#linuxcnc | Logs for 2012-03-02

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[01:31:31] <TSCDan> Hi! I currently have a RepRap Prusa Mendel that I want to use to mill some PCBs. I've already got the spindle design done, but I'm still working on the control mechanics. The reprap uses an Arduino Mega to control the steppers. Has anybody gotten EMC to play well with an Arduino-controlled mill? :-)
[01:47:40] <skunkworks__> TSCDan: probably not.
[01:48:00] <skunkworks__> Linuxcnc would be the motion controller. (not the arduino)
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[03:40:35] <mikegg> joe9: I had to step out for a bit. Did you get your drill press sorted out?
[03:43:20] <jdhnc> and if not, I'll sell you mine for $50
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[03:47:40] <mikegg> heh
[03:48:00] <mikegg> So I got some good news today. they are going to send me an envelope for my hair sample
[03:48:02] <mikegg> woot
[03:48:19] <mikegg> dodged that bullet
[03:48:55] <jdhnc> heh... that is absurd... what a waste of money.
[03:49:19] <jdhnc> guess signing off on someone elses hair would be an integrity violation.
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[03:50:26] <mikegg> well, i'
[03:50:37] <mikegg> ve always had a certain moral flexibility
[03:54:25] <Tom_itx> who takes hair samples for employment?
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[03:59:48] <mikegg> lots of folks, apparently. I think all the casinos in vegas do...
[04:12:58] <jdhnc> anyone heard of the SeeMeCNC 3d printer kits work with emc?
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[06:02:17] <mrled_> Anyone know what axisui hal pin toggles with the 'Override Limits' checkbox on the user interface?
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[07:22:56] <Loetmichel> mornin'
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[07:53:24] <DJ9DJ> moin
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[14:17:40] <JT-Shop> SWEET! the plasma is coming alive again... it homes!
[14:20:42] <awallin> home sweet home..
[14:21:40] <awallin> 12.04beta out. anyone using that? any good?
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[14:32:41] <skunkworks> JT-Shop: 5i25?
[14:41:16] <JT-Shop> skunkworks: yes
[14:41:30] <JT-Shop> just getting to the THC A-D card now
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[14:56:59] <mazafaka> End mill, d=40 mm, 4 inserts, 15 mm cutting depth, 400 rpm, 30-45 mm/min is OK?
[15:00:28] <JT-Shop> butter, brass, 4140, 7075 ?
[15:02:35] <jdhnc> yes, yes, maybe, maybe.
[15:02:46] <JT-Shop> lol
[15:05:48] <mazafaka> worked today, stainless steel
[15:05:59] <archivist> water,wood,titanium,concrete
[15:06:17] <mazafaka> cooolant
[15:06:21] <JT-Shop> yes, yes, maybe, no
[15:06:35] <mazafaka> if no then rather surely 'yes'
[15:07:11] <mazafaka> our Win 98 -based coordinate-drilling CNC kicks the ass!
[15:07:24] <mazafaka> ...in milling.
[15:07:43] <JT-Shop> anyone seen the little green plug for the THC A-D card?
[15:08:01] <archivist> swept under the carpet
[15:08:20] <JT-Shop> can't be there, no carpet
[15:11:09] <JT-Shop> I suspect I will have to clean and organize until it is found...
[15:11:57] <jdhnc> the best way to find lost parts is to buy a replacement.
[15:12:27] <Loetmichel> hihi, nothing more true than tat , jdhnc
[15:12:29] <Loetmichel> that
[15:13:27] <archivist> but then you end up with a pile a mile high of "it might be useful"
[15:13:46] <jdhnc> or two.
[15:13:47] <archivist> build another shed
[15:16:51] <jdhnc> that, I can agree with.
[15:18:05] <JT-Shop> ha, it was still attached to the cable from the plasma
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[15:32:16] <mazafaka> pretty nice explanation starting from 2nd minute at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Q2DA4_KdS8
[15:41:09] <mazafaka> I chew snickers to create a poo for the dog - young dogs sometimes eat various poo...
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[16:58:49] <JT-5i25> from the 7i77 TB3 to the THC A-D (+5VP to +5V) and (ENCA+ to FO+)?
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[17:08:19] <Loetmichel> re @ home
[17:08:24] <pcw_home> something like that (you can wire the THCAD differentially if you like and you have the wires)
[17:09:39] <pcw_home> in any case you need to jumper the encoder inputs to match the source (TTL or differential)
[17:09:41] <pcw_home> (and set the encoder mode to up/down in hal)
[17:10:29] <pcw_home> you may need to tie the B encoder line high or low to get the A-D reading in the right direction
[17:12:27] <Loetmichel> hmm, anyone here from Lietuva?... i have to go there in 18hrs. by car... from germany... 1000km to vilnius (700km ferry) and 1700km back...
[17:13:03] <Loetmichel> correction: i have to start driving 18 hrs from now, not go there IN 18hrs ;-)
[17:15:48] <JT-5i25> thanks Peter, I'll wire it up differentially
[17:18:25] <Jymmm> Is I2C fast enough for RTAI?
[17:18:46] <hatch789> hi peter, I'm working with Dave and having a hard time getting my resolvers to cooperate.
[17:19:19] <hatch789> The only number doing anything is velocity? And I have finished installing the resistor "bridges" on all of the X&Y sin/cos channels
[17:19:32] <hatch789> the voltage values are now between 0vAC and .824vAC
[17:19:38] <pcw_home> what is the velocity doing?
[17:19:40] <hatch789> so they seem very good and nice and smooth
[17:20:29] <hatch789> it's moving by itself (not much (just the decimas and the 1's column)) and then it does respond when I turn the hand wheel
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[17:20:52] <hatch789> but the angle, rawcounts, counts are all at 1 or -1
[17:21:00] <hatch789> and the position is still an exponential number
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[17:22:15] <pcw_home> strange maybe a 7I43 issue (this is the first use of the resolver interface in a 7i43)
[17:22:48] <pcw_home> sure you are using the latest bitfile?
[17:23:22] <hatch789> yup the one you just sent me
[17:23:57] <pcw_home> can you paste the md5 csum here?
[17:24:04] <hatch789> yes hold on
[17:25:21] <hatch789> 243a14cb485061ee342fcd077c74ce4d SVRM6.BIT
[17:25:45] <pcw_home> and this is from /lib/firmware/hm2/7i43?
[17:26:00] <hatch789> root@emc2-dell:/lib/firmware/hm2/7i43-4# pwd
[17:26:00] <hatch789> /lib/firmware/hm2/7i43-4
[17:26:41] <pcw_home> OK so maybe its a 7I43 issue or driver or something
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[17:34:08] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: There we have it... Imation Blu-Ray Blanks 25 for $19.99
[17:35:21] <hatch789> pcw_home, do you need/want me to send any other csum's or anything? I took today off of work to try to get this baby up and running and my hopes are fading fast now :(
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[17:36:31] <pcw_home> well if its a driver issue it may take a while as Andy P is in the middle of the ocean
[17:37:31] <hatch789> are there any tests that we can do to determine if it is or is not a driver issue?
[17:37:32] <Jymmm> with SpongeBob?
[17:41:30] <JT-Shop> Andy is sitting on the starting line
[17:42:03] <pcw_home> I will take a look at the 7I43 version today or Monday and see if I see anything strange at the register level
[17:42:05] <Jymmm> I thought he was on the third leg or something.
[17:42:05] <pcw_home> if not then its a driver issue
[17:42:19] <JT-Shop> 6th leg
[17:43:00] <pcw_home> JT-Shop does Axis have spindle RPM readout?
[17:44:30] <JT-Shop> there is motion.spindle-speed-out that any GUI can use
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[17:45:09] <pcw_home> OK thats what SRT is missing (in the forum)
[17:45:22] <JT-Shop> ouch tornado warnings all over the place
[17:45:48] <Jymmm> Branson is no more btw
[17:47:04] <JT-Shop> pcw_home: ok I see the post
[17:47:44] <pcw_home> Ok thats the motion command thats not what I wanted
[17:47:46] <pcw_home> maybe he does have to setup a PYVCP display
[17:49:53] <JT-Shop> yes, he would have to tie the meter to motion.spindle-speed-out
[17:55:25] <pcw_home> He's using the resolver velocity out to make a real spindle
[17:55:27] <pcw_home> speed readout, but what I dont know is whether Axis has a built in spindle speed readout
[17:55:29] <pcw_home> (and what axis.xxxxx pin it would be)
[17:58:50] <skunkworks> No - there is no readout.
[17:59:02] <skunkworks> You would need to make one in pyvcp or such
[17:59:55] <skunkworks> http://electronicsam.com/images/KandT/testing/Screenshot-HEADCIR.25mill.ngc%20-%20AXIS%202.5.0~pre%20on%20HM2-Servo-1.png
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[18:02:49] <cradek> skunkworks: we have multiturn arcs now!
[18:03:50] <skunkworks> cradek: is it in 2.5?
[18:04:02] <skunkworks> I remember you adding them...
[18:04:57] <cradek> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/2.5/html/gcode/gcode.html#sec:G2-G3-Arc
[18:05:07] <cradek> To program an arc that gives more than one full turn, ...
[18:05:26] <syyl> really?
[18:05:33] <syyl> thats a great function
[18:06:06] <skunkworks> cradek: Did you see I used coordinate rotation on the K&T? worked great@
[18:06:20] <cradek> slick! I've used it for ... one project!
[18:06:21] <MrSunshine> hmm, can linuxcnc send non realtime commands over like i2c and such ?
[18:06:22] <cradek> bbl
[18:06:28] <MrSunshine> im thinking setting spindle speed for example
[18:06:30] <MrSunshine> spindle on/off
[18:07:20] <pcw_home> MrSunshine sure
[18:07:58] <pcw_home> you could call a userland script
[18:07:59] <IchGuckLive> MrSunshine: yes
[18:09:02] <MrSunshine> ok it does not support sending i2c command directly ? :)
[18:09:18] <IchGuckLive> i do it via python
[18:10:04] <IchGuckLive> http://pyi2c.sourceforge.net/
[18:11:11] <MrSunshine> nice =)
[18:11:38] <IchGuckLive> there are sketches and examples there
[18:14:35] <IchGuckLive> to get it into hal you can use a µC as arduino for example there is a hal component for it
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[18:15:30] <IchGuckLive> then you got real scl/SDA on the µC
[18:16:03] <IchGuckLive> this also gives you 12 more IO
[18:16:32] <jdhnc> there was a project years ago to do i2c via a spare vga port
[18:17:38] <IchGuckLive> or if go go beond max 32768 port IO via PCF 8574
[18:18:11] <IchGuckLive> as i relised only 5000 in a scale train projekt
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[18:19:59] <IchGuckLive> is there a special eng for modeltrains worg
[18:20:10] <IchGuckLive> word
[18:23:10] <IchGuckLive> cradek: the code for helic circel down penetration will it be in one circle
[18:24:46] <IchGuckLive> for example circeling down from zeo to -5mm at 0.05 radius
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[18:37:12] <JT-5i25> pcw_home: 7i76 pdf page 2 slight extra word "When W4,W5,and W6 are in the right hand position, the encoder input _is_ mode is differential."
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[18:55:59] <pcw_home> JT-5i25 thanks I'll fix that
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[19:03:43] <Jymmm> pcw_home: just don't fix it like this... http://thereifixedit.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/white-trash-repairs-take-your-baby-back-ribs-to-new-heights.jpg
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[19:05:30] <ries> KimK: happen to be here?
[19:12:37] <JT-Shop> freeky 60kts winds with no clouds overhead
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[19:17:45] <Jymmm> So if you cannot see the wind, is it not there?
[19:19:26] <jdhnc> s/wind/beam/
[19:20:33] <Jymmm> Jim Beam?
[19:23:46] <pcw_home> Jymmm: nice balcony no wasted space
[19:24:00] <Jymmm> pcw_home: =)
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[19:42:01] <JT-5i25> pcw_home: is the encoder velocity supposed to be going backwards with 0v on the THC?
[19:43:16] <cncbasher> JT-5i245 : i'd guess you need a bandgap around zero
[19:43:35] <cncbasher> to stop it going negative at zero
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[19:44:19] <JT-5i25> it outputs a frequency at 0v but I forget if it is positive counts at the encoder or not
[19:45:47] <JT-5i25> I have FO- connected to ENCA- and FO+ connected to ENCA+
[19:47:14] <cncbasher> could be just slightly out , so a filter may do the trick
[19:47:27] <cncbasher> i.e zero is not exactly zero
[19:48:17] <cncbasher> so giving a band gap around zero might cure it
[19:48:19] <JT-5i25> I have a scale and offset in the THC comp to take care of that
[19:48:26] <cncbasher> ok
[19:48:56] <JT-5i25> I just thought the base frequency would make the encoder count up iirc
[19:50:03] <JT-5i25> but last time I had it connected ttl... hmmm
[19:50:10] <cncbasher> is the thc a balanced input
[19:50:28] <JT-5i25> I don't know what that means
[19:51:33] <Jymmm> THC
[19:52:51] <cncbasher> i bet it's just an imbalance around zero ,
[19:53:48] <cncbasher> is it varing a great deal , or just a few counts
[19:55:23] <JT-5i25> kinda steady at -119000 velocity
[19:56:06] <JT-5i25> I guess I'll have to find a battery and see if it is backwards
[19:56:14] <cncbasher> yea good idea
[19:56:40] <cncbasher> any floating grounds or ground loops maybe
[19:57:47] <cncbasher> would be enough to upset the frequency and cause it to shift from 0
[19:57:49] <Jymmm> grounded on only ONE end, but not both.
[19:57:51] <JT-5i25> the voltage input is not even connected to the THC A-D card
[19:58:17] <JT-5i25> the THC A-D card never outputs 0 frequency
[19:58:43] <cncbasher> i'd go more for the encoder input
[19:59:06] <JT-5i25> what do you mean?
[19:59:28] <cncbasher> not being a balanced input
[19:59:40] <cncbasher> i.e same voltage both sides
[19:59:55] <cncbasher> but one obvously the inverse
[20:01:19] <pcw_home> if its backwards you need to jumper the B input for TTL and ground it
[20:01:50] <JT-5i25> ok, thanks
[20:02:24] <pcw_home> its the dir pin when the encoder counter is in up/down mode
[20:02:29] <JT-5i25> B+ to ground?
[20:02:49] <pcw_home> Yeah I think bu jumper that one pin for TTL
[20:03:20] <cncbasher> more information overload to remember
[20:03:33] <pcw_home> just jumpering for TTL may be enough
[20:05:31] <JT-5i25> it doesn't say in the manual can I assume that W4 is A W5 is B and W6 is IDX
[20:05:40] <pcw_home> not sure what an unconnected differential input on a 7I76 encoder does
[20:05:58] <pcw_home> it the jumper closest to the pin pair
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[20:12:04] <JT-5i25> I changed W5 to TTL backwards still... going to ground ENCB+ now
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[20:15:40] <JT-5i25> ok, that worked and the velocity is much steadier now
[20:15:45] <JT-5i25> thanks again Peter
[20:18:04] <JT-5i25> cncbasher: I think you were trying to help me fix something that was not broken... yet, thanks for trying
[20:19:18] <JT-5i25> hmmm, too late for a nap and too early for a beer :/
[20:19:26] <pcw_home> I think if only the A pin is used (and the other pins used for GPIO) the B line gets grounded in the FPGA
[20:19:28] <pcw_home> and you will count down again, so the THC comp should be able to deal with this
[20:19:48] <pcw_home> (that is with a custom config that has no B pin)
[20:22:26] <JT-5i25> the THC comp only uses the velocity number with the offset and scale applied to velocity
[20:23:13] <pcw_home> well if offset an scale can be signed it shoul dbe possible
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[20:58:26] <CareBear\> archivist : so the 9 axis are one dimensional, right?
[20:59:35] <archivist> what do you mean by one dimensional, on the same machine working together
[21:00:43] <archivist> and many use servos not steppers
[21:02:14] <CareBear\> one dimensional as in each axis will always have a single set value?
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[21:03:18] <CareBear\> servos are nice since they compensate on their own, but I don't know about their feedback..
[21:04:27] <archivist> feed back comes back into linuxcnc
[21:05:05] <Loetmichel> not neccessarily
[21:05:29] <Loetmichel> uhu-servocontroolers for brushed servos are working like steppers
[21:05:48] <archivist> Loetmichel, only the rubbish stepper types
[21:05:57] <Loetmichel> step/dir inputs, servo motor outputs, encoder inputs
[21:06:20] <Loetmichel> i meant from linuxcncs point of view
[21:06:36] <archivist> but the encoder goes back to the linuxcnc and is therefore in the loop
[21:06:40] <Loetmichel> the controller has only step/dir input from the pc, and does the PID in itself
[21:06:50] <archivist> not all
[21:06:58] <Loetmichel> so the encoder goes to the uhu b oard
[21:07:09] <Loetmichel> iirc gecos are the same way
[21:07:11] <archivist> grr
[21:07:54] <Loetmichel> ?
[21:07:54] <CareBear\> so, since sync is important, I would build a controller with some ARM chip (I like and do workshops with LPC1343) and an FPGA
[21:08:30] <alex4nder> CareBear\: we meet again
[21:09:10] <CareBear\> the key being that over USB to the ARM, a slightly higher level protocol is used, which actually fits the application. ie. not sending a move command which starts movement, and then sending a stop command to stop movement, but sending a "move to $setvalue" command
[21:09:32] <Loetmichel> hmm, the uhu servocontroller works with a atmel tiny2313... and goes up to 50khz steps
[21:09:43] <CareBear\> alex4nder : yo
[21:09:45] <Loetmichel> ... maybe a fpga is a bit oversized?
[21:10:02] <CareBear\> Loetmichel : the requirement was for 9 synchronized axis
[21:10:10] <Loetmichel> oh, i see
[21:10:18] <CareBear\> and even if there are just 2 axis
[21:10:26] <CareBear\> it still needs to be programmable logic..
[21:10:27] <Loetmichel> tahts a bit much for ONE 8bit cpu
[21:10:29] <archivist> CareBear\, I know there is a high speed bidirectional mode in usb, that part needs moving to the kernel in realtime
[21:10:38] <CareBear\> archivist : please forget about realtime
[21:10:50] <archivist> eg 1ms
[21:11:13] <archivist> we use rtai kernel
[21:11:42] <CareBear\> implementing 9x a simple closed loop control is pretty straightforward in an FPGA
[21:12:06] <archivist> the trajectory planning is not
[21:12:12] <CareBear\> of course
[21:12:20] <CareBear\> and it should certainly stay in the PC
[21:12:25] <archivist> so we keep it in the pc
[21:12:26] <CareBear\> key word is *planning*
[21:12:32] <CareBear\> not *execution*
[21:12:37] <CareBear\> they need to be separate
[21:12:50] <archivist> planning is realtime WITH feedback from the position
[21:13:04] <archivist> cannot be separate
[21:13:22] <CareBear\> so what does the planning do when something is not executing according to plan?
[21:13:40] <archivist> adjust , slows another axis to match
[21:14:48] <CareBear\> and you say it's impossible to precompute the compensation coefficients such that compensating is merely a lookup away?
[21:15:22] <archivist> you dont know without feedback
[21:15:38] <CareBear\> of course
[21:15:42] <CareBear\> given feedback
[21:16:00] <archivist> which is why communications have to be deterministic
[21:16:10] <CareBear\> they never are
[21:16:30] <CareBear\> not even on PCI or HT
[21:16:51] <CareBear\> but okey, you said something about 1 ms?
[21:17:03] <archivist> within a small latency
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[21:22:21] <archivist> servo systems can work reasonably well with a 1ms period, stepper systems need a faster period
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[21:29:30] <CareBear\> not going to happen
[21:30:53] <CareBear\> so, a USB primer:
[21:31:03] <CareBear\> most communication is unidirectional
[21:31:12] <CareBear\> there are a couple of layers of protocol
[21:31:14] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: "I'm ready for my close up" http://i43.tinypic.com/o8s8px.jpg
[21:31:37] <CareBear\> bandwidth can be reserved on a bus, but only at the cost of error correction
[21:31:42] <CareBear\> this seems appropriate however
[21:32:05] <CareBear\> the full speed timeslot is 1ms
[21:32:13] <CareBear\> the high speed timeslot is 125µs
[21:32:27] <CareBear\> inside one timeslot there can be multiple data transfers going on
[21:33:16] <CareBear\> I don't believe that round trips can be accomplished within one timeslot
[21:33:20] <joe9> mikegg, wondering if you could help me make the spindle straight.
[21:33:40] <joe9> It was 0.002 inch runout. I made it 0.004 inch runout by trying to correct it.
[21:35:41] <archivist> cant find my copy of the spec here at the moment
[21:39:05] <CareBear\> archivist : in any case, you can not really control the scheduling
[21:39:16] <CareBear\> archivist : it is done by the host controller
[21:40:17] <archivist> but can the host be controlled to be more deterministic than normal
[21:40:29] <CareBear\> not to the degree that you need
[21:40:57] <CareBear\> Isochronous endpoints are given opportunities to the bus every N (micro)frames.
[21:41:00] <CareBear\> is one quote
[21:42:28] <CareBear\> so the best that could be done would be to schedule half a microframe full of isoc IN transfers, and half a microframe of isoc OUT transfers
[21:42:36] <CareBear\> interleaved
[21:45:40] <archivist> can half a microframe full of isoc IN transfers, and half a microframe of isoc OUT transfers can be done reliably though
[21:46:08] <CareBear\> that mostly depends on the USB stack
[21:46:29] <CareBear\> the host controller (the PCI device) is built to do it
[21:46:47] <archivist> and.... can we steal that part of the stack and move it out of userspace
[21:46:53] <CareBear\> huh+
[21:46:54] <CareBear\> ?
[21:46:59] <CareBear\> it's not in userspace
[21:47:52] <CareBear\> this is how every linux works
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[21:48:15] <archivist> when using rtai
[21:48:25] <CareBear\> I never have :)
[21:48:32] <archivist> this is not every linux
[21:49:05] <archivist> I know there have been one or two attempts
[21:49:31] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: Did you see the links?
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[21:51:17] <CareBear\> archivist : so what is USB like on rtai?
[21:51:30] <CareBear\> archivist : I mean, drivers/usb/*
[21:52:00] <archivist> it lives outside the realtime part
[21:52:15] <CareBear\> that's fine
[21:52:17] <archivist> so we dont/cannot use it
[21:52:22] <CareBear\> aha
[21:52:26] <CareBear\> so you have to write a USB stack then
[21:52:27] <CareBear\> good luck
[21:52:28] <CareBear\> :)
[21:52:44] <CareBear\> seriously - it's an xy problem
[21:52:59] <CareBear\> it will either fail or be a hellish effort
[21:53:07] <CareBear\> design another way instead
[21:53:11] <gene__> is anyone using ndiswrapper with a netgear WNA3100 USB DONGLE?
[21:53:12] <archivist> most use a pci or parallel port
[21:53:34] <CareBear\> sure, local bus can work fine
[21:53:45] <CareBear\> parport not so much
[21:53:57] <Jymmm> gene__: You using DOS ?
[21:54:09] <gene__> 10.04 on my lappy
[21:54:22] <CareBear\> archivist : building a pci device is more effort though
[21:54:28] <Jymmm> gene__: Why NDIS then?
[21:54:28] <CareBear\> archivist : buildling a clever usb device is not so much effort
[21:54:34] <cradek> 50,000,000 Elvis Fans Can't Be Wrong
[21:54:48] <gene__> it won't load bcmwlhigh5 now, last time powered up, it worked fine
[21:55:04] <Jymmm> gene__: Oh, did an update occure?
[21:55:21] <cradek> (probably the vast majority of linuxcnc users use the parallel port)
[21:55:22] <gene__> Only driver for a netgear usb dongle.
[21:55:26] <Jymmm> ah
[21:55:29] <CareBear\> archivist : the key is in the protocol. the planning must be split from execution, so that execution of one synchronized "move" can run standalone
[21:55:52] <CareBear\> archivist : this may mean requirement to precompute compensation coefficients
[21:56:02] <JT-Shop> I saw the squirrel Jymmm
[21:56:11] <CareBear\> archivist : and have them be delivered with the "move plan" which will be the atom of the USB protocol
[21:56:12] <Jymmm> gene__: I only use NDIS drivers in MS-DOS myself.
[21:56:18] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: Cool =)
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[21:56:34] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: There are a couple of other links I gave you too.
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[21:56:55] <gene__> I wouldn't let a dos install disk get within 100 feet of my stuff :)
[21:57:25] <Jymmm> why?
[21:57:41] <djdelorie> CareBear\: is this the kind of thing that would be better served by, say, a CAN protocol?
[21:58:27] <archivist> CareBear\, the intelligent other has to be up to a PC's abilities, current ly the display can be on a separate pc and communicate via a network
[22:03:14] <archivist> the djdelorie of djgpp fame? /me used it many years ago
[22:03:23] <djdelorie> yes, that's me
[22:04:10] <archivist> worked perfectly on a job I did where M$ stuff didnt :)
[22:04:16] <djdelorie> currently buiding one of these: http://www.delorie.com/photos/cnc/ with three of these: http://www.delorie.com/electronics/bldc/
[22:04:28] <djdelorie> archivist: glad I could help :-)
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[22:11:49] <archivist> bldc driver looks interesting
[22:12:08] <DJ9DJ> gn8
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[22:13:18] <djdelorie> thanks. My friend says they're the most expensive "free" motors I've ever gotten...
[22:13:45] <djdelorie> but I put a CAN interface on the boards, and in theory they're powerful enough to run the motor paths themselves, if I can figure out how...
[22:18:02] <CareBear\> hi dj
[22:18:05] <archivist> andypugh found some interesting hall phases from various bldc motors
[22:18:53] <djdelorie> I only use the hall phases until I see the enc-Z pulse, then I use the encoder value instead, they're more accurate.
[22:19:19] <CareBear\> dj : the requirement we're looking at is 9 axis synchronized. this needs control to be local, or it will just fail
[22:19:49] <CareBear\> archivist : the point is to make a protocol where the "other" can be pretty stupid as long as it has fast response time
[22:20:17] <CareBear\> archivist : worst case this means precomputing lots of data that the stupid other has to use to look up how it will compensate
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[22:20:49] <vin321> are thease drivers any good ?http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5-AXIS-TB6560-CNC-DRIVER-BOARD-4-STEPPER-MOTOR-ROUTER-/110834096417?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19ce3a1921
[22:22:32] <CareBear\> dj : at least that's myho. the synchronization is the real difficult part. it doesn't seem like there's room for any round trips there.. the 9 controllers need to be closely connected. my thought was to put them all in one FPGA. could be that they can talk to each other via CAN just as well.
[22:22:50] <CareBear\> s/any round trips/a star topology/
[22:23:19] <djdelorie> my thought was, the controllers could "calibrate" their own axes, and share that info amongst themselves, then provide shared feedback to each other.
[22:23:44] <CareBear\> exactly
[22:23:45] <archivist> vin321, define any good, TB6560 has some strangeness
[22:24:13] <archivist> CareBear\, the controller is IN linuxcnc
[22:24:14] <djdelorie> but I still haven't gotten step/direction to work cleanly, so who am I to say? ;-)
[22:24:38] <CareBear\> archivist : that needs a redesign I'm afraid :)
[22:24:46] <archivist> no it does not
[22:25:28] <CareBear\> I think it does, in order to deal with bursty communication
[22:26:00] <vin321> i guess i need a cheep driver coz i smoked the lame 1's i had
[22:26:03] <archivist> cannot have bursty comms. the comms have to be fixed
[22:26:13] <CareBear\> sure can
[22:26:39] <CareBear\> but needs control closer to each axis
[22:26:39] <archivist> vin321, some are using those chips
[22:27:08] <CareBear\> archivist : is the situation for cnc same as for extrusion, that constant movement is important for a nice end result?
[22:27:29] <CareBear\> intuitively I might expect that it's not so
[22:27:30] <archivist> problems of noise(stepper whistle) adjust capacitors
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[22:29:50] <CareBear\> archivist : my thinking is this: when a plan goes wrong, the 8 local controllers adjust to the one that went wrong. at some point all 9 are back on the originally planned trajectory, but going forward from there perhaps there should instead be a new plan. if that is the case, could they all stop and wait for a new plan when they have compensated and all come back on track?
[22:29:53] <archivist> CareBear\, constant and related to loads
[22:30:24] <archivist> and its flying at speed
[22:30:49] <CareBear\> didn't mean constant speed, but constant motion
[22:31:23] <CareBear\> ie. is it OK to stop?
[22:31:31] <archivist> no
[22:31:39] <CareBear\> why?
[22:31:44] <archivist> damage
[22:31:48] <CareBear\> of?
[22:31:55] <CareBear\> /to
[22:32:03] <archivist> tooling, who know
[22:32:25] <CareBear\> is the spindle considered one axis?
[22:32:32] <CareBear\> or would there be multiple?
[22:32:37] <CareBear\> ie. what are those 9 actually?
[22:32:38] <CareBear\> :)
[22:32:59] <archivist> spindle can be eg with solid tapping
[22:33:27] <archivist> so Z must follow loading on the spindle
[22:34:00] <CareBear\> but then Z could also stop
[22:34:16] <CareBear\> (while spindle does *not* stop)
[22:36:02] <archivist> sudden stopping breaks things with solid tapping unless axes follow each other with feedback and Linuxcnc controls the maximum following error
[22:36:22] <CareBear\> well, I'm not thinking so much sudden stopping
[22:36:36] <PCW> hatch789 around?
[22:36:59] <CareBear\> archivist : more that, in the case of X and Y being fixed, then Z can stop instead of move without problem
[22:37:20] <CareBear\> archivist : if we're making a hole straight down
[22:37:42] <cncbasher> PCW : yea he is
[22:37:47] <cncbasher> me too
[22:37:52] <archivist> tapping is the norm for some
[22:38:46] <archivist> CareBear\, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6p1-h5Rlv4
[22:38:52] <CareBear\> archivist : where I'm going is that compensating for an error during execution of the planning could perhaps be simplified to getting back to the originally planned trajectory, as opposed to calculating a completely new trajectory for the rest of the job
[22:40:07] <PCW> freeby.mesanet.com/svrm6.bit should be betterer
[22:40:14] <archivist> see video it HAS to follow what the spindle does
[22:40:51] <JT-Shop> I think you should do it CareBear\
[22:41:04] -!- syyl has quit [Quit: Leaving]
[22:41:40] <CareBear\> JT-Shop : I have waay too many things to do already :p
[22:41:56] -!- bedah has quit [Quit: bye]
[22:42:04] <CareBear\> JT-Shop : but the discussion helps me understand how a protocol could look
[22:42:35] <JT-Shop> oh, I though you were trying to convince archivist to do it for you :P
[22:43:16] <CareBear\> JT-Shop : that's fine too! I will not get around to it anytime soon
[22:43:22] <CareBear\> JT-Shop : if ever
[22:43:44] <CareBear\> JT-Shop : the discussion started with questions about USB, which is one of my scenes
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[22:45:42] <CareBear\> archivist : I think the hardware effort for a PCI(e) controller is significantly smaller than the software effort for precomputing compensation the way I'm thinking of. I don't know linuxcnc, but I can understand that it would mean a big change.
[22:45:57] <CareBear\> 1-lane PCIe is not a bad idea
[22:46:06] <CareBear\> then it can go into an ExpressCard
[22:46:16] <archivist> we already have pci pcie is just around the corner
[22:46:32] <CareBear\> open? documented?
[22:47:38] <archivist> http://www.mesanet.com/ documented
[22:49:02] <archivist> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?EMC2_Supported_Hardware
[22:52:02] <CareBear\> ouch, rt-usb from 2005 /o\
[22:52:38] <CareBear\> originally only full speed
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[22:53:03] <archivist> needs love and bringing up to date
[22:53:10] -!- isssy has quit [Quit: Bye Bye]
[22:53:34] <CareBear\> project no longer at berlios
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[22:54:05] <PCW> Its a nice spring day, here hows it there?
[22:54:14] <CareBear\> about midnight
[22:54:17] <PCW> oops
[22:54:20] <CareBear\> :)
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[22:55:12] <CareBear\> cloudy, in the low 40s F
[22:55:20] <CareBear\> maybe high 30s even
[22:55:30] <joe9> is it a hard job to straighten a drill press spindle? I tried the tapping with the hammer approach, but that is just making it worse.
[22:56:03] <CareBear\> archivist : it seems the PCI FPGA boards from mesa don't really have a bitstream?
[22:56:13] <CareBear\> archivist : this is both good and bad :)
[22:56:28] <PCW> Cold and foggy this morning but now sunny and about 65/70s here
[22:56:39] <CareBear\> PCW : sounds nice!
[22:57:24] <archivist> joe9, it is an acquired skill, some take a lifetime to get there
[22:57:48] <joe9> archivist: i guess that means it is a hard job.
[22:58:06] <archivist> joe9, er yes, else get a replacement
[22:58:07] <cradek> for a drill press, runouts of .002 and .004 are both just fine unless you intend to use very tiny drills
[22:58:32] <joe9> cradek: yes, i am planning on using a drill bit for 0.5 mm holes.
[22:58:42] <joe9> with a chuck, the runout is amplified to 0.020 inches.
[22:58:47] <cradek> eek
[22:58:53] <joe9> and that is worrisome as I can see the wobble with my bare eyes.
[22:58:59] <cradek> maybe you need a completely different machine then :-)
[22:59:35] <cradek> a mill with collets, so you can use 1/8" or 6mm shank drills
[22:59:43] <joe9> cradek: do you think it is bad for a drill press with a transfer punch, to show a wobble that can be detected by the human eye?
[23:00:01] <cradek> depends on your eye calibration
[23:00:40] <archivist> your expectations of that type of drill press need relaxing a bit
[23:01:47] <archivist> which has reminded me, I need to make a new spindle for my high speed drill press
[23:03:36] <CareBear\> archivist : I'm off for food! very interesting discussion, thanks for that! I think the common packet busses simply aren't fit. PCIe will do.
[23:04:00] <CareBear\> aren't/don't
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[23:05:19] <PCW> Glad that was a silly typo/braino in the 7I43 resolver stuff and not anything that required thinking
[23:06:01] <CareBear\> archivist : http://www.picocomputing.com/e_series.html
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[23:10:48] <joe9> archivist: it seems to be expected that drill presses have a runout that makes the the drill bit appear to wobble. I am of the opinion that a replacement spindle might not help. Is the "replacement spindle" was what you were recommending?
[23:11:14] <joe9> if a replacement spindle has the same runout, it does not help at all.
[23:17:25] <PCW> its it bent or just loose bearings
[23:17:29] <PCW> ?
[23:17:39] <joe9> i changed all the bearings
[23:17:53] <joe9> I think at this point, the only thing wrong, could be the bent spindle.
[23:18:14] <alex4nder> are you using a chuck? what kind?
[23:18:18] <joe9> tried tapping it a little, but, that is not giving it much better results.
[23:18:33] <joe9> alex4nder: I am checking the runout at the spindle, no chuck.
[23:18:37] <alex4nder> cool
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[23:22:03] <joe9> PCW, does that make sense?
[23:22:28] <JT-Shop> joe9: is this a drill press?
[23:22:35] <joe9> JT-Shop: yes.
[23:23:17] <PCW> taper bored crooked?
[23:23:20] <JT-Shop> it ain't going to be perfect
[23:23:51] <joe9> PCW, when I tap the spindle with a hammer, it is changing the runout. but, just cannot get it well enough.
[23:23:57] <joe9> PCW, yes, that is possible.
[23:23:57] <JT-Shop> did you blue the spindle taper and the chuck to see if they have a perfect fit?
[23:24:38] <joe9> JT-Shop: no, I tried with a different arbor and chuck with the same results.
[23:24:49] <JT-Shop> joe9: if you use a hammer you must put your hand between the hammer and the object you hit to get a feel for the pressures
[23:25:00] <joe9> haha..
[23:25:03] <JT-Shop> what is the runout of the spindle at the taper
[23:25:17] <joe9> 0.002 initially. now, around 0.004 inches.
[23:25:38] <JT-Shop> that's dam good for a cheap drill press
[23:25:54] <joe9> with the chuck, that is getting amplified to 0.020 inches.
[23:25:58] <JT-Shop> was it .004 after the hammer treatment
[23:26:03] <joe9> yes.
[23:27:17] <JT-Shop> you probably borked your bearings when you hammered on it, aside from that check the fit of the chuck on the taper with some Prussian blue
[23:27:28] <fragalot> now ifyou replace the inches by mm, you've got yourself a damn nice system
[23:27:38] <JT-Shop> lol
[23:28:09] <JT-Shop> are you indicating the od of the chuck nose or a bent drill bit
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[23:28:39] <joe9> when i put in a transfer punch, I can see it wobble pretty badly.
[23:29:01] <joe9> with the transfer punch or just at the chuck, the runout is 0.020 inches.
[23:29:24] <JT-Shop> put your test indicator on the chuck not the transfer punch to find out if the chuck is wobbling or your jaws suck
[23:29:25] <joe9> let me see if mikegg can help me. if not, I will have to look for another machine oslt.
[23:29:41] <JT-Shop> your skipping too many steps...
[23:29:44] <joe9> no, the chuck is good. tried with 2 different chucks.
[23:29:53] <joe9> and, the runout is the same at the chuck
[23:30:17] <JT-Shop> do you even know if you have the correct taper chuck?
[23:30:36] <joe9> yes, I have the correct taper chuck.
[23:30:48] <joe9> I matched the spec with the one that I bought.
[23:30:59] <joe9> it was a Morse Taper #3 for the machine
[23:31:03] <JT-Shop> then the chuck nose should not have any more runout than the spindle
[23:31:31] <JT-Shop> check the fit of the chuck on the spindle with blue
[23:31:31] <joe9> it does, and that is the reason I think it could be the spindle.
[23:31:50] <JT-Shop> how could it be the spindle
[23:32:23] <joe9> if the spindle is bent, would it not make it like a pendulum when the chuck is on?
[23:33:10] <JT-Shop> did you put your test indicator on the tip of the spindle then back up a bit to see if it is bent
[23:33:52] <JT-Shop> and yes 0.004" at the base of the spindle taper will be a bit more down the chuck
[23:33:52] <joe9> i put the dial indicator on the tip of the spindle. what do you mean "back up a bit"?
[23:34:22] <JT-Shop> measure at the bottom of the taper then the top of the taper to see if the runout is the same
[23:35:05] <joe9> I did with an arbor (no chuck) and it was the same at the spindle and at the (bottom) end of the arbor.
[23:35:13] <joe9> does that make sense?
[23:35:33] <joe9> want to check if I am able to explain what I did properly.
[23:38:07] <JT-Shop> do you mean you indicated the taper of the spindle or something on the spindle?
[23:39:17] * archivist hopes on a cleanly ground bit
[23:45:07] * JT-Shop goes back to making cannon parts
[23:58:50] <JT-Shop> lol, my drill press has 0.006" TIR and I don't care
[23:59:29] <PCW> Aim your cannon at joe9s drill press :-)
[23:59:55] <JT-Shop> LOL, OK Peter I will but he has to be within about 1/2 mile or so