#linuxcnc | Logs for 2012-02-26

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[00:15:53] <joe9> want to check your thoughts on this, please? I have a drill press with a runout of 0.025 inches. I measured it by putting a harbor freight transfer punch in it and slowly rotating the chuck manually. Is it acceptable?
[00:16:14] <joe9> the quill did not move when I pull it with my bare hands. no movement there.
[00:29:37] <morfic> Tom_itx: realtek 8168b?
[00:35:02] <Tom_itx> looks that way
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[00:35:21] <Tom_itx> r1816e
[00:35:35] <Tom_itx> r1816e-2.fw is the missing file
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[01:16:03] <cstop> Has there been discussion of the OpenDRO topic? Comments?
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[01:34:02] <KimK> joe9: Depends on what you're doing with it, but I'd guess most folks would say no. It would be especially hard on small drill bits. Imagine trying to drill a .050" hole, the bit would be trying to go back and forth half its diameter. If you're just roughing out stuff, maybe OK.
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[01:38:20] <jthornton> joe9 if your still around try and take the chuck off and clean the taper and re-mount to see if your runout gets any better
[01:39:24] <jthornton> Tom_itx: my 525 works fine, have you upgraded the bios on yours?
[01:40:03] <Tom_itx> jthornton, it's not the emc install
[01:40:09] <Tom_itx> that works fine
[01:40:20] <Tom_itx> it's a new debian 6.0.4 install
[01:41:01] <Tom_itx> i've found a couple threads saying not everything was supported
[01:43:16] <jthornton> ah, ok
[01:43:25] <jthornton> had me going there for a minute
[01:43:42] * jthornton hears lots of big bubbles in the background
[01:43:53] <Tom_itx> i was doing some testing on it before i committed the changes to my server
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[01:59:52] <joe9> KimK: jthornton: I got the chuck and arbor out. I notice a 2 mil (0.002 inches) runout on the inside of the quill (wall of the morse taper socket). Is that acceptable or normal?
[02:05:27] <joe9> i am using a 1/72 inch drill bit to drill some small holes in a pcb.
[02:05:56] <KimK> joe9: You didn't say the brand of drill press. It might be typical for Harbor Freight? Someone with the appropriate precision grinding setup might be able to improve the socket taper for you?
[02:06:09] <KimK> joe9: Ah, that's different...
[02:06:10] <joe9> sorry, the radius of the drill bit is 1/64 inch.
[02:06:30] <joe9> KimK: Central Machinery 38142 is the drill press.
[02:06:46] <joe9> let me find a link. I will post it.
[02:08:11] <joe9> kimK, http://www.harborfreight.com/heavy-duty-16-speed-bench-drill-press-38142.html?hft_adv=10062&gclid=CPyDmrXHuq4CFQff4AodvlTlPg
[02:08:56] <joe9> KimK: for such holes, do you consider 2 mil acceptable (in the quill)?
[02:09:16] <joe9> I read that if the quill has a big runout, just chuck the drill.
[02:09:33] <joe9> If it is the chuck or arbor, then it can be replaced and things are ok.
[02:10:47] <joe9> I am trying to ascertain if the 2 mil on the quill is considered too much for holes with a drill bit of radius 1/64 inch.
[02:10:53] <KimK> joe9: ...In that case, another way out (cheaper, faster, not as "good") presents itself. You might consider using a "sensitive drill" adapter http://www.sherline.com/1012inst.htm and shimming it as needed to get the runout better. Yes, it's a lot of fiddling around, but you'd only have to do it once per PCB drilling festival.
[02:11:45] <joe9> KimK: do you consider 2 mil on the quill bad for my purposes?
[02:14:20] <KimK> I'd like to see it closer, yes, but you could try it and see how bad it is for you. If your drills are "long" (relative to their diameter), maybe there will be enough "flex" to make it work? Not the greatest, but you're speccing your own holes, right? So if they "look good", you're done?
[02:14:38] <joe9> ok, thanks.
[02:15:22] <KimK> I'd try it and see what happens.
[02:15:43] <joe9> KimK: "It is difficult to maintain tolerances closer than +.003" -.000 with drills. If greater accuracy is required, a reamer should be employed." -- I read this in the link pasted.
[02:16:05] <joe9> If so, then the quill with a runout of 0.002" is probably ok?
[02:16:33] <joe9> I am more concerned if runout at the quill increases exponentially after I put in the chuck and etc.
[02:16:46] <joe9> or, if it stays the same provided the other stuff is perfect.
[02:17:56] <joe9> 0.002" runout is ok for my purposes. but, if the runout will increase by a high proportion even with a perfect chuck/arbor, then I am wasting my time with this drill.
[02:18:01] <joe9> Does that make sense?
[02:19:58] <KimK> What you say is true. And since the spindle nose is the basis for everything from that point on, in a perfect world your spindle nose runout would be zero. Otherwise you (as a perfectionist) will say, "The runout is not zero, I cannot continue!" But in a world of limited budgets, I'd try it and see if it is "good enough".
[02:22:02] <KimK> You might keep an eye out for 1/8" dowel pins, as 1/8" is usually considered the largest "small" drill bit. You could chuck the 1/8" dowel pin in your setup and check for runout at the drill tip.
[02:22:08] <joe9> kimk, these are the instructions I am following: "The run-out could be in the quill, the chuck, or the arbor. First, remove the chuck (I'm assuming that it's mounted on a morse-taper arbor) from the quill using a drill drift, and run the point of your dial indicator on the inside of the quill - on the wall of the morse-taper socket. If the run-out is there then the drill is junk for sure. If the socket is good then the problem is in ...
[02:22:14] <joe9> ... the arbor (cheap to replace) or the chuck (not cheap to replace, but often worth replacing just to have one that works smoothly). It's also possible that the chuck might not have been assembled properly onto the arbor, or the arbor might not be seated properly in the quill. If you can remove the arbor from the chuck then you can install it in the quill and check the Jacobs-taper surface for runout. The arbor is, honestly, not ...
[02:22:20] <joe9> ... likely to be that far out, even a cheap one. Some chucks have a hole in them so you can bang the arbor out using a pin punch. If your chuck doesn't have that hole then you either need to drill such a hole (often requiring another drill press) or you need wedges made for the purpose to remove it. Once you know where the problem is you can work on it. As to how much run-out is acceptable, I'd say that 2 thou total runout is ...
[02:22:26] <joe9> ... reasonable for a cheap drill press, but 10 thou is actually well within the needs of the average woodworker just drilling holes in wood. However! Just because you don't really NEED the accuracy doesn't mean you should settle for junk."
[02:22:30] <joe9> kimK, oops very sorry. bigger paste than I imagined.
[02:22:35] <Tom_itx> woah
[02:22:43] <joe9> i got them from http://forum.canadianwoodworking.com/showthread.php?26529-Drill-Press-Runout-what-is-reasonable
[02:22:49] <joe9> Tom_itx: very sorry about that.
[02:24:01] <joe9> kimK, http://pastebin.com/sriiivzi
[02:24:50] <joe9> KimK: I have the machinist's transfer punch and I am checking the runout using the transfer punches.
[02:25:47] <joe9> the belts are pretty bad. so, I will be replacing them too. I read about the "vibration less belts" http://www.paragoncode.com/shop/link_belts/ . wondering what you think of them/
[02:26:03] <KimK> OK. A transfer punch is usually kind of long, though. I thought an 1/8 dowel pin might be more "circuit board drill-like".
[02:26:06] <joe9> s/are pretty bad/seem bad/
[02:27:16] <joe9> there are no cracks or anything in the belts, but, I bought the drill "used" and there was a lot of rubber dust near the belts.
[02:27:34] <joe9> hence, am thinking my accuracy could get better with "vibration less belts".
[02:30:49] <KimK> I have no info on their vibration-reducing qualities, but I am presently searching for various technologies of "breakable" v-belts for a machine where the belt must be broken to thread through holes. I didn't know about these, so, thanks!
[02:40:13] <joe9> glad to be of help.
[02:48:48] <KimK> The "less vibration" business might have come from the McMaster catalog description: http://www.mcmaster.com/#v-belts/=ger646 Not sure how they are defining vibration, but nevermind.
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[02:55:48] <joe9> KimK: the chuck says "1 - 16 mm JB". Does it mean that it is a Jacob's chuck? Where do you buy the chuck/arbor? McMasterCarr?
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[03:06:57] <KimK> Not sure about the "JB", but I'd expect that means Jacobs. But they don't specify the taper? Usually the Jacobs taper is marked JT something. See http://www.jacobschuck.com/pdf/Technical-Information.pdf Yes, you can get chucks and arbors at a lot of places, mscdirect.com, many more. The Arbrecht(sp?) hand-tightened chucks are nice, but take more turns to tighten/loosen. Usually pricier too.
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[03:15:08] <KimK> Oh, I was thinking about it, and on your .002" spindle shaft error, you (or someone) should be able to fix it with just a lathe and collet setup to hold the shaft (check accurate centering first), and then a die grinder with a small stone on the compound rest at the taper angle. You only have to take off (very carefully) a thousandth or two to fix it.
[03:19:34] <MattyMatt2> I've seen ancient leather belts like those ones
[03:20:07] <KimK> Ha, maybe that's what I need, lol!
[03:20:19] <MattyMatt2> I thought it was just a way of using scraps
[03:21:23] <MattyMatt2> and avoiding stiching the join
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[03:24:14] <joe9> ok, this is what I have with the chuck/arbor in the quill, runout at the quill: 0.002 inch, runout at the end of the chuck: 0.010 inches.
[03:24:20] <KimK> The break (or breaks) would be doubly handy on this machine because I need a break not only to install it (to thread it through some holes), but also to select the high or low pulley (no way to bring the pulleys together to de-tension them).
[03:24:34] <joe9> runout at the arbor: 0.002 inches.
[03:24:52] <joe9> so, I guess the chuck is the bad part.
[03:26:15] <joe9> I cannot figure out how to get the arbor out from the chuck. I tried punching a machinist's tap with a rubber mallet at the center between the teeth of the chuck and nothing is budging.
[03:26:25] <joe9> Is that how the arbor is removed from the chuck?
[03:26:25] <KimK> Maybe. It's also possible that the arbor hole is off-center and/or off-axis (at an angle).
[03:27:55] <KimK> Is the spindle female and the chuck male? Some are one way, some are the other.
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[03:30:13] <KimK> Oh, some chucks have a securing screw inside the chuck, where the tail of the drill bit goes. Sometimes an allen screw, sometimes a phillips, sometimes a torx. Also sometimes left-handed, be careful.
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[03:35:31] <MattyMatt2> chuck may not be the runout, it could be the top bearing in the spindle
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[03:36:51] <MattyMatt2> that would make the chuck seem bad just from the length of it
[03:37:25] <MattyMatt2> joe9 did you get the taper out of the spindle but still have the chuck stuck to the arbor?
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[03:38:36] <joe9> MattyMatt2: yes, I got the chuck+arbor out of the spindle, but, the chuck is still stuck to the arbor.
[03:39:03] <joe9> MattyMatt2: "chuck may not be the runout, it could be the top bearing in the spindle" that would be scary, isn't it?
[03:39:21] <joe9> would have to replace the drill, I guess, in this instance.
[03:39:58] <joe9> KimK: I do not see a screw there. just a small round slot kind of opening.
[03:41:39] <MattyMatt2> I guess you could ceck the runout of the top of the spindle to check, then if it is bad maybe you could bore & sleeve it or something, if it's a solid bearing
[03:43:47] <MattyMatt2> I guess if it's tight, the line between the spindle bearings is your datum, and so the taper is the issue
[03:44:22] * MattyMatt2 stops guessing
[03:44:26] <KimK> FWIW, the product manual for the drill link you gave does not show a chuck securing screw either. The manual does show two different ball bearings (probably radial), no doubt of a low-cost type.
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[03:45:30] <KimK> And it shows the arbor as male, chuck as female.
[03:48:14] <MattyMatt2> I use a metal hammer to unscrew a chuck usually. it's a light sharp tap on the chuck key that does it
[03:48:18] <joe9> The chuck and the arbor are pretty tight. I do not see any movement when I try to press with my hands. There are 2 things that could be wrong, it appears, 1. the spindle bearing may be gone. (I do not know what the "spindle" is, would have to google it. 2. the chuck might be a little bit off when seated in the arbor or the arbor is off when seated in the quill (is this even possible?)
[03:48:54] <MattyMatt2> by spindle I mean quill I guess
[03:50:04] <joe9> oh, the quill. I checked it by pushing/pulling it around. it did not budge. It was lose and moving around initially, but, I tightened the screw and not it is really snug there. no movement that I could feel with my hands.
[03:50:08] <MattyMatt2> a bit of dirt or damage on the arbor will make it sit off-centre in the quill
[03:50:38] <joe9> I put grease on the quill. Is that a bad idea?
[03:50:53] <joe9> MattyMatt2: I cleaned up the arbor pretty well before putting it in.
[03:51:08] <MattyMatt2> and did you check inside for dirt?
[03:51:13] <joe9> damage, probable.
[03:51:47] <joe9> MattyMatt2: I looked in it and did not see anything as far as I could see. but, it is a small opening to really get a lot of details.
[03:51:51] <joe9> Does that make sense?
[03:52:11] <joe9> I could clean it by putting a cloth or something in that hole from the sides.
[03:52:22] <joe9> or, is there a better way of cleaning it?
[03:52:28] <MattyMatt2> yeah it'd be hard to see I guess, unless you had sunlight shining right up it
[03:53:02] <joe9> I removed the chuck twice and put it back in. I think if there was some dirt it would have been atleast displaced, correct?
[03:53:16] <joe9> both times, the runout was still 10 mil (0.010 inches).
[03:53:32] <MattyMatt2> i poke a parrafin soaked rag up on the end of a pencil etc, on an MT1, but I dunno if that's clever
[03:54:09] <MattyMatt2> a metal chip might be squashed into one place
[03:54:34] <MattyMatt2> or a grain of sand etc
[03:55:22] <joe9> possible, I bought it "used". I think my best option is to buy a new chuck+arbor and check the runout.
[03:55:37] <joe9> if the runout is still the same 10mil, then it is the drill or dirt.
[03:55:44] <joe9> MattyMatt2: would you concur?
[03:56:14] <MattyMatt2> ideally you'd want one of the precision gauge bars with a taper and 12" or so of precision straight shaft. they are expensive
[03:56:58] <MattyMatt2> that's what I need if I'm ever going to get my worn out mini lathe in any state of precision
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[03:57:45] <MattyMatt2> they are like boring bars but without the tool
[03:57:45] <pfred1> does anyone in here know about CAM software?
[03:58:15] <pfred1> MattyMatt2 I've been in a few boring bars
[03:58:42] <pfred1> in my experience they're usually filled with tools though
[03:58:50] <MattyMatt2> and they are usually full of tools :)
[03:58:57] <pfred1> jynx!
[03:59:31] <pfred1> I guess a boring bar without the tool is an empty bar then?
[04:00:19] <pfred1> anyhow this one tool on DIY-CNC insists it is the CAM software's task to generate G Code
[04:00:41] <pfred1> I always thought CAM was supposed to read G Code
[04:00:46] <MattyMatt2> yeah I guess that's usual definition of CAM
[04:01:03] <MattyMatt2> nope it's the controller that reads gcode
[04:01:08] <MattyMatt2> aka emc2
[04:01:19] <pfred1> so EMC2 isn't CAM software?
[04:01:53] <MattyMatt2> not in the narrow definition that's emerging
[04:02:18] <MattyMatt2> it's a machine controller software
[04:02:19] <pfred1> I'm not concerned with any emerging definition just the classical one
[04:03:13] <MattyMatt2> it has been called CAD/CAM for decades, so the split occured back then between CAS that doesn't produce gcode, and CAM which does
[04:03:26] <MattyMatt2> s/CAS/CAM
[04:03:29] <pfred1> CAD/CAm is different than just CAD and CAm
[04:03:31] <MattyMatt2> s/CAS/CAD
[04:03:53] <pfred1> puttingthe slash in there says it is an integrated system solution
[04:03:56] <MattyMatt2> CAD/CAM is an industry rather than an actual app
[04:04:20] <pfred1> that integration implies some kind of internal translation
[04:04:36] <pfred1> but to imply it with the separate terms is incorrect
[04:04:49] <pfred1> that is what the slash means
[04:05:12] <MattyMatt2> RhinoCAM produces g-code
[04:05:15] <pfred1> either that or it is a waste of electronis ink etc
[04:05:53] <pfred1> oh I'm not saying for an instant that there aren't any number of applications that make loose with the terms
[04:06:14] <pfred1> and make up their own definitions as they go along
[04:06:32] <pfred1> that doesn't automatically make them right either
[04:06:59] <MattyMatt2> I think most users would agree that "The CAM software" is the bit that converts CAD files into g-code
[04:07:43] <pfred1> OK so it is the in between software then that doesn't run the machine?
[04:08:03] <MattyMatt2> yeah
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[04:08:08] <pfred1> then Mach3 and EMC2 aren't CAM if I am following you
[04:08:21] <MattyMatt2> yep they are NC Controllers
[04:08:29] <MattyMatt2> CNC machines
[04:08:38] <pfred1> Numerical Control Controllers
[04:08:43] <pfred1> like NCC?
[04:08:45] <MattyMatt2> when integreated into the machine like a Fanuc
[04:08:53] <pfred1> isn't that what was on the Enterprise?
[04:09:02] <pfred1> NCC 1707?
[04:09:27] <pfred1> Fanuc makes machines wiht built in controllers don't they?
[04:10:01] <pfred1> so it is safe to say that Fanuc isn't in the CAM business
[04:10:23] <pfred1> they are in the CNC business
[04:10:26] <MattyMatt2> not by current usage of the term
[04:10:44] <MattyMatt2> so yeah Fanuc make controllers. Rhino do CAM
[04:10:45] <pfred1> see that is what I am trying to avoid is semantic slippery slopes
[04:10:59] <FinboySlick> Rhino does CAM?
[04:11:05] <pfred1> not what every knucklehead believes today but what actually is
[04:11:14] <MattyMatt2> speak French then. their language is controlled by a central commitee :)
[04:11:15] <FinboySlick> We talking the makers of Rhino 3D here?
[04:11:21] <pfred1> because i understand there is some confusion surrounding all of this
[04:11:40] <FinboySlick> MattyMatt2: Oui, mais pas en France ;)
[04:12:12] <pfred1> MattyMatt2 so this is turning into a gay marrige debate is it?
[04:12:52] <MattyMatt2> Rhino 3D is what I'd call CAD, but afaik they do a version/plugin that outputs gcode and that's what I'd call CAM
[04:13:13] <pfred1> well sure a CAD package can have an export filter
[04:13:19] <FinboySlick> MattyMatt2: It was a genuine question. I didn't know they had G-Code generation.
[04:13:23] <pfred1> I'm perfectly fine with that
[04:13:38] <MattyMatt2> which turns it into CAD/CAM
[04:13:46] <pfred1> a CAM controller could even have an import filter
[04:13:50] <FinboySlick> I only used Rhino pre 2000.
[04:14:01] <FinboySlick> Back then, it was super-new and exciting.
[04:14:03] <MattyMatt2> I call blender a CAM package, simply because it has a gcode output script :)
[04:14:16] <pfred1> but what I'm trying to determine is if an NC controller without a G Code generator isn't still a complete package
[04:14:49] <MattyMatt2> pfred1 yeah if an engraving machine could work direct from jpeg or dxf, I'd agree that was CAM
[04:14:52] <pfred1> because I'll be honest I consider the NC controller the CAM
[04:15:25] <pfred1> if chips ain't flying you ain't machining
[04:15:33] <pfred1> simple as that
[04:15:39] <MattyMatt2> it's CAM in the greater general term
[04:16:21] <MattyMatt2> like compiling is a general term for preprocessing, compiling and linking
[04:16:49] <pfred1> you can look at an object file and it ain't plain text no more
[04:17:00] <pfred1> something has indeed been operated on
[04:17:29] <pfred1> but I can look at G Code and it isn't putting a finished part in my hand
[04:18:04] <pfred1> no that seals it the M in CAM
[04:18:10] <pfred1> I know what machining is
[04:18:42] <pfred1> it seems even what CAM stands for has slid a little
[04:18:48] <MattyMatt2> I hoover with my VAx dyson
[04:19:13] <pfred1> it used to be CAD Computer Aided Design and CAM Computer Assisted Machining
[04:19:21] <pfred1> now i see Aided in both contexts
[04:20:43] <FinboySlick> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQIYZ-iKuG4 Here, distraction for you two.
[04:20:49] <MattyMatt2> yeah but now CAD refers to draghting, and CAM refers to manufacturing design
[04:21:13] <pfred1> actually design comes before drawing
[04:21:42] <pfred1> although during the drawing process designs are usually refined
[04:21:56] <Tom_itx> cam takes the cad to the machine
[04:22:21] <pfred1> Tom_itx so I can load a DXF file and I'm good to go?
[04:22:48] <MattyMatt2> I blame the unions, they were the ones doing the demarcation when it was humans not software packages :)
[04:22:48] <pfred1> I know in some cases this is true but I'm saying semantically is that absolutely correct?
[04:23:10] <Tom_itx> mine is a combined package
[04:23:22] <Tom_itx> not all are that way
[04:23:23] <pfred1> but is that to say that htey all have to be?
[04:23:27] <pfred1> exactly!
[04:23:39] <MattyMatt2> FinboySlick, already drooled over that one :)
[04:23:51] <pfred1> I understand it is becomming the rule today but all I'm saying is it really isn't THE RULE
[04:23:53] <Tom_itx> which is crap really since the end product requres both usually
[04:24:18] <Tom_itx> my bud spent $75K on a catia seat and still had to get a windows post for it
[04:24:26] <MattyMatt2> pfred1 the rule today is the rule. language is communication
[04:25:18] <pfred1> MattyMatt2 well in that case there are going to be an awful lot of dissappointed people out there when they find their setups break arbitrary rules made up by idiots
[04:25:30] <pfred1> as they stumble along
[04:25:31] <MattyMatt2> 7 billion and rising
[04:25:51] <FinboySlick> Catia is $75k?
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[04:26:39] <pfred1> FinboySlick insane what some have the gall to charge for strings of ones and zeros today isn't it?
[04:26:47] <MattyMatt2> 7 milliard and rising :)
[04:26:49] <Tom_itx> i don't know what sort of agreement he made but yes it cost that to get set up with it
[04:28:08] <FinboySlick> I was formally trained on Catia v4 on Sun hardware a while back. It was sure impressive for its time but for playing with the windows version a few years back I'm not sure what justifies the cost over SolidWorks.
[04:28:26] <pfred1> FinboySlick greed
[04:28:35] <Tom_itx> yeah i have a windows demo disk here i've never opened
[04:28:40] <FinboySlick> I know it can manage every bolt and rivet of an Airbus... And was for a while the largest software project in all of Europe.
[04:28:49] <MattyMatt2> when I was young a billion meant 10¹² but then in the 70s we started hearing "billion dollar deficits" on the news and all started using the american meaning
[04:28:53] <Tom_itx> his was on a sun iirc
[04:29:17] * pfred1 took apart a Sun pizza box with nothing but a crowbar once
[04:29:21] <Tom_itx> i never used it myself as i had my cad cam on windows already
[04:29:33] <pfred1> they really built them suckers
[04:29:38] <Tom_itx> i did see it though and it looked nice
[04:29:39] <FinboySlick> pfred1: You need a crowbar to open these, they're built with 1/8 steel.
[04:29:43] <pfred1> we didn't have a scrwdriver :)
[04:29:52] <Tom_itx> except for not having a post
[04:30:01] <pfred1> took us a good minute to pry it open
[04:30:24] <FinboySlick> I remember having to rack E250s.
[04:30:25] <pfred1> it looked a bit like a large potato chip when we were done
[04:30:58] <pfred1> then we were pissed because the RAM modules in it were weird
[04:31:15] <FinboySlick> All Sun hardware was weird.
[04:31:15] <pfred1> so we tossed it into a dumpster
[04:31:25] <FinboySlick> They blamed their CPU bugs on sunspots too.
[04:31:31] <FinboySlick> Ah the good old days.
[04:31:39] <pfred1> yeah I was demoing out a pherma company
[04:31:45] <pfred1> pharma even
[04:31:58] <pfred1> we got truckloads of computer gear out of that place
[04:33:09] <pfred1> the people who invented LSD
[04:33:24] <FinboySlick> Pff, that's the CIA.
[04:33:27] <pfred1> Sandoz
[04:33:35] <pfred1> nope was Sandoz
[04:33:51] <pfred1> they sucked to work for
[04:34:00] <MattyMatt2> CIA just invented novel uses for it
[04:34:23] <pfred1> they'd hold you up at their guard shack for ah alf a day sometimes
[04:34:39] <pfred1> we didn't care we still got paid
[04:34:49] <FinboySlick> See, CIA front. My conspiracy self prevails.
[04:35:08] <pfred1> oh they had tractor trailers of cocaine going into that joint sometimes
[04:35:39] <pfred1> they had big numbers painted on the tops of the trailers and they'd folow them with helicopters they weren't playing no games
[04:35:53] <MattyMatt2> mm novacaine. I'll be getting some of that soon I hope. mainlined into my gums
[04:36:50] <pfred1> I had a doc shoot me up wiht that stuff once 4 times I could still feel I was like just pull the tooth the shots are killing me!
[04:36:50] <MattyMatt2> or maybe I'll just pull my remaining stumps out unaided
[04:37:36] <MattyMatt2> the shots are nothing compared to toothache, in my experience
[04:38:04] <pfred1> oh when I had my wisdom teeth pulled i told them to gas me
[04:38:18] <pfred1> a decision I don't regret
[04:38:44] <MattyMatt2> I fought them going under and coming out, the one time I was gassed
[04:38:49] <pfred1> then I drank responsibly on Darvon for like a week
[04:40:08] <pfred1> now count backwards from 100 by threes ... 97
[04:40:47] <pfred1> that is al lI remember
[04:42:49] <Tom_itx> the last one i had out the guy left a chunk of it so i pulled it out when i got home
[04:43:24] <Tom_itx> it just didn't feel quite right for a couple days so i poked around a bit and jerked it out
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[04:44:36] <Thetawaves> my install of the ubuntu 10.4 linuxcnc edition keeps freezing the display
[04:44:50] <pfred1> Thetawaves turn the heat up
[04:44:53] <Thetawaves> emc2 continues to run the gcode though
[04:45:08] <Tom_itx> bad graphic driver?
[04:45:15] <Tom_itx> someone here i think had issues with that
[04:45:19] <pfred1> sounds like you're getting hit by GL issues like happened to me
[04:45:46] <pfred1> change your conf file to tkemc and see if it works then
[04:45:55] <pfred1> where it says display = axis
[04:46:13] <Thetawaves> what?
[04:46:38] <pfred1> are you getting kicked to the console from X?
[04:46:46] <pfred1> like black screen with big white text?
[04:46:56] <Thetawaves> Tom_itx, i had major issues just getting ubuntu 10.4 to run.. compiz would lock up my graphics
[04:47:07] <pfred1> oh man ditch compiz
[04:47:07] <Thetawaves> nope, just lockup
[04:47:15] <pfred1> ah different problem then
[04:47:15] <Tom_itx> why didn't you use the live cd?
[04:47:16] <Thetawaves> unrecoverable... can't install openssh-server either
[04:47:30] <Thetawaves> i did use the live cd?
[04:47:36] <Tom_itx> hmm
[04:47:48] <pfred1> I didn't use the live CD because Ubuntu sucks
[04:49:02] <pfred1> Thetawaves you check syslog to see if there are any clues what is going on?
[04:49:14] <Thetawaves> i did... absolutely nothing
[04:49:20] <pfred1> sweet
[04:49:44] <pfred1> well I'd still change from axis to tkemc
[04:50:01] <pfred1> see if you're not having a GL issue but you're going to have to kill compiz too
[04:50:40] <Thetawaves> in the ubuntu appearance settings you can tell it to not use any funny business
[04:50:43] <pfred1> really if it was me I'd change the entire window manager
[04:50:51] <Thetawaves> that reduced a lot of the freezing
[04:50:56] <pfred1> I recommend fluxbox
[04:51:06] <Thetawaves> lol
[04:51:16] <pfred1> what do you find so funny?
[04:51:21] <Thetawaves> i'd rather just try a newer linux and see if the bug has been fixed
[04:51:22] <pfred1> you want it to work
[04:51:48] <pfred1> because it is far easier for me to sit here and go lol it works here
[04:52:29] <Thetawaves> yeah but if i don't solve the root cause i'll forever be plagued by random hangs
[04:52:48] <pfred1> I narrowed it down to my GL libraries I should use software rendering if i want it to completely work
[04:53:01] <pfred1> nah if I don't use GL at all I'm fine
[04:53:13] <pfred1> soon as RTAI runs and GL does I'm sunk though
[04:53:37] <pfred1> but like I said if I wanted to completely fix it I'd have to change the GL library
[04:53:39] <Thetawaves> yeah but why is that
[04:53:48] <pfred1> I've chosen to simply avoid all GL
[04:53:57] <pfred1> because it is complicated
[04:54:04] <pfred1> and RTAI doesn't like hardware GL
[04:54:15] <Thetawaves> why!
[04:54:27] <pfred1> apparently there are conflicting signals
[04:54:34] <Thetawaves> Still have problems with a newer nvidia card?
[04:54:38] <pfred1> a message gets sent out and hangs forever
[04:54:52] <pfred1> you're not using the nvidia driver I hope
[04:55:06] <Thetawaves> nah gma3100 i thik
[04:55:20] <pfred1> well still make sure you are using software GL
[04:55:56] <pfred1> but it is easier to switch to tkemc and kill compiz to make sure that is even your issue
[04:56:07] <pfred1> or you'll be fixing what isn't evne broken
[04:57:40] <Thetawaves> gma945 actually
[04:58:18] <pfred1> run wihtout GL first to see if that is even what is causing your problems
[04:58:41] <pfred1> until you can isolate the cause it is all speculation
[04:59:51] <pfred1> and by GL i mean all instances of it because even glxgears caused it on my system when I was using tkemc
[04:59:52] <Thetawaves> anything can call opengl
[05:00:07] <pfred1> I know
[05:00:14] <pfred1> that is why I want you to make sure nothing does
[05:00:31] <pfred1> by killing that fool compiz trash
[05:00:41] <pfred1> and not using axis
[05:01:00] <pfred1> then if doing that makes the problem go away then you can change your GL libs
[05:01:46] <Thetawaves> so how do i use tkemc instead of axis
[05:01:58] <Thetawaves> i've already disabled compiz
[05:02:01] <pfred1> edit your machine's conf file and change your display = line
[05:02:22] <pfred1> a line will say display = axis remove axis and type in tkemc
[05:02:31] <pfred1> save and exit
[05:03:07] <pfred1> them when you fire up emc you'll see theit butt ugly Tk/tcl window pop up :)
[05:03:31] <pfred1> but it really isn't that bad reminds me of the BDI days
[05:04:45] <Thetawaves> none of the files have display=
[05:05:19] <Thetawaves> there are a whole bunch of files, which one should i put display=tkemc in
[05:05:26] <pfred1> I have a stand alone install i don't know how the CD image install is structured
[05:05:52] <pfred1> in my system I have an emc dir in my home dir that contains my machine's conf file
[05:06:31] <pfred1> the file should end with the suffix .conf and you should need to select it when you run your machine too
[05:06:55] <pfred1> least that is how it works here
[05:06:59] <Thetawaves> i have a shortcut
[05:07:27] <pfred1> but it should still pop open a dialog box that makes you select the conf associated with the machine you are operating
[05:07:42] <Thetawaves> nope
[05:07:45] <pfred1> you have to navigate to that conf file then edit it
[05:07:49] <Thetawaves> thats the point of the shortcut
[05:08:15] <pfred1> well then check the shortcut's properties it must be a command line parameter that feeds emc your conf file
[05:08:31] <Thetawaves> there is a .conf file generated by stepconf
[05:08:32] <pfred1> I start emc from the CLI
[05:08:42] <pfred1> yes that is your conf file
[05:10:13] <pfred1> someplace in it there should be a setting for what interface you use when you run EMC
[05:10:33] <pfred1> there must ba a half a dozen of them but today the default is axis if you run stepconf
[05:10:49] <pfred1> axis is nice but it is GL
[05:17:03] <Thetawaves> well no lockups this run using tkemc
[05:17:10] <pfred1> there see
[05:17:20] <Thetawaves> btw
[05:17:21] <pfred1> it was just as I suspectes
[05:17:23] <Thetawaves> my machine file was .ini
[05:17:40] <Thetawaves> and my greps for display went unanswered because it was DISPLAY =
[05:17:42] <Thetawaves> :)
[05:17:52] <pfred1> always grep -i
[05:18:15] <pfred1> anywho now you have to try changing your GL libs
[05:18:39] <pfred1> see if software rendering clears your issue up
[05:18:50] <pfred1> it should
[05:18:57] <pfred1> well, it might
[05:19:20] <pfred1> if it doesn't you're hosed let's just put it that way
[05:19:28] <Thetawaves> not being able to install openssh-server because it depends on the 3rd build of openssh-client when i have the 4th installed
[05:19:34] <Thetawaves> pretty much spells doom for this install
[05:19:42] <Thetawaves> i'll probably install debian on it
[05:19:48] <pfred1> I run debian
[05:19:54] <pfred1> hey want my notes how to do it?
[05:20:04] <Thetawaves> sure
[05:20:12] <pfred1> I'd have to say the entire build is rather non-trivial
[05:20:51] <pfred1> http://pastebin.com/cYYqyKPX
[05:21:07] <pfred1> oh junk that's right I did it on Lenny
[05:21:16] <pfred1> can you still even install Lenny today?
[05:21:36] <pfred1> I know Lenny recently passed into EOL
[05:21:41] <Thetawaves> i like how you start off with removing network-manager and avahi
[05:21:43] <Thetawaves> lol
[05:21:52] <pfred1> well
[05:21:56] <pfred1> I'm a purist
[05:22:04] <pfred1> if things don't work I tend to avoid them
[05:22:22] <Thetawaves> i have a different philosophy
[05:22:33] <Thetawaves> i try to work within the normal methods and practices for the distribution
[05:22:57] <Thetawaves> i don't like when applets fight hand entered values into configuration files
[05:22:57] <pfred1> I been running Linux too long to think anything like that
[05:23:31] <pfred1> that is what chattr is for :)
[05:23:58] <pfred1> set the immutable bit on a file
[05:24:41] * pfred1 don't play when it comes to UNIX
[05:24:50] <pfred1> root God what's the difference?
[05:25:10] <Thetawaves> unix is pretty insecure
[05:25:17] <Thetawaves> in that respect
[05:26:00] <pfred1> yeah i like the total control aspect of it all though
[05:27:24] <pfred1> banging EMC into Debian is a nice display of it too ;)
[05:28:48] <Thetawaves> i'm thinking slackware
[05:29:20] <pfred1> I like debian's package manager though I haven't run slack in about 10 years now
[05:29:27] <Thetawaves> i ran slackware for many years, i think it'll work well for a system with such a defined task
[05:29:35] <pfred1> so I really don't know what they're doing today
[05:30:00] <pfred1> I ran slack from 3.0 to the end of 7
[05:30:13] <pfred1> that was enough for me
[05:30:25] <Thetawaves> i ran from slackware 7 - 12.1
[05:30:33] <pfred1> I started on 8 but I was like I've had enough of this
[05:30:56] <pfred1> then you missed out on Redhat 7.3
[05:31:07] <pfred1> which was probably the greatest Linux distro of all time
[05:31:50] <pfred1> they invented up2date
[05:32:15] <pfred1> man that was sweet!
[05:32:44] <Thetawaves> lol
[05:32:49] <Thetawaves> redhat was a disaster
[05:32:53] <pfred1> hey after running slack
[05:33:06] <pfred1> not 7.1 to 7.3
[05:33:21] <pfred1> everyone and their dog was running it back then
[05:33:50] <pfred1> right up until they only let you have one system registered for free
[05:34:18] <pfred1> that was the death knell
[05:34:28] <pfred1> but before that it couldn't be beat!
[05:34:29] <Thetawaves> i was always quite afraid of rpms
[05:34:49] <pfred1> well that was their high water mark then it all just worked
[05:35:26] <pfred1> but redhat themselves trashed it all
[05:35:54] <pfred1> I guess for bilions i might have done the same though
[05:36:29] <pfred1> at one point Linus was worth over 20 million in stock RH gave him
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[05:36:46] <pfred1> he should have sold
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[05:42:58] <Thetawaves> 20million!
[05:44:14] <pfred1> not a bad pay day if he'd have cashed in
[05:46:53] <Thetawaves> i wonder what the latest kernel rtai runs on
[05:47:39] <pfred1> what'd I build it against 2.6.35?
[05:47:54] <pfred1> should be new enough for whatever hardware you have
[05:48:35] <pfred1> I have a box upstairs with a 945 GPU in it and it runs on the same kernel
[05:52:17] <Thetawaves> is what you have
[05:52:29] <pfred1> ah
[05:52:41] <pfred1> yes might not work then
[05:53:15] <pfred1> though with that systme was X that was the issue not the kernel itself
[05:53:34] <pfred1> I htink whatever Lenny came with stock was in fact new enough for that GPU
[05:56:05] <Thetawaves> i just don't want to run any old linux
[05:56:38] <pfred1> and what you want matters why?
[05:57:10] <Thetawaves> what's the point in running an end of life linux? getting newer software is usually a bitch
[05:57:21] <Thetawaves> this openssh-server issue is a perfect example
[05:57:24] <pfred1> because it works?
[05:57:35] <Thetawaves> that's the problem, it doesn't
[05:57:50] <pfred1> well I set it all up some time ago now maybe since then they've released something new
[05:57:56] <pfred1> it works here
[05:58:06] <Thetawaves> right, that's when it works
[05:58:26] <Thetawaves> you set it up and don't need to make any real changes
[05:58:35] <pfred1> I don't?
[05:58:52] <Thetawaves> after you've got the system setup?
[05:59:21] <pfred1> in case you're unaware I had to make a few changes in order to do that
[06:00:16] <Thetawaves> i think ubuntu just sucks
[06:00:17] <pfred1> why can't you get rid of the ssh and just install the one you want?
[06:00:32] <Thetawaves> and the package manager gets conflicts very easy on slightly older releases
[06:00:33] <pfred1> well that is why I set it up to work on Debian
[06:00:57] <pfred1> ubuntu makes me queasy
[06:02:57] <Thetawaves> this is mostly the reason i appreciated slackware... no complex package manager to get conflicted
[06:02:59] <pfred1> but I have to say I'm not completely enamored with the latest version of Debian
[06:03:14] <pfred1> oh package management rules
[06:03:36] <pfred1> having to deal with every dependency by hand is a nightmare
[06:03:50] <pfred1> been there, done that!
[06:03:58] <Thetawaves> results in a much more stable system
[06:04:01] <Thetawaves> in my opinion
[06:04:33] <pfred1> well then you obviously think you are more talented than thousands of experts
[06:05:08] <Thetawaves> are you sure?
[06:05:17] <psha> pfred1: +1
[06:05:31] <pfred1> I'm good but I'm suffering from no illusions
[06:06:06] <psha> already been there, debian based package system is very good and provides much batter results then trying to handle each dep by hand
[06:06:17] <pfred1> nah man I've dealt with Linux long enough to know it is more than I want to deal with
[06:06:25] <Thetawaves> slackware has always had a reputation for being more stable and reliable than debian.
[06:06:30] <psha> but as any instrument you have to know how to work with it to get fine results
[06:07:04] <psha> what is 'stable'?
[06:07:14] <pfred1> I don't know if slack has a rep for being more stable than Debian more static possibly
[06:07:44] <Thetawaves> once you setup slackware, it will run forever
[06:08:03] <Thetawaves> the security updates are very thoroughly tested
[06:08:08] <pfred1> what Linux dostro won't?
[06:08:15] <Thetawaves> and software is not unnecessarily updated
[06:08:38] <Thetawaves> except on major releases of course
[06:08:41] <pfred1> I ran suse once for 8 years until thecaps let go on the mobo then popped that HDD out slapped it into a new system and it still ran!
[06:09:41] <pfred1> it was kind of a good thing that system blew up on me or I'd still be running it
[06:10:33] <pfred1> but when I moved it to a new system I wanted to update some parts of it and by hten it simply wasn't possible
[06:11:29] <pfred1> in that time SuSE had changed to SUSE and actually changed hands so I don't blame them for dropping support
[06:11:47] <pfred1> it was time to move on ...
[06:12:17] <pfred1> Thetawaves I been running Linux for about twice as long as you have so ah
[06:12:29] <pfred1> just who do you think you're fooling?
[06:12:47] <pfred1> I was done with slack before you even ran it
[06:12:53] <psha> Thetawaves: same you may say about debian
[06:13:18] <psha> security and *-updates are tested and there is no much packages
[06:13:20] <Thetawaves> i had conflict with the tex library in debian
[06:13:25] <psha> you may even drop *-updates repo
[06:13:29] <pfred1> debian's package manager is the single most widely used piece of software associated with Linux behind the kernel itself
[06:13:33] <Thetawaves> a tex library*
[06:13:40] <psha> if you have conflicts then you are trying to install it from invalid repo
[06:13:50] <Thetawaves> what
[06:13:55] <psha> if you are stuck with stable release then it won't happen
[06:14:07] <Thetawaves> it has happened to me
[06:14:20] <Thetawaves> on etch
[06:15:07] <pfred1> Thetawaves you ever try to build tex from source?
[06:15:11] <psha> with etch repository and etch install?
[06:15:36] <Thetawaves> psha, yep
[06:15:45] <Thetawaves> pfred1, i've heard horror stories
[06:15:58] <pfred1> yeah tex is some pretty involved stuff
[06:16:10] <pfred1> I mean like those with IQs under 200 need not apply
[06:16:35] * pfred1 misses the mark by about 5 points
[06:16:49] <pfred1> and it makes me feel like a monkey!
[06:17:16] <pfred1> so it comes as no surprise to me that you might have run into a glitch or two there
[06:17:22] <psha> Thetawaves: i'm upgrading tex (from tetex to texlive to ...) on system starting from woody and don't remember any serious difficulties...
[06:17:54] <pfred1> psha really delve into tex it is like particle physics
[06:18:25] <pfred1> it is pretty much made by physicists for physicists
[06:18:45] <pfred1> the stuff is brutal!
[06:18:53] <psha> not trivial yea )
[06:19:12] <psha> dealing with it for a long time and still confused by some parts...
[06:19:25] <pfred1> donald is way out there
[06:20:17] <pfred1> I'm not saying debian is perfect but it does a beter job than I am willing to do today
[06:20:37] <pfred1> the little snags I can deal with better than if I was to try to go it alone
[06:21:22] <pfred1> I juggled slack deps for years and it was a full time job
[06:21:25] <Thetawaves> slackware provides a good base system with all that stuff... then i would setup all my cnc stuff... and then the system would just work
[06:21:38] <Thetawaves> until i rebuild the whole system in two years using the latest release of slackware
[06:21:51] <pfred1> why would you do that?
[06:22:01] <pfred1> once it works it works
[06:22:24] <Thetawaves> yeahhhhh
[06:22:34] <Thetawaves> maybe there will be 'new' software available by then
[06:23:08] <pfred1> there is new software available today don't mean I'm running right out to get it though
[06:23:17] <Thetawaves> i guess i'm trolling
[06:23:24] <Thetawaves> because i already downloaded the debian iso
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[06:23:30] <Thetawaves> :)
[06:23:38] <pfred1> I got done chasing the latest and the greatest a long time ago
[06:23:43] <pfred1> get tiring
[06:24:25] <pfred1> honestly I liked Linux years ago and I'm not too thrilled about every new change i see
[06:24:45] <pfred1> grub2 sux
[06:25:04] <pfred1> I see no advantage to it for me at all
[06:25:26] <Thetawaves> dude... have you ever heard of plymouth?
[06:25:31] <Thetawaves> i tried to uninstall it
[06:25:41] <pfred1> it is like a dodge for poor folks isn't it?
[06:25:47] <Thetawaves> apt-get wanted me to say "Yes, do as I say!"
[06:25:49] <Thetawaves> exactly
[06:26:00] <Thetawaves> because it would have uninstalled everything
[06:26:31] <Thetawaves> it is just the boot up splash screen!
[06:26:34] <Thetawaves> i couldn't believe it
[06:27:23] <pfred1> did you file a bug report?
[06:28:41] <Thetawaves> lol
[06:28:50] <pfred1> what is funny?
[06:28:50] <Thetawaves> ruddy ubuntu
[06:29:34] <Thetawaves> ubuntu people don't want to know about how difficult it is to uninstall their gui candy
[06:29:47] <Thetawaves> they would be like bug -- closed (bug filer is a sucker)
[06:30:05] <pfred1> so you're saying that you didn't then?
[06:30:13] <Thetawaves> nope
[06:30:20] <pfred1> OK then don't complain
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[06:47:35] <AitalMAC> With EMC can i in some way store the time a machine has been working?
[06:48:12] <psha> working = uptime or working = tool is moving?
[06:49:02] <pfred1> AitalMAC you can preface any command with time
[06:49:37] <pfred1> time - run programs and summarize system resource usage
[06:49:57] <pfred1> man time
[06:52:31] * pfred1 has run Linux a little too long ...
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[07:02:47] <pfred1> to figure out how much a machine moves a step you multiply steps per rev by lead by microstepping mode then take that number and divide it into 1 right?
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[07:04:33] * pfred1 needs looser leads
[07:04:57] <pfred1> 0.00000625 a step seems a tad excessive to me
[07:05:37] <AitalMAC> Just how many hours the spindle has turn for example
[07:06:49] <AitalMAC> i think that if machine moves rapidly it does not count as the machine working, for a plasma it would be how long time you keep the fire on
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[07:08:11] <AitalMAC> The interpreter can calculate an approximate time for a G-Code to complete?
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[07:12:04] <AitalMAC> I could get time component to go on with the spindle, is the time saved somewhere?
[07:13:41] <psha> no, you must save it somewhere yourself
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[08:08:08] <DJ9DJ> moin
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[11:00:59] <Rogue_> hi
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[11:16:51] * jthornton has big bubbles and lots of foam this morning
[11:31:46] <jthornton> with a 50,000ns base period how fast can you count pulses from an encoder?
[11:39:10] <Mjolinor> it is sunday morning, that is certainly a tuesday calculation, its the only time the brain is working suffuciently well
[11:40:25] <jthornton> at least your brain works well enough to calculate that on Tuesday :)
[11:43:07] <jthornton> ok, an easy question how many ticks of the base period is needed to count a pulse?
[11:50:52] <Mjolinor> not easy enough, things like "what is the temperature outside" or " is the sun shining" are suitable questions for sunday morning
[11:53:14] <jthornton> ok, when will my Hefeweizen be done with primary fermentation?
[11:58:10] <alex_joni> jthornton: 1/50.000ns = 20kHz
[11:58:22] <alex_joni> that means you want about half to be reliable
[11:58:27] <alex_joni> so about 10kHz
[11:58:38] <alex_joni> on a 1024 encoder that's about 10 turns/second
[11:58:49] <alex_joni> but as Mjolinor said, it's sunday here ;)
[11:59:27] <Mjolinor> so it being sunday please calculate the probability that the above iinformation is incorrect
[12:00:28] <alex_joni> it's 7 to 1
[12:00:33] <jthornton> but it is Sunday at lunch for you Alex
[12:01:32] <jthornton> so to be reliable you need two ticks of the base thread per pulse?
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[12:49:45] <Loetmichel> mornin'
[12:50:07] <Mjolinor> does anyone hsere use PCB. I cannot get a drill mask fomr the goddam thing
[13:21:04] <mazafaka> morning
[13:22:25] <mazafaka> we were cutting the frame of the motorcycle and weld it with my buddy. So the second motorcycle is about to appear.
[13:22:51] <jthornton> cool
[13:24:59] <mazafaka> And then, I will finish the walls' finishing and order an airbrush, invite another buddy to create a shop of airbrushing
[13:27:06] <mazafaka> I want to buy a JAS 1119 airbrush
[13:54:45] <mrsun> hmm, 20mA max out on V+ pin ...
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[14:49:51] <mrsun> hmm, opamps, this one says Vcc and Vcc+ .... it can be run as single supply, would i connect Vcc to gnd or Vcc+ to gnd? :P
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[14:58:16] <archivist> mrsun, /me would read the datasheet for example connections, but sounds wrong
[15:12:03] <mrsun> archivist, there is no example connections in the datasheet
[15:12:19] <mrsun> on the other package type they have they have named them Vcc+ and GND
[15:12:25] <mrsun> but on DIP8 its Vcc and Vcc+
[15:13:01] <mrsun> ahh there, in another datasheet i found its called Vcc- and Vcc+
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[15:23:41] <jthornton> http://imagebin.org/200890
[15:26:10] <mrsun> something good brewing? :)
[15:30:18] <jthornton> Hefeweizen
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[15:30:51] <Mjolinor> OMG, they mated and made a little one :o
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[15:37:41] <jthornton> yea, all over the floor of the fermentation chamber\
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[17:14:24] <A2Sheds> will that be beer or whiskey someday?
[17:14:40] <JT-Shop> BEER
[17:15:20] <JT-Shop> technically it is beer today with a very high SG...
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[17:48:07] <anonimas1> does anyone have clue of feeds and speeds of copper
[17:48:19] <anonimas1> err for..
[17:48:22] <anonimas1> a 2mm drill...
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[17:50:12] <anonimas1> Tom_L: got any clue how to drill copper successfully?
[17:52:45] <Tom_itx> haha
[17:52:51] <Tom_itx> sharp tools
[17:53:01] <Tom_itx> it's crap to machine
[17:53:25] <anonimas1> 297 holes in a piece -_-
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[17:57:11] <Tom_L> anonimas1
[17:57:40] <Tom_L> this says .008 chip load for mills
[17:58:41] <JT-Shop> eww copper
[17:59:05] <Tom_L> brinell A: 271 B: 64.3 C: 28 , tensile strength 129 1000's psi
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[17:59:36] <JT-Shop> copper alloy or soft copper?
[17:59:46] <Tom_L> slab: .007, face: .010, endmill: .008 chip load
[18:00:27] <Tom_L> surface speed: HSS 120-170 carbide: 400-500
[18:00:29] <anonimas1> soft copper
[18:00:32] <Tom_L> power factor 1.5
[18:00:36] <syyl_ws> i would outsource the job ;)
[18:00:39] <JT-Shop> my book show similar FPT to aluminum but 1/2 the SFM
[18:00:44] <anonimas1> im the outsource...
[18:00:47] <anonimas1> :p
[18:00:49] <syyl_ws> oh
[18:00:49] <Tom_L> syyl_ws, anonimas1's not like that :)
[18:01:12] <Tom_L> sounds like fairly constant feed/speed
[18:01:27] <syyl_ws> how deep are the holes?
[18:01:31] <Tom_L> it's just real stringy to machine and a general PITA
[18:01:31] <anonimas1> 10mm
[18:01:41] <anonimas1> I think im feeding too slow.
[18:01:54] <Tom_L> those are the numbers from my drill chart
[18:02:09] <Tom_L> for copper / bronze
[18:02:27] <anonimas1> 5k rpm and 660mm/min
[18:02:30] <anonimas1> about there.
[18:02:50] <syyl_ws> hm doesnt sound to wrong
[18:02:58] <anonimas1> im feeding too slow, but the drills are breaking
[18:03:02] <syyl_ws> would go for a bit higher feed
[18:03:10] <anonimas1> im off by a factor of 10 too slow.
[18:03:13] <syyl_ws> flood lubrication?
[18:03:14] <Tom_L> try some tap lube too
[18:03:18] <anonimas1> yes.
[18:03:18] <Tom_L> that works wonders
[18:03:19] <anonimas1> -_-
[18:04:44] <syyl_ws> i have often copper parts to machine at work
[18:05:03] <syyl_ws> but never such small holes...
[18:05:12] <syyl_ws> but its still a pitty to machine ;)
[18:05:36] <anonimas1> we'll see soon. im going to go try it later..
[18:05:52] <Tom_L> laser?
[18:06:01] <syyl_ws> 10mm deep in copper?
[18:06:01] <syyl_ws> Oo
[18:06:05] <Tom_L> heh
[18:06:30] <anonimas1> hehe
[18:06:53] <syyl_ws> maybe shoot the holes with a canon trough.. ;)
[18:07:44] <anonimas1> hehe, it should work. period, it's been done before on shittier machines
[18:07:45] <anonimas1> :)
[18:07:57] <Tom_L> it's probably grabbing the cutter
[18:08:18] <anonimas1> at 75mm/min and 5k rpm?
[18:08:59] <anonimas1> and flood coolant..
[18:09:04] <anonimas1> bbl we'll see what happens.
[18:13:06] <anonimas1> thanks for the help!
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[18:14:31] <Tom_L> anonimas1,
[18:14:41] <Tom_L> if all else fails try the tap lube
[18:14:51] <Tom_L> it may help some
[18:16:08] <syyl_ws> old day machinists used milk...
[18:16:14] <syyl_ws> some day i will try it
[18:16:24] <syyl_ws> but only if theres on one else in the shop...
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[18:16:34] <Tom_L> :)
[18:16:36] <syyl_ws> "watch...now he is completely crazy..."
[18:16:39] <IchGuckLive> B)
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[18:21:35] <Loetmichel> milk WILL work... but only if direct from the farmer, not the watered down stuff wirth 3,5% fat.
[18:21:59] <Loetmichel> AND you shoud be sure that NOTHING of it can pour into the coolant tank.
[18:22:07] <Loetmichel> BIG stink after a few days!
[18:22:41] <Tom_L> high butterfat content makes sense
[18:24:31] <DJ9DJ> hrhr
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[18:35:37] <JT-Shop> I use dish washing liquid for ally, wonder if it works for copper too
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[18:39:48] <IchGuckLive> copper is best to cut on EDM or a realy sharp tool
[18:40:41] <Tom_itx> anybody ever try tools that were cryo frozen?
[18:41:39] <IchGuckLive> in University to mill in to carbon
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[18:44:53] <IchGuckLive> http://www.retsch.com/products/milling/mixer-mills/cryomill/
[18:51:20] <IchGuckLive> happy milling by and Gn8
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[19:05:59] <elmo40> this April is another LTS release. I cant believe its been 2 years since 10.04
[19:06:17] <elmo40> Any plans on making a liveCD using it?
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[19:17:21] <Mjolinor> solved the problem I had with the drill mask for export from PCB. It seems that if you do not have any copper on the bottom of the PCB then "export gcode" will only give you the top copper layer adn no drill mask
[19:17:39] <Mjolinor> not sure if that is a bug or not as there doesn't seem to be any documentation on it
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[19:24:38] <pcw_home> elmo40: I think there are RTAI issues with the new 3.2 kernel in 12.04 lts
[19:34:09] <elmo40> that can be a problem.
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[20:21:34] <anonimas1> heh, looks like I have a tool quality issue
[20:21:36] <anonimas1> -_-
[20:21:41] <anonimas1> didnt work with thoose feeds..
[20:21:56] <JT-Shop> as in gummed up and broke?
[20:22:06] <anonimas1> no as in explosively broke on contact
[20:22:15] <anonimas1> and the other one lasted 70 holes..
[20:22:23] <anonimas1> then explosion..
[20:23:15] <JT-Shop> ouch
[20:23:27] <anonimas1> i cant even narrow it down by feed/speed
[20:23:40] <anonimas1> since I tried less/more from the point where it should be
[20:24:04] <JT-Shop> it could be the material too
[20:24:20] <anonimas1> my previous with wrong feed/speed did the sam
[20:24:21] <anonimas1> e
[20:24:31] <anonimas1> 4mm deep and it / to the side and broke
[20:24:52] <Tom_itx> maybe it's workhardening
[20:25:27] <syyl__> ah right
[20:25:27] <anonimas1> in random spots?
[20:25:28] <syyl__> the tool
[20:25:40] <syyl__> try a ground drill
[20:25:43] <syyl__> not a rolled one
[20:25:45] <anonimas1> my cam program sorts them by shortest path, so they arent even in vincinity..
[20:26:03] <anonimas1> not all the time, ie, zig zag around..
[20:26:18] <anonimas1> it happened in random spots in the piece..
[20:26:31] <anonimas1> (force starting a new hole in random spot)
[20:27:06] <Tom_itx> does it wander from the get go?
[20:27:10] <anonimas1> no
[20:27:11] <Tom_itx> are you drilling a spot first?
[20:27:41] <anonimas1> no
[20:28:01] <anonimas1> the first holes i did i checked for wandering and it dosent do that at all
[20:28:13] <mrsun> hmm, why is the pwm inverted when i run the spindle CCW ? :/
[20:28:14] <Tom_itx> mmm
[20:28:39] <anonimas1> if they wandered they would kill the holes around since it's a matrix of holes
[20:28:44] <anonimas1> err it..
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[20:28:55] <mrsun> got a pin 16 as spindle pwm, pin 1 as spindle cw (works fine) and pin 14 as spindle ccw (does not work as pressing + for speed or doing m4 s1000 lowers the voltage fromt he pwm to 0)
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[20:31:35] <mrsun> oh loadrt pwmgen output_type=1 aparently fixes that
[20:32:11] <mrsun> noo
[20:32:24] <mrsun> output_type 1 aparently is pwm/dir
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[20:34:06] <anonimas1> im suspicious about the material since i got that provided..
[20:34:31] <Tom_itx> got a hardness tester?
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[20:35:01] <anonimas1> no
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[20:44:45] <mrsun> setting output_type to 1 did not helpo
[20:46:27] <mrsun> hmm, does anti clockwise rotation input negative numbers ?
[20:55:36] <mrsun> shouldnt it be like M3 S1000 would set Parport pin CW high, and pwm from 0 - 100%, if M4 S1000 it should be Parport Pin CCW high and pwm from 0 - 100% ?
[20:55:43] <mrsun> why is the pwm inverted as it seems? :/
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[20:55:48] <mrsun> or not working at all
[20:55:52] <mrsun> as i cant rev up the spindle at all in ccw
[20:55:59] <mrsun> it just idles at a very low speed
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[20:57:47] <pcw_home> do you have a CW and CCW input on the VFD?
[21:00:30] <mrsun> ahh M4 aparently sets the speed to negative value
[21:00:39] <mrsun> so M4 S1000 would be equal to -1000
[21:00:49] <mrsun> pcw_home, yes, two inputs
[21:00:54] <mrsun> one for CW and one for CCW
[21:01:18] <mrsun> found a log where alex_joni said that the spindle stuff need to be connected to some abs singal thingie
[21:01:22] <mrsun> to make it positive even for M4
[21:01:28] <pcw_home> so do you take the PWM DIR and invert it to drive CCW
[21:01:34] <pcw_home> ?
[21:02:10] <mrsun> pcw_home, got two pins on the parport to make it CW or CCW
[21:02:15] <pcw_home> It looks like the PWMGEN comp should do that (it must use negative inputs in mode 1)
[21:02:16] <mrsun> as the vfd needs seperate inputs
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[21:02:51] <mrsun> so got P1 to CW input on VFD, P14 to CCW on VFD and P16 as PWM for vfd (0 - 10.5V)
[21:03:03] <pcw_home> so you have your mode 1 PWMGEN wired so DIR goes to CW and inverted DIR goes to CCW?
[21:03:55] <mrsun> [20:35:18] <alex_joni> net spindle-cmd <= motion.spindle-speed-out => abs.0.in
[21:03:56] <mrsun> [20:35:32] <alex_joni> net spindle-abs-cmd <= abs.0.out => pwmgen.0.value
[21:04:07] <mrsun> pcw_home, no mode 0 atm
[21:04:16] <mrsun> tried the mode 1 thingie as someone had written on the forums that that worked
[21:04:18] <pcw_home> Mode 1 of the PWMGEN makes no sense if it does not do the ABS inside
[21:04:52] <pcw_home> (the manual could be clearer on this)
[21:07:09] <mrsun> will try that abs trick tomorrow
[21:07:15] <mrsun> atm i feel like im going to die ... :P
[21:07:28] <JT-Shop> pcw_home: which manual?
[21:07:40] <pcw_home> pwmgen
[21:08:17] <pcw_home> I can see that ABS is needed in mode 0 but should be done internally in mode 1
[21:08:39] <pcw_home> (otherwise mode 1 is useless)
[21:09:03] <JT-Shop> just reading it now
[21:09:26] <JT-Shop> so mode 1 only adds the direction output?
[21:10:51] <JT-Shop> I see hint I think "The duty cycle on the PWM pin is based on the absolute value of the command, so negative values are acceptable."
[21:11:25] <pcw_home> If mode 1 actually works for negative inputs it need to output DIR based on the input sign
[21:11:27] <pcw_home> _and_ PWM proportional to the _absolute value_ of the input
[21:13:57] <pcw_home> maybe I'm looking at an older version
[21:14:25] <JT-Shop> unfortunately I can only try and explain how it works in the manual, however I would agree with your explanation of how it should work.
[21:14:34] <JT-Shop> I'm looking at the 2.5 docs
[21:14:35] <pcw_home> and that hint only applies to mode 1
[21:14:51] <JT-Shop> http://linuxcnc.org/docview/2.5/html/hal/rtcomps.html#_pwmgen_a_id_sec_pwmgen_a
[21:14:53] <JT-Shop> yes
[21:15:41] <pcw_home> OK thats better (is that the same as the man page?)
[21:16:30] <mrsun> so type 1 should work ?
[21:16:34] <mrsun> but where do i throw the dir pin ?
[21:16:37] <mrsun> i dont want it =)
[21:17:07] <pcw_home> Yes but you need to drive CW from DIR and CCW from inverted DIR
[21:17:27] <mrsun> umm and how would i do that then :/
[21:17:41] <pcw_home> (better still would be to gate these with an internal enable)
[21:18:14] <mrsun> pcw_home, but will it ever be able to stop then ?
[21:18:25] <mrsun> as no signal on CW and no signal on CCW equals stop for the VFD
[21:18:43] <pcw_home> Thats why you want the gate I mentioned
[21:18:47] <mrsun> using cw and inverted for ccw it would never have two open contacts
[21:19:06] <mrsun> pcw_home, but wouldnt the abs trick work as well ?
[21:19:10] <mrsun> and alot easier to implement? :)
[21:20:05] <JT-Shop> no the man page is different :/
[21:20:13] <pcw_home> maybe, do you already have signals to drive CW and CCW ?
[21:21:00] <mrsun> pcw_home, yes its all connected up
[21:21:22] <mrsun> and working both clockwise and counter clockwise tho ccw i cant rev the spindle any higher then like 5hz
[21:21:34] <mrsun> due to the negative output for the pwm
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[21:21:41] <mrsun> (so doing + makes the pwm signal 0)
[21:21:42] <pcw_home> OK yeah then the mode0/abs should work (or mode 1 and dont connect dir)
[21:22:11] <mrsun> tried the output_type=1 but it behaved the same way
[21:23:12] <pcw_home> Are you saying that if you feed a negative number to pwmgen in mode 1 that it output is 0? if so thats a bug
[21:23:54] <mrsun> pcw_home, seems like it
[21:24:01] <mrsun> as it behaves the exact same way as type=0
[21:24:37] <pcw_home> can you check the actual PWM output after a setp fullscale+ and fullscale -?
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[21:25:10] <mrsun> pcw_home, not atm but i can try and check tomorrow, you mean with halscope or ?
[21:27:53] <pcw_home> Just measuring the output voltage ought to be close enough
[21:29:10] <mrsun> ok =)
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[22:00:51] <DJ9DJ> gn8
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[22:12:22] <Loetmichel> *uuuups* ...
[22:12:41] * Loetmichel collects the workpiece from across the room...
[22:13:51] <Loetmichel> planing aluminium with a 6mm 2flute TC bit @ 16000 rpm and 800mm/min 1mm deep was a BIT much... Cyancacrylate glue melted-> workpiece gon flying ;-)
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[22:53:33] <elmo40> anonimas1: i just came in here, what are you drilling, what size, what speeds/feeds are you trying?
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[22:55:22] <anonimas1> copper, 5k rpm and 600mm/min
[22:55:30] <anonimas1> 2mm drill
[22:57:11] <elmo40> 5,000 rpm? wow. that is high, even for 2mm drill
[22:58:43] <anonimas1> mhm, got a better idea for the speed?
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[23:09:53] <elmo40> carbide tool?
[23:10:30] <elmo40> drilling? what is your point angle?
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[23:11:23] <elmo40> http://www.busbymetals.com/docs/mach_page09.htm
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[23:12:43] <elmo40> http://www.cuttingtoolexpress.com/html/speeds_and_feeds_-_drilling.html
[23:12:57] <elmo40> slow speeds for copper.
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