control and be rigid-tapping capable
[02:48:42] <pcw_home> Hard to get many Watts of cutting power from a stepmotor (and rigid tapping just needs a reversable drive, not a CNC axis))
[02:51:24] <Tom_itx> icee, how small is your mini mill?
[02:51:57] <Tom_itx> i converted a sherline i've had for years
[02:54:30] <icee> yah, mine is a sherline with the longest x table
[02:58:01] <ds3> Hmmmm any suggestions off hand for a "joint 2 following error"?
[02:58:21] <icee> are your accelerations sane?
[02:59:14] <ds3> trying to bring up a new machine
[02:59:32] <pcw_home> Better clip?
[02:59:37] <ds3> I think they are sane... G00 Z1.0 in MDI mode works
[02:59:48] <ds3> it is a drill cycle (G81) that is failing
[03:00:38] <icee> stepper or servo?
[03:00:53] <ds3> stepper
[03:00:57] <ds3> open loop, no feedback
[03:02:29] <ds3> let me try making FERROR and MIN_FERROR larger
[03:07:09] <ds3> that seems to have done it... not sure what the side effects will be
[03:07:34] <icee> well, how much error did you tell it was acceptable?
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[03:10:53] <ds3> the defaults was 0.05/0.01, I made it 0.10/0.05
[03:11:19] <Tom_L> icee, mine before i started converting: http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/boards/USBTiny_Mkii/Boxes/milling1.jpg
[03:11:47] <icee> :)
[03:11:57] <Tom_L> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/cnc/psu/psu_index.php
[03:12:04] <Tom_L> the new supply and drivers for it
[03:12:18] <Tom_L> a bit overkill but leaves room for a bigger mill
[03:12:50] <icee> That's very similar to my setup, except i have the 18" table
[03:13:05] <Tom_L> i wanted more Y travel
[03:13:21] <Tom_L> iirc i get about 7 x 9 or so
[03:13:39] <icee> i'm.. making AK & PSL receivers
[03:13:45] <icee> so the 13" table was just not enough
[03:13:45] <icee> heh
[03:14:13] <Tom_L> i bet that takes a while to mill
[03:14:46] <icee> it's just out of sheet stock, so it's not too bad
[03:14:56] <icee> 45 minutes i think is the program length
[03:14:58] <Jymmm> http://www.eonline.com/news/305614/mug-shot-of-the-day-that-70s-show-s-lisa-robin-kelly-arrested
[03:15:12] <Tom_L> icee, what cad cam do you use?
[03:15:36] <icee> solidworks.. still settling on CAM. i've often written my own programs for whatever i'm doing
[03:15:58] <Tom_L> i got a copy of smartcam years back
[03:16:04] <Tom_L> for full 3d work
[03:16:12] <icee> a friend has featurecam and i've played with it
[03:16:22] <icee> it's.. kinda hard to coerce it to go slow
[03:16:23] <icee> :P
[03:16:35] <Tom_L> most of the shops around here have gone to catia now
[03:17:30] <icee> i'm probably going to try pycam soon
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[03:17:41] <Tom_L> i made a post for my sherline for it
[03:17:42] <Tom_L> so it's not bad
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[03:18:16] <icee> when we did the microsatellite that was all mastercam and it was OK
[03:18:27] <Jymmm> http://celebslam.celebuzz.com//bfm_gallery/2012/04/Lisa%20Robin%20Kelly%20Arrest/gallery_enlarged/gallery_enlarged-lisa-robin-kelly-03.jpg
[03:18:36] <Tom_L> yeah i looked at it back then but liked smartcam better
[03:18:51] <Tom_L> another bud of mine used surfcam
[03:35:50] <ds3> this is annoying
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[03:36:15] <ds3> stepping the G code works. letting it run results in it stopping w/o a reason.
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[04:11:20] <skunkworks> odd - someone was using my nick
[04:11:48] <skunkworks> the nerve! ;)
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[04:35:05] <ds3> finally something working
[04:35:26] <ds3> reboot and increasing the base period seems to make things saner
[04:35:51] <abetusk> http://imgur.com/7Srmh
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[05:05:10] <tjb1_> abetusk: What is it?
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[05:44:19] <ds3> p
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[06:56:25] <automata_> hi PCW
[06:57:33] <automata_> I was wondering if I were to run two stepgens in velocity mode and have their velocity commands be equal, then will their positions be aligned after say 1/2 hour of running?
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[07:56:51] <DJ9DJ> moin
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[08:24:42] <Loetmichel> mornin'
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[11:20:45] <automata> I was wondering if I were to run two stepgens in velocity mode and have their velocity commands be equal, then will their positions be aligned after say 1/2 hour of running?
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[11:24:10] <automata> hi
[11:26:12] <jthornton> try and see
[11:30:08] <Jymmm> automata: do they START or END aligned?
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[12:50:55] <automata> I want the start an end aligned
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[12:52:03] <automata> I guess I am going to try it out .. will report back with resulsts and details...
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[14:23:59] <cncbasher_> can anyone confirm when using axis if you move under manual control 1mm the readout shows 25.4
[14:24:19] <cncbasher_> i.e 1mm is equaling 1"
[14:24:26] <cradek> more details please
[14:24:31] <cradek> what do you mean manual control?
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[14:24:41] <cncbasher_> i've just try'd it and i get the same error
[14:25:06] <cncbasher_> under manual control as opposed to gcode
[14:25:23] <cradek> what do you mean manual control? are you jogging? using mdi? wheel?
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[14:25:31] <cncbasher_> use the drop down an select 1mm
[14:25:42] <cradek> ok, using incremental jog
[14:25:47] <cradek> what linuxcnc version?
[14:26:03] <cncbasher_> then do a move and the display then shows a move of 25.4 rather than 1mm
[14:26:14] <cncbasher_> although machine only moves 1mm
[14:26:33] <cncbasher_> 2.6 git master
[14:26:41] <cradek> is your ini file in inches or mm?
[14:26:45] <cncbasher_> mm
[14:26:52] <cradek> can you put your ini up on pastebin please
[14:27:08] <cncbasher_> had a post on the forum , so i went and checked it
[14:27:13] <cradek> also let us know your exact git version (git describe)
[14:27:17] <cncbasher_> and i get the same result
[14:27:46] <cradek> have a url of the thread?
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[14:28:28] <cncbasher_> http://linuxcnc.org/index.php/english/forum/38-general-linuxcnc-questions/25890-git-linuxcnc-26pre-problem-mm#27050
[14:29:35] <cradek> thanks for info, brb
[14:29:46] <cncbasher_> ok
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[14:30:21] <cncbasher_> it's treating 1mm as 1inch somewhere i think
[14:31:01] <cradek> did you happen to test 2.5 too?
[14:31:11] <cradek> darn, gotta run, bbl
[14:31:33] <cncbasher_> not as yet
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[14:49:19] <mrsun> http://blog.cnccookbook.com/2012/11/27/clearing-welded-on-aluminum-from-endmills-drill-bits-and-inserts/?utm_source=CNCCookbook+Blog+Posts&utm_campaign=be023125ae-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email
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[15:10:22] <cradek> well yeah it sure does look broken
[15:10:47] <cradek> the BIG DRO showing over the backplot is new behavior I don't recall discussing
[15:10:54] <cradek> I wonder if it was an accident.
[15:10:55] <cncbasher_> cradek:do you get the same result
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[15:11:40] <cradek> yeah, something's wrong with it, not sure what yet
[15:12:00] <cradek> I'm going to check 2.5, although I'm sure it's fine
[15:12:25] <cncbasher_> he says 2.5 worked fine in his messages
[15:13:00] <cradek> ok
[15:13:02] <cradek> I agree 2.5 is fine
[15:25:27] <awallin> mrsun: wow that's really abusing the endmill. no coolant at all and slow rpm or something ?
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[16:08:50] <mrsun> humm
[16:09:11] <mrsun> haha they must have done that
[16:09:17] <mrsun> but the thing was about getting it off :P
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[16:38:14] <mrsun> http://www.cnccookbook.com/img/OthersProjects/Machines/DynaMax2.jpg thats actualy quite clever .. tho doesnt some machines use springs to hold the motor against the racks ?
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[16:47:57] <IchGuckLive> awallin: ?
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[16:48:38] <IchGuckLive> PCW ?
[16:49:26] <archivist> mrsun, no mention of the motor rocking on its mount :)
[16:49:49] <IchGuckLive> someone can give me a clue on what this cable may look like there is no /RXD /TXD on the serial connector and also the pin numbers are wrong
[16:49:52] <IchGuckLive> http://www.bilder-upload.eu/show.php?file=982d8d-1354121202.png
[16:51:42] <IchGuckLive> pcw_home: ?
[16:52:20] <pcw_home> ? not sure what the question is, Is that the suggested cable for setting up your drive?
[16:52:58] <IchGuckLive> yes the yaskawa service told me to look into the Divice PDF and ifound the xable layout
[16:53:26] <IchGuckLive> but it gives me a question as there is no NOT port on the PC end
[16:53:37] <IchGuckLive> look at the screenshot
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[16:55:48] <ve7it> not a problem... just the way they have them labeled... just build the cable like shown on page c12
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[16:56:26] <pcw_home> Yeah the PC end is labled wrong
[16:56:36] <IchGuckLive> i did it and still got no connection
[16:57:09] <ve7it> 2,3,and pin 5 are the standard 9 pin pc cable .... did you add the jumpers shown on the pc end of the cable?
[16:57:29] <IchGuckLive> yes
[16:58:19] <IchGuckLive> can a messure somthing with the oscilloscope if it thansfers data ?
[16:58:25] <ve7it> are you using their software setup package or a generic terminal emulator?
[16:58:36] <IchGuckLive> software
[16:59:19] <IchGuckLive> Xtraware press connect online and it goes sandtimer for 10sec and returns with no fault and no connection
[16:59:46] <pcw_home> You can verify correct cabling of the txd/rxd with a voltmeter or a scope
[16:59:49] <ve7it> hmmm... you could check the pins 2 and 3 on the pc end of the cable
[17:00:23] <IchGuckLive> what shoudt i messure there
[17:00:34] <pcw_home> can you measure the voltages at pin 2 and 3 at the PC end?
[17:00:44] <ve7it> signals should swing at least 0 to +5, but more correctly +-3 to +-15
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[17:01:10] <IchGuckLive> i will set the osci up
[17:01:37] <IchGuckLive> 2to GND and 3 to Gnd or 2-3
[17:01:52] <pcw_home> they should both idle at at a negative voltage but maybe close to 0V (to gnd)
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[17:07:46] <ve7it> scope ground to pin 5 and then look at signals on pin 2 and 3 of pc connector
[17:08:58] <IchGuckLive> no ther is nothing
[17:09:26] <pcw_home> 0V?
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[17:11:04] <IchGuckLive> -6.35V on 3 to Gbd
[17:11:13] <IchGuckLive> GND
[17:12:19] <pcw_home> PC pin 3?
[17:12:21] <pcw_home> what about pin 2
[17:12:47] <IchGuckLive> 6.35 between 3 and 2 +- depeding on dir of messurment
[17:12:59] <IchGuckLive> nothing on 2 to GND
[17:13:31] <pcw_home> 0V?
[17:14:39] <IchGuckLive> yes
[17:15:49] <pcw_home> that sounds plausible if the drive is faking RS-232 with TTL level outputs so nothing obvious wrong
[17:17:16] <tjb1> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHaVc5i-Dzs
[17:22:53] <IchGuckLive> yesterday the servo has moved even with errors today after yaskawa told me to reset to factory default and start over with the servo setupfile it is worth
[17:23:22] <IchGuckLive> no communication to the divice means no paramer settings
[17:23:48] <IchGuckLive> and this is the new error Servo parameter wrong
[17:25:26] <IchGuckLive> the driver gives me a sowtware version of 003C the type field gives a 3.23
[17:26:07] <IchGuckLive> the software let me choos lots of divices
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[17:31:44] <IchGuckLive> if i check the driver for Servomotor Model it gives me a number that is not in the list
[17:32:04] <IchGuckLive> 08 is the display the list goes to 06
[17:32:20] <IchGuckLive> but the servo motor is not in the list
[17:33:00] <IchGuckLive> i did parameter manuelll input of all 185 listet in the motor file yaskawa provided
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[17:36:35] <IchGuckLive> pcw_home: what if i change the 2 and 3 wire <-> maybe it is wrong in the numbers
[17:40:29] <IchGuckLive> pcw_home: this is the connector on the Drive
[17:40:32] <IchGuckLive> http://foengarage.de/rs232-omron.jpg
[17:42:32] <IchGuckLive> isent it in standard that TXD connects to RXD and RXD to TXD
[17:42:47] <IchGuckLive> so the comunication goes Tranciver Reciver
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[17:59:34] <pcw_home> Hmm thats RS-422
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[18:12:37] <IchGuckLive> pcw_home: here are the manuels if you want to have a look http://industrial.omron.us/en/misc/search/default.html?q=xtradrive
[18:13:04] <IchGuckLive> first one is the software second one is the manuel for the drive
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[18:52:31] <jdh> I want to scale a 0-90VDC tach down to 0-5VDC. Does the overall magnitude of the voltage divider resistors really matter that much as long as the ratio is correct?
[18:55:11] <skunkworks> wow - 0 to 5 volts... that seems
[18:55:16] <skunkworks> a bit extreme
[18:55:25] <pcw_home> You need them high enough so they dont dissipate too much power or represent too much load for the tachometer but low enough so the low end tap is not too high impedance
[18:55:25] <jdh> why?
[18:55:28] <cradek> what are you doing?
[18:56:01] <pcw_home> also that will only work one direction (unless you have -5 to +5V
[18:56:15] <pcw_home> inputs)
[18:56:24] <jdh> I want to read a tach with an avr and compute an average rpm
[18:57:02] <cradek> for what purpose?
[18:57:46] <jdh> verification of a tube welder
[18:57:47] <pcw_home> so 85K and 5K...
[18:58:49] <pcw_home> well 84.5k
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[19:00:29] <jdh> the tach is 0-90, but it will never see more than 55V or so
[19:03:04] <pcw_home> so 49.9K and 4.99k... (or 10K and 1 K if you want a < 1K source impedance for the AVR A-D)
[19:04:35] <pcw_home> 10K 1/2 W in this case since it will dissipate 1/4 W at 55V into the divider
[19:05:06] <automata> Hi PCW
[19:05:20] <pcw_home> Hi
[19:05:47] <automata> I wanted to implement an electronic gear using a mesa stepgen with 7i43
[19:06:13] <pcw_home> OK
[19:06:26] <automata> I got the obvious solution out of the way...
[19:06:56] <automata> Put the two stepgens in velocity mode and provided a scaled velocity command to both
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[19:07:27] <automata> I measured the position-fb pin from both and all is good.
[19:08:00] <automata> If the two stepgens have started from 0 then they scale together and not a moment out of sync
[19:08:16] <automata> But this is an open loop system.
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[19:08:47] <automata> There is no feedback from the position pulses to ensure position synchronization
[19:09:12] <pcw_home> well they will stay reasonably in alignment but there will be long term drift (if for no other reason than the limited accuracy of specifying the rates)
[19:09:22] <automata> So this system may miss a few pulses and be out of sync in position..
[19:09:34] <automata> that is what I thought...
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[19:09:58] <automata> So what follows is how to prevent that...
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[19:10:28] <pcw_home> you could lock them together with a PID loop (and the scale/offset comp)
[19:11:09] <automata> Yes.. that is one way
[19:11:32] <pcw_home> for integer ratios it can stay in sync
[19:11:37] <automata> but another requirement is the ability to change the gear ratio
[19:12:20] <pcw_home> Yeah the gear ration would be specified as an input to the scale comp
[19:12:27] <automata> if the gear ratio changes how would the offset work?
[19:12:57] <automata> yup.. and how to use the offset in this scenario? when to set the offset?
[19:13:21] <automata> I am guessing it should be set when the gear ratio changes
[19:14:08] <pcw_home> If you need to change the gear ration dynamically you wouldneed to set the offset so they is no output step
[19:14:47] <pcw_home> the scale comp has both scale (gear ratio) and offset
[19:15:01] <automata> yes
[19:16:30] <automata> Is there a way to set the position-fb pin in the hostmot2 component to 0 ?
[19:16:48] <automata> then I would not need the offset...
[19:16:54] <pcw_home> I dont think so
[19:17:25] <automata> also would there be a hal example for setting the offset on change of the gear ratio?
[19:17:45] <pcw_home> I think that also dangerous output step wise
[19:18:02] <pcw_home> (clearing the position)
[19:18:10] <automata> hmm
[19:19:04] <pcw_home> so better done with an offset (sort of same situation with encoder counters, you never really want to clear them when moving, just grab an offset)
[19:19:10] <automata> Well to further complicate matters, I want to operate both stepgens in position mode sometimes too...
[19:19:57] <pcw_home> Can you use a LinuxCNC axis for these? (so its always position mode)
[19:20:15] <automata> I tried the control-type pin on the hostmot2 component and it works... I can switch between position and velocity quiet well
[19:21:04] <automata> I could use the axis from linuxcnc... but then I also want to operate the axis for a threading like operation
[19:21:13] <pcw_home> Yeah as long as you deal with control loop glitches/steps when changing modes
[19:21:22] <jdh> pcw: thanks!
[19:21:48] <automata> I thought of disabling the pulse outputs from the FPGA during changes
[19:22:02] <pcw_home> the mux component and the right offsets should make it possible
[19:22:03] <automata> Further also disable the motor drives
[19:22:58] <pcw_home> that OK as long as this is not done while moving (the stepgen enable input does this)
[19:24:24] <automata> any idea how to set the offset on change of gear ratio or control type?
[19:24:24] <pcw_home> you can also use the limit component to ramp velocities up and down
[19:24:55] <automata> i did that too... I used limit2 for controlling velocity slew
[19:24:59] <automata> rate
[19:25:49] <automata> I think I can ensure that the gear ratio is not changed while moving or when in position control mode
[19:26:30] <automata> Also I am using the spindle speed output from motion.spindle-speed to set the speed of the electronic gear
[19:26:46] <pcw_home> its a simple subtraction
[19:28:35] <automata> So just use an edge trigger when the control mode changes and cache the current position in offset with a sample and hold type component?
[19:29:12] <pcw_home> at least I think it is...
[19:29:14] <pcw_home> offset is -NxP
[19:29:15] <pcw_home> where N is the ratio and P is the current position
[19:29:17] <pcw_home> (since master is 1xP)
[19:29:57] <automata> I think I will also have to account for the position-scale for both the axes... but that can be accounted for in N
[19:31:01] <automata> The master will also need an offset applied right?
[19:31:37] <pcw_home> I was assuming there a master (1x) and a slave (Nx) so the master never needs a offset
[19:31:43] <pcw_home> theres
[19:32:23] <automata> but on changing the gear ratio, the master postiion will also be required to be offset else we will still see a glitch
[19:33:01] <automata> glitch/step in output
[19:33:04] <pcw_home> not if its its always the master (ist ratio never changes)
[19:33:12] <pcw_home> always 1x
[19:33:55] <automata> Yup... time to write down the math on a piece of paper...
[19:35:08] <pcw_home> you could do both (parametric) with Nx and Mx, then you would have to offset both
[19:35:10] <pcw_home>
[19:35:43] <automata> ok.. that is a good suggestion...
[19:36:28] <automata> there is no float sample and hold component? I guess it is time to write one...
[19:37:36] <pcw_home> If you could actually write the FPGA registers with data you could do integer ratios exactly (not practical but illustrates how the frequency generator works)
[19:38:25] <automata> I generally envision only integer ratios
[19:38:55] <pcw_home> and there would be errors during ramp up and down
[19:39:03] <automata> but it is safe and easy to make a complete solution while I am at it...
[19:40:13] <automata> Now for the PID .. I should be using the scaled velocity command as a velocity feedforward command right?
[19:41:42] <pcw_home> I think so (feed forward has to be 99.999% of this)
[19:41:44] <automata> and use the position error as ( Master_pos*M - master_offset) - (slave_pos*N - slave_offset)
[19:42:10] <automata> nope... that is wrong
[19:42:18] <pcw_home> _scaled_ slave position
[19:43:02] <automata> i think error = (MasterPos - master_offset) * M - (slavePos - slave_offset) *N
[19:43:08] <automata> Does that sound right?
[19:43:43] <pcw_home> yeah something like that anyway
[19:44:25] <automata> cool ...
[19:44:57] <automata> Another question... how do I test if this works right? and how would I start to tune the PID?
[19:45:30] <automata> any test case scenarios or corner cases I could try?
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[19:48:21] <pcw_home> Since it is a simple first order system I would just start with FF1 and a little P
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[19:48:50] <automata> Ok
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[19:51:16] <pcw_home> FF1 comes from the command input so needs to reflect the ratio
[19:53:49] <automata> the output of the PID is velocity of the slave right?
[19:54:05] <pcw_home> Hmm I think I need to think about this some more...
[19:54:07] <pcw_home> the output of the PID loops need to be the correct velocity even with no feedback
[19:54:28] <automata> That is what I was going to say next...
[19:55:06] <fragalot> how can you have a PID loop if you don't have feedback?
[19:55:12] <fragalot> sorry I missed the first half of the conversation :P
[19:55:15] <pcw_home> (ust FF1)
[19:55:21] <pcw_home> just ff1
[19:57:24] <automata> fragalot: pcw is helping me with setting up a electronic gear using stepgens with the ability to change the gear ratio on the fly
[19:57:42] * fragalot slowly backs away
[19:57:43] <pcw_home> so command input to both PID loops is a position profile
[19:57:45] <pcw_home> FF1s are scaled so the correct velocities are output on each
[19:57:46] <pcw_home> feedback is scaled as well so a little P term keep them from wandering apart
[19:58:18] <pcw_home> (scaled and offset-ed)
[19:58:58] <automata> Both PID loops??
[19:59:17] <pcw_home> (assuming parametric)
[19:59:30] <pcw_home> master slave does the same with just one
[20:00:11] <automata> MAster would not need a PID... if there is an error in the master velocity the slave should still follow it...
[20:00:21] <pcw_home> yep
[20:00:26] <automata> so I was thinking that only the slave gets a PID...
[20:01:14] <pcw_home> so you can try it open loop with just FF1 doing the scaling
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[20:03:20] <automata> Yup.. No PID on master at all. just connect the velocity-cmd pin of the stepgen to the spindle-speed passed through a limit2
[20:04:39] <automata> slave PID gets pid.command = (masterpos-masteroffset)*M
[20:05:13] <automata> pid.feedback = (slavepos - slaveoffset)*N
[20:06:59] <automata> and the velocity-cmd to the slave stepgen = pid.output + master.vel_cmd *N/M
[20:07:38] <automata> add the vel_cmd from outside the PID... not sure if it a good idea though...
[20:12:03] <automata> I now see that FF1*N is the same as master.vel_cmd*N/M
[20:13:30] <pcw_home> Yeah there are enough different places to do the same thing its easy to get confused
[20:13:37] <automata> for the slave PID connect the pid.command-deriv pin tooo
[20:14:03] <automata> as the commanded velocity.
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[20:14:49] <automata> This is getting complicated enough to deserve its own special component...
[20:16:49] <automata> the sample and hold for the offset + parametric scaling + pid... i think it would make a neat component.. for an electronic gear
[20:18:49] <automata> any ideas on how to test this whiz-bang?
[20:19:50] <automata> how would I find a missing pulse (if there were one)?
[20:20:28] <automata> I guess monitoring the PID.error would help
[20:21:23] <pcw_home> well if you had encoders you could check all the way to the mechanics, but the stepgens do not lose or gain steps (the position register is an accurate representation of generated pulses)
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[20:22:37] <pcw_home> yes your PID error will check you tuning, but tuning _should_ be minimal (like I said this is 99.999% feed forward)
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[20:23:11] <automata> That is what I thought... that the position-fb for the stepgen uses the subcounts too and that would give a very accurate description of the current position.
[20:23:55] <pcw_home> Yeah the PID comp should never see significant errors. its just to correct long term drifts
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[20:24:36] <pcw_home> 'phase locking'
[20:24:52] <automata> that is the term I was looking for...
[20:26:39] <automata> I think using the position-scale and position-fb and M, N values we could arrive at a theoretical limit for pid.error in case of a one pulse error
[20:27:01] <automata> then monitor the pid.error for excursions outside this range
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[20:49:07] <andypugh> I couldn't resist at less than £1 each: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SELECTION-OF-LATHE-TOOL-HOLDERS-33-IN-TOTAL-/140889925131
[20:49:46] <andypugh> (Though it is anyone's guess what they all are)
[20:49:59] <tjb1> You couldn't resist huh…
[20:50:23] <cradek> that's for a weird lathe
[20:50:47] <andypugh> I <heart> badly advertised auctions.
[20:50:51] <Tom_itx> andypugh you still after those tool holders?
[20:51:03] <andypugh> Tom_itx: Not any more, I just paid.
[20:51:07] <Tom_itx> ahh
[20:51:57] <cradek> those are for at least 4 different machines
[20:52:21] <Tom_itx> see then he'll have the tooling so all he needs to do is hunt down those machines and bid on em
[20:52:38] <andypugh> Yes, BT30, 30Int, 40Int, and the one with the semi-cylindrical slot in the side
[20:53:01] <cradek> does int = nmtb?
[20:53:10] <andypugh> I figure on keeping the ones that fit my machine (the 30 taper) and selling/giving away the rest.
[20:53:24] <andypugh> cradek: Not quite.
[20:53:26] <cradek> I think they're cat30, not bt30
[20:54:03] <andypugh> The pull-stud ones?
[20:54:28] <cradek> the long skinny pull stud ones are cat
[20:55:02] <andypugh> I reckon I can use any 30-taper.
[20:55:22] <cradek> if you don't have a tool changer that depends on the flange, yes, IF you can find the right pull stud
[20:55:31] <cradek> cat have an inch thread, bt have metric
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[20:56:04] <cradek> there's a bt40 (50?) in there
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[20:56:39] <andypugh> I make my own pull-studs for my own drawbar ;-)
[20:56:48] <mrsun> http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/598467_10151260931403648_451078537_n.jpg a little machine ive had standing in the basement for a couple of years and totaly forgot about :P
[20:57:27] <andypugh> mrsun: It's a death trap. No guards. Let me take it off your hands.
[20:57:35] <mrsun> haha :P
[20:58:14] <mrsun> with allt he stuff i bought at the same time i think i gave about 55usd for it =)
[20:58:45] <mrsun> some damage to the table and some greace thingies i need to fix up but other then that a quite nice machine, just a belt and replace motor cable and im golden =)
[20:58:48] <mrsun> 2 jaw chuck etc :P
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[21:02:38] <andypugh> Is a 2-jaw chuck much use?
[21:05:35] <mrsun> dont know :P
[21:05:43] <mrsun> its what is on it and i dont know how its put in there =)
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[21:09:31] <andypugh> Ah, 2-jaw drlll-chuck? I think those are normally for this style of drill shank: http://www.leevalley.com/us/images/item/woodworking/drilling/50j0501s3.jpg
[21:12:09] <mrsun> mm
[21:12:12] <mrsun> i guess they are
[21:12:20] <mrsun> dont know, can they hold round drills? :)
[21:12:26] <mrsun> i want to get this machine working =)
[21:12:47] <mrsun> just need to fix a big chunk that is damaged on the table ... else its in mint condition
[21:12:55] <mrsun> maybe check the bearings for the motor, might just need new greace
[21:13:58] <mrsun> and a cleanup/rust removal and it will be very nice =)
[21:16:57] <andypugh> I have held round drills in them, but not well.
[21:17:35] <mrsun> hmm ok =)
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[21:18:00] <andypugh> The firt thing to do is probably to unscrew the outer shell all the way, swear when you lose the springs, decide that next time you will hold a plastic bag over the chuck when unscrewing it, and then see if the threads are integral with the drill spindle.
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[21:21:14] <mrsun> springs ?
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[21:21:49] <andypugh> There are always springs if you assume otherwise, and an absence if you take precautions.
[21:21:51] <skunkworks> You have to be a programmer/guru to use linuxcnc... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mach1mach2cnc/message/137669
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[21:23:29] <andypugh> I bet there is a file, though.
[21:24:02] <andypugh> (or a database to be queried in a more elegant way than that)
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[21:24:21] <cradek> some in our midst think it's a silly anachronism to have the tool table be a normal text file.
[21:25:03] <andypugh> I do.
[21:25:34] <andypugh> I think that anyone who thinks they need a printout of their tool table is probbaly wrong.
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[21:26:49] <andypugh> A plain-text file is one way to do it, though. But that should be the "live copy" not some artificially-limited structure embedded in NML messages.
[21:26:50] <cradek> it would be interesting to know what problem he was trying to solve
[21:28:52] <andypugh> I think I might build a Mach machine, just to prove something. I am not sure what. Perhaps kissing a man would prove the same thing and be easier to forget?
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[21:35:41] <andypugh> cradek: I am going to suggest that 30INT and NMTB30 might differ subtly, as I believe NMTB30 defines a second max diameter under the flange, and this 30-INT doesn't have that: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ER32-Collet-chuck-30-int-taper-with-spanner-/251189974173?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3a7c16d49d
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[21:39:21] <andypugh> (random observation. eBay searches for 30 INT turn up a fair bit of gay paraphenalia, whereas my more regular search for BT30 turns up bow ties.) Err, that should not be read in conjunction with my previous comment.
[21:40:42] -!- Guest____ [Guest____!~textual@andr19-149-dhcp.resnet.colorado.edu] has joined #linuxcnc
[21:40:52] <Guest____> Hey guys, I'm new to Linux CNC and I am trying to get my MLE-40 laser cutter working with it. Anyone around to give me a small helping hand?
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[21:41:03] <seb_kuzminsky> what's your question, Guest____
[21:41:21] <Guest____> seb_kuzminsky: Is there already a configuration made for the device?
[21:41:36] <Guest____> their documentation references linuxcnc but then I don't see any matching configuration file
[21:41:50] <seb_kuzminsky> not that i know of. certainly it's not one of the configs we distribute
[21:42:00] <seb_kuzminsky> ooh! can you send a link to their docs?
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[21:42:26] <Guest____> http://www.fullspectrumengineering.com/files/FSL_40w_Hobby_Laser_Manual.pdf
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[21:42:30] <Guest____> seb_kuzminsky ^^
[21:42:34] <Guest____> see page 25
[21:42:39] <Guest____> they reference linuxcnc directly
[21:42:41] * seb_kuzminsky clicks
[21:43:29] <icee> Guest____: how's your experience with the FSL guys been?
[21:43:43] <cradek> they need a thicker string between their dixie cups
[21:43:46] <icee> Guest____: have you used retinaengrave and how is that?
[21:43:56] <Guest____> icee: First day with the laser, it was donated to me :)
[21:44:05] <andypugh> Cute machine, but seems to have absolutely no distance between the table and the tool. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Centec-2A-Universal-Milling-Machine-/321028440026
[21:44:08] <Guest____> So, no I didn't get retnaengrave with it
[21:44:16] <icee> cradek: you have experience with them?
[21:44:23] -!- skunkworks has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
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[21:44:50] <icee> i'm actually in the kickstarter for their next gen hobby laser.. i knew they were a kinda-crummy vendor going into it, but have heard mostly good stuff about their actual product
[21:44:51] <cradek> no
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[21:45:22] <Guest____> icee: do you use a FSL?
[21:45:30] <icee> Guest____: waiting for mine
[21:45:33] <Guest____> oh nice
[21:45:49] <andypugh> Eeew! They can't kern. Repulsed by page 1
[21:45:59] <Guest____> ya, I didn't get retina engrave because the person who gave us the laser didn't give us the disk
[21:46:16] <icee> this one http://fslaser.com/products/lasers/newhobby
[21:46:17] <seb_kuzminsky> Guest____: yeah, i see that they say to come talk to us, but i've never heard of their product before
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[21:46:32] <Guest____> seb_kuzminsky: that's quite odd :/
[21:46:51] <Guest____> seb_kuzminsky: any configuration you can think of that might work for the laser?
[21:46:56] <Guest____> Or should I contact them?
[21:47:11] <cradek> they pretty clearly disclaim any responsibility for helping you
[21:47:17] <Guest____> (well rather… continue waiting for them to get back to me)
[21:47:24] <andypugh> How hard can it be?
[21:47:50] <Guest____> andypugh: I'm a big unix guy, but I haven't touched linuxcnc before now. So a bit of a learning curve
[21:48:18] <andypugh> Sorry, I was being sarcastic
[21:48:33] <Guest____> haha alrighty :)
[21:49:33] <andypugh> It would be fairly easy if the manual hinted at the connector pinout
[21:49:58] <andypugh> it doesn't seem to.
[21:50:39] <cradek> that is certainly information you should expect to receive with the machine
[21:51:26] <andypugh> It is possible to work it out, by a brute-force exploration in stepconf.
[21:51:34] <seb_kuzminsky> the manual says you can control the machine through its parallel port, but it lacks pinouts and timing information
[21:52:06] <seb_kuzminsky> if you get that from the vendor we can try to set up a linuxcnc config for it, but without that information it's going to be annoying and time consuming
[21:52:11] <andypugh> Which might not be that hard, one axis at a time, initially assuming that step and direction for any one axis are on adjacent pins.
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[21:52:49] <AlJaMa> Back, I was guest
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[21:53:23] <AlJaMa> Jumped on the phone and got a nick
[21:53:44] <seb_kuzminsky> AlJaMa: if i were you, i would contact the hardware manufacturer and ask for the pinout & timing information for the parallel port
[21:53:56] <andypugh> <stalk> You appear to be a student, so perhaps have the time for the logic-puzzle of guess-the-pinout?
[21:54:44] <andypugh> On the plus side, you can't break anything. Unless they have been very careless with the laser-tube PWM input, I guess.
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[21:55:24] <DJ9DJ> gn8
[21:55:30] <AlJaMa_> Alrighty
[21:55:34] <seb_kuzminsky> AlJaMa: hey, i just noticed you're at colorado.edu
[21:55:37] <seb_kuzminsky> i live in boulder
[21:55:39] <AlJaMa_> Yep :)
[21:55:52] <AlJaMa_> Oh incredible! Ya I'm a student here
[21:55:58] <seb_kuzminsky> cool!
[21:56:16] <seb_kuzminsky> if you get the pinout & timing info from the vendor, i'd be happy to meet with you some time and help you get the laser running
[21:56:41] <andypugh> Bingo! http://www.fullspectrumengineering.com/laser%20connection.html
[21:57:02] <seb_kuzminsky> thanks andypugh :-)
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[21:58:00] <AlJaMa> Incredible! So is anyone willing to help me to write a config for it?
[21:58:07] <andypugh> (Who says support sucks with Open Source?)
[21:58:07] <seb_kuzminsky> yeah, i'll help
[21:58:51] <seb_kuzminsky> is the machine at CU somewhere? or somewhere else in boulder?
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[21:59:10] <seb_kuzminsky> AlJaMa_: you keep bouncing and probably missing messages
[21:59:24] <AlJaMa> I'm still here :)
[21:59:30] <AlJaMa> Had to transfer buildings
[21:59:35] <seb_kuzminsky> ok
[21:59:37] <AlJaMa> The machine is at CU
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[21:59:50] <AlJaMa> there we go
[21:59:51] <seb_kuzminsky> in the engineering center somewhere?
[22:00:15] <AlJaMa> no actually it's part of a new program, currently sitting in a closet unused
[22:00:23] <AlJaMa> soooo I was tasked with getting it running
[22:00:28] <seb_kuzminsky> cool
[22:00:45] <seb_kuzminsky> do you have a computer with linuxcnc installed? does the laser have power?
[22:00:51] <AlJaMa> yep, and yep :)
[22:01:33] <seb_kuzminsky> do you have the parallel port cable?
[22:01:50] <AlJaMa> I currently do not have it connected, I actually just ran to class
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[22:01:59] <AlJaMa> (thus the reason i was jumping so much)
[22:02:21] <seb_kuzminsky> do you mean you have the parallel cable but it's not plugged in?
[22:02:28] <AlJaMa> not on me, but I have it
[22:02:33] <seb_kuzminsky> ok yeah
[22:02:40] <seb_kuzminsky> sounds like you're 90% done then ;-)
[22:02:56] <seb_kuzminsky> plug the cable in, poke those numbers andypugh found into stepconf, and hit the test button
[22:03:00] <AlJaMa> great! ya it was just the configuration and setup that got me.
[22:03:04] <AlJaMa> agh alright :)
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[22:03:20] <mrsun> http://media.photobucket.com/image/recent/satxrod/IMGP1882.jpg heh .. "arc of shame" =)
[22:03:41] <andypugh> I saw somewhere else in their forum that laser PWM was pin 15.
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[22:04:33] <andypugh> But that says 17.
[22:06:10] <AlJaMa> andypugh: for the laser I have?
[22:06:16] <andypugh> Yes
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[22:07:39] <andypugh> Get it moving first, though. Their advice on the pinout page is sound, you probably want to boot the PC before the laser
[22:08:05] <AlJaMa> andypugh: the picture you found… I'm trying to figure out if the labels are are showing the pin above it or below it
[22:08:24] <AlJaMa> what do you think?
[22:08:36] <andypugh> Yes, so am I :-)
[22:09:05] <andypugh> It's probably easy enough to work out, several pins are obligate grounds.
[22:10:19] <AlJaMa> what would the machine units be?
[22:10:27] <AlJaMa> (I'm using stepconf
[22:10:48] <andypugh> Your choice
[22:11:01] <AlJaMa> ah alright
[22:12:09] <seb_kuzminsky> just don't tell anyone what you choose, or they'll tell you you chose wrong
[22:12:44] <andypugh> 1000 steps per inch is the number they give, bit you could choose to base the machine in a rational and absolute measurment system if you preferred :-)
[22:14:52] <andypugh> Though as the inch is now defined in terms of the meter, defined in a universe where the speed of light is exactly 299792458m/s it is all a bit moot.
[22:15:20] <seb_kuzminsky> indeed
[22:15:27] <tjb1> Inch or go home :)
[22:16:04] <AlJaMa> hah this pinout is bad....
[22:16:11] <AlJaMa> I have no clue if it's pin above or pin below
[22:16:12] <seb_kuzminsky> how so?
[22:16:23] <andypugh> AlJaMa: If you don't know, it is a simple G-code instruction to switch units, so not that critical.
[22:17:01] <seb_kuzminsky> compare to this pic: http://www.mr-d.ca/Tutorials/Turing/interfacing.html
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[22:17:25] <andypugh> Pins 18 to 25 are always GND. That probably removes the ambiguity
[22:18:36] <AlJaMa> ah yes that does
[22:18:53] <seb_kuzminsky> the number and the label are just above the line leading to the pin location
[22:19:06] <AlJaMa> yep
[22:19:11] <andypugh> As is so often the case, Wikipedia is a good reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_port
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[22:19:40] <AlJaMa> hmmm so if this laser has their USB interface card, any idea if it would be worth trying to interface linuxcnc with that?
[22:19:45] <AlJaMa> or should I for sure go with the parallel port?
[22:19:51] <seb_kuzminsky> go with the parllel port
[22:20:05] <seb_kuzminsky> usb doesnt work well for motion control with linuxcnc
[22:20:11] <andypugh> Yes, I have a very good idea that it would be a total waste of your time to try to use the USB prt :)
[22:21:42] <andypugh> However, if you can find the original USB driver system (which may be specialist hardware) then it might well work better with that particular machine than LinuxCNC does. It pains me to say it, but LinuxCNC isn;t optimal for laser rastering.
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[22:23:14] <Jymmm> chinese laser?
[22:23:16] <seb_kuzminsky> andypugh: do you know what the issues are that make it suboptimal? is there a wiki page on this stuff somewhere?
[22:24:15] <seb_kuzminsky> Jymmm: it's by "Full Spectrum": http://fslaser.com/
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[22:24:57] <andypugh> The main issue is maintaining a constant scan speed while modulating laser power. Dither patterns will generally have to be a white move then a black move, all rather short, and that gets into the lookahead limit.
[22:25:03] <Jymmm> seb_kuzminsky: Yeah, chinese laser =)
[22:25:33] <tjb1> Isnt FSL the one that imports chinese garbage and then resells it
[22:25:55] <tjb1> Pay a bunch of money for "support" and "US help" and its chinese garbage
[22:26:18] <Jymmm> tjb1: There are some good chinese lasers now.
[22:26:36] <PCW> Probably a job for halsampler and a comp that doles out the data based on the current position
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[22:26:44] <tjb1> Gweike seems pretty popular
[22:26:55] <PCW> halstreamer I should say
[22:27:11] <andypugh> I did make a start on a specialist rastering setup, with a userpace GladeVCP panel loading image data into shared memory for a realtime specilaist movement/laser component to read. Then I got distracted by trying to make the raster generator finite-jerk, and then I did something else...
[22:27:46] <seb_kuzminsky> the difficulty is in getting a correct raster pattern out of the laser as you scan it?
[22:27:57] <PCW> probably easier to just use trapezoidal and over scan
[22:27:57] <andypugh> It wasn't looking very difficult at all, actually.
[22:28:34] <andypugh> PCW: It was going to over-scan anyway, it has to. The speed when the laser is on needs to be absolutely constant
[22:28:44] <tjb1> JT-Shop: Have you done any wiggle piercing?
[22:28:48] <PCW> Generic gcode for raster
[22:28:50] <PCW> halstreamer--> comp
[22:29:37] <andypugh> PCW: Graster is a setup rather like that, but it seemed over-complex to me. Why would there be any G-code involved at all?
[22:30:02] <andypugh> seb_kuzminsky: The laser speed needs to be constant, that's where the fun starts.
[22:30:29] <PCW> Just because the exact same system can do modulated line graphics
[22:30:31] <seb_kuzminsky> the speed with which you move the laser across the work piece?
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[22:31:05] <seb_kuzminsky> that's what needs to be constant, so that the delivered power is what the laser pwm is trying to do
[22:31:08] <seb_kuzminsky> makes sense
[22:31:44] <seb_kuzminsky> what if you treat the laser pwm as another axis, it would ramp up and down along with travel speed...
[22:32:08] <Jymmm> seb_kuzminsky: more like rpm
[22:32:12] <PCW> for raster though, overscan is probably better
[22:32:21] <andypugh> seb_kuzminsky: Yes. Otherwise you tend to get an over-burn at the points where the speed stutters. Using the motion-synched analogue out (M66?) should help, but Z and S are a problem.
[22:32:26] <Jymmm> PCW: what do you mean by 'overscan'?
[22:33:27] <PCW> enough ramp up and ramp down distance so the laser spot is moving at a constant speed when burning
[22:33:38] <tjb1> andypugh: M67
[22:33:42] <tjb1> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gcode/m-code.html#_m67_synchronized_analog_output_a_id_sec_m67_analog_output_a
[22:34:43] <andypugh> X and Y are forced to pause while Z accellerates (even if i isn't a real Z). I think spindle speed has a different problem. But even with M67 (thanks tjb1) any change in intensity is a new move, and put too many inside your decel distance and things slow down.
[22:34:49] <Jymmm> PCW: Using MY laser as example... It's NEVER consistant; the PWM changes according to the artwork, for say things like greyscale 3D engraving.
[22:35:21] <andypugh> Jymmm: Are you interested in developing the rasterer that I lost interest in
[22:35:25] <AlJaMa> hey, because I am only doing output with the serial port, am I not going to be able to see a realtime display or what the laser is doing?
[22:35:31] <AlJaMa> Or is that based off of the gcode?
[22:35:40] <AlJaMa> and not actual machine position?
[22:35:46] <seb_kuzminsky> AlJaMa: you'see see exactly what the laser is doing
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[22:35:53] <PCW> just saying thats not optimum for pictures (nonlinearities)
[22:36:11] <AlJaMa> seb_kuzminsky: through G-code interpretation?
[22:36:19] <seb_kuzminsky> based on what the gcode is asking for, not based on actual feedback from the machine, since yes, you're only doing output through the parallel port, not input
[22:36:19] <Jymmm> andypugh: My laser acts like a printer; I just print to it from whatever application I'm working from atm.
[22:36:24] <seb_kuzminsky> AlJaMa: yep :-)
[22:36:30] <AlJaMa> great :)
[22:36:46] <Jymmm> andypugh: It's the print driver that controls the settings.
[22:36:57] <AlJaMa> Jymmm: what laser do you have?
[22:37:05] <Jymmm> ULS M-300
[22:37:42] <tjb1> Couldnt you get around this by having the laser work in one direction like some of the engravers?
[22:37:48] <tjb1> Fire it when needed
[22:37:51] <Jymmm> Except I have it on a ethernet print server.
[22:38:20] <AlJaMa> does intensity of color/bitmap determine intensity of laser?
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[22:39:22] <Jymmm> bitmap, as is in raster graphics? (JPG, PNG, BMP, etc)
[22:39:58] <andypugh> AlJaMa: Get the machine working first. If LinuxCNC doesn't do exactly what you want, that doesn't mean that it never will. There is definitely work ongoing to improve lookahead. And somebody (maybe even me) might finish the rastering system I was working on. I just don't have a laser to practice with.
[22:40:02] <Jymmm> I do very very little raster graphics; I primarily stay with/use vector graphics.
[22:40:27] <AlJaMa> andypugh: Oh I was just asking for Jymmm's
[22:40:37] <tjb1> I mean run the laser like this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrFD5h4U408
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[22:41:51] <Jymmm> AlJaMa: You might look to see what they offer... http://www.lightobject.com/Commerical-DSP-CO2-Laser-Engraving-Cutter-Controller-Support-CorelDraw-AutoCad-P321.aspx
[22:42:48] <Jymmm> It's a controller in one with ethernet
[22:43:27] <AlJaMa> and the last question I can think of right now is how do you use a Parallel Port driver from USB? (I mean… no computers have parallel ports anymore :) )
[22:44:10] <andypugh> You need a real parallel port. And Lots of PCs still have them.
[22:44:37] <andypugh> Or you can use a PCI card.
[22:45:14] <andypugh> (Though, if you want to go PCI, then there are better/faster options than parallel port that can emulate the same pinout)
[22:45:23] <Jymmm> AlJaMa: look at the link I provided, even has a video
[22:48:04] <Jymmm> AlJaMa: If I was retrofitting a laser, that is what I would use.
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[22:50:45] <Jymmm> poof!
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[23:01:47] <tjb1> Jymmm: Now make him reappear
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[23:20:49] <JT-Shop> poof
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[23:29:08] <tjb1> Anyone in here use Draftsight?
[23:32:21] <jdh> sometimes
[23:32:24] <Jymmm> tjb1: You'll have to purchase to the next show to see that.
[23:32:38] <tjb1> I cant get a setting to stay...
[23:32:46] <jdh> like what
[23:33:53] <tjb1> Drawing Settings - > Display - > Coordinate System Icon, it resets back to displaying it when I restart
[23:34:31] <jdh> which version?
[23:34:46] <tjb1> V1R3
[23:34:55] <tjb1> I just updated it
[23:36:08] <jdh> bummer.
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[23:36:19] <tjb1> Does it stick on yours?
[23:36:21] <jdh> does the same here, file a bug report.
[23:38:48] <jdh> open the default template, turn it off, save the template
[23:41:52] <tjb1> Turn it off?
[23:41:54] <tjb1> oh
[23:41:57] <tjb1> Got it...
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[23:51:05] <ssi> well dammit... I have a broken HNC again
[23:51:34] <ssi> my air lines on that side of the shop are black iron, and they're rotting... I've been out of the shop for awhile, and the air lines are blowing clouds of black dust
[23:51:42] <ssi> and I think it contaminated the pneumatics on the HNC... the turret isn't working
[23:51:48] <ssi> it's like the air motors don't have enough power to move it
[23:52:00] <ssi> anyone have any thoughts on how I can go about decontaminating the pneumatics?
[23:54:15] <tjb1> Filters are probably in the valves
[23:54:39] <ssi> in the solenoids you mean?
[23:54:59] <ssi> there's a master air filter/oiler on the machine, but it's ancient. I obviously need to put a better filter on it
[23:56:27] <tjb1> Yes, you may be able to find a screen on the input to the solenoid valves
[23:57:02] <tjb1> I saved over top of the standard template and it worked jdh
[23:57:06] <ssi> I'll look into it