#linuxcnc | Logs for 2012-01-20

[16:21:11] -!- logger[psha] [logger[psha]!~loggerpsh@] has joined #linuxcnc
[16:21:16] <servant742> thnks syyl_ws & bill20r3
[16:21:55] <sirHOAX> are you using them?
[16:22:10] <FinboySlick> http://www.thrift-king.com/intel-desktop-board-d945gclf2-with-integrated-intel-atom-processor-motherboard-mini-itx-micro-atx-intel-atom-330-i945gc-1-6-ghz-retail.html <-- It's what's given me the best results so far.
[16:23:02] <FinboySlick> get the best pc4200 ram you can find for it, it'll take other/faster ram, but getting low timing ram of that speed gave me an extra boost.
[16:24:33] <sirHOAX> nice. compact set-up.
[16:24:43] <sirHOAX> using an older dell tower
[16:24:46] <sirHOAX> p4 for now.
[16:25:01] <FinboySlick> sirHOAX: Be sure to disable hyperthreading in bios for your test with that.
[16:25:12] <FinboySlick> sirHOAX: Some of them have pretty good results though.
[16:25:22] <sirHOAX> k. tnx.
[16:25:36] <FinboySlick> sirHOAX: disable anything you don't plan to use.
[16:25:39] <FinboySlick> sound card, etc.
[16:25:44] <FinboySlick> in bios.
[16:26:12] <FinboySlick> if you don't have USB hardware connected to it, disable that too, it can help a fair bit in some cases.
[16:26:34] <FinboySlick> sirHOAX: On one of my boxes, the sata controller was terrible, but using IDE gave me great results.
[16:27:09] <sirHOAX> hopefully today can start testing the software. will have to download the live-cd and have at it.
[16:27:26] <FinboySlick> OK good luck, and welcome to EMC :)
[16:27:40] <sirHOAX> or is it on the standard iso for download. same option to live boot the cd or install w/ubuntu
[16:27:54] <sirHOAX> may of downloaded it already
[16:28:11] <sirHOAX> let me burn it
[16:28:45] <FinboySlick> sirHOAX: Well, it has to be the emc-specific ubuntu livecd. It will both run a live distro and install to disk, you're given a choice as it starts up.
[16:28:57] <sirHOAX> k. thought so.
[16:29:10] <sirHOAX> nice feature :)
[16:29:36] <FinboySlick> Having to do a full install just to test hardware that might not work would be quite a pain in the butt.
[16:30:12] <sirHOAX> ubuntu-10.04-linuxcnc1-i386.iso
[16:31:10] <sirHOAX> no please no more pains, the learning curve on this thing, plus the frustrations w/throwing it gcode and calibration is enough for anyone :)
[16:31:36] <sirHOAX> just trying to get it to do a .57" exact mill was hours of fun.
[16:32:32] <FinboySlick> sirHOAX: You using a parallel port?
[16:32:37] <sirHOAX> yes sir
[16:34:14] <FinboySlick> It'll be pretty straightforward. First you get a good latency test to figure out your max jitter. Then you run stepconf wizard to define what pin does what and the characteristics for each axis. There's some values you might want to dig out for your driver timings.
[16:34:31] <skunkworks> FinboySlick: I have tested a lot of hardware with emc - I have only had one or 2 motherboards I could not get to work. (other than laptops)
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[16:35:20] <skunkworks> an old hp and an compaq that just would not get any lower than about 50k latency
[16:35:36] -!- e-ndy has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
[16:35:37] <skunkworks> I did have to apply the smi patch to a few..
[16:36:59] <sirHOAX> well i'm more than willing to change hardware. as long as its stable :-)
[16:37:14] <sirHOAX> have an old pIII board here i have been saving.
[16:37:17] <sirHOAX> might come in handy.
[16:37:20] <skunkworks> I have not had emc crash on me.
[16:37:22] <FinboySlick> sirHOAX: Then keep an eye on that link I gave you.
[16:37:23] <skunkworks> ever
[16:37:34] <sirHOAX> k. will do.
[16:38:18] <sirHOAX> have a ubuntu up right now feeding video
[16:38:23] <sirHOAX> stable +1
[16:38:28] <sirHOAX> minimal install.
[16:38:31] <skunkworks> I have had the web browser crash on me while I has machining.. linuxcnc kept right on going.
[16:38:54] <skunkworks> sirHOAX: what kind of machine are you running?
[16:39:12] <sirHOAX> k2cnc. w/a cheap *.cn controller found on ebay.
[16:39:26] <sirHOAX> kt2514 to be exact.
[16:39:37] <skunkworks> I think there are a lot of threads on cnczone on those controllers..
[16:39:44] <bill20r3> is it a "LQQK! TB6560 4-AXIS CNC!" controller?
[16:39:45] <sirHOAX> only XYZ atm no A axis
[16:39:51] <skunkworks> might be to do some searchin on there...
[16:40:20] <sirHOAX> well shouldn't say cheap it was $100usd
[16:40:39] <sirHOAX> but it maybe considered cheap next to better boards.
[16:41:09] <bill20r3> I have one of those. do your motors hiss crazy-loud?
[16:41:37] <bill20r3> I changed out an osc cap and it quieted it way down, it's even almost usable.
[16:41:39] <sirHOAX> heh. they make some noises idle. nothing that loud tho.
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[16:42:45] * FinboySlick has to learn electronics... He wouldn't be able to figure out which cap to change on a misbehaving board ;)
[16:42:45] <sirHOAX> have a kellyware controller also. worked w/kcam but not mach3
[16:42:58] <sirHOAX> only reason i bought the *.cn controller was for the mach3 support
[16:43:09] <sirHOAX> but again, proved unworthy software.
[16:51:08] <Loetmichel> FinboySlick: electronics is simple. Logic even.
[16:52:46] <Loetmichel> the cheap chinese TB65XX Controllers are not bad for the money... low voltage but thats ok if you dont want to go really fast.
[16:56:07] <mrsun> started scraping the freakin dovetail .... sigh its a small place to be scraping in but atleast it gets better and better =)
[16:56:15] <mrsun> the scraping job wont be my best thought ...
[17:02:59] <Farthen> FinboySlick: the problem of electronics is definitely not the theoretical part. :)
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[17:03:07] <sirHOAX> Loetmichel, yea noticed that later on can only do 24VDC max.
[17:03:17] <sirHOAX> running mine 12v ATM.
[17:03:25] <sirHOAX> gets the job done.
[17:03:35] <sirHOAX> heh. shame it can't do 48VDC. :[
[17:03:44] -!- vladimirek [vladimirek!~vladimire@] has joined #linuxcnc
[17:04:14] <Farthen> FinboySlick: it is more like the "i am sure i can fix this, give me a minute" problem. i for myself ended up with a big pile of fried hardware over time :P
[17:04:20] <MattyXP> Loetmichel they go faster if you bypass the optos
[17:06:14] <MattyXP> the stepping rate is severely limited with them, and they do nothing for you as there's a buffer before them anyway
[17:06:46] <sirHOAX> think i'm getting 18IPM out of that board @ 12VDC in. give or take a few.
[17:07:13] <sirHOAX> nothing crazy. but it works.
[17:08:09] <MattyXP> I switched from 1/2 step to 1/16 and totally wrecked my top speed, so it's either my board or the PC
[17:09:56] <sirHOAX> your saying w/the bypass?
[17:10:06] <MattyXP> with 1/2 step on all axis, I could get the motors somewhere in between 200 and 300 rpm. I thought that was as good as it gets on 12V but I think it'll be better with optos bypassed
[17:10:21] <MattyXP> no not done the bypass yet
[17:10:30] <MattyXP> many people have tho
[17:10:42] <MattyXP> in the thread on cnczone about them
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[17:11:25] <MattyXP> the first 100 posts were about cleaning up the signals after the optos, but then someone twigged the optos weren't helping at all
[17:12:03] <sirHOAX> most boards do not make use of optocouplers. never see them used.
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[17:12:29] <bill20r3> this one doesn't make use of them either, apparently
[17:12:41] <MattyXP> the dongguang aerospace boards have them, but v poorly implemented
[17:15:13] <sirHOAX> well most boards they are non-existant.
[17:15:48] <sirHOAX> http://www.stepgenie.com/DemoBoard.jpg
[17:16:51] <MattyXP> that doesn't look like TB6560 :)
[17:17:35] <sirHOAX> heh. :p
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[17:20:53] <MattyXP> I used mine for a year without realising there was anything wrong with it. I blamed the 12V for the lack of speed, and the ATX smps for the noise
[17:22:00] <MattyXP> I'm just about to try yanking the optos
[17:22:10] <MattyXP> I'll report back in 30
[17:23:33] <mrsun> seconds?
[17:23:34] <mrsun> minutes?
[17:23:35] <mrsun> hours?
[17:23:37] <mrsun> days?
[17:23:38] <mrsun> years?
[17:23:40] <mrsun> ;P
[17:30:17] <MattyXP> non-specific duration units
[17:30:33] <Tom_itx> so is #emc officially closed now?
[17:31:54] <Tom_itx> i gather it is since jepler did a blanket kick there
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[17:35:36] <MattyCNC> how did pidgin know to redirect here?
[17:35:49] <MattyCNC> nm, don't care
[17:35:54] <Tom_itx> the channel did a redirect
[17:36:03] <Tom_itx> emc was forwarded
[17:36:12] <MattyCNC> excellent
[17:36:36] <Tom_itx> don't rely on that though
[17:42:13] <MattyCNC> I 'd like to know which clever person at velleman thought 5 rechargable AA was a good idea
[17:42:28] <MattyCNC> my charger only does pairs
[17:43:17] <MattyCNC> meh screw the scope. speed test is all that counts
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[17:47:00] <alex4nder-> ner
[17:51:28] <mrsun> hmm, maybe go scrape some more...
[17:55:08] <Jymmm> Oh noes.... #emc is no more
[17:56:08] <Jymmm> MattyCNC: 1.2V * 5 = 6V
[17:56:20] <Jymmm> MattyCNC: so what device you talkin bout?
[17:58:39] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: Yes, is closed but I broke in! Muhahahaha
[17:59:32] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: So grab your spray paint and sledge hammers and we can just trash the place!!!
[17:59:56] -!- IchGucksLive [IchGucksLive!~chatzilla@95-89-244-199-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #linuxcnc
[18:00:10] <IchGucksLive> Hi all around the globe
[18:00:23] <Jymmm> hi
[18:00:54] <MattyMatt> Jymmm Velleman 10Mhz handheld scope
[18:01:00] <MattyMatt> it's a toy
[18:01:12] <Jymmm> MattyCNC: probably needs the 6V then
[18:01:13] <MattyMatt> ghastly screen
[18:01:42] <MattyMatt> DC input is 9V, they coulda used 6x AA instead :)
[18:01:48] <IchGucksLive> is there a Documentation how to drive a H-brige throu emc
[18:02:20] <MattyMatt> with one pin or 2?
[18:02:22] <Jymmm> MattyCNC: 9v adapter was probably cheaper than 6v
[18:02:36] <IchGucksLive> 2 pin Dir PWM
[18:03:19] <IchGucksLive> what about brake H-brige have 4 state
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[18:06:08] <skunkworks> IchGucksLive: I have done pwm+pwm..
[18:06:19] <skunkworks> (2 pins)
[18:06:31] <sirHOAX> nice. emc works. livecd. +1
[18:06:49] <skunkworks> 1 pwm pin for cw and 1 pwm pin for ccw
[18:06:55] <sirHOAX> buhbye mach3. hello stability.
[18:07:29] * Jymmm graffiti's the walls in #emc
[18:07:51] <IchGucksLive> skunkworks: do you got a sketch for this i want to use BUZ11
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[18:08:38] <sirHOAX> going to try to run this off a compact flash drive.
[18:09:17] <skunkworks> buz11?
[18:10:08] <IchGucksLive> skunkworks: the Mosfeets to drive a DC brushless at 24V
[18:12:01] <MattyXP> brushless? I thought you needed at least 3 half-bridges for that
[18:13:44] <IchGucksLive> it only has 2 cables so 1 Full H-brige
[18:15:10] <skunkworks> that doesn't make sense
[18:15:16] <MattyXP> probably not brushless then
[18:15:49] <IchGucksLive> 3557k024cs Motor
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[18:16:31] <IchGucksLive> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen exactly the same
[18:16:34] <FinboySlick> sirHOAX: watch for useless writes and have a backup ready.
[18:16:50] <FinboySlick> CF aren't the most durable of storage devices.
[18:17:54] <sirHOAX> not sure these are for embedded industrial applications.
[18:18:40] <sirHOAX> >6,000,000 hours.
[18:19:20] <sirHOAX> its not a standard camera compact flash. from what i understand.
[18:19:41] <FinboySlick> sirHOAX: I think it has more to do with the number of writes... But yeah, industrial cards are a lot better. They do some wear leveling too so the more extra space you have the better.
[18:21:53] <MattyMatt> IchGucksLive, it's brushed DC
[18:22:45] <MattyMatt> so H-bridge is correct at least :) config I know nothing about tho
[18:23:48] <sirHOAX> FinboySlick, yea just can't have a swap space. ;-q
[18:24:35] <IchGucksLive> thanks
[18:25:34] <sirHOAX> Endurance > 5,000,000 program/erase cycles
[18:27:03] <Jymmm> 5M ?! For a CF/SD?! I seriously doubt that
[18:27:36] <sirHOAX> heh. take it up with the manufacturer spec sheet. ;-)
[18:28:13] <Jymmm> what brand?
[18:28:49] <sirHOAX> http://www.advantech.com/products/SQF-P10/mod_61913DA4-CC76-490C-8B06-6DF13B5EE7E4.aspx
[18:29:15] <sirHOAX> its only 2gig.
[18:29:23] <sirHOAX> have to squeeze it on there. :-q
[18:30:01] <Jymmm> never heard of them
[18:30:20] <Jymmm> and never will either!
[18:30:32] <Jymmm> 5M write cycles my ass!
[18:30:56] <sirHOAX> k.
[18:31:37] <Jymmm> Just make sure you do a backup frequently, rsync is your friend.
[18:31:54] <Jymmm> you can even backup to another cf card
[18:32:06] <FinboySlick> 2gigs is going to be tight as a shrink fit tool holder.
[18:33:04] <sirHOAX> minimal install. install only necessary packages for emc.
[18:33:12] <sirHOAX> aptitude/apt-get
[18:33:53] <sirHOAX> what are you guys looking at in terms of space w/the cd-iso installed?
[18:34:11] <Jymmm> 2.000000000000000000000000000000001 GB
[18:34:51] * sirHOAX waunders off.
[18:37:13] <IchGucksLive> http://members.shaw.ca/swstuff/dspic-servo.html im going with this
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[19:01:30] <MattyMatt> mrsun. looks like 30 hours is closest. too tired to rig up lights to see the job now. trying to read the thread again sapped my energy
[19:02:58] <FinboySlick> MattyMatt: What were you doing?
[19:03:15] <MattyMatt> modding chinese 4 axis tb6560
[19:03:37] <MattyMatt> the simple way, bypassing the optos completely
[19:06:55] <IchGucksLive> MattyMatt: i got 5 of the 5Axis and modified it
[19:07:11] <IchGucksLive> the 3axis 24 boards run now for almost 2 years
[19:07:38] <IchGucksLive> Fr307 -> UFD5404
[19:07:49] <IchGucksLive> Factor 100
[19:08:00] <IchGucksLive> at 15 Euros
[19:08:29] <IchGucksLive> and also you need to put some wirers on to get more power over the board
[19:09:48] <MattyMatt> Dongguan Aerospace HY-TB4DV-M to give it its correct name
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[19:10:31] <Connor> New channel ?
[19:11:02] <IchGucksLive> Connor: yes B)
[19:11:23] <MattyMatt> yep, the EMC² lawyers jumped on it. emc2 is now called linuxcnc
[19:11:54] <MattyMatt> at least the domain matches now :)
[19:12:07] <Connor> oh good grief.
[19:13:43] <MattyMatt> IchGucksLive, yep I like this board, but I don't know any better. it drives steppers OK, that was enough
[19:14:32] <MattyMatt> it was the reprap people who first told me it was crap
[19:15:48] <MattyMatt> and http://www.cnczone.com/forums/general_electronics_discussion/110986-how_i_fixed_my_chinese.html told me why
[19:16:11] <MattyMatt> warning, that thread takes hours to read
[19:16:38] <IchGucksLive> for my steppers i got 100 in use it is perfect for larger ones i woudt go to Leadshine M542
[19:17:06] <IchGucksLive> http://www.robotshop.com/eu/3d-printers-rapid-prototyping-machines.html
[19:17:40] <IchGucksLive> the 5Axis is in there
[19:18:12] <IchGucksLive> modified with 0.3mm copper stripes
[19:18:32] <IchGucksLive> i got 0.7 Round isoladed copper wirer and it runs
[19:19:11] <IchGucksLive> since Diodes Changed no burnup anymore eaven at 3.5A on 5 sync steppers
[19:19:24] <MattyMatt> the copper isn't the problem on mine, it's the circuit design
[19:19:51] <IchGucksLive> the emc supports all pins
[19:20:07] <IchGucksLive> im not happy with this also
[19:20:34] <IchGucksLive> the main axis are not on the Dataports
[19:20:52] <MattyMatt> is yours the 5 axis on one board? they also do a breakout + 5 boards which looks a bit better
[19:21:08] <IchGucksLive> one board
[19:21:15] <MattyMatt> but $20 more, and I was being tight when I bought mine :)
[19:21:22] <IchGucksLive> i will give you a picture one moment
[19:21:36] <MattyMatt> yeah I've seen them. I live on ebay
[19:24:32] <IchGucksLive> http://www.pictureupload.de/originals/pictures/200112202418_5axis.jpg
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[19:28:21] <mrsun> hmm, what is the accepted standard for dovetail hmm whats it called, rocking back and forth :po
[19:28:35] <sirHOAX> if i would of knew the problems with these *.cn boards, would of steered clear of them alltogther.
[19:28:50] <IchGucksLive> MattyMatt: http://www.pictureupload.de/originals/pictures/200112202822_5axis-box.jpg fits the box well
[19:28:51] <mrsun> about 1dm out from the sadle the table rocks about 0.1mm ....
[19:28:53] <sirHOAX> potential went with stepperworld's controllers
[19:29:00] <mrsun> that would make about 0.05mm over 100mm i think
[19:29:06] <sirHOAX> http://www.stepperworld.com/fet3.htm
[19:29:18] <sirHOAX> could even build your own board relatively easy.
[19:30:30] <sirHOAX> they also have a 4axis.
[19:30:59] <IchGucksLive> 175Dollars
[19:31:17] <IchGucksLive> tiny thing
[19:31:28] <IchGucksLive> no headsink
[19:31:44] <IchGucksLive> oh i need to go by for today
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[19:32:30] <sirHOAX> Each of the 12 Power MOSFETS on this board can dissipate up to 80 watts of power. Because they are not mounted to heat sinks you won't be able to squeeze quite that much power out of them, however, this configuration should be more than adequate for any reasonable stepper application. (A typical 100 oz in stepper only draws about 10 watts per phase.)
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[19:41:16] <mrsun> for the setscrews for a dovetail thingie, is round tip or pointy tip better? :)
[19:42:11] <DaViruz> gib strips are better!
[19:42:18] <mrsun> gib strips ? :)
[19:42:31] <DaViruz> taperd gib strips that is
[19:42:45] <DaViruz> the adjustable portion of the dovetail
[19:42:45] <mrsun> DaViruz, duh ...
[19:42:58] <mrsun> yes i know what a gib is and its the set screw for those i was thinking :P
[19:43:10] <mrsun> dont have the means to try and make tapered gibs realy :P
[19:43:29] <DaViruz> :(
[19:45:56] <mrsun> if i had a dovetail cutter i guess i could convert it to have tapered gib but ...
[19:46:09] <mrsun> feels like alot of work for a machine i hate so much i wanna just throw it on the scrapheap
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[19:48:33] <MattyMatt> mrsun I think the same angle as the dovetail is correct
[19:48:45] <MattyMatt> iirc that's what my old lathe has
[19:48:48] <mrsun> MattyCNC, so pointy with same angle as dovetail then ? :)
[19:48:54] <MattyMatt> yep
[19:49:07] <Connor> okay, so, how in the world can EMC2 say anything about EMC ?
[19:49:16] <mrsun> or maybe make a pin that the set screw presses on ? :P
[19:49:30] <MattyMatt> that would be ideal yeah
[19:49:39] <mrsun> tiny pinns tho :P
[19:50:13] <MattyMatt> what material is the gib?
[19:50:38] <MattyMatt> whatever it is, the biggest contact is probably best
[19:51:38] <MattyMatt> I'm planning 1 or 2mm ptfe gibs in wooden dovetails for the $2 lathe :)
[19:52:06] <MattyMatt> that stuff creeps
[19:53:57] Tom_L is now known as Tom_itx
[19:54:25] <MattyMatt> cast iron is 9 times stiffer than wood, so afaics a 6x6" wooden bed will be as good as a 2x2" iron one
[19:54:54] <MattyMatt> ignoring hardness and abrasion issues
[19:55:08] <mrsun> MattyMatt, the current one is steel, hand ground by some chinease kid ... 1mm undersized or what i should call it
[19:55:26] <mrsun> gap is about 3.6 - 3.7mm, gib is 2.8mm thick
[19:56:04] <MattyMatt> I'd still use pointy screws to maximise the contact area
[19:57:09] <Connor> okay, so, how in the world can EMC2 say anything about EMC ?
[19:57:26] <mrsun> http://i43.tinypic.com/a3nwqf.png it presses on the gib like that, and that is quite a problem :P
[19:57:41] <mrsun> solved that with a piece of paper at the top of the gib on the backside of it temporarily :P
[19:57:43] <MattyMatt> I thought the gib was supposed to be slightly softer than the ways, so it gets most of the wear
[19:57:58] <MattyMatt> on my lathe their bronze
[19:58:02] <MattyMatt> they're
[19:59:37] <mrsun> yeah, im gonna change them but hard to find 3.5mm bronze or brass so i would have to modify a 4mm or stick a .5mm shim behind a 3mm :P
[19:59:39] <MattyMatt> ouch. could you drill new holes for the setscrews which are better centred on the slope of the table part?
[20:00:04] <mrsun> MattyMatt, i guess i could do that, just move them a couple of milli to the sides =)
[20:00:32] <mrsun> only problem is the locking nuts for the screws
[20:00:52] <MattyMatt> 1/8" = 3.175mm. buy your bronze from The Empire
[20:01:57] <MattyMatt> not perfect, but better than 2.8mm :)
[20:02:18] <mrsun> MattyMatt, so damn long wait to get it here :P
[20:02:52] <mrsun> i just wish i had a bigger mill and i would build my own mini mill, tho dont know what i need a mini mill for if i got a big one :P
[20:04:15] <MattyMatt> I've got an answer to that dilemma. make a really large but cheap one out of scaffold & concrete, and use that to make a better quality but smaller one
[20:04:52] <MattyMatt> that's actually a plan for a lathe, but I guess it works for mills too
[20:05:17] <mrsun> MattyMatt, haha :P
[20:05:51] <mrsun> i can make quite big alu castings tho :P but still will have to have a mill to make a mill :P
[20:05:53] <mrsun> or a shaper
[20:06:18] <MattyMatt> or a scraper and some patience :)
[20:07:30] <mrsun> MattyMatt, hmm, might be true still making stuff like dovetails etc without a machine ... yish ...
[20:07:50] <mrsun> i guess for small parts i could use the lathe as a mill :P
[20:07:56] <MattyMatt> my plan didn't quite work. I made my mill big & cheap, but it's not quite good enough to make one better and smaller
[20:08:50] <MattyMatt> or it wasn't, I've added more wood to the structure, hopefully I can mill alu now
[20:09:40] <mrsun> http://lh5.ggpht.com/_ozT1G3WqXg4/TUqsPuzQqeI/AAAAAAAALKM/HweM0rgDKQU/s800/gib.jpg pointy tip it seems it is :P
[20:10:33] <MattyMatt> cool
[20:10:41] <MattyMatt> nice to confirm that
[20:10:44] <A2Sheds> I've only opened a played with a file in HeeksCAD, does openscad have more or less features? (I usually run NX, proe, SW etc)
[20:10:58] <mrsun> maybe make a gingery shaper =)
[20:11:29] <MattyMatt> openscad is not a graphical modeller, it's a programming language
[20:12:45] <MattyMatt> it's like the scripting language you find in most CAD, without the CAD :) (except for the output window)
[20:12:55] <A2Sheds> ah ok
[20:14:21] <MattyMatt> I'm a bit skeptical whether it's better than python scripting in a real cad/3d package
[20:14:38] <MattyMatt> in fact a lot skeptical
[20:14:59] <MattyMatt> but the #reprap peeps sure like it so I'm persevering for a while
[20:15:47] <MattyMatt> it's the de facto standard for reprap parametric parts
[20:17:26] <MattyMatt> afaics it will die when there's a good python lib that wraps into blender, heeks and freecad
[20:18:20] <MattyMatt> it should die because it output STLs so broken it can't even import them itself
[20:20:00] <MattyMatt> cross-platform on blender means a script that works on 2.43 AND 2.44
[20:21:07] <MattyMatt> actually 2.43 to 2.49 was the golden age of blender API stability
[20:21:38] <MattyMatt> that's why so many ppl still use 2.49
[20:24:25] <MattyMatt> the last time I ran HeeksCAD, it was nowhere near blender for basic modelling funcs
[20:25:29] <MattyMatt> freecad is the only one that makes me consider abandoning blender for CAD
[20:26:19] <MattyMatt> but then I start wondering whether it's be better to copy freecads features into blender :)
[20:27:11] <Loetmichel> sirHOAX/ MattyXP: i have grilled one of the china boards lately
[20:27:16] <Loetmichel> by accident
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[20:28:27] <MattyMatt> shorting the motor output doesn't count :) that thread had loads of posts that went "I blew 2 channels by miswiring. stupid chinese people, I'm buying geckos"
[20:28:51] <syyl_ws> dont the geckos burn of pretty easy too?
[20:28:54] <Loetmichel> result: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=12554
[20:29:23] <MattyMatt> syyl_ws, dunno, I can't afford to destruct test any geckos :)
[20:29:31] <syyl_ws> ;)
[20:29:51] <MattyMatt> I've heard they are a bit tougher than single chip drivers tho
[20:29:57] <Loetmichel> btw: the china boards can do 36V, not only 24
[20:30:07] <syyl_ws> mrsun? i took out the scraper today, too
[20:30:12] <syyl_ws> my victim is a vice :D
[20:30:17] <MattyMatt> I've been told not to go over 30V on them
[20:30:18] <Loetmichel> but thats the hard limit of the chips, any volt higher and http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=12554 ;-)
[20:30:37] <syyl_ws> ok, good to know
[20:30:52] <mrsun> syyl_ws, nice that im not alone in this insanity =)
[20:30:57] <syyl_ws> ;)
[20:31:02] <syyl_ws> it was 2/100mm off
[20:31:09] <sirHOAX> yea well. haven't burnt my board out yet. accidentally put it in a closed case with little to no ventilation. soon realizing that it was getting extremely hot
[20:31:30] <sirHOAX> almost killed it. but later raised the enclosure to let air in.
[20:31:33] <syyl_ws> now i am down to 5/1000...
[20:31:57] <sirHOAX> for now its doing its job.
[20:32:05] <sirHOAX> but higher speeds. might as well just get another set-up.
[20:32:24] <sirHOAX> it doesn't look like it will get 120IPM
[20:32:39] <sirHOAX> mine is doing 18IPM if i'm lucky.
[20:32:46] <sirHOAX> and not sure if that is even accurate.
[20:33:07] <sirHOAX> motors stall like crazy with this card.
[20:34:03] <MattyMatt> the chips are OK I think, up to their 3.5A at ~30V max
[20:34:23] <sirHOAX> yea may get a 30+ VDC adjustable power supply
[20:34:31] <sirHOAX> see if i can get more IPM out of this set-up
[20:34:35] <sirHOAX> hopefully that helps
[20:34:47] <MattyMatt> I'll make discrete drivers next. I have some 5 phase motors already
[20:35:05] <sirHOAX> yea looking to do the A axis
[20:35:09] <sirHOAX> should be fun.
[20:35:31] <sirHOAX> do some cylindrical designs.
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[20:39:04] <MattyMatt> gears and toothed pulleys is what I use my 4th for
[20:40:02] <MattyMatt> it's a nema17 in the vice :)
[20:40:26] <MattyMatt> no chuck. I bore the workpiece first and fit a setscrew
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[20:43:13] <Loetmichel> MattyMatt: the tb6560 can cope with op to 40V. (absolute maximum). One should look for other components on the board (SPSU-cuip for 5V, Electrolytics)... if all is clear i would reccomend to stay below 38V supply for the motors 'cause so you have 2 Volts Headriim for spikes
[20:46:17] <sirHOAX> kewl. nice that you can make your own parts. ;-)
[20:46:19] <sirHOAX> http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/444/dsc02988u.jpg
[20:46:24] <sirHOAX> something i did recent testing.
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[20:46:39] <sirHOAX> trying to calibrate.
[20:46:50] <Loetmichel> sirHOAX: lost foam casting?
[20:46:53] <Loetmichel> ;-)
[20:47:16] <sirHOAX> heh. you've done it before?
[20:47:28] <Loetmichel> yes
[20:47:52] <Loetmichel> but in smaller size
[20:48:57] <MattyMatt> Loetmichel, one problem with the 5V is that it should be stable before Vmot is applied, or else the half-bridge drivers may not be ready to prevent crossover
[20:49:12] <Loetmichel> made some rings and jewelery teeth-silver
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[20:49:18] <Loetmichel> + out of
[20:49:38] <Loetmichel> MattyMatt: that is no real problem
[20:49:48] <sliptonic_shop> I'm having trouble getting axis (emc 2.4.6) to recognize a .axisrc file. Any obvious reasons why it would be ignored?
[20:50:17] <Loetmichel> 'cause the mormal Buck-regulators are starting when the main voltage is at about 6V
[20:50:34] <Loetmichel> so when the Vmot reaches 38V the 5V are stable
[20:50:56] <MattyMatt> so a slow rising Vmot is best? big fat cap?
[20:51:02] <Loetmichel> .... IF there are enough capacitors on the Vmot
[20:51:21] <Rogge> Anyone using the class browser plugin for gedit to make writing python code a little easier?
[20:51:35] <MattyMatt> this HY-TB4DV-M has one big electro per chip
[20:52:34] <MattyMatt> cool that's saved me the cost of an SSR
[20:53:11] <MattyMatt> actually if I'm ever rich enough to fix stuff before it breaks, I'll buy geckos myself :)
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[20:55:49] <MattyMatt> hi andy
[20:56:29] <andypugh> Hi
[20:57:14] <andypugh> Just made a boring bar exactly the right length for what I think the big-end bearings are. I hope I am correct...
[20:57:23] <Loetmichel> MattyMatt: my CNC runs of an old Eospn Needle printer PSU at the moment
[20:57:35] <andypugh> Otherwise I have made it exactly the wrong length.
[20:57:43] <Loetmichel> 5V 2A and 32V 2,5A... fits like a glove ;-)
[20:57:49] <Loetmichel> epson
[20:58:35] <Loetmichel> ... and we have about 100 laying around in the company no longer needed ;-)
[20:59:49] <MattyMatt> I just extracted a 36V from a Microline 92A. I wouldn't have touched it if it was an Epson. they still have drivers and ribbons available
[21:00:05] <andypugh> I think it would be hard to beat this for a stepper machine: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260927741558#ht_500wt_1213
[21:00:42] <andypugh> 10A 50V plus 12, 25 and 5.
[21:00:59] <MattyMatt> sweeeeet
[21:01:42] <MattyMatt> I've made my bed tho. I've got this 9A 25V which I recently realised will come out close to 35V DC
[21:02:28] <MattyMatt> I always thought 240V mains was peak to peak not RMS
[21:02:28] <andypugh> But does it have a handle?
[21:02:36] <ds3> it should be RMS
[21:02:45] <ds3> since 120V is RMS
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[21:03:19] <andypugh> PCW: How much trouble would it be to make a SVSS4_6_7i39? ie 4x encoders and PWMs on P2, 7i39 on P3 and 8xSSLBP on P4 ?
[21:03:21] <MattyMatt> I beleive it is, and so the 25V output is also RMS, so it'll be sailing close to exploding volts on TB6560
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[21:03:45] <andypugh> TB6560 don't need an excuse to explode.
[21:03:55] <ds3> 120V is H to G. 240V is usually H to H
[21:04:14] <andypugh> ds3: UK. We have manly mains electric.
[21:04:18] <PCW> andypugh: Not hard (5I23 only though wont fit in a 5I20)
[21:04:24] <ds3> now if you are using a cheater setup using a single phase of a 3PH setup
[21:04:31] <andypugh> Aye, 5i23 is what I have.
[21:04:43] <ds3> andypugh: ah... is both sides hot in the UK?
[21:04:56] <andypugh> No, neutral hovers a few volts from ground.
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[21:05:13] <MattyMatt> 3ph is 415V
[21:05:17] <andypugh> It hurts if you touch the live, but not the neutral.
[21:05:56] <PCW> I can make such a config but it will have to wait till next week
[21:06:00] <A2Sheds> what if the neutral is not grounded?
[21:06:15] <MattyMatt> more like 400V now, they are winding it down while the german 220V is winding up. 20 years from now they'll be the same
[21:07:04] <andypugh> PCW: No desperate rush.
[21:07:10] <MattyMatt> my actual measured here is 235V but it's nominal 230V
[21:07:26] <andypugh> I won't need it until I have the mill running with the 8i20s, and thats a way off yet.
[21:09:51] <MattyMatt> arrgh my boot has worn through. I hope boots haven't doubled in price like hdd
[21:10:08] <MattyMatt> or else I'll be skint again real soon
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[21:10:22] <jstenback> Congratulations!
[21:10:34] <jstenback> er, wrong window, ignore me
[21:10:45] <MattyMatt> thank you anyway :)
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[21:18:23] <andypugh> MattyMatt: CNC-mill a cobbler's last, then study "How it's made" until you can figure out how to make your own boots?
[21:23:29] <MattyMatt> or I'll patch up the hole with sanitary silicone
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[21:24:11] <MattyMatt> seems to have worked on my previous pair. I'll switch back to them for now
[21:25:33] <MattyMatt> cheap asda boots both pairs. good uppers but the soles wear out, like Clarks Polyveldts I used to wear at school on account of my huge flat feet
[21:26:40] <MattyMatt> swimming and shot putt champ, but sicknote for all others
[21:27:04] * MattyMatt shoulda been a copper
[21:27:05] <Loetmichel> andypugh: "you are no hobbist until you catch yourself making a tool to make a tool to build a rig to mill something which pourpose is long forgotten"?
[21:28:19] <MattyMatt> you might just be an unfocused pro :)
[21:29:15] <MattyMatt> I do stuff the hard way only if I think I'll learn something. I'm training myself to be a pro, hopefully
[21:30:32] <MattyMatt> one day my time will be far too valuable to make tools
[21:31:42] <andypugh> Loetmichel: I often think that when writing a driver for hardware I don't intend to use, linked to a software package that I using to make parts for a CNC machine using the CNC machine I built to make a clock. I started years ago, and still haven't made a single clock part...
[21:31:42] <jdhNC> then you can make your own motors!
[21:32:09] <andypugh> Oh, yes, I am making my own motors too, I forgot that.
[21:32:22] <MattyMatt> I'm planning that too :)
[21:32:36] <MattyMatt> 9 phase steppers with 3MT bore
[21:33:03] <bill20r3> You're making your own motors? you can do that?
[21:33:06] <bill20r3> crazy
[21:33:50] <MattyMatt> that's what Mrs Vexta said
[21:34:06] <bill20r3> heh.
[21:34:11] <andypugh> bill20r3: Yes, it isn't even all that hard: https://picasaweb.google.com/108164504656404380542/Gibbs#5682019142697919810
[21:34:12] <bill20r3> Geek humor
[21:34:44] <bill20r3> andy, do you mean re-winding stators like the rc-nerds do?
[21:34:52] <andypugh> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEI6TBwydqs&list=UUexvgsGz_QFvOublovDYoTQ&index=2&feature=plcp
[21:35:15] <bill20r3> awesomepants
[21:35:20] <andypugh> No, made from scratch: https://picasaweb.google.com/108164504656404380542/Gibbs#5679037859998520482
[21:36:16] <MattyMatt> I can't understande why large-bore motors aren't readily available. they seem quite useful for allsorts, but mostly as instant spindles
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[21:37:35] <bill20r3> Matty, I recently bought one of those pauljones spindles, it's ok.
[21:37:42] <bill20r3> better than the proxxon I was using.
[21:38:10] <MattyMatt> I got 2 of those ER16 on 8mm shafts
[21:39:16] <MattyMatt> and I have abec 5 608s
[21:39:58] <FinboySlick> andypugh: I hadn't seen it spin yet. That's pretty awesome.
[21:39:58] <MattyMatt> and a 1/2 hp motor off an old pendant drill I'd forgotten about until just now
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[21:40:22] <andypugh> FinboySlick: It runs a lot better than that now, it was running open-loop there.
[21:40:50] <FinboySlick> andypugh: So this is to be a servo?
[21:41:07] <andypugh> Yes, I am waiting for the encoder board.
[21:42:01] <FinboySlick> From the proportions it looks like you might get some decent torque out of it.
[21:42:38] <FinboySlick> Did you mill each layer of the core individually as in the pic, or did you end up ganging them together?
[21:43:15] <MattyMatt> waterjet would be the biz if you were making a few
[21:43:57] <andypugh> Yes, I could have had them waterjetted commercially, but it was going to be expensive.
[21:44:14] <andypugh> FinboySlick: I did them in pairs, and punched the central hole.
[21:44:49] <MattyMatt> commercially = sufficient excuse to buy one >:)
[21:46:13] <bill20r3> does anyone have strong opinions on a emc2 driven reprap?
[21:46:13] <FinboySlick> I want a bigger workshop and time to play with all the toys I'd put in it :P
[21:46:13] <MattyMatt> I had trouble pinning down a price for one. I found the whole machine in china for $100k
[21:46:13] <bill20r3> I'm pondering one, with a hardware pid controller for the heater.
[21:46:54] <MattyMatt> I put a parport on my arduino, so I can switch easily
[21:46:59] <bill20r3> clever.
[21:48:35] <MattyMatt> my latest thinkpad was cheaper than the arduino, so that's my next emc2 machine
[21:48:45] <bill20r3> totally.
[21:49:13] <bill20r3> I hate all the vertex blobs & such caused by crappy trajectory planning.
[21:49:15] <MattyMatt> it lacks a few keycaps but is otherwise healthy
[21:49:21] <bill20r3> & am generally sick of firmware issues.
[21:49:45] <MattyMatt> the new arm firmwares are looking nice
[21:50:06] <bill20r3> perhaps. I'm not keen on supporting casinho.
[21:50:17] <MattyMatt> but when you can get a 2Ghz thinkpad on ebay for £20, why bother?
[21:50:43] <bill20r3> yeah, totally. a cheap pc + cheap tb6560 board is about as much as an arduino mega + ramps
[21:50:47] <MattyMatt> it's only arrogance if you're not right :) 750mm/s says he's right
[21:51:02] <bill20r3> if someone could devise a clean solution for temp monitoring, it'd be all win.
[21:51:15] <bill20r3> I take issue with his idiot-rampage of last summer.
[21:51:28] <bill20r3> but that's neither here nor there.
[21:51:35] <MattyMatt> yeah he was a total dick on several occasions and on the record
[21:52:07] <MattyMatt> it was actually him that first ran a reprap on emc2 :)
[21:52:29] <bill20r3> I've seen.
[21:52:35] <bill20r3> dunno if he was "first", but so few have actually done it.(and posted anything..)
[21:53:17] <MattyMatt> triffid_hunter tried iirc, but the TB6560 let him down, probably the opto issue
[21:53:18] <bill20r3> anyway, I'm going to skip all the complex part by just using hardware PID
[21:53:36] <MattyMatt> for the heaters?
[21:53:38] <bill20r3> I wonder if there's a simple parallel-to-pololu board design.
[21:53:41] <bill20r3> yeah, pid for the heaters
[21:54:02] <andypugh> Surely EMC2 can handle software heater PID?
[21:54:24] <bill20r3> It certainly can, it's the analog-in part that I'd struggle with.
[21:54:25] <andypugh> And then you might be able to add precontrol on filament feed, so.
[21:54:27] <MattyMatt> if emc2 can use the sound card a/d it could
[21:54:31] <bill20r3> actaully reading the temps..
[21:54:56] <andypugh> I did suggest a way to do analogue-in to EMC2, but it was derided.
[21:55:21] <MattyMatt> 555 pwm?
[21:55:23] <bill20r3> can you explain it in a nutshell?
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[21:55:38] <bill20r3> temp-to-pulse? then configure it like a spindle?
[21:55:51] <andypugh> The idea is to use a PWM output and a comparator. You know the PWM output value when the comparator switches.... For extra fun the PWM could track rather than ramp
[21:56:09] <MattyMatt> that's the old joystick port
[21:56:11] <bill20r3> can emc2 read pwm signal width?
[21:56:43] <bill20r3> I've only seen docs for reading pulse-timings
[21:56:53] <andypugh> Reading PWM is tricky. Even the Pros struggle (lots of buggy PWM readers have held me back at work this year)
[21:57:12] <MattyMatt> why not the sound inputs? if they are ac coupled the caps could be hacked out
[21:57:21] <andypugh> But there is no need to read the PWM, as it originates in HAL.
[21:57:47] <andypugh> Yeah, sound card ought to work. And generally they are not AC coupled.
[21:57:53] <bill20r3> Also, I'm limited by not having a mesa card, I want to just use parallel port.
[21:58:10] <andypugh> You can do PWM on the parallel port too.
[21:58:16] <MattyMatt> most pc have sound card tho
[21:59:02] <andypugh> Do you know if register-level access is possible? I looked into a it briefly, but it seemed all rather involved.
[21:59:03] <bill20r3> pwm input, to the parallel port?
[21:59:17] <andypugh> bill20r3: No, PWM output from the parallel port.
[22:00:11] <andypugh> The PWM output creates a reference voltage. The comparator switches when the voltages match, so knowing the PWM duty cycle at the switching point tells you the coltage.
[22:00:20] <PCW> A simpler way is just a charge balance A-D
[22:00:22] <PCW> EMC sets or clears output bit based on comparator output
[22:00:24] <PCW> output bit drives RC filter, EMC counts on cycles vs off cycles
[22:00:26] <MattyMatt> you need drivers for the sound chip. you probably have to depend on ALSA
[22:00:26] <PCW> (so variable resolution)
[22:00:29] <bill20r3> but I'd still need to read the temperature in, right?
[22:00:39] <bill20r3> that's the part that boggles me.
[22:01:04] <andypugh> bill20r3: That is what I am describing, a way to use a PWM output to read a voltage input.
[22:01:05] <MattyMatt> ALSA is already the lowest latency that can be achieved afaik
[22:01:29] <MattyMatt> without tying it to a particular sound chip
[22:02:12] <bill20r3> Oh, I see.(I think).
[22:02:51] <andypugh> You need an external RC network and a comparator.
[22:03:02] <bill20r3> so you're pwm'ing a signal out, using a thermocouple with a comparator(so the pwm duty signal varies with the temperature), and then reading the timing on the post-comparitor signal?
[22:03:19] <andypugh> No.
[22:03:37] <bill20r3> then I'm lost. at what point do you actually read a value back into emc2?
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[22:03:53] <MattyMatt> you could keep the arduino for the heaters. there's a HAL driver for that
[22:04:04] <bill20r3> yeah, you could.
[22:04:21] <PCW> charge balance is identical hardware wise but a little simpler and easier to trade off resolution for conversion time
[22:04:27] <bill20r3> although I'd want to move the PID logic on to the pc, where I could actually debug it.
[22:04:36] <andypugh> You send out a PWM with a varying duty cycle. That creates a varying reference voltage to the comparator. When the comparator switches it's p-port pin, you look at what the PWM duty cycle was.
[22:04:41] <MattyMatt> and extra evil, you could use a max6656 and the i2c on the vga
[22:04:42] <bill20r3> but arduino purely for the thermistor might work ok.
[22:04:58] <bill20r3> mattymatt, Do it, I dare you.
[22:04:59] <bill20r3> :-)
[22:05:32] <PCW> take a look at the charge balance scheme it more noise resistant (intergrating)
[22:05:42] <MattyMatt> if I had more than 1 page of the matrox datasheet I would take that up
[22:06:01] <MattyMatt> I had them all on pdf, under NDA, and I lost them :(
[22:06:18] <MattyMatt> I just have one scrappy printed page left
[22:06:28] <bill20r3> i2c is used for lcd monitor EDID detection, right?
[22:06:44] <MattyMatt> and the dds on vga
[22:06:50] <MattyMatt> and hdmi
[22:07:52] <bill20r3> the wikis say "based on i2c"
[22:08:25] <andypugh> PCW: Who are you suggesting "charge balance" to?
[22:08:46] <MattyMatt> it's an 8 pin i2c eeprom in most old monitors
[22:08:54] <andypugh> I was thinking that a PID tracking the switch point would give lower sample times.
[22:09:04] <MattyMatt> the only digital component in crt :)
[22:09:49] <MattyMatt> I'm confident a matrox card could read general purpose i2c
[22:10:03] <MattyMatt> but anyways. no dare
[22:10:12] <andypugh> Apple did it by connecting pins together, then ran out of options, so used resistors, then ran out of options and used diodes. I spent quite a lot of time persuading non-Apple monitors to work with Macs.
[22:10:35] <PCW> You instead of PWM
[22:11:14] <andypugh> I think I need more background...
[22:11:17] <PCW> It has better noise/ aliasing resistance
[22:11:47] <andypugh> googling "charge balance" isn't helping.
[22:12:36] <andypugh> Ah, I might have found it
[22:12:37] <andypugh> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrating_ADC
[22:14:02] <andypugh> Yes, that ought to work easily, and fewer components too.
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[22:14:41] <PCW> so the hardware is exactly the same as your PWM scheme -->
[22:14:43] <PCW> output bit drives RC filter --> RC filter goes to one comparator input
[22:14:45] <PCW> other comparator input goes to analog in, comparator output goes to input bit
[22:14:46] <PCW> but control is different (emc set output bit if comparator says too low other wise clears output bit)
[22:15:05] <bill20r3> DDC/edid hacks, interesting: http://www.paintyourdragon.com/?p=43
[22:15:20] <PCW> then over say 1000 cycles EMC counts number of time bit was on
[22:16:33] <andypugh> One posible advantage of the PWM scheme is that it needs N+1 pins, whereas the integrator needs 2N.
[22:16:49] <andypugh> But for a single channel, that's no different.
[22:19:14] <MattyMatt> 2 channels is usual for a reprap these days
[22:19:20] <MattyMatt> everyone has a heated bed
[22:19:48] <andypugh> Well, I guess they won't have girlfriends.
[22:20:16] <MattyMatt> but I'm thinking of occasional reprapping, mounting an extruder on an existing 3 axis mill
[22:21:43] <MattyMatt> for that, the arduino approach is probably best, so it glosses over whether it's a plastic melter or a paste/syringe extruder and just treats it like a tool
[22:22:45] <MattyMatt> e.g. I want to put a silicone gun on my mill, and use the reprap gcode generator with that
[22:23:56] <andypugh> MattyMatt: Extruding complete boot soles?
[22:23:56] <elmo40> id love to make my own boot soles!
[22:23:58] <MattyMatt> and why not :) people are already printing sandals
[22:24:17] <MattyMatt> they don't look very comfortable tho
[22:24:21] <andypugh> Yeah, with socks pre-installed?
[22:24:38] <MattyMatt> stand on a kinect for a perfect fit
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[22:25:27] <MattyMatt> NHS paid £1300 for a pair of custom insole shoes for a diabetic who never wore them
[22:26:10] <elmo40> MattyMatt: that happens all the time
[22:26:16] <elmo40> tax dollars hard at work...
[22:26:30] <MattyMatt> but then the NHS paid £10bn for a mysql setup
[22:26:41] <elmo40> wow
[22:26:48] <elmo40> billion?
[22:26:50] <elmo40> what?
[22:26:53] <MattyMatt> yep
[22:27:14] <elmo40> well, more then just a mySQL... HOW do they use it. WHAT do they use it for. Is it all encompassing?
[22:27:16] <MattyMatt> and it was never delivered in time to stop the local places sorting their own
[22:27:21] <elmo40> for everything they work with?
[22:27:39] <MattyMatt> it had an obsolete AS-400 email system too
[22:27:50] <elmo40> do libraries charge to borrow a book?
[22:28:01] <EmcPT> After a 'git pull' and after a compile without errors, I now start emc and get quite a long error message, being the first: libnml/os_intf/_shm.c 206: shmget(1004(0x3EC),1024,0) failed: (errno = 2): No such file or directory
[22:28:14] <elmo40> ok, ill correct you there. Obsolete and AS/400 do not belong in the same sentence.
[22:28:19] <EmcPT> any clues?
[22:28:20] <alex4nder-> haha
[22:28:43] <elmo40> prob the most reliable piece of machinery you can get!
[22:28:47] <MattyMatt> I dunno if it was mySQL coulda been oracle or postgre, it wasn't anything special just a health records database
[22:29:24] <andypugh> I don't think I will ever adjust to typing cd linuxcnc-dev/src
[22:29:32] <MattyMatt> pork barrel operation. 10 years of high hog
[22:29:57] <MattyMatt> cancelled completely last year iirc
[22:30:25] * bill20r3 rewires his cpu thermistor all the way out to an extruder.
[22:30:34] <MattyMatt> :)
[22:30:55] <MattyMatt> there's the fan pwm & rpm too
[22:31:09] <bill20r3> oh yeah. there is.
[22:31:27] <bill20r3> pwm is output, rpm is pulse-input, yeah?
[22:31:37] <MattyMatt> they'd be wanted for the reprap fans tho, I guess. modern repraps have at least 2
[22:31:51] <bill20r3> I dont control my fans, they're just on.
[22:31:56] <andypugh> That would work, there is a HAL module for lmsensors
[22:32:13] <bill20r3> reeeeeallly....
[22:32:17] * bill20r3 did not know that.
[22:32:46] <MattyMatt> and, you can get extra fan controllers cheap
[22:33:09] <MattyMatt> I don't think the PC is aware of those tho, they run independently
[22:33:17] <bill20r3> yeah.
[22:33:26] <elmo40> 'just' a health records database... oh boy. there will be thousands of tables and thousands of columns in that table... and prob hundreds of databases for different things.
[22:35:04] <MattyMatt> yeah they did overcomplicate it
[22:35:40] <MattyMatt> single text file and a list of xray images woulda done
[22:35:52] <MattyMatt> per patient
[22:37:05] <MattyMatt> anyway money spent, lessons learned, local authorities have now been given permission to use open source solutions or better value commercial systems
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[22:39:43] <elmo40> good luck on that.
[22:41:12] <MattyMatt> I'd have spent the money on a building as secure as the bank of england, and kept all the records in a vault with all transactions treated to max security. we've already had breaches of the police's DNA database
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[22:43:25] <MattyMatt> if the DNA records were treated with sufficient respect they could have everyone on it without prejudice. at the moment it's just people who've been arrested
[22:43:49] <MattyMatt> so there's an assumption they're privacy isn't as important
[22:44:02] <MattyMatt> their
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[22:44:34] <ds3> a
[22:47:13] <EmcPT> a few lines before I posted that running emc gave a error after compiling the current branch, but now I see that it should be linuxcnc instead of emc ...
[22:47:52] <MattyMatt> and change your nick, trademark abuser :)
[22:51:17] <MattyMatt> will emc be the motor cortex for androids in the future? will it ever work with an arbitrary number of axes?
[22:52:25] <andypugh> MattyMatt: EMC won't, that's for sure.
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[22:53:14] <MattyMatt> yeah gcode for a walk cycle would be complicated
[22:53:14] <Tom_itx> andypugh: linuxcnc
[22:53:46] <andypugh> I was not clear what MattyMatt was asking.
[22:54:14] <andypugh> linuxcnc ought to grow an arbitrary number of joints at some point.
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[22:54:19] <MattyMatt> a machine tool running gcode could run on top of the future universal motion system tho
[22:54:59] <MattyMatt> the HID spec is probably closest to what I'm thinking
[22:55:50] <MattyMatt> they've already got an ID for the motion of your left ankle, for instance. one way only afaik
[22:56:00] <alex4nder-> have you read the HID spec? :(
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[22:56:09] <MattyMatt> parts of it
[22:56:27] <alex4nder-> no android would be walking using it. they'd be too busy jittering due to USB control message transfers.
[22:56:52] <MattyMatt> and actually the Human part is a limit. what about arachnoids?
[22:57:24] -!- acemi has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2]
[22:57:33] <andypugh> They are hiding in their Deepnesses waiting for the sun to start up
[22:59:41] -!- servant741 has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
[22:59:48] <MattyMatt> ah well, just a bit of blue sky bullcrap to brighten up a stormy friday night :)
[23:00:11] <andypugh> Stormy? It's quiet and mild here.
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[23:00:50] <MattyMatt> the germ of the idea was to offload the realtime and motion control part onto the kernel devs
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[23:01:25] <MattyMatt> and then linuxcnc could be just a wrapper over the subset that is machine tools running gcode
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[23:03:49] <andypugh> When can you have it finished?
[23:04:20] <MattyMatt> wishful thinking, like my idea that the only software worth writing is AI, and then let the AI finish everything else :)
[23:04:37] <elmo40> so true
[23:04:48] <elmo40> with restrictions, mind you!
[23:05:25] <MattyMatt> they will recieve direction of course, they'll just be code monkeys
[23:07:48] <sirHOAX> the future processors will be living tissue. ;-)
[23:07:55] <MattyMatt> they/it no need for more than one skynet
[23:08:20] <andypugh> I worked with living tissue for a while. Unlike steel, it goes mouldy.
[23:08:43] <Loetmichel> sirHOAX: i dont think so
[23:08:51] <Loetmichel> living tissue is to weak
[23:09:01] <MattyMatt> living tissue feels to much pain to do a decent job of coding big projects
[23:09:02] <sirHOAX> heh. think they are already working on it.
[23:09:28] <sirHOAX> coding with cells.
[23:09:44] <EmcPT> I am having a difficult time in understanding the toolchange tool call in the gcode for lathes. It is quite normall for me to have tools with several offsets or different tools that ocuppy the same position on the tool changer.
[23:09:45] <MattyMatt> I've seen the rat brain rc car :)
[23:09:52] <sirHOAX> hah. nice
[23:10:25] <EmcPT> For example I use in slot number 1 offset 1 and sometimes offset 13 and sometimes offset 20
[23:10:57] <sirHOAX> think my cells need an upgrade
[23:11:06] <andypugh> EmcPT: G43 H<whatever> lets you apply an offset other than the tool number
[23:11:52] <sirHOAX> can you donate to the emc-project? if i get this thing stable and use it daily.
[23:11:58] <andypugh> But any pocket can take any tool, so you could just have multiple tool numbers for some tools.
[23:12:04] <sirHOAX> er. linuxcnc, didn't see a link on the main page.
[23:12:10] <Loetmichel> but it could have "interesting" results to copy the neuronal net in sillicon i.e. an analog "fuzzy logic" computer with the speed of silicon
[23:12:23] <andypugh> As far as I know we have nowhere to donate to.
[23:12:47] <sirHOAX> k. can't afford anything right now anyway. :-)
[23:13:18] <sirHOAX> on a tight budget. but would like to give something.
[23:13:47] <sirHOAX> no random paypal addresses either .. want a link posted on the site ;)
[23:13:59] <MattyMatt> buy cradek a mesa card or some titanium :)
[23:14:18] <EmcPT> If I call M6 T2 G43H1 I am calling the H1 offset that refers to a particular pocket, that on the tool table only allows for unique use, this is, I cannot have two tool entrys with the same pocket... damm I am confused
[23:14:21] <andypugh> Give time? Do you speak any languages for which there are incomplete translations?
[23:14:35] <sirHOAX> can't say that i do.
[23:15:10] <andypugh> EmcPT: Me too. What you could do is have T2 the same physical tool as T22, but have different offsets.
[23:15:26] <andypugh> Then tell EMC2 that tool22 is in Pocket1
[23:15:45] <andypugh> I don't know if that works, or would do what you want.
[23:16:21] <MattyMatt> sirHOAX, bounties are a good way to combine self-interest and philanthropy
[23:16:26] <EmcPT> I started a few weeks ago... I think ebay will see my mesa cards ...
[23:16:26] <andypugh> I think JT-Shop uses gang-tooling, so has probably been through this?
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[23:17:07] <EmcPT> I currently use arround 40 offsets on a 12 turret disk
[23:17:16] <andypugh> EmcPT: I think you hurt his feelings...
[23:17:31] <EmcPT> sorry
[23:17:56] <andypugh> No, I was joking, it was a timeout, but interesting timing.
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[23:18:39] <MattyMatt> wow it's got late. gonna zzz
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[23:19:12] <EmcPT> Can you edit manually the tool table instead of using the tooltable editor?
[23:19:22] <EmcPT> so skip the checking?
[23:19:30] <EmcPT> to skip the checking?
[23:20:14] <andypugh> Yes
[23:21:04] <andypugh> But then you might just end up with a broken tooltable. I think each tool and pocket can only appear once.
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[23:22:12] <EmcPT> If that is correct, then this is not suitable for lathe users.
[23:23:30] <andypugh> I don't really understand, to be honest.
[23:24:00] <EmcPT> my question (my point of view), or how it is implemented?
[23:24:22] <andypugh> My assumption has been that you choose a tool by tool number, the toolchanger aligns the corresponding pocket, and then it applies the offset associated with the tool.
[23:24:54] <andypugh> But I might have that all back to front.
[23:27:36] <EmcPT> Imagine that you have a 2 position turret (it can only take two pockets). Now imagine that on pocket 1 you can have offset number 4 and number 5 at the same time (two cutting faces).
[23:28:12] <EmcPT> I do not see how can I do this, as there can only be one pocket for each tool number
[23:28:59] <EmcPT> on a standard lathe I would call T0104
[23:29:03] <EmcPT> and T0105
[23:29:38] <EmcPT> in linuxcnc I could call T1G43H4
[23:29:45] <EmcPT> and T1G43H5
[23:29:56] <EmcPT> BUT they cannot have both the pocket 1
[23:30:10] <EmcPT> (if they can't)
[23:30:43] <andypugh> I am not clear if the offset is associated with a T or an H.
[23:31:03] <EmcPT> but you are a lathe user, aren't you?
[23:31:04] <andypugh> In fact, I don't think what I just said makes sense.
[23:31:25] <EmcPT> or a single tool user?
[23:31:29] <andypugh> Yes, I use a lathe, but I have no pockets, so it's trivial.
[23:31:43] <mrsun> hehe dropped the base of the mill on the cnc computer today ...
[23:31:47] <mrsun> good job mrsun ...
[23:32:12] <andypugh> I have lots of tools, with their own offsets, but the pocket part is irrelevant.
[23:32:29] <mrsun> i guess only part that could get broken is the hd and they are so cheap its not a biggie :P
[23:32:55] <EmcPT> where is the tooltable file so that I can test, or its name so that I can find it?
[23:33:38] <andypugh> tool.tbl in the ~/emc2/configs/ folder
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[23:34:55] <EmcPT> check http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLhbNmXOUvU to see some tooling working. We build all the machine.
[23:36:54] <EmcPT> And I was thinking on getting linuxcnc a chance...
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[23:37:41] <andypugh> I know that people do do this, I just don't know how.
[23:38:16] <andypugh> It does seem possible that the offset numbers come from the "slot" not the tool.
[23:38:50] <andypugh> (I have been reading the G43 docs, and toolchanger description).
[23:39:53] <andypugh> If you have RANDOM_TOOLCHANGER then the tool table is used to find where the tool is in the carousel. But it seems that without that then only the tool-prepared pin is active, so a toolchanger has to work on tool number not pocket number.
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[23:47:53] <andypugh> EmcPT: I think I have managed to do what you want to do, by using "dummy" tools with a pocket of zero.
[23:48:55] <EmcPT> please inform
[23:48:57] <andypugh> The H number of G43 chooses offset by the "Tool" column, not the "Pocket" column.
[23:49:13] <andypugh> But the toolchanger gets it's number from T
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[23:50:12] <andypugh> So, you can't M6 T100 with a 40-tool carousel but you can M6 T1 G43 H100
[23:50:47] <EmcPT> But H100 will be for pocket for example 30
[23:51:13] <EmcPT> and if you want H99 for the same pocket you can't
[23:51:13] * JT-Shop had a nice road trip today
[23:51:13] <andypugh> As far as I can see the pocket is not used at all with a lathe.
[23:51:50] <EmcPT> ah. And the tool position is what? the number after the T?
[23:51:51] <andypugh> JT-Shop: Quick,explain how you use gang-tooling..
[23:51:59] <andypugh> EmcPT: Yes.
[23:52:18] <JT-Shop> I don't use it but danimal does on his lathe
[23:52:40] <JT-Shop> I don't see him on atm
[23:52:44] <andypugh> So, carousel 10 with offset 100 would be M6 T10 G43 H100
[23:53:12] <EmcPT> let me do some testing
[23:53:13] <JT-Shop> what are you guys doing?
[23:53:33] <andypugh> The pocket number is only used by swap-out toolchangers to track where a particular tool currently lives.
[23:53:49] <JT-Shop> yep random tool changers
[23:54:31] <andypugh> JT-Shop: Using more than one offset for a specific physical tool and toolchanger slot. For example the two sides of a parting blade.
[23:55:21] <JT-Shop> is it a random tool changer?
[23:55:39] <andypugh> No, that was the confusion.
[23:57:29] <JT-Shop> so if you want to use a different tool offset then G43 H- and no physical tool change is involved
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[23:57:50] <andypugh> EmcPT: This is definitely EMC2/LinuxCNC http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6I1oAPG0Ss
[23:58:14] <JT-Shop> what seems to be the issue?
[23:58:35] <andypugh> EmcPT: Be aware that the status box at the bottom shows the offset from T not from H
[23:58:54] <ds3> whoa...when did this become #linuxcnc?
[23:58:56] <andypugh> He wanted to set up different tools in the same pocket.
[23:59:27] <andypugh> Which seems the logical way to do it. But isn't the right way.