#linuxcnc | Logs for 2012-11-18

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[00:26:32] <L84Supper> Tom_itx: I got a few of them when I was in a hurry. I'll either grind down to 10mm or swap them for 12mm on Monday
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[00:28:51] <L84Supper> it's the one part i didn't measure when I was there
[00:29:06] <jdh> did you complain?
[00:29:56] <andypugh> What will you be grinding with?
[00:30:17] <IrrerIvan> hi there, I got a CNC machine in my fingers and for now managed tocommunicate with it via Serial. What do I need to implement to use it with linuxcnc to e.g. draw a 2d picture?
[00:30:42] <jdh> serial?
[00:30:48] <IrrerIvan> serial port
[00:30:48] <andypugh> What sort of CNC machine is it?
[00:31:08] <IrrerIvan> it's normaly a medical amchine for blood samples
[00:31:11] <andypugh> And do you know what data format is passing through the setial port?
[00:31:26] <IrrerIvan> yes, reverse engeneered that for the past days
[00:32:05] <IrrerIvan> http://www.biotechmedical.com.my/assests/images/pic_wadiana.jpg
[00:32:21] <andypugh> LinuxCNC generally interfaces directly with the motor control hardware
[00:32:31] <IrrerIvan> mhh, ok
[00:33:05] <andypugh> It is a motion controller, and in your case the motion control is performed by software on the far side of the serial link
[00:33:25] <IrrerIvan> yes, that's the case
[00:33:54] <andypugh> So, linuxCNC in its normal application is not a good fit for your machine in its current state
[00:34:15] <andypugh> You would either need to change LinuxCNC or change the machine.
[00:34:15] <IrrerIvan> can you recommend an other approach?
[00:34:49] <andypugh> Are you any good at software?
[00:34:57] <IrrerIvan> depends
[00:35:09] <andypugh> And what do you want the machine to do when you have it converted?
[00:35:37] <IrrerIvan> maybe a CNC mill
[00:35:49] <IrrerIvan> maybe just drill holes in pcbs
[00:35:58] <andypugh> Is it stiff and strong enough for that?
[00:36:12] <andypugh> I can imagine it making a good pick-and-place machine
[00:36:14] <IrrerIvan> I'll find ou
[00:36:21] <IrrerIvan> out
[00:36:29] <IrrerIvan> it is pretty heavy and stable
[00:36:52] <IrrerIvan> maybe I'll give it an extruder and make a reprap out of it
[00:36:58] <IrrerIvan> maybe all the above cases
[00:37:16] <andypugh> You say you have decoded the serial protocol?
[00:37:23] <IrrerIvan> yes
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[00:37:48] <IrrerIvan> I'ts an old machine...
[00:37:49] <andypugh> It might not be very hard to write some sort of script to convert G-code
[00:38:11] <andypugh> can you put a sample of the code up at pastebin?
[00:38:30] <IrrerIvan> I must say that's why I'm here, I have no clue of the normal workflow for a CNC
[00:38:44] <IrrerIvan> what do you mean by a sample of code?
[00:39:14] <IrrerIvan> I just used very basic command to test my serial connection and I have figured out how checksums are calculated
[00:39:15] <andypugh> The serial traffic
[00:39:24] <IrrerIvan> the code itself is not documented very well atm
[00:39:46] <L84Supper> Tom_itx: unfortunately it's not a pic of the actual blocks, they use the same pic for the larger blocks as well http://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/ballscrew-supports/bf15-c7-free-end-ballscrew-support
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[00:40:16] <andypugh> If it has checksums, then don't bother, I am not likely to recognise it if it isn't G-code, Gerber or HPGL
[00:40:17] <IrrerIvan> serial traffic would be "uI7+0010000N+0010000N?" for example
[00:40:41] <IrrerIvan> to put x and y on position 10k
[00:40:54] <andypugh> That does look a bit like Gerber
[00:41:10] <IrrerIvan> I don't think it's anything even remote standard
[00:41:56] <andypugh> Does it always go from point-to-point as fast as it can, or are they speed commands?
[00:42:40] <IrrerIvan> limited, you can set the speed per axis and also a duration (i suppose it's duration) for speedup/down
[00:43:42] <andypugh> Well, then you could consider either programming it in that code, or converting G-code (which isn't a great deal more friebdly) into that code.
[00:44:30] <andypugh> Or, possibly, find a CAM package with user-editable post-processors to produce code in that format
[00:44:38] <IrrerIvan> so I should propably for now write a Gcode to WhateverCodeThisIs converter
[00:45:03] <andypugh> Well, only if you thing that G0 X10000 Y10000 is easier that your example.
[00:45:22] <andypugh> And I am not sure it is.
[00:46:02] <andypugh> But you may find G-code examples onlline, and you won't find that pick-and-place code example
[00:47:36] <IrrerIvan> what would I use to generate G-Code?
[00:48:26] <andypugh> A CAM package (or a text editor, for simple stuff)
[00:48:39] <IrrerIvan> any OSS recommendations?
[00:49:20] <andypugh> Some simple stuff here: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Simple_LinuxCNC_G-Code_Generators
[00:50:10] <IrrerIvan> Ok, great, I'll have a look. Is G-Code like one standart or is there a minimal subset of commands that must be supported?
[00:50:18] <andypugh> http://code.google.com/p/heekscnc/
[00:50:59] <andypugh> There are many dialects, but G0 G1 G2 G3 are very standard.
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[00:51:20] <andypugh> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gcode.html
[00:52:30] <andypugh> You could remove the internal "smarts" and just keep the motors, drives and hardware, then fit a miniITX PC and run a less opaque controller.
[00:53:19] <IrrerIvan> Well, I'm going to replace the original boards somday, bot for now I want to get experience with that kind of machinery.
[00:53:46] <IrrerIvan> Thank you very much for the information, now I at least know where to start
[00:59:30] <andypugh> I wonder if an Arduino could do on-the-fly translation?
[00:59:54] <jdh> probably, if it were mostly 1:1 or close.
[01:00:17] <andypugh> I am not sure where the source data would come from, though.
[01:03:08] <jdh> random gcode files on the interwebbes
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[07:51:28] <DJ9DJ> moin
[08:01:18] <theos> o/
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[08:16:13] <Loetmichel> mornin'
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[09:13:23] <Loetmichel> *shitshitshit* my wife has touchdown from america in about 35 minutes... and i have STILL to clean up the kitchen, put the laundry up to dry (when the wahsing machine finishes any time soon) AND have to bath myself before driving 30 minutes to the airport... should have gotten up 2 hours earlier :-(
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[09:37:07] <Jymmm> well, I know one person who aint getting any tonight AND gets to sleep in the dog house too =)
[09:37:23] <Jymmm> but we're not mentioning any names now are we Loetmichel =)
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[09:51:17] <Loetmichel> Jymmm: wouldn be SO sure about that...
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[11:29:17] <mazafaka> I have created a music video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBdig8PiZ64
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[16:34:33] <hdokes|werkin> you want some help with content?
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[16:40:32] <IchGuckLive> Hi all B)
[16:42:13] <IchGuckLive> does a serial encoder also have A/B phases
[16:45:15] <Tom_itx> likely not
[16:45:29] <Tom_itx> it relies on the phase shift to determine direction
[16:46:38] <IchGuckLive> i now got 3 Servos identical with the same encoder problem the datasheet gives me a A/B Z
[16:46:56] <IchGuckLive> but the oszi gives me pulses on all 2 phases
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[16:48:53] <Loetmichel> IchGuckLive: that is the right "modus operandi" for a/b encoders: 2 square signals, 90° phase shifted
[16:49:29] <Loetmichel> both with more or less 50% pulse width
[16:50:16] <IchGuckLive> oh i typet 2 i mean 3 phases the Z in the datasheet is S+/S- in the cable layout
[16:50:47] <IchGuckLive> im now into the 4th week of trying to move a Servo with no luck atall power Error !
[16:51:00] <IchGuckLive> i spend now 300Eur
[16:51:21] <IchGuckLive> servo is a hell of parameters
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[16:53:26] <cncbasher> has the servo driver have built in limit switches or enable
[16:53:57] <yoyoek1> hi
[16:54:06] <cncbasher> most servo drives do
[16:54:20] <IchGuckLive> i did all for testing there is a mode for run without any issue control just push
[16:54:29] <IchGuckLive> yoyoek1: hi
[16:55:03] <IchGuckLive> cncbasher: but as i put the Servo Driver On -> error accure
[16:55:23] <IchGuckLive> AC3 that gives me in the datasheet encoder fail
[16:56:06] <cncbasher> the encoder directly connects to servo driver
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[16:57:16] <cncbasher> then connect the encoder output from the servo driver to emc
[16:57:33] <IchGuckLive> Yaskawa Xtradrive XD-01-mn01-E V3.23 Servo Omron R7m 100030-S1-D
[16:57:43] <cncbasher> have you the servo driver manual
[16:57:49] <IchGuckLive> yes
[16:58:07] <cncbasher> in pdf etc , can you send to me
[16:58:12] <IchGuckLive> i also got the Tool for parameter but not the servo para,eters
[16:58:18] <archivist> are you using original cables or did you make them up
[16:58:24] <yoyoek1> can someone help me with running manuall tool change witch length tool probe ?
[16:59:48] <yoyoek1> or tell how to run ocode from hal file
[17:00:02] <IchGuckLive> cncbasher: http://industrial.omron.eu/en/products/catalogue/motion_and_drives/servo_systems/servo_drives/xtradrive/default.html
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[17:01:05] <IchGuckLive> cncbasher: Servo http://industrial.omron.eu/en/products/catalogue/motion_and_drives/servo_systems/rotary_servo_motors/smartstep/default.html
[17:02:00] <IchGuckLive> yoyoek1: why are you simply not touch of the Z axis with the new tool or do you fgot a toolchanger
[17:02:02] <Tom_itx> yoyoek1, http://gnipsel.com/linuxcnc/g-code/gen05.html
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[17:03:05] <Tom_itx> http://gnipsel.com/linuxcnc/g-code/index.html
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[17:03:51] <yoyoek1> I have amateur machine. tools don't have exact length. I can insert it one time different then other time
[17:04:26] <IchGuckLive> so i guess best to split G-code into Tool parts
[17:04:34] <yoyoek1> I have mounted touch button on exact z height from sufrace
[17:04:47] <Tom_itx> yoyoek1, read those links ^^
[17:05:13] <IchGuckLive> then use G38.1 to set the tollength parameter and call it by G43
[17:05:57] <yoyoek1> IchGuckLive: why not make it automatic. m6 at some point. alert on screen. change tool, click ok, auto probe tool length and work continue
[17:06:17] <Tom_itx> you can do that
[17:06:38] <Tom_itx> if you have fixtures for each tool you can preset them
[17:06:55] <Tom_itx> if you need to manually change tools in the collet each time, you can't
[17:08:01] <Tom_itx> http://gnipsel.com/linuxcnc/g-code/mill02.html
[17:09:12] <yoyoek1> if each time is tool change in gcode file and axis_manualtoolchange.hal is executed why not to add some ocode to reset tool length compensation after making tool length probe
[17:09:42] <IchGuckLive> http://unitaig.jalling.dk/index.php?id=164
[17:10:05] <IchGuckLive> yoyoek1: there is a programm that does it for you subroutines
[17:10:21] <Tom_itx> yoyoek1, they haven't implemented it yet
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[17:10:25] <Tom_itx> you can though
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[17:30:50] <yoyoek1> :( I give up
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[17:32:36] <Tom_itx> like it was suggested, maybe it's easier to break the file up by tool
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[17:38:16] * JT-Shop notes it is faster to square up something on the mill then grind it smooth on the surface grinder...
[17:39:49] <IchGuckLive> JT-Shop: but it looks nicer on the grinder
[17:40:07] * DJ9DJ likes the milling pattern :D
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[17:43:31] <yoyoek1> cu all
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[17:49:18] <IchGuckLive> At all today alot of people mailed in on Airfoil generator that is on the WIKI
[17:49:20] <IchGuckLive> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Simple_LinuxCNC_G-Code_Generators#Airfoil_G_code_Generator_3_4Axis_XY_XYUV_Foam_EDM_Style
[17:49:41] <IchGuckLive> so if someone needs more info on that give him notice how i am
[17:50:12] <IchGuckLive> im alway here 7pm Berlin time
[17:50:24] <IchGuckLive> By F1 starts in the USA
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[17:54:28] <archivist> JT-Shop, the slow cutting time or the set up time :)
[17:55:04] <archivist> I sharpened a cutter yesterday, most of the time was setting up
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[18:00:07] <JT-Shop> I was just squaring a block and it was off more than I thought so it took some time to grind... would have been faster to mill it square then grind a little
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[18:05:42] <cncbasher> ichGuckLive: i fear the encoders you have do not suit the servo drive .. they are resolver encoders and not A/B & Index types
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[18:31:07] <tjb1> Off topic but does anyone know anything about the Nintendo Wii U?
[18:31:44] <archivist> we are geeks, of course not
[18:32:04] <Tom_itx> damn gamers
[18:32:57] <tjb1> Of course
[18:35:08] <tjb1> They dont say anywhere whether the gamepad requires Wi-Fi to work
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[18:38:20] <tjb1> JT-Shop-2: I got the THC to work, im going to add something that if voltage is > x amount from target it will double the correction velocity
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[19:12:01] <sliptonic> I set "move spindle up before tool change" to true in pncconf but it doesn't seem to have an effect. The tool change prompt pops up but the spindle doesn't retract.
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[19:14:05] <skunkworks> sliptonic: check the ini for TOOL_CHANGE_QUILL_UP = 1 in the emcio section TOOL_CHANGE_QUILL_UP = 1
[19:15:51] <sliptonic> skunkworks: There's something there but it's TOOLCHANGE_QUILL_UP = 1. sans the first underscore.
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[19:18:36] <skunkworks> I wonder if it is a bug in pncconf has a bug
[19:19:05] <skunkworks> add the underscore and see if it works
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[19:20:23] <L84Supper> would LinuxCNC benefit from having more functions similar to LabVIEW? or would that just muddle things up here?
[19:20:54] <sliptonic> Yes, that fixes it. I'll check to see if the bug is already reported.
[19:23:43] <L84Supper> http://sine.ni.com/nips/cds/view/p/lang/en/nid/10735 Price: $ 3,698 NI LabVIEW Application Builder for Linux®
[19:28:01] <sliptonic> skunkworks: I added a bug to the tracker. Thanks.
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[19:30:19] <skunkworks> sliptonic: thanks!
[19:30:48] <sliptonic> One more queston: I don't have an encoder on the spindle but I'd like to force linuxcnc to wait a bit for the spindle to come up to speed before doing anything. I'm sure I can rewrite my post processor to insert a dwell but I'd rather not have to rely on that. Any ideas?
[19:31:56] <skunkworks> some sort of timer between the spindle on and the 'at speed' hal pins...
[19:32:13] <skunkworks> sliptonic: is the spindle 1 speed?
[19:32:57] <sliptonic> No, it's controlled from a VFD but I don't mind have a 5 second wait regardless of speed.
[19:35:13] <skunkworks> sliptonic: does the vfd have an 'at speed' output you could hook back into linuxcnc?
[19:35:48] <sliptonic> Good thought. I'll look into it.
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[19:37:06] <skunkworks> otherwise - some of the sample configs have simulated spindles.. I wonder if you could look at them and see if they would work for you (simulate your spindle so that it acts similar)
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[19:38:51] <mhaberler> sliptonic: you could measure the speed with the encoder, and assert spindle-at-speed if the speed is within a window of commanded speed
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[19:40:21] <mhaberler> I use the 'near' comp to do that: http://git.mah.priv.at/gitweb/emc-mill.git/blob/8a30ac3270f3d9fe3790292b2c2d42e97c01d5ba:/fraese-f12-hm2-with-common.hal#l99
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[19:41:29] <sliptonic> mhaberler: Sorry, no encoder on the spindle. The VFD has a frequency output though that I might be able to use.
[19:41:43] <mhaberler> almost as good
[19:42:08] <mhaberler> the frequency probably ramps up too
[19:43:30] <skunkworks> sliptonic: check this out if all else fails... (simulated spindle using lowpass to act as spindle rotational mass..
[19:43:32] <skunkworks> http://git.linuxcnc.org/gitweb?p=linuxcnc.git;a=blob_plain;f=configs/sim/sim_spindle_encoder.hal;hb=HEAD
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[19:44:26] <sliptonic> Cool. Thanks.
[19:45:08] <skunkworks> (also shows how near is used)
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[21:17:42] <sliptonic> The VO from my vfd seems to be exactly what I need. I reads between 0 and 10V and ramps up with the spindle. If I want to read that through the 7i77 I expect I will wire it into one of the input pins on TB8.
[21:19:35] <andypugh> You probably need a divider
[21:20:53] <sliptonic> What's a divider?
[21:21:39] <pcw_home> A divider is not needed with 7I77 inputs (they are really designed for 0-36V)
[21:21:57] <andypugh> Analogue inputs?
[21:23:31] <pcw_home> Yeah the 7I77 analog inputs are just a side effect of the fact that the digital inputs (0-36V) are actuall read as analog inputs so we can set thresholds/hysteresis etc
[21:23:52] <andypugh> Ah, OK.
[21:24:21] <pcw_home> some 7I77 modes allow 4 of the digital inputs to be read as analog (though quite low res)
[21:25:39] <sliptonic> This is a 5i25/7i77 plug-n-go and I haven't messed with modes. Do I need to do anything?
[21:26:18] <andypugh> Possibly change the sserial_port_0= thing in the INI file
[21:26:58] <pcw_home> Yes the first digit needs to be changed to 1 or 2
[21:27:56] <pcw_home> If forget, does the dmesg list show the available modes?
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[21:28:01] <pcw_home> I forget
[21:28:05] <andypugh> No.
[21:28:33] <andypugh> But I guess it could.
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[21:29:48] <pcw_home> it wouls help to see what modes the particular card/firmware version you have supports (new modes tend to get added)
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[21:30:43] <andypugh> no progress at all on firmware updating. Largely because I don't know where to start. I am trying to get a bootable Windows stick to try the other version of your flasher.
[21:30:59] <pcw_home> The 7I77 manual shows the latest modes (including the MPG on I/O modes)
[21:31:01] <pfred1> can Windows run off a flash drive?
[21:31:37] <Tom_itx> not very good but it's been done
[21:31:53] <sliptonic> .hal file "sserial_port_0=000xxxxx " would be "sserial_port_0=100xxxxx " ?
[21:31:55] <pfred1> hmm I'd think it'd be something Microsoft would want to discourage
[21:32:14] <pfred1> they're not too big on the concept of license portability
[21:32:21] <Tom_itx> they're good at discouraging ppl
[21:32:22] <pcw_home> sliptonic: Yeah
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[21:32:49] <andypugh> They don't care about Win98 I don't think
[21:33:11] <pfred1> andypugh it is not that they don't care but I don't think they thought of it then
[21:33:12] <Tom_itx> iirc someone got xp to run on a flash card
[21:33:23] <pfred1> I don't think there were flash drives in 1998
[21:33:45] <andypugh> I am concerned that even if this does end up bootable, all it will do is install Windows
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[21:34:12] <pfred1> andypugh that does seem to be a matter of considerable concern
[21:34:22] <pcw_home> There were flash drives in 1998
[21:34:33] <pfred1> pcw_home are you sure?
[21:34:37] <pfred1> there wasn't even USB then
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[21:34:41] <pcw_home> (we made some)
[21:34:53] <pcw_home> 1992
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[21:34:57] <pcw_home> ISA
[21:35:16] <pfred1> pcw_home we had a cash register with bubble memory back then
[21:35:31] <pfred1> thing was a real POS
[21:36:04] <pcw_home> :-)
[21:36:14] <pfred1> the board had thermal issues so whenever it acted up you'd have to pick it up then drop it sharply to reseat ICs into sockets
[21:36:33] <pfred1> worked like a charm everytime though
[21:37:21] <andypugh> Bah! Still no good.
[21:37:24] <pcw_home> We started with RAMdisks for CPM machines in the 80s, learned never to use cheap sockets
[21:37:38] <pfred1> I'
[21:37:53] <pfred1> I'm talking about 74XX series ICs in DIP sockets
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[21:38:09] <pfred1> whole board was done that way
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[21:38:41] <pcw_home> These were 64K DRAMs IICRC with AMP side wipe tin sockets --> a disaster
[21:39:23] <andypugh> pcw_home: What are my options here? 1) Write the Linux flasher 2)Buy a CD drive + Windows 3)?
[21:39:31] <pfred1> 64K DRAM in the 80s that was state of the art
[21:39:47] <pfred1> things must have been over $100 an IC
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[21:40:05] <pcw_home> andy we can send you a revd 8I20 its probably easier
[21:40:05] <pfred1> today they're not worth their weight in sand but hey
[21:43:01] <pfred1> pcw_home I think andypugh might be the sort that never takes the easy way
[21:43:44] <andypugh> I always take the easiest way. But I might have an unusual way of determining what is easy.
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[21:44:24] <andypugh> In this case I am considering the broader picture, as getting updated boards from PCW isn't going to work for everyone.
[21:44:24] <pfred1> andypugh you're British aren't you?
[21:44:57] <andypugh> I see myself as Yorkshire by nationality.
[21:45:55] <pfred1> andypugh close enough in model making circles British are renowned for taking 3 weeks to manufacture a tool to perform a 5 minute operation with
[21:46:39] <Tom_itx> then put it in a museum?
[21:46:48] <andypugh> Yes, and that makes a lot of sense to me. You might want to make another, and you can afford to mess up the first
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[21:47:17] <pfred1> Tom_itx oh it is often worthy of writing a series of articles about
[21:48:03] <pfred1> I think it is an offshoot of the whole mad dogs and English men syndrome
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[21:59:19] <andypugh> pfred1: You should read "Trustee from the Toolroom" by Neville Shute.
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[21:59:46] <pfred1> andypugh it does sound like something I'd enjoy
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[22:02:01] <Xabster> linuxcnc does not show my HDD during the installation process - is this fixable? There's currenly windows XP on the hdd and that works fine
[22:02:35] <Xabster> also, update frequency or rate of pulses on the parallel port seems quite a bit slower in linuxcnc compared to windows xp
[22:02:48] <pfred1> Xabster do you have an empty partition?
[22:02:49] <Xabster> about 60k hz in win xp and 35k hz in linuxcnc
[22:02:52] <Xabster> no i don't
[22:03:00] <pfred1> then there isn't much to show
[22:03:12] <Xabster> what do you mean? :) why not show the one with stuff on?
[22:03:15] <Xabster> so i can overwrite it?
[22:03:21] <pfred1> you have to repartition some epmty space before you install I think
[22:03:31] <pfred1> oh you want to erase?
[22:03:34] <Xabster> yeah
[22:03:45] <pfred1> yeah I don't think Linux automatically assumes that
[22:04:04] <Xabster> so, what should I do then?
[22:04:13] <Xabster> boot XP and make an empty partion with no files?
[22:04:19] <pfred1> well if it was me I'd rop down into a shell and fdisk the drive
[22:04:31] <andypugh> Xabster: What does the latency test say? 28uS is a fairly slow base thread.
[22:04:33] <Xabster> fdisk -l does not list the drive
[22:05:02] <pfred1> dmesg | grep sda
[22:05:14] <Xabster> andypugh: 11k ns
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[22:05:46] <Xabster> so that's 11uS
[22:06:16] <andypugh> You can probably get 40kHz then, and that's faster than a stepper can run (3000rpm at 4x microstepping)
[22:06:31] <pfred1> I tried to test that command on my box but my dmesg is spammed with some USB message now
[22:06:56] <Xabster> hmm
[22:07:09] <pfred1> andypugh that is faster than I've ever managed to run a stepper motor
[22:07:23] <pfred1> I've done 2,500 RPM but that is it
[22:07:38] <Xabster> *
[22:07:41] <andypugh> I don't think I have managed to get one over 1000rpm, and it's nearer 600 under load.
[22:07:51] <Xabster> how do you make | character on english keyboard? :/
[22:08:03] <pfred1> yeah 600 is I mean connected to a lead screw how fast do I really want to go?
[22:08:09] <andypugh> It depends on the keyboard.
[22:08:47] <pfred1> I need to take new pictures of my Y axis I think it is starting to look pretty cool
[22:08:53] <andypugh> Even with UK keyboards it moves around when I VNC or SSH into other machines, or run a VM or..
[22:09:18] <pfred1> I'm going to pop a shot right now who wants to see?
[22:16:35] <Xabster> andypugh: 40khz at 4 microstep with a motor that needs 800 steps per round how does it give 3000 rpm? :)
[22:17:10] <pfred1> 800 steps per rev?
[22:17:14] <andypugh> 40000 / 800 * 60 ?
[22:17:28] <pfred1> 200 is common
[22:17:33] <Xabster> oh i see lol
[22:17:37] <Xabster> you're absolutely correct
[22:17:45] <pfred1> that is a 1.8 degree motor
[22:18:02] <Xabster> anyway, i had to change keyboard layout but finally did that dmesg command - it lists the USB drive
[22:18:11] <Xabster> that I'm live-booting from
[22:18:16] <pfred1> yeah it should show the HDD too
[22:18:47] <pfred1> well sda is the first HDD
[22:19:26] <Xabster> yeah, but it only lists the usb info
[22:19:43] <pfred1> sdf is the flash drive
[22:20:07] <andypugh> I have a vague feeling I have heard of this problem before. But I can't remember the cause.
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[22:20:29] <andypugh> It's likely to be a LiveCD problem not a LinuxCNC one
[22:20:46] <pfred1> I know cable select can mess with Linux when it comes to IDE CD-ROM drives
[22:20:50] <Xabster> but the installation process also can't see the hdd
[22:20:55] <Xabster> it's SATA
[22:21:04] <pfred1> yeah that shouldn't affect sata
[22:21:32] <andypugh> Anything here?
[22:21:32] <pfred1> could be some bios setting Linux doesn't like
[22:21:33] <andypugh> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1913062
[22:23:04] <pfred1> I've also heard some Linux kernels don't recognize some hardware IDs properly
[22:25:16] <L84Supper> heh, are bearing in ballscrew blocks supposed to have detents?
[22:25:28] <Aero-Tec> update on my lathe
[22:25:54] <andypugh> L84Supper: Is that a rhetorical question?
[22:26:12] <Aero-Tec> many of you could not understand why 2.4 would work and 2.5 would not work
[22:26:23] <Aero-Tec> I to wondered why that was
[22:26:27] <pfred1> L84Supper the detents make the balls fly further when you tee them off
[22:26:28] <L84Supper> andypugh: not only the wrong size but brand new bad bearings ... 3 of 4 anyway
[22:27:00] <Aero-Tec> as it turns out the lather motor had a short to ground, it started to smoke
[22:27:41] <andypugh> Ah, yes, causing shorts to ground probably needs to go in the 2.5.1 release notes.
[22:27:42] <Xabster> i just tried plugging in another USB stick simultaneously with the liveusb stick - now fdisk -l shows that drive *only* and not the other one
[22:28:12] <pfred1> Xabster did you MD5sum the image you downloaded or verify it?
[22:28:12] <L84Supper> I wonder if the QC at Keling is starting to slip?
[22:28:26] <Xabster> no, but i highly doubt that is the problem
[22:28:32] <Xabster> the OS is running fine
[22:28:32] <pfred1> most installers give a verification option on install
[22:28:53] <Aero-Tec> theory being that the motor had just recently started to short as I have used it with out any problems till about the time I updated EMC, I started to smell something hot but no smoke yet
[22:29:02] <pfred1> I've had faulty ones seem to run fine too
[22:29:14] <pfred1> heck I've installed from them
[22:29:27] <pfred1> but they still failed their check
[22:29:42] <Aero-Tec> I am not blaming 2.5 for the motor going bad
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[22:30:22] <Aero-Tec> it would just explain maybe why things that worked in 2.4 would not work in 2.5, it just happened to happen about the same time
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[22:30:57] <Xabster> i haven't installed any updates at all because i plan on not connecting it to the internet ever
[22:31:02] <Xabster> do you think updates would fix it?
[22:31:04] <Aero-Tec> just fluke luck or not lucky depending on how you look at it
[22:31:36] <pfred1> Xabster you're running live in RAM?
[22:31:45] <Xabster> from an USB stick
[22:32:01] <pfred1> Xabster off the USB live it runs in an image in your RAM
[22:32:23] <pfred1> I know 1 GB RAM isn't enough to do an update too :)
[22:32:28] <L84Supper> does Menards or Ace H.W. know what fasteners cost in the real world? $1.15 ea for 6mm x16 socket head screws!?
[22:32:31] <Xabster> kay
[22:32:42] <pfred1> because I've made that mistake myself
[22:32:48] <L84Supper> they better be Titanium
[22:32:49] <Xabster> but even if i did update it, how do i find my hdd in the installation process?
[22:32:51] <Xabster> :{­
[22:33:07] <Jymmm> L84Supper: Yes, but you can buy only one if you want =)
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[22:33:32] <pfred1> yeah it sounds like you're not loading the kernel module for your hard drive so to fix that you'd need to reboot and you'd lose your live update doing that
[22:34:28] <Jymmm> L84Supper: You're paying for the convenience.
[22:34:34] <pfred1> ah here is mine 00:1f.2 SATA controller: Intel Corporation 82801IR/IO/IH (ICH9R/DO/DH) 6 port SATA AHCI Controller (rev 02)
[22:34:42] <L84Supper> I just ran short today and thought I'd pick up a few..... at least they are individually wrapped
[22:34:44] <pfred1> Xabster type lspci see if you see yours
[22:35:09] <Aero-Tec> do any of you think it could be the shorting of the motor to ground that started to make things that worked for years before not work later?
[22:35:57] <Aero-Tec> it may have been a good thing as it made me upgrade the electronics to be better
[22:35:58] <Xabster> pfred1: no controller
[22:36:02] <pfred1> Aero-Tec yes
[22:36:11] <pfred1> Xabster yeah I am a good guesser
[22:36:22] <Aero-Tec> but turning the spindle on was what made things go nuts
[22:36:27] <Xabster> how do i fix that? :)
[22:36:38] <pfred1> it depends what is causing it
[22:36:59] <pfred1> like i said some kernels omitted some hardware IDs
[22:37:19] <L84Supper> Aero-Tec: sure, over time the coils flex, the insulation wears.... I've seen winding just fine cold then short as the motor heats up
[22:37:19] <pfred1> or your image might just be corrupt
[22:37:25] <Xabster> how feasible is it to run 12.04 and just install some CNC tools?
[22:37:59] <pfred1> test the image make sure it is OK
[22:38:03] <L84Supper> solder joints flex, melt, crack etc as well
[22:38:09] <pfred1> because if it isn't that is the easiest thing to fix
[22:38:57] <pfred1> Xabster I've scratch built LInuxCNC and it isn't always a completely trivial process
[22:39:33] <pfred1> which is to say you're a lot better off going with the bootable image
[22:39:45] <andypugh> Xabster: LinuxCNC won't currently run on anything later than 10.04.
[22:40:01] <Xabster> hmm :/
[22:40:15] <pfred1> andypugh because of the kernel RTAI builds gainst?
[22:40:18] <andypugh> But if you do install 10.04 suggesffully then there is a script available to install LinuxCNC and the correct kernel
[22:40:28] <Aero-Tec> I found a fault in construction, one of the insulating strips they put in to protect the wire from the steel case was missing, so the wire was right up against the steel and over time wore out and shorted
[22:40:33] <pfred1> ah some other limit?
[22:40:35] <andypugh> Yes, no RTAI for the later kernels yet
[22:41:02] <andypugh> I believe you can run 12.04 on the older kernel, with some fiddling.
[22:41:26] <pfred1> yeah I run 2.6.30
[22:41:48] <pfred1> which wnen i built mine was the latest kernel RTAI would build against
[22:41:56] <Xabster> andypugh, are you suggesting that i download and install a regular 10.04 and then when that is done I run a script to modify it into a linuxcnc kernel and tools?
[22:42:13] <pfred1> Xabster you're best off making the CD image work
[22:42:13] <L84Supper> is the latest that RTAI supports, but it doesn't work with Linuxcnc yet
[22:42:21] <andypugh> Xabster: If that turns out to work any better, yes.
[22:42:49] <Xabster> pfred1: i'm not sure how i'd go about "making it work" when it doesn't see my SATA controller
[22:43:07] <pfred1> then everything works like how everyone expects it to and you can get the best support
[22:43:19] <pfred1> have you verfied the image yet?
[22:43:25] <Xabster> it's running
[22:43:28] <pfred1> OK
[22:43:28] <andypugh> Xabster: Middle section of this page: http://www.linuxcnc.org/index.php/english/download/21?task=view
[22:43:36] <pfred1> hope it comes up bad
[22:43:49] <pfred1> then your fix is easy
[22:43:55] <Xabster> thanks, andypugh and yes, pfred1 i am hoping that
[22:44:13] <pfred1> or you're going to have to do some real hacking to fix it
[22:44:20] <andypugh> However, I think that the LinuxCNC live CD is very similar to the normal LiveCD, so that might fail too.
[22:44:24] <Xabster> they match
[22:44:48] <pfred1> andypugh it would do the same thing if it has the same hardware ID oversight problem
[22:45:14] <pfred1> as i understand it the drivers are in there but if the IDs don't match they just don't load
[22:45:45] <pfred1> so you have to hack the source include the missing IDs and rebuild the kernel
[22:45:47] <Xabster> i'm screwed then :[
[22:46:00] <pfred1> then put it all together with the image
[22:46:09] <pfred1> yeah it is a lot of work
[22:46:37] <L84Supper> anybody have experience with http://www.nbb-bearing.com/ or http://www.ixinbearing.com/?
[22:46:56] <pfred1> I'm a vxb kind of guy myself
[22:47:52] <L84Supper> the ones above are Chinese manufacturers, not distis
[22:48:15] <pfred1> Xabster yeah then you probably have the kind of hardware that the kernel is missing the IDs of
[22:48:26] <Xabster> ;((
[22:49:04] <pfred1> I wonder if there is a way to tell for sure?
[22:49:09] <pfred1> hmm try this
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[22:49:57] <pfred1> Xabster apt-get install hwinfo
[22:50:42] <Xabster> and then? :)
[22:51:17] <pfred1> OK now run sudo hwinfo > info.txt
[22:51:21] <pfred1> it should take a bit
[22:51:34] <Xabster> what should i look for?
[22:51:46] <pfred1> grep -i sata info.txt
[22:51:58] <pfred1> does it say anything?
[22:52:39] <Xabster> it doesn't no, and neither does it on the same distro in a VM running under windows 7
[22:52:43] <Xabster> (i got 2 machines)
[22:53:55] <pfred1> yeah I've never had this problem so I'm not sure what the symptoms should be it is only something I've read about
[22:54:07] <Xabster> i appreciate the suggestions
[22:54:28] <pfred1> but it is like your machine doesn't even have a sata controller in it
[22:54:44] <Xabster> well, it's found in bios, and windows XP boots from it
[22:54:52] <pfred1> it has to be that hardware ID thing I heard about
[22:55:25] <pfred1> the thing is if Linux doesn't get some hardware ID strings it doesn't load modules for hardware and a lot of other subsystems don't get loaded either
[22:55:34] <pfred1> everything is very dynamic today with Linux and hardware
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[22:56:25] <pfred1> I can't say as I even completely understand how it works today other than it is complicated
[22:56:41] <pfred1> and i don't like to mess with it
[22:56:49] <pfred1> it has to do with udev
[22:57:37] <pfred1> but yeah if the kernel isn't getting those ID keys it recognizes it is like you don't have the hardware
[22:58:11] <pfred1> do you know what chipset your motherboard has?
[23:00:17] <pfred1> on my machine my USB controller is the same as my SATA controller
[23:01:40] <Xabster> Intel® H61 Express
[23:03:43] <pfred1> well nothing is jumping out about any issues with it
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[23:08:10] <pfred1> Xabster I think you may be the first person on Earth having a problem loading the sata drivers for that chipset
[23:08:22] <Xabster> heh
[23:08:39] <pfred1> I see people trying to load the video the sound but no one trying to load for the sata
[23:09:02] <pfred1> I'm trying to see if we can just force a modprobe kernel module load
[23:09:13] <pfred1> but I don't know the name of the module to load
[23:09:56] <pfred1> if i can find the name and it just works (TM) you might be able to go on your merry way from there
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[23:11:22] <Aero-Tec> it feels good to now know what was making my lathe go nuts, not nice I have to replace motor but it is good that I now know why things went nuts like that did, and why a fix worked one time and then stopped working as the sort got worse
[23:11:53] <Xabster> :/
[23:11:55] <Aero-Tec> there was a large temperature drop about the time things went bad
[23:11:58] <Xabster> i don't like being the only one
[23:12:09] <Xabster> it's a very new motherboard
[23:12:24] <pfred1> Xabster if it was a big issue I'd be seeing it
[23:12:50] <Aero-Tec> I am thinking that it was just barely shorting before and was making problems but when it got real cold that made it much worse
[23:13:11] <pfred1> Aero-Tec how cold?
[23:14:17] <Aero-Tec> close to freezing, but hings were very warm for the time of year just before the big drop
[23:14:30] <pfred1> do you heat the space?
[23:14:37] <pfred1> like do you cycle hot and cold?
[23:14:57] <pfred1> Xabster I found a page i think I'm going to find the info i need on
[23:15:27] <Aero-Tec> I keep it from freezing over night and warn it some when I am in there working, but not like it would be if I had a wood burning stove in there
[23:15:46] <pfred1> ah ha!
[23:15:54] <Aero-Tec> it is heated with a electric heater so I try to keep the cost down
[23:15:58] <pfred1> Xabster try this sudo modprobe ahci
[23:16:32] <pfred1> Aero-Tec is it damp by you or pretty dry?
[23:16:51] <pfred1> condensation can be wicked going from cold to heated and back again
[23:16:59] <Aero-Tec> I would like wood heat but the insurance guys do not like it and charge through the nose for it, if they will allow it at all
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[23:17:43] <pfred1> Xabster how did that modprobe go?
[23:17:45] <Aero-Tec> we are about 100 yard from a very large lake, so it is damp
[23:18:08] <pfred1> Aero-Tec well are you seeing any other signs of condensation?
[23:18:22] <Aero-Tec> that is a good point and yes we have lots of condensation here
[23:18:32] <Xabster> pfred1, please hold on :)
[23:18:37] <pfred1> yeah sometimes it isn't worth heat sysling
[23:18:43] <pfred1> cycling even
[23:19:05] <pfred1> I did it a season and stuff rusted so bad on me
[23:19:16] <Aero-Tec> you have a good point
[23:19:26] <pfred1> but I was also using kerosene heat which makes it worse
[23:19:38] <pfred1> one thing you may be able to do is run a fan
[23:19:41] <Aero-Tec> I oil the hell out of things to keep the rust at bay
[23:19:53] <pfred1> try waxing things it isn't as messy
[23:20:02] <pfred1> I wax stuff like pliers
[23:20:22] <pfred1> I use like a car paste wax I guess it is
[23:20:35] <Aero-Tec> cool idea
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[23:20:41] <Aero-Tec> will have to try it
[23:20:47] <pfred1> I don't wax the insides of the jaws but you know the outside parts
[23:20:48] <Aero-Tec> does it work well for you?
[23:20:57] <pfred1> hey try it I think it is nice
[23:21:06] <Aero-Tec> will do
[23:21:08] <pfred1> I don't want like my electronics pliers all oily dirty
[23:21:11] <Aero-Tec> thanks for the tip
[23:21:22] <pfred1> but i don't want them rusty either
[23:21:45] <pfred1> I live in delaware so I'm out in the middle of the ocean so stuff really rusts here
[23:22:16] <pfred1> I use clear spray paint on a lot of stuff too
[23:22:36] <pfred1> that is more obtrusive than just waxing
[23:22:51] <pfred1> but I can't spend my whole life wire wheeling rust
[23:23:04] <Aero-Tec> lol for sure
[23:23:30] <pfred1> even oiling can be a lot if mainteinence I find waxing can last longer
[23:23:30] <Aero-Tec> I have just light surface rust
[23:23:37] <Aero-Tec> nothing to bad
[23:23:39] <pfred1> yeah clean it good then wax
[23:23:51] <pfred1> it stops that kind of thing pretty good
[23:24:59] <pfred1> I also find polished surfaces can resist rusting better then rougher does
[23:25:08] <pfred1> less pores or something I don't know
[23:25:08] <Aero-Tec> good point about condensation may have played a roll in the shorting
[23:25:34] <pfred1> yeah heating your shop the air can get heavy with moisture then when it gets cold it all condenses out
[23:26:11] <pfred1> I've heard about people using fans to stop it from happening
[23:26:23] <Aero-Tec> I hope I can get a new motor tomorrow
[23:26:28] <pfred1> the air circulation inhibits condensation from forming
[23:26:39] <Xabster> pfred1: a regular ubuntu 10.04 sees the controller and i'm installing now
[23:26:57] <pfred1> Xabster it will tell us what needs to be done to make LinuxCNC to work
[23:27:07] <pfred1> we were operating blind itherwise
[23:27:21] <pfred1> it is hard to see something that just isn't thee
[23:27:21] <Aero-Tec> automation direct has one that would work for $153, but I need one right now and can not afford the time needed for shipping
[23:27:46] <Aero-Tec> so hope to get one locally but will pay dearly for it
[23:28:08] <pfred1> Xabster once it works do this command lspci -vvv
[23:29:20] <jdh> been diving?
[23:29:25] <Xabster> pfred1: im confused now
[23:29:38] <Xabster> i no longer have the linuxcnc running, i'm installing 10.04 normal ubuntu
[23:29:38] <jdh> <urk>
[23:29:39] <Aero-Tec> thanks again for the help every one gave me working on getting my lathe up and running again
[23:30:08] <pfred1> Aero-Tec your problem was difficult
[23:30:29] <pfred1> you made a change that had nothing to do with your problem but it is often assumed the last change is a cause
[23:30:57] <pfred1> that is a dangerous assumption to make often right but when it is wrong it leads you down a path
[23:31:50] <pfred1> whenever I troubleshoot I try not to make any assumptions
[23:32:18] <Aero-Tec> I sure hope a new motor will be the last of my problems and I can get back to making chips
[23:32:25] <jdh> so, if you have a problem and change one thing, and it gets better, you don't assume that was the fix.
[23:33:07] <pfred1> jdh it may be only part of a fix
[23:33:33] <pfred1> you may have 2 problems
[23:33:40] <pfred1> it happens
[23:35:09] <pfred1> all I'm saying is cause and effect can easily be misinterpreted
[23:35:40] <pfred1> it is the basis of all religion today
[23:35:45] <andypugh> pfred1: http://xkcd.com/552/
[23:35:53] <jdh> or correlation doesn't imply causatgion.
[23:36:14] <Aero-Tec> I believe that as the short got worse it effected more and more of my lathe, I blamed the problem on the higher switching speed of the new drives, I now thing that the drive were the most sensitive to the arcing motor and really did not need to be replaced
[23:36:30] <jdh> I almost always love xkcd
[23:36:42] <pfred1> intermittent problems are really exasperating
[23:36:53] <andypugh> VFDs can stress the insulation on motors. A common-mode choke is a really good idea.
[23:37:02] <jdh> I also love theatheistpig.com
[23:37:02] <Aero-Tec> but when I did other things needed fixing, partly from the higher switching speeds but also from the short getting worse
[23:37:23] <pfred1> andypugh isn't it true that not all motors get along with VFD control?
[23:38:05] <Aero-Tec> as the short got worse it effected other thing in the lathe till things started to smoke and the real base problem finally showed up
[23:38:49] <pfred1> I've just seen a lot of people get caught in troubleshooting traps
[23:39:07] <pfred1> those same people don't seem to be able to fix stuff either
[23:39:16] <andypugh> You can get motors which are VFD-rated, which implies that others might not be, though I have read that any modern insulation ought to be OK>
[23:39:33] <pfred1> ye3ah I've heard of special VFD motors too
[23:39:54] <Aero-Tec> inverter rated motors
[23:40:07] <Aero-Tec> automation direct has them
[23:40:11] <pfred1> then again I've heard of companies that like to charge as much as they can for whatever they can too
[23:41:54] <pfred1> for sure there are motors rated for different power factors and duty cycles etc.
[23:43:21] -!- tjb1 [tjb1!~tjb1@] has joined #linuxcnc
[23:44:22] <pfred1> humans have the innate ability to draw parallels where none exist
[23:44:45] <jdh> my cat does that also.
[23:44:52] <Aero-Tec> lol
[23:45:03] <pfred1> mone too he seems to think if he bits me he'll get rewarded
[23:46:52] <Aero-Tec> well things were working good for years, then things started to be intermittent, and erratic in the motors, they would growl, some time more some times none
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[23:47:40] <pfred1> Aero-Tec I had a problem with my first car it'd run fine then some nights it would have "the problem"
[23:48:15] <pfred1> one day after a really bad manifestation of "the problem" I'd had enough
[23:48:35] <pfred1> I was like I'm going to find it and fix it even if i have to tear every wire out of it!
[23:49:04] <Aero-Tec> they would sometime run smooth and fast, other time very slow and noisy, some time just one or the other some time both
[23:49:15] <pfred1> turned out I didn't have to go too far it was the power lead off the alternator the nut on the stud had come loose so the rinf terminal was making poor contact
[23:49:42] <Aero-Tec> but the problem always happened in one direction only
[23:50:01] <pfred1> Aero-Tec did the direction have anything to do with it?
[23:51:29] <Aero-Tec> but the DRO always ran at the right speed, no matter what the drives were doing, and the drives would not error out, even tho they were way out of position from where they should be
[23:51:53] <pfred1> DRo on its own power supply?
[23:52:42] <pfred1> like was the DRO completely separate?
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[23:53:33] <Aero-Tec> yes, it was if the dir pin was low or was it high, not sure but it was the same on both axis, if the dir was the right it would actup
[23:54:20] <Aero-Tec> emc/ mach dro
[23:54:39] <pfred1> ah so it wasn't a separate bolt on unit
[23:55:11] <pfred1> stepper or servo I'm guessing cervo
[23:55:16] <pfred1> servo even
[23:55:30] <JT-Shop> I was wondering if that was a Mexican servo
[23:56:03] <Aero-Tec> the key was the dir input to the drives, say the problem showed up with a low sig to the dir, then both axis would show intermittent problems in the low sig dir
[23:56:29] <Aero-Tec> servo
[23:57:23] <pfred1> I'm no servo expert but as I understand it the control feedback loop in servo systems is separate from the power side of the motor
[23:57:28] <Aero-Tec> I did beef up grounding and that fixed it for a ew hours
[23:57:42] <Aero-Tec> yes
[23:57:49] <pcw_home> DRO just shows where it thinks the drives are. no error checking or feedback with step/dir
[23:57:54] <Aero-Tec> few hours
[23:58:07] <Aero-Tec> true
[23:58:07] <jdh> ok, I'll let you keep it.
[23:58:20] <pfred1> pcw_home but it thinks based on sensor readings doesn't it?
[23:58:42] <Aero-Tec> but the drives should have errored
[23:59:17] <pfred1> which is better than open loop stepper DRO
[23:59:18] <pcw_home> well with step/dir servos if you get an extra noise generated step none is the wiser (but position is off)
[23:59:29] <pcw_home> no-one
[23:59:51] <Aero-Tec> the problem started small and built up as time went on, effecting more and more systems till the smoke showed the true problem