#linuxcnc | Logs for 2012-05-12

[00:01:16] <pfred1> I went through a town that was on the map and you could have tied all the shacks together in it and they would have been smaller than my house but it was on the map!
[00:01:57] <skorket> hmm, my stepper motor seems to very minutely 'jitter' every 5 seconds. I'm using an a4988 allegro stepper driver. I looked at the driving signal (arduino+grbl) and I can't see it sending any pulses. Any suggestions on what's going on or how to debug?
[00:02:09] <djdelorie> maybe it's bored?
[00:02:29] <pfred1> skorket you're using microstepping?
[00:02:55] <skorket> pfred1, yes
[00:03:14] <pfred1> yeah allegro's implementation of microstepping leaves some to be desired
[00:03:16] -!- Keknom has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
[00:03:42] <skorket> that sucks...
[00:03:52] <pfred1> that is how a lot of folks feel about it
[00:03:55] <skorket> so, it's probably normal and I'm just going to have to live with it?
[00:04:04] * Jymmm is bored and sets djdelorie's CNC boards on fire and grabs the marshmellows!
[00:04:12] <pfred1> their steps are off by 40% in microstepping
[00:04:22] <skorket> any suggestions on what stepper motor driver I should be using
[00:04:23] <djdelorie> wouldn't be the first smoke off those boards. Or the second.
[00:04:27] <skorket> christ
[00:04:27] <pfred1> so that play could be the cause of your jitter
[00:04:45] <pfred1> well it isn't cumulative error
[00:05:09] <pfred1> one revolution is still one rev but in that rev things tend to go here and there
[00:05:27] <skorket> it makes a difference for things, though, right? I mean, if you're rounding corners or whatever else
[00:05:38] <pfred1> ah
[00:05:50] <pfred1> would depend on your lead screw I guess
[00:05:50] <Jymmm> Heh, allegro's are VERY heat sensative - need LOTS of cooling!
[00:06:11] <skorket> Jymmm, do you think the jitter is caused by overheating?
[00:06:19] <pfred1> I love how allegro deals with current limiting
[00:06:26] <Jymmm> skorket: do you have a fan and heatsinks?
[00:06:29] <skorket> no
[00:06:36] <Jymmm> skorket: fan?
[00:06:40] <skorket> nope
[00:06:41] <Jymmm> skorket: heatsink?
[00:06:44] <skorket> nothing
[00:06:57] <Jymmm> I'd be surprised that you haven't fried it yet
[00:06:59] <skorket> I mean, I could scrounge something up, but nothing attached to the allegro
[00:07:01] <pfred1> how big a motor are you using? like how much current?
[00:07:15] <skorket> 1.7 A
[00:07:20] <pfred1> my allegro ICs run cool to me
[00:07:35] <pfred1> I put very small heatsinks on them
[00:08:13] <pfred1> skorket 1.7 A is no small potatoes for that driver IC how did you setup your current limiting?
[00:08:24] <skorket> ok, well this suggests two tests that I could do: 1) cool it down to see if that helps and 2) turn off microstepping and see if the jitter goes away
[00:08:26] <Jymmm> skorket: what voltage?
[00:08:30] <skorket> 24V
[00:08:42] <skorket> pfred1, no current limiting?
[00:08:45] <pfred1> forget the volts if you were over on that you'd know it
[00:09:05] <Jymmm> pfred1: Well,there's BEMF too
[00:09:14] <djdelorie> over volts = FZZT, over current = MELT
[00:09:16] <Jymmm> max iirc is 30V including bemf
[00:09:22] <pfred1> you'd still know it because the magical smoke would have come out
[00:09:50] <pfred1> yeah i think the a4s are like 36V max?
[00:09:51] <Jymmm> pfred1: Mine didn't, just stopped, replaced under warranrty
[00:09:54] <andypugh> 24V stopped motor would have let out the magic smoke without current limiting.
[00:10:20] <pfred1> andypugh I think they might just be getting lucky
[00:10:24] <djdelorie> even my 160V motors need current limiting at as little as 24V
[00:10:35] <Jymmm> skorket: any caps?
[00:10:37] <robin_sz> djdelorie, do you have 5 minutes?
[00:10:52] <djdelorie> I even have a new 5 minutes every 5 minutes... ;-)
[00:10:57] <skorket> I'm getting confused, you're saying that having my motor sitting idle connected directly to the a4988 at 24v will cause it to ruin the allegro?
[00:10:57] <pfred1> there has to be some kind of current limiting on the driver
[00:11:09] <pfred1> I am not sure if it'd run at all without it
[00:11:22] <djdelorie> skorket: the driver should do current limiting, I haven't seen one that doesn't
[00:11:29] <pfred1> skorket stepper motors draw the most current holding
[00:11:32] <skorket> Jymmm, no caps. I am using a carrier board (I bought it from pololu: http://www.pololu.com/catalog/product/1182)
[00:11:39] <robin_sz> djdelorie, im probably missing something, but lets take a basic concept ... a TL072 opamp, smd, reflow pads
[00:11:41] <andypugh> I am fairly sure that current limiting is one fundamental job of any stepper driver.
[00:12:21] <pfred1> zllegros use a pot to set your current limit it is pretty nice
[00:12:23] <Jymmm> skorket: In general unless you have set it otherwise, steppers at idle can still draw 100% current as "holding torque" to prevent the motor from turning. Many let you reduce "idle current" to something like 50%, 25%, etc.
[00:12:36] <pfred1> I think it is like a voltage divider
[00:12:41] <robin_sz> djdelorie, iv placed a dual opamp on my schematic, now ... where do I tell the layout thing is a texas TL072, smd for relfow?
[00:12:50] <djdelorie> robin_sz: either PM me or go to #geda on oftc.net, to be nice to the regulars here :-)
[00:13:06] <skorket> ok
[00:13:13] <robin_sz> ok, I'll PM you
[00:13:25] <pfred1> electronics is related to CNC
[00:13:25] <andypugh> djdelorie: Well, actually, I was reading with interest,
[00:13:40] <djdelorie> well, if you all insist, impromptu geda tutorial session! :-)
[00:13:50] <skorket> at any rate, do you guys have any suggestions on a stepper motor driver for a beginner like me that will power my 1.7A steppers?
[00:13:58] <skorket> is the a4988 good enough?
[00:14:07] <andypugh> Probbaly
[00:14:07] <robin_sz> skorket, gecko ;)
[00:14:13] <pfred1> skorket I like the chinese TB6560 boards today if you just treat them right
[00:14:24] <djdelorie> in gschem, select the part and "ee" to edit it. Add a footprint= attribute that indicates the correct footprint (TSSOP8, SO8, etc, depending on the chip)
[00:14:24] <Jymmm> skorket: As general knowledge, this is a great read (2 or 3 times to get what he's saying helps) http://www.geckodrive.com/media/wysiwyg/Step%20Motor%20Basics%20Guide.pdf
[00:14:25] <andypugh> It can't be more fragile than a TB650
[00:14:58] <pfred1> andypugh Toshiba started it with their max volts claim and the chinese perpetuate the myth
[00:15:03] <Jymmm> skorket: There is a LOT of information in there, it's easy to miss a lot of it.
[00:15:07] <djdelorie> the tools don't care where you got the chip, just the mapping from symbol pin numbers to footprint pin numbers
[00:15:21] <pfred1> andypugh as long as you don't over volt them they're OK
[00:15:29] <djdelorie> Warning: the "transistor problem" may require you to make a custom symbol if your part's pin numbering doesn't match the common numbering
[00:15:58] <djdelorie> you may add *additional* attributes for your own benefit, or for the BOM tools to use, but pcb doesn't care about those.
[00:16:06] <robin_sz> djdelorie, OK, but I care, because I dont want to have to go through every datasheet, manually changing pins, I sort of expect my design tool to know about common chips and pinouts
[00:16:13] <skorket> thanks all. The gecko systems seem a little pricey
[00:16:20] <pfred1> skorket this is my TB6560 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHPKaHLzXes
[00:16:36] <Tom_itx> skorket they're nice
[00:16:52] <djdelorie> geda doesn't have that kind of a library. We refer to that as a "heavy symbol" library, where you have one symbol per part number, with all the info filled in.
[00:16:58] <robin_sz> yes
[00:17:03] <djdelorie> The alternative is a "light symbol" library where you fill in all the data each time.
[00:17:04] <robin_sz> it doesnt have that?
[00:17:07] <robin_sz> right
[00:17:15] <andypugh> skorket: 3x the price, 50% better. To make up arbitrary numbers. But how much is that 50% worth to you?
[00:17:22] <djdelorie> Common is a hybrid library, where you take light symbols, annotate them, and store them by part number
[00:17:29] <robin_sz> its ok you can stop there
[00:17:35] <robin_sz> you told me all I need to know
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[00:18:00] <robin_sz> thanks :)
[00:18:06] <djdelorie> for LSI parts, something like djboxsym or tragesym lets you make a box-style symbol very quickly
[00:18:14] <skorket> yeah, that's always the equation. I bought 3 a4988's from pololu and in my ignorance I think I already fried 2. Would it have been better to just buy an expensive driver that I couldn't screw up to begin with? Now? It's always a gamble and trade off
[00:18:19] <robin_sz> its ok, i removed it, its not for me
[00:18:20] <djdelorie> most of those map to standard footprints anyway, so minimal effort
[00:18:33] <pfred1> skorket you can screw up any stepper driver
[00:18:41] <skorket> pfred1, is that 3.5A per axis? or total?
[00:18:53] <pfred1> skorket each motor driver
[00:19:15] <pfred1> skorket but who said i was just going to use one an axis?
[00:19:25] <andypugh> As far as I know, no stepper driver can handle the motor being disconnected while it is live.
[00:19:41] <pfred1> andypugh maybe something out there can but I never heard about it
[00:19:46] <robin_sz> im definitely a "heavy library" sort of guy
[00:20:19] <pfred1> skorket yeah never ever disconnect a motor wire from your driver while your driver has power going to ie
[00:20:28] <robin_sz> andypugh, mariss claimed his new drive was up to that
[00:20:42] <skorket> pfred1, thanks. Maybe that's how I fried the other two, I just don't know what I did
[00:20:48] <Tom_itx> that's what i read but i'm not gonna try it
[00:20:51] <robin_sz> andypugh, fully protected agaisnt all sorts of lunacy
[00:20:55] <pfred1> robin_sz it would pay mariss to develop something like that because most of his customer base are idiots
[00:20:56] <andypugh> robin_sz: I amagine you could make your own library. As I said earlier, even the packages with enormous libraries seem to have none of the parts I ever use.
[00:20:56] <djdelorie> the problem is, there aren't enough engineers in the world to maintain a "heavy" library that covers everything. The TL072, even just the TI versions, come in 14 different variants at Digikey alone.
[00:21:24] -!- cylly2 [cylly2!cylly@p54B12037.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #linuxcnc
[00:21:58] <robin_sz> andypugh, I could, but eagle for exmaple has a comprehensive library that 90% of the time has something I can use, having to basically look every part up on a datasheet and make it yourself .. I might as well get out the letraset and a dlao pen
[00:22:08] <djdelorie> and a third package that digikey doesn't stock...
[00:22:24] <djdelorie> and a ten-pin "U" package.
[00:22:29] <andypugh> I found eagle equally useless. YMMV.
[00:22:30] <Tom_itx> switch distributors
[00:22:44] <pfred1> skorket the coils in stepper motors store current so kind of like a car's ignition coil they can send a pulse when you break the circuit
[00:23:26] <robin_sz> im sure it works for some people, but not for me, I dont mind making up the odd missing package, or cloning an package to tweak it, but strating effectively with no packages is weird, and its significantly diffeerent from most other pCB tools ive used to make it too much of a learning effort
[00:23:27] <skorket> pfred1, but wouldn't that be the motor's problem and not the driver board?
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[00:23:39] <djdelorie> the TL072 is a standard dual op-amp, though. Use the standard symbol, att SO8 or DIP8 as the footprint, done.
[00:23:43] <pfred1> what i hate is making a library element then later finding it in the library
[00:23:51] <Tom_itx> hah
[00:23:54] <jdhNC> andypugh: I got that Rittal enclosure you found on eBay for $75 shipped.
[00:23:58] <robin_sz> djdelorie, and dip8 is a smd reflow footprint?
[00:23:59] <pfred1> skorket not at all the pulse goes into the driver
[00:24:03] <jdhNC> pfred1: I have made one footprint. then found it.
[00:24:08] <Tom_itx> jdhNC cool
[00:24:25] <djdelorie> Another alternative is to download one of the alternate libraries which is designed for newbies, see http://www.gedasymbols.org/user/kai_martin_knaak/essential/essential.html
[00:24:25] <Tom_itx> i'll give you 60 for it
[00:24:28] <pfred1> yeah I've looked and looked for some stuff in Eagle only to have it turn up later
[00:24:33] <djdelorie> DIP8 is an 8-pin DIP
[00:24:40] <djdelorie> SO8 is an 8-pin SO
[00:24:45] <djdelorie> TSSOP8 is an 8-pin TSSOP etc
[00:24:54] <gene__> What is the full debug = set to?
[00:25:14] <robin_sz> where can you see the package?
[00:25:26] <jdhNC> Tom_itx: power disconnect, Estop, Start button, DIN rail, panduit.
[00:25:32] <jdhNC> Tom_itx: they have another one just like it.
[00:25:41] <pfred1> skorket with the motor drivers you have now you have to set the current limit on them
[00:26:30] <djdelorie> run pcb, Window->Library, the string in [brackets] is the footprint for gschem
[00:26:39] <gene__> Is the 7 & 5 F's or 7F's?
[00:26:40] <skorket> pfred1, so if I wanted to control the tb6560 from an arduino, I would have to do something like step up the signal from the arduino and connect it to one of the 'manual' control pins to drive it?
[00:26:50] <andypugh> gene__: it;s in the docs somewhere. But only goes so far.
[00:27:17] <djdelorie> robin_sz: what you *really* want is for us to implement http://www.delorie.com/pcb/component-dbs.html
[00:27:25] <gene__> I'm look at them, and it says to see a file in the srcs. Not much help IOW
[00:27:30] <andypugh> You can get _really_ detailed stuff be echoing 5 to proc/rtai/debug
[00:27:47] <gene__> As root>
[00:28:07] <robin_sz> djdelorie, yes, as far as I know, thats exactly how every other pcb package I have ever used works
[00:28:09] <robin_sz> orcad
[00:28:12] <robin_sz> eedesigner
[00:28:14] <robin_sz> protel
[00:28:20] <djdelorie> I tyically will place a package in the window and check the measurements, I've been screwed before
[00:28:20] <robin_sz> proteous
[00:28:34] <djdelorie> it's a manpower issue, not a "we don't want to" issue
[00:28:44] <robin_sz> are there other packages using a "light" library?
[00:28:45] <andypugh> gene__: The source is out there. git.linuxcnc.org, click "tree"
[00:29:16] <pfred1> skorket I think an AVR could send out a digital signal that a TB6560 could use they are 5 volts aren't they?
[00:29:26] <skorket> yep
[00:29:38] <djdelorie> robin_sz: I don't know. We have some users that swear by their light libraries, using a separate corporate database of "approved" parts to merge light schematics with project rules and corporate parts to make a layout
[00:30:04] <pfred1> skorket another thing about PWM steppers is they can be incredibly noisy electrically
[00:30:09] <robin_sz> how do they do that?
[00:30:11] <djdelorie> the *output* of the process is a schematic with heavy symbols, but the *input* is a light schematic, often reused from a library
[00:30:18] <djdelorie> perl scripts, mostly :-)
[00:30:37] <djdelorie> all the geda file formats are plain ASCII and easily parsable
[00:30:42] <pfred1> skorket I could never get them to work right without some kind of optical isolation to block the motor driver noise
[00:31:35] <djdelorie> the other trick is to use "symbolic heavy symbols" - symbols with "purpose" names but filled in with project-specific details. So, "bypass-cap-1.sym" is what all the bypass caps are, regardless of what the project uses for bypass caps.
[00:32:06] <gene__> As root, proc/rtai/debug doesn't exists and root can't touch it
[00:32:10] <robin_sz> its just so different to how everyting else works ...
[00:32:17] <djdelorie> yup
[00:32:56] <djdelorie> The biggest geda projects don't do things the "everything else" way anyway, they *need* this kind of setup to manage them
[00:33:14] <djdelorie> but we admit to a big learning curve
[00:33:27] <robin_sz> yeah, i dont think its going to fly for me
[00:33:29] <gene__> Correction, as root, /proc/rtai/debug doesn't exist and root can't touch it to make the empty file
[00:33:35] <pfred1> djdelorie the text is it XML?
[00:33:44] <andypugh> gene__: It's not there until realtime starts
[00:33:59] <djdelorie> mostly it's a one-line-at-a-time format
[00:34:09] <robin_sz> what about component placement output for pick and place machines?
[00:34:48] <robin_sz> normally just component, x, y rotation
[00:35:00] <djdelorie> pcb has an exporter for that
[00:35:21] <gene__> linuxcnc was running
[00:35:35] <djdelorie> pfred1: see http://www.delorie.com/electronics/rulz/rulz-r8c33.sch and http://www.delorie.com/electronics/rulz/rulz-r8c33.pcb for examples
[00:35:54] <gene__> I just type "vim my-lathe.ini" and the whole thing crashed
[00:36:31] <ReadError_> 1st part = cut awesome :)
[00:36:33] <pfred1> djdelorie oh that doesn't look so bad
[00:36:38] <robin_sz> ok, let me giv it another shot
[00:36:57] <djdelorie> I have a lot of perl scripts that work on sch and pcb files
[00:37:24] <andypugh> gene__: cat /proc/rtai/debug ought to work.
[00:37:55] <andypugh> Well, assuming I have remembered all 4 words correctly, which is far from guaranteed.
[00:38:12] <robin_sz> place capacitor, select attributes, select "footprint"
[00:38:45] <djdelorie> I usually export the schematic to openoffice spreadsheet, and fill in all the extra data there.
[00:38:54] <robin_sz> what?
[00:39:04] <Tom_itx> what a kludge
[00:39:05] <djdelorie> I also tend to cut-n-paste parts from working projects, so the info is already filled in
[00:39:16] <djdelorie> there's a gattrib for doing it, but oocalc is much more usable
[00:39:47] <djdelorie> doing it in the GUI one at a time is, well, laborious.
[00:40:11] <robin_sz> look, if im placing a cap on the schematic and I KNOW its a 400v film cap, I want to enter that info now, to make sure when I get to drag it around on the PCB, its a nice big leaded film cap, not a 0204 chip
[00:40:29] <djdelorie> http://www.gedasymbols.org/user/dj_delorie/ - see sch2csv and csv2sch
[00:40:36] <andypugh> Doesn't that rather assume that you know off by heart all the tags?
[00:40:36] <gene__> An ls -l shows several files, but debug isn't among them, fifo, names, hal & scheduler is all
[00:40:43] <djdelorie> Right, for special parts, you fill in all the data right then in the GUI so you know it's that one.
[00:41:01] <djdelorie> andy: the standard tags are available in the gui, and the spreadsheet has the column headings for you
[00:41:22] <djdelorie> as long as you have *one* component done through the GUI, all the right tags are there
[00:41:39] <robin_sz> so, how do I set footprint on this cap to be say, a leaded cap, 15mm pad spacing? from the gui?
[00:41:44] <pfred1> I thought the new thing today was libre office?
[00:41:54] <djdelorie> robin_sz: but when you have dozens of bypass caps, it's easier to fill in one by hand (or copy from another project), and copy/paste that row to all the other caps in OOcalc
[00:42:12] <djdelorie> robin_sz: depends on *which* leaded cap, 15mm spacing, it is.
[00:42:38] <djdelorie> I have a whole directory full of various leaded caps, and a perl script to make more, because there are no standard for those. Resistors, sure, and SMT caps, but not leaded.
[00:42:39] <gene__> And this time before I ran in I set "debug = 7FFFFF" in the ini file, no effect
[00:43:19] <robin_sz> ok, 2w leaded resistor?
[00:43:20] <andypugh> gene__: What are you trying to do right now?
[00:44:09] <djdelorie> ACY<pitch>
[00:44:11] <gene__> Its sitting there, supposedly with debug = 7FFFFF in effect, turning the spindle ab1 rps
[00:44:15] <ReadError_> http://p.twimg.com/Asp82RnCMAIVEAe.jpg:large ;o
[00:44:16] <djdelorie> ACY600 for 0.6" pitch, etc.
[00:44:17] <ReadError_> ;))))
[00:44:24] <gene__> Its sitting there, supposedly with debug = 7FFFFF in effect, turning the spindle about 1 rps
[00:44:30] <alex4nder> ReadError_: congrats
[00:44:35] <djdelorie> ReadError_: Cool! :-)
[00:44:37] <ReadError_> ty sir
[00:44:43] <ReadError_> fits PERFECT too
[00:44:48] <ReadError_> which is always nice :)
[00:45:09] <alex4nder> how many lines of g-code?
[00:45:55] <robin_sz> djdelorie, so I placed a resistor, I have gshem with a window showing the attribute, I slelected "footprint" in the add Attribute window ...
[00:46:20] <robin_sz> djdelorie, so how do I set it to be say an 0206 smd reflow footprint?
[00:46:21] <djdelorie> enter ACY600 in the value window and click "add"
[00:46:26] <robin_sz> wait
[00:46:32] <andypugh> Is "ACY600" obvious in some way I am not seeing?
[00:46:32] <djdelorie> 0206? 1206?
[00:46:37] <gene__> The last 3 times I tried to do a "Touch Off" on x, linuxcnc quit, no trace in the two .txt files, and nothing in dmesg, it just as if I clicked quit.
[00:46:42] <djdelorie> Axial Component Y 0.400 inch
[00:46:49] <pfred1> andypugh heh
[00:46:59] <robin_sz> where did you get that from?
[00:47:15] <ReadError_> alex4nder: 235
[00:47:19] <djdelorie> I don't know what the Y is for, that's one of them "industry standard" names
[00:47:25] <djdelorie> like CAPC1608L
[00:47:38] <robin_sz> so, is this in a dropdown?
[00:47:43] <andypugh> gene__: Did you start Linuxcnc from the gui or the command line?
[00:47:53] <djdelorie> which is a 0603 capacitor for automated placement and reflow
[00:48:03] <gene__> cli
[00:48:14] <robin_sz> djdelorie, do you just have to "know" these?
[00:48:20] <andypugh> Anything there? anything in dmesg?
[00:48:25] <djdelorie> the tools aren't that integrated. Run pcb to get the library window, type the values in the schematic editor window
[00:48:54] <pfred1> this isn't going to fit perfectly I am going to have to file it: http://i.imgur.com/5kZdb.jpg
[00:48:56] <djdelorie> robin_sz: use pcb's library window to "learn" the footprint names. We didn't make them all up, there are standards for many of them, but PCB knows how to show you the footprint as a preview
[00:49:03] <pfred1> but it looks close to me
[00:49:04] <djdelorie> and you can double check the measurements right in pcb with the mark
[00:49:27] <gene__> total zip over and above the usual 200 bytes for the debug.txt, and about 800 for the print.txt, no new content IOW
[00:50:18] <robin_sz> djdelorie, but then after looking it up in pcb I have to add it in schem and then export the netlist back into pcb so it can place it?
[00:50:41] <djdelorie> yup
[00:50:56] <pfred1> gEDA isn't very integrated is it?
[00:51:30] <gene__> In the .ini file, the debug value I've seen is a hex value, does it need a $ sign in front, or an )x maybe
[00:51:33] <djdelorie> it's not, but there are many use cases where that's a good thing. gschem, for example, can drive the Altium layout tool, or simulation, or in one case plumbing...
[00:51:45] <gene__> In the .ini file, the debug value I've seen is a hex value, does it need a $ sign in front, or an 0x maybe?
[00:52:04] <djdelorie> we have many improvements we'd *like* to make but we lack the people to do it
[00:52:17] <andypugh> I think gschem has been used to diagram HAL wiring in LinuxCNC.
[00:52:29] <andypugh> But that could be a false memory
[00:52:37] <skunkKandT> gene__: look at the pid component for pid.N.saturated and related pins...
[00:52:41] <djdelorie> and there are a few extremely vocal people in the geda community who oppose any attempts at further integration
[00:52:44] <skunkKandT> (list email)
[00:52:47] <pfred1> the first time I tried out gEDA was a long time ago I'm going to say 10 years?
[00:53:08] <robin_sz> its just so different ...
[00:53:26] <robin_sz> most commercial packages let you really explore the avaialabel components
[00:53:37] <pfred1> djdelorie would they be adverse to say a front end?
[00:53:54] <djdelorie> re-read that component-db paper I wrote; it does what you want, we just need resources to implement it.
[00:54:02] <pfred1> like keep all the parts separate but have one IDE sort of a thing?
[00:54:21] <djdelorie> pfred1: there's a front-end, most people don't use it, it doesn't have the component thing anyway.
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[00:55:04] <djdelorie> managing components is actually a third equal part of the process (schematics, components, layout)
[00:55:13] <gene__> All 3 of the saturated pins are either false or 0
[00:55:58] <andypugh> gene__: What changed between the last time LinusCNC worked, and the first time it didn't?
[00:56:23] <pfred1> andypugh that kind of debugging often fails
[00:56:24] <djdelorie> the root of the problem is that "comonent" isn't a concept in geda/pcb. You have symbols and footprints, neither tool knows about the other tool's file format, and our "database" is just a mess of files on disk.
[00:56:29] <andypugh> I know that is a silly question, but what have you been doing>
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[00:57:30] <ReadError_> http://p.twimg.com/Asp_uB2CIAIolD2.jpg:large
[00:57:43] <ReadError_> mission == accomplished!
[00:57:48] <ReadError_> now i need to finish the rest ;)
[00:58:02] <ReadError_> i think it will go smoother now that i have a better idea how to do it
[00:58:05] <Jymmm> what mission?
[00:58:24] <pfred1> I want a brass hammer that is my mission lately
[00:58:41] <ReadError_> Jymmm: lrn2cnc
[00:58:45] <ReadError_> well not really
[00:58:46] <gene__> This debug = hasn't worked in weeks for me. The only thing odd I added to the .ini was a "POSITION_FILE = position.txt", which seems to have killed the X touch off.
[00:58:55] <ReadError_> but, working on getting parts for my quad milled up
[00:59:07] <Jymmm> pfred1: you get radition bronze or nuttin!
[00:59:31] <pfred1> honestly I don't even know where this dirty chunk of metal came from
[00:59:44] <Jymmm> pfred1: Got Counter?
[01:00:03] <Jymmm> pfred1: "Do you have a radiating glow lately?"
[01:00:15] <Jymmm> pfred1: "Do you glow in the dark?"
[01:00:26] <pfred1> it has been said
[01:00:55] <pfred1> I'm spending more time out in the sun though lately
[01:01:00] <Jymmm> pfred1: "Are you sure the radiating glow about you is not due to YOU being pregnant?"
[01:01:24] <pfred1> I think it is due to my ancestors having dwelled in caves
[01:01:50] <Jymmm> Are these Rent-To-Own caves?
[01:02:22] <pfred1> one of my ancestors appears ot have owned Rome
[01:03:19] <Jymmm> pfred1: Did S/he own Ears-on-a-rope by chance?
[01:03:53] <pfred1> on the other side of my family a city here has it's motto because of him
[01:04:23] <Jymmm> motto?
[01:04:25] <pfred1> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madison,_New_Jersey
[01:04:35] <pfred1> yeah was my great grandfather's nursery
[01:05:00] <pfred1> they were his roses
[01:05:12] <gene__> Ok, I just homed both axis's, made a test cut, measured it, and tried to do a touch off on x, entered 0.406, and linuxcnc quit
[01:05:42] <Tom_itx> put another quarter in
[01:07:15] <gene__> There is a bunch of NML related stuff that looks like normal operations in the cli I ran it from, basically quit time cleanup stuff.
[01:11:35] <gene__> I also did an "updatedb;locate position.txt" and came back empty, so that file wasn't created either. WTH?
[01:11:56] <andypugh> Sorry, I wasn't seeing updats.
[01:12:58] <andypugh> gene__: Well, first thing I would try would be reverting that POSITION_FILE thing. I wonder if the permissions are wrong on that file? Who is the owner?
[01:13:31] <gene__> I own everything in home/gene
[01:13:43] <pfred1> gene__ how can you be so sure?
[01:14:27] <gene__> I did, now I'll test if that fixes the touch off x thing, ls -lR is pretty good at that
[01:15:10] <pfred1> I've run X apps sudo and root ended up owning the associated dotfiles
[01:15:34] <pfred1> kind of annoying
[01:17:08] <gene__> Humm, just for S&G I put an 0x in front of the 7FFFFFFF, and that must have been the magic elixer, the cli is now very noisy, but lets repeat the crash it sequence
[01:17:49] <pfred1> I had a version of X Window where they forgot to do that once
[01:18:04] <pfred1> it really messed with my system clock
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[01:18:59] <gene__> Ok, if I clear the offset, its fine, but if I enter a value, its gone in about 1.5 seconds
[01:19:20] <ReadError_> im tickled pink guys
[01:19:37] <ReadError_> finally cut something, even though its a very simple part
[01:22:11] <gene__> I have nothing extra in the .txt files in my /home/gene dir, and scanning back over the cli history says everything apparently complerted successfully.
[01:23:14] <gene__> And with no POSITION_FILE (# out) it still crashes, so that doesn't seem to be the cause.
[01:23:18] <andypugh> dmesg is the place to look.
[01:25:57] <gene__> No errors, last active is the parport address used, next line parport disabled, then RTAI[math] unloaded as it shuts down. no errors per sie
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[01:34:29] <gene__> I did find some libreoffice stuff owned by root, so I chown -R gene:gene * just for grins, here goes again
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[01:35:56] <gene__> Yup, non zero value in touch off for x, and it goes away
[01:36:55] <gene__> and same for z, 0.00001 makes it go away
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[01:43:22] <skorket> Thanks all for your help
[01:43:49] <andypugh> gene__: That is very odd. Which version?
[01:45:12] <gene__> latest devel
[01:45:50] <gene__> I just checked with synaptic, nothing newer
[01:50:24] <gene__> I did find the position thing needs to be in the TRAJ section & moved it
[01:52:58] <andypugh> Well, if it is in the wrong place it simply won't be found. It it is optional, then that isn't it.
[01:53:31] <ReadError_> i need to get this d252 going
[01:53:41] <ReadError_> microcenter has 60gb SATA onsale for 50$
[01:53:44] <ReadError_> should I bite ?
[01:53:52] <ReadError_> err
[01:53:54] <gene__> fixed that, I now have a position.txt, full of long strings of zero's. But how is it remembering the offsets, they do "take" before it goes away!
[01:53:55] <ReadError_> 60GB SSD
[01:54:32] -!- ve7it has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
[01:54:37] <gene__> and thy are restored when I restart
[01:54:37] <andypugh> That sounds a bargain, though I am finding 8GB to be fine on my CNC baord
[01:55:14] <Jymmm> 2MB is all you need
[01:56:35] <ReadError_> im just wondering
[01:56:36] <ReadError_> its cheap
[01:56:40] <ReadError_> dont need too much storage...
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[02:06:20] <Jymmm> This is the SMARTEST thing I've seen in a while... http://www.nblmc.com/products/16-inch-solar-powered-fan-957453.html
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[02:10:11] <ReadError_> http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0364779
[02:11:51] <gene__> Q:are SECO CCMT carbide chips any good? I am chipping edges way too easily
[02:12:18] <Thetawaves> that is pretty cheap
[02:12:21] <Thetawaves> is it a good drive?
[02:14:03] <ReadError_> i got one in my vmware esxi box
[02:14:05] <ReadError_> no issues yet
[02:22:23] <Tom_itx> Jymmm i hate sites that have those floatie things
[02:22:33] <Jymmm> tell me about it
[02:22:46] <Tom_itx> so much that i refuse to buy from them
[02:23:14] <Jymmm> unless you are going to buy 100+ they do want to tlak with you anyway
[02:23:35] <Tom_itx> just as well
[02:37:30] <jdhNC> does anyone ever use the same stepper drives for more than one system? A bunch of DPDT switches or something?
[02:40:30] <Tom_itx> i'm setting up my plugs universal but made no plans to swap stuff
[02:41:15] <jdhNC> mine will have plugs, but I don't want to swap plugs.
[02:41:37] <jdhNC> I need a 12PDT switch
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[02:43:11] <Tom_itx> my issue is that i'm using an old driver and swapping a new one that will be for this system and another new one
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[02:43:32] <Tom_itx> at which time the old one will be put back on the sherline
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[02:44:37] <jdhNC> I don't have room for two of everything and the machines will be next to each other.
[02:44:55] <Tom_itx> and using the new driver etc to learn linuxcnc in the process
[02:45:11] <Tom_itx> i don't either really
[02:45:32] <jdhNC> I got a new computer for the mill, but I kind of like having it up here for testing.
[02:46:07] <Tom_itx> yeah i wish i had a spare atom
[02:46:35] ReadError_ is now known as ReadError
[02:47:24] <Connor> jdhNC: You ever see my comments on the g0704 controller? the l1 and l2 inhibit switch? I wasn't sure if I told you or not..
[02:47:57] <jdhNC> yeah. Looks like it would be good for one of the relays on the C41
[02:48:15] <Connor> yea. using it on the NC side of the On/Off relay..
[02:48:34] <jdhNC> and there is ~12vdc on there I can borrow 50mA from?
[02:48:50] <ReadError> looks like i need to unetbootin this new board
[02:48:51] <Connor> yea, but I thought you could do 5v?
[02:48:53] <ReadError> since no IDE ports
[02:49:22] <jdhNC> I'll do the 5V from the PC. I have a little prox switch I'd like to try as an index pulse.
[02:49:47] <Connor> It's more than 12v.. It's 12-15vdc..
[02:50:02] <Connor> You'll want a voltage regulator in the mix..
[02:50:03] <Tom_itx> how much 5v do you need?
[02:50:04] <jdhNC> the switch is 10-30
[02:50:17] <jdhNC> 300mA of 5vdc
[02:50:58] <Tom_itx> i split the centertap on one of my trasformers and plan to run it to one of these: http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/misc_stuff/5v_switcher.jpg
[02:51:21] <Tom_itx> i better beef up the input cap though
[02:51:50] <jdhNC> nice. I've seem some LM7805-alikes that use those. Same form factor/pins
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[02:52:39] <Tom_itx> i had a layout half that size with the inductor on the bottom but never sent any off
[02:52:50] <jdhNC> do you get to sit around making little boards all day?
[02:53:10] <Tom_itx> not all day
[02:53:21] <Tom_itx> but i've been piddling for quite a while
[02:53:58] <jdhNC> if I didn't have to work every day, I'd have more time for important things!
[02:54:05] <Tom_itx> those are good for ~3A iirc
[02:54:19] <djdelorie> if I didn't have to work all day, I still wouldn't have enough time
[02:54:37] <Tom_itx> yeah and i'd still be broke
[02:54:44] <jdhNC> there is that.
[02:55:38] <jdhNC> we had a massive power outage at work today which ruined most of plans for accomplishing great things.
[02:55:38] <Tom_itx> i wouldn't mind doing it for a living if i could support myself with it
[02:56:07] <Tom_itx> and i did programming for a while but not full time
[02:56:36] <jdhNC> I did some fortran today.
[02:56:46] <Connor> I would like to get into more Robotics and Machine control.. doing web database crap all day .. I'm a bit over it..
[02:57:26] <jdhNC> DB stuff bores the hell out of me. One of the guys I work with is really good and likes its so I do most of the control stuff and he does the backends.
[02:58:04] <Connor> I do Database and web application stuff. Wife does the templates and content and graphics.
[02:58:16] <Tom_itx> most of the programming around here is for aircraft parts and short deadlines
[02:58:39] <jdhNC> my wife is a teacher with 4 degrees.. so I only make 2.5x as much as her.
[02:59:05] <Connor> We own the biz, so, we both make the same amount. :)
[02:59:25] <Connor> Would be nice if I could have this hobby make some money for itself..
[02:59:38] <jdhNC> I used to do that... worked in my basement off chapman highway.
[02:59:49] <Jymmm> jdhNC: Tell her to get a pair and a fake mustache, then she'll make 2.5x more than you =)
[03:00:04] <djdelorie> I write embedded development tools. I do electronics to *relax*
[03:00:30] <Jymmm> djdelorie: Then what was MS-DOS stuff for? You masocistic stage?
[03:00:39] <jdhNC> I am not particularly good at electronics, but I enjoy it.
[03:00:52] <Tom_itx> same here
[03:01:01] <djdelorie> at the time I wrote djgpp, I was designing 80386 PC motherboards. I needed something that ran on them :-)
[03:01:11] <Jymmm> djdelorie: oh, heh
[03:01:42] <Jymmm> djdelorie: surprising that it lingered for so long?
[03:01:47] <djdelorie> yes!
[03:01:53] <Connor> So, what does everyone here use their CNC's for?
[03:02:01] <djdelorie> making more cncs!
[03:02:03] <jdhNC> Connor: making parts for CNC
[03:02:07] <Jymmm> Connor: pr0n
[03:02:52] <Connor> Looks like more and more people are getting into Desktop manufacturing.. Benchtop mills, routers, and 3D printers..
[03:03:26] <djdelorie> there are a lot of cases in woodworking where I could use a cnc mill
[03:03:29] <Jymmm> Virtual has just becoem overrated, now people want tangible
[03:03:31] <jdhNC> I'd like a 3d printer, but I have yet to find a 3d modeling program I can figure out.
[03:03:42] <djdelorie> and maybe I can get an extruder head to work on it too :-)
[03:04:02] <Connor> I have 1 each Mill, Router, Printer.... I think I need a laser cutter/engraver next. :)
[03:04:15] <djdelorie> and the same machine can drill PCB board for me too, so win-win-win
[03:04:16] <jdhNC> what printer?
[03:04:20] <Connor> cupcake. :(
[03:04:35] <jdhNC> I wanted my router to make PCB's for something that I don't even remember
[03:04:37] <Connor> I have a extruder head I was working on for my router, but never finished it up.
[03:05:12] <djdelorie> heh. I wrote DJGPP as a tool to write 32-bit programs with, but ended up *just* writing DJGPP, and not the 32-bit programs I originally wanted...
[03:05:14] <jdhNC> oh, I ended up building it on an arduino + proto board
[03:05:18] <djdelorie> I suspect CNC machines are in the same category
[03:05:49] <Connor> My circuit for my endstops for the router are still on a breadboard.. I was going to use the router to make one and never did get the Z dialed in well enough to use V bits with.
[03:05:51] <jdhNC> I tried to use djgpp back in the day, but couldn't get it to work with the novell 'lan workplace for dos' in protected mode
[03:06:53] <djdelorie> mixing and matching 32-bit extenders never worked
[03:06:56] <Connor> Oh lord, Novell.. Ick.. I hated that.. and Lantastic..
[03:07:19] <jdhNC> it's still running. Every few years a new IT weenie will tell me we have to upgrade it because dos is unsupported and insecure and it might spread viruses.
[03:07:45] <Connor> ROFL. What version ?
[03:07:55] <jdhNC> I think it is 5.0
[03:08:32] <jdhNC> one of them told us we had to upgrade all our PLC's to XP.
[03:08:49] <Connor> ROFL
[03:09:29] <Connor> 4.11 was the one I used.. I think..
[03:10:03] <Jymmm> 3.11 4.01
[03:10:04] <Connor> or maybe 3.12
[03:10:08] <Connor> or both..
[03:10:12] <Jymmm> heh
[03:10:19] <Connor> heck.. that was a long time ago.
[03:10:44] <Jymmm> I have a 50 license for Netware 3 or for aroudn here somewhere on 25 FDD
[03:10:58] <Connor> ROFL.
[03:13:20] <Connor> I remember setting up a BBS network, using Lantastic via parallel port, QEMM Memmory Manager, and DEAQCiew
[03:13:27] <Connor> err. DESQview
[03:13:52] <Connor> and oh man, did we have a pain the a$$ time when the freaking soft modems hit the market..
[03:14:09] <jdhNC> there used to be some little computer store kind of west that ran a big bbs
[03:15:05] <Connor> jdhNC: Yup. That, my friend, is the company I used to work for. Name of the BBS was Dataworld BBS. Which had no real relation with the Dataworld's Micros-To-Go. (the company I started working for in 95)
[03:15:31] <Connor> in 95, He ran Primer BBS and Datacomp BBS in the back room and at his house.
[03:15:46] <jdhNC> perhaps I bought my Diamond SpeedStar from you.
[03:15:56] <Connor> That was before my time.
[03:16:13] <jdhNC> probably 93/94
[03:16:15] <Connor> I had a Star XT My dad got me from then.
[03:16:45] <Connor> a whopping 10 or 12 Mhz.. (I don't recall which exactly anymore), 20MB HD, and EGA!!
[03:16:58] <jdhNC> I had some generic XT I got after pouring through thousands of pages of that big mag/newspaper thing
[03:17:00] <Connor> I still have the hard drive. :)
[03:17:38] <jdhNC> mine had a 30meg rll
[03:17:40] <Connor> I worked for Dataworld from 95-2008.. Turned into a ISP.
[03:18:01] <jdhNC> do you know (of) John Farmer?
[03:18:19] <Connor> I built 95% of it up myself.. building the computers-- network etc..
[03:18:26] <Connor> Sounds familiar.. but, not personally.
[03:18:27] <jdhNC> GoldSword Systems.
[03:18:45] <jdhNC> I had an ISDN connection through him.
[03:19:28] <Connor> Oh yea.. ISDN.. Gotta love that.. I had a ISDN connection in late 95 or early 96...
[03:19:34] <Connor> It rocked.
[03:19:46] <jdhNC> and dirt cheap in TN
[03:19:48] <Connor> back before 56k modem was even out.. I think the top speed then was 33.6k
[03:19:52] <Connor> Yup.
[03:20:12] <Connor> Well made a ton on ISDN connections.. we had dialup and dedicated..
[03:20:15] <djdelorie> my first modem supported up to 600 baud
[03:20:30] <jdhNC> mine did 300 and you had to push a button
[03:20:31] <Connor> 2400baud on that XT.
[03:21:17] <Connor> I had a old Ti-99-4a that had a cassette tape that did, 110 I think ?
[03:22:11] <djdelorie> mine was an S100 card, no buttons
[03:23:24] <jdhNC> gotta be on a boat at 6am, later.
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[04:44:38] <alex4nder> hey]
[04:49:13] <ReadError> alex4nder
[04:49:15] <ReadError> she cut ;)
[04:49:30] <ReadError> http://p.twimg.com/Asp82RnCMAIVEAe.jpg:large
[04:49:36] <ReadError> http://p.twimg.com/Asp_uB2CIAIolD2.jpg:large
[04:49:40] <ReadError> came out perfect
[04:50:10] <alex4nder> sick man
[04:50:18] <alex4nder> you building a new spindle?
[04:51:20] <ReadError> oh nah
[04:51:25] <ReadError> its for this quad im building
[04:51:30] <ReadError> for aerial photography
[04:51:51] <ReadError> but now i know how to do solid works a bit, and make tool paths
[04:51:57] <ReadError> so i think things will go quicker
[04:54:05] <alex4nder> nice
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[06:58:36] <DJ9DJ> moin
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[07:34:49] <alex4nder> yoh
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[08:31:46] <Loetmichel> mornin'
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[08:38:41] <archivist> rob_h, harrogate model engineer show :)
[08:49:26] <rob_h> nice little show been afew times
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[11:35:03] <SolarNRG> Hi guys, I've finishes making my "gear" http://i.imgur.com/uomBt.jpg
[11:35:11] <SolarNRG> And I'm still not happy with trying to mold gears
[11:35:22] <SolarNRG> I think I may just have to bite the bullet and simply machine then
[11:35:48] <SolarNRG> I'm based in the UK and I'd like a small desktop CNC mill for cutting steel
[11:35:59] <SolarNRG> Soem of you have suggested doing an X-2 conversion
[11:36:21] <SolarNRG> I can spend about a thousand pounds
[11:36:25] <SolarNRG> What would you suggest?
[11:36:53] <archivist> you also need a rotary table for gear cutting
[11:37:31] <jthornton> I'd suggest making friends with archivist :=)
[11:37:38] <SolarNRG> archivist?
[11:37:42] <archivist> you can make something from scraps for 1k, or retrofit something
[11:38:03] <robin_sz> an old bridgeport, a rotary table ...
[11:38:10] <jthornton> he is in UK and makes gears
[11:38:28] <robin_sz> or just wait for someone to sell a gear hob for scrap value
[11:39:25] <archivist> send the hobbing machine to me first :)
[11:39:59] <archivist> SolarNRG, speak in channel not pm
[11:40:03] <SolarNRG> Sorry
[11:40:11] <robin_sz> stupid question .. but nylon gears .. surely you just buy them ????
[11:40:25] <archivist> HPC
[11:40:29] <robin_sz> exactly
[11:40:39] <SolarNRG> I want to mass produce my own gears on a large scale so I can make a heliostat field
[11:40:49] <SolarNRG> and make steam energy electricity and distilled water
[11:40:50] <robin_sz> why?
[11:41:01] <SolarNRG> To help save the planet before we run out of oil and clean water :D
[11:41:09] <archivist> ah dreaming again
[11:41:09] <robin_sz> no, why do you want to make them yourself
[11:41:17] <SolarNRG> Cost saving
[11:41:21] <robin_sz> no
[11:41:27] <robin_sz> they cost pence
[11:41:39] <SolarNRG> 156mm gears with another gear stacked on top?
[11:41:41] <robin_sz> making them yourself is more expensive
[11:41:52] <robin_sz> just have them laser cut then
[11:42:05] <SolarNRG> But my gears on my original are steel
[11:42:15] <robin_sz> so have them laser cut then
[11:42:15] <SolarNRG> And I wanted to do lost wax casting of the 3d printed gear I got
[11:42:33] <SolarNRG> but you can't lasercut double stacked gears, can you?
[11:42:42] <robin_sz> yes
[11:42:54] <robin_sz> it uses a very very rare process
[11:42:59] <robin_sz> called "welding"
[11:43:09] <SolarNRG> Oh so you cut two gears
[11:43:11] <robin_sz> you cut the larger one
[11:43:14] <SolarNRG> then you weld one on top of the other
[11:43:14] <robin_sz> and the smaller one
[11:43:20] <SolarNRG> You can lasercut steel?
[11:43:22] <robin_sz> and then you "weld" them together
[11:43:25] <robin_sz> errr ...
[11:43:28] <robin_sz> yes
[11:43:35] <robin_sz> I used to cut 30 tonnes a month
[11:43:49] <SolarNRG> How much is a lasercutter than can cut me 156mm gears?
[11:43:54] <SolarNRG> 30mm deep?
[11:43:59] <SolarNRG> spur, nice and easy
[11:43:59] <robin_sz> you dont buy the cutter
[11:44:06] <robin_sz> 30mm?
[11:44:08] <SolarNRG> yeah
[11:44:09] <robin_sz> none
[11:44:13] <robin_sz> why 30mm?
[11:44:14] <SolarNRG> none?
[11:44:22] <SolarNRG> So there's lots of mesh and grip to handle the wind
[11:44:35] <robin_sz> 30mm?
[11:44:48] <SolarNRG> That gear http://i.imgur.com/uomBt.jpg
[11:44:52] <SolarNRG> Is 60mm deep in total
[11:44:58] <SolarNRG> It is 156mm diam
[11:45:04] <robin_sz> why 30mm .... that will take many tonnes in steel
[11:45:30] <SolarNRG> Yeah, a nice big heavy gear to drive a big mirror around
[11:45:44] <SolarNRG> I thought casting them would be easiest from scrap steel
[11:45:45] <robin_sz> so how thick does it need ot be in nylon
[11:45:55] <archivist> your 1 k wont buy the land to put it all on
[11:46:16] <robin_sz> I would do differently
[11:46:17] <SolarNRG> I don't need to buy the land, I know someone with a farm that'll let me do it there
[11:46:28] <robin_sz> I would make say a 1.5m gear
[11:46:33] <SolarNRG> meter?
[11:46:33] <robin_sz> in 6mm steel
[11:46:36] <robin_sz> meter
[11:46:59] <robin_sz> with nice big teeth
[11:47:07] <SolarNRG> my gears are MOD3
[11:47:32] <robin_sz> I would work with useable technologies
[11:47:42] <robin_sz> how big is mirror frame?
[11:47:45] <robin_sz> 4m?
[11:47:54] <SolarNRG> Well my prototype was only 60cm
[11:47:59] <robin_sz> not the real one
[11:48:01] <SolarNRG> But I'd like a steel melter that is 10m diam
[11:48:22] <robin_sz> im sorry you seem unable to answer simple questions
[11:48:32] <SolarNRG> Amongst some 2mx2m smaller arrays that reflect light onto the steam
[11:48:34] <SolarNRG> I have many designs
[11:48:40] <SolarNRG> I was hoping to have a universal gear
[11:48:42] <SolarNRG> Made of steel
[11:48:44] <robin_sz> so 2m x 2m
[11:48:46] <SolarNRG> Like the one in the photo
[11:48:50] <SolarNRG> The bulk of them yes
[11:49:03] <robin_sz> make a 180 degree 1.5m gear
[11:49:11] <robin_sz> out of laser cut steel
[11:49:24] <robin_sz> drive off a pinion
[11:49:43] <SolarNRG> Sounds good, only one problem
[11:49:54] <SolarNRG> The gear will be so massive the counterbalance arms will be sticking right out
[11:50:07] <robin_sz> ?
[11:50:14] <SolarNRG> The counterbalance arms must go either side of the gear
[11:50:29] <SolarNRG> The x axis gearbox goes left right, on top of the x axis gearbox is the y axis gearbox.
[11:50:45] <SolarNRG> Two steel arms are welded on dead centre to the main y axis big gear
[11:50:51] <SolarNRG> Those arms go through bearings
[11:51:02] <robin_sz> so
[11:51:07] <robin_sz> what I am saying is ..
[11:51:17] <SolarNRG> The arms then are connected to plates one end of the plates holds the dish, the other the weights
[11:51:17] <robin_sz> instead of trying to make small, 30mm thick gears
[11:51:27] <SolarNRG> 156mm is small?
[11:51:28] <robin_sz> make large, thinner gears
[11:51:30] <robin_sz> tiny
[11:51:47] <robin_sz> then you lower the forces and can use available technologies
[11:52:10] <robin_sz> casting steel is non trivial
[11:52:34] <robin_sz> casting steel to a precision to make useable mod 3 teeth .. unheard of
[11:52:46] <robin_sz> normally you would hast a blank and then hob it
[11:53:15] <SolarNRG> Are you telling me laser cutters cannot cut anything more than 6mm?
[11:53:31] <robin_sz> they can, but edge quality drops
[11:53:38] <robin_sz> you could have it waterjet cut
[11:53:45] <robin_sz> but thats expensive
[11:54:04] <SolarNRG> What's wrong with a 5 axis CNC with a tungsten carbide spindle?
[11:54:05] <robin_sz> you cuold have a 30mm x 156 cut on a waterjet
[11:54:28] <robin_sz> nothing, if you have one go right ahead :)
[11:54:50] <SolarNRG> What machine do you reccomend for this task?
[11:54:56] <robin_sz> a gear hob
[11:55:05] <SolarNRG> recommend any good brands?
[11:55:08] <robin_sz> or a horizontal mill
[11:55:25] <robin_sz> probably a horizontal mill
[11:55:28] <robin_sz> try Haas
[11:55:56] <robin_sz> i was incorrectly assuming you wante dto make this at a low cost
[11:56:27] <robin_sz> now I now you have many hundred thousand euros to spend, its simple
[11:57:13] <robin_sz> you cuold get those cut on a waterjet in 30mm steel though
[11:57:19] <robin_sz> will be better than casting
[11:57:28] <robin_sz> but not as good as machining
[11:57:56] <SolarNRG> I got like 1200 euros to spend on a system that can reliably make me 156mm 60mm total depth gears
[11:57:59] <SolarNRG> of steel
[11:58:08] <SolarNRG> repeatably
[11:58:17] <SolarNRG> hundredds of thousands, not
[11:59:26] <robin_sz> then an old horizontal mill
[11:59:53] <robin_sz> how many do you want to make?
[11:59:56] <robin_sz> 1000?
[12:00:00] <robin_sz> 10,000?
[12:00:36] <robin_sz> 100,000?
[12:00:58] <robin_sz> if you are making just 1000, it may be cheaper to have them made
[12:01:14] <robin_sz> at 10,000 yes, its probably worht buying a mamchine to do it
[12:01:33] <robin_sz> if you just need 100, its cheaper to have them made
[12:02:36] <robin_sz> fir the first 10 or 20, just get them waterjet cut
[12:02:37] <robin_sz> http://waterjets.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=119&Itemid=31
[12:02:38] <SolarNRG> belting online charge 120 quid per gearbox in terms of gears delivered
[12:02:46] <SolarNRG> I can buy 10 gearboxes with that money
[12:02:48] <SolarNRG> gears only
[12:03:01] <SolarNRG> I want like a 1000 or so gears
[12:03:08] <SolarNRG> So I can work all day making these things
[12:03:17] <SolarNRG> Solar energy requires lots of surface area
[12:03:57] <robin_sz> you seem to have conflicting design ideas and money
[12:04:09] <robin_sz> youve chosen the most expnsive type of gear
[12:04:14] <robin_sz> and dont want to spend the money
[12:04:24] <robin_sz> but you reject the cheap method
[12:04:28] <SolarNRG> Well I MADE a gear out of wax, it MESHES, but it looks like shit
[12:04:44] <robin_sz> but wax gears are useless for solar
[12:04:50] <robin_sz> not strong enough
[12:04:50] <SolarNRG> "lost wax"
[12:04:57] <SolarNRG> Put the wax into molochite, I have some
[12:05:03] <robin_sz> it will look like shit
[12:05:08] <SolarNRG> No shit
[12:05:20] <SolarNRG> Then pour in hot steel
[12:05:42] <robin_sz> and if you can get a decent gear surface, you are a god
[12:05:42] <SolarNRG> The earliest gears in the bronze age were cast
[12:05:50] <robin_sz> yes, but not in mud 3
[12:05:53] <robin_sz> mod 3
[12:06:18] <SolarNRG> Hey I tested my gear today, it wobbles a bit, but it meshes all teh way around, all the teeth mesh!
[12:06:27] <robin_sz> well, perfect, problem solved
[12:06:49] <SolarNRG> Ok, shall I stick with the casting idea? Is that going to be cheapest?
[12:07:03] <robin_sz> if you can get the quality
[12:07:10] <SolarNRG> I don't care if the gears aren't "perfect" I only care if the gears can handle the load and don't jam
[12:07:30] <robin_sz> well, you had my advice
[12:07:48] <SolarNRG> Your advice was stop what I'm doing and buy gears
[12:08:09] <robin_sz> or waterjet or use a better design that uses available technology
[12:08:23] <robin_sz> you showed me nylon gears
[12:08:28] <SolarNRG> Nylon?
[12:08:29] <SolarNRG> No I didn't
[12:08:33] <robin_sz> liar
[12:08:33] <SolarNRG> The one on the left was ABS
[12:08:37] <robin_sz> plastic
[12:08:37] <SolarNRG> The middle was wax
[12:08:40] <SolarNRG> The right was latex
[12:08:44] <robin_sz> wahtever, not steel
[12:08:45] <jthornton> SolarNRG, have you given any thought to plasma cutting larger diameter but thinner gears if they don't have to be perfect...
[12:08:54] <robin_sz> my advice if you wanted plastic gears was to buy them
[12:09:09] <robin_sz> plasma wont work
[12:09:10] <SolarNRG> The wax was only as an intermediary stage so I could do a lost wax cast of steel
[12:09:38] <archivist> jthornton, it would be nice to get orders for gears but none since 2009 :(
[12:09:51] <jthornton> yuck
[12:09:55] <robin_sz> jthornton, plasma put too much heat in, the tips of the gears will melt
[12:10:11] <SolarNRG> I think you're right
[12:10:21] <robin_sz> waterjet wuold do it easy
[12:10:28] <robin_sz> but its outside his budget
[12:10:30] <jthornton> well he could make a different gear shape
[12:10:33] <SolarNRG> I'm guessing a waterjet machine is waay to expensive
[12:10:41] <robin_sz> you dont buy the machine
[12:10:47] <robin_sz> you have it done for you
[12:11:08] <SolarNRG> Could you make that gear I showed you in steel?
[12:11:09] <archivist> SolarNRG, stop trying to do your own production with your current level of expertise
[12:11:21] <SolarNRG> I made an ice gear too
[12:11:27] <robin_sz> how useful
[12:11:33] <SolarNRG> Great for a siberian car factory
[12:11:36] <jthornton> we had flame cut gears that raised and lowered the jack up oil rig out of the water and supported millions of pounds
[12:11:43] <robin_sz> yeah
[12:11:54] <robin_sz> bet they had bigger teeth than mod 3 ;)
[12:12:07] <robin_sz> we've had great flame cutting done
[12:12:31] <SolarNRG> I'm guessing MOD 16 or something rediculous for oil rigs
[12:12:35] <jthornton> well yea and a different shape
[12:12:45] <archivist> jthornton, I have just the generator you need for your test, but a little too far to borrow it :)
[12:13:10] <jthornton> would need far too many boost transformers to make it to here
[12:13:13] <SolarNRG> arhcivist, could you make those gears?
[12:13:19] <SolarNRG> On your gearhob cnc?
[12:13:37] <robin_sz> if I had to solve this, cheapest would be to design larger gears and laser cut,
[12:13:43] <archivist> I would need to use the horizontal mill
[12:13:48] <robin_sz> second cheapest, waterjet in 30mm
[12:14:02] <robin_sz> and 3rd, i would machine on horiz mill with a dividing head
[12:14:27] <robin_sz> actually, I have a 4th axis on the haas ;)
[12:14:30] <archivist> my cnc is far too small for mod 3
[12:14:41] <robin_sz> mines not ;)
[12:14:47] <SolarNRG> Say I bit the bullet and got a laser cutter but opted for larger, thinner gears...
[12:14:51] <archivist> give it to me
[12:14:55] <SolarNRG> How much would said laser cutter cost me?
[12:15:07] <robin_sz> you dont BUY a laser cutter, you have it done
[12:15:15] <robin_sz> dirt cheap
[12:15:20] <SolarNRG> From who?
[12:15:24] <robin_sz> like 2x cost of the raw steel
[12:15:37] <robin_sz> from any of the hundreds of laser cutting suppliers?
[12:15:39] <jthornton> the gears on the rig were spur gears
[12:15:48] <archivist> I bet he has not factored steel cost yet
[12:16:06] <robin_sz> where in the UK are you?
[12:16:19] <archivist> me Burton upon Trent
[12:16:19] <SolarNRG> Scotland
[12:16:26] <SolarNRG> Glasgow
[12:16:31] <robin_sz> not you archivist
[12:16:34] <robin_sz> ;)
[12:16:38] <robin_sz> I know where you live
[12:16:51] <robin_sz> glasgy, no, I dont know that area
[12:16:53] <SolarNRG> I know that inch thick steel plate is only sold as a 2mx3m sheet at a cost of about 400 quid
[12:17:03] <SolarNRG> 2mx4m sorry
[12:17:05] <robin_sz> then you know nothing
[12:17:17] <robin_sz> thats totally incorrect
[12:17:18] <SolarNRG> That's from the steel yard I got my 25mm steel bars from
[12:17:34] <robin_sz> 1" plate is sold in many sizes
[12:17:42] <SolarNRG> Hey! I do know, I've been there and I asked in person
[12:17:50] <robin_sz> down to 4x4, 8x4, 3 x 1.5
[12:17:52] <SolarNRG> Just because your metal merchant sells it at a different price
[12:18:11] <robin_sz> you said "inch thick steel plate is only sold as a 2mx3m"
[12:18:17] <robin_sz> this is incorrect
[12:18:25] <SolarNRG> OK 6ft by 12ft
[12:18:31] <robin_sz> also incorrect
[12:18:41] <robin_sz> its sold in many many sizes
[12:18:53] <SolarNRG> Not at Simpson Steel in Glasgow it isn't
[12:19:19] * robin_sz sighs
[12:19:23] <SolarNRG> They're a steel merchant, they wouldn't sell me a 50cm offcut of 25mm steel as a CNC rail, they had to sell me 4m but were willing to cut it into segments for me
[12:19:37] <robin_sz> you are new to this I see
[12:19:58] <robin_sz> ask me what I spent the previous 5 years doing
[12:20:00] <SolarNRG> We put the cuts into Lexi's boot and drove off
[12:20:09] <SolarNRG> What did you spend teh last 5 years?
[12:20:12] <SolarNRG> on?
[12:20:55] <robin_sz> running a laser cutting and steel fabrication comapny, 2 lasers, 6 welding bays, 2 press brakes, 3d cad etc, fabrications to 5 tonnes
[12:21:38] <robin_sz> coded welding etc
[12:22:01] <robin_sz> we bought around 40 tonnes of steel every month
[12:22:15] <robin_sz> of which around 30 tonnes was sheet for cutting
[12:22:20] <robin_sz> and 10 was sections
[12:22:24] <SolarNRG> Woah
[12:22:39] <robin_sz> so, i know what sizes and grades steel comes in
[12:22:39] <SolarNRG> So you could make me lots of gears then?
[12:22:50] <robin_sz> I could have
[12:23:04] <robin_sz> but I got rid of the company when the economy turned crap
[12:23:10] <SolarNRG> :(
[12:23:21] <robin_sz> sad for the staff
[12:23:27] <robin_sz> but a good move overall
[12:23:30] <SolarNRG> That's why I'm looking into doing my own stuff and I pay for this all off my DLA
[12:23:32] <archivist> everyone downsizes these days /me was staff
[12:23:46] <robin_sz> no, worng answer
[12:24:05] <robin_sz> how many sub contract laser cutters are there?
[12:24:12] <robin_sz> hundreds
[12:24:19] <robin_sz> are they all desperate for work?
[12:24:20] <robin_sz> yes
[12:24:25] <robin_sz> what are their margins?
[12:24:28] <robin_sz> almost zero
[12:24:33] <robin_sz> some running at a loss even
[12:24:43] <robin_sz> so, just sub it out .. its so cheap
[12:24:47] <archivist> robin_sz, my local started charging a minimum order val!
[12:24:52] <SolarNRG> So if I asked a laser cutter firm to make me a batch of a thousand pinions and a thousand big gears, I could make 500 solar heliostats for cheap?
[12:24:55] <archivist> idiots
[12:25:03] <SolarNRG> Cheaper than buying gears from beltinonline?
[12:25:03] <archivist> hehe
[12:25:06] <SolarNRG> And made of steel?
[12:25:26] <robin_sz> if you re-desinged to make use of larger, thinner gears yes
[12:25:34] <robin_sz> say, twice metal cost
[12:25:47] <archivist> just make ONE prototype and work out the real costs
[12:25:58] <SolarNRG> I did
[12:26:01] <SolarNRG> But I kept redesigining it
[12:26:05] <SolarNRG> And kept investing in new tools
[12:26:05] <robin_sz> archivist, please, thats being sensible, lets stick with cloud cuckoo land
[12:26:17] <SolarNRG> I found cheaper sources of epoxy resin
[12:26:30] <robin_sz> so have a prootype gear water jet cut
[12:26:31] <archivist> shhh
[12:26:56] <SolarNRG> Look you don't believe me, this is what I made
[12:26:56] <SolarNRG> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDnCqVxtr3k
[12:27:01] <SolarNRG> It tracks the sun all by itself
[12:27:10] <SolarNRG> And it has a focal point of concentrated solar energy!
[12:28:22] <SolarNRG> I built a working prototype, but I want to lower the cost of the gears, I'm spending 120 quid per solar tracker on gears alone
[12:28:29] <SolarNRG> Steels the only thing strong enough
[12:28:32] <robin_sz> so
[12:28:38] <robin_sz> 2m x 2m
[12:28:54] <SolarNRG> That's why my new gears are thicker than the old one
[12:28:54] <SolarNRG> s
[12:29:00] <robin_sz> you need 180 degrees of vertical
[12:29:10] <archivist> steel rusts and seizes out doors
[12:29:22] <robin_sz> and say, 45 degrees of horizontal?
[12:29:35] <SolarNRG> Yeah, I've redesigned it since then so the weights stick out at the sides rather than bridges at the back and jams when it hits 55 degrees
[12:29:58] <robin_sz> weights, no weights needed
[12:30:04] <robin_sz> jodrell bank?
[12:30:07] <SolarNRG> The thing MUST be counterbalanced
[12:30:08] <robin_sz> see any weights?
[12:30:18] <SolarNRG> The weights are in the tray at the back
[12:30:29] <robin_sz> jodrell bank has no tray
[12:30:35] <SolarNRG> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88zYI2hgFuw
[12:30:45] <SolarNRG> Here's a better demo of the counterbalance
[12:30:48] <robin_sz> thats not a video of jodrell bank
[12:30:56] <SolarNRG> No its my own design
[12:31:00] <SolarNRG> My own video
[12:31:02] <SolarNRG> My own labout
[12:31:04] <SolarNRG> labour
[12:31:09] <robin_sz> so, look at jodrell bank
[12:31:15] <robin_sz> see if you can learn something
[12:31:41] <robin_sz> see the gear racks?
[12:31:44] <SolarNRG> Shit that thing is huge
[12:31:48] <robin_sz> yes
[12:31:56] <robin_sz> and the gear racks, are relatively thin
[12:32:02] <robin_sz> but very large diameter
[12:32:11] <robin_sz> no coutnerbalance
[12:32:18] <robin_sz> as it pivots on its c of g
[12:32:24] <SolarNRG> 76m diam?
[12:32:27] <robin_sz> yes
[12:32:28] <SolarNRG> :O
[12:32:36] <robin_sz> and designed by engineers
[12:32:40] <SolarNRG> I haven't got space to make that in my flat
[12:32:45] <robin_sz> sigh
[12:32:56] <robin_sz> so divide by 20
[12:32:59] <archivist> go look at the falkirk wheel up the road and see how thing the gears are
[12:33:05] <archivist> thin
[12:33:08] <mrsun> SolarNRG, ive made a schematic somewhere of a logic gate with hysteresis and LDR resistors for the same thing
[12:33:23] <SolarNRG> I went in the inflatable balls on the falkirk wheel actually
[12:33:25] <mrsun> big threshold so the sun has to move alot before the output signal (either left or right) is high
[12:33:41] <robin_sz> ok im our
[12:33:44] <robin_sz> im out
[12:34:19] <SolarNRG> I got around that problem by slowing the stepper motors down, i.e. making a for loop counter 1 to 10 and only going one 1/10th speed when the ldrs were close to the sun, its now overdamped
[12:34:31] <SolarNRG> before it was underdamped and jolting
[12:34:33] <mrsun> mine is for running a DC motor
[12:34:54] <SolarNRG> I thought about doing this with loads of old windscreen wiper motors actually
[12:34:59] <mrsun> tho havent tried it in real life yet
[12:35:00] <SolarNRG> They're only a fiver from the scrappy
[12:35:01] <mrsun> only simulated
[12:35:37] <SolarNRG> I want steel gears for cheap, and I think the only way is to make them myself, and I've been told not to do that but to pay people to make them myself, but today I have a working wax gear
[12:36:13] <SolarNRG> So I think I can make my own gears, but I wanted your advice on the matter before I decided to get a better molding substance than latex
[12:36:16] <mrsun> SolarNRG, http://imagebin.org/212107
[12:36:37] <mrsun> but im not sure how it was, long time since a drew it =)
[12:36:45] <mrsun> R3 and R4 is for LDR i think
[12:37:18] <SolarNRG> That's silly, too many parts, I just used 4 LDRs, 5 10k ohm resistors, a phone socket and a square of stripboard
[12:37:24] <SolarNRG> Volts go up through one wire
[12:37:32] <SolarNRG> 4 voltages come back down
[12:37:38] <SolarNRG> And into the ADC of the arduino
[12:37:57] <mrsun> its 2 logic components, some resistors and a 5V reg (for running on for example car battery or solar panel or whatever)
[12:37:58] <robin_sz> hey SolarNRG one last thought for you
[12:38:03] <SolarNRG> go on
[12:38:13] <robin_sz> yur reflector is dish shaped right
[12:38:14] <mrsun> 2 logic ICs
[12:38:24] <SolarNRG> parabolic yeah
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[12:38:57] <robin_sz> can you think of any other dish shaped application that uses pivots etc to track a dish across the sky, and there are thousands in common use in the UK?
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[12:39:44] <archivist> google equatorial mount
[12:40:00] <robin_sz> with cheap actuators availble on ebay
[12:40:27] <archivist> almost no gears needed at all
[12:40:34] * robin_sz nods
[12:40:58] <robin_sz> they already got the cost down to a minimum
[12:41:04] <SolarNRG> Yeah but these are only engineered for telescopes with little surface area, they won't have as much wind forces to combat
[12:41:07] <SolarNRG> I looked into thi
[12:41:07] <SolarNRG> s
[12:41:17] <SolarNRG> And I decided I needed stronger, beefier gears
[12:41:38] <SolarNRG> Here's a vid of my burning stuff with my dish :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaL-OyhwD6o
[12:42:42] <robin_sz> no. wrong answer try again, nothing to do wit telescopes
[12:43:01] <SolarNRG> I don't know :(
[12:43:04] <robin_sz> hint:
[12:43:31] <robin_sz> I have one in my garden, 1.2m diameter .. it tracks acorss the scy with a precision of about 1 degree
[12:43:46] <robin_sz> a friend had a 3m one
[12:43:50] <robin_sz> but he was nuts
[12:44:11] <robin_sz> and no gears ...
[12:44:35] <robin_sz> and takes the wind load ..
[12:45:00] <SolarNRG> Dunno
[12:45:15] <robin_sz> actually, come to think of it, the 3m one bent the 6" diamter steel pip it was mounted on, was a nice parabola that
[12:45:37] <robin_sz> my 1,2m has never given any trouble though
[12:45:43] <SolarNRG> I don't get invited to a lot of private gardens here, and in Scotland, leaving your stuff in the communal garden is an invitation to get stuff stolen
[12:45:43] <mrsun> SolarNRG, just put a break on it? :) one that is locked when not activated and released when activated
[12:45:48] <mrsun> so it doesnt draw to much power =)
[12:46:17] <SolarNRG> The counterbalance takes strain off the motor
[12:46:52] <robin_sz> SolarNRG, well, have a think, they solved this already, for minimum cost ...
[12:47:24] <SolarNRG> What is it you're on about exactly?
[12:47:30] <SolarNRG> The thing in your garden?
[12:47:46] <robin_sz> why would I have a 1.2m parabola in my garden
[12:48:01] <SolarNRG> So you could reduce your energy bills
[12:48:05] <robin_sz> on a mount that lets it track the sky under electrical control
[12:48:14] <robin_sz> nope .. keep thinking
[12:48:27] <SolarNRG> so you can watch russian football?
[12:48:34] <robin_sz> now you are getting htere
[12:49:19] <robin_sz> it will pan horizon to horizon
[12:49:50] <robin_sz> and the whole mount was less than 100 including actuator
[12:50:01] <SolarNRG> ?? thats less than I paid in gears
[12:50:06] <robin_sz> correct
[12:51:15] <robin_sz> you could get away with single axis
[12:51:30] <robin_sz> and just adjust the tilt once a month
[12:51:45] <robin_sz> but you'll need 2 axis for full auto
[12:51:45] <SolarNRG> But that's no good for me, cos the sun's arc changes daily
[12:51:52] <SolarNRG> except near the solstice
[12:51:58] <robin_sz> you could get away with single axis
[12:51:59] <robin_sz> but you'll need 2 axis for full auto
[12:52:09] <SolarNRG> but what is it?
[12:52:20] <robin_sz> so add 50 to make it two axis
[12:52:51] <robin_sz> actually, probably 20
[12:53:19] <robin_sz> just replace the upper mount with a short actuator
[12:54:22] <SolarNRG> I still don't get what it is your on about
[12:54:26] <robin_sz> ah well
[12:54:58] <SolarNRG> Like what the BBC have on top of their vans?
[12:55:06] <robin_sz> not quite
[12:56:31] <SolarNRG> Why not just tell me or are you enjoying this guessing game?
[12:57:00] * JT-Shop should be making cannon parts instead of putzing about with the commutating reactor on the VMC
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[12:58:02] <robin_sz> well, it is kinda fun
[12:58:07] <robin_sz> its also kinda pointless
[12:58:18] <robin_sz> because, even though it is the ocrrect solution and very cheap
[12:58:32] <robin_sz> I suspect you are too fixed on your geared solution to listen
[12:58:40] <SolarNRG> Just give me an ebay link
[12:58:48] <SolarNRG> And I'll have a look
[12:59:16] <robin_sz> that would be too easy
[12:59:23] <robin_sz> however
[12:59:37] <robin_sz> you can make this with no machine tools
[12:59:48] <robin_sz> for less than 100 for single axis
[12:59:57] <robin_sz> and 125 maybe for two axis
[12:59:58] <SolarNRG> Belt and pulley system
[13:00:03] <SolarNRG> Bicycle gear and chain
[13:00:14] <robin_sz> and it will track a 2m dish horizon to horizon
[13:00:20] <robin_sz> 1 degree precision
[13:00:28] <robin_sz> and take your wind laod
[13:01:07] <robin_sz> my 1.2m dish does wobble a bit in high winds, but its never broken or let go
[13:01:23] <SolarNRG> Ok, jsut tell me how you do it
[13:02:05] <robin_sz> google "polar mount" and enjoy your afternoon
[13:02:15] <SolarNRG> thank you
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[13:18:42] <archivist> JT-Shop, do you have a real scope to look at the voltage waveforms
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[13:47:16] <JT-Shop> archivist: yes I have a Tektronix 2232 dual trace scope however I've never actually used it beyond running the basic tests so I'd need a bit of hand holding to use it
[13:49:11] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yu97EjkBVQ
[13:51:28] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: You only need to listen to the first 7 seconds =)
[13:59:54] <archivist> JT-Shop, some of the voltages are a "little" dangerous to a scope unless you have high voltage probes
[14:00:46] <JT-Shop> my probes are rated at 600v but the max input per channel is 400v
[14:02:42] <archivist> setting divide by 10 gets you 60 v for 600 in, but your voltages are around 600 so pushing your luck
[14:04:04] <JT-Shop> the only thing that is 600v is the dc buss
[14:04:34] <archivist> you can provide your own resistive dividers though to get into a safe region
[14:05:15] <archivist> I have a feeling your resonances are of that region anyway
[14:06:10] <archivist> you have to exceed a diodes forward voltage to conduct remember
[14:07:02] <JT-Shop> so am I measuring my phase converter output?
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[14:10:14] <archivist> you should see a nice sine wave at the phase converter, but I suspect it will be a horrible waveform
[14:12:48] <JT-Shop> going through the setup manual now
[14:15:44] <archivist> the commutating reactor thing is expecting a very low impedance from the main supply but you have a phase converter so impedances could be different and giving a resulting problem(resonance)
[14:16:33] <JT-Shop> that makes sense to me
[14:17:09] <archivist> its why dave wants you to try on a big generator
[14:17:17] <archivist> I think
[14:17:36] <archivist> or the other dave :)
[14:17:43] <JT-Shop> aye
[14:20:57] <JT-Shop> step 6 check the waveform aginnst the figure to see if the probe is correctly compensated. check
[14:21:19] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: Nap Time?
[14:21:23] <Jymmm> lol
[14:21:24] <JT-Shop> step 7 adjust the compensation if necessary. can't find where to adjust compensation!
[14:25:10] <archivist> an adjuster hole on the probe and also one at the connector
[14:25:23] <archivist> depends on probe
[14:25:33] <archivist> some have covers
[14:25:37] <JT-Shop> ah, I see one on the connector
[14:26:00] <JT-Shop> the probe only has a X1 X10 switch
[14:26:18] <archivist> have it on x10
[14:27:00] <archivist> the readings mean multiply by 10 on the display but really the probe is dividing
[14:27:31] <archivist> x1 means the scope gets all the voltage...splat
[14:28:12] <JT-Shop> ok
[14:32:01] <archivist> google tells me 2232 is a digital storage scope very useful
[14:32:38] <JT-Shop> as soon as I finger out how to use it lol
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[14:51:26] <JT-Shop> so if I want to see the wave form on the 120vac mains I clip the probe on the hot and the ground clip on the ground wire?
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[14:57:07] <cpresser> JT-Shop: to see the 50Hz you dont need the ground clip
[14:57:34] <JT-Shop> ok
[14:57:49] <archivist> the ground should be already made on the scopes mains in
[14:58:18] <archivist> except this is american wiring....
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[15:00:36] <JT-Shop> ok, I have a nice sinsuoidal wave form from the 120vac mains on the scope with a flat spot in top and bottom
[15:01:41] <cpresser> clipping?
[15:01:54] <JT-Shop> looks like it I guess
[15:02:16] <archivist> adjust scale reduce size of waveform
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[15:06:33] <archivist> is this centre tapped 110?
[15:07:42] <JT-Shop> http://imagebin.org/212122
[15:07:49] <JT-Shop> center tapped?
[15:08:49] <JT-Shop> the blank spot travels along the wave form
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[15:10:39] <archivist> ok not too bad, now leave that as the trigger and use your other channel to look at your three phases (care as voltages are higher)
[15:13:35] <JT-Shop> only the center phase B (generated phase) measured higher than 120v
[15:15:30] <archivist> should be able to see the 120 degree phase shift
[15:18:55] <ReadError> so
[15:19:02] <ReadError> cutting, climb vs. conventional
[15:19:13] <JT-Shop> climb
[15:19:20] <ReadError> ohrly
[15:19:27] <ReadError> my spindle spins CW
[15:19:34] <ReadError> and thats the direction of cut
[15:19:41] <ReadError> so i thought it would be conventional?
[15:20:26] <archivist> conventional for weedy machines
[15:21:21] <ReadError> not sure what you mean :)
[15:21:43] <ReadError> http://www.amazon.com/Mitutoyo-500-196-20-ABSOLUTE-Accuracy-Resolution/dp/B001C0ZPNO
[15:21:44] <ReadError> hmmmm
[15:21:56] <ReadError> i was told those are the industry standard?
[15:23:56] <JT-Shop> I don't think there is an "industry standard" for digital calipers...
[15:24:03] <JT-Shop> but it's the one I use
[15:24:56] <JT-Shop> <ReadError> my spindle spins CW
[15:24:56] <JT-Shop> <ReadError> and thats the direction of cut
[15:25:19] <JT-Shop> for a spiral cut? or what
[15:25:43] <ReadError> profiling
[15:25:49] <ReadError> i mean i used both yesteday
[15:25:49] <JT-Shop> cutting inside out or outside in
[15:25:52] <ReadError> and it cut awesome
[15:26:04] <ReadError> well, 2.5d cutting in this case
[15:26:23] <ReadError> but outside
[15:26:31] <JT-Shop> outside profile CW is climb cut with normal CW spindle
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[15:30:31] <archivist> those mitutoyo calipers are good
[15:31:22] <archivist> although the gibs can work loose after a few years hard work
[15:33:31] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: Oh, did you ever get to run that gunpowder test for my by chance?
[15:33:51] <archivist> I have some glass standards and the calipers are always right after a service
[15:34:15] <JT-Shop> Jymmm: forgot to do it in the excitment of shooting the cannon
[15:34:49] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: No prob, if you do get a chance, please do. Then I'll go from there =)
[15:35:39] <JT-Shop> ok, I'll be over there this afternoon for a fish fry... send me a mental message to do it about 3pm your time
[15:36:48] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: Ah, Telepaphy Reminders, gotcha ;)
[15:37:01] <JT-Shop> aye
[15:37:34] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: what did you use for fuse?
[15:37:39] <Jymmm> on the cannon
[15:37:43] <JT-Shop> cannon fuse
[15:38:09] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: how much is that and for how long?
[15:39:33] <JT-Shop> http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_106_666&products_id=1648
[15:40:11] <Jymmm> damn $28 hazmat fee
[15:41:30] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: does it flame/spark once lit, or more of a smolder?
[15:41:36] <JT-Shop> I think I got a 100' one and mine said American Saftey Fuse for $24
[15:43:05] <JT-Shop> http://www.skylighter.com/mall/product-details.asp?id=1478
[15:43:19] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: does it flame/spark once lit, or more of a smolder?
[15:43:31] <JT-Shop> watch the video again
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[15:44:59] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: I can't really tell from all the smoke
[15:46:00] <JT-Shop> it has some sparks near the fuse
[15:46:20] <Jymmm> ok, cool
[15:48:12] <JT-Shop> http://www.pyrodirect.com/ecom-prodshow/058-0105.html
[15:48:49] <JT-Shop> http://www.pyrodirect.com/ecom-prodshow/058-0148.html
[15:49:37] <JT-Shop> this one is more like it http://www.pyrodirect.com/ecom-prodshow/058-0148.html
[15:50:21] <Jymmm> yeow! I like the other one
[15:50:39] <Jymmm> 10s/ft
[15:51:28] <Jymmm> 17ft for $3, that's not too bad at all
[15:51:46] <Jymmm> lit with a punk too, nice http://www.pyrodirect.com/ecom-prodshow/058-0105.html
[15:52:45] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: You evil evil man you! Now I now why I like you so much, keep up the good work =)
[16:05:48] <Loetmichel> sooo, prototype done... now i have to make 28 others... preferably without scratched acryl glass :-) -> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=13188
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[16:09:17] <bostjan_2> Guys, after 2 years of wathing i have now 3 axis router made by me. All i want to say is THANK YOU for excellent peace of software..
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[16:25:56] <JT-Shop> got a photo of your machine?
[16:28:22] <JT-Shop> phase a after phase converter http://imagebin.org/212137
[16:28:53] <archivist> JT-Shop, with or without load ?
[16:29:05] <JT-Shop> phase b (generated phase) http://imagebin.org/212139
[16:29:07] * archivist expected two traces
[16:29:18] <JT-Shop> could not get 2 traces to work
[16:29:30] <JT-Shop> just the machine at idle
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[16:30:02] <JT-Shop> there is a horz line on each trace that blinks on and off
[16:30:25] <Loetmichel> JT-Shop: steinmetz?
[16:30:32] <Loetmichel> or vfd?
[16:30:35] <JT-Shop> both traces are at the same settings
[16:30:44] <archivist> phase a looks very different voltage to b, b is also distorted in comparison to a
[16:30:47] <JT-Shop> rotary phase converter
[16:31:01] <JT-Shop> yea b is the generated phase
[16:31:38] <archivist> we await c
[16:31:49] <JT-Shop> looks the same as a
[16:32:17] <Loetmichel> hmmm like a ward-leonard?
[16:32:42] <JT-Shop> what's a ward-leonard?
[16:32:51] <archivist> ward-leonard has dc in it somewhere?
[16:33:05] <archivist> old fashioned speed control
[16:33:06] <Loetmichel> it has
[16:33:21] * archivist has one in the garage
[16:34:06] <archivist> it may get scrapped soon, I get space and money then
[16:34:34] <Loetmichel> forget leonard, i meant a rotary converter consisting of a variable speed series wound motor and a synchonus generator on the same shaft
[16:35:19] <JT-Shop> no, just a 3 phase motor with run caps between the phases to create the missing phase
[16:35:52] <Loetmichel> ah, i see
[16:36:11] <Loetmichel> then the "strange" looking phases are perfectly normal.
[16:36:42] <archivist> but when the full load is on what do the phases look like
[16:38:20] <JT-Shop> kinda hard to give it a full load but I can load it up some to see if they differ
[16:54:30] <JT-Shop> no commutating reactor phase A http://imagebin.org/212142
[16:55:05] <JT-Shop> no commutating reactor phase B http://imagebin.org/212143
[16:55:11] <bostjan_2> JT-Shop, i wll post after cosmetics. few days
[16:55:18] <JT-Shop> ok
[16:55:47] * JT-Shop goes to put the commutating reactor back into the circuit
[16:57:41] <bostjan_2> psha, can i ask a question about webcam. When i have HARPIA, camera works nice, but in axis window there is like 1 /2 second delay. Any idea? And i cant get the cursot text onscreen also..
[16:58:07] <bostjan_2> i have loguitech webcam STX..
[17:00:50] <psha> harpia?
[17:04:15] <bostjan_2> Harpia is excellent tool for image manipulation..
[17:05:21] <psha> try running axis without camview and look into harpia
[17:07:35] <bostjan_2> That combination works like charm..
[17:07:55] <ReadError> so
[17:08:11] <ReadError> i took a part from concept, to toolpath in less than 30 minutes :)
[17:08:17] <ReadError> took me a week before
[17:10:38] <psha> and if you run camview externaly?
[17:10:39] <psha> just to be sure
[17:12:38] <bostjan_2> Psha, please bear that i am new to Linux..
[17:12:47] <Jymmm> http://www.theverge.com/2012/5/12/3014855/postal-service-banning-international-shipments-lithium-batteries
[17:12:56] <bostjan_2> I should do it via synaptic, yes?
[17:13:20] <psha> i mean run axis and then run 'camview-emc' manualy
[17:13:23] <psha> just as for harpie
[17:13:27] <psha> harpia
[17:14:05] <bostjan_2> You should chech. Has some edge finders and other stuff. Nice..
[17:14:10] <bostjan_2> check
[17:14:37] <Jymmm> USPS BANS INTERNATIONAL SHIPMENT OF ELECTRONICS CONTAINING LITHIUM BATTERIES http://www.theverge.com/2012/5/12/3014855/postal-service-banning-international-shipments-lithium-batteries
[17:19:00] <JT-Shop> with commutating reactor in the circuit I can issue S2000 M3 and spindle runs
[17:19:32] <JT-Shop> without commutating reactor S2000 M3 will fault out the drive, S1000 M3 will work...
[17:19:50] <ReadError> whats a good camera ?
[17:20:23] <bostjan_2> ReadError- depend what you need it for.
[17:20:47] <JT-Shop> iphone is a good camera
[17:21:05] <psha> older tyres had good cameras
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[17:21:30] <ReadError> http://bgp.nu/~tom/pub/tabs-nocntl.png
[17:25:25] <ReadError> what you think they used for that?
[17:25:30] <ReadError> is that Tom_itx's ?
[17:26:35] <psha> maybe eslavko
[17:26:41] <psha> i've seen that screenshot already :)
[17:26:55] <psha> however ~tom tells as that it's not eslavko )
[17:28:41] <ReadError> USB ?
[17:30:55] <bostjan_2> v4l control panel & mplayer works good
[17:31:43] <bostjan_2> camview gives me:
[17:31:46] <bostjan_2> ** (camview:8176): WARNING **: Unable to load pixbuf
[17:31:54] <archivist> JT-Shop, looking at the waveform without the reactor, Im not surprised, I think maybe you need to adjust the caps on the phase generator
[17:32:05] <psha> that's not error
[17:35:09] <bostjan_2> but black window is..
[17:37:03] <bostjan_2> that is next i get in terminal :
[17:37:05] <bostjan_2> Warning: /dev/video0 does not support VIDIOC_CROPCAP
[17:37:05] <bostjan_2> libv4lconvert: Error decompressing JPEG: unknown huffman code: 0000ffff
[17:37:22] <bostjan_2> What have i slept?
[17:44:29] <ReadError> wow
[17:44:36] <ReadError> i was trying to see what cameras worked well
[17:44:41] <ReadError> found a post from psha from 2001
[17:44:51] <ReadError> http://psha.org.ru/p/0001-Added-reparent.patch
[17:47:09] <psha> ReadError: heh, that's 2011, not 2001 :)
[17:47:29] <psha> bostjan_2: black window is not nice
[17:47:55] <psha> unplug camera, run 'modprobe vivi' and run camview
[17:48:04] <psha> modprobe - from root (sudo)
[17:48:24] <bostjan_2> i learned something till now..
[17:48:43] <ReadError> From 63942679046c9d5a2942c257651270090d6b30d5 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
[17:49:01] <ReadError> oh timestamps must be wrong
[17:49:04] <ReadError> so
[17:49:12] <ReadError> whats a good camera with known compatability?
[17:49:46] <bostjan_2> psha, is that correct?
[17:49:49] <bostjan_2> sudo modprobe vivi
[17:49:49] <bostjan_2> WARNING: All config files need .conf: /etc/modprobe.d/emc2, it will be ignored in a future release.
[17:49:53] <psha> yes
[17:50:03] <psha> have you unplugged camera?
[17:50:27] <psha> now you should get another /dev/video0 device for testing
[17:53:07] <bostjan_2> vivi device?
[17:54:16] <psha> yes
[17:54:22] <psha> virtual video
[17:54:42] <bostjan_2> black.
[17:54:51] <bostjan_2> do i ned some libcam...
[17:54:54] <bostjan_2> need
[17:55:17] <psha> you need software opengl
[17:55:31] <psha> http://psha.org.ru/b/camview-emc.html
[17:55:40] <psha> read troubleshooting section
[17:55:51] <bostjan_2> will do so!
[17:56:15] <bostjan_2> if i have ati radeon 1650 in system,
[17:56:35] <bostjan_2> isnt it somewhere opengl driver for download??
[17:56:58] <psha> read link )
[17:57:33] <psha> also you may doublecheck if that's gl problem with 'example' input device in camview
[18:01:10] <bostjan_2> readed, installed, works now. Camview works, and in separate window from EMC there is no delay..
[18:01:34] <psha> congratulations :)
[18:02:12] <bostjan_2> congratulations to you. Wou have written the software.
[18:03:27] <bostjan_2> i have installed camview-emc. Should i inser cam lines to ini file and try??
[18:03:33] <bostjan_2> insert
[18:04:51] <psha> yes
[18:06:51] <bostjan_2> EMBED_TAB_NAME = Camera
[18:06:51] <bostjan_2> EMBED_TAB_COMMAND = camview-emc -w {XID}
[18:07:04] <bostjan_2> works an NO delay (well, maybie 1 frame
[18:07:14] <bostjan_2> ) That is super!!
[18:09:17] <bostjan_2> Well, i dont have a position text on video window..
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[18:38:06] <jthornton> anyone know what this means when trying to send mail in Evolution? STARTTLS command failed: TLS currently unavailable
[18:40:12] <jthornton> nevermind I fingered it out
[18:48:23] <JT-Shop> archivist: I'm all ears on which way to adjust the caps on the phase converter...
[18:50:01] <ReadError> hey so psha
[18:50:10] <ReadError> whats a good magnified camera
[18:50:16] <ReadError> with known compatability?
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[19:03:23] <andypugh> ReadError: You seem to be assuming that the guy who writes software to enable something suddenly becomes expert in the hardware it drives.
[19:05:05] <ReadError> well it was more a general question
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[19:14:06] <archivist> JT-Shop, Im guessing plus or minus a bit and suck it and see
[19:14:36] <ReadError> anyone rigged up a vacuum on some locline ?
[19:14:45] <JT-Shop> I've tried that quite a lot actually minus seems worse
[19:14:45] <ReadError> and mounted it on the z axis
[19:15:35] <archivist> JT-Shop, other option is to change the reactor value
[19:15:40] <JT-Shop> btw I just scoped my CHNC phase converter and both wave forms look similar like the first two I showed with the generated one a bit taller
[19:17:56] <archivist> I think another problem is size of motor in the phase generator, I think the over sizing may have some science to it
[19:19:05] <JT-Shop> it is oversized
[19:19:46] <JT-Shop> my CHNC runs fine on a 10hp phase converter the VMC has a 15hp and used to have a 10hp
[19:20:22] <archivist> this reactor thing is on one leg?
[19:20:38] <JT-Shop> no, it is three phase
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[19:24:29] <Loetmichel> http://bambuser.com/v/2639261 <- milling PBCs ;-)
[19:28:42] <fragalot> Loetmichel: What's your spindle speed & feed rate that you're using?
[19:30:03] <andypugh> I didn't realise that Hardinge used the same style of toolpost on their manual lathes as on the CNC ones? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hardinge-HCT1-Manual-Lathe-/150814028865
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[19:31:37] <Loetmichel> fragalot: 24kRPM
[19:31:39] <Loetmichel> F800
[19:32:13] <fragalot> hm. i've never tried to go over F75 with mine at 28k
[19:32:20] * fragalot will try this next time
[19:32:33] <fragalot> Loetmichel: simple carbide V-bit ?
[19:32:33] <archivist> andypugh, we saw a different toolpost at a dealer http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2009/2009_06_29_Tool_dealer_hardinge_lathe/IMG_0263.JPG
[19:33:12] <fragalot> it's done! :o
[19:33:15] <Loetmichel> fragalot: correct
[19:33:54] <archivist> andypugh, I think that is what we would call a capstan rather than manual
[19:34:15] <fragalot> Loetmichel: that's a pretty nice machine btw - homemade?
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[19:36:21] <andypugh> archivist: I think you are right, no leadscrew.
[19:36:28] <toastydeath> andypugh archivist: the hc is a turret lathe, the hlc is an engine lathe.
[19:36:47] <toastydeath> not a capstan
[19:36:58] <archivist> turret/capstan not a lot of difference
[19:37:14] <andypugh> I think in the US a "Capstan" is a vertical.
[19:37:31] <toastydeath> big different - on a capstan, the turret is fixed on a slide; examples are the smaller W&S lathes and Gilsholt lathes
[19:37:52] <toastydeath> the capstan unbolts from the ways, slides as a unit, then rebolts before you can use the turret slide
[19:38:12] <toastydeath> so while the bed of the lathe might be 20
[19:38:22] <toastydeath> " long, the capstan might only be able to travel on its slide for 6-8 inches
[19:38:40] <toastydeath> a turret lathe has the turret mounted on a normal carriage and can traverse the whole length of the bed
[19:39:54] <toastydeath> here's a capstan lathe
[19:39:57] <toastydeath> http://www.biggersmachine.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/ws2.jpg
[19:40:06] <toastydeath> and here's a turret lathe
[19:40:07] <toastydeath> http://s3.amazonaws.com/machinetools_production/uploads/1171604/20111110084816269_M_1_.jpg
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[19:43:40] <Loetmichel> fragalot: yes
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[19:49:05] <Loetmichel> i am amazed that the linuxCNC computer can cope with Bambuser, the webcam AND the milling ;-)
[19:51:58] <alex4nder> ReadError: re: loc-line.. I'm buying a setup right now.
[19:52:07] <alex4nder> as well as for coolant.
[19:57:33] <ReadError> think it would work?
[19:57:38] <ReadError> to suck up the chips
[19:58:42] <ReadError> niiiceee....got my d525 running
[19:59:32] <alex4nder> yah, it works great.
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[20:01:23] <ReadError> would that help with the chip control issue you spoke of?
[20:02:05] <Loetmichel> sooo, last two pcbs, then the material is empty... shi* i have to make 10 more ....
[20:02:28] <Loetmichel> where do i get 1,5mm sinkle side copper clad PCB on a SUNDAY?
[20:03:09] <alex4nder> ReadError: chip control?
[20:03:14] <alex4nder> Loetmichel: radioshack
[20:04:03] <ReadError> well, not sure if thats the right term
[20:04:14] <ReadError> but you spoke of when cutting aluminum chips getting in the way
[20:04:20] <alex4nder> oh
[20:04:32] <alex4nder> yah it'd help a bit, but I think I'm going to use coolant for that.
[20:04:36] <ReadError> chip management
[20:04:51] <alex4nder> I want to get the vacuum for PCB and wood
[20:04:58] <ReadError> so ealier i took a part from concept -> toolpath in under 30 minutes :)
[20:05:03] <ReadError> im getting faster
[20:05:08] <alex4nder> nice
[20:05:08] <ReadError> it took me over a week last time
[20:05:25] <ReadError> visualmill is nice stuff
[20:05:42] <Loetmichel> alex4nder: germany... no shopping on sundays
[20:05:46] <alex4nder> Loetmichel: sigh
[20:05:55] <alex4nder> ReadError: does it do trochoidal milling, or peel milling?
[20:06:13] <alex4nder> I've never used it.
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[20:06:55] <syyl_ws> mh, what is peel milling?
[20:07:07] <syyl_ws> also one of those highspeed strategies?
[20:07:10] <alex4nder> yah
[20:07:19] <alex4nder> I've been using it on the Taig
[20:07:36] <alex4nder> and it's amazing the improvement
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[20:08:18] <syyl_ws> i tried it a work
[20:08:43] <syyl_ws> not a real "highspeed strategie", but it gives good results
[20:08:45] <syyl_ws> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05FUiIqNLnE
[20:09:08] <syyl_ws> machining a 10mm deep slot at full depth in one cut
[20:09:36] <syyl_ws> no, the machine is not built for that ;)
[20:09:45] <alex4nder> but yah, that
[20:09:56] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=13191 <- 16 done, 12 to go... tomorrow will be a soldering session i guess ;-)
[20:10:08] <syyl_ws> but seeing that blue chips flake out of the slot
[20:10:11] <syyl_ws> is pretty nice :D
[20:10:17] <syyl_ws> and its running very smooth
[20:10:26] <ReadError> alex4nder: i dont see anything called that under 3axis
[20:10:29] <syyl_ws> at least its a pretty tough toolsteel i machine there..
[20:11:06] <alex4nder> syyl_ws: yah, the taig "liked" the ramped load into continous.. it just sounds good.
[20:11:28] <syyl_ws> :)
[20:11:36] <syyl_ws> but its tough on the sliding ways :\
[20:11:46] <alex4nder> yah
[20:12:04] <syyl_ws> i also used plunge milling
[20:12:10] <syyl_ws> for deep pockets thats nice
[20:13:54] <alex4nder> yah, I've done some pocket work.. it made me want pressurized air/coolant to get the chips out
[20:14:19] <syyl_ws> flood cooleant > everything else :D
[20:14:30] <alex4nder> yah, that's my next step
[20:14:38] <syyl_ws> fiddled a lot around with air/cooleant stuff
[20:14:40] <alex4nder> what coolant do you use?
[20:14:45] <syyl_ws> but nothing against flood...
[20:14:50] <syyl_ws> some water mixed stuff
[20:14:52] <syyl_ws> uhm
[20:14:57] <syyl_ws> had one from shell
[20:14:59] <alex4nder> soluble oils or pure synthetic?
[20:15:32] <Jymmm> I need an up/down motion to use squish a plastic tube flat so it can be 1) cut to length, and 2) heat sealed. Need to be electric or battery powered, and solenoids seem to have a specific length of throw that I may need to adjust. I do have a few steppers/drivers available to try as well. Can anyone think of simple way to come up with a cutter/sealer by chance? It's like I have the puzzle pieces, but not picture of what it looks like to go
[20:15:32] <Jymmm> from.
[20:16:05] <Jymmm> s/use//
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[20:17:30] <syyl_ws> shell sitala dy 2206 i had last, alex4nder
[20:17:36] <alex4nder> cool thanks
[20:18:13] <syyl_ws> stinks a bit like dead fish in pure form
[20:18:20] <ReadError> so i learned we have both MSC and mcmaster here in atlanta
[20:18:21] <syyl_ws> but that goes away when mixed with water
[20:18:25] <alex4nder> how do you deal with sump bacteria?
[20:18:30] <alex4nder> and tramp oil?
[20:18:45] <syyl_ws> no problems, it seems to be pretty durable
[20:18:53] <alex4nder> cool
[20:19:05] <Jymmm> oil and bacteria eating enzymes?
[20:19:09] <syyl_ws> the tank has a oil skimmer, that holds oil back
[20:19:20] <syyl_ws> in fact its a piece of sheet metal ;)
[20:21:52] <alex4nder> ReadError: http://www.amazon.com/Loc-Line-Coolant-Magnetic-Manifold-Piece/dp/B002065OXK/ref=sr_1_5?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1336854097&sr=1-5 <- i'm starting with this
[20:22:12] <syyl_ws> good ol' locline :D
[20:22:37] <alex4nder> yup
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[20:22:56] <alex4nder> I'm thinking of hooking it to the Z column, but not hook it up to the spindle.
[20:23:03] <Jymmm> Does a CAM have a lot of toque behind it?
[20:23:08] <Jymmm> torque
[20:23:26] <alex4nder> what?
[20:24:04] <ReadError> this is strange, on this mobo the servo thread is less than the base
[20:24:14] <ReadError> my other one, the servo was much higher
[20:24:15] <A1Sheds> Jymmm: http://chicago.craigslist.org/nwi/bfs/3007643917.html
[20:24:16] <alex4nder> what're you seeing?
[20:24:21] <Jymmm> If I put a cam on a 270 in oz stepper motor, will it exert a lot of force on what the cam is pressing against?
[20:24:36] <ReadError> alex4nder: with glxgears and '
[20:24:37] <alex4nder> depends on the leverage the cam gives, right?
[20:24:42] <ReadError> 'cat /dev/urandom'
[20:24:44] <ReadError> ~10k
[20:24:45] <Jymmm> I dont know
[20:24:52] <ReadError> but otherwise, about 5ish
[20:24:53] <alex4nder> ReadError: you running isolcpus?
[20:25:02] <ReadError> i havnt touched any configs yet
[20:25:09] <ReadError> just vanilla install
[20:25:22] <alex4nder> that'll be when it gets interesting
[20:25:39] <ReadError> nope
[20:25:46] <gene__> Andy: I just tried the non-zero entry in the touch off here in the mill, same result. Any progress with this
[20:25:50] <alex4nder> with an isolated CPU I see 5.4 uS as absolute worst case.
[20:26:09] <ReadError> can i set that with sysctl ? or would it require a kernel recompile?
[20:26:11] <alex4nder> and that's with hours of glxgears, compiling kernels, etc.
[20:26:15] <alex4nder> ReadError: kernel argument at boot
[20:26:20] <gene__> That a bit bigger than mine but still great
[20:26:29] <ReadError> ahhh ill throw it in grub then and try
[20:26:42] <alex4nder> typical on this board is 2.4 uS
[20:27:09] <gene__> I'm seeing about 2.45 here
[20:27:17] <alex4nder> which board/cpu?
[20:27:57] <Jymmm> A1Sheds: Those dont get hot enough, I've already tried 8 times it just barely puts a hole in it much less seal.
[20:28:50] <Jymmm> What I'm looking for is to automate the squishing and cutting, I need the motion aspects not so much the heating part =)
[20:29:05] <A1Sheds> run it at 220
[20:29:41] <Jymmm> A1Sheds: doens't matter, it only has a bottom heater, no top heating element being the issue.
[20:29:57] <A1Sheds> are the tubes filled with something?
[20:30:18] <Jymmm> A1Sheds: Yes, but I have the heater issue resolved already, I need the mechanical now.
[20:30:40] <A1Sheds> yesh, why I was wondering if they are filled
[20:31:12] <A1Sheds> are you sealing and cutting?
[20:31:24] <Jymmm> yes
[20:31:51] <Jymmm> A1Sheds: But, I'm thinking of just using razor blades for the cutting,
[20:32:26] <Jymmm> As the tubes need to be cut-to-length in advance of sealing
[20:32:50] <gene__> jymmm, a piece of jointer knife would be many times more durable
[20:33:04] <Jymmm> gene__: those break-away knifes?
[20:33:37] <Jymmm> gene__: I'm not sure what a "jointer knife" is.
[20:33:58] <Jymmm> gene__: OH,
[20:34:14] <A1Sheds> http://www.ebay.com/itm/12-Manual-Hand-Shear-Shearer-Sheet-Metal-Steel-Plastic-Brass-cutter-/360457448356?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53ecf02ba4
[20:34:23] <A1Sheds> integrate one of these
[20:34:25] <gene__> No my jointer uses a piece of A-10 about 6" long. Saw off a piece big enough to do the cut with a straight plung motion, against a flat piece of HDPE maybe?
[20:34:27] <Jymmm> gene__: Ok, hmmm kinda pricy, but I guess doable
[20:34:37] <A1Sheds> or just the blades
[20:35:31] <Jymmm> A1Sheds: Yeah, I was kinda thinking something along those lines, using a stepper motor + cam wheel for the motion
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[20:36:18] <Jymmm> it's only 0.6mm wall PP tubing
[20:36:30] <gene__> They ain't "cheap" from Delta, but you get 2 to the pack for the 6" tabletopper, and you could easily cut a dozen 3/4" long blades from the pair
[20:36:51] <Jymmm> gene__: and they are razor sharp?
[20:38:01] <gene__> Razor blades might do then, sharp, damn betcha, don't ask me how I know, I just say you shouldn't trim fingernails with them, they have no idea when to stop...
[20:38:48] <archivist> gene__, use an angle grinder, at least it feels warm when too close
[20:38:50] <Jymmm> gene__: lol, Yeah besides the fingernail aspect the kerf might be a bit too much
[20:39:02] <Jymmm> lol @ archivist
[20:39:06] <gene__> That too :)
[20:39:10] <archivist> dont ask how I know
[20:41:16] <archivist> I was wearing gloves btw, but the vibration was so great that the first I knew there was a problem was the warmth when the knotted wire brush was shortening my nail :)
[20:41:35] <archivist> what guard?
[20:42:12] <Jymmm> does the ID/OD of a cam wheel act much like gears do in respect torque and speed?
[20:42:50] <gene__> Dumb. A wire can come out and penetrate an eye, a looooonnnngggg way
[20:43:27] <archivist> gene__, thats why its at right angles to the eyes at all times
[20:43:58] <gene__> jymmm figure the ramp angles. Std friction math should get you in the ball park. Really close math? use a roller follower
[20:44:01] <archivist> and wearing glasses
[20:44:20] <gene__> I have 70 years of that in.
[20:45:23] <Jymmm> gene__: Ah, tyvm. Do they have the cam "offset" already built in sorta thing?
[20:46:38] <gene__> ISTR reading something about it in the handbook 2-3 years ago, long since forgot the details, but I expect nits still in there.
[20:47:53] <Jymmm> It be nice if I could find a "cam + bearing" off the shelf to just slap on the motor
[20:47:56] <gene__> I guess thats what I get for having entirely too many hobbies in my dotage :)
[20:48:42] <Jymmm> gene__: no such thing as too many hobbies. time and finance is another story =)
[20:49:02] <gene__> I wasn't going to mention that :(
[20:49:20] <Jymmm> or make one hobby pay for another hobby
[20:50:21] <gene__> Thast thought has crossed my mind, many times, but other than electronics, the payday has been sporadic at best.
[20:50:24] <jdhNC> http://tinyurl.com/7q2663k
[20:50:28] <jdhNC> I pay for a lot of stuff with those
[20:50:36] <archivist> I try to get my archive hobby pay for the internet costs :)
[20:51:26] <gene__> found, or flaked yourself?
[20:52:16] <jdhNC> what does flaked mean?
[20:52:20] <gene__> looks like stone knives anyway
[20:52:27] <Jymmm> jdhNC: chipped using another stone
[20:52:47] <jdhNC> oh... they are megalodon teeth
[20:53:02] <Jymmm> ah, they look like arrowheads
[20:53:09] <gene__> Ahh, 10,000 times rarer, nice
[20:53:50] <jdhNC> http://tinyurl.com/d2burvk from a previous trip.
[20:54:06] <jdhNC> today's aren't so great, only 1 > 5"
[20:54:16] <jdhNC> (the boards are 2x6)
[20:55:00] <gene__> Played right, could pay off the mortgage
[20:55:41] <jdhNC> they have paid for lots of dive gear.
[20:55:59] <jdhNC> 1st kid starts college in the fall though so I will probably be broke for the next 5-15 years
[20:56:04] <gene__> I'll bet, first class stuff too...
[20:56:20] <Jymmm> jdhNC: Flaking begins around 1:20 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6QO2DthGPc
[20:56:40] <jdhNC> yeah, just needed some context (or better pics of meg teeth)
[20:57:59] <Jymmm> jdhNC: what is "HUD" ?
[20:57:59] <SolarNRG> I AM DRUNK!
[20:58:08] <jdhNC> Heads Up Display
[20:58:12] <ReadError> hey yall
[20:58:13] <ReadError> so
[20:58:14] <Jymmm> jdhNC: ah
[20:58:22] <ReadError> my dad wants to carve some new handles for a knife
[20:58:36] <ReadError> is there a way i can scan in the old handles on a flatbed scanner
[20:58:39] <jdhNC> in this case, blinky LED's that flash out the O2 reading
[20:58:42] <alex4nder> ReadError: yes
[20:58:43] <ReadError> and scale it, convert to something i can machine?
[20:58:47] <gene__> Gotta put the lawn mower away & go see who's cooking dinner, probably A. Jackson
[20:58:54] <gene__> later
[20:58:55] <alex4nder> ReadError: or if you were a badass, you'd make a 3D probe
[20:59:02] <alex4nder> and reconstruct the handle from a mesh
[20:59:04] <ReadError> yea im far from that bad ass ;)
[20:59:10] <alex4nder> haha
[20:59:15] <ReadError> i was thinking about adding a camera though
[20:59:19] <alex4nder> me too
[20:59:28] <jdhNC> speaking of probes, anyone want to sell/make me one cheap?
[20:59:29] <alex4nder> for scanning, or streaming your mill?
[20:59:36] <alex4nder> jdhNC: make me one
[20:59:37] <ReadError> streaming
[20:59:39] <ReadError> and alignment
[20:59:40] <Jymmm> gene__: ok, I'll bite... oh, heh Hello Dominos this will be for delivery...
[20:59:44] <alex4nder> ReadError: I'm thinking the same thing
[20:59:52] <alex4nder> CNC mills are like barbies
[20:59:57] <ReadError> lol
[20:59:59] <ReadError> for sure
[21:00:13] <jdhNC> blonde, with nice boobs?
[21:00:19] <alex4nder> mine, yah
[21:00:26] <Jymmm> plastic?
[21:00:36] <jdhNC> saline maybe
[21:00:48] <jdhNC> hmm, my router is mostly plastic
[21:00:55] <ReadError> alex4nder: know of any with known compatability?
[21:00:57] <ReadError> usb
[21:01:05] <alex4nder> ReadError: compatibility with what? linux?
[21:01:08] <ReadError> yea
[21:01:16] <alex4nder> I haven't looked closely enough
[21:01:17] <ReadError> w/o having to recompile the kernel for special moduels and such
[21:01:22] <ReadError> modules*
[21:01:39] <alex4nder> whatever, I've got Debian packages now for LinuxCNC.. building the kernel is easy
[21:01:48] <jdhNC> http://www.ebay.com/itm/180876290153
[21:01:52] <alex4nder> I had to do that to get my wireless working.
[21:01:59] <jdhNC> that was my backup enclosure if I didn't get the other one,.
[21:02:57] <ReadError> yea i mean its simple to do
[21:03:33] <alex4nder> based on what people had said, I though it was going to be a lot harder to get LinuxCNC up and running
[21:04:04] <jdhNC> it's pretty easy if you aren't wedded to windows.
[21:04:15] <alex4nder> I mean, on top of a new distribution
[21:04:19] <alex4nder> besides Ubuntu
[21:04:38] <alex4nder> doing a clean build on debian just required unfucking RTAI's build process
[21:07:04] <ReadError> http://www.amazon.com/Aven-26700-300-Microscope-Mega-Pixel-Magnification/dp/B004M8SQ6Q/ref=pd_cp_e_1
[21:07:11] <ReadError> that looks nice
[21:08:14] <jdhNC> we use DinoCam's at work for tooling inspection
[21:08:36] <archivist> ReadError, make sure the pixel qty is not interpolated from a crappy vga
[21:09:58] <alex4nder> ok!
[21:10:04] <alex4nder> vacuum and coolant loc-line ordered.
[21:10:08] <alex4nder> now I need coolant.
[21:10:36] <alex4nder> and a pump
[21:10:39] <ReadError> they have linux software it says in a review
[21:10:52] <ReadError> so to make the basin, you cut the foam
[21:10:59] <ReadError> and poured the concrete over it in a box?
[21:11:07] <ReadError> fliped, removed the foam?
[21:11:13] <alex4nder> yup
[21:11:27] <alex4nder> but I made the box out of foam too
[21:11:37] <alex4nder> and sealed all edges with silicone
[21:12:44] <ReadError> is it re-enforced ?
[21:12:53] <ReadError> or just straight concreate
[21:13:16] <alex4nder> it has welded steel lattice in the buttom
[21:13:17] <alex4nder> er bottom
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[21:21:53] <ReadError> did you mold the nuts inside it to bolt the mill down?
[21:22:05] <alex4nder> I drilled it after the fact
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[21:29:05] <alex4nder> ok
[21:29:07] <alex4nder> pump ordered
[21:30:03] <pfred1> hammer made http://www.instructables.com/id/Brass-Hammer-Build/
[21:31:08] <alex4nder> nice
[21:32:26] <pfred1> thanks
[21:32:42] <ReadError> yall use collet wrenches?
[21:32:46] <alex4nder> yup
[21:32:56] <ReadError> just thinner?
[21:33:00] <ReadError> ide need 2 i guess
[21:33:06] <pfred1> I
[21:33:08] <alex4nder> yah, you need a 1" and a 25 mm
[21:33:14] <pfred1> I've had to make a collet wrench
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[21:37:15] <alex4nder> well, I hope 300 GPH is enough
[21:37:32] <alex4nder> direct-drive pump
[21:37:59] <pfred1> I have a little giant
[21:38:02] <pfred1> well 2
[21:38:05] <alex4nder> that's what this is
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[21:38:12] <pfred1> yeah little giants are nice
[21:41:50] <alex4nder> I'm going with quarter-inch locline
[21:41:58] <alex4nder> and 2 1/2" for the vacuum
[21:42:55] <ReadError> pump i have has to be primed
[21:44:20] <ReadError> didnt know they made locline that big
[21:44:22] <pfred1> they all do
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[21:44:56] <alex4nder> ok
[21:44:58] <alex4nder> should be here wednesday
[21:46:12] <ReadError> http://www.amazon.com/Loc-Line-Coolant-Assembly-Acetal-Copolymer/dp/B006VKESA6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1336859157&sr=8-1
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[21:46:23] <ReadError> 1/2", plus they have a shopvac adapter i see
[21:46:44] <pfred1> what are you going to try to do vacuum up your coolant?
[21:47:06] <ReadError> pfred1: i was going to set one up just to keep my work surface clean while cutting
[21:47:12] <alex4nder> ReadError: you're going to want a bigger mouth I think
[21:47:15] <alex4nder> than 1/2"
[21:47:25] <ReadError> i dont see anything larger on amazon
[21:47:51] <pfred1> we'd sit there with chip brushes and well brush
[21:48:13] <ReadError> i have a steel brush
[21:48:15] <alex4nder> ReadError: http://www.amazon.com/Loc-Line-Component-Copolymer-Elements-Segment/dp/B006R9OV94/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1336859287&sr=8-1
[21:48:22] <alex4nder> http://www.amazon.com/Loc-Line-Vacuum-Component-Copolymer-Rectangular/dp/B006VKD1I6/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1336859287&sr=8-2
[21:48:23] <ReadError> will that damage the endmill?
[21:48:40] <pfred1> no you get those disposable china bristle brushes
[21:48:43] <alex4nder> http://www.amazon.com/Loc-Line-Vacuum-Component-Copolymer-Adapter/dp/B006T5KPCS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1336859319&sr=8-1
[21:48:49] <pfred1> like 2" is a good size
[21:48:58] <pfred1> you get them by the 3 dozen pack
[21:49:09] <ReadError> its called a 'chip brush' ?
[21:49:17] <pfred1> that is what we called them
[21:49:27] <pfred1> but they are china bristle brushes I think
[21:49:41] <pfred1> I have a pic of one I think sec
[21:50:13] <alex4nder> that's what they're called
[21:50:15] <pfred1> look in the left hand well of the table http://www.instructables.com/file/F552F1LH1YOB8T5/?size=ORIGINAL
[21:50:35] <pfred1> that is a china bristle chip brush
[21:50:44] <alex4nder> ReadError: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELfONtG_Zkk#t=2m22
[21:50:50] <alex4nder> ^- chip brush + taig
[21:51:00] <pfred1> yeah don't machine without one
[21:51:12] <ReadError> looks like a normal paint brush :)
[21:51:23] <pfred1> yeah it is but disposable cheap junk
[21:51:36] <pfred1> not that i throw them away one lasts a long time
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[21:51:59] <alex4nder> ReadError: you wouldn't want to paint with one
[21:52:07] <alex4nder> unless you like paint that looks like shit
[21:52:14] <pfred1> it is what you use for general chip moving
[21:52:37] <pfred1> I mean I guess you could shop vac too but for cleaning the vise to load a piece I brush
[21:52:53] <pfred1> or to just you know knock some chips away from where you're working
[21:53:12] <pfred1> I'd be lost without a chip brush
[21:54:17] <alex4nder> I use the vacuum a lot when I'm doing anything with wood
[21:54:32] <pfred1> I knock it on the floor and sweep it up
[21:54:35] <ReadError> i should make one of those collet things like you made
[21:54:52] <alex4nder> they're nice for keeping things organized.
[21:55:00] <pfred1> what is that?
[21:56:21] <ReadError> he has a video of it
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[21:57:10] <pfred1> ah nice chip brushing
[21:57:44] <pfred1> ReadError when you machine you'll brush chips so much you won't even know that you're doing it
[21:59:15] <pfred1> that is what those wells are for on the sided of the table, to hold the chip brushes :)
[22:00:19] <pfred1> that and they should be drilled and tapped for fittings for your coolant run off hose
[22:00:29] <pfred1> though no machine maker does that
[22:02:11] <ReadError> last time, i just set the shopvac on a stool
[22:02:20] <ReadError> and sucked up the shavings
[22:03:21] <pfred1> heh when I worked in a machine shop we didn't have no shop vac
[22:03:30] <pfred1> you knocked it on the floor and shoveled it up
[22:04:20] <pfred1> we were union though and probably would have griped that we didn't want to operate two machines
[22:05:34] <pfred1> ReadError you know how to setup chip shields right?
[22:06:04] <pfred1> if you're going to be running flood coolant you'd better
[22:08:17] <ReadError> nah
[22:08:24] <ReadError> i havnt built a basin yet
[22:08:41] <pfred1> you don't need a basin what you need is some pieces of sheet metal
[22:08:54] <ReadError> well for the coolant setup i do ;0
[22:08:57] <pfred1> you prop them up in your table slots to contain the mess somewhat
[22:08:59] <ReadError> otherwise ill make a huge mess
[22:09:03] * Jymmm lol @ pfred1
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[22:09:29] <pfred1> you can trap over 90% of the spray
[22:09:37] <pfred1> if you setup chip shields right
[22:09:47] <Jymmm> pfred1: that was pretty good "...griped that we didn't want to operate two machines"
[22:09:48] <ReadError> yea but, i just have it sitting on table
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[22:10:08] <pfred1> well there is always some fallout from machine work
[22:10:23] <pfred1> but you can mostly contain it
[22:10:58] <pfred1> really we only ran flood cooling when we did production work for one off stuff we hand pumped with spray bottles
[22:11:45] <pfred1> though we mainly did do produciton work
[22:12:12] <pfred1> you should have seen our auto surface grinder with the 4 foot diameter wheel
[22:12:20] <pfred1> it was pretty awesome
[22:12:30] <ReadError> http://grabcad.com
[22:12:33] <ReadError> pretty neat site
[22:15:19] <pfred1> I ran a broach at that machine shop that oil flood cooled I had to shovel thips out of the 2,000 gallon reservoir
[22:15:35] <pfred1> s/thips/chips/g;
[22:15:48] <pfred1> it was a big broach
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[22:17:20] <pfred1> that thing was like the Niagra Falls of oil when it ran
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[22:55:45] <andypugh> Jymmm: You can buy cam followers.
[22:56:35] <andypugh> http://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/cam_follower_choice.php
[22:57:00] <andypugh> A cam could be as easy as boring an offset hole in a round bar.
[22:57:24] <andypugh> Though that probably isn;t the optimum profile.
[22:58:07] <Loetmichel> sooo, 3 done, 35 to go... enough for today, its an hour past midnight over here... -> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=13194
[23:00:05] <alex4nder> hah
[23:06:23] <Loetmichel> 25 to go
[23:06:41] <andypugh> I thought you were stopping?
[23:06:43] <ReadError> what you making?
[23:07:01] <Loetmichel> 25 to go, not 35... typo
[23:07:33] <Loetmichel> ReadError: 28 Trophys for a convention of multicopter-pilots
[23:08:35] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=13188
[23:08:48] <Loetmichel> the base is made from slate ;-)
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[23:12:38] <ReadError> uavforge ?
[23:13:30] <ReadError> http://p.twimg.com/Asp_uB2CIAIolD2.jpg:large
[23:13:35] <ReadError> for my quad ;)
[23:13:47] <ReadError> http://p.twimg.com/Asp82RnCMAIVEAe.jpg:large
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[23:38:34] <Jymmm> gene__: Instead of straight razor blades, I was even thinking of using a 45mm (or larger if I can find them cheap enough) rotary cutter blade, like much used in cutting fabric for sewing/crafts.
[23:38:50] <ReadError> i want a drag knife
[23:38:56] <ReadError> to cut some vinyl
[23:39:30] <Jymmm> I thought Pfred made his own drag knife and a cinyl cutter too from an old plotter
[23:39:42] <Jymmm> It could have been someoen else, I dont recall
[23:40:41] <Jymmm> ok, little gear on motor, big gear on leadscrews == ___________ ?
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[23:41:14] <Jymmm> (belt driven)
[23:41:30] <Jymmm> torque?
[23:41:53] <Jymmm> or speed?
[23:45:31] <ReadError> i was just thinking a thrust bearing
[23:45:46] <ReadError> with an exacto attachment
[23:45:56] <ReadError> so it could spin around easy
[23:47:30] <alex_joni> Jymmm: torque
[23:47:36] <Loetmichel> ReadError: a drag knife can be easily made out of a broken TC Mill bit, 2 1/8" ball bearings, a magnet, and a diamond grinder.
[23:48:21] <Loetmichel> the knife edge should only be trailing about 0,2 to 0,5mm so the 1/8" shaft is more than enough to form the edge
[23:50:20] <Loetmichel> nowi will go to bed, ist late ;)
[23:51:16] <ReadError> magnet ??
[23:52:16] <Loetmichel> to hold the cutter bit up in the bearings
[23:52:55] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=9030 <- yes, tungsten carbide bits ARE magnetic
[23:53:23] <Loetmichel> grind the upper end of the TC bit to a tip or better to a ball
[23:53:33] <Loetmichel> so it has less drag for rotation
[23:53:33] <ReadError> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=3191
[23:53:37] <ReadError> and there was a murder!
[23:53:45] <Loetmichel> ReadError: thats a WALL
[23:53:52] <Loetmichel> ... with half the plaster gone
[23:55:14] <Loetmichel> had to put 4 sack (40kg) of plster on the walls as i moved in here