#linuxcnc | Logs for 2012-05-09

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[00:08:44] <Jymmm> PET FOOD RECALL http://shine.yahoo.com/pets/pet-food-recalled-after-salmonella-outbreak.html
[00:09:20] <Tom_itx> heard about that today
[00:11:36] <JT-Shop> I wondered why I was feeling ill today
[00:13:03] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: I thought we told you to limit your diet to top ramen?
[00:13:41] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: no for chew bones for you!
[00:13:48] <Jymmm> s/for/more/
[00:17:31] <JT-Shop> dang I fell asleep and forgot
[00:18:00] <Jymmm> you forgot you fell asleep or you fell asleep to forget?
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[00:22:14] <JT-Shop> I can't remember
[00:22:54] <Jymmm> Then just go to sleep
[00:23:12] <JT-Shop> I'm busy drinking and making cannon parts
[00:23:39] <djdelorie> CWI - cannoning while intoxicated
[00:23:43] <Jymmm> I guess that's better than cannoning and making drink parts
[00:23:51] <JT-Shop> LOL
[00:24:17] <JT-Shop> djdelorie: did you see the vid?
[00:24:21] <tjb1> Evening all.
[00:24:51] <JT-Shop> lovely evening at that
[00:25:01] <djdelorie> probably not. Which one?
[00:25:14] * JT-Shop wonders why the speeelll checker is borked
[00:25:17] <Jymmm> only 1730 here, so not evening yet
[00:25:17] <JT-Shop> the cannon vid
[00:25:28] <JT-Shop> from Sunday
[00:25:38] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: the 130MB one?
[00:25:50] <JT-Shop> http://gnipsel.com/cannon/cannon.xhtml
[00:26:39] <JT-Shop> oh crap I don't have a photo for #12... someone will complain for sure
[00:27:26] <djdelorie> your plasma gallery is missing most of the photos...
[00:28:16] <tjb1> I thought that was my computer...
[00:28:18] <JT-Shop> yea, they are still on photobucket
[00:28:29] <djdelorie> are you the one in orange?
[00:28:46] <JT-Shop> lighting the cannon? no, that is a friend
[00:29:14] <JT-Shop> http://s47.photobucket.com/albums/f163/johnplctech/Plasma%20Cutter/
[00:29:21] <Jymmm> djdelorie: JT-Shop is the ugly one
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[00:29:34] <JT-Shop> yea, camera shy...
[00:29:40] <Jymmm> heh
[00:29:52] <djdelorie> I've seen that plasma gallery, it's the other one that's missing photos
[00:30:10] <JT-Shop> yea, not had time to copy them over
[00:31:18] <tjb1> Someone should find my hdd and speed the delivery up
[00:31:38] <Jymmm> tjb1: I'm working on it
[00:31:53] <JT-Shop> who is this ugly guy http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f163/johnplctech/HPIM1988-1-1.jpg
[00:31:54] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: you do know the video is 130MB ?
[00:32:08] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: you
[00:32:29] <JT-Shop> yea, I've not had time to edit it... got any thoughts on what to edit a .mov file with
[00:32:38] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: You are one ugly son of a bitch =)
[00:32:44] <JT-Shop> lol
[00:32:53] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: I'm working on it, 6 more minutes
[00:33:14] <gene__> PID questions again. I have pid.0.FF0=1.0, and Pgain at .2, Igain,Dgain at0.0. Working fairly well but takes severaql seconds to accelerate the last 5% to the setpoint.
[00:33:36] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: but we still love ya!
[00:36:54] <gene__> with 301 at command in, the error output hovers around 295, should that not be close to zero?
[00:37:05] * JT-Shop wanders inside to see about chow
[00:37:21] <Jymmm> hang on JT-Shop
[00:37:34] <djdelorie> gene__: the Igain is what fixes up "off-by" errors
[00:37:47] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: jthornton hang on
[00:38:01] <djdelorie> and that pretty much exhausts my knowledge of PID ;-)
[00:38:05] <gene__> Ok thanks, brb
[00:39:32] <djdelorie> assuming P is set right, that is...
[00:41:44] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: jthornton Here is a link you can give out to show the video http://v6.tinypic.com/player.swf?file=2zhk1h0
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[00:42:52] <gene__> Igain at .2, and it slowly takes off to max rpm w/o ever reducing the error. Pgain is .2 atm, needs to go up?
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[00:43:43] <djdelorie> in general, you set P as high as you can *without* causing overshoot or oscillation, before setting I or D
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[00:46:43] <Valen> the rule of thumb is to raise p till it oscilates (test at many speeds and all over the length of travel)
[00:46:49] <Valen> then back off by 20-30%
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[00:47:31] <Valen> then add FF1 till the cruise has a minimum ferror (ie it should hover around 0)
[00:48:03] <Valen> then add some I to null out creeping ferror
[00:48:26] <Valen> (stuff like the screw being out, so you get a sine wave in your ferror in time with the screw)
[00:48:55] <Valen> then add the teensyest drop of D to smooth out the overshoot from the I
[00:49:15] <Valen> look at perhaps a little FF2 to minimise ferror during accelerations
[00:49:50] <tjb1> what would I read to understand what is being talked about?
[00:49:51] <Valen> for reference my metric mm machine has a P of 8, an I of 80 and a D of .05
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[00:50:19] <alangarf> @tjbl wikipedia on PID.
[00:50:19] <Valen> generic pid tuning stuff
[00:50:26] <Valen> it only applies for servo machines though
[00:50:28] <djdelorie> Valen: then a pinch of salt for taste...
[00:51:04] <tjb1> Does not apply to me then
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[00:51:37] <djdelorie> it gets worse. For position servos, you often have multiple nested pid loops that have to be independently tuned
[00:53:02] <tjb1> Played with 3 channel encoders in electronics class…that was enough fun for me
[00:53:17] <tjb1> And we only hooked up 1 channel
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[00:56:32] <gene__> Pgain at 5.8 is stable, but 2 clicks to wide open rpms, so I assume FF0 needs to go back down by a similar scale?
[00:56:49] <djdelorie> FF0 should be zero during P setting
[00:57:13] <djdelorie> or is that FF1? I get them confused...
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[00:59:18] <gene__> Humm, FF0=0.1 Pgain=10 and its two steps to wide open
[00:59:48] <gene__> remember, this is velocity, not position
[00:59:56] <djdelorie> spindle?
[01:01:11] <gene__> yes, first step up from creep at on is to 17 rps!
[01:01:55] * djdelorie doesn't have spindles, so doesn't know
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[01:04:46] <gene__> Pgain=20 FF0=0, its just multiplying the 101 input to 2020, wide open, where do I scale that down?
[01:05:18] <r00t4rd3d> gene__, do you have a pic of your machine ?
[01:08:33] <gene__> Not recent, its a 7x12, stock spindle controler with a C41 interface. And I just found the spindle speed override can turn it back down, at 6 RPS, its damned stiff, quick and still stable.
[01:12:14] <gene__> I'll see if I can get a pic of it on my page by tomorrow night
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[01:33:36] <alex4nder> hey
[01:41:00] <Jymmm> alex4nder: WHAT!
[01:42:21] * Tom_itx puts a muzzle on Jymmm
[01:43:09] * Jymmm slaps the shit out of Tom_itx with a HF mill!
[01:43:44] <djdelorie> Children! Behave!
[01:43:50] * Tom_itx thanks Jymmm for the mill
[01:44:00] * Jymmm flings poo at djdelorie
[01:44:10] <djdelorie> Monkeys! Behave!
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[01:44:29] <r00t4rd3d> whats the difference between a mill and a router?
[01:44:55] <Tom_itx> durability?
[01:44:56] <Jymmm> r00t4rd3d: a outer usually does wood, mill usually does metal
[01:45:19] <djdelorie> the right question is, what's the difference between a spindle and a router
[01:45:26] <r00t4rd3d> ok
[01:45:28] <Tom_itx> a mill mfg's paper or flour
[01:45:33] <Tom_itx> etc
[01:45:34] <Jymmm> djdelorie: 12HP
[01:45:44] <Tom_itx> a router is what you use to connect to the interweb
[01:45:46] <Jymmm> djdelorie: and 15K RPM
[01:45:52] <djdelorie> spindles are designed for continuous use and higher side loads than routers
[01:46:40] <alex4nder> hmmm
[01:46:42] <Jymmm> and greasyer
[01:46:55] <Jymmm> =)
[01:48:42] <djdelorie> a router is also typically designed to be hand-held, where a spindle is almost always used mounted in a machine
[01:52:32] <tjb1> Jymmm: Does my design look like it could also support a router?
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[03:06:55] <jdhNC> ITYM: hey nondem, ywmf
[03:07:04] <jdhNC> <urk>
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[03:34:03] <jdhNC> I am not a dumbass, but I'm not voting for him either.
[03:34:11] <jdhNC> twice!
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[05:33:01] <Connor_CNC> Hey guys, is there a canned routine to do a surface facing ?
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[05:36:56] <toastydeath> Connor: there is no standardized facing routine.
[05:37:33] <toastydeath> unless you count "a flycutter" as a standarized facing routine, obv
[05:38:01] <Connor> No fly cutter.. just 3/4" End Mill for now..
[05:38:04] <Connor> not ideal..
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[05:38:26] <toastydeath> flycutters is cheap
[05:38:46] <toastydeath> also a lot more accurate w/ better surface finish and tool life
[05:38:50] <Connor> Don't have one ATM.
[05:39:05] <toastydeath> http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1231
[05:39:41] <toastydeath> also look into o-codes on emc
[05:39:57] <toastydeath> you could program your own facemilling routine if you are hard up for one
[05:41:04] <djdelorie> Connor: see if you have a 'face-*.py" example script in your nc_files
[05:41:43] <Connor> I didn't see anything like that..
[05:41:44] <djdelorie> if not, http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Simple_LinuxCNC_G-Code_Generators#Facing_Software
[05:42:33] <toastydeath> my question is, especially for emc, why is all this stuff scripts and programs instead of being programmed as macros
[05:42:48] <djdelorie> because g-code is a standard
[05:42:53] <toastydeath> considering emc the singlemost powerful g-code scripting language i've ever seen
[05:43:08] <djdelorie> when you hit the limits of that standard, you wrap it in something more powerful
[05:43:12] <toastydeath> g-code's a standard until you're in front of a machine
[05:43:25] <toastydeath> and emc has o-codes
[05:43:57] <djdelorie> and people use whatever scripting language they're most comfortable with, be it g-codes or python or perl or c
[05:43:58] <toastydeath> why generate code over and over again instead of just altering parameters to a command?
[05:44:32] <djdelorie> also, g-code doesn't have that convenient GUI for entering parameters
[05:44:40] <toastydeath> i guess this is that whole "if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" thing
[05:45:00] <djdelorie> it's more like "you have a whole box of tools, use the one most suited to the job"
[05:45:25] <toastydeath> no, i'm pretty much flat out saying doing it this way is objectively stupid
[05:45:37] <djdelorie> ok, where is the GUI in g-codes ?
[05:45:51] <toastydeath> where's the gui in python?
[05:46:00] <toastydeath> suddenly g-code needs a gui?
[05:46:11] <djdelorie> there *is* a gui in python already, that's where you get to fill in the parameters
[05:46:33] <toastydeath> right, which is stupid when you're trying to write commands for a machine tool - the code itself does NOT have a gui interface.
[05:46:52] <toastydeath> the gui is what you've programmed.
[05:46:54] <djdelorie> to do the same in g-code, you have to make a copy of the macro's file, edit it to have the right parameters, then run it. Easier to wrap that g-code in a gui that sets the parameters for you
[05:47:00] <toastydeath> no, you do nto
[05:47:01] <toastydeath> *not
[05:47:19] <djdelorie> well, you have to enter the job-specific information *somewhere*
[05:47:32] <toastydeath> you can very simply and efficiently pass parameters to custom macros in g-code, and pretty much every control no matter how rudimentary since the 80s has had this ability
[05:47:38] <toastydeath> including emc
[05:48:08] <toastydeath> fanuc, for example, takes macros in the format "G65 H## X-- Y-- Z-- <W--, etc>"
[05:48:09] <djdelorie> more simply than filling in some blanks in a form and pressing "go" ?
[05:48:32] <toastydeath> lathes in every control except emc make liberal use of this for roughing cycles
[05:48:44] <toastydeath> g70-74
[05:48:55] <toastydeath> yes, far more simply
[05:49:10] <toastydeath> beacuse you are typing the command inline, and the machine evaluates the macro as the code executes on the tool
[05:49:20] <djdelorie> ok, that's a matter of opinion. If you've memorized the alphabet soup, run the macro and stop complaining
[05:49:25] <toastydeath> so as part revisions change, you can quickly and easily change the command.
[05:49:41] <toastydeath> without a bunch of useless copypasta
[05:50:33] <toastydeath> if by "memorized the alphabet soup," you mean learned to use the tool, then yes
[05:50:44] <djdelorie> you're talking about something different. Connor was asking for a canned facing routine. I pointed him at one. You're talking about scripting an entire job for repeatability
[05:50:58] <toastydeath> a canned facing routine is a actual term, in g-code, for something
[05:51:16] <djdelorie> By that same reasoning, you should learn to write Postscript if you want to use your laser printer, instead of using a word processor.
[05:51:20] <toastydeath> it does not mean any random script
[05:51:32] <toastydeath> fanuc, for example, has exactly that - a canned facing routine.
[05:51:44] <toastydeath> it's G163 or some such.
[05:52:42] <toastydeath> other more common examples of canned routines are peck drilling, tapping, and boring cycles.
[05:52:43] <djdelorie> I guess we'll have to wait for Connor_CNC to say what he really wanted, then.
[05:53:19] * Jymmm wants a beer and to see something naked!
[05:53:29] <djdelorie> so find a beer and take your clothes off
[05:53:49] <djdelorie> DO NOT POST PICTURES!
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[05:54:07] <Jymmm> djdelorie: video
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[05:55:04] <Jymmm> I have a 5" long 3/4" diameter tube with goo in it. Any thoughts on retail packaging of some sort?
[05:55:33] <toastydeath> ribbed blister pack?
[05:56:01] <Jymmm> clam shell?
[05:56:08] <toastydeath> wat
[05:56:25] <Jymmm> what is a ribbed blister pack
[05:57:25] <Jymmm> like pills come in?
[05:57:43] <Jymmm> or like a clam shell?
[05:58:07] <Jymmm> http://packagaesdesign.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Blister-Packaging-Design.jpg
[05:58:07] <toastydeath> it's just the vacuum formed plastic bullshit packages that are hard to open
[05:58:19] <toastydeath> that cut your shit up
[05:58:21] <toastydeath> yeah, those
[05:58:31] <Jymmm> clams shells
[05:58:36] <toastydeath> if you rib them rather than allowin them to be smooth, they're pretty crush resistant
[05:58:44] <toastydeath> *allowing
[05:58:46] <Jymmm> (that's what I call then)
[05:59:27] <Jymmm> Wow, that would be almost 4x the cost of the tube of goo
[05:59:49] <toastydeath> cardboard tubes?
[06:00:10] <Jymmm> PP tubes heat sealed, you have to cut open.
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[06:00:49] <Jymmm> One issue I'm having is the tube is too small of an area for all the copy I'd liek it to have.
[06:01:05] <Jymmm> PP can't be pad printed either.
[06:01:16] <djdelorie> clear heat shrink over printed cardboard?
[06:01:34] <Jymmm> djdelorie: oh, those vacuum sealed card things
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[06:09:42] <Jymmm> Ever go into an autoparts store and some parts would be haning on a piece of cardboard and some plastic vacuum formed on top of it? The back of the cardboard had a grid of tiny holes they used to vacuum seal it
[06:09:49] <Jymmm> hanging
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[06:50:26] <DJ9DJ> moin
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[07:09:45] <micges> hi
[07:31:46] <Jymmm> How do you draw an Equilateral Triangle so that it's 1) Centered on a certain point, and 2) of 12" sides?
[07:34:26] <archivist> draw a circle
[07:34:53] <Jymmm> of what radius?
[07:35:27] <archivist> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equilateral_triangle
[07:39:47] <Jymmm> R = (SQRT(3)/3) * a. What is 'a'?
[07:41:09] <archivist> something tells me someone has not tried any number at all in that equation
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[07:44:53] <alex_joni> "Assuming the lengths of the sides of the equilateral triangle are a, we can determine using the Pythagorean theorem that:"
[07:51:32] <Jymmm> so it should be 6.928203230275508" from the center to any point of the triangle?
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[07:52:08] <Jymmm> thank you
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[13:23:28] <joe9> when I use a sub, any error in the ngc code comes up with the line where the sub is called. Is there any way I can find out which specific line in the sub the error message refers to?
[13:36:22] <alex4nder> morning
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[14:28:55] <joe9> i could not find much in the linuxcnc gcode docs about climb or conventional mode milling. Is it an obsolete concept?
[14:29:04] <joe9> i read that climb mode is better in general.
[14:29:20] <joe9> and, I am trying to use G42 with climb mode (going clockwise)
[14:29:36] <cradek> climb milling is often better if your machine is tight enough to do it
[14:29:47] <cradek> it's not an obsolete concept at all, but it's not really a gcode matter
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[14:29:53] <joe9> yes, that is what I read in the boot.
[14:29:58] <joe9> s/boot/book/
[14:30:43] <cradek> g42 puts the tool on the right of the path, so if you're spinning the usual clockwise, that's not climb milling
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[14:33:37] <joe9> this is my gcode: http://codepad.org/zzagUg2o i am trying to make a rectangular slot.
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[14:34:10] <joe9> and, for milling away the center, I am using G42 on the outer edge.
[14:34:19] <joe9> and, going clockwise
[14:34:27] <cradek> yargh too complicated to read
[14:34:36] <joe9> ok, thanks.
[14:34:54] <cradek> if you're going clockwise on an inside slot, g42 is correct, but that's conventional milling
[14:35:00] <cradek> for climb, use g41, go ccw
[14:35:08] <cradek> assuming your tool spins the usual clockwise
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[14:35:42] <cradek> is that your question? maybe I'm not sure what you're asking
[14:37:48] <joe9> cradek, let me check the cutter blade direction. yes, you are answering the correct question. i need to figure out why g42 + clockwise is conventional and not climb.
[14:38:39] <Jymmm> Is there tooling that is 1mm diameter that could put a slot in 1/8" aluminum ?
[14:39:10] <cradek> not easily. maybe a laser?
[14:39:42] <cradek> saw blade can do that easily
[14:40:31] <cradek> I guess that's only 3.x diameters, so maybe you could do it with carbide with extreme care
[14:40:57] <tjb1> g42 and counter clockwise is climb
[14:41:07] <Jymmm> I'm not sure if it's 1 or like 1.3mm actually. Maybe I need to rethink this a bot.
[14:41:13] <Jymmm> bit
[14:42:42] <Jymmm> cradek: thanks!
[14:43:41] <cradek> tjb1: pretty sure it's not
[14:43:58] <tjb1> sorry g41
[14:44:52] <tjb1> if g42 is on right side of path and clockwise that is going against the rotation of cutter
[14:45:35] <tjb1> You would have to cut on left side and go counter clockwise to get climb
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[14:55:37] <joe9> tjb1: i checked the cutter blades and I see that clockwise movement is climb.
[14:56:04] <joe9> whether G41 or G42 seems irrelevant to determine whether it is climb or conventional.
[14:56:15] <tjb1> so the cutter is rotating counter clockwise?
[14:56:25] <joe9> the direction of the cutter movement and the rotation of the cutter determines that. Doesn't it?
[14:56:43] <joe9> the cutter rotates clockwise
[14:56:49] <tjb1> You are doing an inside contour right
[14:57:34] <joe9> tjb1: don't worry. I think I figured it out.
[14:58:48] <cradek> if your tool runs clockwise, g41 is always climb. g42 is always conventional.
[14:59:02] <cradek> runs=spins
[14:59:12] <cradek> i.e. m3 mode
[14:59:26] <cradek> if you're in m4 they will swap of course
[15:10:21] <tjb1> HDD is arriving today, get to set up Linuxcnc on dedicated comp now
[15:10:35] <joe9> cradek: tjb1: when doing face milling, I am going in concentric circles from outside of the slot to the inside of the slot. I mean, make the slot and then keep moving inwards to remove the rest.
[15:11:03] <joe9> i am using the slot dimensions as G42 parameters and going clockwise.
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[15:11:18] <joe9> and, then increasing x1 to x1+1.5*tool_radius
[15:11:30] <joe9> and x2 to x2 - 1.5*tool_radius
[15:11:33] <tjb1> Inside pocket, g42 and clockwise is conventional
[15:12:08] <joe9> tjb1: that holds true, if you are going from inside to outside.
[15:12:20] <joe9> but, I am going from outside to inside.
[15:12:34] <joe9> first make the slot edges and then remove the surface in the middle.
[15:13:46] <joe9> when removing the surface in the middle, the actual cutter movement resembles G41.
[15:14:15] <tjb1> Why do you care about climb-conventional on material that is being removed?
[15:16:57] <tjb1> If your going for the surface finish you should climb mill the outside of the pocket
[15:17:18] <cradek> usually you'd go from inside out, so the last pass is light cleanup
[15:17:42] <cradek> climb milling is a matter of resulting finish only
[15:19:30] <JT-Shop> iirc it also has to do with friction and heat build up due to the nature of the chip or something like that
[15:20:09] <joe9> tjb1: i had read that with climb milling the "heat generated is absorbed by the chip and the hardening of the part is prevented"
[15:20:17] <joe9> cradek: thanks, that helps.
[15:20:37] <skunkworks> if your machine is not tight (backlash) climb milling may break mills.
[15:22:06] <joe9> cradek, i should be going from inside out and then everything you and tjb1 say makes sense. sorry for the bother.
[15:22:25] <cradek> no problem, glad we figured out what the communication breakdown was
[15:22:57] <tjb1> there are differences between the two so it depends what you want to climb mill for
[15:23:01] <cradek> often cutting inward on a slot doesn't work, because the center part will fall (or more often, fly) out
[15:23:30] <cradek> so you start in the middle to "convert it all to chips" which don't ruin anything when they fly out
[15:24:30] <joe9> cradek: thanks, that makes sense.
[15:24:59] <joe9> i tried using the o200 in useful-subroutines.ngc, but could not figure out why it needs all the tan and sin calculations.
[15:25:07] <Jymmm> no salsa? n
[15:25:18] <joe9> hence, thought of writing something on my own.
[15:26:23] <joe9> anyone used/using the o200 sub in useful-subroutines.ngc? did you have to make any changes to it?
[15:26:50] <cradek> it does that so the slot doesn't have to be oriented along an axis
[15:27:24] <cradek> try doing a slot from 1,1 to 3,2 without that trig and you will find out why :-)
[15:30:01] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: jthornton Where you be? I have your cannon video link for ya http://v6.tinypic.com/player.swf?file=2zhk1h0
[15:30:17] <JT-Shop> I'm here
[15:30:59] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: Resize your browser window to resize the video =)
[15:31:01] <joe9> cradek, got it. thanks.
[15:31:38] <JT-Shop> Jymmm: kinda grainy
[15:31:47] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: Resize your browser window to resize the video =)
[15:31:53] <JT-Shop> did that
[15:32:10] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: Well, it's not 130MB anymore =)
[15:32:49] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: resize it smaller, then less grainy =)
[15:34:13] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: I have no control over the compression ratio, sizing, etc.
[15:36:33] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: If you want to embed it in your web page... <embed width="440" height="420" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://v6.tinypic.com/player.swf?file=2zhk1h0&s=6">
[15:37:12] <archivist> joe9, iirc your machine is a lighter hobby type, climb milling may break cutters if your machine is not up to it
[15:39:34] <JT-Shop> ok Jymmm
[15:40:20] <JT-Shop> Jymmm: can you trim the false starts off the beginning?
[15:40:37] <Jymmm> lol
[15:41:16] <Jymmm> I can't do any type of editing. It's just upload and go sorta thing
[15:41:23] <JT-Shop> ok
[15:41:27] <JT-Shop> didn't know
[15:42:03] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: Yeah, np. I'ts not video program, just used TinyPics.com to serve the video is all.
[15:42:14] <Jymmm> err TinyPic.com
[15:42:35] <JT-Shop> ah ok
[15:42:54] <joe9> archivist: my machine is a taig. is that good enough for climb milling?
[15:43:01] <Jymmm> They USED to have photo editing thing too, but got rid of that as well sadly.
[15:43:06] <JT-Shop> I can convert it to another fomat that winblows can edit with the movie maker or something like that
[15:43:39] <archivist> joe9, you will find out :)
[15:53:48] <joe9> is there any place where I can find gcode for common purposes? other than the useful-subroutines.ngc. I am looking to cut a rectangular slot.
[15:54:11] <joe9> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Simple_LinuxCNC_G-Code_Generators found this.
[15:57:58] <JT-Shop> my favorite page
[15:58:37] <JT-Shop> doesn't ngcgui mill have a bunch of those?
[15:59:05] <joe9> JT-Shop: have you used face.py or pocket.py?
[15:59:53] <JT-Shop> no, none of my mills have linuxcnc yet
[16:00:47] <syyl> thing of beauty ;)
[16:00:48] <syyl> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/24396704/2012-05-09_17-57-45_612.jpg
[16:01:33] <joe9> what is ngcgui? I tried it and it asks me for Preamble, Subfile..
[16:02:01] <joe9> http://emc.mah.priv.at/docs/remap/src/gui/ngcgui.txt found this.
[16:03:01] <roycroft> a milling machine needs to be very rigid and have zero backlash for climb milling to work safely
[16:04:02] <JT-Shop> syyl: nice
[16:04:27] <syyl> its to modify my lathes tailstock..
[16:04:28] <syyl> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/24396704/reitstock3.png
[16:04:29] <syyl> :D
[16:04:44] <JT-Shop> joe9: http://linuxcnc.org/index.php/english/component/kunena/?func=showcat&catid=40
[16:08:19] <roycroft> excellent
[16:08:31] <roycroft> the replacement touchscreen controller board is out for delivery
[16:08:46] <roycroft> it's a day late
[16:08:54] <roycroft> but that's ok, as long as it arrives today
[16:09:14] <joe9> JT-Shop thanks, that is helpful.
[16:10:14] <tjb1> What routers are commonly used on diy tables?
[16:11:31] <JT-Shop> joe9: your welcome
[16:12:49] <djdelorie> tjb1: mine uses a PC960 motor, sans everything else: http://www.delorie.com/photos/cnc/img_2537.html
[16:13:48] <tjb1> Is that just a fixed router with the base taken off?
[16:13:53] <djdelorie> yes
[16:14:30] <djdelorie> my other spindle is an air-powered die grinder: http://www.delorie.com/photos/cnc/img_2604.html
[16:15:51] <tjb1> Alright thanks
[16:16:04] <tjb1> May just pick up a HF router and throw it in
[16:16:27] <djdelorie> the PC960 is convenient because it's round and easy to mount :-)
[16:17:16] <tjb1> Gotta get the plasma cutter working first and before that I gotta build the table
[16:19:16] <tjb1> djdelorie: I like your pencil weight
[16:19:23] <djdelorie> good for testing :-)
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[16:19:38] <roycroft> djdelorie: where do you get your motor gears?
[16:19:48] <djdelorie> a box of spares a friend brought over
[16:19:58] <djdelorie> all the mechanicals are surplus
[16:20:03] <roycroft> that's a good place to get them
[16:20:08] <roycroft> unfortunately, not available to me
[16:20:29] <djdelorie> they're fairly standard though
[16:21:13] <roycroft> yeah, i have sources
[16:21:20] <roycroft> but i'm always looking for bargains
[16:21:46] <tjb1> quite the patience to make a table out of wood
[16:21:51] <roycroft> sdp-si is probably the canonical source
[16:22:20] <djdelorie> nah, I've been woodworking for a long time, and have a full woodworking shop
[16:22:58] <tjb1> Whats going on here - http://www.delorie.com/photos/cnc/img_2555.html
[16:23:05] <tjb1> reflow?
[16:24:00] <alex4nder> hey
[16:24:18] <djdelorie> yes
[16:25:24] <tjb1> Very nice table
[16:25:44] <djdelorie> thanks!
[16:25:59] <djdelorie> it wobbles a bit though. I consider it a "learning" table
[16:27:06] <tjb1> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/plasma_edm_other_similar_machine/151355-4x4_aluminum_extrusion_hypertherm.html
[16:27:09] <tjb1> Thats mine so far
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[16:43:50] <JT-Shop> Jymmm: it is only 123 MB!
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[17:04:44] <tjb1> JT-Shop: Do you think 1/8" wall is enough for my table?
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[17:11:08] <JT-Shop> 11ga x ? x ?
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[17:12:01] <archivist> titanium...paper
[17:12:46] <JT-Shop> A36 I think
[17:12:57] <JT-Shop> but we might as well add lenght and load
[17:13:18] <JT-Shop> or just say yea, if you use enough of it
[17:13:26] <archivist> :)
[17:13:44] <archivist> enough layers
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[17:21:13] <tjb1> I upped it to 3/16" to be safe :)
[17:23:34] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: oh, my bad! hahahaha
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[17:30:36] <andypugh> I have just taken delivery of a package containing an 8i20 and 4 bottles of Latvian beer. I think some of you can probably guess who from.
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[17:35:41] <jthornton> was it packed in sheep wool for padding?
[17:36:33] <IchGuckLive> is pcw on holiday ?
[17:42:04] <tjb1> Hate it when the motorcycle doesn't start...
[17:42:15] <tjb1> Suzuki was nice enough to bury the battery
[17:43:44] <gene__> Andy - I just tried to setp encoder.0.min-velocity-estimate 0.5, and go a pin doesn't exist error. ??
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[17:45:08] <gene__> Do I need another addf something?
[17:48:43] <andypugh> No, not PCW.
[17:49:58] <andypugh> gene__: The pin looks like it out to exist. Give me a moment
[17:50:54] <gene__> Andy - ok
[17:52:04] <andypugh> Hmm, it isn't a parameter any more, and it has changed its name to min-speed-estimate !
[17:52:40] <andypugh> I am not sure if you really want to change it though.
[17:52:53] <andypugh> And it has no bearing on your threading problem.
[17:53:12] <gene__> What is the default?, oh?
[17:53:28] <Loetmichel> re @ home... btw: slate IS millable... the 6mm TC bit goes through like a hot knife through butter... but i look like a coal miner after leveling the few cm^2 surface...-> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=13173
[17:53:35] <Loetmichel> *cough* *spit*
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[17:56:49] <andypugh> gene__: The default is 1.
[17:57:05] <andypugh> (no, I have no idea what it is 1 of)
[17:59:24] <andypugh> gene__: To get your closed loop spindle to work, M3 S1000 and then adjust the FF0 (using setp in the show-machine-config window) until you get 1000rpm, with PID zeroed. Then increase the I until you get the stiffness you need.
[18:00:29] <andypugh> For threading, all you need is motion.spindle-revs and motion.index-enable correctly netted to the spindle encoder. motion doesn't even see the actual spindle velocity (or, for that matter, whatever estimate your encoder is producing)
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[18:08:29] <djdelorie> how accurately does linuxcnc tract actual spindle position on a lathe with just a single index pulse?
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[18:08:45] <mrsun> about 1 revolution ? :P
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[18:10:48] <gene__> Ok, I can try that, but I just found a cyclic variation in spindle speed even when the abs-speed is sent to pwmgen.0.value, about 1%. corresponds to timing belt noise for the most part.
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[18:11:23] <gene__> Send that above to the list, this doesn't print that easily.
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[18:13:21] <cradek> djdelorie: if the spindle is exactly constant speed, exactly
[18:13:40] <cradek> djdelorie: I think that's the only answer possible :-)
[18:13:47] <djdelorie> how "exactly" does a typical spindle run? How much does it matter when threading?
[18:14:53] <djdelorie> i mean, I imagine my ancient single-phase motor with belt drive isn't as good as a modern digitally controlled three-phase motor with gear drive... but does it matter?
[18:15:09] <cradek> it depends on the lathe, and how deep you are cutting, and what the material is, and how sharp your tool is, etc etc
[18:15:47] <djdelorie> "it depends" doesn't make it easy to learn this stuff :-)
[18:15:50] <cradek> I can't imagine why anyone would use index-only on a spindle if they want to cut threads
[18:16:23] <andypugh> cradek: I take it that includes not understanding why people use Mach?
[18:16:48] <andypugh> gene__: Why would you send abs speed to pwmgen.0.value?
[18:16:57] <cradek> well to be fair, people don't use mach to cut threads, they use mach to approximate cutting threads
[18:16:58] <andypugh> What the heck is in your HAL file?
[18:17:16] <djdelorie> so starting off with the assumption that some many-pulse-with-index is "better" is probably the way to go?
[18:17:42] <cradek> djdelorie: yes of course that's the unavoidable truth
[18:17:57] <jdhNC> single index is cheap and easy.
[18:18:05] <andypugh> You need to find how many ppr you can count at the spindle speed you care about.
[18:18:32] <andypugh> With a geared head, or a toothed-belt, you have a ready-made index wheel.
[18:18:38] <cradek> yes what resolution you want depends on your hardware
[18:18:56] <djdelorie> one would assume that, if you care that much about precision, you'd be buying a mesa card or something that can *handle* that kind of precision...
[18:19:16] <jdhNC> p-port is cheap and easy
[18:19:42] <djdelorie> p-port is not as fast as mesa, if you want high speed quadrature decoding or pulse following with PID
[18:19:58] <cradek> certainly true
[18:20:04] <jdhNC> I'm all for cheap and easy... 7i43 is pretty cheap.
[18:20:14] <djdelorie> although, it would work if you geared down the spindle to its slowest speed :-)
[18:20:47] <IchGuckLive> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rd4KejP1b48 yes Grid Foam G2 all works
[18:21:29] <IchGuckLive> in HD
[18:22:58] <IchGuckLive> part 1 tomorrow
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[18:26:53] <andypugh> You don't need collossal resolution for good threads. Even one pulse per rev would give perfect pitch consistency at the index mark. AFAIK, though, Mach doesn't even do that. I think it moves at constant speed once it has seen the index mark, regardless of further indices.
[18:27:31] <archivist> djdelorie, I have a 48 slot + index encoder running to a par port and that threads ok
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[18:27:53] <Connor> andypugh: Is their a way to get a virtual index from a encoder that doesn't have one?
[18:28:18] <andypugh> jdhNC: 7i43 and 5i25 are about the same price.
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[18:28:39] <archivist> Connor, best not to think that way
[18:28:52] <cradek> andypugh: my understanding is that mach mistakenly implements this as a velocity mode problem, meaning any errors just accumulate because they are never corrected
[18:28:56] <jdhNC> andypugh: yeah, but I bought the 7i43 before the 5i25 existed
[18:28:57] <Connor> I know, I'm working on a new encoder..
[18:28:59] <andypugh> Connor: Yes, but there is a danger it might "slip"
[18:30:18] <Connor> I've got one on the mill now waiting to be finished up.. I need to re-run a updated g-code file.. and then switch out to 1/8" bit so it can cut the slots.
[18:30:46] <tjb1> Anyone good with bios stuff?
[18:30:51] <Connor> First real part my machine will have made.. fully auto.. I made set of spanner wrenches with X and Y only, ran Z manually.. that was fun.
[18:31:06] <cradek> tjb1: just ask your real question
[18:31:21] <roycroft> what kind of mill do you have again, connor?
[18:31:28] <tjb1> well put a new hdd in and i can't get it to boot from cd
[18:31:29] <Connor> G0704
[18:32:04] <jdhNC> me Too!
[18:32:08] <archivist> tjb1, still not the real question...what is the real error
[18:32:18] <tjb1> I don't get any errors
[18:32:23] <tjb1> it just won't pick up the cd when booting
[18:32:35] <tjb1> strike f1 to retry boot, f2 for setup utility
[18:32:49] <roycroft> aah, that model wasn't out when i got my x3 clone
[18:33:00] <roycroft> when i saw it i thought it might be interesting
[18:34:03] <tjb1> never mind, i somehow forced it into the cd mode before it told me to retry boot
[18:34:05] <gene__> Andy, 2 things. One is I have a rod in the chuck, limits me to 600 revs, so s600, FF0=.95 gets me an eyeball average of 10 rps in halmeter. but the variation is +-2!
[18:34:06] <archivist> tjb1, is the cdrom and hard disk both on the same ide cable, do both think they are master
[18:34:30] <tjb1> They are on separate cables and everything is set on cable select
[18:35:18] <archivist> tjb1, and have you set your bios to boot from cd as well
[18:35:49] <tjb1> yes
[18:35:54] <tjb1> its loading xp now
[18:36:11] <jdhNC> connor: can your 7x fit 3/4" in the bore?
[18:36:40] <archivist> tjb1, your answers mean you dont have a problem
[18:36:59] <andypugh> gene__: What do you get in counter mode?
[18:37:36] <tjb1> archivist: Not anymore, it allowed me to select the drive
[18:37:43] <gene__> where is that checked/set
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[18:38:23] <andypugh> gene__: http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html/man/man9/encoder.9.html
[18:38:40] <gene__> Counter.mode is false
[18:40:03] <andypugh> gene__: Yes. And it probably should be, but if you get better velocity estimates with it true then it might indicate a problem with your quadrature phasing.
[18:40:09] <Connor> jdhNC: Not on mine. The 3 jaw chuck has too small bore. The lathe itself can.
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[18:40:43] <gene__> everyone has seen the pix on that, its great
[18:40:43] <andypugh> However, it probably doesn't matter all that much anyway. put a lowpass between the velocity and the visual display, and ignore it.
[18:41:15] <gene__> I have, doesn't help, even with lowpass.0.gain .01
[18:41:41] <andypugh> Doesn't help how?
[18:41:52] <andypugh> What doesn't it help?
[18:42:05] <gene__> halmeter readings do not stabilize
[18:43:18] <tjb1> My $5 computer work, awesome.
[18:43:24] <gene__> I missed your question, but it was to see if the speed was steady with pid out of the circuit, it was decent, 1% maybe
[18:43:51] <andypugh> .01 is a 0.1 second time constant. You might want to go lower than that.
[18:44:04] <gene__> I missed your question, but it was to see if the speed was steady with pid out of the circuit, it was decent, 1% maybe
[18:44:24] <gene__> to .001?
[18:44:51] <andypugh> As a first step, maybe.
[18:44:55] <Connor> What is this for, to keep RPM from bouncing all over the place ?
[18:45:48] <andypugh> But I would only run the display through that, let the PID see the raw speed, (as your PID is mainly FF0 the measured value isn't that important)
[18:46:39] <gene__> rpms don't bounce, displayed reading does.
[18:47:08] <andypugh> So filter the displayed reading.
[18:47:20] <Connor> Huh? You mean it goes from say 2025 to 2003 to 2032 and such..
[18:47:23] <gene__> and Igain 0.0001 runs the speed up, pretty fast
[18:48:00] <Connor> Mine tends to bounce around a bit...
[18:48:06] <gene__> No, I'm saying the one reading is 7.867, and the next is 13.951
[18:48:09] <andypugh> That Igain and your FF0 will probably be about right.
[18:48:51] <gene__> in whatever speed the screen update it, FF0 is .95
[18:49:12] <andypugh> I wish there was a way to check the number of edges seen between each index, as a check that the encoder was working.
[18:49:49] <gene__> Igain 0.0001 raises the spindle speed to around 750 swag
[18:49:52] <cradek> the software encoder module could sure do that
[18:50:34] <andypugh> gene__: In conjunction with the FF), or all by itself?
[18:50:36] <gene__> So do I, but I'm watching it on the scope, looks reasonable good even when time quantized by halscope
[18:51:28] <gene__> With the FF0=0.95 Igain 0=about 600, raise the igain to .0001 and it jumps to 750 or so.
[18:51:38] <archivist> cradek, and if the count is off could error, I know I can over speed the spindle and it is currently not noticed
[18:51:41] <andypugh> And are you saying that the Igain raises the speed a long way above the setpoint?
[18:52:06] <gene__> yes
[18:52:22] <cradek> archivist: it could have a pin that says the number of errors
[18:52:35] <cradek> it could also sense quadrature error (both signals changing together)
[18:53:05] <cradek> gene__: are your command and feedback units the same? you're not comparing rps with rpm are you?
[18:53:13] <archivist> cradek, mine is a A only so just does not notice a missed pulse
[18:53:27] <andypugh> gene__: What does -0.0001 do?
[18:53:36] <cradek> archivist: sure then no, but in general you could sense different kinds of errors
[18:54:08] <gene__> 480 revs, swag
[18:54:25] <Connor> swag ?
[18:54:38] <gene__> Scientific wild assed guess
[18:54:44] <andypugh> What does the pid.0.error pin say?
[18:55:56] <mrsun> anyone familiar with astrosyn 34pm-c042 steppers? :)
[18:56:00] <andypugh> also pid.0.output and pid.0.maxoutput
[18:56:24] <andypugh> mrsun: steppersa re steppers..
[18:56:36] <gene__> pid error, with igain back at 0, jumpy but in the area of 588, +- 10 maybe
[18:56:37] <mrsun> andypugh, yeah but i want to know holding torque etc =)
[18:56:42] <mrsun> cant find specs for it
[18:56:47] <Connor> gene__: Is this for a spindle? What speed controller do you have? I had to turn the acceleration on the speed controller ALL the way up.. so my PID wouldn't oscillate and so that it would get to full speed.
[18:57:42] <gene__> new board in lathe, calibrated according the thier instructs, works well by itself.
[18:57:53] <gene__> yes, lathe spindle
[18:58:14] <cradek> gene__: are your command and feedback units the same? you're not comparing rps with rpm are you?
[18:58:35] <gene__> encoder is a 3 slot optical, with a 39 slot+index slot on the spindle rear nose
[18:59:21] <gene__> Good Q. The units I see for the feedback appear to be scaled to rps
[18:59:54] <cradek> ok how about the commanded?
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[19:00:13] <cradek> I ask because a consistent error of 600 means something's wildly wrong
[19:00:40] <gene__> That scale could be turned down, or the encoder.0.velocity could be sent, lemme check the hal file
[19:00:42] <cradek> playing with tuning is not going to work if you have wrong behavior if pid succeeds at making the error small
[19:02:36] <gene__> Yes, encoder.0.velocity is to pid.0.feedback. encoder.0.scale is 156, 39 slots * 4
[19:02:52] <cradek> ok what about command?
[19:03:11] <cradek> sounds like this definitely gives you rps
[19:03:22] <cradek> if your command is in rpm you're stuffed
[19:03:26] <gene__> pwmgen scale 1100, expected rpms max
[19:03:56] <andypugh> mrsun: You might be able to guess from here: http://www.eminebea.com/en/product/rotary/steppingmotor/pm/standard/
[19:04:29] <gene__> it seems to be rps at the feedback,Chris
[19:05:32] <cradek> dude
[19:05:40] <cradek> what are the units of the pid command?
[19:05:51] <andypugh> motion.spindle-speed-out is rpms
[19:06:13] <cradek> is that what you're using? are you scaling it before pid?
[19:06:13] <gene__> So I need to scale the velocity up by 60 for the feedback?
[19:06:22] <andypugh> Yes.
[19:06:32] <cradek> nah, scale the rpm one down
[19:06:36] <gene__> That will take a min
[19:06:47] <cradek> motion.spindle-speed-out-rps OUT float
[19:06:47] <cradek> Desired spindle speed in rotations per second
[19:06:56] <andypugh> Or, alternatively, get used to M6 S10 meaning "600 rpm"
[19:07:02] <cradek> or use this one
[19:07:26] <andypugh> Aha! somebody spotted this previously then
[19:07:41] <andypugh> gene__:
[19:07:42] <gene__> which goes in 1,101,201,301.401, etc to 1101 increments too coarse a setting IMO
[19:07:54] <gene__> listening
[19:08:06] <andypugh> motion-spindle-speed-out-rps
[19:08:29] <gene__> yes
[19:09:48] <andypugh> S1 gives me 0.016667 on that pin
[19:10:12] <gene__> less than my offset
[19:10:17] <andypugh> I don't see where your 1, 101, 201 is coming from
[19:10:39] <jdhNC> the + button in axis
[19:10:44] <gene__> that is the increment in commanded speed when the +- button are tapped.
[19:11:03] <andypugh> Ah, who uses that? Constant surface speed mode all the way with a lathe
[19:11:26] <gene__> I haven't takled that, yet...
[19:11:30] <andypugh> (you could have buttons marked "steel", "aluminium:", "brass" even :-)
[19:11:39] <Connor> can someone take a look at my files and tell me why when I send a M3 S2000 I ended up with it setting it to something like 2501 or so.. ?
[19:11:40] <Connor> http://www.ivdc.com/cnc/conversion/hal/
[19:12:06] <cradek> what do you mean "it setting it to"? where do you see the 2501 number?
[19:12:23] <gene__> Kewl Andy, but lets fix this first?
[19:12:41] <Connor> In the GUI for the target speed.
[19:12:47] <cradek> Connor: your urls are busted
[19:12:49] <andypugh> Connor: Link doesn't work, clicking the files gives me a homepage
[19:12:54] <Connor> let me fix something on server so the .hal files show up.
[19:13:48] <cradek> IMO the only time to be out of css is when drilling or tapping
[19:14:07] <andypugh> gene__: I thought it was fixed? You just need to net speed-rps to the PID (and use a much smaller FF0 to sit)
[19:15:32] <andypugh> Actually, you might want a bigger FF0.
[19:16:22] <andypugh> Be aware that it is perfectly OK for the _output_ of the PID to be in rpm, as long as both inputs are in the same units.
[19:17:00] <andypugh> So, if the PID scale is set to the max spindle RPM, then yout FF0 is going to be close to 60 for an rps-input
[19:19:11] <Connor> okay. look now.. renamed them with .txt extensions.
[19:19:35] <cradek> pid works to minimize the error, which is calculated by difference between command and feedback. you must scale everything so an error of zero gives the behavior you want.
[19:19:56] <cradek> that is why you couldn't tune it
[19:20:36] <andypugh> And your PID was trying to make 10 == 600, and not managing.
[19:22:21] <gene__> I just tried to setup a scale of 60 along with abs, and I'm getting a startup error that does not exist
[19:22:46] <andypugh> It would really help to tell us what doesn't exist
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[19:23:04] <andypugh> And I am not entirely sure why you need the abs
[19:24:20] <cradek> seems like abs will give you positive command in m4 mode, but you'll have negative feedback, which won't work
[19:24:33] <gene__> I see it, same signal to two names. The abs is because all speeds are forward, a realy will do the reversing so spindle-command and encoder.velocity need to be in the positive realm
[19:24:57] <cradek> won't feedback velocity be negative?
[19:25:06] <cradek> it will if you've got quadrature
[19:26:29] <gene__> thats why it gets the abs treatment too
[19:26:53] <cradek> ...
[19:27:09] <andypugh> M4 gives a negative command, and with a negative feedback from the spindle, it will all just work...
[19:27:53] <gene__> ahh, right Andy, lemme fix that
[19:28:43] <andypugh> pwmgen is happy with negtive input.
[19:28:58] <andypugh> (IIRC)
[19:30:15] <andypugh> Yes, negative input to pwmgen gives non-zero duty cycle, and sets the "dir" bit to control your relay.
[19:31:22] <joe9> i have a toolpath for making a rectangular slot. I want to get some opinion on whether I am doing it correct (as per machinist practices). the backplot tells me that it does what it is supposed to.http://codepad.org/forGIOVR
[19:31:27] <andypugh> It's almost like this got thought out.
[19:32:11] <joe9> i am using G42 and counter-clockwise direction (climb milling).
[19:32:32] <gene__> I wasn't aware of that, but what happens if the relay doesn't switch because its not there? Then a reverse command is answered with a forward feedback :)
[19:32:46] <archivist> joe9, best not to use climb milling as a noob
[19:33:19] <gene__> So let me get my head around this:
[19:34:35] <andypugh> gene__: Then you run-away to peak revs. You can temporarily get round that by setting dc-min to zero
[19:34:55] <joe9> archivist: would you be able to load the gcode and see if you like the backplot?
[19:35:17] <joe9> wondering if there are any blunders that a machinist would notice in the backplot.
[19:35:19] <gene__> set pwmgen to rps numbers for scale, say 18.333 rps max, ok to the min-dc = 0.00
[19:35:35] <archivist> joe9, I dont have a machine powered up at the moment
[19:35:42] <joe9> ok, thanks.
[19:36:35] <gene__> then feedback, already scaled to rps if I could get rid of the noise would be correct?
[19:36:41] <andypugh> Connor: Your HAL has all the things wrong with it we have been discussing here. You can drop the scale and the sum2. Use the spindle-speed-rps output as the PID command, use the encoder rps-output as the feedback, and use FF0 to give the steady-state command. You then probably mainly want some I-gain in the PID to correct the error.
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[19:37:36] <andypugh> gene__: Even with the noise it is probably going to be fine, with FFO and small I
[19:37:49] <andypugh> A bit of dither into a PID can actually help.
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[19:38:02] <Connor> andypugh: That's why I put my config up there.. I knew I wasn't doing it right even though it kinda worked.
[19:38:02] <gene__> I believe thats enabled
[19:39:05] <gene__> So I may as well go where I can sit down and re-invent this wheel.
[19:39:10] <gene__> BBL
[19:39:14] <andypugh> Connor: Don't let it worry you, my machine is set up even worse than yours, as I did it years ago and haven't bothered correcting it.
[19:39:54] <Connor> I found this config somewhere on the net.. ugg..
[19:40:19] <Connor> okay, you said loose the scale and sum2
[19:40:37] <Connor> the setp pwmgen.0.scale 3000 ?
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[19:41:28] <andypugh> pwmgen scale is rather arbitrary. I tend to use 1.
[19:42:05] <andypugh> But you can choose rpm or rps or % or volts if you want.
[19:42:24] <Connor> Would prefer RPM's. :)
[19:43:28] <andypugh> Stick with that then
[19:45:13] <andypugh> If 100% pwm gives you 3000rpm, then use a FF0 of 60 in the PID, and zero P I and D, and see how it works. It should be close-ish.
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[19:48:24] <andypugh> Connor: Was it here? http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Closed_Loop_Spindle_Speed_Control
[19:49:05] <andypugh> That probably needs re-writing to take account of what we are discussing.,
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[19:52:34] <Connor> andypugh: Yea.. That looks like it.
[19:53:15] <Connor> Yup, that's it.. It's got the sum2 in it..
[19:54:24] <Connor> okay, that is FF0 ?
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[19:56:00] <Connor> andypugh: Yea, I can adjust the RPM on the motor controller to match 100% PWM.
[19:56:50] <Connor> I was using the PID stuff to account for lower speeds and inaccurate speed curve from the PWM -> analog conversion
[19:57:51] <andypugh> FF0 does almost exactlty the same thing as the sum2, but inside the PID. It adds command * FF0 to the output.
[19:59:18] <Connor> I need to add softstart too since I turned the Acceleration on the controller all the way up so that the PID had faster response time..
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[20:00:36] <gene__> apparently thwe pid.0.min-dc pin has been renamed?
[20:01:04] <andypugh> Connor: Probably best done with a limit between motion.spindle and pid-command
[20:01:33] <andypugh> limit2, to be precise: http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html/man/man9/limit2.9.html]
[20:01:51] <andypugh> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html/man/man9/limit2.9.html without the spurious character
[20:02:41] <Connor> I'll have way more tweaking after I get my new encoder disk cut out and get it installed.. It'll be A B Z
[20:03:22] <gene__> actually, not pid.min-dc but pwmgen.min-dc, duh
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[20:07:18] <gene__> Humm, motion.spindle-speed-rps starts at .0166, next step is 1.66, .0166 is stopped, 1.66 is wide open
[20:07:34] <andypugh> Ah, you don't want to be paying attention to the _details_ of what I say :-)
[20:08:00] <andypugh> What's your FF0 at the moment?
[20:08:14] <andypugh> And what do you see on pid.output?
[20:09:00] <gene__> Sorry Andy, to many things at once.
[20:09:20] <gene__> 0.95 IIRC but lemme check
[20:09:46] <gene__> yes, 0.95
[20:09:57] <andypugh> And pwmgen max scale?
[20:10:43] <andypugh> (or scale, whatever that pin is really called)
[20:10:46] <gene__> pid.out=9.5, pwmgen.scale is 19
[20:11:01] <andypugh> And that is giving full speed?
[20:11:35] <gene__> and its current turning about 500 rpm for a s10 command
[20:11:41] <mrsun> http://blog.cnccookbook.com/2012/05/07/shopmade-cnc-press-brake/ niiice =)
[20:11:42] <andypugh> feedback, Igain, Pgain?
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[20:12:25] <gene__> feedback bounce all over the 300-600 range
[20:12:59] <gene__> I-Pgains 0.00
[20:13:51] <cradek> if you take out all this pid stuff and command various steady speeds, does it control well at all?
[20:13:52] <andypugh> feedback 300, command 1.66?
[20:13:56] <gene__> spindle feels pretty stiff
[20:14:28] <andypugh> I thought you said that feedback was in rps!
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[20:16:16] <gene__> oh oh, I scaled it up I think, let me get rid of that, but just on the .95 FF0, speed is good but only starts at 2, needs more offset
[20:16:37] <andypugh> <wanders off muttering to wartch TV>
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[20:20:31] <gene__> Humm, no feedback, this hal stuff is hard
[20:24:08] <gene__> Got that, now feedback is hovering around 0.00 +- up to 1.something
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[20:24:49] <gene__> and I believe that s10m3 is close to 600 rpm, or 10 rps
[20:26:05] <andypugh> S needs to be in rpm still
[20:26:55] <gene__> Ok, where do I scale that? pwmgen.scale?
[20:27:52] <andypugh> No
[20:28:13] <andypugh> spindle-speed-rps is spindle-speed / 60
[20:28:28] <andypugh> spindle-speed == S. spindle-speed-rps == S / 60
[20:28:31] <JT-Shop> TV must be broken
[20:30:24] <andypugh> So, you don't need to do mental arithmetic in the MDI, if you want 600rpm, then M3 S600
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[20:31:23] <gene__> at the settings now, s600 would be 600 rps, the building would need repairs :)
[20:31:56] <andypugh> No. Really not.
[20:32:14] <andypugh> Unless you have been ignoring nearly everything I have been saying.
[20:32:16] <gene__> only because it can't go that fast Andy
[20:32:56] <gene__> However feedback is actually hovering around 0!
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[20:34:36] <gene__> Is this where I bring in some Igain?
[20:35:30] <DJ9DJ> gn8
[20:35:40] <andypugh> What is spindle-speed-rps with S10?
[20:36:45] <gene__> 10 in, and around 10 out, plus the noise of course
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[20:37:24] <andypugh> So, you haven't actually linked spindle-speed-rps, you are still using spindle-speed?
[20:38:06] <gene__> lemme check
[20:39:49] <gene__> net spindle-cmd motion.spindle-speed-out abs.0.in
[20:40:32] <gene__> net spindle-abs-speed abs.0.out pid.0.command
[20:40:44] <andypugh> So, you haven't changed to rps, you haven't removed the abs, have you actually made any changesa t all?
[20:41:01] <gene__> s10 = 10 all the way trhough
[20:41:14] <andypugh> Yes, but you don't want 10rpm?
[20:41:22] <gene__> lots of changes, getting rid of trash mainly
[20:41:57] <gene__> That would be nice
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[20:42:22] <gene__> I'll get rid of the abs in that path next
[20:44:58] <gene__> What do I set pwmgen.0.scale at for 1100 rpms max?
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[20:47:04] <gene__> I'll put it back to the 1100 I had there when all this started
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[20:48:14] <andypugh> 1100rpm is OK, if that it the max speed you want.
[20:48:35] <andypugh> You need feedback and command to be in the same units.
[20:49:11] <gene__> yes, now how do I scale the pid for an rpms input at command, and an prps input at feedback?
[20:50:02] <andypugh> You can't
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[20:50:06] <andypugh> It isn't possible.
[20:50:26] <andypugh> But you said your feedback was 600?
[20:53:53] <gene__> I just scaled the feedback up to rpms, command is 600, spindle is about 600 feedback is 500-700, error is floating around 0.00 +- 100
[20:54:32] <gene__> I think I need some Igain, I can make it sag a bit
[20:56:54] <gene__> Igain lowers the speed slightly but doesn't seem to stiffen it any
[20:57:22] <andypugh> Yes, now that is it set up consistently, add some I.
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[21:00:11] <gene__> Igain slows it some but the sag is still there, Pgain around 10 also slow it some, and stiffens it up, we are getting someplace now I believe
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[21:00:13] <andypugh> You could remove the scale function, but then you wouldn't have an RPM figure to display, so that might not be desirable.
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[21:01:13] <gene__> I set s100 from s600, it dropped, acted like it wanted to oscillate but stabilized
[21:01:30] <gene__> and looks close to 1 rps
[21:03:31] <gene__> some I gain, about .1 makes it very stiff at 1 rps
[21:03:35] <andypugh> Positive, I assume?
[21:03:41] <gene__> Yes
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[21:04:42] <andypugh> Can you see the pid output increasing?
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[21:06:03] <gene__> I think I'll carve this into the hal. I note that an s600m4 is stopped by the min-dc setting for the time being, good
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[21:07:38] <gene__> pid.output has some noise but generally is 555
[21:08:05] <gene__> shoul;d I take the FF0 back to 1.0?
[21:09:03] <gene__> Humm, no effect, still 555 most of the time
[21:09:35] <andypugh> I would drop the FF0 a touch so that the PID increases it, just to avoid overspeed.
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[21:11:21] <gene__> 0.5 drops the speed about 20%, set back to .9
[21:12:17] <gene__> This is working well I think, thanks Andy.
[21:13:35] <gene__> Got any ideas how to smooth up the z motion when threading? Theres a definite cyclic pattern to the cut threads
[21:15:27] <gene__> And a hint of q at 29.5 is too much, but lets not putz with this till I reduce the tools flat nose, it needs to be about 1/2 what it is now. Thanks again Andy
[21:16:38] <skunkworks> gene__: how may ppr is your encoder?
[21:19:07] <gene__> 39 slots, 156 ppr
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[21:20:49] <gene__> I need to go away and sharpen the threading tool, this is the mills machine
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[21:21:18] <Keknom> hello
[21:21:43] <Tom_itx> any solidworks experts in?
[21:22:09] * Tom_itx looks at JT-Shop
[21:25:34] <andypugh> If it's oscialllting, then a little bit if D (may need to be negative) might help. But a very small number.
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[21:25:46] <JT-Shop> yep
[21:27:18] <Keknom> JT, DO you know how to do an extrusion on an imported 3d model?
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[21:29:32] <JT-Shop> Keknom: you can't do that on an imported model
[21:29:50] <JT-Shop> what file format did you import?
[21:30:01] <Keknom> oh, that would explain why I was having issues doing it then , and IGES/STEP
[21:30:07] <Keknom> trying to add in a feature it failed to import
[21:30:38] <andypugh> You lose all the modelling data on anything imported with almost any software
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[21:31:22] <JT-Shop> some file formats can be created into features then you can modify them
[21:31:31] <andypugh> gene__: What is netted to motion.spindle-revs ?
[21:31:48] <Keknom> ah, guess I'll just remake the part in solidworks then
[21:34:10] <JT-Shop> I think it was pro e files that you could convert...
[21:34:57] <Keknom> These were made in ProE, but only have academic license of solidworks, thus it will only import IGES/STEp but not ProE files
[21:35:01] <Tom_itx> cannon shot was cool jt
[21:35:37] <Tom_itx> maybe someone here would import it for you
[21:36:22] <Keknom> Think I might be able to use a school license to import ProE (For some unknown reason school licenses can import diffirent file types than student licenses)
[21:37:22] <JT-Shop> I just checked a pro e and that was not the one that made features for me the other day
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[21:38:59] <tjb1> Is there any problem with using a wireless mouse/keyboard on the cnc controlling computer?
[21:39:21] <Keknom> I don't beleie so TjB1, CNC router I use has both
[21:39:51] <cradek> I wouldn't use a wireless device to control jogging, because it might fail at the wrong time
[21:39:55] <JT-Shop> have one on my CHNC and the MB is inside the machine!
[21:40:16] <cradek> but there's no other problem than that
[21:40:25] <alex4nder> tjb1: I use a Playstation 3 controller to control my mill,but I use it wired on purpose because if the machine ever misses a key release, bad things could happen.
[21:40:34] <alex4nder> USB HID is flakey enough as it is
[21:40:36] <JT-Shop> I use my MPG to jog most of the time
[21:40:40] <tjb1> Alright
[21:41:00] <tjb1> I have a wired xbox controller but I don't think the plugin I found works on linuxcnc
[21:41:23] <andypugh> hal_input is quite likely to work
[21:41:29] * JT-Shop goes to the cannoneer meeting
[21:42:26] <tjb1> Guess its time to learn this hal stuff
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[21:44:50] <Keknom> Anyone have experince using TechnoCNC routers with linuxCNC?
[21:48:28] <tjb1> Wow, my table is going to use $630 in steel and another $400 in extrusions
[21:49:24] <tjb1> May be dropping to .125 wall instead of 3/16
[21:50:03] <andypugh> I wonder if there is an advantage in filling the frame with concrete?
[21:50:20] <andypugh> Keknom: No, but I am sure it can be done.
[21:51:49] <tjb1> Im really finding out how bad shipping is...
[21:52:00] <tjb1> For $150 in gear rack, they want $200 shipping
[21:53:00] <alex4nder> tjb1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gODZJ_gBBA
[21:53:13] <andypugh> Keknom: However, why not use the controller that the router is shipped with? I doubt that it is particularly inferior to EMC2.
[21:53:55] <Keknom> Curiosity how it would work/ issue that computer it is on is unupdated windows XP machine with service pack 2
[21:54:29] <tjb1> Is that using bluetooth?
[21:54:43] <alex4nder> this is using wired USB
[21:54:48] <andypugh> Do the step-dir pulses go through the parport, or a custom interface?
[21:54:50] <alex4nder> but BT works, I just don't trust BT
[21:55:32] <Keknom> custom interface
[21:55:55] <andypugh> alex4nder: I have the back-buttons set up to control speed range. Top fast, bottom medium, both super-slow. That way you have to press a button and move a joystick to jog, which saves trouble.
[21:56:30] <andypugh> Keknom: That might be the sticking point. You would have to write a driver, or replace the interface.
[21:56:36] <tjb1> Oh I didn't watch enough of the video to see the cord
[21:56:56] <tjb1> Using .125 wall I save about $150 on the steel
[21:56:58] <Keknom> ah, shall stick with winfail then, writing a driver is a tad beyond me lol
[21:56:59] <alex4nder> andypugh: that sounds cool, I think I'm going to do some combination of that.. but use the PS3 'power' button to act as joystick enable.
[21:57:20] <alex4nder> and just have speed based on proportion
[21:57:24] <alex4nder> up to like 60 IPM
[21:57:43] <andypugh> Keknom: It can be surprisingly easy to write a driver for a memory-mapped card.
[21:57:43] <tjb1> PS3 triggers are just on/off aren't they?
[21:57:51] <alex4nder> no, they're all analog
[21:57:58] <tjb1> The triggers?
[21:58:10] <alex4nder> but there's a boolean mirror of every button as well
[21:58:20] <alex4nder> I use the right joystick as my X11 mouse.
[21:58:34] <alex4nder> tjb1: every button is pressure sensitive.
[21:59:04] <andypugh> alex4nder: I still have analog control, it is just the speed rangwe which changes. It's all just like documented in http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Simple_Remote_Pendant
[21:59:13] <tjb1> Anyone capable of doing material testing in solid works? :)
[21:59:25] <alex4nder> andypugh: I understand
[21:59:29] <alex4nder> I'm just going to do it differently.
[21:59:30] <andypugh> FEA you mean?
[21:59:52] <alex4nder> so to use the analog stick, you have to press the power button with your right hand
[21:59:56] <andypugh> I have FEA in Inventor, but that is no help, I guess
[22:00:28] <tjb1> I have no idea, I drew most of it at school but no way to test it
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[22:01:52] <r00t4rd3d> finally all the part to finish my build
[22:02:40] <tjb1> I would hate to start on xp sp0 and have to do all the updates...
[22:03:28] <r00t4rd3d> you would get the latest sp and be done quickly
[22:04:06] -!- FinboySlick [FinboySlick!~shark@squal.net] has joined #linuxcnc
[22:04:17] <tjb1> Im on sp3 and have 150 updates
[22:05:11] <r00t4rd3d> it would probably be the same if you were on sp0
[22:05:41] <Keknom> tjb1 I've done some stress analysis before in solidworks
[22:05:59] <r00t4rd3d> i hate waiting for the SP to install, thats killer
[22:06:10] <r00t4rd3d> it has gotten better the last couple
[22:06:21] <tjb1> I hate having to download 130 security updates
[22:06:22] <Keknom> my school is clever and just blocks window update's site as freeware
[22:06:43] <tjb1> Keknom, would you like to do a test on my table? :)
[22:07:04] <Keknom> I could attempt to, I'm not the best solidworks user but could give it a try
[22:08:42] <andypugh> tjb1: You can get "slipstreamed" XP with SP3 included. I don't know how, because I have never cared.
[22:09:53] <tjb1> I'm almost done, doesn't matter
[22:10:13] <r00t4rd3d> you can make a cd with the latest sp and all the latest updates and have them auto install on a fresh install
[22:11:02] <tjb1> The problem is downloading them
[22:11:07] <tjb1> Im tethered through my phone
[22:11:11] <r00t4rd3d> lol
[22:11:18] <r00t4rd3d> capped?
[22:11:43] <r00t4rd3d> verizon wireless so probably
[22:11:58] <tjb1> I'm on unlimited :)
[22:12:07] <r00t4rd3d> truly unlimited
[22:12:17] <tjb1> who knows
[22:12:25] <tjb1> its so slow..i don't know if they throttle me
[22:12:36] <r00t4rd3d> just the metod
[22:12:38] <r00t4rd3d> method
[22:13:00] <tjb1> Keknom, I'm trying to upload it to dropbox
[22:13:24] <tjb1> I have a crazy setup here, iPhone sharing wifi to macbook pro which is hooked by ethernet to desktop sharing internet
[22:13:40] <r00t4rd3d> anyone use Origin and want a 70% off code?
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[22:16:39] <tjb1> Should be ordering this beauty this weekend http://www.harrisweldingsupplies.com/lincoln-precision-tig-225-tig-welder-ready-pak.aspx
[22:17:14] <r00t4rd3d> you know how to use that ?
[22:17:19] <tjb1> Nope
[22:17:23] <r00t4rd3d> sweet
[22:17:37] <tjb1> dad wanted to get a tig welder
[22:17:49] <tjb1> Cant be that hard…the welding kids at my school can do it
[22:18:00] <r00t4rd3d> learning curve
[22:18:13] <tjb1> They aren't the brightest bulbs on the tree…you might call them the one that burns out and takes the rest down with them
[22:18:27] <r00t4rd3d> more so when you get an advanced piece like a Lincoln.
[22:18:48] <r00t4rd3d> any retard can wire fed weld
[22:19:00] <r00t4rd3d> Im an expert
[22:19:03] <r00t4rd3d> :)
[22:19:20] <tjb1> we have a lincoln 175 mig
[22:19:24] <tjb1> Keknom: https://www.dropbox.com/s/d9ttmrlnlnhm67o/Table%20Assembly.SLDASM
[22:19:31] <tjb1> Not sure if that will work
[22:20:01] <tjb1> Whats the gas for big?
[22:20:03] <tjb1> *tig
[22:20:16] <tjb1> 75 argon, 25 co2?
[22:20:16] <andypugh> Argon, generally
[22:20:32] <r00t4rd3d> matters how hot you want it
[22:20:41] <andypugh> You only use CO2 mix for MIG, AFAIK
[22:20:50] <tjb1> Is there a gas you can use to weld both steel and alum with the big?
[22:20:58] <Keknom> tjb1 forgot to send some of the linked files
[22:20:59] <tjb1> Damn spellcheck, tig
[22:21:12] <andypugh> Yes, pure argon is fine for Ali and steel (and Ti)
[22:21:14] <tjb1> You need all the parts?
[22:21:41] <r00t4rd3d> ive never tried welding aluminum
[22:21:43] <Keknom> probably, with the assembly file it just included the mates, but nothing else
[22:22:01] <Keknom> r00t4rd3d from what I've seen and heard aluminum wields don't work to well
[22:22:39] <tjb1> About a minute Keknom
[22:22:50] <r00t4rd3d> they work great if you do it right and have the right welder
[22:23:20] <r00t4rd3d> you ever fly in a plane?
[22:23:22] <Keknom> oh didn't know that, only ones I've really seen were last minute ones done at battlebots competitions with MIG wielders
[22:23:38] <r00t4rd3d> you cant weld alum properly with a mig
[22:23:48] <tjb1> dump trailers
[22:23:53] <tjb1> most are all aluminum
[22:23:58] <tjb1> and flatbeds
[22:24:26] <Keknom> that would explain why quality of wields I saw were crap then...
[22:24:32] <r00t4rd3d> ya
[22:25:20] <r00t4rd3d> i have a shitty little mig and it would bitch slap me if I tried to touch aluminum with it.
[22:25:47] <tjb1> Keknom: https://www.dropbox.com/s/t2xmh0jjpoxuo6c/Table%20Parts.zip
[22:26:04] <andypugh> My motorcycle frame is held together with aluminium welds, several feet of them. They work.
[22:26:06] <Keknom> lol, worst I've ever seen was someone who attempted to wield grade 5 titanium with a mig wielder
[22:26:31] <tjb1> I know for mig aluminum it requires 100% argon
[22:26:36] <tjb1> and verrrrrry clean
[22:26:51] <r00t4rd3d> i got the rest of my router parts today but im too tired to go work on my setup
[22:26:52] <andypugh> Ti is difficult with TIG, it welds beautifully, then cracks. You have to shield both sides of the weld.
[22:27:23] <r00t4rd3d> my welder dont even take gas
[22:27:39] <r00t4rd3d> very high quality
[22:27:53] <tjb1> Have you ever mig welded with gas?
[22:27:58] <r00t4rd3d> yup
[22:28:05] <r00t4rd3d> stick weld too w gas
[22:28:07] <tjb1> quite a difference isn't there
[22:28:10] <r00t4rd3d> yeah
[22:28:35] <andypugh> my Robotwars robot had a wierd aluminium motor pulley (top hat shaped, so the belt ran round the middle of the motor) which I MIG welded using CO2 mix. It never failed.
[22:28:55] <Keknom> andypugh what weight class was yours?
[22:29:01] <andypugh> Heavyweight
[22:29:23] <Keknom> nice, I just do 15lb, 12lb, 1 lb, and 3lb..., aka sad little ones
[22:30:04] <andypugh> 100kg: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CvT0tLQB1I
[22:32:10] <Keknom> Is the blue one years?
[22:32:13] <Keknom> yours*
[22:32:22] <andypugh> No, we were SMIDSY
[22:32:49] <Keknom> like how smidsy is fairly compact compared to the other
[22:33:23] <Keknom> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXahYHWGbOk&feature=player_embedded Purple one in the video is my team's
[22:33:46] <tjb1> which one are you andy?
[22:33:48] <Keknom> we had 3 other robots at the same competition but they didn't fair as well....
[22:34:00] <tjb1> Keknom: did that open for you now?
[22:34:24] <Keknom> it had some slight errors due to it claiming a few imported part swere not present
[22:34:28] <Keknom> but for the most part its there
[22:35:51] <andypugh> The purple one is cool, and well driven.
[22:36:09] <Keknom> thanks, I wasn't the driver for that match though..
[22:36:40] <Keknom> did do all the CNC machining for the frame though
[22:36:57] <andypugh> CNC was hardly available when we did ours.
[22:37:47] <andypugh> I am not sure when it was? 12 years ago?
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[22:38:08] <Keknom> there were CNCs then, one I used for that one is 10 years old
[22:38:28] <andypugh> I think all the teams could do far better machines now, party because of the arrival of Arduino etc
[22:38:53] <andypugh> Oh, CNC existed, but ordinary folk dodn't get access, or build their own.
[22:39:33] <Keknom> must have been a lot of fun making the frame without a CNC then.... , our robot this year couldn't of even been made without a wire EDM
[22:39:59] <andypugh> spot-welded folded stainless.
[22:40:52] <tjb1> Damn that purple thing...
[22:41:21] <tjb1> Is that the matador?
[22:41:41] <Keknom> we also had 3 other robots at that competition although , one failed to have it's weapon spin up, one had the frame bent up , and the other had it's grade 5 titanium armor bent and cracked
[22:41:49] <Keknom> and the purple one is Still N' Shock 2
[22:42:46] <andypugh> The transmission was 3-speed bicycle hubs welded to the frame with kart wheels welded to the sprockets in a portal-axle type arrangement.
[22:43:44] <andypugh> So the internal transmission was relatively lightly loaded. It worked well, the robot is still fighting. (but we sold it on years ago)
[22:44:10] <Keknom> Didn't know there was a market for used battlebots lol
[22:44:18] <Keknom> also frame of our SNS2 https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/s720x720/540541_330670580326072_100001493995017_925616_2052398619_n.jpg
[22:45:26] <tjb1> Is that a lawn mower blade on the front of still n shock?
[22:45:48] <andypugh> http://robotwars.wikia.com/wiki/S.M.I.D.S.Y.
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[22:46:24] <andypugh> Ah, you see, what you have there is Engineering. We had lashed-together-scrap
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[22:48:02] <Keknom> no, the blade on SNS2 is a solid piece of s7 that was machined on a wire edm
[22:48:35] <Keknom> https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/306628_330670860326044_100001493995017_925626_1518866460_n.jpg
[22:49:14] <tjb1> That thing is pretty bad
[22:49:25] <tjb1> Where do you go to school?
[22:49:42] <Keknom> Plum borough senior highschool
[22:50:35] <Keknom> machining on the wire EDM was done by a sponsor
[22:53:52] <gene__> Andy, just saw youir question "net encoder.turns-motion encoder.0.position encoder.spindle-revs"
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[22:55:59] <andypugh> encoder.0.position-interpolated may be a little smoother
[22:56:47] <gene__> I'll give that a shot
[23:00:41] <joe9> is there a better way to get the tool radius of a tool: #5400 = #<tool>
[23:00:41] <joe9> #<tool_radius> = [#5410/2]
[23:00:56] <joe9> i cannot do that as the #5400 is read-only.
[23:02:10] <andypugh> Do you want to get, or set?
[23:02:53] <joe9> i want to get. andypugh
[23:03:23] <joe9> the tool is loaded with G20 L10
[23:04:03] <alex4nder> joe9: how are those PCB engravers going?
[23:04:07] <alex4nder> you milled any board yet?
[23:04:11] <joe9> I want to get the tool radius of the tool. the G20 is: G20 G10 L1 P1 Z0 R0.0625
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[23:06:14] <gene__> Z is now running rougher but the roughness is higher frequency rather than spindle related wowowo's
[23:06:43] <andypugh> joe9: I thought there might be a predefined #<_xxxxx> parameter for tool radius, but I am not seeing it: http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/gcode/overview.html#_predefined_named_parameters_a_id_sec_predefined_named_parameters_a
[23:07:17] <joe9> the #5410 is the tool diameter of the currently loaded tool. but, I am not able to figure out how to load the tool.
[23:07:31] <joe9> other than having to use G42 or G41
[23:07:41] <andypugh> "load the tool"?
[23:07:59] <jdhNC> T
[23:08:02] <joe9> such as "T1 M6". is there a different mechanism to load the tool?
[23:08:12] <andypugh> G43?
[23:09:19] <joe9> andypugh: exactly what I need. thanks.
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[23:12:12] <joe9> http://codepad.org/2YRwg0Og andypugh, this gives me an error saying that the "length of cutter compensation is not greater than the tool radius"
[23:12:20] <joe9> whereas, #<tool_radius> = [0.0625]
[23:12:22] <joe9> works
[23:12:30] <joe9> G20 G10 L1 P1 Z0 R0.0625
[23:12:38] <joe9> is what I had earlier in the code.
[23:12:47] <joe9> and #<tool> = 1
[23:13:45] <gene__> Andy: Z is now running rougher but the roughness is higher frequency rather than spindle related wowowo's
[23:14:31] <andypugh> Not directly relevant to the question, but T1 prepares tool 1, M6 triggers the tool-change macro, and G43 applies the offsets. If you don't give G43 a H number then it applies the offsets of the loaded tool.
[23:15:26] <andypugh> gene__: Are you anywhere near max axis speed? Alternatively, try a higher spindle speed.
[23:16:29] <andypugh> joe9: I can't say I understand that error message, is that exactly what it said?
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[23:17:11] <joe9> andypugh: http://codepad.org/fUqsJPPY works.
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[23:17:28] <joe9> but, without the T and M6, it gives me the above message.
[23:17:46] <joe9> i am under the impression that T.. and M6 are needed if you have a tool changer.
[23:17:55] <joe9> I do not have a tool changer. I do it manually.
[23:17:59] <andypugh> Me too.
[23:18:49] <andypugh> The error sounds a bit like the one you get when the move after the G40 is less than the cutter radius (too-short entry move)
[23:19:19] <andypugh> I do hope that the error looks at the G43 values, not the T values...
[23:20:05] <andypugh> However, I always use M6 Tn G43 reflexively, as the manual toolchange dialogue handily pauses the programme and gives you a prompt.
[23:20:53] <gene__> axis was about 7ipm, cranked spindle up, might have helped, but x backup is the limit I think
[23:21:30] <andypugh> How much run-up are you giving Z?
[23:21:57] <andypugh> I don't suppose your accel values are a bit conservative?
[23:22:04] <joe9> andypugh: if you are interested, this is the full code: http://codepad.org/rsv2ilzI
[23:22:25] <joe9> line 36-38 are the relevant ones to us.
[23:24:02] <andypugh> So, you are doing cutter-radius compensation in G-code?
[23:24:04] <gene__> about .2 for z, and maybe, x is in the 7 or 8 range, its z that has the weight, so about 3 is max
[23:24:36] <joe9> andypugh: no, I am not. I am just using the tool_radius to calculate the stepover.
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[23:24:52] <andypugh> Ah, OK.
[23:25:05] <gene__> x backout is over half a turn now
[23:25:27] <gene__> and this for a 28 tpi thread
[23:26:42] <andypugh> gene__: That's good compared to manual threading. You basically always end in a groove then.
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[23:28:20] <andypugh> joe9: You probably want to make that file a named sub in a same-name file, then you can call it from other G-code as a subroutine.
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[23:28:50] <gene__> Yeah, but this thread on the real piece needs to be tight enough to take a 15kpsi pulse for 2 milliseconds
[23:28:55] <joe9> andypugh: i will do that once I can get it to work.
[23:30:10] <gene__> nipple for a front loading BP rifle
[23:31:19] <joe9> cradek: any thoughts, please? I know the tool number. I am trying to get its' diameter or radius.
[23:31:39] <joe9> the #5410 global variable is available for the loaded tool.
[23:31:57] <joe9> i can use G42 with the tool. but, am not sure if there is a different way to load the tool.
[23:32:37] <joe9> cradek, i tried these different things to get the radius, but could not. http://codepad.org/3OJNPdWl
[23:33:06] <andypugh> joe9: The problem may be that the G1 X#<x1> move is too short compared to the tool radius. Also, I wouldn't bother with the D#<tool> part, that is assumed to match the current tool.
[23:34:12] <andypugh> gene__: I don't know what you are trying to do, but you probably need an end-groove for the thread.
[23:36:20] <andypugh> joe9: I think you are just confusing the issue with the D and H words. I am not sure why they are ever necessary
[23:36:56] <gene__> I have the OEM part in my hand, no end groove, withdraw is about 1/4 turn and about 1/2 the pitch from the shoulder.
[23:36:56] <joe9> andypugh: i just want the tool diameter of a tool. i think I need the D to specify which tool.
[23:37:29] <andypugh> If you leave it out, the currentlu loaded tool is assumed.
[23:38:15] <andypugh> #5410 ought to be updated as soon as G43 is issued.
[23:38:24] <gene__> X max-vel is 18 ipm
[23:38:49] <andypugh> (and the G43 will take the same H number as was used with T unless you specify otherwise)
[23:38:59] <gene__> Needs more, can give it more when couplings arrive.
[23:39:25] <andypugh> gene__: It's accelleration you need, not speed.
[23:40:04] <andypugh> gene__: They probably used a faster lathe for the OEM part.
[23:46:28] <gene__> They may have. I just raised the accels by about 2 each on the x, and managed to slip it a couple times, I think in the backlash move
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[23:47:01] <joe9> this code: http://codepad.org/EStQnyVn gives this message: http://codepad.org/sgXgUNEI
[23:47:50] <gene__> Its also down to 58F here and my T shirt says its time to hit the nice warm house for a bowl of soup, tomorrow is another day Thanks, a bunch.
[23:48:43] <joe9> G20 G10 L1 P1 Z0 R0.0625
[23:48:50] <joe9> i had that earlier in the program.
[23:49:52] <andypugh> Ah, I don't use backlash comp, so don't have any epxerience with it.
[23:52:50] <andypugh> joe9: I think you need a g43 after the G20. That sets the tool table, it doesn't apply it to the current tool.
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